Woman dies while in airport security holding cell [Archive]

CanadaRAM

Sep 30, 2007, 02:36 PM

How the heck do you strangle yourself in cuffs? sounds a lil fishy.

Just because something is improbable doesn't mean it is impossible.

A friend of ours was renovating a deck, he somehow managed to fall and impale himself on a crowbar -- and staggered to the neighbour's house with a crowbar entering one side of his neck, and exiting the other. They called the paramedics and he lived. That's a billion to one shot of a) catching the crowbar just right to drive it through one's neck, 2) not hitting the vital arteries, veins or windpipe while doing so, and 3) being able to go get help.

You couldn't imagine it could be possible, but it indeed did happen.

xsedrinam

Sep 30, 2007, 02:41 PM

How the heck do you strangle yourself in cuffs? sounds a lil fishy.
"It appeared as though Ms. Gotbaum had possibly tried to manipulate the handcuffs from behind her to the front, got tangled up in the process, and they ended up around her neck area," Hill said

Regardless of how, not smart can some times = dead. Having missed a connection or two (one as the plane was backing out of the gate), I can understand an initial, heated exchange, but why she was not able to calm herself down is still unanswered. And in Phoenix, alone? Lots of things left to speculation 'til it comes out. Never mind that Homeland Security sometimes has the discernment of an amoeba.

SteveG4Cube

Sep 30, 2007, 02:47 PM

Obviously you have to use judgement when dealing with people of "authority", but TSA employees are some of the most power abusive, power tripping idiots I've ever encountered. I travel frequently for work and I've witnessed some serious streching of authority.

The most recent thing I saw was an older woman travelling alone who didn't have her items in the proper zip-lock bag (the actual items were fine, just the bag was incorrect). She had a clear plastic bag that she had gone through security with at another airport with no issues, but the agent at this airport decided to single her out. Instead of letting her through or offering her an acceptable bag to substitute, they berated her, talking down to her as if she was a 3 year old, until she was sitting on the ground bawling.

Then they got more arrogant and told her she can either throw everything out (probably $100 in make-up and stuff) or go back out and have them pull her checked luggage and put it in there (probably missing her flight in the process). I would've offered to let her borrow my zip-lock bag but I was afraid they might think I was conspiring with her or something. :rolleyes:

Bottom line is plan ahead, expect the worst, and if you're late for a flight or whatever don't expect any sympathy from the minimum wage drones that have been given the task of keeping us safe in the air.

xsedrinam

Sep 30, 2007, 02:58 PM

Bottom line is plan ahead, expect the worst, and if you're late for a flight or whatever don't expect any sympathy from the minimum wage drones that have been given the task of keeping us safe in the air.
As another fellow frequent flyer, I have to purposefully and intentionally take the "relax and prepare for whatever scenario" while traveling. Arrive late? Lower your expectations that it's going to go your way. Arrive early? Lower your expectations that it's going to go your way. TSA will not disappoint.

RedTomato

Sep 30, 2007, 05:16 PM

I would've offered to let her borrow my zip-lock bag but I was afraid they might think I was conspiring with her or something.

I find that's the most chilling part of your post. That you were actually afraid to give an innocent crying woman a cheap clear plastic bag that would have helped her and solved her problems, for fear that the guards would start picking on you too.

I'm not blaming you in particular, I just find this a horrible portent of things to come.

Stampyhead

Sep 30, 2007, 07:49 PM

i mean "yikes" in terms of "strangling to death in an airport in phoenix" which sounds like the butt of some bad joke.

Yeah, if I had to sit in the Phoenix airport for that long I'd try to kill myself too.

mkrishnan

Sep 30, 2007, 08:31 PM

I'm not blaming you in particular, I just find this a horrible portent of things to come.

I personally am more bothered by the idea that the rules should be stretched or altered for some classes of people. No one should be berated. But it is equally not right to expect the TSA to ignore the rules when it comes to someone you personally think falls in a "low risk" category because of their ethnicity, age, sex, etc.

I've always dealt nicely, for what it's worth, with TSA, and never really had bad experiences with them. Including twice when I screwed up on the rules (once for scissors or something I had in my toiletry kit and once for forgetting to unpack my notebook computer). After 9/11, I did have a bad experience being refused carryon luggage under suspicious circumstances (the luggage was clearly within acceptable specifications and others were allowed carry-ons, including larger ones on the same flight). But that was by the airline and not TSA.

I'm not saying they can't get power-trippy. But there's a difference between calling them power trippy and carrying the expectation that they'll bend the rules whenever you expect them to.

SteveG4Cube

Sep 30, 2007, 10:31 PM

I find that's the most chilling part of your post. That you were actually afraid to give an innocent crying woman a cheap clear plastic bag that would have helped her and solved her problems, for fear that the guards would start picking on you too.

I'm not blaming you in particular, I just find this a horrible portent of things to come.

Believe me, it was a chilling situation. Others were standing around trying to help, and the TSA official was starting to yell at people who were trying to comfort her and telling them to mind their own business. I seriously don't think they would have let her accept another person's bag anyway. They were more about punishing her and making an example for not following the rules to the letter than allowing her to correct the problem.

I'm not saying they can't get power-trippy. But there's a difference between calling them power trippy and carrying the expectation that they'll bend the rules whenever you expect them to.

No one's saying they should bend the rules, but how they handle situations makes a difference. They could've been nice about it and done their best to help the lady stay calm (I understand the value of her items but I'd think they were all easily replaceable). Not to mention that alot of people aren't frequent travellers and may not know about the zip-lock bag rule. You'd think they'd keep some handy for people to use. If they insist on you putting that crap in a bag, why not provide it? They give you a bin to put stuff in. Maybe we should all have to bring our own bins next.

Thanatoast

Oct 1, 2007, 12:11 PM

No one's saying they should bend the rules, but how they handle situations makes a difference. They could've been nice about it and done their best to help the lady stay calm (I understand the value of her items but I'd think they were all easily replaceable). Not to mention that alot of people aren't frequent travellers and may not know about the zip-lock bag rule. You'd think they'd keep some handy for people to use. If they insist on you putting that crap in a bag, why not provide it? They give you a bin to put stuff in. Maybe we should all have to bring our own bins next.

Or, and here's crazy idea, they could not engage in CYA Security Theater and treat travellers like human beings instead of criminals.

Of course this will never, ever happen. Welcome to the Brave New World, where the state of your footwear and the arbitrary size of a ziploc baggie can get you blacklisted.

stupid ****ing piece of **** *******s. Airports piss me off more than just about anything.

kasei

Oct 1, 2007, 01:55 PM

I flew in and out of Phoenix airport for two years working on my MBA. The stories I could tell about the TSA there would give you the chills. Thank God I was able to upgrade to business class and bypass all of that crap. Now LAX... multiply the crazy factor by 10. I agree with and earlier post. Arrive late don't expect things to go your way, arrive early don't expect things to go your way. Especially when you are flying out of LAX and the flight is international.

RedTomato

Oct 1, 2007, 01:59 PM

But it is equally not right to expect the TSA to ignore the rules when it comes to someone you personally think falls in a "low risk" category because of their ethnicity, age, sex, etc.

Of course I agree she could be a bomb-carrying whitehaired old lady. But there are rules that make sense, and then there are damn stupid rules, and we all have a duty to protest against damn stupid rules.

Including rules that say you can't be told what the rules are. That goes against 1000 years of legal building blocks of the rights of people and social justice.

She was happy to have her things inspected, she offered her things in a plastic bag, and they were blasting her cos it was an inch too large or it didnt have a poxy zip lock or somthing that made no bloody difference to their inspection. They were shouting at her, trying to give her a horrible time, and intimidating anyone who tried to help. That's not on.

I've flown at european airports, at London airports, I've seen staff standing at the security line, giving out free clear plastic bags to anyone who wanted one, standing next to vending machines that also gave free or cheap clear bags. I've gone through carrying plastic bags that didn't close, that were the wrong size, whatever, but it still let them do their jobs.

That's ignoring the whole fact that this whole clear plastic bag thing is a complete pile of shite, which has been debunked in several publications as making your flight no safer.

mkrishnan

Oct 1, 2007, 03:12 PM

She was happy to have her things inspected, she offered her things in a plastic bag...

I guess I can see where this particular rule has become too complicated for many people. But I'm not sure that the solution is for TSA to spend time giving items out to try to get people through who fail to follow an overly complicated rule, instead of focusing on making sure that travelers are safe. If that's the ultimate issue, I'd just as soon go back to prohibiting liquids in carry-ons.

I think the TSA has to balance a lot of different demands on them. I'm not totally insensitive to protecting passenger convenience among those needs, because I appreciate when my convenience is abetted also. But to me, civil liberty comes first, safety comes second, and convenience is a relatively minor issue. And so, from my perspective, I think the TSA deserves more respect and cooperation from passengers.

adk

Oct 1, 2007, 03:33 PM

I've flown at european airports, at London airports, I've seen staff standing at the security line, giving out free clear plastic bags to anyone who wanted one, standing next to vending machines that also gave free or cheap clear bags.

Most US airports are also more than happy to hand out a free (and correctly sized) bag as well. They don't allow the wrong sizes/types of bags but they're almost always happy to give them out.

LethalWolfe

Oct 1, 2007, 03:52 PM

"It appeared as though Ms. Gotbaum had possibly tried to manipulate the handcuffs from behind her to the front, got tangled up in the process, and they ended up around her neck area," Hill said

Just because something is improbable doesn't mean it is impossible.

Yeah, but if your hands are cuffed behind your back and you want to get your hands in front of you, how the hell do they end up around your neck? I'm not jumping to the conclusion that she got murdered, but I'm just trying to figure out how this would happen. AFAIK your only option is to go "down low" and pull your hands past your feet but that puts the cuffs no where near your neck.:confused:

Lethal

Spikeanator6982

Oct 1, 2007, 06:28 PM

Yeah, but if your hands are cuffed behind your back and you want to get your hands in front of you, how the hell do they end up around your neck? I'm not jumping to the conclusion that she got murdered, but I'm just trying to figure out how this would happen. AFAIK your only option is to go "down low" and pull your hands past your feet but that puts the cuffs no where near your neck.:confused:

Lethal

well..unless she was flexable enough or double jointed and could rotate her arms backwords enough to go up over her head..but then couldnt do anything after that and she could get them back over either..idk..

szark

Oct 1, 2007, 07:33 PM

Most US airports are also more than happy to hand out a free (and correctly sized) bag as well. They don't allow the wrong sizes/types of bags but they're almost always happy to give them out.

And Phoenix provides these bags for free as well. There's a large bin with a huge sign at the entrance to the security line.

Unfortunately, about half the time I've gone through the line, the bin was empty. :rolleyes:

xsedrinam

Oct 1, 2007, 07:34 PM

Yeah, but if your hands are cuffed behind your back and you want to get your hands in front of you, how the hell do they end up around your neck? I'm not jumping to the conclusion that she got murdered, but I'm just trying to figure out how this would happen. AFAIK your only option is to go "down low" and pull your hands past your feet but that puts the cuffs no where near your neck.:confused:

Lethal
A smilie-con would not be appropriate at the moment and in context of the thread, but you make a valid point.

szark

Oct 1, 2007, 07:42 PM

More news: Woman killed at Sky Harbor was on her way to alcohol rehab (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1001airportdeath1001-ON.html)

RedTomato

Oct 1, 2007, 08:26 PM

It says she was shackled to a bench.

Perhaps she fell off while still handcuffed, and couldn't breathe due to her position, or got a chain around her neck.

I still suspect foul play - maybe a guard was fed up of her shouting.

Note now they're saying they rebooked her on the next flight. They didn't say that before.

Was her rehab appointment a once-only shot i.e. turn up late and they won't let you in? I know nothing about rehab, but I suspect they're quite flexible about what time you turn up considering their target audience.

JNB

Oct 1, 2007, 08:51 PM

How this turned into a discussion about the TSA, I have no idea. It was gate personnel and PHX PD. TSA didn't appear to have any part of it.

Anyway, considering the comments and POVs, I figure, what the hell, might as well throw a little gas on the easily offended fires on the intertubes. I'm in a snarky mood.

As a 120-150 segment per year flier based in PHX (and avoiding Terminal 4 like the plague!), and seeing most hub & secondary airports in the country during the year, I can attest to two things.

1) The TSA, like most large, bureaucratic organizations, is staffed by predominately good folks, honestly trying to do a job that puts them below used car salespeople and politicians on any most-admired list. The small minority that are unmitigated pinheads (and I think I've met most of them by now) are thankfully being slowly weeded out or relegated to behind-the-scenes baggage inspection.

I have learned that just following the simple (and yes, sometimes asinine) rules and maintaining a good cheer speed me through quickly and with no problems, and may actually ease the journey of the folks behind me, if I can put the TSA agent in a better mood. Customer service works in both directions. Bottom line here, it's the world we've got, so we better learn where the cheese got moved to, else we go hungry and handcuffed into the night.

2) The overwhelming majority of the traveling public don't have the sense to come out of the rain, much less navigate a major airport. Actually, they cause more headaches than the TSA does. I try to help when I can (and so does the TSA most times, along with everyone that works there), but when 90%-plus of the people jammed in the terminal are clueless--and bearing an insufferable sense of entitlement--well, tempers will flare.

As far as the luckless lass that expired, time will tell, and the truth will be known. Up to the point of her death, it's all on her. To the precise, factual cause and nature of said death, we'll find out over the next few weeks, I'm sure. Dying in PHX PD custody is generally cause for a major investigative effort by the local media, as a number of previous incidents have been less than proper or the decedent's fault.

Just remember, one may have a right to travel freely in the US, but the mode of travel is not.

LethalWolfe

Oct 2, 2007, 08:46 PM

It says she was shackled to a bench.
The earlier reports made no mention of that, but that makes more sense now of how it could've happened.

Lethal

adk

Oct 2, 2007, 09:44 PM

It says she was shackled to a bench.
Note now they're saying they rebooked her on the next flight. They didn't say that before.

It's standard practice to list a removed passenger (for behavior, alchohol, etc.) on the next flight in hopes that they can shape up by then. They'll normally keep listing the rowdy passenger for the next flight(s) unless he/she asks for his/her money back.

Mac Kiwi

Oct 3, 2007, 06:16 AM

Maybe her hands were shackled in front of her,she then lifted her legs through,slipped down to her neck and was pinned against the bench with no way forward or back again?....is most odd.

What was done to that old woman is outrageous!.......if something like that happened to my mum,and I was there I would break the pricks jaw for him,regardless of the consequences!

twoodcc

Oct 3, 2007, 09:28 AM

How the heck do you strangle yourself in cuffs? sounds a lil fishy.

yes it does. there's gotta be more than meets the eye

leftbanke7

Oct 3, 2007, 06:06 PM

I know during my recent trip to Japan, the differences between the TSA and their foreign equivilants were quite striking.

While in line at Narita Int'l, if something was expected of you, a person would walk up to you and ask you in a soft voice if you would do what was needed. Getting back to the US, they would just scream at the top of their lungs over and over (and over and over.......).

In Japan, if a new line was being formed, a worker would walk up and point out where they needed/wanted you to stand. US: yep, you got it. More screaming.

Now I know that part of it may be that it was LAX and it is a very busy airport so TSA member's patience is probably frazzled but I am relatively certain that Narita Int'l is every bit as busy yet everybody was much more relaxed and as a result, things went a whole lot smoother.

I do think that part of it is to an extent a power trip. They are essentially working without fear of any consequences because all they have to say is the magical words "I felt they were a security risk" and they are in the clear.

Sometimes the way things are done in the US just makes me shake my head.

ScubaDuc

Oct 4, 2007, 07:56 AM

atszyman

Oct 4, 2007, 08:12 AM

How the heck do you strangle yourself in cuffs? sounds a lil fishy.

Here's (ttp://www.slate.com/id/2175054/) an entire article about how to strangle/suffocate yourself when trying to get handcuffed hands from behind your back to the front. It's really not that hard to do, especially if you're not flexible and/or coordinated and/or have a low pain threshold.

Not saying that there isn't more to this story, but managing to kill yourself struggling with handcuffs isn't as improbable as it might initially sound.

Stampyhead

Oct 5, 2007, 01:16 PM

The situation in the US is ridicoulous. Those TSA people are lowest of the low in terms of educationand sovoir-faire.. Must have scraped the bottom of the barrel

Replace 'TSA people' with 'Phoenix police officers' and you're definitely correct.

JNB

Oct 5, 2007, 07:04 PM

The situation in the US is ridicoulous. Those TSA people are lowest of the low in terms of educationand sovoir-faire.. Must have scraped the bottom of the barrel :rolleyes:

I simply avoid to connect in the US unless it's the only option :mad:

FRA in EU is best, by far!!!

Replace 'TSA people' with 'Phoenix police officers' and you're definitely correct.

And the beauty of opinions is that intelligence, insight, understanding, or rational basis for asinine commentary is completely optional.

Try throwing things, screaming at the top of your lungs, and resisting arrest anywhere in the EU or US and see what the reaction is.

xsedrinam

Oct 5, 2007, 07:24 PM

tdhurst

Oct 5, 2007, 10:18 PM

It's now revealed that her husband called the airport (http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/10/05/airport.death/index.html) to alert them of her fragile condition. Apparently no one passed along the message(s).

Correct. No one knew she was a crazy drunk, abandoned by her family, forgotten by friends and on her way to rehab.

It's a tragic story, but the police weren't at fault here. This lady shouldn't have been traveling alone. Her family and friends should have accompanied her.

THEY are the ones to blame here.

Rodimus Prime

Oct 5, 2007, 11:10 PM

wow people here like to beat on the TSA over a FEW and I repeat a FEW bad apples. In flying since 9/11 I have really only delt with 2 annoying TSA people. One I cannt say I blame him he was venting to himself after dealing yet another person who does not know how to fly with laptops. He was just in ear shot of the girl who failed to do everything with the laptop right.

Mind you this was thanksgiving weekend and almost every flight is fully book with college students. A lot of them this being their first time flying with a laptop.
The other was right after they banned liquids on a plan. I by mistake put some hair gell and sun screen in my backpack. Yeah the person was a bit of an ass to me when I got caught a security and she was being an ass about sayign I cannt do that. I just give her the ok what ever look. I do not react.

Best way to deal with those bad apples is just do not react either way to what they have to say. Just be like ok what ever you say. It really kills off there power because you have no reaction to drive to anger and not giving them the satisfaction of making them feel like they are bigger and better than you.

Also lastly remember the TSA people put up with a lot of crap from people complaining and whining about security rules. People being just jerks to TSA people. It starts wearing thin after a while.

xsedrinam

Oct 5, 2007, 11:25 PM

Correct. No one knew she was a crazy drunk, abandoned by her family, forgotten by friends and on her way to rehab.

It's a tragic story, but the police weren't at fault here. This lady shouldn't have been traveling alone. Her family and friends should have accompanied her.

THEY are the ones to blame here.
It is a tragic ending but I'm not looking to blame anyone. She was not abandoned by her family and forgotten. The fact that her husband was concerned, knew of her whereabouts and made calls to the airport to alert them of her condition shows she had a concerned network. And somehow, that information was not passed on since no law enforcement people said they were aware of the calls.

Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime
Also lastly remember the TSA people put up with a lot of crap from people complaining and whining about security rules. People being just jerks to TSA people. It starts wearing thin after a while.
I don't know how the TSA got in to this one, either. But I have no sympathy for their rank because of their work load. Frequent flyers put up with their patronizing lack of discernment and heavy handedness, too. We have to fly and put up with it. If they don't like it, they can get another job. There's two sides to the mutual sharing of teh load.

beatzfreak

Oct 6, 2007, 09:30 AM

It is a tragic ending but I'm not looking to blame anyone. She was not abandoned by her family and forgotten. The fact that her husband was concerned, knew of her whereabouts and made calls to the airport to alert them of her condition shows she had a concerned network. And somehow, that information was not passed on since no law enforcement people said they were aware of the calls.

It was just reported on the local news here in NYC that she had been dead for more than an hour by the time her husband called the airport.

This is a prominent family with plenty of resources.

Somebody should have gone with her.

Rodimus Prime

Oct 6, 2007, 10:53 AM

I don't know how the TSA got in to this one, either. But I have no sympathy for their rank because of their work load. Frequent flyers put up with their patronizing lack of discernment and heavy handedness, too. We have to fly and put up with it. If they don't like it, they can get another job. There's two sides to the mutual sharing of teh load.

Comments like that show how well blind people are. A vast majority of the TSA people are nice people and do not cause any issues. Yet people lump them all in as bad because of a few bad ones that people hardly ever see.
I personally have delt with a wide range of TSA personal from the jerks to the ones that where very nice. Most being on the very nice side. Now some on the busy day could see how they acted where rather beaten down by people being jerks to them.

There are 2 sides to every story but most the time it is people like you painting them all to be bad for a few bad apples and are not forgiving at all about the fact that they are people 2 and have there bad days. It said but lets see some one going though secuirty might have to put up with one jerk of a TSA person per day they fly but on the other had the TSA people have to deal with 100's of them per day. It starts getting at you after a while.

xsedrinam

Oct 6, 2007, 12:15 PM

There are 2 sides to every story but most the time it is people like you painting them all to be bad for a few bad apples and are not forgiving at all about the fact that they are people 2 and have there bad days.
No need to make it personal since you have no idea who I am, how often I travel or how I think. I've thanked TSA for keeping us safe upon occasion when they do their job in a courteous and efficient manner. I've also experienced their "Barney Fife" abuse with both disrespectful and inept handling of situations which were totally uncalled for. My point being that there are indeed two sides. Your insistence to defend their operations without question seems to indicate you've a blind spot. Show me where I've "painted them all bad". That's your projection, not mine.