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MacRumors
Sep 21, 2007, 06:18 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

After seeding (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/09/20/apple-updates-mac-os-x-10-5-leopard-to-9a528d/) Leopard 9A528d just yesterday, Apple has released 9A559 to ADC members tonight. Yesterday's update appears to have been primarily testing Leopard's Software Update mechanism.

The 6.55GB download lists only two known issues for Leopard. The two issues described involve upgrading from Tiger to Leopard on PowerPC systems in certain scenarios, and HP printer drivers.

As mentioned yesterday (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/09/20/apple-updates-mac-os-x-10-5-leopard-to-9a528d/), Apple will need to finalize Leopard soon in order to meet their October shipping deadline. Apple had originally slated Leopard for earlier this year, but announced in April (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/04/12/apple-delays-leopard-release/) that it would be delayed until October.

Apple has detailed (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/) many of the features of Leopard on their website (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/).


Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/09/21/apple-seeds-mac-os-x-10-5-leopard-9a559/)



psychofreak
Sep 21, 2007, 06:19 PM
I can't wait...I haven't even used a beta, I'm just getting desperate...

chr1s60
Sep 21, 2007, 06:20 PM
Am I the only one starting to think that Leopard is going to be pushed back again??? I know Apple still has a little bit of time, but I am starting to think it might not be released til November or even early next year.

Srestrepo
Sep 21, 2007, 06:21 PM
If I remember correctly. Tiger was seeded like 3 times in a week before it went Gold Master. this is 2. Progress?

Rocketman
Sep 21, 2007, 06:21 PM
My only question is if Leopard will run on a clamshell dual display Apple Tablet Not Nano. Full iPhone interface options. Full Leopard capabilities including multi-homing. HD.

Rocketman

stoid
Sep 21, 2007, 06:23 PM
RC1 anyone?

I smell a Gold Master by the end of next week! :D

Oirectine
Sep 21, 2007, 06:24 PM
Kudos to the guy in the last thread who insisted this update was on the way. I'm too lazy to look up your name, but you know who you are! :)

synth3tik
Sep 21, 2007, 06:25 PM
I just want it now. With some of the new features in Leopard I will be able to stop usng Win XP at work which will be a real treat..

Sbrocket
Sep 21, 2007, 06:27 PM
Kudos to the guy in the last thread who insisted this update was on the way. I'm too lazy to look up your name, but you know who you are! :)

It may have been a little more than instinct... ;)

CalBoy
Sep 21, 2007, 06:35 PM
Hopefully it's ready by October...the Vista fanboys will start trolling here like crazy if it's not:eek:

I'm sure we'll have Leopard ready by the 23rd...hey, that's Mol Day(yes, I remember Chemistry:p). The only thing I care about is a good .1 or .2 release so I can go buy it around December.

zwida
Sep 21, 2007, 06:37 PM
My only question is if Leopard will run on a clamshell dual display Apple Tablet Not Nano. Full iPhone interface options. Full Leopard capabilities including multi-homing. HD.

That's a sexxxxy sounding machine. I'll take two.

Mac OS X Ocelot
Sep 21, 2007, 06:40 PM
Hopefully it's ready by October...the Vista fanboys will start trolling here like crazy if it's not:eek:


To brag about how their OS was delayed by a decade in comparison?

shawnce
Sep 21, 2007, 06:43 PM
Am I the only one starting to think that Leopard is going to be pushed back again??? I know Apple still has a little bit of time, but I am starting to think it might not be released til November or even early next year.

Why do you think that? It is common for Apple to release a developer build about a month before the boxed product is released ... with that "last" developer build basically matching what goes in the box. Also sometimes we will get a little burst of builds near they end as the close out show stoppers that are found.

CalBoy
Sep 21, 2007, 06:44 PM
To brag about how their OS was delayed by a decade in comparison?

Remember, they are fanboys;) To be fair though, it wasn't a full decade...sure, six or seven years, but not a decade:p

shawnce
Sep 21, 2007, 06:44 PM
If I remember correctly. Tiger was seeded like 3 times in a week before it went Gold Master. this is 2. Progress?

Likely shouldn't count the last update... it was primarily a test of the software update system. They did this once before with Leopard... release a software update followed a few days later by a much later build.

alljunks
Sep 21, 2007, 06:48 PM
1 step closer for releaseing!!!!!

cbetta
Sep 21, 2007, 06:51 PM
So, is this new version also available through the updater, or do I nee to download the big-ass DMG?

abrooks
Sep 21, 2007, 06:51 PM
If I remember correctly. Tiger was seeded like 3 times in a week before it went Gold Master. this is 2. Progress?

Previous update was incredibly minor, only updated the Dictionary.app.

mattbray
Sep 21, 2007, 06:54 PM
Pssh... Let's hope it comes soon

treblah
Sep 21, 2007, 06:56 PM
Remember, they are fanboys;) To be fair though, it wasn't a full decade...sure, six or seven years, but not a decade:p

OffT: XP was only released 6 years ago…

OnT: Come hell or highwater Leopard will be released in Oct.

Treat 10.5.0 a paid beta if you've never seen how awesome Apple's 10.x.0's are. Now you can't say you weren't warned.

cypherpunks
Sep 21, 2007, 06:57 PM
I have 9A528d and it's not showing up in Software Update.

It's a new build. Go grab it off the Leopard Dev Center website. (And if you don't have access to the Leopard Dev Center, you shouldn't be running it!)

pixlnet
Sep 21, 2007, 06:59 PM
theyve got over a month left of time to work out the kinks. nobody said itll ship in october, they just said it will be ready in october. part of me thinks itll be in apple stores in late october though. lets hope! leopard server looks extremely appealing.

CalBoy
Sep 21, 2007, 07:03 PM
OffT: XP was only released 6 years ago…
Didn't Microsoft begin Vista's development once XP was released? Either way, the point is, Apple won't delay Leopard anymore; it's time has come.

Treat 10.5.0 a paid beta if you've never seen how awesome Apple's 10.x.0's are. Now you can't say you weren't warned.

Which is why I plan on buying in December.

mrkramer
Sep 21, 2007, 07:04 PM
nobody said itll ship in october, they just said it will be ready in october. part of me thinks itll be in apple stores in late october though. lets hope! leopard server looks extremely appealing.

Apple did say that it was shipping in October

FJ218700
Sep 21, 2007, 07:05 PM
if PPC upgrade compatibility takes until 10.5.1, that's fine. They really must get Leopard for Intels out by the 31st though.

ghall
Sep 21, 2007, 07:06 PM
This is starting to look good. Damn, I can't wait!

mrkramer
Sep 21, 2007, 07:07 PM
if PPC upgrade compatibility takes until 10.5.1, that's fine. They really must get Leopard for Intels out by the 31st (Oct) though.

It will be all on one disk so they both have to be out at the same time.

Peace
Sep 21, 2007, 07:11 PM
This is a RC..The GM (M67 or M69)has been done.Developers should see it wihin 2 weeks and announcement and/or timer on Apple's homepage on or before Oct. 5th.

On shelves 10/18


just a guess mind you.;)

cbetta
Sep 21, 2007, 07:11 PM
OffT: XP was only released 6 years ago…

Not completely right. Vista or Longhorn or a similar architecture has been on the roadmaps of MS since the unstable win98 under various names. 2000 and XP have simply been upgrades build on the NT architecture that proved to be more viable at those times. Now, almost 10 years later, they finally still didn't release the system they planned as they are still missing some vital architectural features that have been on the roadmap for years.

10th Wonder
Sep 21, 2007, 07:23 PM
No, it should be ready out the box for Intel Macs and PPC macs. That would disappoint alot of people since there is still alot of people who do use PPC still. Like myself included and I would be mad if they made me wait until 10.5.xx somthing before I can get Leopard!

Thataboy
Sep 21, 2007, 07:24 PM
Lordy please let them announce the release date and a Leopard up to date program, so I can finally BUY A NEW IMAC already :)

FJ218700
Sep 21, 2007, 07:29 PM
No, it should be ready out the box for Intel Macs and PPC macs. That would disappoint alot of people since there is still alot of people who do use PPC still. Like myself included and I would be mad if they made me wait until 10.5.xx somthing before I can get Leopard!

I myself have about 10 PPCs, 3 of will will be getting Leopard (no Intel machines). But they made a promise for Oct, and must get it out, even if for Intels only.

But yeah, as someone else said, they need one DVD for both platforms,u nless it is a network upgrade (unlikely)

sblasl
Sep 21, 2007, 07:31 PM
Available on October 26, 2007.

For those who remember KZEW in the DFW area, I think the month was known as "Rocktober".:cool:

twoodcc
Sep 21, 2007, 07:34 PM
If I remember correctly. Tiger was seeded like 3 times in a week before it went Gold Master. this is 2. Progress?

well i hope you are correct. we need it to go gold real quick

G4DP
Sep 21, 2007, 07:35 PM
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Are we all getting a free copy of Cars or something!

Cheers Steve!

That must be a biatch to download.

justflie
Sep 21, 2007, 07:35 PM
I'm looking forward to the release and the great speed increases I'll see on my Intel machine. If the traffic lights stay the same bright color, I think I'll be switching to graphite...

!¡ V ¡!
Sep 21, 2007, 07:38 PM
If released in the 2nd half of October, this would be a quadruple treat for me. :)

shawnce
Sep 21, 2007, 07:40 PM
That must be a biatch to download. Goes nicely at ~3.0 megabytes a second. =P

(taking longer to install then it did to download)

!¡ V ¡!
Sep 21, 2007, 07:41 PM
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Are we all getting a free copy of Cars or something!

Cheers Steve!

That must be a biatch to download.

There is a good possibilities of it being released on a DVD±DL as it has the PPC and Intel versions on one. The release of OS 10.5 would be the entry to the Intel platform for myself. :)

the vj
Sep 21, 2007, 07:42 PM
I can't wait...I haven't even used a beta, I'm just getting desperate...


And you are teh one who si gonna do the actual beta testing.


As I am an experienced/smart buyer, I will wait a few months until the revision comes out. I am not going to install the new OS to face a bunch of bugs and get frustrate as every one else do when they go all "desperate" to get the first realease of anything.

I will wait a bit still.

I see everybody who is running Vista (sorry, I'm just making a point) desperate. I had a friend the other day frustrate it because he just couldn't install some elements for his 3D software, MS was asking him for a bunch of things.

Of course Apple is way beyond that but again... I will wait.

Wayfarer
Sep 21, 2007, 07:43 PM
The anticipation is killing me. I wish I knew some more info about this build. :rolleyes:

RichardI
Sep 21, 2007, 07:48 PM
HP printer drivers? Maybe I will have a non-postcript driver for my non-postscript HP Laserjet 6P!:D

Rich :cool:

Peace
Sep 21, 2007, 07:50 PM
HP printer drivers? Maybe I will have a non-postcript driver for my non-postscript HP Laserjet 6P!:D

Rich :cool:

The printer "problem" really isn't a problem.

The driver will show up as an update when you click on update.:)

bigandy
Sep 21, 2007, 08:03 PM
i'm starting to get excited about leopard, finally... but i'm also seeing it as a stop gap to enjoy until the big things happen on Nov 9 :D

chrisdazzo
Sep 21, 2007, 08:05 PM
i'm starting to get excited about leopard, finally... but i'm also seeing it as a stop gap to enjoy until the big things happen on Nov 9 :D
November 9th? Did I miss something?

Peace
Sep 21, 2007, 08:06 PM
November 9th? Did I miss something?

Yes you did.

The iPhone goes on sale in Europe on that date.

chrisdazzo
Sep 21, 2007, 08:09 PM
Yes you did.

The iPhone goes on sale in Europe on that date.
Oh, wow. Though I live in the middle of America, I should've known that. :p I wonder if it'll have the same success as it did here.

thejadedmonkey
Sep 21, 2007, 08:10 PM
This is a RC..The GM (M67 or M69)has been done.Developers should see it wihin 2 weeks and announcement and/or timer on Apple's homepage on or before Oct. 5th.

On shelves 10/18


just a guess mind you.;)
I'm going to request that day off.

HP printer drivers? Maybe I will have a non-postcript driver for my non-postscript HP Laserjet 6P!:D

Rich :cool:
Ooh, I have that printer.. I would be shocked if Apple suddenly started supporting such an old piece of equipment.

Yes you did.

The iPhone goes on sale in Europe on that date.
Whoa there, Apple is really moving fast now!

andiwm2003
Sep 21, 2007, 08:12 PM
what about the top secret features of leopard? what about the urgently needed overhaul of .mac that i hoped to come with leopard? what about ilife and iwork functions in leopard? seems there are none. if there are it's about time to strart testing them. unless they delay it again.

chrisdazzo
Sep 21, 2007, 08:20 PM
Gasp! I completely forgot that Apple had some secret features of Leopard that they weren't going to tell anyone about until release day... I wonder what those could be. On the other hand, I think it would be pretty cool (and sort of amusing) to see a Leopard timer on the Apple frontpage. :D

Thertel88
Sep 21, 2007, 08:21 PM
whats gold master?

ortuno2k
Sep 21, 2007, 08:22 PM
I don't know if Leopard will be stable enough to use right away after it's released, at least I'm a bit skeptical. I may wait 'till a .1 or .2 release.

nato64
Sep 21, 2007, 08:23 PM
if PPC upgrade compatibility takes until 10.5.1, that's fine. They really must get Leopard for Intels out by the 31st though.

Let me guess, you have an Intel Mac.

Some people are still on PPC Macs, such as myself. If Apple ignored them do you know how much of an uproar there would be? Plus, Apple promised that Leopard would be universal.

Mr. Dee
Sep 21, 2007, 08:24 PM
Not completely right. Vista or Longhorn or a similar architecture has been on the roadmaps of MS since the unstable win98 under various names. 2000 and XP have simply been upgrades build on the NT architecture that proved to be more viable at those times. Now, almost 10 years later, they finally still didn't release the system they planned as they are still missing some vital architectural features that have been on the roadmap for years.

The technology you are referring to is Cairo. And it did come to fruition in products such as Windows Desktop Search and Windows Vista's built in Instant Search. Cairo was promised for Windows NT 4, but the architecture could not support it at the time. Also remember, when Apple was searching for a new OS to replace Classic, NT was put on the table as an option, but they chose NeXT Step instead. The only thing missing from Vista that was originally planned was WinFS, and its a completely different thing than the traditional search technologies we have today in OS X (Spotlight) and Vista's (Instant Search). WinFS focused on visualizing data in a more natural relevant way where the results are always exact and correct when you query the system. This is something Apple, Microsoft nor Google has delivered yet. Basically, the race is still on. Oh, and that vital part is so over exaggerated.

chrisdazzo
Sep 21, 2007, 08:25 PM
whats gold master?
It basically means Leopard is ready to copy, print, ship, etc.

nato64
Sep 21, 2007, 08:30 PM
what about the top secret features of leopard? what about the urgently needed overhaul of .mac that i hoped to come with leopard? what about ilife and iwork functions in leopard? seems there are none. if there are it's about time to strart testing them. unless they delay it again.

I'm pretty sure the 'Top Secret' features were a completely new finder, new dock, new desktop features, and QuickLook (it was seeded to devs but never announced). When it comes to .Mac, the 'overhaul' was 10GB of storage, Web Gallery (awesome feature) and Leopard's "Back to my Mac" which is insanely cool. As for iLife and iWork, they just got huge updates so I'm not sure what the heck you expect.

mklos
Sep 21, 2007, 08:32 PM
whats gold master?

Golden Master is the "master" copy used at the CD/DVD publishing plant to make Leopard for the customer. Once it goes golden master, no changes can be made to it. It will have to wait until 10.5.1.

Release Candidate 1 (RC1) is a potential final beta (build release) release that is distributed to testers as a final once over to see any issues occur. If needed, they will fix those issues as quickly as possibly and distribute Release Candidate 2 (RC2). If there's no issues with either RC1 or RC2 that may be considered golden master, but isn't always the case.

I'm pretty confident that Leopard will be released on October 31st. Yes, its not a Tuesday, but Tiger didn't ship on a Tuesday either. I believe it was shipped on a Friday.

mklos
Sep 21, 2007, 08:41 PM
I don't know if Leopard will be stable enough to use right away after it's released, at least I'm a bit skeptical. I may wait 'till a .1 or .2 release.


I love how people keep saying this yet they'll go out and get it anyways. If its not stable enough then Apple won't release it. This isn't Microsoft here.....

projectle
Sep 21, 2007, 08:42 PM
OffT: XP was only released 6 years ago…

OnT: Come hell or highwater Leopard will be released in Oct.

Treat 10.5.0 a paid beta if you've never seen how awesome Apple's 10.x.0's are. Now you can't say you weren't warned.

I can say that I was never warned...
Wait...

*******!

Thertel88
Sep 21, 2007, 08:47 PM
i said tuesday october 31st because i was told that was the date, they might have meant wednesday or could have seen a wrong date

chrisdazzo
Sep 21, 2007, 08:50 PM
i said tuesday october 31st because i was told that was the date, they might have meant wednesday or could have seen a wrong date
I'm hoping anything but the last week of October. That's too far away...

mklos
Sep 21, 2007, 08:50 PM
Let me guess, you have an Intel Mac.

Some people are still on PPC Macs, such as myself. If Apple ignored them do you know how much of an uproar there would be? Plus, Apple promised that Leopard would be universal.

Leopard is Universal, hence the large build sizes 6GB+. This is Apple's first major OS release that deals with the Intel Macs. Yes, Tiger has an Intel version, but no major changes except it being operational with Intel CPU's.

I assume there are many "under the hood" optimizations to make the Intel Macs run better. Since the future for Apple is Intel Macs, it only makes sense to further optimize it Intel CPU's. This doesn't mean it won't run on PPC Macs or that it will run like crap, but it just didn't get as much emphasis. This will eventually become a trend for all developers, not just Apple. It will take a while just like it did with Apple and developers to slowly dwindle down OS 9 (Classic) support, but it will eventually happen. You've already seen the start with Adobe's new Creative Suite being Intel Mac only and I thought I remember seeing that Microsoft Office 2008 for Mac will be Intel only as well. I could be wrong about that though.

FJ218700
Sep 21, 2007, 08:51 PM
Let me guess, you have an Intel Mac.

Some people are still on PPC Macs, such as myself. If Apple ignored them do you know how much of an uproar there would be? Plus, Apple promised that Leopard would be universal.

no, I don't have an intel mac

I'm not sayinganyhting about it not being universal. All I'm saying is that if it takes until 10.5.1 to get the PPCs stable, that's better than delaying everything further.

mklos
Sep 21, 2007, 08:52 PM
I'm hoping anything but the last week of October. That's too far away...

Its far too late for it to be in the early part of October. There isn't even a golden master determined yet. Its going to be just like the iPhone. Apple will continue to promise an October shipping date and it will be the last possible day in October.

Peace
Sep 21, 2007, 08:53 PM
no, I don't have an intel mac

I'm not sayinganyhting about it not being universal. All I'm saying is that if it takes until 10.5.1 to get the PPCs supported, that's better than delaying everything further.

Leopard already supports PPC.Like the other poster said it's in a Universal Binary format.

Fluffymuff
Sep 21, 2007, 08:56 PM
whats gold master?
Gold is a chemical element and a highly sought-after precious metal which, for many centuries, has been used as money and in jewelery.

However, there's no need to call me "master." At least not here. Otherwise, I may have to spank you in front of everyone.

FJ218700
Sep 21, 2007, 08:58 PM
Leopard already supports PPC.Like the other poster said it's in a Universal Binary format.

Yes, I know,

I meant "stable" not "supported".

I'll drop it.

p2rjade
Sep 21, 2007, 09:00 PM
Leopard already supports PPC.Like the other poster said it's in a Universal Binary format.

As said in the main article, the PPC has "some" issues with upgrading, does not mean it won't work. Could be a minor fix. I can imagine if I had a PPC mac, I would be concerned, but I feel confidant Leopard will come out in the month of October, if that is the last day of oct like the iPhone, or mid Month, I still think it will be "on-time."
We would of heard something by now from Apple if they were going to delay it more.

bluedoggiant
Sep 21, 2007, 09:02 PM
i sure hope this build is gold master and it ships by mid october

FJ218700
Sep 21, 2007, 09:04 PM
As said in the main article, the PPC has "some" issues with upgrading, does not mean it won't work. Could be a minor fix. I can imagine if I had a PPC mac, I would be concerned, but I feel confidant Leopard will come out in the month of October, if that is the last day of oct like the iPhone, or mid Month, I still think it will be "on-time."


yeah, that was my concern

bluedoggiant
Sep 21, 2007, 09:06 PM
yeah, that was my concern

leopard will be released october 24th



.... my predictions

Luap
Sep 21, 2007, 09:07 PM
i sure hope this build is gold master and it ships by mid october

It wont be GM.. I would expect at least a couple more builds/beta's yet.

bluedoggiant
Sep 21, 2007, 09:08 PM
It wont be GM.. I would expect at least a couple more builds/beta's yet.

there was no point in making me feel bad, and i dont think there'll be more builds maybe one

mklos
Sep 21, 2007, 09:10 PM
I don't know why people upgrade anyways. Most of the time it only causes issues either immediately or down the road. Of course there is the few that will say I never have issues.

I guarantee you that the people that come in here and complain after installing Leopard will say they did an upgrade. Windows is the same way. I don't even know why Microsoft and Apple even make it an option. Its the perfect time IMO to start fresh. Cleans out all of the crap you didn't know you had and its the best way IMO to use a new OS.

Luap
Sep 21, 2007, 09:15 PM
there was no point in making me feel bad, and i dont think there'll be more builds maybe one

Im not trying to make anyone feel bad. Just telling it like it is :)
This is why there will be more builds yet before it goes GM:

Known Issues
- Archive installs from Tiger to Leopard sometimes will not succeed on Power PC systems if you try to preserve user settings. Please perform an upgrade install or clean install or opt out of preserving user settings to work around this. Intel systems are unaffected.
- If you have HP printers connected to your system or are upgrading from a Tiger system with HP printers already configured, please perform a custom install and de-select the HP printer drivers in the installer. The HP printer drivers will be delivered post-install via Software Update.

cbetta
Sep 21, 2007, 09:19 PM
no, I don't have an intel mac

I'm not sayinganyhting about it not being universal. All I'm saying is that if it takes until 10.5.1 to get the PPCs stable, that's better than delaying everything further.

Why do people think that the switch from Tiger to Leopard will break just as much as it does from XP to Vista?

Leopard is still a OS 10 build, meaning that it is for most part a simple improvement on Tiger. OS 10 worked fine on PPC for years so why wouldn't it in Leopard? Yes there are optimizations for Intel and a whole ******** of big new features that operate at a higher lever, but that will seriously not have any effect on how existing things will run on a PPC.

PS: I have been testing Leopard on 2 Macbooks and a Mac Mini G4 for a while now, and basically haven't seen any big bugs for about 3 weeks. Most of those bugs were cross platform issues, which affected both Intel and PPC.

kitki83
Sep 21, 2007, 09:22 PM
Why cant apple FIX THE USB problems in 10.4.10

I been using a cheap 1.1 hub for my backing up, you know how horrible that is backing up 300gigs of my files.


Will there be student discount with purchase of this or bundle offer with Mac Os X, Ilife, and iwork?

mklos
Sep 21, 2007, 09:24 PM
Why cant apple FIX THE USB problems in 10.4.10

I been using a cheap 1.1 hub for my backing up, you know how horrible that is backing up 300gigs of my files.


Will there be student discount with purchase of this or bundle offer with Mac Os X, Ilife, and iwork?

USB issues???? I'm not following you problem there except you're using a cheap USB 1.1 hub. Just buy a damn USB 2.0 hub.

Typically Apple does an education discount of $69 for an OS. Seriously doubt you'll see any bundles for iLife, iWork, .mac, and Leopard. At least this has never been done in the past.

FJ218700
Sep 21, 2007, 09:25 PM
Why do people think that the switch from Tiger to Leopard will break just as much as it does from XP to Vista?

Leopard is still a OS 10 build, meaning that it is for most part a simple improvement on Tiger. OS 10 worked fine on PPC for years so why wouldn't it in Leopard? Yes there are optimizations for Intel and a whole ******** of big new features that operate at a higher lever, but that will seriously not have any effect on how existing things will run on a PPC.


yes, but aren't they dropping support for < 800 MHz G4's?

kitki83
Sep 21, 2007, 09:28 PM
USB issues???? I'm not following you problem there except you're using a cheap USB 1.1 hub. Just buy a damn USB 2.0 hub.

Typically Apple does an education discount of $69 for an OS. Seriously doubt you'll see any bundles for iLife, iWork, .mac, and Leopard. At least this has never been done in the past.

No, I have all the USB ports empty, but since the patch 10.4.10 it caused USB HD/memory sticks not to read unless connected to USB hub. Dont want USB 2.0 bec I have no need. Still the hacks I done to fix it have not worked.

mklos
Sep 21, 2007, 09:35 PM
yes, but aren't they dropping support for < 800 MHz G4's?

I'm pretty sure with the most recent builds they are recommending you have an 800 MHz G4 or later. I had the WWDC '07 release installed on a 450 MHz G4 Cube and it ran great so I think it will run just fine on any G4 based system and the 800/900 MHz G3 systems with the proper amount of RAM.

FJ218700
Sep 21, 2007, 09:38 PM
I'm pretty sure with the most recent builds they are recommending you have an 800 MHz G4 or later. I had the WWDC '07 release installed on a 450 MHz G4 Cube and it ran great so I think it will run just fine on any G4 based system and the 800/900 MHz G3 systems with the proper amount of RAM.

sweet, maybe the 500 Ti will see it after all

TurboSC
Sep 21, 2007, 09:42 PM
It's all about the RAM baby... Apple OS' can span back on several generations of machines without any problems really.

mklos
Sep 21, 2007, 09:44 PM
sweet, maybe the 500 Ti will see it after all

If you put at least 512MB of RAM in it, it should run pretty good. My G4 Cube had 1GB of RAM installed.

If Apple makes it so you can't install it on anything under 800 MHz G4 there are ways around that. If you have it, or have access to it, take an external HD case and put the HD out of your Mac into it. Plug that case into a PPC Mac (not intel) that supports the OS and install the OS. Then take the HD out of the case and put it back into your Mac and it should work fine. I've installed Tiger on a couple of 233 and 333MHz iMacs that way. Its also a great way to get Leopard or Tiger for that matter on a Mac that doesn't have a DVD drive in it.

Aperture
Sep 21, 2007, 09:46 PM
It's all about the RAM baby... Apple OS' can span back on several generations of machines without any problems really.

Good advice.

FJ218700
Sep 21, 2007, 09:47 PM
If you put at least 512MB of RAM in it, it should run pretty good.

got 2x that

MikeTheC
Sep 21, 2007, 09:47 PM
I don't mean to be a wet blanket here or anything -- honest -- but there seems less incentive for me to get it, as a PPC user, than if I were an x86 user, especially up front and until whatever bugs that need to be worked out are worked out. I mean, I'm in no great hurry for it or anything.

I've also got a computer here in the house that's an iBook G3 14", and I'm not sure if it'll run on it or not.

Aperture
Sep 21, 2007, 09:47 PM
If you put at least 512MB of RAM in it, it should run pretty good.

If it will run well on a TiBook w/ 512MB of RAM - then I need to stop debating putting in 2Gb into my MBP. (as opposed to my 1 that I have now)

aLoC
Sep 21, 2007, 09:49 PM
C'mon Apple... no one who has ever worked in software development believes there are only two known issues in a system that size.

It's just spin because they're going to release it soon.

FJ218700
Sep 21, 2007, 09:49 PM
I'm pretty sure with the most recent builds they are recommending you have an 800 MHz G4 or later. I had the WWDC '07 release installed on a 450 MHz G4 Cube and it ran great so I think it will run just fine on any G4 based system and the 800/900 MHz G3 systems with the proper amount of RAM.

by the way, did it seem faster than Tiger?

mklos
Sep 21, 2007, 09:50 PM
If it will run well on a TiBook w/ 512MB of RAM - then I need to stop debating putting in 2Gb into my MBP. (as opposed to my 1 that I have now)

Well there are other reasons for needing more RAM. You may possibly be using apps that require more RAM. You're using PPC apps which will use more RAM to function than a PPC Mac. You're trying to run Windows using Parallels which uses a ton of RAM. You're missing the point....

Mr. Dee
Sep 21, 2007, 09:51 PM
Leopard is Universal, hence the large build sizes 6GB+. This is Apple's first major OS release that deals with the Intel Macs. Yes, Tiger has an Intel version, but no major changes except it being operational with Intel CPU's.

I assume there are many "under the hood" optimizations to make the Intel Macs run better. Since the future for Apple is Intel Macs, it only makes sense to further optimize it Intel CPU's. This doesn't mean it won't run on PPC Macs or that it will run like crap, but it just didn't get as much emphasis. This will eventually become a trend for all developers, not just Apple. It will take a while just like it did with Apple and developers to slowly dwindle down OS 9 (Classic) support, but it will eventually happen. You've already seen the start with Adobe's new Creative Suite being Intel Mac only and I thought I remember seeing that Microsoft Office 2008 for Mac will be Intel only as well. I could be wrong about that though.

Your conclusions are not correct. We don't know anything about Apples internal development processes when it comes to optimizing Leopard for either Intel or PPC architectures. I have even read on Insanely Mac where one reader said Leopard PPC build 9A527 on his PowerBook was faster then Leopard Intel on his MacBook Pro and MacPro. Its also hard to measure performance between PPC G4, G5 and Intel at the moment, Apple still loves the platform.

As for support, Adobe CS3 supports PowerPC, only new versions of SoundBooth and Premier do not support PowerPC. Office 2008 will be a Universal Binary, the only difference is, there will be not VBA support. The Office for Mac team has recommended that users start moving their scripts to Apple Script. Man, I'm a Windows user and I know more about Apple!

mklos
Sep 21, 2007, 09:52 PM
by the way, did it seem faster than Tiger?

To me it didn't seem any slower. I can't say it was faster but then again it was an early beta release of the complete features so it may be better now or it may be worse.

Luap
Sep 21, 2007, 09:54 PM
I don't mean to be a wet blanket here or anything -- honest -- but there seems less incentive for me to get it, as a PPC user, than if I were an x86 user, especially up front and until whatever bugs that need to be worked out are worked out. I mean, I'm in no great hurry for it or anything.

I've also got a computer here in the house that's an iBook G3 14", and I'm not sure if it'll run on it or not.

Reports i've read suggests it runs faster than 10.4 on PPC machines, even if they are short of some ram.
And no, i dont think it will work for your G3 iBook. Apple states you MUST have a G4 800mhz or better/faster mac to run it on.

Having said that.. I did see on one of those suspect torrent sites, a hack/patch that would allow a Leopard beta to run on lower spec machines. So likely this may appear for the GM too.

Again, none of this stuff I have tried myself, its just what I have been reading on my internetular travels.

ckurowic
Sep 21, 2007, 09:55 PM
Out of curiosity, developers, should I see good performance with these specs?

PowerPC G5 1.6GHz
4GB RAM
256MB ATI Radeon 9600 Pro

mklos
Sep 21, 2007, 09:55 PM
Your conclusions are not correct. We don't know anything about Apples internal development processes when it comes to optimizing Leopard for either Intel or PPC architectures. I have even read on Insanely Mac where one reader said Leopard PPC build 9A527 on his PowerBook was faster then Leopard Intel on his MacBook Pro and MacPro. Its also hard to measure performance between PPC G4, G5 and Intel at the moment, Apple still loves the platform.

As for support, Adobe CS3 supports PowerPC, only new versions of SoundBooth and Premier do not support PowerPC. Office 2008 will be a Universal Binary, the only difference is, there will be not VBA support. The Office for Mac team has recommended that users start moving their scripts to Apple Script. Man, I'm a Windows user and I know more about Apple!

Well as a person who has experienced this first hand I can tell you my postings are accurate. Don't always believe what you read. There are too many variables to go off what someone else said.

Don't be the cocky SOB who thinks they know everything because they can read articles and take everything they read to its automatically true for every user.

I never said it was exactly true that Office '08 for Mac was Intel only, I just thought I heard rumblings somewhere that it would be. Yet, another reason why you shouldn't always believe what you read. I should have been more specific about the Adobe Creative Suite....

offwidafairies
Sep 21, 2007, 10:01 PM
so much specualation about the release and ship date!!
i guess it is a rumour site

FJ218700
Sep 21, 2007, 10:03 PM
. . .Don't always believe what you read. There are too many variables to go off what someone else said.

Don't be the cocky SOB who thinks they know everything because they can read articles and take everything they read to its automatically true for every user.

I never said it was exactly true that Office '08 for Mac was Intel only, I just thought I heard rumblings somewhere that it would be. Yet, another reason why you shouldn't always believe what you read...

best post I've read today

aeropix
Sep 21, 2007, 10:15 PM
i sure hope this build is gold master and it ships by mid october

I am curious, in an honest and sincere way, to know why it is so important to get this new OS so quickly. Is there something wrong with OS10.4 that so urgently needs fixing?

I honestly ask this, because I am so happy with the current 10.4.10. It does everything I could want, and is extremely stable. Everything works just fine.

In fact, though I have a 1 year old MacBook, so have quite curent hardware, I will delay upgrade until late in the new year to assure no degradation of system performance that often occurs when older machines are mated with new software.

/dev/toaster
Sep 21, 2007, 10:17 PM
And you are teh one who si gonna do the actual beta testing.


As I am an experienced/smart buyer, I will wait a few months until the revision comes out. I am not going to install the new OS to face a bunch of bugs and get frustrate as every one else do when they go all "desperate" to get the first realease of anything.

I will wait a bit still.

I see everybody who is running Vista (sorry, I'm just making a point) desperate. I had a friend the other day frustrate it because he just couldn't install some elements for his 3D software, MS was asking him for a bunch of things.

Of course Apple is way beyond that but again... I will wait.

I can totally understand. For me however, I can't wait to be using it for real. Timemachine is such a godsend. Last week I had major data corruption due to a bug in some backup software (go figure). After that, I realized how much timemachine is going to rock. As of current, I don't have proper backups of mine or my girlfriends Mac. I am setting up my local server to handle the timemachine repo.

I just love that timemachine works over a network.

This won't be even remotely close to the disaster that is Vista. If for some odd bizzare reason it is, I will quickly roll back to tiger. I am doing a clean install anyway. (Have to, since I am running Leopard right now LOL)

samh004
Sep 21, 2007, 10:23 PM
Gold is a chemical element and a highly sought-after precious metal which, for many centuries, has been used as money and in jewelery.

However, there's no need to call me "master." At least not here. Otherwise, I may have to spank you in front of everyone.

ROFLMAO !!

On the other hand, I think it would be pretty cool (and sort of amusing) to see a Leopard timer on the Apple frontpage. :D

I remember the one from Tiger, so I guess it's possible. It'll just make time go slower for me though :(

I am curious, in an honest and sincere way, to know why it is so important to get this new OS so quickly. Is there something wrong with OS10.4 that so urgently needs fixing?

I honestly ask this, because I am so happy with the current 10.4.10. It does everything I could want, and is extremely stable. Everything works just fine.

While that's all true, what many users want to try are the new features in iChat and Photo Booth etc... and the new functionality that is Spaces and all that.

Sure it might be a little less stable, but there's new things to try out and show off to friends, who doesn't want to do that ? Obviously you, but you know what I meant.

exigentsky
Sep 21, 2007, 10:24 PM
C'mon Apple... no one who has ever worked in software development believes there are only two known issues in a system that size.

It's just spin because they're going to release it soon.

Of course, when Apple says this given the context, they mean SHOWSTOPPER bugs. OS X has thousands of bugs, as does Windows and any other modern OS. I myself have submitted 90 bugs and feature/enhancement requests (but half were duplicates).

Anyway, I think Apple is going to meet the deadline, but they really shouldn't. They're not ready. Even the features themselves aren't implemented well enough. Have you tried the dock on the side? :p Moreover, they haven't even released a RC. They need at least two extra months.

samh004
Sep 21, 2007, 10:28 PM
Have you tried the dock on the side? :p They need at least two extra months.

I hate how Stacks doesn't open both ways on the side... I really wish it did, as that's where my dock will be.

stoutboy1
Sep 21, 2007, 10:37 PM
:apple:I love it, so here is my optimistic speculation, 10.5 is already GM what they are working on now is 10.5.1 for immediate update Oct 31st immediately after installation. Hey its definitely possible... :D:D

Mr. Dee
Sep 21, 2007, 10:42 PM
Well as a person who has experienced this first hand I can tell you my postings are accurate. Don't always believe what you read. There are too many variables to go off what someone else said.

Don't be the cocky SOB who thinks they know everything because they can read articles and take everything they read to its automatically true for every user.

I never said it was exactly true that Office '08 for Mac was Intel only, I just thought I heard rumblings somewhere that it would be. Yet, another reason why you shouldn't always believe what you read. I should have been more specific about the Adobe Creative Suite....

I am not believing everything I read, and don't call me cocky SOB because you lack the effort to do research and testing."There are too many variables to go off what someone else said". I thought I said that? :s Leopard is not finalized, so we can't comes to a conclusion that one will be faster than the other. Reviewers, including my self have praised Apple for improving the performance of their operating system with each release on even old hardware, its something that has been talked about for years.

ventro
Sep 21, 2007, 10:45 PM
Any screenshots for us nitpickers?

todd2000
Sep 21, 2007, 10:58 PM
I'm pretty sure the 'Top Secret' features were a completely new finder, new dock, new desktop features, and QuickLook (it was seeded to devs but never announced). When it comes to .Mac, the 'overhaul' was 10GB of storage, Web Gallery (awesome feature) and Leopard's "Back to my Mac" which is insanely cool. As for iLife and iWork, they just got huge updates so I'm not sure what the heck you expect.

Yes im pretty sure those were the "top-secret" features as well as stacks, and probable some other things that im forgetting :), and they were announced at WWDC 2007 you can watch the keynote here if you missed it http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/wwdc07/

mdriftmeyer
Sep 21, 2007, 11:05 PM
Your conclusions are not correct. We don't know anything about Apples internal development processes when it comes to optimizing Leopard for either Intel or PPC architectures. I have even read on Insanely Mac where one reader said Leopard PPC build 9A527 on his PowerBook was faster then Leopard Intel on his MacBook Pro and MacPro. Its also hard to measure performance between PPC G4, G5 and Intel at the moment, Apple still loves the platform.

As for support, Adobe CS3 supports PowerPC, only new versions of SoundBooth and Premier do not support PowerPC. Office 2008 will be a Universal Binary, the only difference is, there will be not VBA support. The Office for Mac team has recommended that users start moving their scripts to Apple Script. Man, I'm a Windows user and I know more about Apple!

What he should have stated is that each platform has been optimized as much as possible within the linker, compiler stages.

mdriftmeyer
Sep 21, 2007, 11:08 PM
Am I the only one starting to think that Leopard is going to be pushed back again??? I know Apple still has a little bit of time, but I am starting to think it might not be released til November or even early next year.

After seeding Leopard 9A528d just yesterday, Apple has released 9A559 to ADC members tonight. Yesterday's update appears to have been primarily testing Leopard's Software Update mechanism.

The 6.55GB download lists only two known issues for Leopard. The two issues described involve upgrading from Tiger to Leopard on PowerPC systems in certain scenarios, and HP printer drivers.

Having worked for both NeXT and Apple these revisions are to be expected. Dev releases to 3rd parties always lag behind internal builds. Internal builds are branched and target specific areas of development.

GM will remerge into the mainline branch when it's ready. And no, this isn't a delay. This should give you more confidence they are reaching GM.

powderblue17
Sep 21, 2007, 11:12 PM
If no screenshots can someone at least tell us if anything has changed. I'm sure you downloaders have it installed by now.

BKKbill
Sep 21, 2007, 11:13 PM
The Apple store still says arriving in October. Is it just me? It seems this whole form have been waiting for Apple to release something or other for quite some time now. Lets hope this one is on time.

macguysoft
Sep 21, 2007, 11:17 PM
Your conclusions are not correct.

Absolutely incorrect? I think we all know that Apple is indeed putting more focus on improving the experience on Intel computers but this is not to say that there are no improvements for the PPC user. So what would you suggest Apple is doing? I would say that since History repeats itself, it would be more likely that Apple is gradually focusing more of their resources on the intel platform as most of the mac users will eventually own an intel. I suppose why Apple is still supporting PPC is for the reason that many still use it.

I'll say that I'm quite skeptical of the claim that Leopard actually runs better on a PPC than intel. While perhaps possible, I consider that rather unlikely... In my experience, it runs slower if I do a fresh install than a intel but it does run faster than Tiger. A lot of variables are involved I suppose so no definite conclusions can be arrived at. I'm just working from what is probabilistically more likely to be occurring or what is going to occur. If they decided to stop support, would this look good for Apple? I think it's more of a matter that they should support it... at least for now. Plus it's actually a good thing! This makes Apple products compatible even with older computers which proves to show the their support is very good. But again, they'll eventually have to leave it once the number of PPC users goes down.

The speed increase most likely has something to do with a overall clean up of code and some better organizing.

Just my 2 cents...

projectle
Sep 21, 2007, 11:17 PM
opening music has changed.

chrisdazzo
Sep 21, 2007, 11:28 PM
opening music has changed.
Wait... For Leopard? What is it now? Sample please (if NDA allows it)! :)

Sbrocket
Sep 21, 2007, 11:41 PM
Wait... For Leopard? What is it now? Sample please (if NDA allows it)! :)

Non-Disclosure Agreements typically don't even allow releasing information that leads to posting of articles such as these (though I haven't read the ADC one in particular.) What makes you think that the NDA would allow someone to post specific files out of developer seeds?

chrisdazzo
Sep 21, 2007, 11:42 PM
Non-Disclosure Agreements typically don't even allow releasing information that leads to posting of articles such as these (though I haven't read the ADC one in particular.) What makes you think that the NDA would allow someone to post specific files out of developer seeds?
Curiosity. :p

AppleiMac
Sep 21, 2007, 11:46 PM
Gasp! I completely forgot that Apple had some secret features of Leopard that they weren't going to tell anyone about until release day... I wonder what those could be. On the other hand, I think it would be pretty cool (and sort of amusing) to see a Leopard timer on the Apple frontpage. :D

Don't get your hopes up, lol. People get all excited sometimes and then dissapointed when it comes out.

chrisdazzo
Sep 21, 2007, 11:55 PM
Well of course that may happen. I'm hoping for a lot but still telling myself that it's just another Apple OS. I'm sure it will live up to most of the hype, and having used Leopard once thanks to a Developer friend of mine, I've got high expectations for the Gold Master.

Who knows, though. Anything could happen between now and October 31st.

pixlnet
Sep 21, 2007, 11:57 PM
It'll be well worth the wait....and I'm happy to say I get to use my Apple Credit from iPhone exchange to buy it. I'm really excited about Leopard Server though. I think it will help them a ton with Business sales.

I think the biggest feature I'm excited about is Spaces. How bout you guys?

Brendon Bauer
Sep 21, 2007, 11:57 PM
opening music has changed.

I'd buy Leopard just for that :D. Man I'm excited...

chr1s60
Sep 22, 2007, 12:02 AM
Why do you think that? It is common for Apple to release a developer build about a month before the boxed product is released ... with that "last" developer build basically matching what goes in the box. Also sometimes we will get a little burst of builds near they end as the close out show stoppers that are found.

I only say that for two reasons. First off, there has yet to be an official release date other than October and there is only a week left in September and there is no word. The other reason is because I have seen developers with Leopard say that the it still seems a ways away from being ready. The combination of those is making me start to wonder if there will be another change in release date.

chrisdazzo
Sep 22, 2007, 12:06 AM
It'll be well worth the wait....and I'm happy to say I get to use my Apple Credit from iPhone exchange to buy it. I'm really excited about Leopard Server though. I think it will help them a ton with Business sales.

I think the biggest feature I'm excited about is Spaces. How bout you guys?
Definitely Spaces, Time Machine, and the "Finder" Coverflow. Though, I expect I'll have to do an update for every single one of my programs to view them in crystal-clear 512x512 pixel beauty. Oh well. :rolleyes:

aLoC
Sep 22, 2007, 12:26 AM
I myself have submitted 90 bugs and feature/enhancement requests (but half were duplicates).

Good job. I've submitted some but nothing like that many.

Anyway, I think Apple is going to meet the deadline, but they really shouldn't.

Blame the Internet. Companies know they can push out updates post deployment easier than ever. It's just the new reality.

BTW
Sep 22, 2007, 12:47 AM
Am I the only one starting to think that Leopard is going to be pushed back again??? I know Apple still has a little bit of time, but I am starting to think it might not be released til November or even early next year.

Nope, I think it is coming down to the wire and they'll push it again. Yet, I believe Apple should start doing open public betas to non-ADC members. They did it with 10.0 for $20 and when it went gold the $20 was discounted from the release price.

There are plenty of wannabe-bleeding-edgers out there so why shouldn't Apple use them. :cool:

samh004
Sep 22, 2007, 12:57 AM
There are plenty of wannabe-bleeding-edgers out there so why shouldn't Apple use them. :cool:

Because they already have enough developers to help them along, and they'll get your money in the end for it anyway, so the extra $20 per person (that will be discounted from the final price) means nothing to them at this stage.

aLoC
Sep 22, 2007, 01:13 AM
Those who hate the new Dock can always put shortcuts all over your desktop (like Windows people).

chrisdazzo
Sep 22, 2007, 01:17 AM
Those who hate the new Dock can always put shortcuts all over your desktop (like Windows people).
Haha. Windows... Eh. I'm wondering what Apple is going to do about the dock looking weird on the sides of the screen. That really bugs me, though I don't even put my dock anywhere but the bottom of the screen.

Peace
Sep 22, 2007, 01:26 AM
I'm happy to report something I shouldn't but it's so friggin fantastic I can't hold out..Apple...Sue me!!


You ready?







Better sit down..........











They fixed the date on the iCal icon to reflect the actual date..

chrisdazzo
Sep 22, 2007, 01:29 AM
I'm happy to report something I shouldn't but it's so friggin fantastic I can't hold out..Apple...Sue me!!


You ready?







Better sit down..........











They fixed the date on the iCal icon to reflect the actual date..

OH MY-- GOLD MASTER TOMORROW. NOT EVEN KIDDING.

kainjow
Sep 22, 2007, 01:42 AM
This is a RC..The GM (M67 or M69)has been done.Developers should see it wihin 2 weeks and announcement and/or timer on Apple's homepage on or before Oct. 5th.

On shelves 10/18


just a guess mind you.;)

I'll have to agree with you

*cough* new startup audio *cough*

pknz
Sep 22, 2007, 01:44 AM
I'm happy to report something I shouldn't but it's so friggin fantastic I can't hold out..Apple...Sue me!!

You ready?

Better sit down..........

They fixed the date on the iCal icon to reflect the actual date..

Hmm I'm going to assume Apple did it in more advanced way than just having 365 icons?

chrisdazzo
Sep 22, 2007, 01:44 AM
I'll have to agree with you

*cough* new startup audio *cough*
Ooh, I never thought that would signal near-completion. :) Hmmm...

cheunghy
Sep 22, 2007, 01:47 AM
Hmm I'm going to assume Apple did it in more advanced way than just having 365 icons?

They did that with 366 icons instead... :D

J@ffa
Sep 22, 2007, 02:29 AM
I'm happy to report something I shouldn't but it's so friggin fantastic I can't hold out..Apple...Sue me!!

<snip>

They fixed the date on the iCal icon to reflect the actual date..

W00T!!!!!1111349eight

GM TOMORROW NO CHOICE LOLLERSK8Z*

* R.I.P. iCal Day :(

mdriftmeyer
Sep 22, 2007, 02:58 AM
Because they already have enough developers to help them along, and they'll get your money in the end for it anyway, so the extra $20 per person (that will be discounted from the final price) means nothing to them at this stage.

For some reason people don't register that over 4,000 paying developers show up at WWDC and many more pay for Select accounts that don't show up and still develop products.

There are enough people banging on the code but that seems to be overlooked by most consumers.

There comes a point when too many cooks spoil the soup.

mountainbiker80
Sep 22, 2007, 03:01 AM
I have to say, I am very much more impressed with what I'm seeing than 9A527. Seriously. :D I'm having fun, last seed was pretty hard on my patience.

ChicoWeb
Sep 22, 2007, 03:07 AM
I can't wait for this to actually be released on the market.

Much Ado
Sep 22, 2007, 03:23 AM
I can't wait for this to actually be released on the market.

I think that's been the general MR thinking since, well, August ;)

bogg
Sep 22, 2007, 03:26 AM
No, I have all the USB ports empty, but since the patch 10.4.10 it caused USB HD/memory sticks not to read unless connected to USB hub. Dont want USB 2.0 bec I have no need. Still the hacks I done to fix it have not worked.


Ehm, no, it didn't break it... Not for me anyway...
Not on Any of my machines running 10.4.10 (around 5)

aLoC
Sep 22, 2007, 03:37 AM
I have used all the seeds and I'm not allowed to give any details but I will say I won't be switching over to Leopard right away. I think Microsoft lost their way with Vista and so has Apple with Leopard.

BWhaler
Sep 22, 2007, 03:59 AM
I'm happy to report something I shouldn't but it's so friggin fantastic I can't hold out..Apple...Sue me!!

They fixed the date on the iCal icon to reflect the actual date..

Great news. This was a pathetic design flaw.

I just wish Apple would fix the other 10 idiotic problems with iCal. Since 10.3, we've been waiting for some basic functionality to be added.

But with Apple, it's a game of inches. At least iCal has fixed icons, inline editing, and doesn't look like it is from the 80's. Hopefully in 10.6 we'll see real task management, etc.

Game of inches...

teknishn
Sep 22, 2007, 04:25 AM
I just got 559 running.... and I have to say wow. I wasn't expecting much difference, but on the contrary this build is dramatically improved.

Very hard to put it into words really. Having been running 527 and then 528d etc.... this 559 build feels like 100 times improvement without question. Very polished, very ready for the big time.

As I said before, hard to put it into words. To the doubters, doubt no more. To the ppl that fear Leopard may be further delayed, fear no more. I was concerned before... and now that is all out the window. This build is without question a release candidate and probably 1 or 2 builds shy of Gold.

The_Roo
Sep 22, 2007, 04:37 AM
I just got 559 running.... and I have to say wow. I wasn't expecting much difference, but on the contrary this build is dramatically improved.

So have they swapped the Aqua scroll bars for the ones in iTunes/iPhoto yet?

Markus1982
Sep 22, 2007, 04:37 AM
I just got 559 running.... and I have to say wow. I wasn't expecting much difference, but on the contrary this build is dramatically improved.Any difference in the most critizised areas, like screaming bright trafficlights or ugly dock?

MacsRgr8
Sep 22, 2007, 04:37 AM
Let me guess, you have an Intel Mac.

Some people are still on PPC Macs, such as myself. If Apple ignored them do you know how much of an uproar there would be? Plus, Apple promised that Leopard would be universal.

Ofcourse it's universal... :rolleyes:

All the beta's are universal, so the GM will be too.

MacsAttack
Sep 22, 2007, 05:02 AM
They fixed the date on the iCal icon to reflect the actual date..

I was going to skip Leopard, but now Apple have added this killer feature I just have to have it!

Err... Well there are a few other features in there that I did want anyway. An excelent writing tool is to use the text-to-speach capability when proofing text. The vastly improved version that was in the demos is going to be a great improvment - and is only one of the new features I am looking forwards to. Big question that remains is - did they really FTFF?

nato64
Sep 22, 2007, 05:03 AM
I have used all the seeds and I'm not allowed to give any details but I will say I won't be switching over to Leopard right away. I think Microsoft lost their way with Vista and so has Apple with Leopard.

Can you eleborate any more? Cuz right now you're sounding like a troll. Do you not like the UI? Emphasized features? What is it?

anOwl
Sep 22, 2007, 05:06 AM
Lordy please let them announce the release date and a Leopard up to date program, so I can finally BUY A NEW IMAC already :)
Im with you - going for a macbook pro though.
The waiting game is terring me apart :mad:

tomd89
Sep 22, 2007, 05:24 AM
Any screenshots yet?

teknishn
Sep 22, 2007, 05:31 AM
Any difference in the most critizised areas, like screaming bright trafficlights or ugly dock?

No... I never really payed much attention to the traffic lights as you call them.

Dock is the same as well. I actually love the new dock. I guess its a matter of preference, but when I go from my new iMac with 559 to my macbook with Tiger, I find the old dock bland and boring. Definitely prefer the new one.... use it for a week or so and it really grows on you.

Personally, I hardly call those 2 items the most widely criticized. The most whined about maybe, but my focus was on the real issues of the core OS itself. It was wildly not ready before now.... to the point where I was a bit worried. Thank the maker everything is shaping up nicely.

Markus1982
Sep 22, 2007, 05:36 AM
Dock is the same as well. I actually love the new dock. I guess its a matter of preference, but when I go from my new iMac with 559 to my macbook with Tiger, I find the old dock bland and boring. Definitely prefer the new one.... use it for a week or so and it really grows on you.
I do like the idea of a 3D-Dock and think the old one looks boring now. But I think the execution in Leopard is really poor work by the artists. Three conflicting shadows? Wrong perspective Abbey Road-Divider? Come on, Apple. :rolleyes:

RichardI
Sep 22, 2007, 05:37 AM
The printer "problem" really isn't a problem.

The driver will show up as an update when you click on update.:)

Explain, please. I'm referring to Tiger's printer drivers. There doesn't appear to be any driver for a non-postscript Laserjet 6P. Are you assuming that I have a copy of Leopard beta? I don't.

Rich :cool:

BKKbill
Sep 22, 2007, 05:38 AM
Well this is starting to sound better indeed much better. That date icon sweet.

slackpacker
Sep 22, 2007, 05:46 AM
whats gold master?

Its a term they use when they press a gold DVD and send that DVD to the Factory which duplicates the DVD's and retail packages.. that we buy.

It would mean that the product would be finished as well

willybNL
Sep 22, 2007, 05:58 AM
Any difference in the most critizised areas, like screaming bright trafficlights or ugly dock?

It's taste.... from the screenshot's i've seen up till now i like it.

But hopefully it's possible to switch to the old-mode... (just like in vista you can still use the XP or 2000 layout for the system; quite nice!).

p.s. I do hate that star (in the background) on the left below (I use the background in X.4.10 now; and it really irritates me with that spot so bright white). Except for this star the background = beauty! See attachment :).

Markus1982
Sep 22, 2007, 06:09 AM
It's taste...
Err, its not taste.
Well, the idea of a 3d-dock is taste, but not the graphic errors, as I said here:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=4221528&postcount=151

Kelmon
Sep 22, 2007, 06:12 AM
The question for me is whether 10.5.0 will be like 10.3.0, which was solid, or 10.4.0, which delivered a number of kernel panics until around the 2nd update on my old G4 PowerBook? I'm going to order Leopard as soon as I can so that I can get my hands on the new developer tools but I really hope (as everyone does, of course) that the initial version doesn't cause any major problems. I'm hoping for a Panther-style release quality on this one.

aLoC
Sep 22, 2007, 06:21 AM
Can you eleborate any more? Cuz right now you're sounding like a troll. Do you not like the UI? Emphasized features? What is it?

I have the same complaints as everyone else.

- The dock is a monstrosity.
- The menu bar is tacky.
- The background windows look washed out.
- The toolbar icons on Mail and Preview look amateurish.
- Selected toolbars are too dark.
- The font smoothing technology looks worse than the competition.
- Finder now has 4 views, none of which are as useful as the tree view in Windows.
- The new help system will intimidate people. All you want is a 'lil help and what you get is Satan taking control of your computer.
- The disk management is rubbish. Try using two heavy disk using apps at once at watch the whole system fall down in a screaming heap.
- It has more background tasks than a mother of 6. Disk event recording, Spotlight indexing, backup. Spare a few seconds for my apps Guvna?
- The primary programming language has had garbage collection added. This will result in Mac apps being more bloated than other platforms. For example the Dictionary in Leopard, a simple app to display word definitions, allocates 1GB of virtual memory.

This is not a sleek wild Leopard, but a big fat Leopard lived it's whole life at the zoo.

Wayfarer
Sep 22, 2007, 06:33 AM
This is a RC..The GM (M67 or M69)has been done.Developers should see it wihin 2 weeks and announcement and/or timer on Apple's homepage on or before Oct. 5th.

On shelves 10/18


just a guess mind you.;)

Great speculation! I hope it turns out to be right. The anticipication is killing me.

mspman
Sep 22, 2007, 06:34 AM
I have the same complaints as everyone else.

- The dock is a monstrosity.
- The menu bar is tacky.
- The background windows look washed out.
- The toolbar icons on Mail and Preview look amateurish.
- Selected toolbars are too dark.
- The font smoothing technology looks worse than the competition.
- Finder now has 4 views, none of which are as useful as the tree view in Windows.
- The new help system will intimidate people. All you want is a 'lil help and what you get is Satan taking control of your computer.
- The disk management is rubbish. Try using two heavy disk using apps at once at watch the whole system fall down in a screaming heap.
- It has more background tasks than a mother of 6. Disk event recording, Spotlight indexing, backup. Spare a few seconds for my apps Guvna?
- The primary programming language has had garbage collection added. This will result in Mac apps being more bloated than other platforms. For example the Dictionary in Leopard, a simple app to display word definitions, allocates 1GB of virtual memory.

This is not a sleek wild Leopard, but a big fat Leopard lived it's whole life at the zoo.

I respect your opinions about the dock and such, but as someone who hasn't used Leopard yet, I'd like some clarification on your other points. Like, what do you mean about the disk management problems? And, what about the background tasks? Can't you shut those off?

Oh, and what is 'garbage collection'? (From your last point)

And what system are you running Leopard on anyway? Just curious.

Lextar
Sep 22, 2007, 06:42 AM
Ehm, no, it didn't break it... Not for me anyway...
Not on Any of my machines running 10.4.10 (around 5)

On my macbook both my external usb hd drives used to work with 10.4.9. Now only one of them works - the other causes timeout error messages in system.log. Looks like this only happens with certain usb devices as not all of them stop working.

The same happens on my new 24" iMac with 10.4.10.

I really hope 10.4.11 fixes that.

... on the other hand I was really surprised yesterday. I have a USB headset with an integrated sound card. On Windows this was a nightmare - drivers were bad and I even had bsods. On my Mac this just worked although it isn't even officially supported on the Mac. I even listened to some music in iTunes and unplugged the headset in the middle of the song - it continued playing on the other soundcard - seamlessly. This would never happen on Windows :)

samh004
Sep 22, 2007, 06:52 AM
They fixed the date on the iCal icon to reflect the actual date..

Will that mean an extra process needs to be launched every time the system starts... I know it'll be marginal, but it's something extra right ?

Hmm I'm going to assume Apple did it in more advanced way than just having 365 icons?

Somebody forgot leap years then :p

Im with you - going for a macbook pro though.
The waiting game is terring me apart :mad:

Tearing. Sorry.

But hopefully it's possible to switch to the old-mode... (just like in vista you can still use the XP or 2000 layout for the system; quite nice!).

The problem with that is Apple likes to have every system look the best, not from your point of view, but theirs. They don't want you flashing an older layout to your friends... noooo... they want the very latest cool super wizbang layout on your machine, showing off their best design work.

It's not really your machine after all, your just experiencing it, and helping drive sales.

:p

The question for me is whether 10.5.0 will be like 10.3.0, which was solid, or 10.4.0, which delivered a number of kernel panics until around the 2nd update on my old G4 PowerBook?

I'd say it'd be more like 10.4.0 as there are a lot more people clamouring for this update than there were with 10.4.0 or even 10.3.0. With so many anxious buyers, they are under much more pressure t meet an already slipped schedule and I'd imagine it'll be stable to a degree that you don't do too much extra with it :p

Undoubtedly 10.5.1/2 will bring the full stability needed. And probably break audio or something too :)

On my macbook both my external usb hd drives used to work with 10.4.9. Now only one of them works - the other causes timeout error messages in system.log. Looks like this only happens with certain usb devices as not all of them stop working.

The same happens on my new 24" iMac with 10.4.10.

I really hope 10.4.11 fixes that.

Have you verified the disk / permissions etc with disk utility ? There could be something wrong with your drive. Perhaps it's not being recognised because it was set up for a PPC mac and the Intel macs need a different something-or-other. I ran into that problem coming from a PowerBook.

Wayfarer
Sep 22, 2007, 06:55 AM
I have the same complaints as everyone else....

*
*
*

This is not a sleek wild Leopard, but a big fat Leopard lived it's whole life at the zoo.

"Everyone" does not have those complaints. We've heard the same nitpicking arguments time and again. What do I have to say about that?

"Don't knock it, 'til you've tried it."

treblah
Sep 22, 2007, 06:57 AM
The question for me is whether 10.5.0 will be like 10.3.0, which was solid…I'm hoping for a Panther-style release quality on this one.

Forgot about this (http://www.macfixit.com/staticpages/index.php?page=20031110092416682), eh?

Lextar
Sep 22, 2007, 07:02 AM
Have you verified the disk / permissions etc with disk utility ? There could be something wrong with your drive. Perhaps it's not being recognised because it was set up for a PPC mac and the Intel macs need a different something-or-other. I ran into that problem coming from a PowerBook.

It doesn't even appear in disk utility. And there is a big thread on the Apple forums about that problem.

Here is what I get in system.log:

imaclextar:~ lextar$ cd /var/log
imaclextar:/var/log lextar$ tail -f system.log
Sep 22 13:59:09 imaclextar kernel[0]: USBF: 86694.266 AppleUSBEHCI[0x3e03000]::Found a transaction past the completion deadline on bus 253, timing out!
Sep 22 13:59:16 imaclextar kernel[0]: USBF: 86701.266 AppleUSBEHCI[0x3e03000]::Found a transaction past the completion deadline on bus 253, timing out!

... and so on. It keeps on writing this message every 3 seconds and the device doesn't appear in the Finder or Disk Utility. In 10.4.9 it worked without any problems and the other drive works - although it takes quite a long time until it appears in the Finder (but I guess this is normal?).

Well, gonna try that USB hub "solution"...

Oh - and of course it works in Windows on the same machine (Boot Camp).

Blue Velvet
Sep 22, 2007, 07:04 AM
I also see no compelling reason to upgrade and am not impressed by what I've seen so far. The whole thing looks extremely tacky — aimed at teenybopper switchers, in my view — and the feature list is underwhelming.

As per usual, I will read what everyone has to say here upon release and make my mind up in a few months time. And it's not going near the work Macs until I've tested it out at home first.

wngraham
Sep 22, 2007, 07:26 AM
November 9th? Did I miss something?

Powerbook G5

Taylor C
Sep 22, 2007, 07:28 AM
Apparently Stacks are customizable now. :D

Markus1982
Sep 22, 2007, 07:31 AM
Apparently Stacks are customizable now. :DHow exactly? Is it possible to add items from various folders, like in the wwdc-build or is it still a nicer looking folderview, like in the last 2 or 3 builds?

AidenShaw
Sep 22, 2007, 07:36 AM
There is a good possibilities of it being released on a DVD±DL...

It will be released on a DVD-ROM, not on a recordable DVD.

DVD-ROM has supported dual layer since the beginning - look at the files on a commercial movie DVD, most of them contain much more than the 4.7 GB supported by a single layer.

God^Cent
Sep 22, 2007, 07:43 AM
Apparently Stacks are customizable now. :D
Not true without Pics:)

pale9
Sep 22, 2007, 08:32 AM
they go gold master next week, start up the cdrom factories, in the meantime they continue working kinks out, by the time leopard is sold they will have their first update ready... so where is the problem?

rented mule
Sep 22, 2007, 08:35 AM
I also see no compelling reason to upgrade and am not impressed by what I've seen so far. The whole thing looks extremely tacky — aimed at teenybopper switchers, in my view — and the feature list is underwhelming.

As per usual, I will read what everyone has to say here upon release and make my mind up in a few months time. And it's not going near the work Macs until I've tested it out at home first.

Tacky? It's the most professional look in a looooong time. The only thing that is tacky is the new Dock look. Everything else has a very reserved look...windows finally have a single professional look...the menu bar doesn't scream out at you...folders actually look like folders.

I'm sorry but the 'teenybopper' switcher material was in the 10.0 and 10.1 releases where everything was heavily transparent, pinstripped, or glossy.

If you're not impressed, stick with 10.3 or 10.4...nobody's forcing you to upgrade and nobody will care if you do or not.

starnox
Sep 22, 2007, 08:41 AM
Quit complaining. Leopard has tones of little features which make the whole experience so much more enjoyable. Just a few:

- Printing much improved
- Selecting wireless networks (you no longer have to click the wireless tab about 5 times trying to select a network when it keeps on refreshing the list)
- Networking in System preferences has been tidied up greatly
- The whole universal application style is great, no more brushed metal.
- System updates are a lot better

These are just a few things which makes leopard buying, and they aren't even major.

Blue Velvet
Sep 22, 2007, 08:44 AM
Tacky? It's the most professional look in a looooong time. The only thing that is tacky is the new Dock look. Everything else has a very reserved look...windows finally have a single professional look...the menu bar doesn't scream out at you...folders actually look like folders.

I'm sorry but the 'teenybopper' switcher material was in the 10.0 and 10.1 releases where everything was heavily transparent, pinstripped, or glossy.

If you're not impressed, stick with 10.3 or 10.4...nobody's forcing you to upgrade and nobody will care if you do or not.


As a professional designer, I think I'm qualified to make a judgement on what looks professional or not. ;)

Furthermore, folders looking like folders does not a compelling case make for a network upgrade with all our peripherals and third-party apps used for a print-design workflow and output worth about US$1.2 million per year.

And so, Apple will care if Leopard does not sell.


Oh, and mod's note: please watch the flaming in this thread. Thanks.

mklos
Sep 22, 2007, 08:47 AM
I also see no compelling reason to upgrade and am not impressed by what I've seen so far. The whole thing looks extremely tacky — aimed at teenybopper switchers, in my view — and the feature list is underwhelming.

As per usual, I will read what everyone has to say here upon release and make my mind up in a few months time. And it's not going near the work Macs until I've tested it out at home first.

While the new feature list may not appear all that hot to some, there have been many "under the hood" changes. Meaning there's lots of code cleanup, and optimizations for Intel Macs. Sometimes this is actually a good thing because it cleans up the OS and doesn't turn into Vista (aka bloatware). This is something that isn't always obtainable with a dot dot release (ex. 10.5.1). Apple did a lot of work in Tiger to make it work on Intel Macs and Leopard gives them an opportunity to clean up a little bit.

As far as the appearance goes, its the best look in OS X since its inception IMO. Most importantly, its a consistent through out the OS. So there's no gradient gray interface in Mail, then brushed metal in QT, then something different in iTunes and iPhoto, etc. Everything looks the same. I think it looks a lot more professional than the cheesy brushed metal look.

I would actually like to see Apple target kids for their computers. If you can get someone started on a Mac early, or even using Apple products, you tend to grasp a few. There's always room for more customers.

But....if you don't like Leopard then just don't buy it. Tiger is still an awesome OS and Leopard isn't going to appeal to everyone. Its impossible to make everyone happy without pissing a few others off. Happens all over different companies who deliver products.

Quit complaining. Leopard has tones of little features which make the whole experience so much more enjoyable. Just a few:

- Printing much improved
- Selecting wireless networks (you no longer have to click the wireless tab about 5 times trying to select a network when it keeps on refreshing the list)
- Networking in System preferences has been tidied up greatly
- The whole universal application style is great, no more brushed metal.
- System updates are a lot better

These are just a few things which makes leopard buying, and they aren't even major.

You sound like Steve Jobs! :D Not that its a bad thing. He's a heck of a salesman!

Blue Velvet
Sep 22, 2007, 08:52 AM
Meaning there's lots of code cleanup, and optimizations for Intel Macs.

That's a good thing for the MBP at home.


So there's no gradient gray interface in Mail, then brushed metal in QT, then something different in iTunes and iPhoto, etc.

That has little relevance to our work setup. My point is, apart from the external look, there's nothing I seem to find in there that's compelling at this stage relative to the cost.

rented mule
Sep 22, 2007, 08:52 AM
As a professional designer, I think I'm qualified to make a judgement on what looks professional or not. ;)

Me too! :D


Anyway...the much improved Spotlight and the new Quick Look is a godsend. Like Exposé, you'll wonder how you did without it.

heisetax
Sep 22, 2007, 08:56 AM
Am I the only one starting to think that Leopard is going to be pushed back again??? I know Apple still has a little bit of time, but I am starting to think it might not be released til November or even early next year.


Do you mean that we will be able to purchase our copy of the just released Mac OS 10.5 on the same day as MS releases MS Office 2008 for the Mac?

Bill the TaxMan

mklos
Sep 22, 2007, 08:58 AM
That's a good thing for the MBP at home.

Yes it is! I'm sure many others will agree as well.




That has little relevance to our work setup. My point is, apart from the external look, there's nothing I seem to find in there that's compelling at this stage relative to the cost.

Well, like I said, Leopard won't appeal to everyone. If Tiger is working fine then I would see no reason to upgrade either, especially in a professional environment. You will also want to make sure 3rd party apps work with Leopard too before just installing it to have the latest and greatest. Sometimes thats not always a good thing as I'm sure we've all experienced at some point.

Me too! :D


Anyway...the much improved Spotlight and the new Quick Look is a godsend. Like Exposé, you'll wonder how you did without it.

Don't forget about Spaces too! It was actually pretty cool using it. Takes a little getting used to just like Exposé did but once you start using it, you won't see how you lived without it.

Blue Velvet
Sep 22, 2007, 09:00 AM
Actually, this might sound boring but I would really like to see some substantial Finder improvements with networking. Just that alone would convince me of its value.

iGrouch
Sep 22, 2007, 09:05 AM
If Apple makes it so you can't install it on anything under 800 MHz G4 there are ways around that. If you have it, or have access to it, take an external HD case and put the HD out of your Mac into it. Plug that case into a PPC Mac (not intel) that supports the OS and install the OS. Then take the HD out of the case and put it back into your Mac and it should work fine. I've installed Tiger on a couple of 233 and 333MHz iMacs that way. Its also a great way to get Leopard or Tiger for that matter on a Mac that doesn't have a DVD drive in it.

Or, put the older Mac in Target Disk Mode and attach it to a Mac that fulfills leopard install requirements. The older Mac will be seen as an attached HD and you can point the installation at it.

manu chao
Sep 22, 2007, 09:08 AM
Does anybody know what the 9A in the build number stands for? Did the Tiger builds have 8A and Panther 7A? And Jaguar 6A and Puma 5A and Cheetah 4A? The public beta 3A and the and Mac OS Server 1.0 from 1999 2A?

mediaholic
Sep 22, 2007, 09:24 AM
Does anybody know what the 9A in the build number stands for? Did the Tiger builds have 8A and Panther 7A? And Jaguar 6A and Puma 5A and Cheetah 4A? The public beta 3A and the and Mac OS Server 1.0 from 1999 2A?

Yep, yep, yep, yep, and yep. I'm not sure about the public beta and earlier though. The "9" stands for the version of Darwin/NeXTstep. It is a continuation of NeXT's versioning.

The "A" stands for the first revision of a major release (such as 10.5.0 or 10.4.0). Other builds of OS X for new hardware have their own letters too (usually in-between the current version and next version, like 10.4.6 and 10.4.7).

bananas
Sep 22, 2007, 09:28 AM
Out of curiosity, developers, should I see good performance with these specs?

PowerPC G5 1.6GHz
4GB RAM
256MB ATI Radeon 9600 Pro

I'm not a developer, but since I have a clue about hardware I can tell you that's a powerfull machine you got. So don't worry, I'm sure Leopard will run just fine.

samh004
Sep 22, 2007, 09:35 AM
It doesn't even appear in disk utility. And there is a big thread on the Apple forums about that problem.

Here is what I get in system.log:

...

Oh - and of course it works in Windows on the same machine (Boot Camp).

Sorry, don't know much about what that means.

The whole thing looks extremely tacky — aimed at teenybopper switchers, in my view — and the feature list is underwhelming.

I semi-agree with you, some of it does look a bit... off, but it's not too bad once you've used it a bit, as I have found. I can't wait for the official release and to slowly get into new trends or using my computer.

I think you'll find it the same for your mac at home, but not sure if you'll see much use out of it at work, other than, if your applications run on it fine, the finder being more speedy will be helpful to you.

Apparently Stacks are customizable now. :D

As in the cool effect of it rising out of the dock in a single stack of images works with the dock on the side of the screen, or just that you can do other less trivial things to it ?

Oh, and mod's note: please watch the flaming in this thread. Thanks.

I would of thought that counted a few pages ago, but luckily things have calmed down a bit. People went to sleep or whatever :)

Anyway...the much improved Spotlight and the new Quick Look is a godsend. Like Exposé, you'll wonder how you did without it.

I dunno if Quick Look is going to be as much a part of my daily life as Exposé, Spaces yeah, sure, but Quick Look... not sure.

Actually, this might sound boring but I would really like to see some substantial Finder improvements with networking. Just that alone would convince me of its value.

I thought that was one of the big features Steve was touting on stage at WWDC. When he showed the shared macs and mounting other volumes, it seemed to work really well, as oppose to right now. I tried it out and it was quick, but I'm not sure how much quicker.

mklos
Sep 22, 2007, 09:50 AM
Actually, this might sound boring but I would really like to see some substantial Finder improvements with networking. Just that alone would convince me of its value.

Yes, I would like to see that as well. Networking has improved in Leopard. I never got a chance to test Windows networking. That needs a lot of improvement. IMO, its still not as easy and as reliable as it should be.

One of the nice things in Leopard is that it will automatically show computers on your network in the sidebar if you choose to do so. Its actually nice if you only have a few Macs connected to your network. With a single click of the mouse you can see and connect to any Mac on your network. You don't have to go nosing around to the Network section to see your Macs.

I would also like to see the long pause if something goes wrong with the network. For example, if you were connected to a shared hard drive and the Mac that was sharing the hard drive was shut down the Mac connected to the shared drive shouldn't just sit there for 5 minutes with the spinning beach ball. It should either ignore it until the network is re-connected or just immediately pop up an error.

Or, put the older Mac in Target Disk Mode and attach it to a Mac that fulfills leopard install requirements. The older Mac will be seen as an attached HD and you can point the installation at it.

Yes, you can do that, but only if the other Mac has a FireWire port...

aLoC
Sep 22, 2007, 09:57 AM
Like, what do you mean about the disk management problems?


I mean if you are using two programs that make heavy use of the disk, the OS should manage their access. It should give each app say 2 seconds in turn, swapping back and forth.

Instead it seems to let both apps at the disk at once which just results in a lot of disk thrashing and neither program getting anywhere.

And, what about the background tasks? Can't you shut those off?

I don't know, maybe.

Oh, and what is 'garbage collection'? (From your last point)

Is is a programming language feature that means the programmer doesn't have to think about memory management. They don't have to explicity tell the OS when they want some RAM for their program and when they're done with it.

Unfortunately when a programmer stops having to think about memory there's a bigger chance of them being wasteful with it.

FightTheFuture
Sep 22, 2007, 10:05 AM
Leopard won't appeal to everyone. If Tiger is working fine then I would see no reason to upgrade either,

i agree. tiger is the best selling  OS to date. it got a lot of switchers on board as well. i'm sure it'll be around for at least a year after Leopard launch - and the lack of Adobe Support (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070918/tc_nm/adobe_apple_dc) will probably keep a lot of us on Tiger for awhile.

but dont forget that when iPhone Generation 2, or new Generations of iPods come out, with a new version of iTunes - you can bet that Leopard will be a requirement.

iGrouch
Sep 22, 2007, 10:06 AM
As in the cool effect of it rising out of the dock in a single stack of images works with the dock on the side of the screen, or just that you can do other less trivial things to it ?



I saw in a screen shot somewhere that right clicking the stack icon in the Dock gave the option to make the stack appear as an erectile fan or grid. Someone may be able to confirm this. I also remember S Jobs making a stack by selecting file icons from a folder and dragging just these to the Dock. In other words you don't have to be stuck with every app shown in an Application folder stack. What would be nice, for the Downloads stack, is a limit to the number of downloads represented in the grid based on most recent downloads. I can't bear the idea of viewing 8 x 25 icons just to access the latest file.

One thing I did see was the ability to click folders in a stack and and navigate into a new stack view of that folder's contents.

weckart
Sep 22, 2007, 10:48 AM
Or, put the older Mac in Target Disk Mode and attach it to a Mac that fulfills leopard install requirements. The older Mac will be seen as an attached HD and you can point the installation at it.

The obvious problem with that is that it will install all the kexts and drivers, which relate to the host, not the target. You will be lucky if it even boots up.

For instance, I took upgraded the hard drive in my MB, put the old drive in an external case, which I hooked up to my MBP to boot from. It did not boot past the grey swirls before it crashed with a kernel panic. Hardly surprising given the difference in logic board architecture between the MBP and the MB, even if the CPUs are broadly the same.

Transeau
Sep 22, 2007, 10:56 AM
I saw in a screen shot somewhere that right clicking the stack icon in the Dock gave the option to make the stack appear as an erectile fan or grid. Someone may be able to confirm this. I also remember S Jobs making a stack by selecting file icons from a folder and dragging just these to the Dock. In other words you don't have to be stuck with every app shown in an Application folder stack. What would be nice, for the Downloads stack, is a limit to the number of downloads represented in the grid based on most recent downloads. I can't bear the idea of viewing 8 x 25 icons just to access the latest file.

One thing I did see was the ability to click folders in a stack and and navigate into a new stack view of that folder's contents.

Here ya go

Wayfarer
Sep 22, 2007, 11:19 AM
^Gorgeous.

Customizable stacks confirmed. :p

samh004
Sep 22, 2007, 11:26 AM
but dont forget that when iPhone Generation 2, or new Generations of iPods come out, with a new version of iTunes - you can bet that Leopard will be a requirement.

It'll need to be compatible with XP or Vista too, so I don't see how Leopard will be a requirement on the mac side.

Here ya go

http://att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=85656&d=1190476588

Do that when the dock is on the right or left of the screen and I'll be happy :p

celebi23
Sep 22, 2007, 11:27 AM
^Gorgeous.

Customizable stacks confirmed. :p

That was also in 9A528d and since 9A499

psychofreak
Sep 22, 2007, 11:28 AM
It'll need to be compatible with XP or Vista too, so I don't see how Leopard will be a requirement on the mac side.
Tiger is a requirement for the new iPods, even though XP is older than Panther...

mrkramer
Sep 22, 2007, 11:29 AM
The obvious problem with that is that it will install all the kexts and drivers, which relate to the host, not the target. You will be lucky if it even boots up.
that is only if you are using the origional disks that came with your computer, if you are using a retail disk it will install all drivers unless you specifically deselect them so from a retail disk you can switch boot drives between computers.

Whistleway
Sep 22, 2007, 11:32 AM
From what I hear, this .0 is something you want to stay away from.

psychofreak
Sep 22, 2007, 11:34 AM
From what I hear, this .0 is something you want to stay away from.

Panther (10.3.0) apparently was stable (not that I used it), while Tiger (10.4.0) was not...

samh004
Sep 22, 2007, 11:37 AM
Panther (10.3.0) apparently was stable (not that I used it), while Tiger (10.4.0) was not...

10.3.0 had a major firewire issue, although whether that was a software or firmware problem I don't know ?

Derfy
Sep 22, 2007, 12:40 PM
I disagree with the .0 accounts - I've used Jaguar .0, Panther .0, and Tiger .0 with no major issues at all. I've never seen a reason to not upgrade to the newest once it comes out besides some application compatibility issues such as OnyX. I have no doubt in my mind that Leopard .0 will continue the tradition of being fine off the bat. Your mileage may vary.

CmdrLaForge
Sep 22, 2007, 12:41 PM
I also see no compelling reason to upgrade and am not impressed by what I've seen so far. The whole thing looks extremely tacky — aimed at teenybopper switchers, in my view — and the feature list is underwhelming.

As per usual, I will read what everyone has to say here upon release and make my mind up in a few months time. And it's not going near the work Macs until I've tested it out at home first.

Not the marketing features make the upgrade worth it IMHO. What I hear is that it is really fast and the many many new feature (300+) that in total make it a new and better experience.

colonels1020
Sep 22, 2007, 12:43 PM
Here's the new 9A559 intro video with the new music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rX37MBI-PQ

Blue Velvet
Sep 22, 2007, 12:51 PM
Not the marketing features make the upgrade worth it IMHO. What I hear is that it is really fast and the many many new feature (300+) that in total make it a new and better experience.


Possibly. What I have to weigh up is between the new stuff and the chance of critical third party apps not working... we couldn't move to Tiger for quite a while until Retrospect was updated. None of the Apple apps have any bearing on this at all.

But what I'll do is buy one copy straight away for evaluation and testing purposes... doesn't mean I have to like the way it looks.

Anyway, as I've said before, I know exactly what it is like around here on OS release day... and when the hubbub and wailing is dying down, I'll pick through the ashes to read the interesting posts so that I know what to look for when I set up my test Mac.

This may come as a surprise to some, but it's not necessary to love and praise everything that Apple does around here. ;)

MonkeyClaw
Sep 22, 2007, 12:53 PM
Here's the new 9A559 intro video with the new music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rX37MBI-PQ

I'm diggin the iMac commercial music, fits perfectly. God I cant wait till Leopard is out!!!

Muzzway
Sep 22, 2007, 12:59 PM
Here's the new 9A559 intro video with the new music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rX37MBI-PQ

Is that seriously it, or did you just put the iMac commercial music to the Leopard video? I sure hope it's the former.

MonkeyClaw
Sep 22, 2007, 01:00 PM
Is that seriously it, or did you just put the iMac commercial music to the Leopard video? I sure hope it's the former.

Yea I think regardless if thats a fake, that music sure does fit pretty well...

colonels1020
Sep 22, 2007, 01:00 PM
Is that seriously it, or did you just put the iMac commercial music to the Leopard video? I sure hope it's the former.
That's seriously it...

samh004
Sep 22, 2007, 01:04 PM
IIRC the intro video for Tiger was added near the end too, but you know, they could add it whenever they like.

CmdrLaForge
Sep 22, 2007, 01:09 PM
This may come as a surprise to some, but it's not necessary to love and praise everything that Apple does around here. ;)

You are absolutely right and I would definitely wait to install it on a production machine.

Peace
Sep 22, 2007, 01:10 PM
You are absolutely right and I would definitely wait to install it on a production machine.


Why ?

brianj
Sep 22, 2007, 01:14 PM
Im an ADC student member, I cant find it under downloads, where is it located?

powderblue17
Sep 22, 2007, 01:16 PM
Hopefully that music in the intro video is a placeholder because if not they should just go back to the last music because this just doesn't fit in with the fast moving opening sequence at all. That iMac commercial has the iMac moving by slowing so the music fits with that but not with the fast moving flying through space.

Muzzway
Sep 22, 2007, 01:17 PM
That's seriously it...

Hmm, that's too bad. Like the old music better.

Taylor C
Sep 22, 2007, 01:19 PM
You wouldn't want to put it on a production machine immediately due to the fact that professional applications, such as CS3, haven't been confirmed to be fully compatible with Leopard as of yet.

Blue Velvet
Sep 22, 2007, 01:20 PM
Why ?

I'll tell you why. Because third-party apps have got a proven habit of breaking on OS releases... that's why. If I can't run our RIP, then it's not going near that machine. If it breaks our database on our server, then it's no help at all; stacks or no stacks, fancy dock or not.

Peace
Sep 22, 2007, 01:22 PM
I'll tell you why. Because third-party apps have got a proven habit of breaking on OS releases... that's why. If I can't run our RIP, then it's not going near that machine. If it breaks our database on our server, then it's no help at all; stacks or no stacks, fancy dock or not.

I understand that BV.Might I suggest getting an ADC membership since you seem to be running a network type environment with multiple computers.This way yo would have ample time to test those apps.Plus i'm sure the makers of the apps are working on compatibility.



I might add even Windows has problems with various apps when a significant update comes out. e.g. Vista

Blue Velvet
Sep 22, 2007, 01:27 PM
I understand that BV.Might I suggest getting an ADC membership since you seem to be running a network type environment with multiple computers.This way yo would have ample time to test those apps.Plus i'm sure the makers of the apps are working on compatibility.

You're probably right but my work's not going to pay for that. And neither am I. We moved to Tiger at 10.4.4 after the dust had settled down; I found the reports over at MacinTouch very useful during that time. I'll buy it on release and will put it on a G4 QS that's not doing much at the mo.

Thertel88
Sep 22, 2007, 01:30 PM
Apple Mac OS X Version 10.5 Leopard by Apple (DVD-ROM - Oct 31, 2007) (Mac OS X, Mac OS X Intel)


im sure its not true because it was amazon but thats what it says

MGLXP
Sep 22, 2007, 01:34 PM
Im an ADC student member, I cant find it under downloads, where is it located?

You need to be an ADC Select or Premier member to get Mac OS X software seeds.

FF_productions
Sep 22, 2007, 01:34 PM
Apple Mac OS X Version 10.5 Leopard by Apple (DVD-ROM - Oct 31, 2007) (Mac OS X, Mac OS X Intel)


im sure its not true because it was amazon but thats what it says

Knowing Apple, they are going to release it at the END of October. They are hurrying to get Leopard out the door right now without any further delays.

G-Force
Sep 22, 2007, 01:40 PM
Here's the new 9A559 intro video with the new music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rX37MBI-PQ
I really liked the music in the iMac commercial, but in this video it doesn't fit in at all if you ask me. Really bad choice... But it's only the intro video so it's not like the end of the world. ;)

AppleWoW
Sep 22, 2007, 01:40 PM
Apple Mac OS X Version 10.5 Leopard by Apple (DVD-ROM - Oct 31, 2007) (Mac OS X, Mac OS X Intel)


im sure its not true because it was amazon but thats what it says

Yeah everyone go check it out here: http://www.amazon.com/Apple-Mac-Version-10-5-Leopard/dp/B000FK88JK/ref=pd_bbs_4/002-3682146-3028804?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1190486213&sr=8-4 before it goes down or changes.

Peace
Sep 22, 2007, 01:44 PM
Yeah everyone go check it out here: http://www.amazon.com/Apple-Mac-Version-10-5-Leopard/dp/B000FK88JK/ref=pd_bbs_4/002-3682146-3028804?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1190486213&sr=8-4 before it goes down or changes.

Amazon's been like that for 3 months.

eallison
Sep 22, 2007, 01:46 PM
So can (or will) anyone say if the whole OS has the iTunes/iPhoto style widgets now? I have to admit I will be disappointed if the OS ships with mixed-style scroll bars and widgets.

compuguy1088
Sep 22, 2007, 01:49 PM
Im an ADC student member, I cant find it under downloads, where is it located?

ADC student members from what I've read, do not get the beta access, you have to pay more for that :(.

Project
Sep 22, 2007, 01:50 PM
I think the blue aqua scrollbars stick out like a sore thumb now. Look very out of date.

Wayfarer
Sep 22, 2007, 01:50 PM
iChat now reflects current date without being open! Found this on another forum:

compuguy1088
Sep 22, 2007, 01:52 PM
I really liked the music in the iMac commercial, but in this video it doesn't fit in at all if you ask me. Really bad choice... But it's only the intro video so it's not like the end of the world. ;)

I think the music fits quite well, though at the end, it just cuts off, which is the only problem with it...

CmdrLaForge
Sep 22, 2007, 02:10 PM
Why ?

Well I thought that its quite obvious. If its a production machine it means you make your living of it. You usually don't have the time nor can you afford that it is not running smoothly and your workflow isn't broken.

bluedoggiant
Sep 22, 2007, 02:10 PM
all this leopard talk... does steve jobs know about this site??? hope he does, were waiting for results

iGrouch
Sep 22, 2007, 02:13 PM
The obvious problem with that is that it will install all the kexts and drivers, which relate to the host, not the target. You will be lucky if it even boots up.

For instance, I took upgraded the hard drive in my MB, put the old drive in an external case, which I hooked up to my MBP to boot from. It did not boot past the grey swirls before it crashed with a kernel panic. Hardly surprising given the difference in logic board architecture between the MBP and the MB, even if the CPUs are broadly the same.

Mmmm. The method I mentioned has worked for me in the past.

What happens when you normally boot is that there is a kextcache which lists the known kexts that works with the particular system that you are booting. This is part of the smoke and mirrors magic of caches and fast boot times.

If you boot the system on unknown Mac hardware it will boot but will take longer to do as the Kextcache is ignored and the boot sequence has to find the appropriate kexts. This is a rough explanation of what happens. As the target Mac is for all intents and purposes just a HD as far as the other Mac and Install disc are concerned, it might as well be an external HD. The external HD that I bring on jobs was installed from a G4 PowerMac and has booted several G4/G3models: iMacs Powerbooks and iBooks. I tend to only do this with models in or around the same vintage or older than the Powermac

As I have said I have not had problems with this method. It is not a method sanctioned by Apple so there are perhaps inherent dangers in doing it this way. I seem to remember that I have done it this way in the past where the target Mac had no DVD drive and the install was on a DVD. The other thing is that I used a full retail copy of OS X not a bundled disc associated with a particular Mac model. As you were attempting the boot Mac Book HD connected to MacBook Pro, It may not have worked as there will not have been a stand alone install Disc for OS X on Intel Macs until Leopard is released.

bluedoggiant
Sep 22, 2007, 02:24 PM
he knows everything apple, and owns leopard, check this out: http://thinksecret.com/news/0709leopard9a599.html

MrCrowbar
Sep 22, 2007, 02:25 PM
iChat now reflects current date without being open! Found this on another forum:

How did you do that screenshot? You don't seriously have a white desktop, do you? If I use Grab, do "Capture Window" on the Dock, I get no picture.
:p

Transeau
Sep 22, 2007, 02:53 PM
Do that when the dock is on the right or left of the screen and I'll be happy :p

Only the Grid while on the Left / Right

The disk utility now shows Upper and Lower Optical Drives.

shawnce
Sep 22, 2007, 03:31 PM
Im an ADC student member, I cant find it under downloads, where is it located?

You have to be a selector or premier ADC member.

Visit http://developer.apple.com/leopard/ and look in upper right corner.

he knows everything apple, and owns leopard, check this out: http://thinksecret.com/news/0709leopard9a599.html
someone is just feeding him stuff, someone who has access to Leopard seeds (like many of us do... but most of us honor our NDA with Apple).

Is is a programming language feature that means the programmer doesn't have to think about memory management. They don't have to explicity tell the OS when they want some RAM for their program and when they're done with it.

Unfortunately when a programmer stops having to think about memory there's a bigger chance of them being wasteful with it. It is a runtime and compiler feature with only a minor language aspect. Also programmers still allocate memory (objects), they just don't need to explicitly free/release it since the garbage collector will do that for them.

Memory profiles of Cocoa applications shouldn't change much from what you see today given the generational nature of the garbage collector (note the runtime is open source so not covered by NDA) and the way Cocoa applications are usually written.

nato64
Sep 22, 2007, 04:31 PM
I have the same complaints as everyone else.

- The dock is a monstrosity.
- The menu bar is tacky.
- The background windows look washed out.
- The toolbar icons on Mail and Preview look amateurish.
- Selected toolbars are too dark.
- The font smoothing technology looks worse than the competition.
- Finder now has 4 views, none of which are as useful as the tree view in Windows.
- The new help system will intimidate people. All you want is a 'lil help and what you get is Satan taking control of your computer.
- The disk management is rubbish. Try using two heavy disk using apps at once at watch the whole system fall down in a screaming heap.
- It has more background tasks than a mother of 6. Disk event recording, Spotlight indexing, backup. Spare a few seconds for my apps Guvna?
- The primary programming language has had garbage collection added. This will result in Mac apps being more bloated than other platforms. For example the Dictionary in Leopard, a simple app to display word definitions, allocates 1GB of virtual memory.

This is not a sleek wild Leopard, but a big fat Leopard lived it's whole life at the zoo.

Those are some valid points. But don't claim that "everyone" has those same issues. Most people like the new dock, from what I've seen. Now, they toned down the menu bar so it's not butt ugly which is nice. But for YEARS and YEARS all I could hear people complain about it how Mac OS X has 3 different interfaces (Aqua, Brushed Metal, and Tiger's Spotlight). Now it has one and you're calling foul?

Also, when I was helping people move over from Windows, they had NO idea how to tell which window was in front. To make it worse, they were used to full screen apps so having lots of windows and training to use Exposé took time. So it think it's FANTASTIC that Leopard makes it easier to tell which windows is up front.

On background tasks, my experience running Leopard betas (I've run everything before 527) is that Spotlight runs "like butter" (as the steve so eloquently would describe it). It indexed fast and didn't interfere with anything like Tiger. I did notice when Time Machine was backing up. Then again, that was on my 12" PowerBook G4. I think I can forgive Leopard for slowing my machine down for 3 minutes every day on an old lappy like mine.

Personally, Column view beats ANYTHING any other operating system uses. And what is the "garbage collection added" to Cocoa? Is it Core Animation?

weckart
Sep 22, 2007, 04:31 PM
Mmmm. The method I mentioned has worked for me in the past.

What happens when you normally boot is that there is a kextcache which lists the known kexts that works with the particular system that you are booting. This is part of the smoke and mirrors magic of caches and fast boot times.

If you boot the system on unknown Mac hardware it will boot but will take longer to do as the Kextcache is ignored and the boot sequence has to find the appropriate kexts. This is a rough explanation of what happens. As the target Mac is for all intents and purposes just a HD as far as the other Mac and Install disc are concerned, it might as well be an external HD. The external HD that I bring on jobs was installed from a G4 PowerMac and has booted several G4/G3models: iMacs Powerbooks and iBooks. I tend to only do this with models in or around the same vintage or older than the Powermac

As I have said I have not had problems with this method. It is not a method sanctioned by Apple so there are perhaps inherent dangers in doing it this way. I seem to remember that I have done it this way in the past where the target Mac had no DVD drive and the install was on a DVD. The other thing is that I used a full retail copy of OS X not a bundled disc associated with a particular Mac model. As you were attempting the boot Mac Book HD connected to MacBook Pro, It may not have worked as there will not have been a stand alone install Disc for OS X on Intel Macs until Leopard is released.

I am not sure I have understood you totally, but if I have then it would appear that you believe that each installation on any hardware includes all of the drivers and kexts available on the install media, and the boot sequences creates a cache telling the firmware which ones are required for the boot sequence to complete successfully, initialising all of the hardware present. I might be wrong but I don't think this is the case. Case in point, the MBP has nVidia graphics as opposed to the Intel GMA950 on the MB. That alone would cause the bootup to burp mightily unless both drivers were available, which they appear not to be. Not saying that with the right combiniation of similar hardware, you could not get something usable working. The hardware differences with the G4/G3 range seemed to be marginal given the glacial rate of Apple PPC development. Just out of interest, try using an G4 iBook (ATI graphics) install on a Powerbook G4 12" (nVidia graphics) and see how it goes. Maybe Open Firmware was better at dealing with this than EFI.

nato64
Sep 22, 2007, 04:38 PM
As a professional designer, I think I'm qualified to make a judgement on what looks professional or not. ;)

I've been with Mac OS X since the beginning. 10.0 was butt ugly. Compared to OS 9 it was awesome. But the bright colors, shiny buttons, and kid-like icons made it feel like a children's toy. XP went with that theme by making Windows look like it was made by Fisher Price.

But do you really believe that Tiger's brushed metal looks less professional than Leopard's smooth metal windows? And the folder icons that aren't tacky pinstripes? I could go on.

willybNL
Sep 22, 2007, 04:42 PM
I have the same complaints as everyone else.

- The dock is a monstrosity.
- The menu bar is tacky.
- The background windows look washed out.
- The toolbar icons on Mail and Preview look amateurish.
- Selected toolbars are too dark.
- The font smoothing technology looks worse than the competition.
- Finder now has 4 views, none of which are as useful as the tree view in Windows.
- The new help system will intimidate people. All you want is a 'lil help and what you get is Satan taking control of your computer.
- The disk management is rubbish. Try using two heavy disk using apps at once at watch the whole system fall down in a screaming heap.
- It has more background tasks than a mother of 6. Disk event recording, Spotlight indexing, backup. Spare a few seconds for my apps Guvna?
- The primary programming language has had garbage collection added. This will result in Mac apps being more bloated than other platforms. For example the Dictionary in Leopard, a simple app to display word definitions, allocates 1GB of virtual memory.

This is not a sleek wild Leopard, but a big fat Leopard lived it's whole life at the zoo.

Looks like nice list for the wish list... ( http://guides.macrumors.com/Mac_OS_X_Wish_List )

++Added that OS-X still is not able to MOVE in finder on a decent way (not even a APPLE-X, APPLE-V). And yes, apple can implement this in a way it is normal (and not the way that if you drag something to a folder with a folder/file that already exsist the original file is just gone like it is the case right now... at least move it to the trash!).

++Added that (at least X.4.10) is still unable to determine that an app is crashing (mostly firefox) making even the dock and the apple menu unresponsable so I can't quit the app. (I need to go to another app to click on the apple).

XP went with that theme by making Windows look like it was made by Fisher Price.

Finally i know where I recognised it... it was on Teletubbies! http://images.google.nl/images?q=Teletubbies+XP

daze
Sep 22, 2007, 04:43 PM
The beta looks extremely nice... Let's hope it's released soon. I have $150 dollars that're ready to leave my wallet. :)

shawnce
Sep 22, 2007, 04:50 PM
I am not sure I have understood you totally, but if I have then it would appear that you believe that each installation on any hardware includes all of the drivers and kexts available on the install media, and the boot sequences creates a cache telling the firmware which ones are required for the boot sequence to complete successfully, initialising all of the hardware present. I might be wrong but I don't think this is the case. Retail versions of Mac OS X contain all drivers needed for all hardware shipped (and supported by that version of Mac OS X) before the DVD disc in the retail box what stamped. An install from a retail disc will contain all drivers as well. The discs that come with a computer also follow the same pattern however they often contain additional drivers for that system, assuming it was a newly released system, that are not yet available from a retail version.

Anyway he is talking about the "kext cache" that exists. This is a cache of kernel extensions (kexts) that the hardware in known to need. The cache is used to speed boot times by packaging all of the kext needed by the system at boot time into a single file (/System/Library/Extensions.mkext, etc.) that can be loaded more quickly then by parsing and loading individual kexts (found under /System/Library/Extensions). If the cache is missing or doesn't contain a kext needed by the system when it boots it will fault and fallback on the slower method of looking up the needed kext. In other words the kext cache is used to speed boot times but it doesn't prevent booting if the kext is some how out-of-date or missing.

Oh EFI is in general better then OF at a lot of this stuff.

willybNL
Sep 22, 2007, 05:03 PM
iChat now reflects current date without being open! Found this on another forum:

Wow! iChat reflects a date??? WoW!
Next iCal it will do MSN... :):):D:D

:):D (yeah i know, but i did see some british humor there :):))
Really like it by the way. (thanx for the post!)

Transeau
Sep 22, 2007, 05:06 PM
As a professional designer, I think I'm qualified to make a judgement on what looks professional or not. ;)



Let's keep in mind that the Chevy HHR, Windows Vista, new Honda Civic, the Zune along with many other very ugly (and NEW) items were also designed by "Professional Designers". :)

Personally, I think 10.5 looks great, and has gotten better with each build.
If people don't like how it looks, no one is forcing them to buy it. okay, except for the people who buy new Mac's after October.

shawnce
Sep 22, 2007, 05:09 PM
++Added that (at least X.4.10) is still unable to determine that an app is crashing (mostly firefox) making even the dock and the apple menu unresponsable so I can't quit the app. (I need to go to another app to click on the apple). Command-option-escape should bring up the force quit dialog regardless of being able to the use menu. The issue is that the application hasn't actually crashed but likely deadlocked (or a few related types of failures). This can cause the menu bar to not respond while in the context of this application.

phillipjfry
Sep 22, 2007, 05:12 PM
I'm happy to report something I shouldn't but it's so friggin fantastic I can't hold out..Apple...Sue me!!


You ready?







Better sit down..........











They fixed the date on the iCal icon to reflect the actual date..


?? I am looking at my iCal icon now it says Sep 22. There is an issue with iCal? :confused:

shawnce
Sep 22, 2007, 05:15 PM
?? I am looking at my iCal icon now it says Sep 22. There is an issue with iCal? :confused: Quit iCal.

Blue Velvet
Sep 22, 2007, 05:16 PM
Let's keep in mind that the Chevy HHR, Windows Vista, new Honda Civic, the Zune along with many other very ugly (and NEW) items were also designed by "Professional Designers". :)


Industrial designers for the most part...;)

The Leopard GUI, from what I've seen, looks dreadful by Apple's standards. Maybe it's an attempt to make it comforting to shoppers comparing it to Vista. Anyway, we'll see. I reserve the right to be unconvinced at this stage... Apple are not infallible.

macguysoft
Sep 22, 2007, 05:30 PM
As a professional designer, I think I'm qualified to make a judgement on what looks professional or not. ;)

And as a non-programmer, your judgement about the OS is limited in that respect. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say but you're certainly justified in making such a judgement due to your qualifications. What necessarily would you deem unprofessional? Any specifics and reasons? No detailed explanation is necessary...

also see no compelling reason to upgrade and am not impressed by what I've seen so far. The whole thing looks extremely tacky — aimed at teenybopper switchers, in my view — and the feature list is underwhelming.


Perhaps it is underwhelming because you were overwhelmed with expectations from Apple? Pardon me for defending as you'll probably expect from a stupid "fanboy" but neither do I wish to say that you're opinion is completely wrong. It's just that in my humble opinion, Leopard is a very huge step forward when it comes to the OS itself. People tend to think that Leopard is simply a GUI change with some features but in reality, there is plenty of change. In time, we'll see some great applications from developers that takes advantage of these new technologies. Garbage Collection being another such advantage.

However, I think it's Apple's fault for using a "Top Secret" label which inevitably would increase this expectations. As it is, Leopard is more than enough of an improvement. As some people have already mentioned, there are tons of little features that eventually add up toe improve the OS experience. Leopard is definitely the best version of Mac OS X that I've seen thus yet. The latest builds have been a stable experience for me but due to so many variables, I'm sure others who do a archive install will have a variety of problems.

It seems that you tend to think..."I don't see much, therefore there isn't much good change" and of course coming from a designer, this is to be expected. Human nature also adds onto this fact that we look at things from what it seems to be rather than what it is. You look at one picture but don't look at the whole picture.

And so, Apple will care if Leopard does not sell.

Like some OS9 users didn't switch to OSX, the same will be the case for Leopard but most people will (I assure you) buy this new OS...

BTW: Have you even tried Leopard?

Blue Velvet
Sep 22, 2007, 05:48 PM
And as a non-programmer, your judgement about the OS is limited in that respect. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say but you're certainly justified in making such a judgement due to your qualifications. What necessarily would you deem unprofessional? Any specifics and reasons? No detailed explanation is necessary...

If no detailed explanation is necessary then I won't provide one. From what I've seen it looks cheap, even the rumoured Leopard disc packaging and the released intro movie. It's just getting full of visual spack... like a cheap toy; all plastic chrome, transparency and reflections.The new Dock is particularly ugly... but then again, some people like it. Some people like Vista. Doesn't mean I have to.


Perhaps it is underwhelming because you were overwhelmed with expectations from Apple?

Heh, you obviously don't know me. ;)

I've been around the block here and have seen the hype build up about OS releases, the hysteria on release day, and the inevitable disappointments and problems. I'm very cautious about OS upgrades because, as clearly stated before, they tend to break my workflow. And it takes more than some glossy features to make the upgrade case for me to be compelling... an improved Finder and Spotlight sound good though.

The OS is a means to an end. In my case, creating an environment I can be productive and creative in. It's not the end in itself.

This is all highly amusing; being on the receiving end of some Mac-head's ire because I dare to question the Emperor's new clothes. :D