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MacRumors
Aug 20, 2003, 06:25 AM
Amazon lists (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00007EMD2/qid=1061357974/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/103-2136906-6522248?v=glance&s=pc) the 15" PowerBook with Superdrive as "This item is not stocked or has been discontinued".

Significance unknown.



Abdesai
Aug 20, 2003, 06:27 AM
It may not mean anything, but I sure hope that it's a sign that new pbooks are coming.

arn
Aug 20, 2003, 06:29 AM
I doubt amazon has any specific knowledge about the releases.

It may just reflect no-stock left at distributors.

arn

mvc
Aug 20, 2003, 06:36 AM
Hey Arn, why don't you just rename "page2 Rumors" > "Powerbook Rumors" and be done with it :p

chazmox
Aug 20, 2003, 07:07 AM
This seems to have happened alot with the 15 inch on Amazon in the last few months. It will be listed as discontinued and then later in stock and then back again...

jzieske
Aug 20, 2003, 07:15 AM
I like what Amazon says underneath saying is is out of Stock:

"The replacement for this item is Apple PowerBook Notebook 17" M8793LL/A (1.0-GHz PowerPC G4, 512 MB RAM, 60 GB Hard Drive, DVD-RW/CD-RW Drive)"

That is a big jump up for a replacement product.

For the record I don't think that this is a sure sign of updates in the immediate future.

AllenPSU
Aug 20, 2003, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by arn
I doubt amazon has any specific knowledge about the releases.

It may just reflect no-stock left at distributors.

arn

With all the speculation and rumors that are out there, it is hard to see the real signs. The product life indicator that MacRumors uses is golden. Use that with what the chip manufactures are actually making and you might have a true indicator of when things are about to change.

But we can still hope. It's just that I would hate to drop the cash and then see the update I've been waiting for. Not that the current product is bad mind you.

centauratlas
Aug 20, 2003, 07:27 AM
>Significance unknown.

I think the significance is that it will fuel speculation for another week. :-)

Eventually they'll release new PBs so at least with rumors every week sometime they will be correct!

centauratlas
Aug 20, 2003, 07:30 AM
Would be to have a monitor (e.g. with something like PageSentry from maxum (not maxim, btw)) that monitors Apple's web site at store.apple.com. Whenever it sees the "We'll be back shortly" message, it would notify you that something is up right then!

I am going to try it with PageSentry right now...

stockscalper
Aug 20, 2003, 07:31 AM
A dealer told me several weeks ago they were told by Apple that new laptops were coming. Still waiting and won't believe it until I see them.

brucku
Aug 20, 2003, 09:03 AM
Ok it's wed. So we're looking at friday?

Drinahn
Aug 20, 2003, 09:25 AM
Apple resellers in Australia appear to be claiming apple powerbook updates are close. My girlfriend placed an order with a apple store today, only to be told "Yes we'll take the order, but we won't process it and enter it into the system. There are 23 15" powerbooks in the state and 220 orders for them. So if we add your order you won't get it yet anyway. We'll put it through when the update comes in."

Now I have to say that is pretty crap, if she orders one now, stick it on the damned queue, let apple worry about the rest. You'll be happy to know however that the apple-store were referring verbally to macrumors.com as their source for information that updates were on way.

Oh the cyclic nature of it all....

cubist
Aug 20, 2003, 10:05 AM
Maybe the 17" is the replacement for the 15". Maybe there isn't going to be any 15" in the future.

For those who say the 17" is too big, the 15" is pretty big, too. The machines probably do address the same market. If the price came down on the 17" a lot, who wouldn't be satisfied?

mkaake
Aug 20, 2003, 10:14 AM
and did they mention that updates are due on tuesday???

guaranteed!!!

(as in, yesterday)

you guys just missed it...

:)

matt

NoPrideELF
Aug 20, 2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by cubist
Maybe the 17" is the replacement for the 15". Maybe there isn't going to be any 15" in the future.

For those who say the 17" is too big, the 15" is pretty big, too. The machines probably do address the same market. If the price came down on the 17" a lot, who wouldn't be satisfied?

They are not getting rid of the 15" it's the perfect size for average consumer and their pb sales would most definitely plummet if they did.

Mokona
Aug 20, 2003, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by brucku
Ok it's wed. So we're looking at friday?
Making a release on a friday is not a very good strategy (market-wise). Instead, leak details through rumour channels and then proceed on monday. (After it's all been hyped up, or down) This will act as a destabiliser on market prices and will result in a sudden jump on stock prices on monday, which in turn will result in a higher profit-margin etc.


Never mind my strange rambling, too much coffee.

Alexander
Aug 20, 2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by Mokona
Making a release on a friday is not a very good strategy (market-wise). Instead, leak details through rumour channels and then proceed on monday. (After it's all been hyped up, or down) This will act as a destabiliser on market prices and will result in a sudden jump on stock prices on monday, which in turn will result in a higher profit-margin etc.

And in other news, Apple starts day-trading its own stock...?

jaedreth
Aug 20, 2003, 12:58 PM
Now, Apple has learned from past mistakes on releasing major products on Friday. However, that was mainly software and operating systems. What hardware issues can't be addressed by a mail in repair?

I know rumors were last Tuesday. However, if we're gonna see anything before Paris, it would be this Friday or this Tuesday. More likely the later, though I'd prefer the former.

Jaedreth

IDTheft
Aug 20, 2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by cubist
Maybe the 17" is the replacement for the 15". Maybe there isn't going to be any 15" in the future.

For those who say the 17" is too big, the 15" is pretty big, too. The machines probably do address the same market. If the price came down on the 17" a lot, who wouldn't be satisfied?

Maybe Apple is getting rid the the notebook line of computers. His Jobness had a change of heart and decided that Apple should concentrate on desktops only.:rolleyes:

munki
Aug 20, 2003, 01:19 PM
I wouldn't give much creedence to Amazon's actions. My understanding is that they usually find out about stuff about the same time the rest of us do.

tizza
Aug 20, 2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Drinahn
Apple resellers in Australia appear to be claiming apple powerbook updates are close. My girlfriend placed an order with a apple store today, only to be told "Yes we'll take the order, but we won't process it and enter it into the system. There are 23 15" powerbooks in the state and 220 orders for them. So if we add your order you won't get it yet anyway. We'll put it through when the update comes in."

Now I have to say that is pretty crap, if she orders one now, stick it on the damned queue, let apple worry about the rest. You'll be happy to know however that the apple-store were referring verbally to macrumors.com as their source for information that updates were on way.

Oh the cyclic nature of it all....

Yes I have to say whenever I go into an AppleStore in Australia hoping to glean some more information from them it's obvious they've just been reading the same MacRumors posts as I have :p

cb911
Aug 20, 2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by Drinahn
Apple resellers in Australia appear to be claiming apple powerbook updates are close. My girlfriend placed an order with a apple store today, only to be told "Yes we'll take the order, but we won't process it and enter it into the system. There are 23 15" powerbooks in the state and 220 orders for them. So if we add your order you won't get it yet anyway. We'll put it through when the update comes in."

Now I have to say that is pretty crap, if she orders one now, stick it on the damned queue, let apple worry about the rest. You'll be happy to know however that the apple-store were referring verbally to macrumors.com as their source for information that updates were on way.

Oh the cyclic nature of it all....

Australian Apple re-sellers don't know what's goin on. just 3 weeks ago my local reseller didn't have any 15" PowerBooks, then 2 weeks ago they just got another shipment in, and it looks just like business as usual. There has to be updates soon though, and you can tell something is up by the number of sellers running out of stock. If the PowerBooks weren't going to be updated, Apple is just losing money by not not producing the current 15"s.

tizza
Aug 20, 2003, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by jaedreth
Now, Apple has learned from past mistakes on releasing major products on Friday. However, that was mainly software and operating systems. What hardware issues can't be addressed by a mail in repair?

I know rumors were last Tuesday. However, if we're gonna see anything before Paris, it would be this Friday or this Tuesday. More likely the later, though I'd prefer the former.

Jaedreth
well Tue is truly come and gone ... but I mean why not Tue next week or the week after that, or even a Wed ... heck I'll believe anything now!:rolleyes:

benoda
Aug 20, 2003, 07:58 PM
are we there yet? are we there yet? are we there yet?

Drinahn
Aug 20, 2003, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by Alexander
And in other news, Apple starts day-trading its own stock...?

NAh that wouldn't be insider trading at all. ;-D

sacrilicious
Aug 20, 2003, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by IDTheft
Maybe Apple is getting rid the the notebook line of computers. His Jobness had a change of heart and decided that Apple should concentrate on desktops only.:rolleyes:

No change of mind...we just misunderstood. It's the [last] year of the laptop.

jaedreth
Aug 20, 2003, 09:49 PM
Again, the market is going *towards* portables. Not away from.

Again, this is all Moto's fault. They just made revision G of their f*@#&%! chip last month. G. A, B, C, D, E, F, THEN #$*@#& G.

So we'll have Rev G PPC chips in a Rev A(well, by now it could be Rev C) Powerbook line.

Jaedreth

rainman::|:|
Aug 20, 2003, 11:57 PM
it's so much fun to watch you psychos go nuts when expecting a long-awaited update... and i mean that in the best way :) i too doubt the amazon message means anything other than "out of stock". which isn't new news...

pnw

ssamani
Aug 21, 2003, 10:38 AM
Right, we're looking at new PowerBooks being at 1.25 or 1.33 Ghz? But everyone says the 970 would be too hot. To quote from ArsTechnica:

"And if you consider the fact that the 970's power consumption at 1.2GHz is a mere 19W, it's almost certain that we'll see a future notebook from Apple based on the new chip. "

http://www.arstechnica.com/cpu/02q2/ppc970/ppc970-1.html

From this article, G4e (7450) Power dissipation @ 1Ghz: 30W.

So if the chip is smaller (more room for heat sink), produces and uses less power, why on earth can't we see the 1.2 - 1.4 G5's in PowerBooks and iMacs?

I no understand.... is it just a case of other stuff, e.g., bus speed, etc. Now the ArsTechnica coverage also says that the bus speed does not have to be 1/2 the processor speed, it could be 1/3 or 1/4, which would be perfectly fine for the PowerBook or iMac.

Also the more chips Apple orders from IBM, the cheaper they would become through volume ordering, surely. And the 1.2 - 1.4 G5's would be the cheapest of them

If anyone recalls, the G5 was supposed to debut at 1.4 - 1.8 rather than 1.6 - 2.0. Where did all the 1.4 chips go?

Can someone flame me for being stupid so that I will understand.

Zuckuss
Aug 21, 2003, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by ssamani

So if the chip is smaller (more room for heat sink), produces and uses less power, why on earth can't we see the 1.2 - 1.4 G5's in PowerBooks and iMacs?

If anyone recalls, the G5 was supposed to debut at 1.4 - 1.8 rather than 1.6 - 2.0. Where did all the 1.4 chips go?


Hot Damn I hope you're right! I'm not sure on the validity of your power consumption facts, but I sure hope so.

jaedreth
Aug 21, 2003, 12:45 PM
He is right on Power Consumption.

Why do you think dualie towers are so quiet and cool?

What apple is waiting on are 1) Motherboards for PowerBook G5's, and 2) System Controllers for PowerBook G5's. Now keep in mind, the system controller will be hotter than the actual processors in this case.

I don't know when to expect System Controllers for the G5 PB. That is likely to be a tightly guarded secret by Apple and IBM.

However, I do happen to know we won't see the logic boards until January. Which means, we might see them by the end of Jan, or just announced in January, shipping Feb or March.

That's why these PB's will be MOTO not IBM. Not heat issues.

Jaedreth

AllenPSU
Aug 21, 2003, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by jaedreth
He is right on Power Consumption.

Why do you think dualie towers are so quiet and cool?

What apple is waiting on are 1) Motherboards for PowerBook G5's, and 2) System Controllers for PowerBook G5's. Now keep in mind, the system controller will be hotter than the actual processors in this case.

I don't know when to expect System Controllers for the G5 PB. That is likely to be a tightly guarded secret by Apple and IBM.

However, I do happen to know we won't see the logic boards until January. Which means, we might see them by the end of Jan, or just announced in January, shipping Feb or March.

That's why these PB's will be MOTO not IBM. Not heat issues.

Jaedreth

Do you know what a 1.8 GHz G5 draws in power? If its as high as the original G4 it won't be ideal for a laptop. I thought I read that IBM was working on a low power G5 that was due Q1-2004.

jaedreth
Aug 21, 2003, 12:59 PM
The 1.8 is only marginally faster than the 1.4, and the consumption on the 1.4 is under 20W (sorry, forgot the exact figure guys, haven't woken up yet).

So the 1.8 is gonna be a bit less than the G4 1Ghz.

What is due later (not necessarily Q1) is a *die shrink*.

Die shrinks always mean less wattage.

It's not an underpowered processor. It's minaturized. There is a difference.

At this point, they don't even need to make underpowered G5 processors for PB and iMac because they can just use lower MHz and be just fine. 1.4 low end, 1.8 on high end.

I could see 12" powerbooks having 1GHz G5, 15" have 1.4 GHz G5, and 17" having 1.8 GHz G5 in the revision after this one, nee
March or so.

Jaedreth

lucidfuse
Aug 21, 2003, 02:17 PM
The Apple Store in Cambridge, MA no longer has a 15 inch powerbook on display.

freundt
Aug 21, 2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by lucidfuse
The Apple Store in Cambridge, MA no longer has a 15 inch powerbook on display.

No freakin' wonder.. they probably removed them out of shame.. Couldn't in good conscious sell such an old, outdated notebook for over 2K.

grr...

Ok, I give it till tomorrow... then I buy a voodoo.

_f

ssamani
Aug 21, 2003, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by jaedreth
The 1.8 is only marginally faster than the 1.4, and the consumption on the 1.4 is under 20W (sorry, forgot the exact figure guys, haven't woken up yet).

So the 1.8 is gonna be a bit less than the G4 1Ghz.


according to the ArsTechnica article the 1.8 G5 consumption is 92W (substantially more than the 1Ghz G4's 30W). I am intrigued as to how the 1.2 can only be 19W as ArsTechnica claims. But if it is true, who is going to object to "only"1.4Ghz G5's in a PowerBook...

I can imagine they are waiting until they have PowerMac's shipping before they release the PowerBook, but everyone assumes the PowerBooks and iMacs will be G4 cos of heat and power. What have I missed, are ArsTechnica's figure wrong?

Sanj

AllenPSU
Aug 21, 2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by lucidfuse
The Apple Store in Cambridge, MA no longer has a 15 inch powerbook on display.

Wow, when was the last time you were there? I thought they had a bunch about a week ago.

AllenPSU
Aug 21, 2003, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by jaedreth
The 1.8 is only marginally faster than the 1.4, and the consumption on the 1.4 is under 20W (sorry, forgot the exact figure guys, haven't woken up yet).

What is due later (not necessarily Q1) is a *die shrink*.

Die shrinks always mean less wattage.

It's not an underpowered processor. It's minaturized. There is a difference.


Don't know where you got the "underpowered" phrase from, but you're saying the bottom line is the G5 has a low enough power consumption to work in a laptop between 1.6 and 1.8 GHz. Thats great.

That is significantly better than previous new generation chip releases. I am sure that someone is looking at the lower power G5s for future porable use.

I believe IBM stated that they were having problems with the equipment at the Fishkill plant which would produce the smaller die G5's. I will have to go back and check the stuff I get from IBM. I do know that Fishkill lost power during the blackout and that will slow things up a bit. (At least a few days and maybe even longer if they lost their purifiers.)

AllenPSU
Aug 21, 2003, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by jaedreth
The 1.8 is only marginally faster than the 1.4, and the consumption on the 1.4 is under 20W (sorry, forgot the exact figure guys, haven't woken up yet).

Just found the IBM's published power levels on the G5:

1.8 GHz @ 1.3 Volts = 43 Watts

That is too high for a portable

1.1 GHz @ 1.1 Voltes = 19 Watts
(This is below IBM's target frequencies)

Still a little high but you can make it work.

These are based on the .13 uM CMOS technology with their copper interconnects.

From these specification I don't see a G5 running above 1GHz in a laptop and probably won't see one until the Fishkill plant is up and running.

For those of you who really need the specs:
http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A1387A29AC1C2AE087256C5200611780

tizza
Aug 21, 2003, 08:28 PM
C'mon - where's the new powerbook rumor thread for the 21st?? :D

Zwiggles
Aug 21, 2003, 09:14 PM
Could someone please let me know what they think might happen with the pricing of the 15". Will the 1.0GHz drop down close to the price of the current 867MHz, and the 1.25 down to the just above the 1.0?

Could some pro provide some insight? What happened after the last update?

Cheers

Phil Of Mac
Aug 21, 2003, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by ssamani
"And if you consider the fact that the 970's power consumption at 1.2GHz is a mere 19W, it's almost certain that we'll see a future notebook from Apple based on the new chip. "

So if the chip is smaller (more room for heat sink), produces and uses less power, why on earth can't we see the 1.2 - 1.4 G5's in PowerBooks and iMacs?


Okay. The reason we know there will be no G5 PowerBook for "quite awhile" is that Greg Joswiak (who one Mac site dubbed "Greg the Hardware Bunny", for what it's worth) said so. However, I have been thinking of the reasons why, and I'll share them with you.

In order to use a completely different processor, you need to update and redesign the system architecture. While it's possible to cut corners and hack a new processor in (Apple did this with the original PowerBook G3, which was a hacked PowerBook 3400), it's a sub-optimal thing to do. The hacked PowerBook G3 didn't sell, and was made out of desparation in 1997, when Apple was dying. Now that Apple's in better shape, Steve, being the artist he is, doesn't want to throw together a hack.

That said, Apple could have had a PB G5 out by now. It would have been low frequency (but higher than the G4). However, they would have designed an entire system architecture to do that. Fair enough, right?

Okay, so they release it. Now they have to redo the whole thing AGAIN when IBM jumps to 90 nm (at which point you can put faster G5's in the laptops). Faster processor speeds mandate faster bus speeds, which mandate yet a faster chipset and such. In the meantime, there will be increasing HyperTransport integration and other such things that'll make it a pain to simply design the same computer twice.

And what does Apple gain, by releasing PowerBooks right now that are G5's but relatively slow G5's? They saturate the market with relatively crappy G5's, so when the good G5's come out later, no one buys them, and Apple has just wasted millions to design the same thing a second time.

Apple's going to design the PowerBook G5 once, and they're going to do it right, with the 90nm processor. When they do, they'll make millions. Billions! While at the same time living out their dual personality as both a business (which won't do stupid things and lose money) and a team of artists (who want their products to be pretty good.)

I suspect that when Apple found that a PowerBook G5 would run 1 GHz, 1.2 at the most, the entire PowerBook team threw their hands up and said "why bother". Especially when 90 nm is going to give them a much better chance.

In an unrelated note, never trust analysts. If they really knew what they were talking about, they'd be making their fortunes in the business, instead of being analysts.

gunnmjk
Aug 21, 2003, 11:08 PM
Steve Jobs said that THIS was the year of the powerbook. What he meant, was that this was the year of THESE powerbooks. He wasn't planning on releasing any new ones until next year =P

Phil Of Mac
Aug 21, 2003, 11:33 PM
Steve Jobs is secretly dyslexic. He meant "Laptop of the year", not "year of the laptop".

bradz_id
Aug 22, 2003, 04:16 AM
The PowerPC 7450 does consume a lot of power but it is an old model of the G4. The New PowerPC 7457 consumes less than 10W at 1GHz. The 7457 is the biggest upgrade the G4's have had because not only has it had a die shrink from 180 to 130 nm, it is also uses SOI technology and copper interconnects as opposed to CMOS and aluminium interconnects. This is a really good G4. The only disadvantage is the Frontside Bus speed which sux!

Sun Baked
Aug 22, 2003, 06:38 AM
Originally posted by jaedreth
Again, the market is going *towards* portables. Not away from.

Again, this is all Moto's fault. They just made revision G of their f*@#&%! chip last month. G. A, B, C, D, E, F, THEN #$*@#& G.

So we'll have Rev G PPC chips in a Rev A(well, by now it could be Rev C) Powerbook line.

Jaedreth Not quite that bad. :p

That was the 7450 that seemed to nail every letter from A to G.

We've moved onto the 7455. :rolleyes:
7450, Vger 1.0 0x80000100 (ID Code: 0X0000001D)
1.1 0x80000101
1.2 0x80000102
2.0 0x80000200 (ID Code: 0X1000001D)
2.02 0x80000200
2.03 0x80000200
2.04 0x80000200
2.1 0x80000201
7451, Vger 2.3 0x80000203 (ID Code: 0X0000001D)
7441, Vger 2.1 0x80000201 (ID Code: 0X0000001D)
2.2 0x80000202
2.3 0x80000203
7445/7455, Apollo 6 2.1 0x80010201 (ID Code: 0X0000001D)
3.3 0x80010303
3.4 0x80010304
7457, Apollo 7 1.0 0x80020100 (ID Code: 0X0000001D)
1.1 0x80020101[edit - the tabs were a PIA, was from the update PPC PVR Register Settings pdf]