Forget California, It's time to recall Microsoft

[wdlove]

I'm just so glad that I'm a Mac user. Microsoft tries to blame others for its problems. If MS coughs the world gets a cold!

According to a Wired story today, Microsoft is confused why these worms continue plaguing users when the company's made great effort to improve the patch delivery process. Microsoft says it's working with federal law enforcement to find out who's behind the dastardly deed that's giving the software monopoly yet another embarrassing black eye in the media. This is a typical Microsoft response full of proactive sound of fury, but signifying nothing helpful._ And the media's full of reporting about the pervasiveness of MSBlaster and what people can do to protect themselves against this "latest" cyber-threat.


http://www.theregister.com/content/55/32449.html

[Powerbook G5]

The reason for all these bugs and worms is simple--it's a curse brought on by Microsoft after they they first screwed Steve 20 years ago. Steve put an evil pirate's curse on anything related to Windows to slowly drive Bill insane. Muhuhahaha!

[idea_hamster]

It seems that MicroSoft think that they need to do even more for their users:

Microsoft is considering offering automatic software updates that users can then opt out of, said Jeff Jones, director of security for the Microsoft Security Business Unit. (http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/biztech/08/22/microsoft.patch.reut/index.html)

Evidently, that infuriating "Mr. Clippy" from Word just wasn't good enough. I can't wait for the mayhem that will ensue when MS tries an opt-out automatic update policy. Really it's worse than spam.

The day that MS announces that they're implementing automatic opt-out updating to their OS, I'm sticking my entire 401K into AAPL.

[Backtothemac]

well, worms, and viruses really come down to common sense. I have never had a virus on a PC, and for good reason.

Still, Windows needs a major, major overhaul.

[themadchemist]

Microsoft forgot one small problem. The biggest virus to plague a PC-user's computer is Windows. I suggest that people grab the Critical Security Patch for Windows XP 43629, a.k.a. a PowerMac G5 + OS X. It's not free, but worth the cost.

Powerbook G5: Pirate curse? Let me guess, Pirates of Cupertino: Curse of the Black Cursor

idea_hamster: I totally agree. Microsoft updates are like executable spam. They could name their automated downloads after their founder and call them ASS-Automated Spam Saver.

[OutThere]

Ah. When will people learn.

[xpormac]

Originally posted by themadchemist
Microsoft forgot one small problem. The biggest virus to plague a PC-user's computer is Windows. I suggest that people grab the Critical Security Patch for Windows XP 43629, a.k.a. a PowerMac G5 + OS X. It's not free, but worth the cost.



eh...no, its not worth switching from windows to only os x.

[idea_hamster]

Originally posted by xpormac
eh...no, its not worth switching from windows to only os x.
Ahh...but that's the beauty of it -- it's not just OS X that you get! You get:

iApps (iMovie, iDVD, iTunes, iChat, ietc.)
iTunes Music Store
Fire Wire 800
ADC, if you want
Soon-to-be bluetooth mouse and keyboard
Free professional development tools
Wonderful design

...and if that wasn't enough, you'll only have to restart once in a blue moon.

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by idea_hamster
It seems that MicroSoft think that they need to do even more for their users:

Microsoft is considering offering automatic software updates that users can then opt out of, said Jeff Jones, director of security for the Microsoft Security Business Unit. (http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/biztech/08/22/microsoft.patch.reut/index.html)

-idea_hamster

This is precisely why I'm worried about the Wintel side of me - further loss of freedom and choice.

I bought this thing, I want to use it. Do not take choice away from me.

Oh, and don't worry about xpormac, he's clearly inexperienced both here in the forums, and with OS X. Until he thinks for himself, and makes the choice to try it out, let's not feed him.

[xpormac]

Originally posted by patrick0brien

Oh, and don't worry about xpormac, he's clearly inexperienced both here in the forums, and with OS X. Until he thinks for himself, and makes the choice to try it out, let's not feed him.

excuse me? I have a mac and a windows machine, I like them both, but like windows more. :rolleyes:

Just because I don't like mac more doesn't mean I'm wrong.

and yes im new and inexperienced in these forums :D

[themadchemist]

Originally posted by xpormac
excuse me? I have a mac and a windows machine, I like them both, but like windows more. :rolleyes:

Just because I don't like mac more doesn't mean I'm wrong.

and yes im new and inexperienced in these forums :D

I hope, at least, that you don't like security updates? I have come to the mature conclusion that there is a lot of nice hardware in the PC world, but that there are serious advantages to one company extensively testing and controlling what goes into its machines. On the other hand, to get a PC monster, you've got to build it yourself, and are never sure how well your parts really work together. And I personally don't think that the hardware justifies the use of Windows. Windows itself kills your performance gains on hardware.

But I suppose it all comes down to choice. I bet you're a hardcore gamer.

...and if that wasn't enough, you'll only have to restart once in a blue moon.

as opposed to once in a blue screen of death? yeah, you're right.

[xpormac]

And I personally don't think that the hardware justifies the use of Windows. Windows itself kills your performance gains on hardware.



Explain how it kills your performance gains in hardware? lol


On the other hand, to get a PC monster, you've got to build it yourself, and are never sure how well your parts really work together.

No, not true, you can buy a top of the line system from most companies out there.


I bet you're a hardcore gamer.


Nope, Hardcore 3d modeling guy. Don't know why you would say this though.

[Powerbook G5]

If he prefers his PC and Windows XP, then great for him. It's his preference and there are benefits. I can't tell you how much I miss building my own "beast" with my bare hands with nothing but spare parts, lots of dreams, and friends in high places (my best friend's uncle works as a prototype engineer for IBM). There's a lot of cool hardware (and a lot cheaper to get your hands on) with the PC side, too. I have to admit, it would be damn cool to configure a 2.7 GHz Athlon 64 laptop running a 64-bit Linux. It'd beat the hell out of waiting a year for Motorola to give Apple a 250 MHz speed bump and never delivering on the goods on time, that's for sure. I personally would not want to ever go back to Windows and deal with all that crap associated with it, but there are aspects about the PC universe that are pretty nice. If the guy likes his XP system over his OS X system, then great...one less person to be in front of me in line for Panther/new Mac pre-orders :)

[xpormac]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
If the guy likes his XP system over his OS X system, then great...one less person to be in front of me in line for Panther/new Mac pre-orders :)


positive outlook, great post Powerbook G5

[mico]

For those that haven't read this. Its kinda long but very interesting:

http://news.com.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html?tag=lh

[xpormac]

We looked at Apple, but that's owned in part by Microsoft. (Editor's note: Microsoft invested $150 million in Apple in 1997.)

Wow, I didn't know that, hehe.

[Powerbook G5]

I don't get why all the Mac hating friends I have say "Microsoft owns Apple". They have stock in Apple, but Bill doesn't sit there telling Apple what to do.

[wdlove]

Originally posted by xpormac
Wow, I didn't know that, hehe.

I believe that is about the time that Bill Gates showed on the screen during Steve Jobs Keynote at MW Boston in 1997!

[Powerbook G5]

Man, if only a hot chick in an Apple shirt could have ran through the room and fling a sledge hammer towards the screen...one can dream...:D

[idea_hamster]

I particularly liked this:

from c|net:
"Microsoft chairman Bill Gates said today that the software giant will invest $150 million in Apple.... The investment still doesn't give Apple a coherent strategy for turning things around...."
Well, I suppose back in 1997, they hadn't seen anything yet. Something tells me that there was a coherent strategy and it seems to be working pretty well.

[Vector]

If i remember correctly the 150 million investment was part of a deal between microsoft and apple to settle certain patent disputes as well as assure that microsoft would not abandone the mac os platform. Microsoft agreed to provide their office suite for 5 years with as many updates as the windows version recieved. Microsoft was required to hold the stock for at least 3 years without selling any off so that they would not be tempted to pull out of the contract as it would hurt apple's stock price and thus their own investment.

It was done right before the boston macworld where jobs announced the new "partnership" of the two companies.

It would be interesting to see if microsoft still had any of the stock or if it had sold it off. It would be public information, but I'm not sure where it could be found.

[idea_hamster]

Originally posted by Vector
It would be interesting to see if microsoft still had any of the stock or if it had sold it off. It would be public information, but I'm not sure where it could be found.
I would be interested to know too. I did a quick check of Microsoft's latest Form 10-Q filed with the SEC (their May quarterly report). The report doesn't mention Apple Computer or AAPL (Apple's ticker symbol), nor does it give asset details on the balance sheet. :shrug:

[Powerbook G5]

I always figured they sold back the stock. If so, good ridence to bad company! Once we get a good office suite program for OS X, I wouldn't mind if Steve could go to Microsoft and Bill and tell them where they can take their software and in which places they could cram it. :)

[GeeYouEye]

They did. IIRC, almost immediately afterward.

[idea_hamster]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
Once we get a good office suite program for OS X...
I totally agree -- I've been hoping for Apple to buy out (1st choice) Nisus Writer or (2nd) Mariner. I think that Nisus was a better program for word processing, but Mariner has a very good word processor and a related spreadsheet program. (I always thought that Nisus's superb multi-language with right-to-left text really jibed with the Mac mentality -- but that's probably just egotism ;) )

If Apple bought Mariner and folded FileMaker back in, they's have a pretty snappy office solution with Keynote.

[VIREBEL661]

Originally posted by xpormac
Wow, I didn't know that, hehe.

OMG, not this crap again... Apple has BILLIONS big guy, seriously. They didn't need Bill's money, thank you very much. Somehow, whenever Mac users post stuff about how much they dislike windoze or whatever, there's always somebody that wastes everyones time by posting smack about the Mac on Mac boards. Heck, if I can't be a Mac fan on a Mac board, where to then? Windowze is junk. Will they fix it someday? I dunno. Everytime I use it for work, school, or whatever it crashes and burns (XP, 2K, you name it - your mileage may vary, I speak of personal experience, and multitasking? Puuuuhlllleeeeaaaazzzee). I've always been a big Mac fan, and a HUGE UNIX fan - so my world is pretty sweet right now. If you can't say something nice, then GO AWAY!

Thank you very much!

[VIREBEL661]

Originally posted by wdlove
I believe that is about the time that Bill Gates showed on the screen during Steve Jobs Keynote at MW Boston in 1997!

I remember the booing!:D

[xpormac]

Originally posted by VIREBEL661
OMG, not this crap again... Apple has BILLIONS big guy, seriously. They didn't need Bill's money, thank you very much. Somehow, whenever Mac users post stuff about how much they dislike windoze or whatever, there's always somebody that wastes everyones time by posting smack about the Mac on Mac boards. Heck, if I can't be a Mac fan on a Mac board, where to then? Windowze is junk. Will they fix it someday? I dunno. Everytime I use it for work, school, or whatever it crashes and burns (XP, 2K, you name it - your mileage may vary, I speak of personal experience, and multitasking? Puuuuhlllleeeeaaaazzzee). I've always been a big Mac fan, and a HUGE UNIX fan - so my world is pretty sweet right now. If you can't say something nice, then GO AWAY!

Thank you very much!


.....huh....?

[BrandonRP0123]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
Man, if only a hot chick in an Apple shirt could have ran through the room and fling a sledge hammer towards the screen...one can dream...:D

''and you'll see why Mac OS X won't be like Windows XP''

[BrandonRP0123]

Mac versus PC is yet another pissing contest in what we call life.

It's like arguing religion, political party or even sexual preference.

There's geeks out there that argue Linux versus FreeBSD, or argue even the different linux versions AMD or Intel? bash or tcsh? vi or emacs? coffee or tea? coke or pepsi? Ford or Chevy?

There's no right or wrong. There are events that happen that make the opposing favorite the knight in shining armor - but neither side ever wins grounds or arguments. We know what we believe is best and so do they. While they might think we're ignorant and we might think they're ignorant - everyone is different and thus there isn't a right or wrong.

The only difference in our argument is market share.

EDIT:
This is just the normal course of affairs with two competing companies. If there wasn't Apple there would be Microsoft - a pure monopoly. We wouldn't want that now, would we?

[BrandonRP0123]

Originally posted by VIREBEL661
I remember the booing!:D

For a minute there I thought you said `boioioiong''. Beavis and Butthead was on earlier and it's time for bed. Forgive me.

[themadchemist]

Originally posted by xpormac
Explain how it kills your performance gains in hardware? lol

No, not true, you can buy a top of the line system from most companies out there.

Nope, Hardcore 3d modeling guy. Don't know why you would say this though.

Windows kills your performance gains by ofsetting them. The fact that Windows itself is pretty bloated and inefficient means that extra power is necessary for equal performance.

You can buy a top of the line system from most companies out there, but those systems are still generally a piecing together of a lot of random parts without a terrible amount of thinking. For example, PC companies' cases are simply small modifications on generic cases whereas Apple pours a lot of R&D into optimizing the efficiency and aesthetics of its computers through case design. Also, one of those most important components, the operating system, is made by a third-party in the case of PC manufacturers. On the other hand, since Apple makes the operating system, it can ensure that the software and hardware play together nicely.

And I suggested that you might be a hardcore gamer because from my experience, that category of computer users is the one that most vocally demonstrates its preference for Windows. Understandably so, for compatability and graphics card reasons.

With the disparity in graphics hardware between Macs and PCs now, I might see how you would prefer a PC for your 3d modeling. However, traditionally, design has been the domain of the Mac.

BrandonRP0123: The futility of an argument has never served as a sufficient reason for people to stop arguing. :D

[Powerbook G5]

There is one good thing about PCs...you can always run Unix/Linux on them pretty decently. I nearly went for that option before I went to Apple instead. 4 years ago it was amazing how ahead of the technology curve Apple was compared to the PC market. They still are, but Motorola has definitely slowed them down allowing the PC market to catch up. Not to mention, any Mac looks better than the butt ugly Gateway that I was using before.

[xpormac]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
They still are, but Motorola has definitely slowed them down allowing the PC market to catch up. Not to mention, any Mac looks better than the butt ugly Gateway that I was using before.


lol, no. Macs are not ahead of PC technology. As much as you would like to think, PC technology is getting better every day, yet, it takes a year or so for an updated processor from apple to come out. Its not just processors either, www.tomshardware.com new stuff always in development :D


Saying a mac looks better than the butt ugly Gateway is so true, but Gateway is a very low quality brand, not much to expect. I really do hope though, that just because a desktop looks all "pretty" you don't buy if for that reason :rolleyes:

[Powerbook G5]

How many PCs have Firewire 400? Not many...how many have Firewire 800? None...how many have Gigabit Ethernet? Not many...yet even PowerBooks have them. How many PCs out there can you get with 8 gigs RAM? How many years has Apple had 802.11b before a single PC had it? Quite a few...how many PCs have 64 bit processors shipping right now (not servers or workstations but being able to get a Dell or a Compaq or an Acer or anything with one) none that I see...how many have had DVD burners for the past few years? Not that many...how many use more efficent RISC processors? How many have bluetooth built in? Not very many...how many PCs can you get with dual Pentium 4s? None...I am sure I can go on for quite some time...

[Powerbook G5]

How many PCs have Firewire 400? Not many...how many have Firewire 800? None...how many have Gigabit Ethernet? Not many...yet even PowerBooks have them. How many PCs out there can you get with 8 gigs RAM? How many years has Apple had 802.11b before a single PC had it? Quite a few...how many PCs have 64 bit processors shipping right now (not servers or workstations but being able to get a Dell or a Compaq or an Acer or anything with one) none that I see...how many have had DVD burners for the past few years? Not that many...how many use more efficent RISC processors? How many have bluetooth built in? Not very many...how many PCs can you get with dual Pentium 4s? None...I am sure I can go on for quite some time...

[etoiles]

The question is not 'how many', the question is 'could you get it if YOU needed it ?' and the answer to most questions is 'yes'...and more.

64bit obteron systems have been available for a couple months now, they are not mainstream but neither is the G5 at this point. You can't get dual pentium4's but a single 3.06Ghz P4 is still faster than your dual 1.25 G4, so who cares. You can get a Xeon (or opteron or whatever) if you need more power...

I still much prefer macs, but Apple being ahead of the technology curve (just hardware/feature wise) is a myth. But they shine at quality and integration...and looks, of course :D

[idea_hamster]

The Sony PCs have FW400 -- they call it iLink. The rest rely on USB 2.0, which isn't as good.
8GB RAM and 64-bit systems is actually the same point, since it's the 64-bit nature that lets the G5 use more than 4GB RAM.
As for RISC, well, that's why the PC world has umpteen-GHz processors. Fast and stupid vs. slow and smart -- take your pick.
The other stuff has some substance, but I've always thought that the real point here is this: Assuming that Macs and PCs are, in fact, comparable in features and speed, why would you choose the system that suffers from virus problems, worm problems, instability and insecurity?

[xpormac]

Originally posted by idea_hamster
Assuming that Macs and PCs are, in fact, comparable in features and speed, why would you choose the system that suffers from virus problems, worm problems, instability and insecurity?


two things : firewall and antivirs software

wala...no problems, with a fast, speedy computer, for less than $1000.



Remember, macs can still be pron to these things.

[themadchemist]

Originally posted by xpormac
lol, no. Macs are not ahead of PC technology. As much as you would like to think, PC technology is getting better every day, yet, it takes a year or so for an updated processor from apple to come out. Its not just processors either, www.tomshardware.com new stuff always in development :D


Saying a mac looks better than the butt ugly Gateway is so true, but Gateway is a very low quality brand, not much to expect. I really do hope though, that just because a desktop looks all "pretty" you don't buy if for that reason :rolleyes:

what "new stuff" are you talking about? Things like hard drives, external periphs., etc., are all the same for Macs v. PCs.

Graphics cards, Macs are behind.
RAM, the 400Mhz RAM is not THE THE best, but how many PCs do you see with 466?
The hard drives were a concern before, too, but Apple is packaging some very nice hard drives with the G5.
Processors? Macs were behind on bus before, but now they are ahead. The Intel architecture is just bad. AMD is a little better, pioneering the 64-bit in workstations and hyperthreading, but it still has the problems of its competitor. Adding a whole bunch of specialized instructions just to compensate for that CISC architecture is what causes all the heating issues.

SO maybe those are the "new stuff" PCs are coming out with every day: Fans & Power supplies to keep up with the over-heating, over-draining processor.

And to compare the product cycle of the Mac in the last few years of slow Motorola development with what is likely to be much quicker development (Fishkill willing!) is really quite foolish...No, not a fair comparison at all.

But that is just my perspective on the matter. One one hand, I disagree with many, many other people in that I believe that the Mac vs. PC issue can lead to a healthy, informative debate, in which both sides learn a lot, provided we stick with technical issues instead of stooping down to Bill Gaytz SUXORZ! W00T! W00T! DIE MICROSUX! HAHAHAHA. While I might keep my opinion and you yours, the exchange of information could do us both good. On the other hand, I think that you are here more to incite the aforementioned negative response so that you may sit back and laugh at "those immature Mac fanatics." Why do I believe this? You haven't really founded your argument in any technical evidence, but just cited a large compendium of information on tomshardware.com, which is by the way a great site. Can you show me anything specific? Anything that demonstrates all the multi-faceted leaps and bounds of the PC world? If you can, that's great. But we can do without your condescending "LOL"s thrown about and your pats on the back when we decide not to point out the flaws in your arguments (see xpormac's reponse to PowerbookG5).

Thanks. And if you'd like, we could have a more constructive discussion on this matter.

[themadchemist]

Originally posted by xpormac
two things : firewall and antivirs software

wala...no problems, with a fast, speedy computer, for less than $1000.



Remember, macs can still be pron to these things.

Not to the same degree...This is no credit to Apple, but credit to the unpopularity of the Macintosh platform. Who would want to wreak havoc on 3% of the market, when he could wreak havoc on 91%? Simple common sense. Much less likely to catch the attention of major news outlets by disgruntling a few Mac owners.

And antivirus software causes performance degradation. Firewalls, also, aren't perfect and can cause inconveniences when attempting to engage in certain safe data tranmissions with individuals outside of the firewall.

[idea_hamster]

Originally posted by xpormac ...a fast, speedy computer, for less than $1000. Remember, macs can still be pron[e] to these things.
True, that Macs are not invulnerable, just not a common target.

But I don't think that the $1000 will get you a PC that has everything you get with a Mac (I'm including iApps, SuperDrive, etc.).

And none of that cures the "Windows has encountered a fatal exception and must close" business that I get at work.

[xpormac]

Originally posted by idea_hamster
And none of that cures the "Windows has encountered a fatal exception and must close" business that I get at work.


Maybe I take care of my PC more than most, but I have never encountered that before. Nor have I had a blue screen "of death" or a crash or freeze up on windows xp.


But I don't think that the $1000 will get you a PC that has everything you get with a Mac


For $1,000, I could build one hell of a system, dvd/cdwriter 3.2 ghz processor, 120 gig hd, ect. As for software needs....<thank you kazaa :p >

[etoiles]

Originally posted by idea_hamster
The Sony PCs have FW400 -- they call it iLink. The rest rely on USB 2.0, which isn't as good.
8GB RAM and 64-bit systems is actually the same point, since it's the 64-bit nature that lets the G5 use more than 4GB RAM.
As for RISC, well, that's why the PC world has umpteen-GHz processors. Fast and stupid vs. slow and smart -- take your pick.
The other stuff has some substance, but I've always thought that the real point here is this: Assuming that Macs and PCs are, in fact, comparable in features and speed, why would you choose the system that suffers from virus problems, worm problems, instability and insecurity?

you can get a FW400 PCI card for about $25, and a FW800 for $80 (or less). It might not come standard in most cases, but it is there if you need it.
Regarding the processors, RISC might use less power but then there is low power alternatives on the PC side as well... and the superiority of RISC is overrated IMHO... the G5 is not 'crushing the competition' as advertised. It might be a more elegant (little cheaper, less power) solution, but it just gets them up to par with existing Intel/AMD offerings speedwise...and you still need two G4's to compete with one pentium.

What I am trying to say is that the technology is out there and everybody can use it. Apple doesn't really have any superior 'secret weapon'. The real advantage of Apple is a solid platform by limiting the lineup and using same technologies accross the board. This, coupled with a tight OS makes for a great end-user experience, which is my main concern and the reason why I love macs. But I also own a PC for other reasons (software, price, viewport performance). Don't limit yourself by religious beliefs, swing both ways...

:D

[Powerbook G5]

"Windows has performed and illegal operation and will close" Damn...guess they stole something else! :D

I agree with the fact that sure, you can get a PC for $1000, but the Macs you are comparing that to have DVD burners, gigabit ethernet, all the cool iApps, OS X, airport extreme, firewire, .Mac capability (if you have the service), and if you add up all that in a PC, you get that PC for a *whole lot* more than that Mac. As far as the fact that you can protect your PC with antivirus and firewall software, we have both on our PCs and still they get virused even with all that added protection. Half the time it's because my family is gullible and naive, so they do stuff and open stuff they shouldn't. Then there is the Opteron issue. Granted, you can get one, but they are server/workstation class computers, not the kind you can go to Best Buy and get for $2000. It's kind of funny that even though I said exluding it, it was still brought up. I don't see too many people out there buying them. It's like buying an Xserve for doing casual web browsing and gaming. They are different markets. Anyway, back onto topic...the biggest thing that sets the platforms apart is that I cannot run Mac OS on a PC. I spent my whole life on DOS/Windows and I just got fed up with the crappy user experience and being dicked around by what Microsoft wants you to do. It doesn't much matter what is under the hood, either way, at the end of the day, I want to be using my Macintosh because I get a much more satisfying experience doing simple things as clicking around on the desktop. Not to mention all the wealth of power and flexibility of Unix under all that experience.

[xpormac]

Originally posted by etoiles
Don't limit yourself by religious beliefs, swing both ways...

:D


great post, and this is exactly what I do :)

[etoiles]

Originally posted by xpormac
[B]Maybe I take care of my PC more than most, but I have never encountered that before. Nor have I had a blue screen "of death" or a crash or freeze up on windows xp.




you sure you turn your PC on ? :p
I had apps crash on Win2K on any PC I used (4 over the last 3years at home and work)... to the point where I got so used to it that it doesn't even bother me anymore (just makes using the mac even sweeter)

[xpormac]

Originally posted by etoiles
you sure you turn your PC on ? :p



**checks laptop brand**

-Compaq-


Yup, pretty positive :p

[Powerbook G5]

I use both. At school I have an on campus job in the computer lap keeping both the Macs and the PCs up and running and networking like they should. I am also like some sort of IT on call in the res hall of my dorm floor since half the people there are burnt out junkies who don't see to know how to use a mouse, let alone troubleshoot their problems. I grew up building, upgrading, modding, and using PCs so I have had experience with all kinds of PCs. I just prefer Macs so much more. A great deal of it is just the annoyances of Windows that drive me up the wall. I wouldn't mind installing Linux on a PC box and just be done with it, but I doubt my parents would like do deal with using Linux on the Dell. It's too bad, I bet it'd be pretty sweet.

[idea_hamster]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
I have an on campus job in the computer lap keeping both the Macs and the PCs up and running and networking like they should.
Have you ever paid attention to the percentage of your time spent maintaining the Macs vs. maintaining the PCs? (Relative to the proportion of Macs to PCs at the school, of course.)

If it's true that admin is the same amount of effort on both systems, I'd would be more likely to think that maybe my problems at work are due to sub-standard IT people (rather than sub-standard T, that is!).

[Powerbook G5]

Well, the PCs all run Windows 2000, so they are about as stable as you can get with a Windows OS. The big problem is the fact that the security programs for the Windows side are a real PITA to deal with and configuring the PCs to network is not nearly as painless as it is to get the Macs to work with the network. As far as the time it takes/number of problems with the computers, it's nearly identical for either. The big problem is just keeping the network connection up since the provider tends to have problems keeping the connection constant. The only problem with the job is that $400 a semester isn't nearly enough money to justify having to deal with configuring the 100+ PCs and working with Windows everyday!

[NavyIntel007]

Originally posted by xpormac
great post, and this is exactly what I do :)

um... are we still talking about computers here??

[themadchemist]

totally off subject BUT

it seems that xpormac has risen from newb to member by posting in this thread alone.

congrats!

[patrick0brien]

-xpormac, etoiles

Despite your fair and well versed words, the facts just don't support your position of Apple not being ahead of the Technology curve.

Apple is the technology curve.

Pretty much everything we take for granted on a PC, was originally pioneered on an Apple or Macintosh and this still holds true today.

Without Apple, it would be doubtful that we'd be even using Firewire (Apple invented), CD-ROMs (Apple pioneered), Mice (Apple pioneered), a GUI (Apple pioneered), or even have a personal computer at all (Apple invented).

It's amazing to see the excitement that the members of the WinTel oligopoly treat a 'new' thing, when Mac users have usually have is for a number of years. WiFi built in seems to be the latest example of this.

[etoiles]

Originally posted by patrick0brien

Apple is the technology curve.


I think Apple is more something like the 'usability curve'. They 'invented' the personal computer by making a computer usable and affordable by a larger crowd, they did not invent computers. They pioneered mice and the GUI but did not invent them. Macs might have been the first computers to come standard with a CD-Rom drive (maybe ?) but Apple did not invent them, and they were used on other systems by then. What about IDE, PCI, AGP, USB etc. ? All standard 'PC' technologies used by Apple. I know Apple has made some excellent hardware developments, but it is usually available in some form on PC's as well...

But I don't think that is a problem or even the question here. Let other companies develop new technologies and let Apple focus on the integration...develop products from a user perspective, asking 'why ?' before 'how ?'. Make things better by design. Like the iPod, for example. And everything software of course.

This means that macs will probably never lead the race from a purely technical point of view (speed, latest 'gimmicks'...) but chances are they will always provide for a better user experience.

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by etoiles
I think Apple is more something like the 'usability curve'. They 'invented' the personal computer by making a computer usable and affordable by a larger crowd, they did not invent computers. They pioneered mice and the GUI but did not invent them. Macs might have been the first computers to come standard with a CD-Rom drive (maybe ?) but Apple did not invent them, and they were used on other systems by then. What about IDE, PCI, AGP, USB etc. ? All standard 'PC' technologies used by Apple. I know Apple has made some excellent hardware developments, but it is usually available in some form on PC's as well...

-etoiles

Almost true. Useability simply means that they took someone else's idea and made in for useable through either accessibility of user friendlyness.

However, this is not the case I was making.

Your statements about IDE, PCI, And AGP are correct, they saw that Intel's solutions were better?/easier? and integrated them, and they became more useable as a result of the pairing with the OS.

However, it is an historcal fact that Apple - well Steves Jobs and Wozniak actually invented the personal computer. Before then all that there was were minicomputers like the Altair. It's written in the library of congress.

Also Apple Invented the CD-ROM via messing with a CD player. Of course, this is one such device that someone else would have thought of too - I'll conced that.

Apple invented FireWire from the ground up in 1986. And they were a member of the board that drew up USB - so they "Invented" their little part. And they were the first to mass market it.

We can split hairs as to who invented what, we could say that Apple didn't really invent FireWire because they "integrated" parts like Copper wires, insulation and binary code that were all invented by others before. So I have to strongly disagree with your "Useability" argument, as Apple had the forethought to put ideas together and sell them long before others.

So, here's a list, feel free to look it up if you think I'm being a fanatic. Others on this board know very well, I speak often from facts, so good luck.

Note: This is a fairly comprehensive list, and is continually developing, so if you have a correction or addition, please let me know, and provide me sources to verify. This list actually starts with the abacus, but for the sake of your eyes, I though I'd clip it at the start of this lovely medium we're using...

Year: 1968
Event: First Appearance Of The Modern GUI
Entity: Douglas Englebart
Notes: Mouse, Keyboard, Keypad, Window Heirarchy

Year: 1969
Event: ARPANET
Entity: U.S. D.O.D. A.R.P.A
Notes: Foundation of the Internet

Year: 1971
Event: Advent of E-Mail
Entity: Ray Tomlinson, Principal Engineer, BBN Technologies
Notes: New use of the @ symbol

Year: 1971
Event: First Microprocessor
Entity: Intel
Notes: 4004 at 60kHz

Year: 1972
Event: First Video Game
Entity: Atari
Notes: Pong

Year: 1972
Event: Start of the Video Game industry
Entity: Atari
Notes: June 28, 1972

Year: 1973
Event: Advent of Ethernet
Entity: Bob Metcalfe

Year: 1974
Event: First Microcomputer
Entity: MITS
Notes: Altair 8800

Year: 1975
Event: Incorporation of Micro-Soft (Later Microsoft)
Entity: Bill Gates/Paul Allen

Year: 1976
Event: Incorporation of Apple Computer
Entity: Steve Jobs/Steve Wozniac

Year: 1976
Event: First Personal Computer
Entity: Jobs/Wozniac

Year:???
Event: Invention of the Laser Disc
Entity:???

Year: 1979
Event: First Modern Spreadsheet
Entity: Personal Software
Notes: VisiCalc for the Apple II

Year: 1979
Event: Advent of the Compact Disc (CD)
Entity:???

Year: 1981
Event: First Portable Computer
Entity: Osborne

Year: 1981
Event: First GUI-based OS available to purchase
Entity: Xerox PARC
Notes: Star Information System - Designed for Workstations. Steve Jobs paid Xerox for employees to help him Develop what would later be the first commecial GUI - the Mac OS

Year: 1981
Event: First Mainstream OS
Entity: Microsoft
Notes: DOS (Disk Operating System) Largest of three codebases purchased from Seattle Computer Products, all combined to make up DOS.

Year: 1982
Event: Definition and first use of an Emoticon, called a Smiley :-)
Entity: Scott E. Fahlman
Notes: Sept. 19, 1982, at Carnegie Mellon University

Year: 1983
Event: First Commercial Mouse
Entity: Mouse Microsystems
Notes: Built for the IBM PC

Year: 1983
Event: First Mainstream/Consumer GUI
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Original paradigm purchased from Xerox PARC and reworked for consumer LISA, eventually became the MacOS

Year: 1983
Event: First Mainstream/Consumer Mouse
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: For the LISA

Year: 1984
Event: Introduction Of The Macintosh
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: The successful version of the LISA

Year: 1985
Event: Introduction of Windows
Entity: Microsoft

Year: 1986
Event: First RISC Microprocessor
Entity: John Cocke/IBM Reseach
Notes: ROMP

Year: 1986
Event: FireWire Invented
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Later to be granted the standard 1394 in 1995 by the IEEE

Year: 1988
Event: First CD-ROM Player
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Introduced in March

Year: 1989
Event: Introduction of HTML and the World Wide Web
Entity: Tim Berners-Lee of CERN
Notes: Considered the Father of the modern Internet

Year: 1989
Event: First Modern RISC Microprocessor
Entity: Intel
Notes: i860

Year: 1991
Event: First Built-In CD-ROM
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Centris Line

Year: 1991
Event: First Built-In Video In-Out
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Quadra 800/AV

Year: 1991
Event: First Mainstream Voice Recognition (Standard in OS)
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Quadra 800/AV

Year: 1993
Event: First Personal Digital Assistant (PDA)
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Newton MessagePad 100. BONUS: Term PDA Coined by then Apple CEO John Sculley a year before at the 1992 Consumer Electronics Show.

Year: 1993
Event: First Device Using Handwriting Recognition As Primary Means Of Data Entry
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Newton MessagePad 100.

Year: 1993
Event: First Web Browser Launched: World Wide Web Enters Mainstream
Entity: NCSA (w/Marc Andreessen)
Notes: Mosaic. Alpha in January, Beta in March, Launch in April

Year: 1994
Event: First Trackpad
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: PowerBook 500 Line

Year: 1994
Event: First Mainstream/Consumer RISC chipset
Entity: AIM (Apple, IBM, Motorola Alliance)
Notes: PowerPC 601 Chip for the Apple PowerMac Line

Year: 1995
Event: FireWire Adopted By The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE)
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Assigned standard number 1394

Year: 1996
Event: Advent of the DVD: The first DVD player is released in Japan
Notes: November 6th 1996

Year: 1998
Event: First Built-In DVD ROM
Entity:???

Year: 1999
Event: First Mainstream/Consumer Supercomputer
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: G4 Yikes Line (400MHz @ 3.2GFLOPS classified as Supercomputer By U.S. Gov't: [>1GFLOPs])

Year: 1999
Event: First Mainstream [Built-In] Use of Wireless Networking using 802.11 (b specifically) Across all product lines
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Branded AirPort. Antennae built into all Apple Computers as standard equipment, and software into OS.

Year: 2000
Video Editing Becomes Basic Available Feature
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: iMovie

Year: 2000
Event: First Mainstream UNIX platform designed for use by end users
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: OS X

Year: 2001
Event: First Built-In Consumer DVD Burning Capability
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: G4 Minitower intoduced 1/9/01 as MWSF with Superdrive and iDVD

Year: 2003
Event: First 64-Bit Microprocessor-Based Desktop Personal Computer
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: G5 with the IBM PowerPC 970 Processor, 1Ghz Frontside Bus and Hyperthreading, Introduced 6/23

Year: 2003
Event: First Personal Computer with Built-In Optical Audio ports
Entity: Apple Computer
Notes: Afore-mentioned G5. Introduced 6/23

[etoiles]

hehe, thanks for the list. Very impressive...

Ok, we agree that Apple does a great job at pushing new technologies.

But I cannot help making some comments regarding your list. I just like to play devil's advocate ;) :

"First Mainstream/Consumer Supercomputer" was it really the first 'consumer' computer to break the 1GFlop barrier ? I remember some controversy at the time already (might be another one of those definition problems, see below).

"First Mainstream [Built-In] Use of Wireless Networking using 802.11 (b specifically) Across all product lines" Well, let's say wireless networking is encouraged. Because to be honest, I still need to buy a card, just like for the PC...even if the ease of use makes a big difference.

"First Mainstream UNIX platform designed for use by end users" Ok, but I could also say 'about time they came out with a modern OS !'

"First 64-Bit Microprocessor-Based Desktop Personal Computer" A familiar one. A Boxxtech running an Opteron ($2391) is a workstation of course, while a 1.6 G5 with the same amount of ram ($2374) and slightly bigger size is a Desktop Personal Computer...yeah right.

"First Personal Computer with Built-In Optical Audio ports" Maybe, but you can buy PC's with an optical audio port card (as cheap as $19). Integration vs. upgradeability/flexibility, there is pros and cons.

again, just playing ...ehm...the devil himself.

:p

[idea_hamster]

If folks are interested in another excellent resource for Apple firsts (in addition to our own superb historian, patrick0brian), Scott Kelby's book, Macintosh...the Naked Truth (http://www.scottkelbybooks.com/new/MacTruth.html) covers lots of stuff (like printing standards) that Apple pioneered.

The book is a great look at what it's like to be a Mac user -- the good and the ... well ... the price we pay for the good, from someone who has a wealth of Mac experience. (And it's got some good ammo for those Mac-vs-PC pissing contests, too!)

Book stores carry it, so if you think that Kelby is too big for his britches (what with Mac Design Magazine, his free Photoshop talks at the Apple Store in Soho, etc.) then you can just stiff him the $20 and page through it. I bought one and "conveniently" leave it out for company.

[montecristo]

Originally posted by idea_hamster
I would be interested to know too. I did a quick check of Microsoft's latest Form 10-Q filed with the SEC (their May quarterly report). The report doesn't mention Apple Computer or AAPL (Apple's ticker symbol), nor does it give asset details on the balance sheet. :shrug:

[Sorry for quoting from so far back in the thread!] You may have better luck checking the Apple 10-K to see if they mention significant holdings by MSFT.

Also, does anyone know folks who work in the Evil Empire? Are they brainwashed? I have two buddies who work there, and they are both brainwashed, thinking that Microsoft is innocent in everything, and of course, the best. ("What, another virus? Oh, man! After we put out a patch and everything too!").

So I was talking with one of these buddies recently, and of course I had to tip-toe around the fact that I'm a mac loyalist. And we were talking about the SoBig F virus, and I said, "Well, I'll just stick with my mac, thank you." She goes, "Ooh-kay! You know, we're no longer updating Internet Explorer for the mac!" You know what came next....of course, she was oblivious to Safari, and how it kicks butt. I'd abandoned IE ages ago, when the first Safari BETA came out! (I can't knock on the other friend too much, 'cause he works on mac products -- part of that investment deal to keep mac-platform products alive)

I don't think the mentality at MSFT will really change. Oh well, more for us. What I'd do is use macs but invest in MSFT, so we get the best of both worlds -- the ease of the mac, and the money from those who don't know any better.... :D

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by montecristo
She goes, "Ooh-kay! You know, we're no longer updating Internet Explorer for the mac!" You know what came next....of course, she was oblivious to Safari, and how it kicks butt.

-montecristo

I've had many dealings with Microsoft corporate and sattelite offices, and I can say withough hesitation that they are some of the most arrogant people I've ever met. And this culture gets more arrogant the farther up the food chain you get.

First off, they are convinced they do nothing wrong, and everybody is out to get them for selfish reasons.

They don't actually have any creativity in their products that I've ever found, it's all rehashes of things done before - in Microsoft code. Ergo they don't "see" Safari.

They aren't "big picture" people for the most part - the Big Picture is reserved for Bill (really). There are so many examples of this. The Getty Images incident is one. The statement that "You know, we're no longer updating Internet Explorer for the mac!" is one of my new favorites as they aren't updating it for Windows either - because it's no longer to bea stand-alone product!

"Pride cometh before the fall."

[idea_hamster]

Originally posted by montecristo
...they are both brainwashed, thinking that Microsoft is innocent in everything, and of course, the best....
Interesting -- I'm not surprized that they're convinced that MS is actually a computing panacea, but I was kind of taken aback to find out that they hadn't even heard about Safari! Come on!

This isn't a knock on anyone, but I think your friend might have asked herself why they stopped developing IE for Mac -- could it be the same reason that Adobe cut Premier for Mac? That is, Apple decided to co-opt their market space with [insert new Apple product here: Safari, Final Cut Express...].

This reminds me of another thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35440) where I suggested that MS developers seem to write their stuff in some kind of vacuum, oblivious to the capabilities of other computing environments. Hey, I recommend just letting things be with your friend. After all, after a certain age, it can be dangerous to free a mind...;)

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by idea_hamster
This isn't a knock on anyone, but I think your friend might have asked herself why they stopped developing IE for Mac -- could it be the same reason that Adobe cut Premier for Mac? That is, Apple decided to co-opt their market space with [insert new Apple product here: Safari, Final Cut Express...].


-idea_hamster

I apologize if I wasn't more clear above. There will be no more IE as a standalone product.

Therefore it's developement as an independant product ceases on both Macs and PC's. IE will continue to exists as a part of Windows itself - and because MS doesn't develop OS X, it will disappear on that platform by default.

Most journalists missed this point.

But I love the wat MS spun it as if Apple forced them out with a better product. This is a half truth, Safari is better than IE (hell, any other Mac browser is better anymore), but Apple didn't force anyone - MS is leveraging their monopoly again.

[idea_hamster]

Originally posted by patrick0brien
There will be no more IE as a standalone product....IE will continue to exists as a part of Windows itself....
But isn't that what got MS in hot water with the Dept. of Justice the first time as an anti-trust violation? I suppose that I haven't followed the specifics of the settlement negotiations, but I would have thought that they weren't going to include an OK to do the very thing that was the subject of the complaint. A bit odd, if you ask me.

[themadchemist]

Originally posted by idea_hamster
But isn't that what got MS in hot water with the Dept. of Justice the first time as an anti-trust violation? I suppose that I haven't followed the specifics of the settlement negotiations, but I would have thought that they weren't going to include an OK to do the very thing that was the subject of the complaint. A bit odd, if you ask me.

well, now that there is a multiplicity of browsers, MS might be able to get away with this...

But you can be the AOL ( =netscape) lawyers will pursue this.

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by idea_hamster
But isn't that what got MS in hot water with the Dept. of Justice the first time as an anti-trust violation? I suppose that I haven't followed the specifics of the settlement negotiations, but I would have thought that they weren't going to include an OK to do the very thing that was the subject of the complaint. A bit odd, if you ask me.

-idea_hamster

Well, sorta. The original [successfully] prosecuted complaint was on 'tying'. Analogous to if while you were on vacation, someone built an addition to your house. And it was there an waiting for you when you returned.

this is building a whole new house - with the floorspace of that addition built in.

Lawers wishing to persue a new complaint would have to show that there has been new injury due to anticompetitive practices. MS alread lost the first one. So now there is a precident.

If there were a new case, it would be easier to prove due to that precident, and likely there would be actual punishment.

It's a true testament to the depths of arrogance that MS is even coming clost to repeating history - let alone stepping right into the middle of it.