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MacRumors
Oct 9, 2007, 11:17 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

AppleInsider looks (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/10/08/road_to_mac_os_x_leopard_finder_10_5.html) at the upcoming Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard Finder and also provides some historical perspective. Overall the Leopard Finder is described as "a clean refinement of what we already have in Tiger" with a number of subtle and useful updates.


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2007/10/09/leopard-finder-071008-9_300.jpg


Meanwhile, Leopard's Cover Flow is described as "more useful than one might imagine" since Leopard will now generate a live preview icon of the actual contents of any file.
If you're looking through a directory of images, Cover Flow makes a lot of sense. However, it's also useful for scanning through a huge pile of HTML files with unintelligible names; Cover Flow very rapidly renders each page so you can visually peruse the directory contents looking for the page you need.

Other features described include Quick Look, Spotlight Search, and Finder window.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/09/mac-os-x-10-5-leopard-finder/)



Liamf555
Oct 9, 2007, 11:21 AM
Looks good :)

triskadecaepyon
Oct 9, 2007, 11:22 AM
Can't wait for leopard! Features just look too enticing.

cecemf
Oct 9, 2007, 11:23 AM
I just called the Apple Store as i wanted to know if i buy an iMac now would i have to pay for Leopard later or get a discount !!!

He basically told me to wait few day's and that to email him after so he can put my order in priority with Leopard !!!!!

So exiting !!! :D:apple:

capoeirista
Oct 9, 2007, 11:24 AM
Yeah it does look good. But bring it out already! Come on Apple!

Eidorian
Oct 9, 2007, 11:25 AM
I want some more Spotlight power.

I want to query a set of folders to see what files don't already have Spotlight comments.

If you can do this in Tiger, please show me. :D

I want Quick Look so I can save a little time by not having to fire up Preview. Not that Preview is a slouch.

Sandfleaz
Oct 9, 2007, 11:25 AM
If you're as unorganized as me, this will be a great feature!
.

GekkePrutser
Oct 9, 2007, 11:29 AM
No more pretty screenshots please! I want the real thing already! ;)

Doctor Q
Oct 9, 2007, 11:42 AM
It must take quite a bit of processing to render every html file in a folder. I wonder how old a Mac you can use and how big a folder you can view without a noticeable lag?

mozmac
Oct 9, 2007, 11:43 AM
I need to use it for a while before giving my impression, because as it stands right now, the Tiger Finder is highly underserving. It lacks so many features that have been mainstays in the Windows Explorer for years. When I had to get a Windows laptop for work, I was amazed at what I could accomplish inside the Explorer.

Eidorian
Oct 9, 2007, 11:44 AM
It must take quite a bit of processing to render every html file in a folder. I wonder how old a Mac you can use and how big a folder you can view without a noticeable lag?There's a chance that there will be a hidden cache.

We all love Thumb.db (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumbs.db), right?

xUKHCx
Oct 9, 2007, 11:45 AM
I want some more Spotlight power.

I want to query a set of folders to see what files don't already have Spotlight comments.

If you can do this in Tiger, please show me. :D
.

You could do it if you bust out the applescript

There's a chance that there will be a hidden cache.

We all love Thumb.db (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumbs.db), right?

just like we all love ds_store

CJD2112
Oct 9, 2007, 11:47 AM
Never mind. They're PDF's. I thought Finder was showing image contents of folders. Oh well.

Eidorian
Oct 9, 2007, 11:51 AM
You could do it if you bust out the applescriptBack to Automater and AppleScript it is. Oy!

If you have any experience I'd appreciate some help.

just like we all love ds_storeQuite true.

crossifixio
Oct 9, 2007, 11:53 AM
I want more news on leopard. When is it going GM? its already the 9th of october it must be soon. I cant wait any longer, i think i need to take a deep breath :D :apple:

xUKHCx
Oct 9, 2007, 11:55 AM
Back to Automater and AppleScript it is. Oy!

If you have any experience I'd appreciate some help.

Quite true.

I''ll give you some help but i'm currently crippled with learning dvorak that typing is a pain. Give me a couple of days or start a new thread I'm sure other are better at applescript than me.

Eidorian
Oct 9, 2007, 11:57 AM
I''ll give you some help but i'm currently crippled with learning dvorak that typing is a pain. Give me a couple of days or start a new thread I'm sure other are better at applescript than me.I'll start another thread in Mac Programming. I tried about two years ago with no luck.

samh004
Oct 9, 2007, 12:06 PM
I saw this article over the weekend while I was getting increasingly frustrated with no new news, things sound promising and although I have already had a little play, I can't wait to have the real thing in my hands and finally just be content with having it.

howiethemacguy
Oct 9, 2007, 12:10 PM
One of my biggest annoyances with Finder has been with mounted network drives. I would be at home or at a client's site and I would have a shared volume mounted on my desktop from another machine on the network. After my work was done, I would forget all about that mounted volume and simply close my laptop and move on. The next time I opened my MacBook, the Finder stalls and I can't do anything until Finder lets go of the mounted volume. This problem is absent in Leopard Finder. I tried it out yesterday myself :p

notjustjay
Oct 9, 2007, 12:12 PM
What's that screenshot of iTunes doing in a story about the new Finder? :D ;)

Eidorian
Oct 9, 2007, 12:23 PM
What's that screenshot of iTunes doing in a story about the new Finder? :D ;)Cover Flow in Finder.

besson3c
Oct 9, 2007, 12:24 PM
It must take quite a bit of processing to render every html file in a folder. I wonder how old a Mac you can use and how big a folder you can view without a noticeable lag?

This feature is also pretty useless to any modern website that is driven off of a middleware language or database/CMS. Static HTML pages are quickly becoming a thing of the past.

BornAgainMac
Oct 9, 2007, 12:26 PM
Ship it already!

CJD2112
Oct 9, 2007, 12:29 PM
I have to say though that every time I use coverflow in Leopard I find myself wanting to swipe my finger across my display lol.

nagromme
Oct 9, 2007, 12:29 PM
If I've heard correctly, Leopard has two of the three things I've most wanted forever:

1. Spring-loading (spacebar) on Dock folders.

2. Sorting Column view by name OR date.


I don't know whether it has the third feature:

3. Updating date-sorted lists instantly, always, BEFORE you click on Finder, so that things don't re-shuffle away from you when you try to click from another app :o

This feature is also pretty useless to any modern website that is driven off of a middleware language or database/CMS. Static HTML pages are quickly becoming a thing of the past.

Not when it comes to the HTML documents most people browse on their machine: web pages, HTML manuals, etc. that they have saved for later reference. This rendering of pages live is not meant as a web-developer's tool (though it does no harm to web developers) but will be very useful to the rest of the world.

Clive At Five
Oct 9, 2007, 12:29 PM
We all love Thumb.db (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumbs.db), right?

just like we all love ds_store

...and love how they clutter up our folders cross-platform. :mad:

:p

-Clive

Eidorian
Oct 9, 2007, 12:31 PM
...and love how they clutter up our folders cross-platform. :mad:

:p

-Clive*eye twitches*

CJD2112
Oct 9, 2007, 12:31 PM
...and love how they clutter up our folders cross-platform. :mad:

:p

-Clive

LOL you beat me to it. Years ago when I inserted a Windows CD into my Mac I was like "what they heck are all these thumbnail.dl files?"

n-abounds
Oct 9, 2007, 12:50 PM
Did they get rid of that thing where, if you're in the middle of a list of files in Finder, open one then go back, you're automatically put back at the TOP of the list rather than where you were before?

Or is this one of those "features" that people who stumble too close to the RDF love?

yellow
Oct 9, 2007, 12:56 PM
Refinement?

We need a rewrite.

:rolleyes:

notjustjay
Oct 9, 2007, 12:58 PM
Cover Flow in Finder.

Yeah, I made that post in jest to point out the striking similarity between the Finder and iTunes.

Of course, we see it this way because we were able to see the slow transformation of the Finder, but I was thinking about how this will be for people new to the Mac after Leopard is released. For those who are familiar with iTunes, there is nothing to learn -- they'll already know how to operate it. For those who are new to everything, they'll see the Finder interface first, and see that iTunes is the same. Apple appears to be trying to create one homogenous interface system.

It helps that a lot of other programs have adopted the "iTunes style" interface as well.

mdriftmeyer
Oct 9, 2007, 01:05 PM
This feature is also pretty useless to any modern website that is driven off of a middleware language or database/CMS. Static HTML pages are quickly becoming a thing of the past.

Translating XML-> XSL/XSLT -> XHTML/HTML/WAP,etc where the entities draw upon database pools is one matter and being raw ASCII is not that big of a hit, but large BINARY BLOBS that via database pools is a huge hit and having Apache 2 precaching and storing them in compressed form is not only important but when it comes to scalability, essential. And since most CMS systems rely on fairly static Headers/Footers [i.e., Reusable components] you would want to cache those as well. It's only the dynamic tags that will be touched so even today's Dynamic websites rely heavily on static content.

WebObjects was designed with such in mind and so is Cocoon 2, Microsoft ASP.NET, Ruby Rails, PHP, etc.

twoodcc
Oct 9, 2007, 01:23 PM
awesome! now bring it on! :cool: :apple:

Snowy_River
Oct 9, 2007, 01:28 PM
I need to use it for a while before giving my impression, because as it stands right now, the Tiger Finder is highly underserving. It lacks so many features that have been mainstays in the Windows Explorer for years. When I had to get a Windows laptop for work, I was amazed at what I could accomplish inside the Explorer.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I find that the Windows Explorer is missing a number of features that have been standard in the Mac OS Finder for years. I use Windows every day at work, and use Mac OS every day at home. I prefer the Finder hands down. And, I am really looking forward to the new features of Leopard.

Eidorian
Oct 9, 2007, 01:32 PM
I need to use it for a while before giving my impression, because as it stands right now, the Tiger Finder is highly underserving. It lacks so many features that have been mainstays in the Windows Explorer for years. When I had to get a Windows laptop for work, I was amazed at what I could accomplish inside the Explorer.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I find that the Windows Explorer is missing a number of features that have been standard in the Mac OS Finder for years. I use Windows every day at work, and use Mac OS every day at home. I prefer the Finder hands down. And, I am really looking forward to the new features of Leopard.Once again, examples of features and situations would really help.

Orng
Oct 9, 2007, 01:37 PM
I have no idea what you're talking about. I find that the Windows Explorer is missing a number of features that have been standard in the Mac OS Finder for years. I use Windows every day at work, and use Mac OS every day at home. I prefer the Finder hands down. And, I am really looking forward to the new features of Leopard.

I have to agree with Mozmac, it's always been a source of frustration for me that finder doesn't have quick preview short of opening the files up in Preview or iPhoto. For the past year at least,anytime somebody gives me a CD of imges that I need to review quickly, I've opened it on a PC.

Coverflow in finder is hopefully exactly the medicine to cure the fanboy tick caused by this glaring shortcoming.

Detektiv-Pinky
Oct 9, 2007, 01:37 PM
Yeah, I made that post in jest to point out the striking similarity between the Finder and iTunes.

Of course, we see it this way because we were able to see the slow transformation of the Finder, but I was thinking about how this will be for people new to the Mac after Leopard is released. For those who are familiar with iTunes, there is nothing to learn -- they'll already know how to operate it. For those who are new to everything, they'll see the Finder interface first, and see that iTunes is the same. Apple appears to be trying to create one homogenous interface system.

It helps that a lot of other programs have adopted the "iTunes style" interface as well.

Does Finder now open the files when hitting RETURN or is it still trying to rename it?

I would like to be able to sort all my folders together and not have them mixed with files - just makes it harder to navigate deep file hierarchies.

xUKHCx
Oct 9, 2007, 01:42 PM
Does Finder now open the files when hitting RETURN or is it still trying to rename it?

if you want to open the files us command + down

Peace
Oct 9, 2007, 01:44 PM
Does Finder now open the files when hitting RETURN or is it still trying to rename it?

I would like to be able to sort all my folders together and not have them mixed with files - just makes it harder to navigate deep file hierarchies.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.You want a bunch of folders without files in them ?

Folders do contain files.

Orng
Oct 9, 2007, 02:04 PM
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.You want a bunch of folders without files in them ?

Folders do contain files.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Detektiv-Pinky wants the folders organized to the top of the list, like in Windows Explorer.

I want that too, so I guess that's TWO features now from Win that I'd like to see in Finder. (so you don't have to scroll up, the other was fast image preview, remedied (hopefully) by coverflow)

abrooks
Oct 9, 2007, 02:06 PM
if you want to open the files us command + down

Or Command+O

Peace
Oct 9, 2007, 02:10 PM
All one has to do is click on "kind" and the finder will indeed list folders first.

[edit] I see what he's talking about now.DO'H...hmm..it's never bothered me using coverflow. {/edit]

Orng
Oct 9, 2007, 02:21 PM
All one has to do is click on "kind" and the finder will indeed list folders first.


Not in Column view it won't! :(

irun5k
Oct 9, 2007, 02:27 PM
...and love how they clutter up our folders cross-platform. :mad:
-Clive

The DS_Store issue is really a problem. I had to stop using my Mac at work because it was littering up our network shares with DS_Store files. We really didn't have a policy on using personal machines at work and nobody cared so long as you didn't goof anything up.

However, dropping little spam crumbs in every directory wasn't a real transparent way to use my Mac at work. I really wish they'd at least turn this off by default for network shares.

EDIT: looks like you can just do this:
defaults write com.apple.desktopservices DSDontWriteNetworkStores true

Snowy_River
Oct 9, 2007, 02:37 PM
I have to agree with Mozmac, it's always been a source of frustration for me that finder doesn't have quick preview short of opening the files up in Preview or iPhoto. For the past year at least,anytime somebody gives me a CD of imges that I need to review quickly, I've opened it on a PC.

Coverflow in finder is hopefully exactly the medicine to cure the fanboy tick caused by this glaring shortcoming.

So "Show icon preview" isn't good enough for you? If you want a better preview than that, what's wrong with the column view for getting a larger preview of an individual file?

Does Finder now open the files when hitting RETURN or is it still trying to rename it?


Please, no! Personally, I hate that about Windows.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Detektiv-Pinky wants the folders organized to the top of the list, like in Windows Explorer.

I want that too, so I guess that's TWO features now from Win that I'd like to see in Finder. (so you don't have to scroll up, the other was fast image preview, remedied (hopefully) by coverflow)

While I'll admit that you can't group folders together in column view (i.e. sort by something other than name), I personally have a strong dislike of Windows absolute distinction between folders and files. If I want an entire directory sorted by name, then I'd like to have, for example, Home.html and Home_Images right next to each other. Sure, there are times when it's nice to have folders grouped, and Mac OS does have options for that. Windows can't say the reverse, at least in my experience. I'll quite happily second the call for other sorting options in column view. I'll even go so far as to suggest an option for keeping folders distinct from files in all sorting methods, but only as an option. It's not something that should be forced on people, especially people who have been working with the system as it is and don't want to emulate Windows (like me!).

As for a feature the Mac OS has that Windows doesn't... how about folder sizes? Is it so much to ask to be able to see how large a folder is? Sure, I can get that information by getting properties on the folder, but why can't it just display it? Why won't it let me sort a bunch of folders by size? This is something that absolutely drives me nuts! Mac OS has had this since System 7, if not before.

Doctor Q
Oct 9, 2007, 02:40 PM
looks like you can just do this:
defaults write com.apple.desktopservices DSDontWriteNetworkStores trueIf you do that, what happens when you arrange files in a Finder window? Do they stay that way as long as the window is open? I often go to a server, arrange files just so I can see what's there, copy files in or out, and want to leave without leaving a "Mac" trace of my visit, so maybe that's what I need.

Consultant
Oct 9, 2007, 02:41 PM
Does Finder now open the files when hitting RETURN or is it still trying to rename it?

I would like to be able to sort all my folders together and not have them mixed with files - just makes it harder to navigate deep file hierarchies.

In Finder, go to list view, (Apple-2), and click "KIND"

Consultant
Oct 9, 2007, 02:41 PM
I have to agree with Mozmac, it's always been a source of frustration for me that finder doesn't have quick preview short of opening the files up in Preview or iPhoto. For the past year at least,anytime somebody gives me a CD of imges that I need to review quickly, I've opened it on a PC.

Coverflow in finder is hopefully exactly the medicine to cure the fanboy tick caused by this glaring shortcoming.


Press Apple and 3 in finder gets you to the Column view. It allows you to preview the photo and some files. Column view has been available since year 2001, if not earlier.

OSX has Preview selected images as slide show. Not sure when it's introduced. Ctrl click (for the windoze trolls, it's right click) on selected images and choose: "Slideshow"

Jim Campbell
Oct 9, 2007, 02:45 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Detektiv-Pinky wants the folders organized to the top of the list, like in Windows Explorer.


Noooooo! Absolutely not! If I sort my view alphabetically, I want it properly alphabetized ...

Grrr.

Jim

Peace
Oct 9, 2007, 02:47 PM
I think what a lot of people are wanting is an explorer type finder.Thats just not going to happen.OSX is Unix not Windows.I'd rather open a Finder window and see a list of what's in a folder than open explorer and see a bunch of garbage with a few hidden trackers,trojans and viruses..
;)

morespce54
Oct 9, 2007, 02:49 PM
...As for a feature the Mac OS has that Windows doesn't... how about folder sizes? Is it so much to ask to be able to see how large a folder is? Sure, I can get that information by getting properties on the folder, but why can't it just display it? Why won't it let me sort a bunch of folders by size? This is something that absolutely drives me nuts! Mac OS has had this since System 7, if not before.

Agree!!! It's a pain to have to do a Get Info on a folder just to know if the content will fit in one CD (or DVD)... :(

Peace
Oct 9, 2007, 02:51 PM
Agree!!! It's a pain to have to do a Get Info on a folder just to know if the content will fit in one CD (or DVD)... :(

Quicklook tells you the size.

Darkroom
Oct 9, 2007, 03:07 PM
im curious how "fast" the new finder will render my 300MB photoshop images in coverflow... :rolleyes:

Orng
Oct 9, 2007, 03:13 PM
So "Show icon preview" isn't good enough for you?
'Fraid not
If you want a better preview than that, what's wrong with the column view for getting a larger preview of an individual file?
Actually "show icon preview" with the size cranked up to 128x128 is better than the preview column, strictly in terms of being able to make out the tiny details in photos and complex graphics well enough to be able to choose a selection from a disk with 700 graphics on it, or with 700 photos all named MSP493*.jpg. "Better", but not "good enough", no.

Downside is, the icons are now too huge for practical use. I find column view most convenient for jumping around dozens of different files, but I can't make out the details in the preview in anything more complex than basic logos.

Believe me, this is the ONLY thing I will give windows over mac, is the filmstrip view.


I'll quite happily second the call for other sorting options in column view.
The option, that's all I want!



Press Apple and 3 in finder gets you to the Column view. It allows you to preview the photo and some files. Column view has been available since year 2001, if not earlier.

OSX has Preview selected images as slide show. Not sure when it's introduced. Ctrl click (for the windoze trolls, it's right click) on selected images and choose: "Slideshow"

Thanks for the Mac101 lesson, but I've been using Column view as my preferred default since 2001. Although I prefer it for day to day, when I have to review and select from a lot of large graphics, column preview just doesn't cut it, and neither does "Show Icon Preview" and neither does Preview.app.
When I'm not looking at graphics, I'm often digging around complex directories using column view, and that's when I wish the folders were at the top of the list

Anyways, all I was trying to say was that I really really hope Coverflow in Finder fixes this deficiency.

Peace
Oct 9, 2007, 03:16 PM
im curious how "fast" the new finder will render my 300MB photoshop images in coverflow... :rolleyes:

Probably just as fast as it renders a 2 Gig video.Which is almost instantaneous.
;)

nagromme
Oct 9, 2007, 03:19 PM
I find column view most convenient for jumping around dozens of different files, but I can't make out the details in the preview in anything more complex than basic logos.

Sounds like you'll really appreciate Leopard's new Quick Look feature, as well as CoverFlow, which is really just an area on top of a standard List view: you can drag the divider to make the coverflow area or the list area as big as you wish.

I expect I'll use CoverFlow instead of List most of the time (when not in the new date-sorted Column view) but I will resize the CoverFlow area as small as I can (still a bigger view--and showing multiple files--than Column view's preview). Best of both worlds!

EDIT: And I'll enable the path breadcrumbs at the bottom. The old reliable, powerful, customizable List View, framed with a CoverFlow multi-file preview on the top and Columns-style path access at the bottom (all with QuickLook and Spring Loading a spacebar-tap away) sounds like a VERY powerful and efficient workspace! And for simplicity the rest of the time: Column View with my most recent files sorted (finally!) to the top.

nagromme
Oct 9, 2007, 03:20 PM
im curious how "fast" the new finder will render my 300MB photoshop images in coverflow... :rolleyes:

Unless you've disabled Photoshop's thumbnail feature... pretty darned quick I'd guess! Just like OS X has always rendered Photoshop documents in Finder view :)

And a whole LOT quicker than opening the document into an application to remember what it is.

Snowy_River
Oct 9, 2007, 03:29 PM
'Fraid not

Actually "show icon preview" with the size cranked up to 128x128 is better than the preview column, strictly in terms of being able to make out the tiny details in photos and complex graphics well enough to be able to choose a selection from a disk with 700 graphics on it, or with 700 photos all named MSP493*.jpg. "Better", but not "good enough", no.

Downside is, the icons are now too huge for practical use. I find column view most convenient for jumping around dozens of different files, but I can't make out the details in the preview in anything more complex than basic logos.

Believe me, this is the ONLY thing I will give windows over mac, is the filmstrip view.


The option, that's all I want!

Yes, I'll grant you that the film strip is nice. I don't like the way that it dominates the view, though (only one row of icons below?). In any event, it looks like cover flow for Finder will answer that request.

As to options, sure, I'm all for options, at least most of the time. I imagine that you'd be happy even if it were only an option that was available through a 3rd party app like TinkerTools, right? It would keep with Apple's tendency to avoid cluttering the view for "the rest of us" (i.e. people like my parents), you know?

SiliconAddict
Oct 9, 2007, 03:31 PM
I still wish Apple would have a command line and auto fill option in finder. I can run rings around finder in terms of navigation with that command line. How many clicks to get to the location? 0. Usually just 3 tabs. The command line in the file browser is the single best feature in Windows IFAIC.

http://att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=87019&stc=1&d=1191961862

nagromme
Oct 9, 2007, 03:49 PM
I still wish Apple would have a command line and auto fill option in finder. I can run rings around finder in terms of navigation with that command line. How many clicks to get to the location? 0. Usually just 3 tabs. The command line in the file browser is the single best feature in Windows IFAIC.

Macs don't have something that works that exact way, which does have its merits if you're used to it--but they do (even pre-Leopard) have four OTHER ways (not counting the literal command line in Terminal) to get around by typing paths, with zero mouse clicks. One of them has limited auto-complete and the other three have very advanced auto-complete. They allow you to type just part of a directory name and then hit a key to accept or cycle through suggested (live) matches, and get around fast with no mousing:

1. "Go" > "to Folder" (Command-Shift-G) pops up a command line at the top of the Finder window, with the current path pre-entered and selected for editing (with auto-complete but no dropdown of other suggestions).

2. Spotlight (Command-Space) pops up a line where you can type just part of a folder name (not even knowing where it is--even more advanced than mere auto-complete) and get there with another keystroke or two. (Works for anything of course, not just folders, but you can choose to have folders listed first instead of apps. In which case, after typing your search you can simply hit Command-Return to open the top matching folder, or down-arrow to go to other matching folders.)

3. You can just type with a Finder window open--no text field needed--and navigate like an "invisble" command line--with auto-complete. In any view. Just start typing, and matching files and folders will be selected. Command-O or Command-Down to open one (taking the place of typing a slash, essentially) and then keep typing the path from there. If you don't like the first auto-match, tab and shift-tab will cycle through other files in order.

4. The Finder's built-in spotlight search is there in the Finder title bar, ready to do a more targeted form of search just in the current directory--making it better for drilling-down than the system-wide Spotlight. (Plus it can filter your matches in many ways--although that normally is done by mouse, not keys alone.)

I zip around the Finder mouse-free at light speed with option 3, myself.

Meanwhile, speaking of literal command lines (DOS, UNIX), you can drag and drop from the Mac's GUI filesystem into a command line, and the path is automatically entered. Not so with Windows. In fact, (at least on my XP system here), I can't even PASTE into the command line.

(EDIT: I guess Go To Folder does have some limited auto-complete--I was going too fast to notice. Snowy_River beat me to it! :D )

mihiruthere93
Oct 9, 2007, 03:49 PM
hopefully its alot faster than the ones out right now :D

Snowy_River
Oct 9, 2007, 03:53 PM
I still wish Apple would have a command line and auto fill option in finder. I can run rings around finder in terms of navigation with that command line. How many clicks to get to the location? 0. Usually just 3 tabs. The command line in the file browser is the single best feature in Windows IFAIC.

http://att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=87019&stc=1&d=1191961862

I bet you that I can keep pace with you using keyboard navigation. For example, I keep my TV show downloads in my Movie folder (rather than letting iTunes hang on to them - it just makes it easier to move files on and off my computer). I frequently go in there to move things around, etc. All I do is type Cmd-N (gives me a new window open to my home folder), 'M' then Cmd-Down Arrow (highlights the Movie folder then enters into it), then the first letter or few letters of the name of the show that I want to access followed by Cmd-Down Arrow.

Now, if that doesn't work for you, you can also use the Goto command, which does auto fill. I can type Cmd-Shift-G, then start typing the path that I want. Just like the command line in Windows, it will fill in and tab will complete. (Now, I'll grant that it's not lightning fast, as one might like, but it is there!)

Nagromme beat me to it!

scokim
Oct 9, 2007, 03:57 PM
Or use Quicksilver.

nagromme
Oct 9, 2007, 04:08 PM
I have to say though that every time I use coverflow in Leopard I find myself wanting to swipe my finger across my display lol.

Swipe your finger sideways on the Mac mouse's scroll ball. It's not multi-touch but it's a workable second-best :) (I'd like the option to reverse the scrollball direction for CoverFlow though.)

!° V °!
Oct 9, 2007, 04:11 PM
Imagine the day when there will be an OS that will render your thoughts on screen. :D

Peace
Oct 9, 2007, 04:12 PM
Swipe your finger sideways on the Mac mouse's scroll ball. It's not multi-touch but it's a workable second-best :) (I'd like the option to reverse the scrollball direction for CoverFlow though.)

you can scroll left or right with the scrollball in coverflow view.

psychofreak
Oct 9, 2007, 04:13 PM
Or use Quicksilver.

I use QS, but I use the Finder to connect to other computers...

nagromme
Oct 9, 2007, 04:15 PM
you can scroll left or right with the scrollball in coverflow view.

Yeah, I mean I wish you could reverse it so the finger motion was in the same direction as on the iPhone (which is the opposite direction of using a Mac scrollbar--just like when you flick an iPhone list up to scroll down--which makes sense for touch).

In other words, I'd like the scrollball to feel like I'm moving the covers themselves, not moving the CoverFlow scrollbar (one goes left while the other goes right).

ortuno2k
Oct 9, 2007, 04:31 PM
Announce and release the damn OS already, damn it!
Can't wait... :)

interlard
Oct 9, 2007, 04:42 PM
I don't think this is good. The new Finder looks too much like iTunes.

At this rate, all apps will eventually look like iTunes and you're going to find it really difficult to differentiate between them

nagromme
Oct 9, 2007, 04:59 PM
I don't think this is good. The new Finder looks too much like iTunes.

At this rate, all apps will eventually look like iTunes and you're going to find it really difficult to differentiate between them

Certain apps with similar functions (browsing and using files--which iTunes, Finder and Mail all do) are meant to work alike--and look alike--for ease of use. You can still tell them apart by their entirely different toolbars and Dock icons, among other things.

I do like variety (I never minded GarageBand's wood look for instance, and I can see why widgets should all be different colors) but when things work the same, having them look similar makes some sense.

archer75
Oct 9, 2007, 05:12 PM
I'm not a fan of the new finder. Maybe that will change once I have a chance to play with it. But so far cover flow in itunes has been nothing more than a gimick.

I still think Pathfinder is a better choice.

I do hope the new finder has thumbnail previews of video files.

psychofreak
Oct 9, 2007, 05:14 PM
Along with Stacks, Quicklook seems like a feature that will really change my computing experience greatly :)

acslater017
Oct 9, 2007, 05:44 PM
Does Finder now open the files when hitting RETURN or is it still trying to rename it?

I would like to be able to sort all my folders together and not have them mixed with files - just makes it harder to navigate deep file hierarchies.

from what i understand, it still does rename the file; however, in Leopard it only selects the name and does not attempt to change the file extension. a smart tweak.

bigwig
Oct 9, 2007, 06:00 PM
just like we all love ds_store
I'll be happy if they finally get rid of that misfeature, but I'm not holding my breath. The thing is I've read stuff by Apple engineers acknowledging .DS_Store is broken, but they still don't get rid of it.

nagromme
Oct 9, 2007, 06:54 PM
I hadn't heard about ds_store. What's broken?

Peace
Oct 9, 2007, 06:55 PM
I hadn't heard about ds_store. What's broken?

The name obviously!! it has an underscore in it.:p

Snowy_River
Oct 9, 2007, 08:19 PM
Along with Stacks, Quicklook seems like a feature that will really change my computing experience greatly :)

You know, it just occurred to me, Quicklook is activated by the space bar, right? Well, what if I'm trying to use keyboard navigation and I start to type the name of a file that is "Letter to Grandma". If it's in a list of files that include "Letter to Abe", "Letter to Frank" and "Letter to Tom", then I'd need to type "Letter to G" before the right file would be selected with keyboard navigation. But that would mean that I'd have hit the spacebar twice. Wouldn't that invoke Quicklook on that note to Abe? Or do you have to do something more to invoke Quicklook, like, maybe, holding down the spacebar?

I'm looking forward to Quicklook, but if it breaks keyboard navigation, I'm going to be REALLY pissed....

nagromme
Oct 9, 2007, 08:42 PM
You know, it just occurred to me, Quicklook is activated by the space bar, right? Well, what if I'm trying to use keyboard navigation and I start to type the name of a file that is "Letter to Grandma". If it's in a list of files that include "Letter to Abe", "Letter to Frank" and "Letter to Tom", then I'd need to type "Letter to G" before the right file would be selected with keyboard navigation. But that would mean that I'd have hit the spacebar twice. Wouldn't that invoke Quicklook on that note to Abe? Or do you have to do something more to invoke Quicklook, like, maybe, holding down the spacebar?

I'm looking forward to Quicklook, but if it breaks keyboard navigation, I'm going to be REALLY pissed....

I wouldn't worry abouy keyboard navigation being broken. Apple's good about those usability details. My guess: when you start typing a name, the QuickLook spacebar is ignored, only to return after you've stopped typing for a short time.

jhsfosho
Oct 10, 2007, 12:09 AM
Looks nice! I can't wait now. Hopefully there will be an announcement later today (Wednesday)

Cloudsurfer
Oct 10, 2007, 03:11 AM
The new Finder is my sole reason for upgrading to Leopard. I got to use it in the 9a466 build, and I absolutely loved it.

But, eh.. what's wrong with the Finder icon? I always thought it has that nostalgic thing to it.

sunfast
Oct 10, 2007, 03:40 AM
Glad to hear that coverflow/quicklook is useful. Was worried it would be a bit of a gimmick but it's starting to make some sense :)

doemel
Oct 10, 2007, 05:09 AM
BTW, where's the I-want-pre-OSX-Finder-back fraction? Did they finally die out?

As for Leopard, I wonder, if the October release date is still vaild, how they intend to keep that. A GM doesn't translate into a readily shipped product over night.

sunfast
Oct 10, 2007, 05:12 AM
BTW, where's the I-want-pre-OSX-Finder-back fraction? Did they finally die out?

Let's hope so! Got so bored of reading that

tallscot
Oct 10, 2007, 08:40 AM
Can I please create a view and options of a Finder window and then apply those settings to all folder? This is a very basic feature missing.

Can you please tell me the size of the file I have selected at the bottom of a Finder window instead of how much space is available on my entire drive? This is just stupid behavior.

Can you please, please, please give me more columns in List view to take advantage of all that meta data? This is, again, just plain stupid. Wouldn't it be great to be able to sort a folder of QuickTime movies based on dimension or codec?

How about giving me the ability to sort Column view the way I want to sort it?

How about giving us smart sorting in Column view where the folders are all first followed by files?

How about a way to apply key words, easily, to files? Huh? How about that?

The Mac Finder is a joke. It really is. It's missing basic features that it should have had years ago and it's incredibly disappointing to see Apple just throw a couple of eye candy features on it and calling it "brand new". No, it's not brand new. It's the same simple, limited file browser we've had for years.

This is where Windows really outshines OS X. The Vista Explorer complete with file dialogs that let you apply star ratings and meta data to files just blows away the stupid Finder. Adding a stupid Quick Look feature (um, why is loading it in Quick Look better than Preview?) and a silly Color Flow (why not just give me thumbnails that do the same thing?) feature is just really, really, really disappointing to me.

MonkeyClaw
Oct 10, 2007, 09:17 AM
Can I please create a view and options of a Finder window and then apply those settings to all folder? This is a very basic feature missing.

Can you please tell me the size of the file I have selected at the bottom of a Finder window instead of how much space is available on my entire drive? This is just stupid behavior.

Can you please, please, please give me more columns in List view to take advantage of all that meta data? This is, again, just plain stupid. Wouldn't it be great to be able to sort a folder of QuickTime movies based on dimension or codec?

How about giving me the ability to sort Column view the way I want to sort it?

How about giving us smart sorting in Column view where the folders are all first followed by files?

How about a way to apply key words, easily, to files? Huh? How about that?

The Mac Finder is a joke. It really is. It's missing basic features that it should have had years ago and it's incredibly disappointing to see Apple just throw a couple of eye candy features on it and calling it "brand new". No, it's not brand new. It's the same simple, limited file browser we've had for years.

This is where Windows really outshines OS X. The Vista Explorer complete with file dialogs that let you apply star ratings and meta data to files just blows away the stupid Finder. Adding a stupid Quick Look feature (um, why is loading it in Quick Look better than Preview?) and a silly Color Flow (why not just give me thumbnails that do the same thing?) feature is just really, really, really disappointing to me.

Yea I was gonna reply to this but that last paragraph really spelled it out that you have no idea what you are talking about and are probably just trolling so yea. If you are a serious person who actually uses OS X and took the time to learn how to use it, you would probably understand how to do the things you are complaining about.

MacBoobsPro
Oct 10, 2007, 09:38 AM
Can I please create a view and options of a Finder window and then apply those settings to all folder? This is a very basic feature missing.

Command + J when in finder. Tick box 'All windows'.

Can you please tell me the size of the file I have selected at the bottom of a Finder window instead of how much space is available on my entire drive? This is just stupid behavior.

Command + J when in finder. Click 'show item info' it will give you more than just file sizes under the name of each item. Also file sizes are available in column view and list view.

Can you please, please, please give me more columns in List view to take advantage of all that meta data? This is, again, just plain stupid. Wouldn't it be great to be able to sort a folder of QuickTime movies based on dimension or codec?

Smart Folders?

How about giving me the ability to sort Column view the way I want to sort it?

Have you tried holding down Command and dragging a column? ;)

How about giving us smart sorting in Column view where the folders are all first followed by files?

Not sure if that is possible (probably is) as Ive never tried it nor can I see any benefit from it. However I am not denying it may be useful to some.

How about a way to apply key words, easily, to files? Huh? How about that?

'Get info'. Fill in spotlight comments.

The Mac Finder is a joke. It really is. It's missing basic features that it should have had years ago and it's incredibly disappointing to see Apple just throw a couple of eye candy features on it and calling it "brand new". No, it's not brand new. It's the same simple, limited file browser we've had for years.

I've never had a problem with it and don't see what all the fuss is about. However a more iTunes like finder is more user friendly and efficient. It is new because... well... its new (for the finder).

This is where Windows really outshines OS X. The Vista Explorer complete with file dialogs that let you apply star ratings and meta data to files just blows away the stupid Finder. Adding a stupid Quick Look feature (um, why is loading it in Quick Look better than Preview?) and a silly Color Flow (why not just give me thumbnails that do the same thing?) feature is just really, really, really disappointing to me.

A rating feature would be a nice addition I agree but that doesnt make or break an OS. Quicklook loads almost instantly where as Preview is a standalone application that requires opening and closing. Quicklook is built right into the Finder.

Coverflow is very good because you can literally read documents etc without opening them. If thumbnails were used you would not get enough information from a tiny thumbnail (which are already part of Tiger).

If you actually spent time using OSX instead of whining about it you can see it can do pretty much everything you have asked of it.

notjustjay
Oct 10, 2007, 11:12 AM
How about giving us smart sorting in Column view where the folders are all first followed by files?

I want this too. This has been mentioned a few times in this thread, and I asked about it a few years ago too. There are always several people who say "Yeah, me too!" and then someone always chimes in with "why on earth would you want THAT? That's stupid!" Well, let's step out of the RDF for a moment and acknowledge that some people want this feature. I, for one, like to be able to see at a glance what sub-folders branch off from the existing folder, without having to scroll through the entire list if there are a lot of files mixed in with the folders.

It should at least be an option (and it is not, as far as I can tell).

Snowy_River
Oct 10, 2007, 12:47 PM
I want this too. This has been mentioned a few times in this thread, and I asked about it a few years ago too. There are always several people who say "Yeah, me too!" and then someone always chimes in with "why on earth would you want THAT? That's stupid!" Well, let's step out of the RDF for a moment and acknowledge that some people want this feature. I, for one, like to be able to see at a glance what sub-folders branch off from the existing folder, without having to scroll through the entire list if there are a lot of files mixed in with the folders.

It should at least be an option (and it is not, as far as I can tell).

While I certainly support the idea of having this as an option, and I don't agree with people who think the idea of this is stupid. I do have a problem with people who characterize the lack of this feature as be something that is a fundamental flaw in the Finder. Sure, you might like to have this feature, and I'll support your desire to have it so long as it is only an option and not a feature that is forced on me if I don't want it, but the Finder is quite capable even without this, and there are a lot of people who would actually dislike using this "feature". So, it isn't a definitive feature of good file navigator.

tallscot
Oct 10, 2007, 12:57 PM
Command + J when in finder. Tick box 'All windows'.

This doesn't set the view of all folders in Tiger. Has this behavior changed in Leopard?

What this does in Tiger is set the view of all folders that are manually set to "All windows". Have you used Tiger?

Command + J when in finder. Click 'show item info' it will give you more than just file sizes under the name of each item. Also file sizes are available in column view and list view.

Nope. I want the file size of the file I have selected in every single view versus the amount of space I have left on the hard drive in every single view.

"Show Item Info" is for Icon view, and it's not telling me the file size anyway.

Smart Folders?

Ahhhh, so instead of giving me more columns in List view, you think I should have to manually create a Spotlight search every single time? LOL

Have you tried holding down Command and dragging a column?

Um, huh? I'm in Column View, not List View. How do you sort by size, codec, dimensions, etc.?

'Get info'. Fill in spotlight comments.

Wrong. First off, that's not "Keywords", that's "Comments", which means it's useless to any application that utilizes "Keywords".

Secondly, having to manually click on each file and then type in the comments field is retarded compared to a real key word system, which I'm guessing you have never used, otherwise you wouldn't suggest typing in the Comments field.

For example, just look at what Apple does in Aperture with Keywords. Hell, look at what they do in iPhoto.

Apple is really behind in regards to a metadata-driven file system.

I've never had a problem with it and don't see what all the fuss is about. However a more iTunes like finder is more user friendly and efficient. It is new because... well... its new (for the finder).

Yeah, imagine using iTunes and it doesn't give you the Artist column or the Album column and it requires you to use Spotlight to create a search for the track and album every single time. LOL

iTunes is a lot more powerful than the Finder, and it's a shame.

A rating feature would be a nice addition I agree but that doesnt make or break an OS. Quicklook loads almost instantly where as Preview is a standalone application that requires opening and closing. Quicklook is built right into the Finder.

I see, so even though we have gigs of RAM and 8 cores on our computer, we can't let a small application like Preview running?

On my G5, Preview loads things instantly. This feature is very, very low on the priority list. Here's an idea, how about we just open the files in the applications? What a concept! Applications! Wow.

Coverflow is very good because you can literally read documents etc without opening them. If thumbnails were used you would not get enough information from a tiny thumbnail (which are already part of Tiger).

Coverflow is flawed for the same reason Microsoft's virtual Rolodex (Flip3D) is flawed - you are reviewing them one at a time and having to manually forward/reverse.

It's much faster to look at a folder of 30 PDFs in Icon view with a thumbnail all at once versus paging through them. That's a joke. It's stupid. It's eye candy.

Exposť is superior to Flip3D. Why? Because it shows me the windows all at once versus Flip3D forcing me to manually advance one after the other to find what I want.

Imagine using iPhoto with only Coverflow versus looking at thumbnails.

What I like about Coverflow is that it gives me a preview of stuff Tiger doesn't. But it should do that in Icon View, including QuickTime movies.

If you actually spent time using OSX instead of whining about it you can see it can do pretty much everything you have asked of it

I've used OS X since the public beta. I've been a Mac user since 1987.

tallscot
Oct 10, 2007, 01:00 PM
I want this too. This has been mentioned a few times in this thread, and I asked about it a few years ago too. There are always several people who say "Yeah, me too!" and then someone always chimes in with "why on earth would you want THAT? That's stupid!" Well, let's step out of the RDF for a moment and acknowledge that some people want this feature. I, for one, like to be able to see at a glance what sub-folders branch off from the existing folder, without having to scroll through the entire list if there are a lot of files mixed in with the folders.

It should at least be an option (and it is not, as far as I can tell).

I love it how these Mac zealots instantly assume you are a Windows troll if you dare to criticize Apple or OS X.

Windows has Folders view precisely so you can navigate the hard drive quickly without wading through folders with hundreds of files. Column View works really well for this except that you have to scroll to get to the folders mixed in with the files.

People will make excuses and say it's not needed and then give you a workaround that requires a lot more work than the way we are suggesting, and that's not productive at all.

notjustjay
Oct 10, 2007, 01:51 PM
I do have a problem with people who characterize the lack of this feature as be something that is a fundamental flaw in the Finder. Sure, you might like to have this feature, and I'll support your desire to have it so long as it is only an option and not a feature that is forced on me if I don't want it, but the Finder is quite capable even without this, and there are a lot of people who would actually dislike using this "feature". So, it isn't a definitive feature of good file navigator.

Well, I don't count it as a fundamental flaw other than that I think (any file system viewing tool) ought to offer more choice about how this is displayed. The trick is how to keep everyone happy by allowing enough customized behaviour without confusing the user with a prefs panel that looks like an aircraft cockpit control.

Your standard 'ls' command, for example, has a gazillion combinations of display settings -- though, notably, it too lacks an option to pre-sort and display folders. This suggests to me that Finder is just doing what every other Unix file system does, and I'd go so far as to say that Windows must be the odd one out with its pre-sort behaviour. Still, I've grown to appreciate that behaviour, and it would be nice to have it as a choice. (And yes, that would include the choice to NOT have it in Windows, which apparently is not an option either.)

Snowy_River
Oct 10, 2007, 02:25 PM
I love it how these Mac zealots instantly assume you are a Windows troll if you dare to criticize Apple or OS X.

Windows has Folders view precisely so you can navigate the hard drive quickly without wading through folders with hundreds of files. Column View works really well for this except that you have to scroll to get to the folders mixed in with the files.

People will make excuses and say it's not needed and then give you a workaround that requires a lot more work than the way we are suggesting, and that's not productive at all.

To be fair, the tone of your comments certainly made it seem that you were a Windows troll. Calling the Mac Finder a joke?

While the Windows Explorer may have some features that you like, the fact that the Mac Finder doesn't have these particular features doesn't make it a joke. There are features that the Windows Explorer doesn't have, but I don't consider it to be a joke. Sure, the absence of these features bugs me, even "drives me nuts", but that still doesn't make it a joke.

Personally, I don't like the way Windows sorts folders from the other files. It doesn't mesh well with the way that I work. So, the way that the Mac Finder handles things does much better for me. Does that make me a joke? :rolleyes:

In short, I'd say that it's one thing to criticize the Finder, and it's another to make comments about how "The Mac Finder is a joke. It really is." and "This is where Windows really ... just blows away the stupid Finder." (some liberty taken, but the point is the same). Oh, and the fact that you didn't even get the name of Cover Flow right ("Color Flow"???), it all added up to a pretty easy conclusion that you were a troll.

All of that being said, it appears now that you aren't. However, I will also say that just because you've been using Macs since 1987 doesn't mean that you can't be a Windows zealot who chooses to troll on a Mac board. Maybe you're one of the few who have to use a Mac for work, but prefer Windows?

Anyway, if you don't want to be labeled a troll, I'd suggest trying to use less trollish language when you choose to criticize Apple or the Mac OS. People may even agree with you then... even some of the Mac zealots...

tallscot
Oct 10, 2007, 03:11 PM
Yea I was gonna reply to this but that last paragraph really spelled it out that you have no idea what you are talking about and are probably just trolling so yea. If you are a serious person who actually uses OS X and took the time to learn how to use it, you would probably understand how to do the things you are complaining about.

To be fair, the tone of your comments certainly made it seem that you were a Windows troll. Calling the Mac Finder a joke?

While the Windows Explorer may have some features that you like, the fact that the Mac Finder doesn't have these particular features doesn't make it a joke. There are features that the Windows Explorer doesn't have, but I don't consider it to be a joke. Sure, the absence of these features bugs me, even "drives me nuts", but that still doesn't make it a joke.

Personally, I don't like the way Windows sorts folders from the other files. It doesn't mesh well with the way that I work. So, the way that the Mac Finder handles things does much better for me. Does that make me a joke? :rolleyes:

In short, I'd say that it's one thing to criticize the Finder, and it's another to make comments about how "The Mac Finder is a joke. It really is." and "This is where Windows really ... just blows away the stupid Finder." (some liberty taken, but the point is the same). Oh, and the fact that you didn't even get the name of Cover Flow right ("Color Flow"???), it all added up to a pretty easy conclusion that you were a troll.

All of that being said, it appears now that you aren't. However, I will also say that just because you've been using Macs since 1987 doesn't mean that you can't be a Windows zealot who chooses to troll on a Mac board. Maybe you're one of the few who have to use a Mac for work, but prefer Windows?

Anyway, if you don't want to be labeled a troll, I'd suggest trying to use less trollish language when you choose to criticize Apple or the Mac OS. People may even agree with you then... even some of the Mac zealots...

I suggest that people stop taking their OS so personally and just respond to the points being made.

As a file browser, the Finder is a joke in 2007. That includes the file dialogs too. You people shouldn't take it personally and get so bent out of shape. You should just stick to the points being made and rebut them if they are wrong.

HLdan
Oct 10, 2007, 03:26 PM
I need to use it for a while before giving my impression, because as it stands right now, the Tiger Finder is highly underserving. It lacks so many features that have been mainstays in the Windows Explorer for years. When I had to get a Windows laptop for work, I was amazed at what I could accomplish inside the Explorer.

Like what??? I read this time through time that people hate the Finder (and don't get me wrong, I not defending I just don't understand) but never ever say what their problem is with it. You just said the Finder is missing features that are in Windows Explorer so, which features, what's wrong with the Finder?
What is Leopard's Finder going to do for you that you need?

tallscot
Oct 10, 2007, 03:43 PM
Like what??? I read this time through time that people hate the Finder (and don't get me wrong, I not defending I just don't understand) but never ever say what their problem is with it. You just said the Finder is missing features that are in Windows Explorer so, which features, what's wrong with the Finder?
What is Leopard's Finder going to do for you that you need?

Well, for starters, how about the ability to assign the same exact view to every folder? That's a feature of the 80s, really, that isn't in OS X.

How about having more columns in List View that utilizes all that "amazing" metadata? That's a feature of Windows XP from 2001.

And Apple liked Sort By Group enough to put it in Spotlight results, but why not the Finder? That's another feature of Windows XP 2001.

You want more?

Snowy_River
Oct 10, 2007, 05:41 PM
I suggest that people stop taking their OS so personally and just respond to the points being made.

As a file browser, the Finder is a joke in 2007. That includes the file dialogs too. You people shouldn't take it personally and get so bent out of shape. You should just stick to the points being made and rebut them if they are wrong.

I don't take my OS personally. And I DO disagree with your assertion that the Finder is a joke. I've used many different file browsers (Finder replacements, 3D file browsers, Linux file browsers, Windows file browsers, etc.), and I haven't found anything so compelling as to suggest that the Finder is, in any way, a joke. Sure, some of them have some interesting features that might even be compelling, if they were well implemented (which, in most cases, they weren't).

In fact, a simple comparison would be with the dominant file browser, Windows Explorer. Comparing WE with MF one can see that each has strengths and each has weaknesses compared with the other. However, neither is a joke. Some features exist in one that some people would like to see in the other, while other people couldn't care less. The absence of such a feature doesn't make one file browser or the other a joke, either.

Once again, I don't take my OS personally. And I'm trying hard not to take your insistence on using offensive and demeaning language personally, either.

nate13
Oct 10, 2007, 05:48 PM
im excited to see what it has transformed into. my ADC membership granted me some time with the early builds, but i lost interest (and patience) with every new 6 GB file. all i have to say that in the beginning.... it was slowwwww :)

Snowy_River
Oct 10, 2007, 05:52 PM
Well, for starters, how about the ability to assign the same exact view to every folder? That's a feature of the 80s, really, that isn't in OS X.

You can! It just won't override the folder where you've specified that you want a different view. So what you're really asking for is a means of deleting all custom views. Let's just be clear on that.

How about having more columns in List View that utilizes all that "amazing" metadata? That's a feature of Windows XP from 2001.

And Apple liked Sort By Group enough to put it in Spotlight results, but why not the Finder? That's another feature of Windows XP 2001.

Good points. Might have use in the Finder.

You want more?

I'm happy to hear more, but I'd also like to suggest that the Windows Explorer isn't "all that". Again, as I've said before, both have strengths and weaknesses.

psychofreak
Oct 10, 2007, 06:02 PM
Like what??? I read this time through time that people hate the Finder (and don't get me wrong, I not defending I just don't understand) but never ever say what their problem is with it. You just said the Finder is missing features that are in Windows Explorer so, which features, what's wrong with the Finder?
What is Leopard's Finder going to do for you that you need?

For one thing it will connect to other computers MUCH faster and without the problems of Tiger's Finder...

One thing I'm worried about - My grandad has poor eyesight, but can easily see items in the Finder sidebar. Can these be made very large if there aren't many things there?

HLdan
Oct 10, 2007, 07:27 PM
Well, for starters, how about the ability to assign the same exact view to every folder? That's a feature of the 80s, really, that isn't in OS X.

How about having more columns in List View that utilizes all that "amazing" metadata? That's a feature of Windows XP from 2001.

And Apple liked Sort By Group enough to put it in Spotlight results, but why not the Finder? That's another feature of Windows XP 2001.

You want more?

Sounds fixable by Apple if they see that it's necessary. Thanks for the input. Hopefully your concerns will be addressed, that is if you are a Mac user. At any rate your concerns about the Finder are valid points but comparing how Windows does it better is pointless. We can go down this road all day and Windows will never win.
Why don't you ask Microsoft why Windows has a such a stupid design of a desktop. There's no drag and drop installation like say....Mac OS X does.
Why does Windows after all these years still use that irritating Registry? Why can't Windows' programs contain everything in one Folder like say.......Mac OS X does? By doing this the Mac way there's no ridiculous un-installing required to get rid of most files. And we all know that the Windows Registry can jack up your files.

See, it's fine to point out Mac OS X's issues that you have concerns with but to compare it what Windows does better makes Windows sound superior and that ain't true.

tallscot
Oct 11, 2007, 08:30 AM
Sounds fixable by Apple if they see that it's necessary. Thanks for the input. Hopefully your concerns will be addressed, that is if you are a Mac user. At any rate your concerns about the Finder are valid points but comparing how Windows does it better is pointless. We can go down this road all day and Windows will never win.
Why don't you ask Microsoft why Windows has a such a stupid design of a desktop. There's no drag and drop installation like say....Mac OS X does.
Why does Windows after all these years still use that irritating Registry? Why can't Windows' programs contain everything in one Folder like say.......Mac OS X does? By doing this the Mac way there's no ridiculous un-installing required to get rid of most files. And we all know that the Windows Registry can jack up your files.

See, it's fine to point out Mac OS X's issues that you have concerns with but to compare it what Windows does better makes Windows sound superior and that ain't true.

I'm a big Mac fan, but that's really irrelevant. Again, just stick to the points I raise.

Your assertion that OS X doesn't have "registry" issues is garbage. OS X doesn't have a "Registry", but it has issues with Receipts, Frameworks, Preferences, Application Support files.

Your assertion that all the applications are drag and drop install and are packages is also garbage.

How do you install all Adobe applications? How do you install Apple's own pro applications? You use an installer and it installs files all over the system folders.

Listen, I'm a real Mac user, so you guys can't lie about OS X and get away with it.

I purchased Final Cut Studio 2 and installed it. Motion 3 was sooo slow and buggy, I had to go back to Motion 2. But wait! OS X doesn't have an uninstaller! I put the FCS 2 DVD in and tried to find an uninstaller there. Nope. So how do you uninstall Motion 3? You have to manually hunt for files in several places and delete them manually. Which files? You have to guess. Apple used to have a tech note with a long list of files you had to delete to uninstall Motion 1. That tech note is gone.

What's worse is that the other pro applications rely on the same files, so you can't just run an uninstaller for Motion 3 and leave the rest of Final Cut Studio 2. Nooooooooo. You have to have it all go back to FCS 1. So I thought I had uninstalled Motion 3 and Compressor and Final Cut and Soundtrack Pro and DVD Studio Pro (lame that it's still version 4). I reinstalled FCS 1. I finally got Motion 2 running, except Compressor doesn't work now.

Do you know what the solution for my problem is? It reminds me of Windows users from 1999. The solution is for me to reinstall OS X and then reinstall FCS!

OS X desperately needs a global uninstaller in the OS. Also, OS X desperately needs a snapshot utility built into the OS so you can go back in time in your system folder to a point before you got some software update that hosed your application.

Windows is garbage. There's no debating that. The whole experience is just garbage compared to OS X, but OS X is very far from perfect and there are many things in Windows that I wish OS X had, some things that are very basic features that I can't believe we still don't have.

tallscot
Oct 11, 2007, 08:32 AM
You can! It just won't override the folder where you've specified that you want a different view.

OS X won't let me assign the same view to all folders at once - period. You also can't set a default for when you create a new folder, which requires that I manually set it every single time.

I'm happy to hear more, but I'd also like to suggest that the Windows Explorer isn't "all that". Again, as I've said before, both have strengths and weaknesses.

What would be the strength of the Finder?

tallscot
Oct 11, 2007, 08:34 AM
I don't take my OS personally. And I DO disagree with your assertion that the Finder is a joke. I've used many different file browsers (Finder replacements, 3D file browsers, Linux file browsers, Windows file browsers, etc.), and I haven't found anything so compelling as to suggest that the Finder is, in any way, a joke. Sure, some of them have some interesting features that might even be compelling, if they were well implemented (which, in most cases, they weren't).

In fact, a simple comparison would be with the dominant file browser, Windows Explorer. Comparing WE with MF one can see that each has strengths and each has weaknesses compared with the other. However, neither is a joke. Some features exist in one that some people would like to see in the other, while other people couldn't care less. The absence of such a feature doesn't make one file browser or the other a joke, either.

Once again, I don't take my OS personally. And I'm trying hard not to take your insistence on using offensive and demeaning language personally, either.

Your opinion is different than mine. I get that. You don't think the Finder is a joke. I do. No problem.

I'm curious what features are in the Finder that aren't in Vista, because I think the list of features in Vista's Explorer and file dialogs that aren't in OS X is very, very long.

Question - do you own Vista? I own both.

johngordon
Oct 11, 2007, 09:23 AM
Just noticed this snippet :

'However, it's also useful for scanning through a huge pile of HTML files with unintelligible names; Cover Flow very rapidly renders each page so you can visually peruse the directory contents looking for the page you need.'

As a web designer this sounds hugely useful!

tallscot
Oct 11, 2007, 10:24 AM
I'm happy to hear more

Windows Explorer gives you thumbnails of video files. The Tiger Finder does not. I have a folder of QuickTime backgrounds on my Mac. I have to manually click on each one to see what they look like (Juice Drops). On Windows, you don't have to manually click on each one, it gives you a thumbnail.

Windows Explorer gives you thumbnails of PDF files. The Tiger Finder does not.

Does Leopard do these things in Icon View now? I see Cover Flow does, but I don't want to go one at a time. I'd prefer to see them all at once in Icon View. I think that new feature in iPhoto where you mouse over the icon and you can scrub the stack of photos would be great in the Finder in Icon view, especially on QuickTime movies.

Apple simply needs to apply some of the great features they have in iLife and iTunes to the Finder. If it's a good management feature for a photo or song, it's a good management feature in the Finder.

Windows Explorer gives you the ability to move a file/folder without having to click and drag, which can be tedious when you have to hover over folder, wait for it to open, drag to another folder and hover, wait for it to open, etc. I happen to think Cut and Paste (name it whatever you want, I don't want to argue stupid semantics) works really well. Apple finally gave us Copy, but not Cut. I don't know why.

Windows open/save dialog has more views that are very useful, including Thumbnails and Details with lots of columns to sort. The Finder has List with only Date Modified, and Column view. Are you kidding me? Why not use all that metadata and use tags?

Windows open dialog has fixed preview pane for all views that gives you a large preview of any file you click on. The Finder only has a preview in Column view, and it's small.

Windows open and save dialogs let you edit file names, delete files. The Finder doesn't. This is very useful.

Apple realizes that their open/save dialogs are too limited, so their pro applications come with their own file interface as a tab. While this new interface gives me thumbnails (yea!), it doesn't have the sidebar shortcuts from the Finder (boo!) and has no way for me to create shortcuts in it. So I end up having to manually navigate my hard drive, which is lame. Why can't Apple get this right? Give me thumbnails and also give me the ability to customize the shortcuts. Also, Apple completely ignores metadata and keywords in their file dialogs.

You want more?

Alloye
Oct 11, 2007, 12:08 PM
I'm curious what features are in the Finder that aren't in Vista, because I think the list of features in Vista's Explorer and file dialogs that aren't in OS X is very, very long.

That's because Vista is a typical Microsoft product: Software designed around a feature checklist without regard as to whether or not most people will actually need or want said features.

Before you ask, I was an SDE at Microsoft for five years (four years in the Business Division working on Office; one year in Platform Products working on Vista). In Redmond, new features always trump elegance and refinement. That's how they "win."

As for Vista, I use it every day. It's broken. I don't care how many features it has. It was rushed out the door by wrong thinking management who refused to hear that it wasn't ready. In fact, the entire Vista development cycle was the biggest train wreck in Microsoft's history and perhaps the ultimate embarrassment of a megalomaniacal corporation overflowing with arrogance.

Back on topic, just how much of your computing time do you spend managing files? For me it's less than 1%, and I'm an excessively organized individual who suffers from OCD.

In any case, I've never found Finder lacking for day to day stuff. I admit it's not great for heavy lifting, but that's where Terminal comes in. I also have the same pattern on Windows: Explorer for most tasks. Command Prompt when I need to reorganize a lot of files quickly. (Too bad cmd.exe doesn't hold a candle to bash, but that's another argument.)

As for Leopard, I think most people will be quite happy with the updated Finder. It has a nice, simple UI combined with some great refinements under the hood. It doesn't have to be Path Finder (http://www.cocoatech.com/pf4/) because not everyone needs or wants that kind of complexity.

Doctor Q
Oct 11, 2007, 12:09 PM
I don't know how to make this idea really work, but I think the whole idea of open dialog boxes is wrong. Why simulate a few features of the Finder (or Windows Explorer) in a separate window? It ought to use the real Finder, and let me do anything I want (navigate, open, move, rename, delete, launch, arrange, Exposť, etc.) on the way to identifying the file I want to open. I imagine having a "mode" where you are opening a file for an application, which puts you back in the Finder with an extra feature: the ability to say "THIS file" when you are good and ready.

tallscot
Oct 11, 2007, 12:24 PM
That's because Vista is a typical Microsoft product: Software designed around a feature checklist without regard as to whether or not most people will actually need or want said features.

Before you ask, I was an SDE at Microsoft for five years (four years in the Business Division working on Office; one year in Platform Products working on Vista). In Redmond, new features always trump elegance and refinement. That's how they "win."

As for Vista, I use it every day. It's broken. I don't care how many features it has. It was rushed out the door by wrong thinking management who refused to hear that it wasn't ready. In fact, the entire Vista development cycle was the biggest train wreck in Microsoft's history and perhaps the ultimate embarrassment of a megalomaniacal corporation overflowing with arrogance.

Back on topic, just how much of your computing time do you spend managing files? For me it's less than 1%, and I'm an excessively organized individual who suffers from OCD.

In any case, I've never found Finder lacking for day to day stuff. I admit it's not great for heavy lifting, but that's where Terminal comes in. I also have the same pattern on Windows: Explorer for most tasks. Command Prompt when I need to reorganize a lot of files quickly. (Too bad cmd.exe doesn't hold a candle to bash, but that's another argument.)

As for Leopard, I think most people will be quite happy with the updated Finder. It has a nice, simple UI combined with some great refinements under the hood. It doesn't have to be Path Finder (http://www.cocoatech.com/pf4/) because not everyone needs or wants that kind of complexity.

Yeah, instead of giving me a list of the strong points of the Finder, you tell me that we don't even need the Finder that much and that Vista, overall, is crap. Well, I agree that Vista, overall, is crap. But that's not the point. The point is the Finder is a very weak file management application and we are discussing what would be great additions to the Finder. There are some great, useful features in Vista's Explorer and file dialogs that I wish OS X had.

This is typical Mac zealotry, really. You guys like to say that feature X, Y, Z isn't needed until Apple adds it to their OS, and then the argument changes from "we don't need that" to "Apple did it much better". Yeah, Apple usually does do things in a more efficient, easier-to-use way. Apple is good at doing something that others are already doing but doing it better.

To answer your question, I work in the Finder all the time. I create projects for clients using Photoshop, Illustrator, Motion, After Effects, Flash, GoLive, Director, DVD Studio Pro, Cinema 4D, Soundtrack Pro. I also use Mail, Safari, Firefox on sites that Safari doesn't support, Yummy FTP, Preview, iTunes, PowerPoint, Excel, Word.

Each project I have includes dozens and dozens of files - new files created from scratch and also files that are already on the hard drive in other folders.

Having a metadata-driving file system would be very nice. It would allow me to just add tags to my files as they are created without requiring me to create a folder hierarchy for my projects like Project X: Photoshop, Motion, Backgrounds, 3D, Scripts, Audio...

File management is a big part of using a computer. Because the Finder is so weak, managing my files on OS X is more tedious than it has to be. This is one area of Windows Vista that is better than OS X, in my opinion. And any objective analysis I read on the Net seems to agree with this viewpoint.

But if you think having to manually set your view options for every folder is an easier way of doing things, go right ahead. ;)

A Pittarelli
Oct 11, 2007, 12:26 PM
of all the new leopard features I think I'm most excited about finder sad as of is

tallscot
Oct 11, 2007, 12:29 PM
I don't know how to make this idea really work, but I think the whole idea of open dialog boxes is wrong. Why simulate a few features of the Finder (or Windows Explorer) in a separate window? It ought to use the real Finder, and let me do anything I want (navigate, open, move, rename, delete, launch, arrange, Exposť, etc.) on the way to identifying the file I want to open. I imagine having a "mode" where you are opening a file for an application, which puts you back in the Finder with an extra feature: the ability to say "THIS file" when you are good and ready.

Vista's Explorer is more like what you are describing than OS X. The file dialogs in Vista let you do just about everything a regular Explorer window does.

Alloye
Oct 11, 2007, 01:15 PM
Yeah, instead of giving me a list of the strong points of the Finder, you tell me that we don't even need the Finder that much and that Vista, overall, is crap. Well, I agree that Vista, overall, is crap. But that's not the point. The point is the Finder is a very weak file management application and we are discussing what would be great additions to the Finder. There are some great, useful features in Vista's Explorer and file dialogs that I wish OS X had.

I don't need the Finder that much, but that's not to say you don't either. That's why I asked the question. When someone makes a complaint about a product, it's usually a good idea to understand their usage pattern.

In any case, I'm not saying the Finder is perfect. Far from it. But Apple has always been about striking a balance between features and simplicity. Microsoft is exactly the opposite. Your arguments make it sound like you want Finder to become Explorer, and that just isn't going to happen.

This is typical Mac zealotry, really.

Ah... The Zealot card. What a fantastic way to help me understand your point of view.

File management is a big part of using a computer. Because the Finder is so weak, managing my files on OS X is more tedious than it has to be.

File management is tedious, period. It's just that I don't find it any less tedious on Windows despite the added features in Explorer. Perhaps what Apple should do is look for ways to innovate in this area rather than copy Microsoft's approach.

In the meantime, I think Leopard's Finder will address a few of your concerns, but I highly doubt you'll be 100% happy with it. Have you tried any alternatives?

tallscot
Oct 11, 2007, 01:23 PM
File management is tedious, period. It's just that I don't find it any less tedious on Windows despite the added features in Explorer.

The equivalency argument is hogwash. Managing windows was more tedious before Exposť. Features make things faster/easer-to-use. Being able to apply one default folder view to all of my folders automatically is less tedious than having to do it manually for each. Being able to see a thumbnail of all my PDF files at once in Icon View is less tedious than having to click on each manually.

Again, dismissing the need because OS X doesn't do something is weak.

Kashchei
Oct 11, 2007, 01:33 PM
OS X is very far from perfect and there are many things in Windows that I wish OS X had, some things that are very basic features that I can't believe we still don't have.

I always appreciate posts like this since I don't use Windows (ever!) and it is nice to hear from people who do and are able to objectively compare the two. I am quite sure, knowing that Microsoft does not employ dolts, that Windows must have some features superior to those found in Tiger or even Leopard. Is this enough to make me change platforms: no. Would I rather stick my head in the sand and proclaim Apple infallible: an equally emphatic no!

Alloye
Oct 11, 2007, 01:58 PM
The equivalency argument is hogwash.

Gee, thanks! :rolleyes:

Features make things faster/easer-to-use.

As long as they are intuitive and don't increase the complexity of the task at hand.

Being able to apply one default folder view to all of my folders automatically is less tedious than having to do it manually for each. Being able to see a thumbnail of all my PDF files at once in Icon View is less tedious than having to click on each manually.

Sounds reasonable. Have you used Leopard's Finder yet?

Again, dismissing the need because OS X doesn't do something is weak.

I haven't dismissed anything. It's just that I don't think Explorer's extra features are a panacea for the ills of file management. Yes, it might be nice if Finder borrowed a few things from Explorer, but my hope is that Apple will eventually find a better way.

Doctor Q
Oct 11, 2007, 03:13 PM
Vista's Explorer is more like what you are describing than OS X. The file dialogs in Vista let you do just about everything a regular Explorer window does.Agreed. File open dialog boxes have many of the context (right-click) options that Explorer windows do, and Mac OS X is lagging a bit there, but open dialox boxes are still missing the menu chocies that Explorer/Finder windows have (Add to Favorites, Duplicate, and so on). My point is, why have two separate types of windows at all? I'd like to see both platforms study that idea.

Jim Campbell
Oct 16, 2007, 07:30 AM
I don't think this is good. The new Finder looks too much like iTunes.

At this rate, all apps will eventually look like iTunes and you're going to find it really difficult to differentiate between them

Umm ... No. Coverflow is an option. If you don't want to use it, don't. You'll never see it, except as a little button that you'll never press.

Hardly the end of the world.

Cheers

Jim