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MacRumors
Oct 1, 2007, 03:50 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Apple has released a new seed update to developers running the latest versions of Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard via Mac OS X's Software Update mechanism.

The 9A557/9A559 Seed Update includes fixes to wireless networking and RAW image viewing in the latest development build of Mac OS X Leopard. The update is also being used to test new features with in the Software Update mechanism itself.

Apple seeded (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/09/21/apple-seeds-mac-os-x-10-5-leopard-9a559/) 9A559 to developers 10 days ago, which introduced a number of bug fixes and user interface tweaks. Today's update does not change the Leopard seed number.

Apple had previously announced that it was going to be releasing Leopard in October, but no specific release date has been set.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/01/apple-releases-leopard-9a557-9a599-seed-update/)



TheSpecialist
Oct 1, 2007, 03:52 PM
Great news! Cmon, Golden Master!!!:rolleyes: I think they are really going to make an announcement soon. I mean, whe're already in Octobre! I really wan't to know when we can enjoy Leopard....

kavika411
Oct 1, 2007, 03:52 PM
Anything to divert our attention from the iPhone trainwreck slowly building.

flopticalcube
Oct 1, 2007, 03:53 PM
Airport fixes, hmmm. Does that mean that 10.4.11 will not fix MacBook Airport issues? hmmm

AppleWoW
Oct 1, 2007, 03:53 PM
WHOO go GM!!

lazyrighteye
Oct 1, 2007, 03:54 PM
It would seem GM is mere hours away if they plan on duplicating and shipping by month's end. Yes?

ravenvii
Oct 1, 2007, 03:54 PM
Yeah, my $100 gift certificate from Apple is waiting to be spent on this feline!

psychofreak
Oct 1, 2007, 03:55 PM
I can't wait for Leopard...it really seems to be shaping up to be a solid OS :)

AppleWoW
Oct 1, 2007, 03:55 PM
Still no counter on Apple site. Think their gonna try and jump it on us?

TheSpecialist
Oct 1, 2007, 03:56 PM
It would seem GM is mere hours away if they plan on duplicating and shipping by month's end. Yes?

This could be the golden master, as this is just a software update which too can be applied afther the golden master is shipped, and when people install they can still make some updates;)

stoid
Oct 1, 2007, 03:56 PM
It would seem GM is mere hours away if they plan on duplicating and shipping by month's end. Yes?

It takes 2-3 weeks, so they will have to declare GM by October 10-17 to have it on shelves by the end of the month. Doesn't mean that we'll know same day though.

kenaustus
Oct 1, 2007, 03:56 PM
A good indication of how close they are is the fact that they have warned Boot Camp users that it will expire at the end of the month. If they weren't sure of how close they were there would be a Boot Camp update that gives everyone an extra 30 days before it expires.

Squonk
Oct 1, 2007, 03:56 PM
Is it common practice for :apple: to not increment the seed number on releases? As a developer, everything that leaves the farm, so to speak, gets the build number incremented. Perhaps this also points to GM shortly.

Or maybe there is some numerology going on with 559 and Steve's RDF.

twoodcc
Oct 1, 2007, 03:57 PM
Great news! Cmon, Golden Master!!!:rolleyes: I think they are really going to make an announcement soon. I mean, whe're already in Octobre! I really wan't to know when we can enjoy Leopard....

i agree. this is a good sign. hopefully they'll announce something very soon

notsofatjames
Oct 1, 2007, 03:57 PM
Fantastic. The more updates the better.

RRK
Oct 1, 2007, 03:57 PM
Anything to divert our attention from the iPhone trainwreck slowly building.

Hmm what can we use to "divert" attention from the phone? I know lets update Leopard...

:rolleyes:

Bern
Oct 1, 2007, 03:58 PM
I'm sure Steve said October 2008 because they have the rest of the world to release the iPhone in yet and that's not tabled until sometime next year. :rolleyes:

Bill Gates
Oct 1, 2007, 03:58 PM
Golden Master is just a hop, skip, and a jump away!

bdkennedy1
Oct 1, 2007, 03:59 PM
Is it common practice for :apple: to not increment the seed number on releases?

They don't need to increment the build number because the update was released through Software Update.

I'm thinking 559 is the GM because it's really too late to seed another build and wait for feedback. If anything they will do one more build to change the build number and send it off for duplication without external testing.

psychofreak
Oct 1, 2007, 04:00 PM
i agree. this is a good sign. hopefully they'll announce something very soon

My guess is that Apple will announce on the 15th that it will ship on the 29th...

Avicdar
Oct 1, 2007, 04:00 PM
The 9A557/9A559 Seed Update includes fixes to wireless networking and RAW image viewing in the latest development build of Mac OS X Leopard.

Hope this includes support for the new Sony Alpha 700. Just got one today.

Squonk
Oct 1, 2007, 04:01 PM
They don't need to increment the build number because the update was released through Software Update.

I'm thinking 559 is the GM because it's really too late to seed another build and wait for feedback. If anything they will do one more build to change the build number and send it off for duplication without external testing.

Ah, right, got it! Thanks!

And yeah, they could GM it and put anything else that needs to be changed into software update for when people install from the CD. Why didn't I think of that sooner...like there won't be any updates....HA!:rolleyes:

Hope this includes support for the new Sony Alpha 700. Just got one today.

And hopefully the Canon 40D! :D

freeny
Oct 1, 2007, 04:02 PM
Anything to divert our attention from the iPhone trainwreck slowly building.

There is a need for a new "fanboy" like moniker.
But something that represents the next level of fanboy....

hmmm.....

stoid
Oct 1, 2007, 04:02 PM
If anything they will do one more build to change the build number and send it off for duplication without external testing.

That sounds dangerous. I seem to remember something like that leading to File Vault hosing FireWire connected hard drives.

vertgo
Oct 1, 2007, 04:04 PM
All of the great OS level changes that were supposed to come with Leopard are conspicuously absent. No ZFS and no resolution independent UI means that the two most revolutionary features with the most implications for the future of the platform are gone. I was seriously excited about Leopard, but every day that we get closer to gold master means that these will not be in there.

The other things, Spaces, even time warp can be done as applications sitting on top of the OS (well time warp would require some kind of version control like svn but still, it's not nearly as great as having a display of incredible resolution that won't require that my old man eyes have to be 1 inch away from the screen).

Unless the surprise feature is an iPhone SDK, a crippled Leopard won't save apple from the whole bad decision iceberg that is smashing into their titanic.

Peace
Oct 1, 2007, 04:05 PM
They don't need to increment the build number because the update was released through Software Update.

I'm thinking 559 is the GM because it's really too late to seed another build and wait for feedback. If anything they will do one more build to change the build number and send it off for duplication without external testing.

9a567 GM seed 10/4.Timer on Apple.com 10/5.Released 10/19

CJD2112
Oct 1, 2007, 04:06 PM
Golden Master is just a hop, skip, and a jump away!

LOL I didn't know Bill posted here ;)

dizastor
Oct 1, 2007, 04:08 PM
Anything to divert our attention from the iPhone trainwreck slowly building.

yes, the ... trainwreck... :rolleyes:

Ignorant drama aside, I can't wait for Leopard.

hollerz
Oct 1, 2007, 04:10 PM
9a567 GM seed 10/4.Timer on Apple.com 10/5.Released 10/19

Nice.

chr1s60
Oct 1, 2007, 04:10 PM
I am getting worried. Now it is actually October and there is no announcement for a release date yet. This likely means the earliest we would see it is the end of the month.

EricBrian
Oct 1, 2007, 04:12 PM
Leopard in October? Don't count on it.

plumbingandtech
Oct 1, 2007, 04:12 PM
Anything to divert our attention from the iPhone trainwreck slowly building.

Trainwreck?


More like Molehill.

On topic:

Glad to see another one on the first of this month. Seems the it will go GM this week. Can't wait to use Spaces all the time.

vassillios
Oct 1, 2007, 04:13 PM
A good indication of how close they are is the fact that they have warned Boot Camp users that it will expire at the end of the month. If they weren't sure of how close they were there would be a Boot Camp update that gives everyone an extra 30 days before it expires.


Say what? I don't get this statement at all. What warning? Expire? Huh?

happydude
Oct 1, 2007, 04:14 PM
happy october everybody!!! my new imac is just aching for leopard. common, apple, let's get that GM!!

plumbingandtech
Oct 1, 2007, 04:14 PM
Say what? I don't get this statement at all. What warning? Expire? Huh?

http://www.macworld.com/news/2007/10/01/bootcamp/index.php

Bill Gates
Oct 1, 2007, 04:14 PM
LOL I didn't know Bill posted here ;)
Where else would I find ideas for the next version of Windows®? ;)

milo
Oct 1, 2007, 04:15 PM
...No ZFS and no resolution independent UI means blah blah blah...

Aren't ZFS and resolution independence still in 10.5, just not prominently featured?

vassillios
Oct 1, 2007, 04:16 PM
http://www.macworld.com/news/2007/10/01/bootcamp/index.php

Thanks for that! Glad I already did...or think i did :rolleyes:

milo
Oct 1, 2007, 04:18 PM
Leopard in October? Don't count on it.

FUD? Count on it.

The OS is in a shippable state now, it's far enough along that they can ship what they have and just have a software update on release day. There's absolutely no reason it would miss the date. For all we know, they already have declared GM and sent to the duplicator, and these are just testing out the stuff that will be in software update.

crossifixio
Oct 1, 2007, 04:19 PM
Yes I cant wait. Getting closer and closer. Bring it on please:):apple:

rented mule
Oct 1, 2007, 04:20 PM
All of the great OS level changes that were supposed to come with Leopard are conspicuously absent. No ZFS and no resolution independent UI means that the two most revolutionary features with the most implications for the future of the platform are gone. I was seriously excited about Leopard, but every day that we get closer to gold master means that these will not be in there.

The other things, Spaces, even time warp can be done as applications sitting on top of the OS (well time warp would require some kind of version control like svn but still, it's not nearly as great as having a display of incredible resolution that won't require that my old man eyes have to be 1 inch away from the screen).

Unless the surprise feature is an iPhone SDK, a crippled Leopard won't save apple from the whole bad decision iceberg that is smashing into their titanic.

ZFS was never a publicly announced feature. So it's not fair that you're counting that against Apple.

Resolution independence was though! And some might say that I've read too much into what was said but I don't think I did...if Tiger had preliminary RI, why is it not finished in Leopard and why did/is Apple pushing developers so hard to get their apps RI-ready if it won't show up until 10.6?

onemoreanimal
Oct 1, 2007, 04:21 PM
Is it common practice for :apple: to not increment the seed number on releases?

Umm... how is 599 not different from 559? Am I missing something here?

sblasl
Oct 1, 2007, 04:21 PM
I think that you are the first one who thinks that it would be anything else but the end of the month.

I put money on October 26, 2007.

I am getting worried. Now it is actually October and there is no announcement for a release date yet. This likely means the earliest we would see it is the end of the month.

Mac OS X Ocelot
Oct 1, 2007, 04:22 PM
I'm so glad they invented the Mac operating system and created ten versions of it over twenty years so they can release updates on it to distract customers from the trainwreck that they knew the iPhone would be twenty years ago.

CoreWeb
Oct 1, 2007, 04:22 PM
FUD? Count on it.

The OS is in a shippable state now, it's far enough along that they can ship what they have and just have a software update on release day. There's absolutely no reason it would miss the date. For all we know, they already have declared GM and sent to the duplicator, and these are just testing out the stuff that will be in software update.

Yeah, they did it with the new iLife suite, didn't they?

Peace
Oct 1, 2007, 04:22 PM
ZFS was never a publicly announced feature. So it's not fair that you're counting that against Apple.

Resolution independence was though! And some might say that I've read too much into what was said but I don't think I did...if Tiger had preliminary RI, why is it not finished in Leopard and why did/is Apple pushing developers so hard to get their apps RI-ready if it won't show up until 10.6?

At the last WWDC Apple informed developers they wanted them to be RI by January 2008.That has always been the case.Perhaps you personally didn't know this but developers have known it for a long time.

SiliconAddict
Oct 1, 2007, 04:22 PM
*sighs* WHere is my Microsoft settlement check. http://www.microsoftminnesotasettlement.com/
I want to buy Leopard with it. I have a feeling the cash will spontaneous combust when I hand it to the casheer though. *hands the money to the casheer *POOF..See's Bill's face smiling in the smoke. WTF?!?

PS- I bitch about leopard in general because I think the updates are marginal. That doesn't mean I don't think it will be a solid update.

majorp
Oct 1, 2007, 04:24 PM
Umm... how is 599 not different from 559? Am I missing something here?

probably typo.

DeaconGraves
Oct 1, 2007, 04:28 PM
Anything to divert our attention from the iPhone trainwreck slowly building.

I'm so glad they invented the Mac operating system and created ten versions of it over twenty years so they can release updates on it to distract customers from the trainwreck that they knew the iPhone would be twenty years ago.

Are you two related?

reckless_0001
Oct 1, 2007, 04:29 PM
From appleinsider.com :

http://images.appleinsider.com/leopard-seed-update-091001.png

Naimfan
Oct 1, 2007, 04:30 PM
Anything to divert our attention from the iPhone trainwreck slowly building.

"Slowly?"

;)

Leopard will indeed be a great diversion from the %@!%$!.

FireArse
Oct 1, 2007, 04:30 PM
I've had a look through the site, but where were we with regards to ZFS and Leopard?

Is it likely to make it to GM?

Cheers,

FireArse

MrCrowbar
Oct 1, 2007, 04:32 PM
All of the great OS level changes that were supposed to come with Leopard are conspicuously absent. No ZFS and no resolution independent UI means that the two most revolutionary features with the most implications for the future of the platform are gone. I was seriously excited about Leopard, but every day that we get closer to gold master means that these will not be in there.

The other things, Spaces, even time warp can be done as applications sitting on top of the OS (well time warp would require some kind of version control like svn but still, it's not nearly as great as having a display of incredible resolution that won't require that my old man eyes have to be 1 inch away from the screen).

Unless the surprise feature is an iPhone SDK, a crippled Leopard won't save apple from the whole bad decision iceberg that is smashing into their titanic.

Errr.... you can't take advantage of resolution independence yet anyway, since there are no high definition displays out there right now. Current display are around 100 pixels per inch. Resolution independence makes it so you can have a display woth more pixels per inch, without making everything super small. Instead, everything gets ultra sharp. But these displays are not out yet, and that's not Apple's fault... Resolution Independence is there and working alright, it's just not activated yet. It probably will be updated when there are high def displays out. Besides, making an application ready for it takes some work, this is why Apple had to start promoting early so the major applications are ready when the time comes.

The other thing is time machine. Trust me, this is unlike any other bckup solution out there. It's built in, automatic and totally transparent. You won't notice it's there until it saves the day by giving you back the files you accidently erased or overwrote or your hard drive died. It's also efficient because it knows things about the system that 3rd party apps can't possibly know.

I agree the new dock looks unfinished, the scaling of the icons when you have the zoom on is way smoother in Tiger. But hey, front row now actually works and I think it's a nice package as it is. I played around with A559 and it's reasonably stable. Most of the cool stuff is under the hood which makes your apps work better and look prettier :-)
Oh, and the intro video is high def :D

vertgo
Oct 1, 2007, 04:32 PM
Aren't ZFS and resolution independence still in 10.5, just not prominently featured?

No they aren't. ZFS only showed up in earlier betas of the disk utility. Resolution independence as an SDK was exposed to developers in 10.4, but like ZFS, it disappeared in an earlier build of of the beta (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0706leopard9a4559gallery.html) and hasn't come back.

This is actually a pattern we've seen in Vista as well, revolutionary features like winFS getting culled because the developers were taking too long, the launch date being pushed back (though nowhere nearly as far).

ZFS was never a publicly announced feature. So it's not fair that you're counting that against Apple.

Yeah, I know, but it was one of the two features that really would set OSX ahead of its time, as visionary. Other than that, it's just UI differences between OSX and windows, and a couple of apps that are integrated into the OS. Nothing groundbreaking.

queshy
Oct 1, 2007, 04:33 PM
It better be available in canada right on release day, or else...

Mac OS X Ocelot
Oct 1, 2007, 04:33 PM
Are you two related?

Mine was sarcasm based on the former's post.

Sbrocket
Oct 1, 2007, 04:34 PM
9a567 GM seed 10/4.Timer on Apple.com 10/5.Released 10/19

Nope, sorry. Too low on the first number.

Mac OS X Ocelot
Oct 1, 2007, 04:34 PM
It better be available in canada right on release day, or else...

...you're driving, guy.

nimbuscloud
Oct 1, 2007, 04:34 PM
Anything to divert our attention from the iPhone trainwreck slowly building.

Dumbest post ever.

Why are you being a troll?

:apple:

nowaycomputer
Oct 1, 2007, 04:34 PM
How do updated OS's correlate to hardware? Does every new computer ordered after the shipping date is announced include leopard? ie If they announce leopard on the 10th and say it'll ship on 17th, and I order a macbook on 11th, will it include leopard?

Apple is cutting it mighty fine to let me get my free nano (offer ends 31st oct)

Stella
Oct 1, 2007, 04:35 PM
It better be available in canada right on release day, or else...

All prior versions of OSX ( at least >=10.2 ) have been so 10.5 should be no different

DeaconGraves
Oct 1, 2007, 04:35 PM
Mine was sarcasm based on the former's post.

Gotcha. Clearly my brain almost made the connection but the synapses aren't working properly today :D

Peace
Oct 1, 2007, 04:35 PM
Nope, sorry. Too low on the first number.

Care to do a side wager ? ;)

Mac OS X Ocelot
Oct 1, 2007, 04:35 PM
How do updated OS's correlate to hardware? Does every new computer ordered after the shipping date is announced include leopard? ie If they announce leopard on the 10th and say it'll ship on 17th, and I order a macbook on 11th, will it include leopard?

Apple is cutting it mighty fine to let me get my free nano (offer ends 31st oct)

Don't they have the Nano deal like all year long? I remember when the free engraving on the iPods expired every month and then renewed.

Eidorian
Oct 1, 2007, 04:36 PM
The other thing is time machine. Trust me, this is unlike any other bckup solution out there. It's built in, automatic and totally transparent. You won't notice it's there until it saves the day by giving you back the files you accidently erased or overwrote or your hard drive died. It's also efficient because it knows things about the system that 3rd party apps can't possibly know.Unless you're using external storage it's not much more impressive then Volume Shadow Copy.

nowaycomputer
Oct 1, 2007, 04:37 PM
Don't they have the Nano deal like all year long? I remember when the free engraving on the iPods expired every month and then renewed.

They've had them before, but this is specifically back to school. Seems unlikely they'll have another straight away.

nimbuscloud
Oct 1, 2007, 04:38 PM
I am getting worried. Now it is actually October and there is no announcement for a release date yet. This likely means the earliest we would see it is the end of the month.

No spit, Sherlock.

The iPhone was promised for June. When did it come out? The end of June.

Apple said that Leopard would come out in October. Last time I checked, there's 31 days in October. They didn't say October 1st, so please calm the heck down.

:apple:

Peace
Oct 1, 2007, 04:38 PM
Could the title to this thread be changed to the correct versions?

9a557/9a559 instead of 9a599 ?

Sbrocket
Oct 1, 2007, 04:40 PM
Care to do a side wager ? ;)

Gladly. Pure speculation rarely wins out over, well.... ;)

TC Schiller
Oct 1, 2007, 04:40 PM
There is a need for a new "fanboy" like moniker.
But something that represents the next level of fanboy....

hmmm.....

I nominate 'fanslut'.

oldwatery
Oct 1, 2007, 04:41 PM
FUD? Count on it.

The OS is in a shippable state now, it's far enough along that they can ship what they have and just have a software update on release day. There's absolutely no reason it would miss the date. For all we know, they already have declared GM and sent to the duplicator, and these are just testing out the stuff that will be in software update.

What:confused:
And you know this how?
Talk about rumors. :rolleyes:

/dev/toaster
Oct 1, 2007, 04:42 PM
From appleinsider.com :

http://images.appleinsider.com/leopard-seed-update-091001.png

Thanks a lot ... I went away from the keyboard for a minute with this thread open. I guess I never really noticed the picture ... anyhow, I had software update running ... I got back, and I tried clicking on this. I was getting really frustrated until I realized this was an image ...

Now, I feel like an idiot ... I am going to hide in a corner.

Those new shadows around windows really push things out at ya.

Football1maniac
Oct 1, 2007, 04:42 PM
How do updated OS's correlate to hardware? Does every new computer ordered after the shipping date is announced include leopard? ie If they announce leopard on the 10th and say it'll ship on 17th, and I order a macbook on 11th, will it include leopard?

I sadly, just bought a Windows Vista computer. I remember when Vista was released, it took a couple days or weeks maybe for laptops to ship with it already installed. Now, I don't think Apple would have laptops available with Leopard on it before the actual release of the OS. That's my opinion, but then again...Who really knows what Apple does now-a-days?:rolleyes::apple:

vertgo
Oct 1, 2007, 04:42 PM
Errr.... you can't take advantage of resolution independence yet anyway, since there are no high definition displays out there right now... these displays are not out yet, and that's not Apple's fault...

The other thing is time machine. Trust me, this is unlike any other bckup solution out there. It's built in, automatic and totally transparent. You won't notice it's there until it saves the day by giving you back the files you accidently erased or overwrote or your hard drive died. It's also efficient because it knows things about the system that 3rd party apps can't possibly know.

Yeah, you're right that the current displays aren't high enough resolution to make it a requirement to have resolution independence, but imagine kicking back away from your computer, turning up your UI, and having the stuff get bigger, without losing resolution (like now you'd have to use magnification). And already, i'd like to have everything a bit bigger than it is on my macbook. The iPhone really does a good job with using resolution independence in browser, i'd like to see that in a bigger form factor.

And the snapshotting in time machine is good, but the capabilities of snapshotting in ZFS are phenomenal, and it's a lot better of an option than just a simple overlay with HFS+ like it currently is.

I do admit though that I am pretty excited for the desktop sharing in iChat because, if it works as promised, it will really let me work with other people remotely without the hassle of trying to set up VNC. At the same time, I'm afraid it will be like video conferencing in iChat now, which means you can't use it without opening up ports, which I can't do with my ISP (and most people won't want to do to just use iChat, especially with multiple computers behind a NAT router, which is in almost every household and office that I know of).

Peace
Oct 1, 2007, 04:43 PM
Gladly. Pure speculation rarely wins out over, well.... ;)

Let me know what you wanna wager k?

oldwatery
Oct 1, 2007, 04:43 PM
No spit, Sherlock.

The iPhone was promised for June. When did it come out? The end of June.

Apple said that Leopard would come out in October. Last time I checked, there's 31 days in October. They didn't say October 1st, so please calm the heck down.

:apple:

Isn't that what Sherlock just said.....quite calmly I think.

reckless_0001
Oct 1, 2007, 04:44 PM
Thanks a lot ... I went away from the keyboard for a minute with this thread open. I guess I never really noticed the picture ... anyhow, I had software update running ... I got back, and I tried clicking on this. I was getting really frustrated until I realized this was an image ...

Now, I feel like an idiot ... I am going to hide in a corner.

Those new shadows around windows really push things out at ya.


Big LOL :D

I can see how you'd make that mistake.

loveturtle
Oct 1, 2007, 04:49 PM
...No ZFS and no resolution independent UI means that the two most revolutionary features with the most implications for the future of the platform are gone...

What makes you think there's no ZFS? I hate to brake it to everyone but just because you can't click on it in disk utility doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There is a little more to it than that.

It's common knowledge that not only is ZFS included in 10.5 but after 9a466 when the kext was switched to read only it came with the message

"ZFS Readonly implemntation is loaded! To download the full ZFS read/write kext with all functionality enabled, please go to http://developer.apple.com/"

This is known, and has been known. One can only assume that after the release we will be able to download a fully functional module and rock out. I have been counting on it. I will be very disappointed if this is not the case.

The idea that ZFS was ever going to be the default FS was never likely (there are a small amount of popular applications that don't play nice with a case sensitive FS, among other issues). Not to mention the way ZFS takes snapshots is completely different from what Time Machine does and anyone who ever saw Time Machine and had a clue about ZFS should have known right away that Time Machine was NOT using ZFS. I don't know why people are so eager to spread misinformation about topics they don't understand (I'm talking about every retard who ever claimed time machine was obviously using ZFS).

mdriftmeyer
Oct 1, 2007, 04:51 PM
What makes you think there's no ZFS? I hate to brake it to everyone but just because you can't click on it in disk utility doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There is a little more to it than that.

It's common knowledge that not only is ZFS included in 10.5 but after 9a466 when the kext was switched to read only it came with the message

"ZFS Readonly implemntation is loaded! To download the full ZFS read/write kext with all functionality enabled, please go to http://developer.apple.com/"

This is known, and has been known. One can only assume that after the release we will be able to download a fully functional module and rock out. I have been counting on it. I will be very disappointed if this is not the case.

The idea that ZFS was ever going to be the default FS was never likely (there are a small amount of popular applications that don't play nice with a case sensitive FS, among other issues). Not to mention the way ZFS takes snapshots is completely different from what Time Machine does and anyone who ever saw Time Machine and had a clue about ZFS should have known right away that Time Machine was NOT using ZFS. I don't know why people are so eager to spread misinformation about topics they don't understand (I'm talking about every retard who ever claimed time machine was obviously using ZFS).

Save your breath. People whining didn't invest $500 or $3499 for Select/Premier memberships. If they did, these comments would be still be coming, just not from them.

motulist
Oct 1, 2007, 04:53 PM
Networking fixes and Software Update system fixes? Those sound like big issues to be working on for something close to a release candidate, don't you think? Considering a turn around time of 2 weeks to go from golden master to pressed, packaged and delivered product, that means Apple only has 2 weeks to have the OS totally completed.

Those sound like big issues to be working on with 2 weeks left on the clock.

cptpower
Oct 1, 2007, 04:54 PM
All prior versions of OSX ( at least >=10.2 ) have been so 10.5 should be no different

Well that's good news! Hopefully that holds true for 10.5.

loveturtle
Oct 1, 2007, 04:55 PM
And the snapshotting in time machine is good, but the capabilities of snapshotting in ZFS are phenomenal, and it's a lot better of an option than just a simple overlay with HFS+ like it currently is.

Right, However it seems to me that Apple wants snapshots stored on another disk. Time Machine requires a firewire disk or similar from what I understand.

ZFS can't do this, ZFS uses a cow method so that blocks are never overwritten and instead new blocks are written in their place and the snapshotting is simply done by not freeing the old blocks.

CJD2112
Oct 1, 2007, 04:58 PM
Yeah, you're right that the current displays aren't high enough resolution to make it a requirement to have resolution independence, but imagine kicking back away from your computer, turning up your UI, and having the stuff get bigger, without losing resolution (like now you'd have to use magnification). And already, i'd like to have everything a bit bigger than it is on my macbook. The iPhone really does a good job with using resolution independence in browser, i'd like to see that in a bigger form factor.

Wait, how are they not high enough resolution? My 23" Aluminum Cinema Display is High Def, with 1080P. How does that not qualify enough for resolution independence? :confused:

motulist
Oct 1, 2007, 05:02 PM
Wait, how are they not high enough resolution? My 23" Aluminum Cinema Display is High Def, with 1080P. How does that not qualify enough for resolution independence? :confused:

Well, when size increases with resolution then dpi stays constant. So twice the resolution on a screen twice the size means all on screen objects will be the same actual size on screen (in centimeters).

Anyone know the dpi on a 23" 1080p monitor?

EDIT: So the on screen buttons on your monitor would display at the same size (in centimeters) as an 11.5" screen running at a low resolution of (1080's resolution divided by 2, whatever that's be).

offwidafairies
Oct 1, 2007, 05:03 PM
Still no counter on Apple site. Think their gonna try and jump it on us?

I hope so. And a few more puter updates :D

CJD2112
Oct 1, 2007, 05:06 PM
Well, when size increases with resolution then dpi stays constant. So twice the resolution on a screen twice the size means all on screen objects will be the same actual size on screen in centimeters.

Anyone know the dpi on a 23" 1080p monitor?

Ok, my head hurts now lol (yeah, sucks being blond). Ok, I think I get it. I don't know the DPI on this baby, I'll check it out. Thanks!

/dev/toaster
Oct 1, 2007, 05:06 PM
9a567 GM seed 10/4.Timer on Apple.com 10/5.Released 10/19

If you add the number 10 to all of your values, that sounds a little closer to reality ... however, I hope you are right :D

quovadis
Oct 1, 2007, 05:08 PM
I see the GM around the corner - with my corner scope :D

Muzzway
Oct 1, 2007, 05:09 PM
Looking at the main forums page, I thought Apple had released Leopard. :rolleyes:

akac
Oct 1, 2007, 05:10 PM
All of the great OS level changes that were supposed to come with Leopard are conspicuously absent. No ZFS and no resolution independent UI means that the two most revolutionary features with the most implications for the future of the platform are gone. I was seriously excited about Leopard, but every day that we get closer to gold master means that these will not be in there.


ZFS is the only great OS level change you can think of? OMG. Btw Res Independent UI is in Leopard. Its just frankly not finished, though I expect it will be by 10.5.x in 2008. Also Btw, there are huge major changes in Leopard under the hood in the OS. Most of the things you mentioned are not really OS pieces, they are apps.

flopticalcube
Oct 1, 2007, 05:10 PM
Anyone know the dpi on a 23" 1080p monitor?


About 96 dpi

Peace
Oct 1, 2007, 05:11 PM
The Reason Apple wants developers to be Resolution Independent by January 2008 is because new High Definition Displays will be introduced at MWSF'08 and will have a much higher DPI than the current displays.Which I think are either 72dpi or 110dpi.Not exactly sure.The new displays will probably be around 200-300dpi thus utilizing RI much better.


Just a wild guess , I know nothing speculation mind you.:)


96dpi.thanks Flopiticalcube

ipedro
Oct 1, 2007, 05:12 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if they're far behind on Res. Independence and ZFS and have cut it out of 10.5 Leopard only to release 10.6 with a default ZFS and Res. Independence with new Cinema Displays @ MacWorld 08 in January.

I think we're at the end of OSX after this.

motulist
Oct 1, 2007, 05:14 PM
About 96 dpi

Okay, so since the old standard for displays was ~75 dpi, and this display is ~100 dpi, that means that on screen buttons will now be about 25% smaller than they used to be. I'd say that's enough for people to start having a legitimate need (in terms of efficiency) for resolution independence.

CJD2112
Oct 1, 2007, 05:16 PM
The Reason Apple wants developers to be Resolution Independent by January 2008 is because new High Definition Displays will be introduced at MWSF'08 and will have a much higher DPI than the current displays.Which I think are either 72dpi or 110dpi.Not exactly sure.The new displays will probably be around 200-300dpi thus utilizing RI much better.


Just a wild guess , I know nothing speculation mind you.:)


96dpi.thanks Flopiticalcube



That's debatable. I have been waiting for a long time for new displays, as my one of my two 23" ACD's is over three years old. Apple has done very little in the display Pro line. My friend who works for Apple wrote this to me in response to asking about new displays:

"It's funny actually cuz I'm working on the next 'pro' version on the 30in HD monitor. The color reproduction is much better than the last version.. hence why the monitor will be ~$2500. However, it doesn't have IR or a camera. The picture is amazing, but rumor has it the project might be cancelled due to Apple's shift away from the 'pro' market. The next monitor project in the queue(30in mainstream monitor) will have most of those things. That probably won't be out for a year or so though. I will probably be writing the device firmware for it."

So who knows. I hope they do, I'd really hate to see Apple let go of their "Pro" line...

Lepton
Oct 1, 2007, 05:16 PM
Anyone seeing issues on things like syncing the address book with .mac?

DeaconGraves
Oct 1, 2007, 05:16 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if they're far behind on Res. Independence and ZFS and have cut it out of 10.5 Leopard only to release 10.6 with a default ZFS and Res. Independence with new Cinema Displays @ MacWorld 08 in January.

I think we're at the end of OSX after this.

Releasing a whole new version 3 months later? Crazy.

Geeze, if you think the iPhone whining has been bad....

akac
Oct 1, 2007, 05:17 PM
No they aren't. ZFS only showed up in earlier betas of the disk utility. Resolution independence as an SDK was exposed to developers in 10.4, but like ZFS, it disappeared in an earlier build of of the beta (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0706leopard9a4559gallery.html) and hasn't come back.

Using ThinkSecret screenshots as your information source is not a great idea. RI is in Leopard. The OS is capable of it now. All GUI controls are RI. All Windows are RI. Its the APPs that are not. Things like Finder (yes Finder is still an app). In Tiger the OS supported RI scaling, but it didn't do anything with this. In Leopard the controls actually draw beautifully at different scales and so on.
Yeah, I know, but it was one of the two features that really would set OSX ahead of its time, as visionary. Other than that, it's just UI differences between OSX and windows, and a couple of apps that are integrated into the OS. Nothing groundbreaking.

Maybe its me, but I don't want a groundbreaking file system when its untested. ZFS is still untested. Its in Solaris and it JUST got put in. In fact it was only recently made bootable. They need another 2-3 years of testing at am minimum before it goes to millions of consumers.

And again, you show ignorance in your comment in that its just some UI differences and a couple apps. Leopard makes dramatically huge changes to the actual OS. Things *you* don't see, but app developers do. It is why several app developers have already said their new apps will be Leopard only.

shawnce
Oct 1, 2007, 05:17 PM
Wait, how are they not high enough resolution? My 23" Aluminum Cinema Display is High Def, with 1080P. How does that not qualify enough for resolution independence? :confused:

It isn't about the size of the display but the density of pixels. It is about having say a 23" display with 50% more or greater number of pixels in the same physical area (144 DPI, 288 DPI, etc.).

Hardware with those capabilities wont come out until sometime in 2008 at earliest given costs of the components.

hotdamn
Oct 1, 2007, 05:17 PM
Resolution Independence is overrated so far. Wait 1-2 years, esp for the web to catch up. You can't make the web resolution independent without using scalable vector graphics.

Also, the GUI does not seem finalized. It's a half aqua half iTunes 7 bastard child, and personally, I'd love to see Aqua go.

Also, seeing this post WWDC beta status bar, the only positive thing I can think about it is that the Apple icon is black now.

BTW
Oct 1, 2007, 05:18 PM
Great news! Cmon, Golden Master!!!:rolleyes: I think they are really going to make an announcement soon. I mean, whe're already in Octobre! I really wan't to know when we can enjoy Leopard....

Yeah, an announcement would help detract from the iPhone backlash. Plus, I can't wait for it. :D

Ironduke
Oct 1, 2007, 05:19 PM
R I has more benefits then new 2008 displays, it counters the distances people sit from the screen, without turning the resolution down and everything goes chunky and ugly but readable

Tampa Tom
Oct 1, 2007, 05:20 PM
Networking fixes and Software Update system fixes? Those sound like big issues to be working on for something close to a release candidate, don't you think? Considering a turn around time of 2 weeks to go from golden master to pressed, packaged and delivered product, that means Apple only has 2 weeks to have the OS totally completed.

Those sound like big issues to be working on with 2 weeks left on the clock.

Loading up the last build of Leopard (9A559 ) on an iMac G4 with an Airport Extreme card caused the wireless network to slow to a crawl. Switching back to Tiger the wireless had full signal and blazed along. They do have issues to address before GM.

SiliconAddict
Oct 1, 2007, 05:21 PM
Dumbest post ever.

Why are you being a troll?

:apple:

Dumb but true. Only the zealots don't see it.

psychofreak
Oct 1, 2007, 05:22 PM
R I has more benefits then new 2008 displays, it counters the distances people sit from the screen, without turning the resolution down and everything goes chunky and ugly but readable

Don't forget people with bad eyesight with the same problem...

hotdamn
Oct 1, 2007, 05:23 PM
Again, you do realize that you can't just upscale a web page without breaking 50% of them, which will cause you to come closer to the screen, again.

It is really sad how little insight (and how big mouths) some people have.

psychofreak
Oct 1, 2007, 05:25 PM
Again, you do realize that you can't just upscale a web page without breaking 50% of them, which will cause you to come closer to the screen, again.

It is really sad how little insight (and how big mouths) some people have.

Most websites can be scaled one CMD+ stage with little or no harm...

SiliconAddict
Oct 1, 2007, 05:25 PM
I've been meaning to ask someone to try an app in Leopard. Does anyone know if SMCFanControl works in Leopard. Its a must have before I upgrade.

hotdamn
Oct 1, 2007, 05:26 PM
In reply to Psychofreak:
Except the randomly shifting images.

Click on the hit reply button and check out how everything but the fonts remains the same size, for example the whole bold, italic etc. stuff, the smilies, ... it does not really make matters a whole lot better.

shawnce
Oct 1, 2007, 05:27 PM
R I has more benefits then new 2008 displays, it counters the distances people sit from the screen, without turning the resolution down and everything goes chunky and ugly but readable

On a fixed pixel display anything other then native resolution for that display is going to look bad. RI will help but it is still dealing with a fixed pixel device.

Once you get a display with smaller/more pixels this ugliness will be reduced since it has more pixels to work with.

kbrain2929
Oct 1, 2007, 05:28 PM
I can hear that famous music... "Ladies and Gentlemen...... leeeetsssss get ready to RUMBLE!!!" Gold Master is only days away. We are in October, and Leopard is only a few weeks away! I would expect to see a media invite soon! Since I can already see another special event soon, the invites should be going out soon! Maybe in the next few days?? :rolleyes: Common' Apple... give us an update! :apple:

psychofreak
Oct 1, 2007, 05:30 PM
In reply to Psychofreak:
Except the randomly shifting images.

Click on the hit reply button and check out how everything but the fonts remains the same size, for example the whole bold, italic etc. stuff, the smilies, ... it does not really make matters a whole lot better.

It sure does for my grandad, who has quite bad eyesight...he often is on news websites and increasing the text size on a long article is useful to him, even if the images to shift around a little.

InLikeALion
Oct 1, 2007, 05:32 PM
Again, you do realize that you can't just upscale a web page without breaking 50% of them, which will cause you to come closer to the screen, again.

It is really sad how little insight (and how big mouths) some people have.

As a graphic designer and not a developer, that is something I have been wondering. For photoshop i've been wanting the new hi-res screens, but then when it comes to building/coding/viewing websites I can't figure out how that would be done! I work for clients with customer demographics who have diverse enough equipment to necessitate that I still build in 800x600px. 800x600px would be about 3x1.8" on new hi res displays - not very functional.? Any thoughts?

/dev/toaster
Oct 1, 2007, 05:33 PM
I've been meaning to ask someone to try an app in Leopard. Does anyone know if SMCFanControl works in Leopard. Its a must have before I upgrade.

Odd thing is, I haven't needed it. Not sure if they are doing something different, but my machine under leopard runs much cooler then under tiger.

gusapple
Oct 1, 2007, 05:36 PM
My PREDICTION is that Apple will put up the ticker tomorrow. But, don't get mad at me saying it didn't tomorrow, because this is my opinion. I saw so many people try to bring faith to iPhone users by saying that the firmware update 1.1.1 was coming out "tonight" or "tomorrow". I am not trying to say anything, but it's about time that Apple at least gave us an exact date!:)

mandoman
Oct 1, 2007, 05:36 PM
My money is on Tuesday Oct 30th as Leopard day, with
that launch date announced 1-2 weeks beforehand.

kbrain2929
Oct 1, 2007, 05:37 PM
My PREDICTION is that Apple will put up the ticker tomorrow. But, don't get mad at me saying it didn't tomorrow, because this is my opinion. I saw so many people try to bring faith to iPhone users by saying that the firmware update 1.1.1 was coming out "tonight" or "tomorrow". I am not trying to say anything, but it's about time that Apple at least gave us an exact date!:)

I agree! It WILL be very soon!!:apple:

Renko31
Oct 1, 2007, 05:39 PM
Hi

Glad to hear Leopard is getting closer.

Don't know if anybody else has noticed, but the UK Apple store has had a refresh, and Tiger is no longer on the front page, either on its own or under any of the Top 10s. You can still find it if you click on Apple Software though. Probably not surprising - but it stood out to me.

Renko

thefunkymunky
Oct 1, 2007, 05:41 PM
Oh dear. Seem to be a few bugs in this lastest seed.

This is -really- weird. I'm a Firefox user but opened Safari to show a friend web clip and after updating, Safari doesn't seem to have that functionality. In addition, the buttons have been reverted from the metal Leopard look to how they look in Tiger. Picture below.

http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=15316

comebackdwn
Oct 1, 2007, 05:44 PM
i dont think leopard is real. its all a hoax. :eek:

Peace
Oct 1, 2007, 05:45 PM
Oh dear. Seem to be a few bugs in this lastest seed.



http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=15316

THAT is simply not true.Period.End of story.If I were you I wouldn't believe people that use pirated copies.

decksnap
Oct 1, 2007, 05:45 PM
As a graphic designer and not a developer, that is something I have been wondering. For photoshop i've been wanting the new hi-res screens, but then when it comes to building/coding/viewing websites I can't figure out how that would be done! I work for clients with customer demographics who have diverse enough equipment to necessitate that I still build in 800x600px. 800x600px would be about 3x1.8" on new hi res displays - not very functional.? Any thoughts?

The biggest problem with resolution independence is the internet. Just because you can scale text up doesn't mean every other pixel-perfect image, graphic and icon won't look awful. I don't see how this can be achieved in even the next five years. I suppose you could scale it at exact multiples to preserve pixel edges... I'm trying to imagine how many years it will take before everything on the internet isn't 72 dpi.


PS... I don't know what Peace's deal is or where the hell he comes from.... but I wouldn't bet against him!

Mac OS X Ocelot
Oct 1, 2007, 05:45 PM
Dumb but true. Only the zealots don't see it.

Am I wrong, or was Leopard in development before the iPhone. Am I wrong, or are Leopard and the iPhone in two separate departments. Am I wrong, or does Leopard's development have nothing to do with the iPhone. Am I wrong, or do most mac users not give a **** about the iPhone and would love to see you babies quit whining? Am I wrong, or is whatever problem 1% of the iPhone customers have not going to ruin Apple.

BornAgainMac
Oct 1, 2007, 05:45 PM
If there isn't any annoucement on Tuesday or at least by Friday of a shipping date then I am going to get worried. I am sure the duplication process is getting setup for a massive effort to get these things out.

I like the theory that Leopard is ready and they are just working on the first download update.

psychofreak
Oct 1, 2007, 05:47 PM
The biggest problem with resolution independence is the internet. Just because you can scale text up doesn't mean every other pixel-perfect image, graphic and icon won't look awful. I don't see how this can be achieved in even the next five years. I suppose you could scale it at exact multiples to preserve pixel edges... I'm trying to imagine how many years it will take before everything on the internet isn't 72 dpi.

It doesn't take everything...people would be mostly satisfied if only around 30 major websites changed, and those are normally the ones with enough money to do so :)

swagi
Oct 1, 2007, 05:48 PM
http://www.macworld.com/news/2007/10/01/bootcamp/index.php

Great...so the decision for me is either buy Leopard or throw out the iMac and get a Vista machine running my main MSSQL database with .net.

Sorry Apple, but you really are annoying me with that decision. Putting Leopard on a machine that is running on Windows nearly 90% of the time I use it is just...hmmm...ridiculous.

CJD2112
Oct 1, 2007, 05:49 PM
It isn't about the size of the display but the density of pixels. It is about having say a 23" display with 50% more or greater number of pixels in the same physical area (144 DPI, 288 DPI, etc.).

Hardware with those capabilities wont come out until sometime in 2008 at earliest given costs of the components.

Well, I'm not referring to size but definition. Doesn't a monitor that supports 1080P high definition meet any part of those requirements? I realize size isn't the issue, but the quality of the picture. 1080P is the highest definition available on the marketplace.

Peace
Oct 1, 2007, 05:50 PM
Great...so the decision for me is either buy Leopard or throw out the iMac and get a Vista machine running my main MSSQL database with .net.

Sorry Apple, but you really are annoying me with that decision. Putting Leopard on a machine that is running on Windows nearly 90% of the time I use it is just...hmmm...ridiculous.

Quote of the day..:confused:

izzle22
Oct 1, 2007, 05:52 PM
Am I wrong, or was Leopard in development before the iPhone. Am I wrong, or are Leopard and the iPhone in two separate departments. Am I wrong, or does Leopard's development have nothing to do with the iPhone. Am I wrong, or do most mac users not give a **** about the iPhone and would love to see you babies quit whining? Am I wrong, or is whatever problem 1% of the iPhone customers have not going to ruin Apple.

You are half wrong and half right. You are right in the facts but 100% wrong in your opinion.

decksnap
Oct 1, 2007, 05:53 PM
Well, I'm not referring to size but definition. Doesn't a monitor that supports 1080P high definition meet any part of those requirements? I realize size isn't the issue, but the quality of the picture. 1080P is the highest definition available on the marketplace.

you're talking about pixels. You have to look at pixels per inch. Take the amount of pixels you have, and put it on a screen half the size. Or take your screen size, and double the amount of pixels. Then you'll want resolution independence.

CJD2112
Oct 1, 2007, 06:00 PM
you're talking about pixels. You have to look at pixels per inch. Take the amount of pixels you have, and put it on a screen half the size. Or take your screen size, and double the amount of pixels. Then you'll want resolution independence.

AHHHH, got it! Thanks (again). I always thought pixels and dots were similar :o

ChrisA
Oct 1, 2007, 06:04 PM
Unless the surprise feature is an iPhone SDK, a crippled Leopard won't save apple from the whole bad decision iceberg that is smashing into their titanic.

A agree. They wasted so many resources building a phone that they dropped the ball on their core business of computers.

They really should have Time Machine integrated into the file system. Anyone here old enough to remember VAX/VMS? Remember how it kept old versoins of files? That was truly useful and when was that? About 1980?

screensaver400
Oct 1, 2007, 06:05 PM
Well, I'm not referring to size but definition. Doesn't a monitor that supports 1080P high definition meet any part of those requirements? I realize size isn't the issue, but the quality of the picture. 1080P is the highest definition available on the marketplace.

Not quite. 1080p refers to a vertical resolution of 1080 lines. The maximum resolution of the current 30" Cinema display is 2560 x 1600, far exceeding 1080p.

Also, it's about PPI-- pixels per inch. If there was a 100' screen with a resolution of 5000 x 3200, it wouldn't be good for Resolution Independence. What's needed is to cram a lot of pixels into a fixed amount of space.

psychofreak
Oct 1, 2007, 06:06 PM
A agree. They wasted so many resources building a phone that they dropped the ball on their core business of computers.

They really should have Time Machine integrated into the file system. Anyone here old enough to remember VAX/VMS? Remember how it kept old versoins of files? That was truly useful and when was that? About 1980?

Like iPhoto...that would take up a huge amount of space...maybe when we have multi TB HDs as standard...

stefanski
Oct 1, 2007, 06:07 PM
I've been running the latest Leopard versions on both, my MacPro and the MBPro as I considered them stable enough for the first time. I am however still far less confident than most people here. There are quite a few issues to be solved before they can possibly release this into the wild. All I see is an announcement that Leopard will be delayed until the end of 2007. They may be close, but in my books they aren't there yet.

Too many gadgets these days. Leopard turned from something exceptional to just your average OS upgrade. Mainly because of too much hype to start with and no follow ups. Apple would have to be extremely confident to release any new smoking gun like features with Leopard now and if this is all we get, then we have very little to work with over the next few years. There are just simply no outstanding features apart from true 64bit support. There is nothing ground breaking included. No new technologies, no nothing. The OS may look good but that's hardly enough.

Yep, I hear the Apple fanboys but they do no good to start with as their mind is clouded and they are unable to come up with something a bit more substantial than constant ranting. All I want is something exceptionally good coming out of Apple and the current Version of Leopard is not going to be enough.

:apple: :(

BTW
Oct 1, 2007, 06:07 PM
Great...so the decision for me is either buy Leopard or throw out the iMac and get a Vista machine running my main MSSQL database with .net.

Sorry Apple, but you really are annoying me with that decision. Putting Leopard on a machine that is running on Windows nearly 90% of the time I use it is just...hmmm...ridiculous.

Dude! Get a Dell. ;)

Seriously, if you use Windows 90% of the time then get a PC. It had always been known that Bootcamp was beta and was going to go away on Tiger when Leopard came around. This decision was made from the get-go.

ipedro
Oct 1, 2007, 06:08 PM
Releasing a whole new version 3 months later? Crazy.

Geeze, if you think the iPhone whining has been bad....

Why crazy? OSX 10.0 Cheetah was released in March 2001 and Puma was released in September of the same year, a mere 6 months later.

I think that ZFS and Resolution Independence are sufficient modifications to justify a new OS point number.

If they had initially included those two in the early Leopard betas, they did have the intention of using them. Once Steve Jobs announced that there would be a delay, those features went missing from the subsequent Betas...
The Sun CEO even announced that ZFS would be the main system in Leopard.

Is this making any sense? In this theory, Apple encountered problems in using ZFS and decided to remove it from Leopard since it wasn't an announced feature. Perhaps it was one of the SECRET FEATURES Jobs looked forward to announcing, an announcement which turned out to be anti climatic.

All indications pointed towards a substantial revolutionary feature.
Either ZFS implementation sees the light of day shortly after OS 10.5 is released or perhaps @ WWDC 2008.

kbrain2929
Oct 1, 2007, 06:08 PM
I've been running the latest Leopard versions on both, my MacPro and the MBPro as I considered them stable enough for the first time. I am however still far less confident than most people here. There are quite a few issues to be solved before they can possibly release this into the wild. All I see is an announcement that Leopard will be delayed until the end of 2007. They may be close, but in my books they aren't there yet.

Too many gadgets these days. Leopard turned from something exceptional to just your average OS upgrade. Mainly because of too much hype to start with and no follow ups. Apple would have to be extremely confident to release any new smoking gun like features with Leopard now and if this is all we get, then we have very little to work with over the next few years. There are just simply no outstanding features apart from true 64bit support. There is nothing ground breaking included. No new technologies, no nothing. The OS may look good but that's hardly enough.

Yep, I hear the Apple fanboys but they do no good to start with as their mind is clouded and they are unable to come up with something a bit more substantial than constant ranting. All I want is something exceptionally good coming out of Apple and the current Version of Leopard is not going to be enough.

:apple: :(

That's not what I wanted to hear!!! :( :mad: :apple:

MrCrowbar
Oct 1, 2007, 06:10 PM
Yeah, you're right that the current displays aren't high enough resolution to make it a requirement to have resolution independence, but imagine kicking back away from your computer, turning up your UI, and having the stuff get bigger, without losing resolution (like now you'd have to use magnification). And already, i'd like to have everything a bit bigger than it is on my macbook. The iPhone really does a good job with using resolution independence in browser, i'd like to see that in a bigger form factor.


Errr... what you want is to lower the resolution. :-) That's been around for ages, just open display preferences and choose a lower resolution. You won't notice it lost some detail since your further away from the display. I use the zoom feature a lot for watching videos, i.e. to browse the finder to get to the video. Nothing beats a dedicated CTRL button on the mouse :D

I'd love to be able to make everything smaller to fit more stuff on my screen. The default fonts are a tad too big for me and tere's no way to make the menu bar etc smaller... Too bad Apple does not plan to let you choose your zoom factor. :-(

psychofreak
Oct 1, 2007, 06:11 PM
Dude! Get a Dell. ;)

Seriously, if you use Windows 90% of the time then get a PC. It had always been known that Bootcamp was beta and was going to go away on Tiger when Leopard came around. This decision was made from the get-go.

There is that 10% that might be useful, and the iMac's design is outstanding...

ChrisA
Oct 1, 2007, 06:14 PM
1080P is the highest definition available on the marketplace.

Only if you are talking about mainstream consumer video formats.

Almost all LCD computer monitors 24" and larger have more than 1024 lines of resolution. And almost all still cameras sold today have many more then 1024 lines of resolution. For example a 6MP camera has about 2000 lines.

The best way to think about "resolution independentce" is to notice that printers have worked this way for a long time. When you trade in you 300 DPI laser printer for a new 1200 DPI printer you do not get very small printouts you get sharper printouts. The same will hapen with screens. Some day you will buy a 200 DPI screen and you will get sharper text but today you'd only get small text. To enable this screen driver software will need to be replaced and some applications re-written to use it.

Schtumple
Oct 1, 2007, 06:19 PM
Great...so the decision for me is either buy Leopard or throw out the iMac and get a Vista machine running my main MSSQL database with .net.

Sorry Apple, but you really are annoying me with that decision. Putting Leopard on a machine that is running on Windows nearly 90% of the time I use it is just...hmmm...ridiculous.

So you bought a mac to run windows?

I did the opposite with my PC :D

Could resolution independance be released as a seperate add-on app for leopard?

HailToTheVictor
Oct 1, 2007, 06:21 PM
No spit, Sherlock.

The iPhone was promised for June. When did it come out? The end of June.

Apple said that Leopard would come out in October. Last time I checked, there's 31 days in October. They didn't say October 1st, so please calm the heck down.

:apple:


Apple first said June, and what did they say in June? October. That's what they said

psychofreak
Oct 1, 2007, 06:22 PM
Could resolution independance be released as a seperate add-on app for leopard?

Yes, it wouldn't be an app per-say :)

MrCrowbar
Oct 1, 2007, 06:22 PM
Not quite. 1080p refers to a vertical resolution of 1080 lines. The maximum resolution of the current 30" Cinema display is 2560 x 1600, far exceeding 1080p.

Also, it's about PPI-- pixels per inch. If there was a 100' screen with a resolution of 5000 x 3200, it wouldn't be good for Resolution Independence. What's needed is to cram a lot of pixels into a fixed amount of space.

Hmmm, I think I'll take the 100" screen anyway :D
It would probably make my desk flip bakwards and make me move my head a lot but damn, that would be nice. I might consider going back to one single screen again :p

Still waiting for a flat panel TV that doesn't look like cr*p... it's either a bad panel with bad contrast, bad colors, bad viewing angle, or an awesome panel with a crappy picture processor that either makes everything super blurry or stuttering or flickering. Does any manufacturer make an affordable HDTV without the tuner? All I want is a big display (24"-32") with 720p and a DVI or HDMI input, no speakers, no tuner. My eyeTV tuner delivers a far better picture than any of those TV tuners. :mad: Think I'll buy one of those high def projectors, they're starting to get affordable and nice.

brewcitywi
Oct 1, 2007, 06:22 PM
If you wanted a new iMac, it would be interesting to be able to get iLife '08 and Leopard (plus the new keyboard) and 20" screen for $1,199. It is kind of cool, I think. Maybe a good time to enter the market.

Leopard to divert from the iPhone? Come on now, Leopard's been announced to be released at the end of October for a long time. Some of you have so many 1's and 0's going on in your heads that it's causing dementia.

acslater017
Oct 1, 2007, 06:30 PM
Leopard to divert from the iPhone? Come on now, Leopard's been announced to be released at the end of October for a long time. Some of you have so many 1's and 0's going on in your heads that it's causing dementia.

i think people are complaining about the iPhone diverting resources away from LEOPARD. and Apple actually said flat out that iPhone was the reason for Leopard's delay from June. sorry, maybe i'm misunderstanding.

mmcxiiad
Oct 1, 2007, 06:32 PM
Am I wrong, or was Leopard in development before the iPhone. Am I wrong, or are Leopard and the iPhone in two separate departments. Am I wrong, or does Leopard's development have nothing to do with the iPhone. Am I wrong, or do most mac users not give a **** about the iPhone and would love to see you babies quit whining? Am I wrong, or is whatever problem 1% of the iPhone customers have not going to ruin Apple.

Am I wrong or are you asking questions that no one can answer including yourself?

Unless you work for apple or really know - how does anyone know what is true or what you want to believe. According to Employee #1 (Steve Jobs), at the internal keynote right before the iphone launch, the same development team that works on the OS also works on the iphone OS and ipod OS. Is this true? I don't know. I am sure that the very core of OSX is used in the iphone and new ipods, but is there cross over in deveolper roles? Buddy, your guess is right or wrong as anyone else who doesn't work for apple.

Likewise, anyone who knows how long the iphone has ben in development isn't going to be posting on these boards. So maybe the iphone has been on the drawing boards Longer the leopard. My best guess would be that it was. I can't even imagine the leadtime it would take to get all the pieces in place from concept to alpha development to shopping for the carrier to beta testing to release.

tcoleman
Oct 1, 2007, 06:40 PM
Call me crazy, but I was wondering about the likelihood of an October 23 release. If you look at the Apple promos (http://www.apple.com/promo/) page, you will see that the current promotions expire on October 22, which is a Monday. Is that too convenient?

Bregalad
Oct 1, 2007, 06:56 PM
One of the only known issues with 9A559 was a risk of data corruption when installing on PowerPC machines. Thus the current build cannot be the GM because you can't fix a corrupted install with Software Update.

motulist
Oct 1, 2007, 06:59 PM
I work for clients with customer demographics who have diverse enough equipment to necessitate that I still build [websites] in 800x600px. 800x600px would be about 3x1.8" on new hi res displays - not very functional.? Any thoughts?

There's a solution that some people use, but it's not gonna put a smile on your face. You can create different versions of your website that are optimized for different sized resolutions, then put in code to first check the monitor resolution the computer is running, and then have the server send the version of the site optimized for that particular resolution.

It's a kludge to be sure, but at the moment it's the only way to do it that I know about.

GravityEyes
Oct 1, 2007, 07:00 PM
Anyone seeing issues on things like syncing the address book with .mac?

A lot of new sync features (including notes- iPhone users!) however, they all seemed disabled - pending official release.

Ben Logan
Oct 1, 2007, 07:01 PM
I'm so glad they invented the Mac operating system and created ten versions of it over twenty years so they can release updates on it to distract customers from the trainwreck that they knew the iPhone would be twenty years ago.

They'd need Time Machine to calculate a move like this. :o

elppa
Oct 1, 2007, 07:06 PM
All of the great OS level changes that were supposed to come with Leopard are conspicuously absent. No ZFS and no resolution independent UI means that the two most revolutionary features with the most implications for the future of the platform are gone. I was seriously excited about Leopard, but every day that we get closer to gold master means that these will not be in there.

The other things, Spaces, even time warp can be done as applications sitting on top of the OS (well time warp would require some kind of version control like svn but still, it's not nearly as great as having a display of incredible resolution that won't require that my old man eyes have to be 1 inch away from the screen).

Unless the surprise feature is an iPhone SDK, a crippled Leopard won't save apple from the whole bad decision iceberg that is smashing into their titanic.

pass me a rope…

ZFS was "announced" by Sun, not Apple. True Apple were looking at implementing it. Although my technical knowledge is not perfect (I try to understand as much as I can) it would be advantageous to replace HFS+ with ZFS as the default filesystem.

I think full support may come in 10.6, with it being used as the default in 10.7.

I also think internally Apple is fully aware of the high expectations users have for each Mac OS X update. 10.6 may include more "user" features. A lot of the good stuff in 10.5 is for developers, but in turn this benefits users because they get better apps.

I'm so glad they invented the Mac operating system and created ten versions of it over twenty years so they can release updates on it to distract customers from the trainwreck that they knew the iPhone would be twenty years ago.

What happened to version 5? ;)

Also 7, 7.5, 8 & 9 were like 10.3, 10.4, 10.5 etc.

That's debatable. I have been waiting for a long time for new displays, as my one of my two 23" ACD's is over three years old. Apple has done very little in the display Pro line. My friend who works for Apple wrote this to me in response to asking about new displays:

"It's funny actually cuz I'm working on the next 'pro' version on the 30in HD monitor. The color reproduction is much better than the last version.. hence why the monitor will be ~$2500. However, it doesn't have IR or a camera. The picture is amazing, but rumor has it the project might be cancelled due to Apple's shift away from the 'pro' market. The next monitor project in the queue(30in mainstream monitor) will have most of those things. That probably won't be out for a year or so though. I will probably be writing the device firmware for it."

So who knows. I hope they do, I'd really hate to see Apple let go of their "Pro" line...

Why would they if it is profitable? Video, photography, DTP etc.

Why would they make a "mainstream" monitor when all of their "mainstream" desktops bar the mini are all in ones.

Networking fixes and Software Update system fixes? Those sound like big issues to be working on with 2 weeks left on the clock.

Depends on the severity of the problem. They will be going around the clock, so I don't see it as a problem. You can do a lot in an hour or a day.

Great...so the decision for me is either buy Leopard or throw out the iMac and get a Vista machine running my main MSSQL database with .net.

Sorry Apple, but you really are annoying me with that decision. Putting Leopard on a machine that is running on Windows nearly 90% of the time I use it is just...hmmm...ridiculous.

Your reading the worst.

[1] Windows will still boot.
[2] What's to say Apple won't shove out the final (not beta) version of Bootcamp for Tiger once they ship Leopard.

dopeasy
Oct 1, 2007, 07:13 PM
Briefly, I dunno about ZFS, but RI is definately, most positively in leopard. Its in Tiger, also, but its much more implemented in leopard. You know how coverflow works in the finder....thats RI. Go look at some of the hi def images of icons that are included in the new os...they just pop out at you. The newest build is very much stable and faaaaaast, and perhaps when people use it they will realize that it is really light years ahead of tiger. The whole experience seems to fit exactly with the industrial feel of the aluminium shells of the imac's and macbook pro's, just like, you know, inside the computer, dude.

Now all I need to get over my OCD is for the notes and todo lists in the iphone to start making nice with the notes and todo lists that are for some reason in the mail client of leopard.

CJD2112
Oct 1, 2007, 07:15 PM
i think people are complaining about the iPhone diverting resources away from LEOPARD. and Apple actually said flat out that iPhone was the reason for Leopard's delay from June. sorry, maybe i'm misunderstanding.

That is exactly what people are saying, and what Jobs admitted was the main reason for the delay. Further, people have been stating (with good reason) that Leopard has hit some bumps because Jobs has kept a good portion of Leopards team still working on iPhone updates, specifically those updates that address hacking and unlocking the device.

GravityEyes
Oct 1, 2007, 07:15 PM
hmmmm, there is a HUGE misunderstanding or Res Independance. Ive tried it ... Its cool. And will be useful to some, not for most.

!ˇ V ˇ!
Oct 1, 2007, 07:54 PM
hmmmm, there is a HUGE misunderstanding or Res Independance. Ive tried it ... Its cool. And will be useful to some, not for most.

Similar to having the ability to have 8+GB on a MacPro. :)

People want a great deal of features, and rightfully so as you are paying quite a bit for a new version of the Operating System. However in the end majority of the users only use a portion of the included feature list.

It's about having it and not utilizing it, instead of not having it and not knowing what you might me missing out on. ;)

!ˇ V ˇ!
Oct 1, 2007, 07:57 PM
That is exactly what people are saying, and what Jobs admitted was the main reason for the delay. Further, people have been stating (with good reason) that Leopard has hit some bumps because Jobs has kept a good portion of Leopards team still working on iPhone updates, specifically those updates that address hacking and unlocking the device.

:apple: is a multi-billion dollar a year corporation in business for over 20+ years. I am sure they can hire more programmers if required to get the job done. Taking away resources from one area to place temporary in another is common, however when the your companies core business is starting to lose your own interest you start to run into problems, such as missed product shipping dates.

vertgo
Oct 1, 2007, 07:59 PM
Am I wrong, or does Leopard's development have nothing to do with the iPhone. Am I wrong, or do most mac users not give a **** about the iPhone and would love to see you babies quit whining? Am I wrong, or is whatever problem 1% of the iPhone customers have not going to ruin Apple.

You are wrong. Apple has said this:
"iPhone contains the most sophisticated software ever shipped on a mobile device, and finishing it on time has not come without a price -- we had to borrow some key software engineering and QA resources from our Mac OS X team, and as a result we will not be able to release Leopard at our Worldwide Developers Conference in early June as planned."

And every mac user I know cares greatly about the iPhone. Let's take a look at this forum and see how many of us are mac users vs how many of us care about the iPhone.

CJD2112
Oct 1, 2007, 08:13 PM
Why would they if it is profitable? Video, photography, DTP etc.

Why would they make a "mainstream" monitor when all of their "mainstream" desktops bar the mini are all in ones.


Exactly. I was disappointed to read that, but I've gotten similar responses from Apple insiders. I hope it's just conjecture. Why would Apple leave out the displays from their product line? It makes no sense as they would certainly want to sell a display with their Mac Pro (or Mac Mini, but then again not many people would pay more for the display than the computer itself). However, Apple hasn't given a serious update to their display line in over three years (just slight changes), unlike the many revamps of the iMac, iPod, etc. It's baffling (and again, for those who say there is no market for ACD's - which a lot of people on here have stated - then why has Apple made them AND placed them in many movies and television sets for product placement? doesn't add up).

CJD2112
Oct 1, 2007, 08:16 PM
:apple: is a multi-billion dollar a year corporation in business for over 20+ years. I am sure they can hire more programmers if required to get the job done. Taking away resources from one area to place temporary in another is common, however when the your companies core business is starting to lose your own interest you start to run into problems, such as missed product shipping dates.

Exactly. As I can understand Jobs' desire in keeping Apple small (hence the company's hesitation in bringing in new and more people), it simply diverts needed manpower from core products, such as the case with Leopard and the iPhone. The reality Mr. Jobs needs to face, is when you expand your product line into new territories (such as the iPhone, :apple:TV, etc), you need to expand your companies resources by added departments that can concentrate fully on those products (and not just temporarily moving people around within the company). With growth comes growing pains, and it appears the orchards in Cupertino are starting to feel the weight of too many apples and not enough farmers.

B. Hunter
Oct 1, 2007, 08:28 PM
I came here expecting to read what people have to say about Leopard.
Instead a number of people have chosen this thread to whine about the iPhone.
I don't give a crap about your 3rd grade complaints.
Stick to the topic at hand please.

izzle22
Oct 1, 2007, 08:41 PM
I came here expecting to read what people have to say about Leopard.
Instead a number of people have chosen this thread to whine about the iPhone.
I don't give a crap about your 3rd grade complaints.
Stick to the topic at hand please.

WHAT???? Nobody's whining about the iPhone. Maybe you should read the posts.

Dokter_Mac
Oct 1, 2007, 08:41 PM
One of the only known issues with 9A559 was a risk of data corruption when installing on PowerPC machines. Thus the current build cannot be the GM because you can't fix a corrupted install with Software Update.

I think you are confusing this with the previous seed.
Build 9a527 had issues with data corruption on "some" PPC Macs (like iBook G4). This is solved in build 9a559.

The airportmenu is much nicer now. They installed a new 802.11 framework (version 5.0 I think). You can see locked/unlocked networks much better now.
I did not test VPN yet, before the update from tonight I had issues with that.
If that works I would be a very happy man :).

My 2 cents about the GM: I think we are close :rolleyes:
The boxes are ready, the documentation is ready, specs are known, translation to all languages is ready, Non Apple Pro Apps are running well (like CS3, Quark, etc.), games are running well (man, Halo 2.0.2 is fast), etc.
If not end october, maybe begin (first weeks) november it will ship!
It will be for SURE BEFORE the holiday season.

phillipjfry
Oct 1, 2007, 08:58 PM
Are you two related?

Related? Or the same person?? :eek:

(sorry if someone already made the same comment, still reading page 1)

It's too obvious they are on RC and that GM will be announced this week. :)

hotdamn
Oct 1, 2007, 08:59 PM
I've been running the latest Leopard versions on both, my MacPro and the MBPro as I considered them stable enough for the first time. I am however still far less confident than most people here. There are quite a few issues to be solved before they can possibly release this into the wild. All I see is an announcement that Leopard will be delayed until the end of 2007. They may be close, but in my books they aren't there yet.

Too many gadgets these days. Leopard turned from something exceptional to just your average OS upgrade. Mainly because of too much hype to start with and no follow ups. Apple would have to be extremely confident to release any new smoking gun like features with Leopard now and if this is all we get, then we have very little to work with over the next few years. There are just simply no outstanding features apart from true 64bit support. There is nothing ground breaking included. No new technologies, no nothing. The OS may look good but that's hardly enough.

Yep, I hear the Apple fanboys but they do no good to start with as their mind is clouded and they are unable to come up with something a bit more substantial than constant ranting. All I want is something exceptionally good coming out of Apple and the current Version of Leopard is not going to be enough.

:apple: :(

Well, you Sir are either a thief or a liar.

First of all, are you even a developer?
Are you using the same Leopard that I am using that is about 2 times as fast as Tiger?

I don't even know where to begin.
No new technologies? Core Animation? Improvements in multi-core/threading?

I will say this: It is awesome if a new OS brings new features/apps, but mainly it exists to provide a technology framework for existing or coming applications that makes it easier and more likely for apps to become nicer, faster, stabler, less memory hungry etc.
Thus, Leopard brings the most changes under the hood any of the OS X releases have ever had.

However, what an OS should bring, is a fresh new look, and frankly, Leopard looks, and I apologize in advance for this analogy, kind of like a roadkill kitty right now.

Insane4Apple
Oct 1, 2007, 09:12 PM
this week they would have the feedback from their Leopard 9A557/9A559 Seed Update then next week they would release final candidate and be finished and do the duplicating process while announcing it for the tuesday after..so the 16th. or they might announce it tomorrow with that whole plan to give a 2 weeks prior notice. or they're going to be mean and release it the 30th to make it gold and perfect.... very very :mad: at Apple right now for being quiet.

seanneko
Oct 1, 2007, 09:55 PM
So, do these "wireless network fixes" fix the 10.4.10 Airport issues?

stefanski
Oct 1, 2007, 10:17 PM
Well, you Sir are either a thief or a liar.

First of all, are you even a developer?
Are you using the same Leopard that I am using that is about 2 times as fast as Tiger?

I don't even know where to begin.
No new technologies? Core Animation? Improvements in multi-core/threading?

I will say this: It is awesome if a new OS brings new features/apps, but mainly it exists to provide a technology framework for existing or coming applications that makes it easier and more likely for apps to become nicer, faster, stabler, less memory hungry etc.
Thus, Leopard brings the most changes under the hood any of the OS X releases have ever had.

However, what an OS should bring, is a fresh new look, and frankly, Leopard looks, and I apologize in advance for this analogy, kind of like a roadkill kitty right now.

Thanks so much for your kind words. You must be the chief engineer of the Leopard project for sure. I for one found it rather pointless to quote the features available on the apple website. Apart from that, improvement in multicore/threading is hardly mind blowing. Given the poor results of a MacPro 8 core, I'd say it was about time they did implement it properly. Not exactly my fault that Steve has promised the world back in January with all these hidden features of which we never saw anything except for a new finder.

Nobody is disputing that there is improvement under the hood. There'd better be... Why else would you release a new OS????

I said it's not ready in my books and you're calling me a thief or a liar only to go on ranting about well known features. I'm testing this release on different platforms and the problems are there for anybody to see who actually does give a damn about testing. You obviously rather look at shiny websites and quote features of it instead of trying to find out as many faults as you possibly can before the release. Leopard may well be faster than Tiger. So what? It may look good, too. So what? It has to do the job out there to get the tick of approval. You're happy with it, I'm not. Maybe you should start testing it instead of just staring at its pretty looking interface?

A cup of calming tea would probably help you, too? It's just incredible to see how blind some people are willing to be for the sake of glorifying a Beta release.

MacinDoc
Oct 1, 2007, 10:24 PM
So, do these "wireless network fixes" fix the 10.4.10 Airport issues?
Considering that 10.5 didn't evolve out of 10.4.10, the two are likely unrelated (10.4 and 10.5 had separate development tracks before work even started on 10.4.10).

jonhaxor
Oct 1, 2007, 11:14 PM
I came here expecting to read what people have to say about Leopard.
Instead a number of people have chosen this thread to whine about the iPhone.
I don't give a crap about your 3rd grade complaints.
Stick to the topic at hand please.

right on! grow up and learn how to stick to a subject - that's what us 4th graders know .. (we also know about bold and italics)

B. Hunter
Oct 1, 2007, 11:29 PM
right on! grow up and learn how to stick to a subject - that's what us 4th graders know .. (we also know about bold and italics)

How about bold italics.


Come on folks.
No need to bring up the development team being moved over to iPhone development, rather than focus on Leopard. That has been talked about umpteen times here already in the past.
I did not say everyone was doing that here.

arkmannj
Oct 1, 2007, 11:34 PM
I think you are confusing this with the previous seed.
Build 9a527 had issues with data corruption on "some" PPC Macs (like iBook G4). This is solved in build 9a559.

The airportmenu is much nicer now. They installed a new 802.11 framework (version 5.0 I think). You can see locked/unlocked networks much better now.
I did not test VPN yet, before the update from tonight I had issues with that.
If that works I would be a very happy man :).

My 2 cents about the GM: I think we are close :rolleyes:
The boxes are ready, the documentation is ready, specs are known, translation to all languages is ready, Non Apple Pro Apps are running well (like CS3, Quark, etc.), games are running well (man, Halo 2.0.2 is fast), etc.
If not end october, maybe begin (first weeks) november it will ship!
It will be for SURE BEFORE the holiday season.


I was going to ask if issues with CS3 ad gotten worked out, thanks for answering that for me :-)

I've read several people claiming to have legal access testing 10.5, some saying it's ready to go out the door, some saying it's still got some bugs.

Some people saying let it be released and bugs can be dealt with via updates.

here's my opinion. If Leopard is all ready then by all means release it, but if it still has bug, take the time to flush them out. I know they will never catch all of the bugs, and we could well see 10.5.999. But when I have an original install disk in my hands I want to know that it is stable,workable and contains all the features (both user visible, and under the hood) even without needing to think about updates. I want Leopard right now as much as anyone else, there are some features in there that I am really looking forward to and will help me tons. but if it's to buggy to replace 10.4.10 then either they need to wait to ship it, or many of us need to wait to install it.

Sorry for the rant, long-story-short : I'd rather have fresh install disks that I can rely on released in early/mid November then a buggy "but-we'll-fix-it-in-an-update" version. But, if Leopard is ready to roll then bring on the goodness, so we can all go out, party and drink our sparkling_apple_cider. :-)

TigerPRO
Oct 2, 2007, 12:01 AM
All of the great OS level changes that were supposed to come with Leopard are conspicuously absent. No ZFS and no resolution independent UI means that the two most revolutionary features with the most implications for the future of the platform are gone. I was seriously excited about Leopard, but every day that we get closer to gold master means that these will not be in there.

Please note that Leopard does have resolution independence:

http://developer.apple.com/leopard/overview/

The info is about halfway down the page.

budward
Oct 2, 2007, 12:23 AM
If only I could.. I would tell you the answer to a lot of your questions..

If only I could.. I would tell you *wow* and *but..*

If only I could tell you ... I would tell you.. *betcha didn't know that*

October release? Man they must have some fierce coders there at Apple..
Then again, I code by myself but part of a small team, I can only estimate how long it would take us...

and lastly..

If I wasn't so tired right now.. maybe I would.. I mean, if I could.

:-)

firedncin8nancy
Oct 2, 2007, 12:33 AM
i have really enjoyed watching leopard come along through the development process. i am having 2 small issues (someone let me know if they are having the same)

1) When I change the volume or brightness, the on-screen volume control (normally a white sound icon with the small square boxes indicating volume or brightness level) show up as a huge white blob

2) I lost support for my external sound card. It worked initially and then just stopped functioning. It is an m-audio mobile pre usb!

otherwise iam really enjoying the interface as well as the power behind leopard. the new finder is worth it by itself. can't wait to see the finished product

thebassoonist
Oct 2, 2007, 01:28 AM
Call me crazy, but I was wondering about the likelihood of an October 23 release. If you look at the Apple promos (http://www.apple.com/promo/) page, you will see that the current promotions expire on October 22, which is a Monday. Is that too convenient?

I actually think that the 23rd might be very likely. I don't know anything, but it is a Tuesday, and I think it will be released on a Tuesday.

wingmanmac
Oct 2, 2007, 03:30 AM
I woke up to a nightmare today: the "top secret" feature is actually 10.5 for windowssss.. omg:eek:

Mac OS X Ocelot
Oct 2, 2007, 05:29 AM
However, what an OS should bring, is a fresh new look, and frankly, Leopard looks, and I apologize in advance for this analogy, kind of like a roadkill kitty right now.

Mac OS X 10.5 Free Cat?

http://www.andreaharner.com/archives/pet.jpg

Locker
Oct 2, 2007, 05:48 AM
Don't know if this is anything significant, but I've just noticed the following on the Apple UK site: "Buy a Mac before October 30th, 2007, and a get a free iPod nano via mail-in rebate". Maybe a free iPod and Leopard is too much to offer, and it'll come out 30th/31st?

On another note, the UK store is currently down, though I guess they're adding the EA games lineup.

twoodcc
Oct 2, 2007, 06:05 AM
I actually think that the 23rd might be very likely. I don't know anything, but it is a Tuesday, and I think it will be released on a Tuesday.

some argue that it will be released on a friday, like tiger was

greenwrangler
Oct 2, 2007, 07:58 AM
At the same time, I'm afraid it will be like video conferencing in iChat now, which means you can't use it without opening up ports, which I can't do with my ISP (and most people won't want to do to just use iChat, especially with multiple computers behind a NAT router, which is in almost every household and office that I know of).

Ummm... most current NAT routers will allow opening ports to specific IP addresses easily. So that should not really be an issue.

RRK
Oct 2, 2007, 09:12 AM
Please note that Leopard does have resolution independence:

http://developer.apple.com/leopard/overview/

The info is about halfway down the page.

Cool, I hadn't seen that page.:cool:

RRK
Oct 2, 2007, 09:15 AM
I said it's not ready in my books and you're calling me a thief or a liar only to go on ranting about well known features.

What do you have two accounts or something? He was not quoting you.

iJawn108
Oct 2, 2007, 10:43 AM
Leopards come from Apple seeds.:D

ct-scan
Oct 2, 2007, 10:48 AM
Ummm... most current NAT routers will allow opening ports to specific IP addresses easily. So that should not really be an issue.

Too add to this response, and more importantly the original comment.
Most homes do NOT use Network Address Translation (NAT), they use Port Address Translation (PAT). NAT is a one-to-one mapping of IP addresses, which defeats the purpose of using a router to split a single IP address assigned by a ISP to multiple computers. PAT allows for a one-to-many mapping, where "many" is typically limited by your router's limitations.

This allows you to make specific ports on a single external IP address route to an internal IP address/port combo. All your internal (or server processes) of iChat could be running on the same (default) port, while your external IP addresss could have a sequence of open ports, one routing to each computer inside. As long as the iChat client process can connect to an IP:port address, you'll be fine.

JQW
Oct 2, 2007, 10:59 AM
Ummm... most current NAT routers will allow opening ports to specific IP addresses easily. So that should not really be an issue.

Universal Plug And Play will open the ports up without having to specifically set up rules on the router. I already use software that does this via my router, I just have to have uPNP enabled at the router end.

MM2270
Oct 2, 2007, 11:00 AM
Apple needs to wrap up development on Leopard very soon if they still plan to make the October ship date that Steve told us. We're in the beginning of the month, and it takes a little time to pick a GM candidate and get it to manufacturing. They've got slightly more than 4 weeks.

Hopefully Leopards release won't get pushed back even further. That would suck, but I doubt that will happen. We'll see.

CJD2112
Oct 2, 2007, 12:21 PM
They seem to be fluffing a lot recently.

cliffjumper68
Oct 2, 2007, 03:05 PM
Great news! Cmon, Golden Master!!!:rolleyes: I think they are really going to make an announcement soon. I mean, whe're already in Octobre! I really wan't to know when we can enjoy Leopard....

I have been waiting to buy a system for leopard, I hope it is released soon.

Lesser Evets
Oct 2, 2007, 04:12 PM
I believe 10.5 was already released on October 1st at 00:00:01...

Apple has recently shifted their motto from THINK SECRET to SELL SECRET.
So start digging, because it's out there and you know it.

nutmac
Oct 2, 2007, 05:44 PM
20-inch Cinema Display: 99 pixels per inch
23-inch Cinema Display: 98
30-inch Cinema Display: 102
20-inch iMac: 99
24-inch iMac: 94
MacBook: 113
15-inch MacBook Pro: 110
17-inch MacBook Pro: 117
17-inch MacBook Pro with optional 1920-by-1200: 133

Resolution independence would definitely benefit 17-inch MacBook Pros.

TheChemist
Oct 2, 2007, 11:17 PM
ct-scan:

In your opinion should NAT be disabled on a home network where the router is splitting one IP into six?

By having NAT disabled would it help or be detrimental to applications like iChat's video conferencing, P2P, streaming ?

Thanks for the info =)

thebassoonist
Oct 2, 2007, 11:40 PM
some argue that it will be released on a friday, like tiger was

Good argument! Ha ha, I really don't know. :D

kildjean
Oct 3, 2007, 10:38 AM
All of the great OS level changes that were supposed to come with Leopard are conspicuously absent. No ZFS and no resolution independent UI means that the two most revolutionary features with the most implications for the future of the platform are gone. The other things, Spaces, even time warp can be done as applications sitting on top of the OS (well time warp would require some kind of version control like svn but still,

um no... i dont know if you have been playing with Time Machine (not warp you twit), but Time Machine is going to be the best feature of Leopard. It is a trully welcomed addition to their OS because it will really help in recovering information that is so easily lost nowadays... Spaces if you use it well and you dont have the budget to buy two or three extra Display Real Estate. It will save you from buying a 2nd or 3rd monitor.

ZFS is a different beast, and I see it very useful in the Server portion of their game. If they release it later on leopard, then even better. This is not a Switching reason... its a cool thing that will happen when it happens.


it's not nearly as great as having a display of incredible resolution that won't require that my old man eyes have to be 1 inch away from the screen).

um for this, you don't need Leopard 10.5, nor lynx 10.6 nor Tabby Cat 10.9. He needs Lasik or better glasses. Better yet, I have seen on some fleamarkets around here, some big ass magnifying glasses you put in front of your display and they make it way BIGGER, unfortunately this is not a Software upgrade, more like a Hardware upgrade. But you get the picture.

Unless the surprise feature is an iPhone SDK, a crippled Leopard won't save apple from the whole bad decision iceberg that is smashing into their titanic.

The surprise feature? oh that... yes i remember now... well yeah the surprise feature is a plush doll from Fake Steve Jobs, that when you pull the string it says some funny quotes like the following:

"Do you want to be a part of history, or you want to make sugar water for the rest of your life?"

"Namaste!"

"One more thing..."

"Siooma!"

and many others. It also uses USB 3.0 and Wifi to download new quotes and ringtones from the new iTunes 8.0.

Dokter_Mac
Oct 3, 2007, 11:49 AM
I was going to ask if issues with CS3 ad gotten worked out, thanks for answering that for me :-)

I've read several people claiming to have legal access testing 10.5, some saying it's ready to go out the door, some saying it's still got some bugs.

Some people saying let it be released and bugs can be dealt with via updates.

here's my opinion. If Leopard is all ready then by all means release it, but if it still has bug, take the time to flush them out. I know they will never catch all of the bugs, and we could well see 10.5.999. But when I have an original install disk in my hands I want to know that it is stable,workable and contains all the features (both user visible, and under the hood) even without needing to think about updates. I want Leopard right now as much as anyone else, there are some features in there that I am really looking forward to and will help me tons. but if it's to buggy to replace 10.4.10 then either they need to wait to ship it, or many of us need to wait to install it.

Sorry for the rant, long-story-short : I'd rather have fresh install disks that I can rely on released in early/mid November then a buggy "but-we'll-fix-it-in-an-update" version. But, if Leopard is ready to roll then bring on the goodness, so we can all go out, party and drink our sparkling_apple_cider. :-)

Just about the bugs. No OS or program is bugfree.
That's why we are waiting for 10.4.11 now...
At some point Apple will need to decide if it's stable enough for GM.
I think they will. But I also think they are already preparing a 10.5.1 update for the bugs.
But after the 10.5.1 update, there will be still bugs...
I think you understand my point ;-)

SiliconAddict
Oct 3, 2007, 05:28 PM
Odd thing is, I haven't needed it. Not sure if they are doing something different, but my machine under leopard runs much cooler then under tiger.

Maybe in normal operations but I'm willing to bet the first time I fire up handbrake it going to get toasty. Under Tiger my temp easily get into the 150 range unless I rev up the fan.

The Flashing Fi
Oct 3, 2007, 05:52 PM
Maybe in normal operations but I'm willing to bet the first time I fire up handbrake it going to get toasty. Under Tiger my temp easily get into the 150 range unless I rev up the fan.

150 F or 150 C?

Manic Mouse
Oct 3, 2007, 05:55 PM
150 F or 150 C?

One would hope F, but being a European I don't understand what that means. Is it hot?

If Leopard does run slightly cooler than Leopard (better use of Intel Speed-Step tech?) then that's awesome.

psychofreak
Oct 3, 2007, 05:58 PM
One would hope F, but being a European I don't understand what that means. Is it hot?
Its 65.556 degrees C :)

The Flashing Fi
Oct 3, 2007, 09:14 PM
65 C is still pretty hot for a laptop, but tolerable, as long as this isn't an idle temperature and that 150 F is the temperature under load.

Macinposh
Oct 4, 2007, 04:33 AM
...and will have a much higher DPI than the current displays.Which I think are either 72dpi or 110dpi.Not exactly sure.The new displays will probably be around 200-300dpi thus utilizing RI much better



I doubt.

The 30" display has (2560x1600) with about 4.100.000 pixels with pixel density of what? 96?

Double it to 200dpi´s and you will have a display of 16.500.000 pixels.
Triple it to 300dpi´s and you will have a display of 39.000.000 pixels...

I wonder how long it will take to find a graphics card that can handle that kind of resolutions...
Maybe in 2012?

pgwalsh
Oct 4, 2007, 10:10 AM
Similar to having the ability to have 8+GB on a MacPro. :)

People want a great deal of features, and rightfully so as you are paying quite a bit for a new version of the Operating System. However in the end majority of the users only use a portion of the included feature list.


You're probably right. I don't use quite a few of the features in Tiger. However, I am looking forward to Spaces and Time Machine as major new features. I think the new finder and quick look will be something that will slowly enhance my experience. Maybe because I'm used to doing things a certain way right now.

I think the enhancements in Mail, iChat and iCal etc are nice, but I probably wont use them much. I don't use iChat as AdiumX is my client of choice. I have too many people on Yahoo. As for dashboard, I rarely use it and would love to be able to stick a few widgets on my desktop so they're always available. I'm not sure why Apple doesn't allow that. The web clip feature is cool, not sure how much I'll actually use it, but it's cool nonetheless. I'm actually looking forward to tabs in the terminal. I think that will be very useful.

Some of the improvements under the hood I think will make a difference being on the dual 3Ghz Mac Pro. The 64-Bit and multi-core will be nice. Not sure how much of an improvement - if any - we'll see, but it's cool.

lugesm
Oct 4, 2007, 10:43 AM
vertgo - - -

Quote: "No ZFS and no resolution independent UI means that the two most revolutionary features with the most implications for the future of the platform are gone."

Would you please explain "no resolution independent UI" for me? I think you are talking about something that's important to me also. I have this big, wonderful, high-resolution 24" iMac; and half the time I can't read something on the screen because the native resolution (1920x1200) makes things so small.

Dropping to a lower resolution makes things larger, but that just defeats the whole reason for a high resolution screen.

That is the one thing that is most irritating on the Mac. My Windows machine with a 22" flat panel monitor did not have this problem.

Simmerl
Oct 4, 2007, 10:55 AM
vertgo - - -

[I][B]Quote: "That is the one thing that is most irritating on the Mac. My Windows machine with a 22" flat panel monitor did not have this problem.

... you're claiming your Windows machine was capable of Resolution Independence?

-___________-

lugesm
Oct 4, 2007, 11:04 AM
[QUOTE=Simmerl;4281669]... you're claiming your Windows machine was capable of Resolution Independence?

NO. I started the post by stating that I did not understand the definition of "Resolution Independence" and went on to explain that I suspected it might have something to do with the fact that text is so small on a 1920x1200 monitor. Perhaps I was wrong in that assumption.

With Windows one is able to universally increase text size, so high resolution monitors do not diminish text to an unreadable level.

With a trend to larger, higher resolution, less expensive flat-panel monitors this will become a real problem . . . I think.

. . . . and I still don't know what "Resolution Independence" is.

Peace
Oct 4, 2007, 11:06 AM
... you're claiming your Windows machine was capable of Resolution Independence?

-___________-


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_independence

"Although not related to true resolution independence, some other operating systems use GUIs that are able to adapt to changed font sizes. Microsoft Windows 95 onwards used the Marlett TrueType font in order to scale some window controls (close, maximize, minimize, resize handles) to arbitrary sizes. The Windows Presentation Foundation from Microsoft, and consequently, WPF applications, are also designed to be resolution-independent, which means that Windows Vista also supports resolution independence."

Simmerl
Oct 4, 2007, 11:10 AM
With RI you're basically capable of scaling the whole interface.
I think currently everything is at 72 dpi (pixels per inch on the screen).

If you were to set the dpi to 144 for example, you'd keep your 1920x resolution and its crispness while simultaneously doubling the size of all interface elements.

Simmerl
Oct 4, 2007, 11:11 AM
Microsoft Windows 95 onwards used the Marlett TrueType font in order to scale some window controls (close, maximize, minimize, resize handles) to arbitrary sizes.

o_O

I wasn't aware of that.

HLdan
Oct 4, 2007, 11:54 AM
As for dashboard, I rarely use it and would love to be able to stick a few widgets on my desktop so they're always available. I'm not sure why Apple doesn't allow that.



You can get desktop widgets free from Yahoo widgets. Dashboard makes keeping the desktop clear of clutter for me. I use the widgets everyday for my work but I just don't want them cluttering up the desktop all day especially when some of them are just useless to look at all day. How often do you need the weather widget stuck in your face or the sports scores and even stickies?
But if you need desktop widgets get them from Yahoo. You don't have to use everything Apple offers from the OS, you're not forced to use your Mac that way.

lugesm
Oct 4, 2007, 01:23 PM
OK . . . I think I am catching on.

So, did Apple originally promise "Resolution Independence" in the Leopard OS ??? :mad:

stefanski
Oct 4, 2007, 04:53 PM
Not sure if it was posted before, but RAW import works just fine in Leopard now with the Canon 40D. iPhoto and Aperture have no problems handling the 40D so there's some good news... :D

Eric Lewis
Jul 4, 2008, 04:37 PM
Mac OS X 10.5 Free Cat?

http://www.andreaharner.com/archives/pet.jpg

thats so sad!!!!

Sky Blue
Jul 4, 2008, 04:40 PM
thats so sad!!!!

wow, great bump :rolleyes: