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MacRumors
Oct 10, 2007, 02:45 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2007/10/10/desktop_gallery_stackszoom20070611_400.jpg


Appleinsider provides (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/10/10/road_to_mac_os_x_leopard_dock_1_6.html) another look at the most recent developer's build of Leopard with a focus on the history and improvements in the Finder's Dock.
It's therefore notable that Leopard sports an entirely new Dock appearance, which now presents its icons as three dimensional objects sitting on a translucent glass shelf, rather than flat objects stuck in a translucent ribbon of icon flypaper. Dock icons now cast a reflection on the Dock (as do other windows on the screen, and even the background image), as well as casting a shadow behind them. The combination of the reflection and the shadow contribute to their dimensional appearance.

Leopard's new dock functionality is perhaps most efficiently explained in Apple's demo video (Quicktime) (http://images.apple.com/movies/us/apple/mac/macosx/2007/wwdc/apple-desktop_672x416.mov) of the Dock and Finder. Further description and photos available at at Apple (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/features/desktop.html).

Mac OS X Leopard is reportedly approaching Gold Master status. According to the most recent checks, Apple had 11 high priority bugs left. Apple has previously announced that they intend to ship Leopard in October.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/10/mac-os-x-10-5-leopard-dock-1-6/)



ruckus
Oct 10, 2007, 02:46 PM
I'm pretty excited about leopard's release. I guess everyone here is though :P

jonny
Oct 10, 2007, 02:47 PM
I'm pretty excited about leopard's release. I guess everyone here is though :P

i hope they jailbreak it quickly.




har har

QCassidy352
Oct 10, 2007, 02:47 PM
11 high priority bugs left on october 10th? :-/ I'm beginning to not feel so good about an October release...

psychofreak
Oct 10, 2007, 02:48 PM
I'm liking AppleInsider's style of Leopard reviews...but I wish that there was an option to use the old style dock...

Dock's application icons in prominent view in the center of the screen when using Alt+Tab to jump between applications.
CMD+Tab...we're not in Windows!

KingYaba
Oct 10, 2007, 02:49 PM
I do not like all these reflections in cover flow, finder, and now the dock? I hope I can turn the reflection off.

timnosenzo
Oct 10, 2007, 02:50 PM
Nice article, looks cool. Anxiously awaiting this release!

thejadedmonkey
Oct 10, 2007, 02:53 PM
so how long to fix 11 bugs..?

And what happened to only having 2 known issues with the last release? Did they discover another 9 or something?

iomar
Oct 10, 2007, 02:53 PM
I do not like all these reflections in cover flow, finder, and now the dock? I hope I can turn the reflection off.

I am sure we might have that option. But I love how it looks! I have never been more excited about an operating system. I think this OS will be free of bugs when it arrives.

Rocketman
Oct 10, 2007, 02:56 PM
11 high priority bugs left on october 10th? :-/ I'm beginning to not feel so good about an October release...

This is why I feel the typical user should wait for 10.5.1. Of course the developers will look forward to 10.5.0 as a means to see which features finally made it and which were culled at the last minute. Also their key areas will probably have either bugs or feature changes that are needed. For example Apple may have forsaked modems now, but under 9.2 you could turn one off. Under 10.4 if you manually log off a modem the OS insists on redialing and has no option not to, short of pulling the plug. A modem is still the only way to get internet in plenty of places.

So as with any major new OS update, some of the "old" features it lost in the translation need to be re-added so users who have old habits or needs can live life without downgrading to do so.

Rocketman

weezer160
Oct 10, 2007, 02:58 PM
I'm liking AppleInsider's style of Leopard reviews...but I wish that there was an option to use the old style dock...


CMD+Tab...we're not in Windows!

Or "Apple" + TAB

We're on a Mac!

chr1s60
Oct 10, 2007, 03:01 PM
The dock looks pretty cool. I may be the minority, but I like the reflections. Apple, please just give us a release date before people start to panic.

offwidafairies
Oct 10, 2007, 03:03 PM
11 bugs?
How serious are these bugs?
Im anxious to try out Leopard when it is released, but the more I hear about each build and it's problems the more I am concerned with how stable the new OS will be. It will be useless to me if it cant run ProTools, Sibelius and Photoshop correctly to begin with. Im planning to buy a new MacBook Pro when it is released. Maybe I should hold onto my Powerbook for the transition period

Peace
Oct 10, 2007, 03:03 PM
11 high priority bugs left on october 10th? :-/ I'm beginning to not feel so good about an October release...

Could you please explain to me what a "High Priority" bug is because it's not a classification in radar.

The last seed mentioned one issue.I have some bugs reported and none have ever been classified as "High Priority" by me or Apple engineers.

grappler
Oct 10, 2007, 03:03 PM
So if it looks like they're sitting on a shelf along the bottom, what does it look like when it's on the right or left side of the screen?

boxandrew
Oct 10, 2007, 03:03 PM
So where's the shipping announcement? If it's going to be the 26th, they are cutting it way finer than last time... I'm beginning to be converted to the 'it won't make it for October' view. :(

HLdan
Oct 10, 2007, 03:10 PM
I do not like all these reflections in cover flow, finder, and now the dock? I hope I can turn the reflection off.

Oh you take all the fun out of computing. If you want a boring OS stay in Tiger, if you want even more boring Windows of any version is available.

Multimedia
Oct 10, 2007, 03:13 PM
Dock Schmock, I'd rather just go to the Recent Items menu.

arn
Oct 10, 2007, 03:14 PM
Seed notes don't list every known bug, so 11 shouldn't be seen as an increase. It's certainly a decrease in bugs since the last dev release.

My understanding is that these are 11 issues to be fixed before GM.

arn

c6viperkiller
Oct 10, 2007, 03:14 PM
In Tiger, if the app was written the right way, you couldn't resize the window below the dock. Is this still present in leopard given that one of the "features" of the new dock is the reflections from windows placed behind it?

PlaceofDis
Oct 10, 2007, 03:16 PM
the whole 'stack' idea is what i'm looking forward to the most to be honest.
can't wait.

psychofreak
Oct 10, 2007, 03:17 PM
the whole 'stack' idea is what i'm looking forward to the most to be honest.
can't wait.

That and QuickLook :)

Peace
Oct 10, 2007, 03:21 PM
Seed notes don't list every known bug, so 11 shouldn't be seen as an increase. It's certainly a decrease in bugs since the last dev release.

My understanding is that these are 11 issues to be fixed before GM.

arn

While I agree with you on the seed note part..In all actuality there are probably more than 11 issues with Leopard.I personally know of only one or two that could be listed as "Reproducible Every Time" or "Critical" and I have a lot bugs filed with Leopard.

Eleven Critical bugs? Show me the money.



I might add I've tested it on an iMac,a Macbook and a Mac Pro.I will admit to not using the PPC as a testbed.

OwlsAndApples
Oct 10, 2007, 03:22 PM
That was quite an interesting article...probably because I came to Macs relatively recently and have little knowledge of previous incarnations of the dock...

That and QuickLook :)

Timemachine and Quicklook for me. :)

aswitcher
Oct 10, 2007, 03:24 PM
I like the dock, reflections and all. MB needs a better graphics card to run this me thinks.

psychofreak
Oct 10, 2007, 03:24 PM
I've never used any Mac OS previous to OS9...so like OwlsAndApples I found this very interesting...the author seemed to share my thoughts on the Windows start bar :)

jackc
Oct 10, 2007, 03:25 PM
Anyone have a screenshot with the Dock on the side?

psychofreak
Oct 10, 2007, 03:25 PM
I like the dock, reflections and all. MB needs a better graphics card to run this me thinks.

I guess that a better, but still integrated, graphics chip will come at Macworld...

bijou
Oct 10, 2007, 03:32 PM
Me macbook pro doth drool.:D

grovertdog
Oct 10, 2007, 03:44 PM
Anyone have a screenshot with the Dock on the side?

That is exactly what I was thinking. I think the left side of a iMac screen is a very nice place for the dock to live. I may get vertigo from the reflections of this new dock style! :p

23am
Oct 10, 2007, 03:48 PM
I hope they release 10.5 at 26 Oct. or later, so that I get 10.4 with my iMac. ;)
(Yes - I'm one of those who will wait for 10.5.1.)

pixlnet
Oct 10, 2007, 03:55 PM
Not me...I'm moving to Leopard the night its on sale! I've got everything backed up but cmon people on this board act like its alpha software. People use this internally as their daily OS! It's fine to use. Unless some particular application isnt workable. But I think most should be fine

davak
Oct 10, 2007, 03:59 PM
We just posted the first of our leopard articles. This one shows the two new display options for folders within the dock...

View Dock Folder as Grid or Fan (http://www.tech-recipes.com/rx/2630/leopard_view_dock_folder_grid_fan)

brguitarist
Oct 10, 2007, 04:02 PM
I hope they use the same technique as they did in announcing the iPhone and introduce once cool thing each day :D

demichae
Oct 10, 2007, 04:02 PM
I'm assuming that upon Leopard's release, Apple will ship hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of boxes containing discs. If the software is not yet finished, how does this work? How could they logistically make the discs and box them with less than 21 days left in the month?
Is it possible that they are shipping a current buggy version that somehow updates itself when people are installing the upgrade?

inkswamp
Oct 10, 2007, 04:04 PM
So if it looks like they're sitting on a shelf along the bottom, what does it look like when it's on the right or left side of the screen?

Umm... like a shelf on the side of the screen.

Not sure why people have a problem visualizing this. Maybe it's because the computer screen is standing up. Picture the computer desktop being down below you, as if you're looking straight down at it, like you would a real desktop. Now think about the dock being a shelf. Still a little odd because you have to imagine that the Dock is hovering over the desktop, but can you see how it works that way?

brguitarist
Oct 10, 2007, 04:04 PM
I'm assuming that upon Leopard's release, Apple will ship hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of boxes containing discs. If the software is not yet finished, how does this work? How could they logistically make the discs and box them with less than 21 days left in the month?
Is it possible that they are shipping a current buggy version that somehow updates itself when people are installing the upgrade?

I think I read somewhere that all they need is 2-3 weeks for mass production and distribution of the install DVDs.

riverfreak
Oct 10, 2007, 04:05 PM
So if it looks like they're sitting on a shelf along the bottom, what does it look like when it's on the right or left side of the screen?

My thoughts exactly. Do all the icons spill off the shelf and end up in a Pile?

WRD
Oct 10, 2007, 04:09 PM
I'm liking the idea of the stacks, what if any folder in Finder could be fanned out like a stack? Wouldn't that be a very efficient way to just take a peak inside a folder? To move files aswell, just "stack browse" your way to the folders of interest in one single Finder window and drag the file from one stack to the other. I haven't used it though and don't know exactly how it behaves, just thought that stacks might have been useful in areas other than the Dock...?

elppa
Oct 10, 2007, 04:14 PM
Maybe this is the real reason for the space style background.

No Gravity.

Good article, pleased to hear about the app launching capabilities of stacks, in particular the ability to type the first few letters of the app name.

There were some funny lines as well, my favourites where:

The only downside is that some developers insist of putting their applications into a folder of junk and then name their apps after themselves, notably Adobe and Microsoft.

So far, that's only a distraction, as the Stack icons look a bit messy and cluttered (as stacks of stuff tend to do).

And for a good bit of Vista bashing:

The scrunched TaskBar bays can now popup a live preview of the Window they relate to (above), but this requires mousing over each TaskBar bay Imagine if live previews were just sitting there, live, to preview at a glance without any mousing around? That would take you back half a decade to Mac OS X's Dock.

QCassidy352
Oct 10, 2007, 04:16 PM
Could you please explain to me what a "High Priority" bug is because it's not a classification in radar.

The last seed mentioned one issue.I have some bugs reported and none have ever been classified as "High Priority" by me or Apple engineers.

Nope, I can't! :p But a little common sense tells me that a "high priority bug" is, at the least, something that Apple won't allow in to Gold Master. And to have 11 such bugs at this point in the process worries me. I'm starting to think that either Leopard will not ship in Oct, or that, as someone else suggested, many of us would be better off waiting until 10.5.1.

OldBobsledGuy
Oct 10, 2007, 04:18 PM
Looks like this will be my first post to MacRumors....
Being a recent Mac convert (I say with great pride) in June, I am actually in no hurry to upgrade the Mac OS. I'm still learning the system and will wait until some of the bugs are worked out. I've enjoyed reading this forum and look forward to getting my copy a little later once you experts have vetted it out...

CJD2112
Oct 10, 2007, 04:21 PM
11 bugs?
How serious are these bugs?
Im anxious to try out Leopard when it is released, but the more I hear about each build and it's problems the more I am concerned with how stable the new OS will be. It will be useless to me if it cant run ProTools, Sibelius and Photoshop correctly to begin with. Im planning to buy a new MacBook Pro when it is released. Maybe I should hold onto my Powerbook for the transition period

I run Adobe CS3 on Leopard 9A599, haven't had any issues with Photoshop. Seems to be fairly stable, they definitely fixed a bug with Safari 3.0.2 crashing frequently, although it still has a few glitches. Overall, a few more beta's and I think it should be all set. Here's hoping "Fast OS Switching" makes an appearance either in the release or in an update.

Oh, any one else remember in beta 499 or such there was an "Answering Machine" option in iChat 4.0? You could record a video away message for people. I wonder why they got rid of that. Would have been cool, especially if the iPhone had iChat (and with video conferencing), getting a video away message would have rocked. :)

flopticalcube
Oct 10, 2007, 04:23 PM
Looks like this will be my first post to MacRumors....
Being a recent Mac convert (I say with great pride) in June, I am actually in no hurry to upgrade the Mac OS. I'm still learning the system and will wait until some of the bugs are worked out. I've enjoyed reading this forum and look forward to getting my copy a little later once you experts have vetted it out...

Welcome to the forum. I'll be joining you in the late comer's lineup. Maybe 10.5.1 if 10.5.0 looks good.

Mac OS X Ocelot
Oct 10, 2007, 04:25 PM
Umm... like a shelf on the side of the screen.

Not sure why people have a problem visualizing this. Maybe it's because the computer screen is standing up. Picture the computer desktop being down below you, as if you're looking straight down at it, like you would a real desktop. Now think about the dock being a shelf. Still a little odd because you have to imagine that the Dock is hovering over the desktop, but can you see how it works that way?

I think you made things worse...and hurt my brain.

Mac OS X Ocelot
Oct 10, 2007, 04:31 PM
Not being a developer, I don't understand all the need to wait for 10.5.1. I pre-ordered Tiger and received it the day of release. I had no problems with it whatsoever and was excited to be using it. All you devs keep saying 10.4.0 was horrible, but I'll never know.

henjin
Oct 10, 2007, 04:32 PM
I do not like all these reflections in cover flow, finder, and now the dock? I hope I can turn the reflection off.

Well as expected I don't like it. I don't like the dock anyway. Takes screen space away from me. OSX has the Dock and a whole spread along the top. Making it 3D will make OSX popular. Like the iPhone I owned for 14 days it spins, it looks cool but hell some of us here use our computers for work as well as fun. Nothing wrong with consumers having an OS for themselves but I'd pay extra to get rid of all the bells so that my expensive cpu/gpu will not be used for all this rubbish.

I really don't want frufru. Give me the fastest OS out there. Ease of us does not mean it has to spin like a kids game. Are we Americans so childish? Come on guys Jobs taste is one of a baby boomer who will not grow up. He doesn't use his computers for work. He plays with them. We have to put up with his taste? It's worse than MS ... okay as bad.:)

I had to go back to using my powerbook G4 1.33 12 inch after using my Dell and OSX burns up so much power by comparison to the fast and speedy XP and it's not just CD2, it also works fast on a Pentium. Horrible OS but at least it gets out of the damn way.

I realize I am in the minority but I hope Apple is not counting on faster chips to pay for all this garbage. When I use XP on my MacBook Pro it's fast and makes Tiger look like a cluttered slug.

Well I guess I can just buy Apple hardware and run windows:(

iJawn108
Oct 10, 2007, 04:33 PM
In Tiger, if the app was written the right way, you couldn't resize the window below the dock. Is this still present in leopard given that one of the "features" of the new dock is the reflections from windows placed behind it?Yes very much so, but I allways hide my dock.

p0intblank
Oct 10, 2007, 04:33 PM
I can't wait until Leopard! :D I'm definitely very excited about its release.

gnasher729
Oct 10, 2007, 04:34 PM
Nope, I can't! :p But a little common sense tells me that a "high priority bug" is, at the least, something that Apple won't allow in to Gold Master. And to have 11 such bugs at this point in the process worries me. I'm starting to think that either Leopard will not ship in Oct, or that, as someone else suggested, many of us would be better off waiting until 10.5.1.

Come on, 11 high priority bugs means there are 11 of the brightest programmers money can buy working to fix them. With any number of bright programmers being able to help them. Worst case, one week from now nine problems are fixed, and if two problems resist any debugging, then parts of two features will be gone. That is worst case.

inkswamp
Oct 10, 2007, 04:36 PM
I think you made things worse...and hurt my brain.

Wasn't my intent, and like I said, it's still odd and doesn't work perfectly (i.e., the edges of the dock recede into the distance.) But if you picture it sliding in over a horizontal desktop surface, then it makes sense how a shelf could exist there.

Send my apologies to your aching neurons. :D

JMax1
Oct 10, 2007, 04:41 PM
Does the cursor cast a refection and shadow on the dock as well? How about if a window with a video playing in it?

hmmm

milo
Oct 10, 2007, 04:43 PM
The dock looks pretty cool. I may be the minority, but I like the reflections. Apple, please just give us a release date before people start to panic.

They already did. October. It will probably be the 26th and we should know a few days before that because apple will announce their event. I think some people just want to find a reason to panic.

milo
Oct 10, 2007, 04:46 PM
I'm assuming that upon Leopard's release, Apple will ship hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of boxes containing discs. If the software is not yet finished, how does this work? How could they logistically make the discs and box them with less than 21 days left in the month?
Is it possible that they are shipping a current buggy version that somehow updates itself when people are installing the upgrade?

It only takes a couple weeks to duplicate disks. And yes, they definitely can have a downloadable update the day the OS ships if they want.

psychofreak
Oct 10, 2007, 04:50 PM
And yes, they definitely can have a downloadable update the day the OS ships if they want.

It still has to be stable for the small minority without an internet connection (at least for a few days before they do) when they first install the OS...

jhsfosho
Oct 10, 2007, 04:52 PM
Yay for Apple. 11 bugs still is a little nerve-wrecking. Im just looking forward to getting my hands on it. Reflections are cool, but if it slows my laptop down then I'll be turning them off very quickly....or getting a new Laptop.
I hate how quickly technology improves. Granted Apple is one of the slower manufacturers to update hardware products when there is a new chip released.

psychofreak
Oct 10, 2007, 04:56 PM
Yay for Apple. 11 bugs still is a little nerve-wrecking. Im just looking forward to getting my hands on it. Reflections are cool, but if it slows my laptop down then I'll be turning them off very quickly....or getting a new Laptop.
I hate how quickly technology improves. Granted Apple is one of the slower manufacturers to update hardware products when there is a new chip released.

You don't HAVE to upgrade to Leopard if your laptop can't keep up...and (as of the latest build) there is no way to turn off the reflections...

Eraserhead
Oct 10, 2007, 05:09 PM
Yay for Apple. 11 bugs still is a little nerve-wrecking. Im just looking forward to getting my hands on it. Reflections are cool, but if it slows my laptop down then I'll be turning them off very quickly....or getting a new Laptop.

If your Mac isn't capable of running the animations they'll be off automatically, just like those with older Macs don't necessarily see the ripple on dashboard.

However as you have a Core Duo MBP I'm sure you'll be fine for the special effects. I'd expect the Intel version of Leopard at least to be faster than Tiger on the same hardware.

mcmacmcmac
Oct 10, 2007, 05:10 PM
i Need Leopard Released Now!!


I Can't Wait Anymore To Order This Dam Computer!!!!!

Eidorian
Oct 10, 2007, 05:10 PM
If your Mac isn't capable of running the animations they'll be off automatically, just like those with older Macs don't necessarily see the ripple on dashboard.

However as you have a Core Duo MBP I'm sure you'll be fine for the special effects. I'd expect the Intel version of Leopard at least to be faster than Tiger on the same hardware.Any idea on what the minimum requirements for the animations are?

My guesses are Core Image at least. I doubt full OpenGL 2.0/2.1 is needed.

milo
Oct 10, 2007, 05:11 PM
It still has to be stable for the small minority without an internet connection (at least for a few days before they do) when they first install the OS...

Yep. And it sounds like it is stable enough. 11 bugs just mean 11 things that aren't working, not things that will make the machine lock up.

GNice
Oct 10, 2007, 05:21 PM
I wish I could wait for 10.5.1...but I can't...give me, give me, give me...now. :)

Lyra
Oct 10, 2007, 05:22 PM
I really only have a simple question folks...

How long does it take to produce 3 million or 5 million DVD discs with Leopard?

And how long does it take to package them and ship them to their destinations?

Finally, how big WILL Leopard be in size? Tiger is only 2.6GB on DVD disc. Will Leopard be a dual layered DVD disc? If so, will that not cause some issues with older readers?

I have a bad feeling about the last week of October... I somehow don't think we'll get what we've been waiting for.. we'll just get a buggy OS that should have been fixed before we pay so much money.

Sure all OS's are buggy, but let's be honest here for a moment, this OS should have been out in April and we should all be talking about MacOS X 10.5.3 and not when will we see a GM soon...

Sorry but Apple has been very disappointing in their products lately, my new Ipod Touch had a defective screen, my new MacBook Pro has a defective screen, my friends iMac is defective and the list goes on and on if you read the websites...

What the frak is going on here?
:(

alljunks
Oct 10, 2007, 05:38 PM
looks like the release date will be push back again...

BTW
Oct 10, 2007, 05:38 PM
That and QuickLook :)

TimeMachine will be sweet too and especially if ZFS is all that it is made out to be (read/write ZFS that is). :D

elppa
Oct 10, 2007, 05:38 PM
I really only have a simple question folks...

How long does it take to produce 3 million or 5 million DVD discs with Leopard?

And how long does it take to package them and ship them to their destinations?

Finally, how big WILL Leopard be in size? Tiger is only 2.6GB on DVD disc. Will Leopard be a dual layered DVD disc? If so, will that not cause some issues with older readers?

I have a bad feeling about the last week of October... I somehow don't think we'll get what we've been waiting for.. we'll just get a buggy OS that should have been fixed before we pay so much money.

Sure all OS's are buggy, but let's be honest here for a moment, this OS should have been out in April and we should all be talking about MacOS X 10.5.3 and not when will we see a GM soon...

Sorry but Apple has been very disappointing in their products lately, my new Ipod Touch had a defective screen, my new MacBook Pro has a defective screen, my friends iMac is defective and the list goes on and on if you read the websites...

What the frak is going on here?
:(

You have had some bad luck. Hopefully is is being sorted?

To answer your query, I imagine instead of doing dual layer, they will simply ship two or more DVDs. The Mac OS X 10.0 to 10.3 boxes came with multiple CDs for the installation.

The capacity of a DVD is 4.7GB, so if Tiger was 2.6, that still gives them a fair bit of room to play with.

matticus008
Oct 10, 2007, 05:39 PM
How long does it take to produce 3 million or 5 million DVD discs with Leopard?
Using a large-scale pressing firm? About four days, assuming OS X is the only client in that time. Apple probably uses multiple sources and can easily pull off pressing and packaging in about a week.
Finally, how big WILL Leopard be in size? Tiger is only 2.6GB on DVD disc. Will Leopard be a dual layered DVD disc? If so, will that not cause some issues with older readers?
If you can play a standard DVD movie, you can read a dual layer disc. Writing them is another matter, but not relevant here. I don't see why Leopard would exceed 4.7GB, though.

digitalbiker
Oct 10, 2007, 05:40 PM
Umm... like a shelf on the side of the screen.

Not sure why people have a problem visualizing this. Maybe it's because the computer screen is standing up. Picture the computer desktop being down below you, as if you're looking straight down at it, like you would a real desktop. Now think about the dock being a shelf. Still a little odd because you have to imagine that the Dock is hovering over the desktop, but can you see how it works that way?

To be honest it doesn't look very good on the side because not only doesn't it represent a real world object but the reflections are wrong.

The old dock placed on the side didn't matter because it was 2D and icons were just flat and stacked on top of each other. The new dock placed on the side looks 3D and juts into the screen, and the icons don't sit on anything, they just float next to the dock. Also the reflections displayed on a sideways dock are not reflections from the side. They are reflections from the top, so they don't really hit the dock correctly.

In my opinion the sideways dock looks bad in Leopard and will probably look worse once icons start to go 3D. This is too bad since placing a dock on the side of a cinema display is my favorite configuration.

The dock looks great on the bottom by the way, I like it's look much better.

digitalbiker
Oct 10, 2007, 05:45 PM
Using a large-scale pressing firm? About four days, assuming OS X is the only client in that time. Apple probably uses multiple sources and can easily pull off pressing and packaging in about a week.

If you can play a standard DVD movie, you can read a dual layer disc. Writing them is another matter, but not relevant here. I don't see why Leopard would exceed 4.7GB, though.

All of the developer's builds have been greater than 5 GB's so far. However it is possible that the final release will be under 4.7 GB.

Lyra
Oct 10, 2007, 05:59 PM
You have had some bad luck. Hopefully is is being sorted?

To answer your query, I imagine instead of doing dual layer, they will simply ship two or more DVDs. The Mac OS X 10.0 to 10.3 boxes came with multiple CDs for the installation.

The capacity of a DVD is 4.7GB, so if Tiger was 2.6, that still gives them a fair bit of room to play with.

Thank you for your answer I really appreciate it!

A friend of mine has Leopard the latest build and he claims it's on a dual layered DVD. I've not even seen it in action and I can't wait to get it onto my brand new MacBook Pro. But it's not showing colors as it should so I might have to go back with it. I did that with my iPod Touch and I miss it, but the genius said to me that I should just wait till late November to make sure I get one of the newest ones from the factory... So I guess I'll do that. I do miss it to be honest. It was a wonderful little gadget!

Lyra
Oct 10, 2007, 06:02 PM
Using a large-scale pressing firm? About four days, assuming OS X is the only client in that time. Apple probably uses multiple sources and can easily pull off pressing and packaging in about a week.

If you can play a standard DVD movie, you can read a dual layer disc. Writing them is another matter, but not relevant here. I don't see why Leopard would exceed 4.7GB, though.


Thank you for your reply,

It's really fast! I had no idea they could press so many discs in such a short time. I can't wait to get it. I am working on resolving the issue with my MacBook Pro. I've had Mac since 1991 and bought one every year since that time. So I've been through some rough patches but this one is pretty bad.

The iPod Touch is returned and I'll buy it again sometime late November. I really did love it.

As for my MacBook Pro, the colors are way off and I can't make any color look even remotely realistic compared to my friends MacBook Pro, same build. His was bought the same day and his screen looks different. I think one of us has a Samsung screen and the other an LG.

Thank you again for answering.

It's nice when someone cares enough to answer back... :)

mrweirdo
Oct 10, 2007, 06:09 PM
I am planing on being one of the ones to order up leopard for my macbook the moment it becomes available. I will also make a backup image of tiger before installing. The worst case senario is i find there are some issues with leopard so i decide not to use it yet. Meanwhile I will still have the brand spanking new leopard disk around ready and willing to go once an update becomes available.

Its not like any money will be wasted as leopard will be around for awhile ;)

psychofreak
Oct 10, 2007, 06:14 PM
Does the cursor cast a refection and shadow on the dock as well? How about if a window with a video playing in it?
I don't know about the cursor, but videos reflect...

TimeMachine will be sweet too and especially if ZFS is all that it is made out to be (read/write ZFS that is). :D
That has been said by apple not to be in 10.5.0...it will likely come in updates :)

Detlev
Oct 10, 2007, 06:17 PM
11 Bugs. Let them fix them. There will be another dozen or so when it gets released. For everyone pushing to get this done by Oct 31 just because they said so, don't you remember 10.4's first few weeks of existence? Dang, if these forms weren't full of angry people saying how Apple should be more responsible and how they are turning into Microsoft (I liken Apple to the Red Sox now that everyone seems to be a fanógive me a break).

crossifixio
Oct 10, 2007, 06:18 PM
Looking forward to the new dock and to using leopard in general. Cant wait to go to the store and pick my copy. Todays dreams tomorrows reality :D :apple:

King Crimson
Oct 10, 2007, 06:21 PM
They already did. October. It will probably be the 26th and we should know a few days before that because apple will announce their event. I think some people just want to find a reason to panic.

A devolopers life aint fun when deadline arise :p

jakesteramma
Oct 10, 2007, 06:23 PM
bugs bugs bugs :eek: unavoidable

At least they are known bugs. Wait until they have millions of people using Leopard and guess what they'll find.... more bugs. That's computers for you.

It doesn't have me worried. I'm excited to use Leopard.

I'm just wondering.... I couldn't wait to get my iMAC 24". I ordered it on October 4th. It will arrive (from China no less) on October 12th.

If Leopard releases on Oct. 26th, will I still have to buy it full price or will I get a rebate like the whole iPhone thing? I'm just curious. If I have to spend the extra bucks, I'm sure it will be worth it.

I'm so happy to be going back to MAC!!!!!!! :):):)

I hope everyone enjoys Leopard, bugs or no bugs. :D;)

Darkroom
Oct 10, 2007, 06:46 PM
these 11 bugs could have all very well been solved today... i don't understand why some people are assuming 10.5 is going to be pushed further?

quigleybc
Oct 10, 2007, 07:09 PM
Anyone else thinking that an October release is not gonna happen ????

!° V °!
Oct 10, 2007, 07:14 PM
It only takes a couple weeks to duplicate disks. And yes, they definitely can have a downloadable update the day the OS ships if they want.

What would be interesting is if :apple: has already shipped packages with two blank discs for OS 10.5 and dev tools. Then once the OS is "gold master" they post it on the :apple: intranet site for the numerous :apple: store managers to start burning OS 10.5 and dev tools to those blank discs and put it into the packaging.

Might be a little extra work for the :apple: store managers, however the consumers will be happy that the OS is released on time and in good working condition. Any thoughts.

The present way of OS distribution is dated.

!° V °!
Oct 10, 2007, 07:15 PM
`Anyone else thinking that an October release is not gonna happen ????

This is a situation when TimeMachine would be handy. ;) :)

lancestraz
Oct 10, 2007, 07:16 PM
Anyone else thinking that an October release is not gonna happen ????
Yes, lots of people.
But not me because (a) They already delayed it once, they won't do it again even if they have to rush it out the door a little. (b) If they were to delay it they would have said something before October. Worst case, is they start taking pre-orders before the month is up but dont actually ship until mid/late November.

Lesser Evets
Oct 10, 2007, 07:24 PM
Worst case, is they start taking pre-orders before the month is up but dont actually ship until mid/late November.

I somehow doubt that is a likelihood because they are seemingly near Gold Master. There is still time. Latest release might be first week in November. They've had months and months working on the versions released to the WWDC people, so it isn't like they have something that doesn't work or is very rudimentary. They have it, it's done enough for release; put it out and patch it up in time as needed.

!° V °!
Oct 10, 2007, 07:25 PM
Well as expected I don't like it. I don't like the dock anyway. Takes screen space away from me. OSX has the Dock and a whole spread along the top. Making it 3D will make OSX popular. Like the iPhone I owned for 14 days it spins, it looks cool but hell some of us here use our computers for work as well as fun. Nothing wrong with consumers having an OS for themselves but I'd pay extra to get rid of all the bells so that my expensive cpu/gpu will not be used for all this rubbish.

I always wondered why has :apple: never merged the dock/shelf to the cursor.

For instance when you hit the (:apple:/command key + press on the mouse) a dock/shelf or grid would pop over the cursor. This method would add more screen real-estate, functionality and, flexibility. At present if you have a multi-screen setup, the dock/shelf will only display on the monitor you set as the main screen.

The dock/shelf has lost its functionality for looks. Some argue if the dock/shelf was ever a wise move on :apple: part.

!° V °!
Oct 10, 2007, 07:29 PM
All of the developer's builds have been greater than 5 GB's so far. However it is possible that the final release will be under 4.7 GB.

If my memory servers me correctly, I believe that 10.4 and 10.3 were shipped on multiple DVD's. Some of the :apple: hardware line does not read DVDĪR DL so it might be a problem. :)

Neutral Gamer
Oct 10, 2007, 07:31 PM
Anyone else thinking that an October release is not gonna happen ????
This is a situation when TimeMachine would be handy. ;) :)

Haha, that made me laugh mate! :D

HLdan
Oct 10, 2007, 07:37 PM
bugs bugs bugs :eek: unavoidable

At least they are known bugs. Wait until they have millions of people using Leopard and guess what they'll find.... more bugs. That's computers for you.

It doesn't have me worried. I'm excited to use Leopard.

I'm just wondering.... I couldn't wait to get my iMAC 24". I ordered it on October 4th. It will arrive (from China no less) on October 12th.

If Leopard releases on Oct. 26th, will I still have to buy it full price or will I get a rebate like the whole iPhone thing? I'm just curious. If I have to spend the extra bucks, I'm sure it will be worth it.

I'm so happy to be going back to MAC!!!!!!! :):):)

I hope everyone enjoys Leopard, bugs or no bugs. :D;)

Fantastic! :D Now that you are coming back to the MAC stop spelling it "MAC". It's Mac, as in iMac, Macbook, Mac Pro. Another company owns the spelling with all caps. I'm not being picky, it makes a difference.

Roy Hobbs
Oct 10, 2007, 07:42 PM
If my memory servers me correctly, I believe that 10.4 and 10.3 were shipped on multiple DVD's. Some of the :apple: hardware line does not read DVDĪR DL so it might be a problem. :)

All DVD drives in Macs can read dual layer discs

dvince2
Oct 10, 2007, 07:51 PM
Oh, any one else remember in beta 499 or such there was an "Answering Machine" option in iChat 4.0? You could record a video away message for people. I wonder why they got rid of that. Would have been cool, especially if the iPhone had iChat (and with video conferencing), getting a video away message would have rocked. :)

Would Apple be pulling features from betas that are known to be in working order, to put back in for the final release? It would be a good way of controlling a tonne of screen shots of new features...

SiliconAddict
Oct 10, 2007, 07:56 PM
I'm going to be honest. I will buy Leopard the day it comes out. There is NO way in hell I'll install it before 10.5.1 comes out. If you can't see that leopard is being rushed you are blind. Leopard is Apple's Vista sans the 3 year delay.

SiliconAddict
Oct 10, 2007, 07:58 PM
All DVD drives in Macs can read dual layer discs

All DVD drives period can read DL disks.

Iroganai
Oct 10, 2007, 07:59 PM
These Appleinsider articles are really good !

I can't wait to see John Siracusa's ArsTechnica review (Tiger version is here (http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/macosx-10.4.ars/1))
and to read the OS X book (http://osxbook.com) updated for Leopard !

Muzzway
Oct 10, 2007, 08:06 PM
`

This is a situation when TimeMachine would be handy. ;) :)

I am from the future, and I can confirm that Leopard was released on October 26th, and that Time Machine is working well.

(Well, actually, I can't remember too well. It might not have been the 26th, so don't go bet everything on it.)

digitalbiker
Oct 10, 2007, 08:20 PM
I'm going to be honest. I will buy Leopard the day it comes out. There is NO way in hell I'll install it before 10.5.1 comes out. If you can't see that leopard is being rushed you are blind. Leopard is Apple's Vista sans the 3 year delay.

I wouldn't compare this to Vista at all. Leopard is very, very, stable. Even though it contains new features and such, it is still more like a very mature 10.4 than a completely new OS.

Vista on the other hand was a major change for MS. Even now a year after the release, people are still demanding XP on new machines because of existing software and hardware issues. In fact, MS has extended the sale of new licenses of XP instead of pulling it off the market.

To be honest I have been hard pressed to find any show stopping issues in Leopard.

jackc
Oct 10, 2007, 08:25 PM
By the way, here's a pic of the Dock on the right. I don't find it quite so horrible, particularly since I keep it hidden, but I'd prefer it without the fancy visual effects

http://www.rogueamoeba.com/utm/posts/Thoughts/sidedock-2007-08-29-16-00

skinnylegs
Oct 10, 2007, 08:29 PM
I'm going to be honest. I will buy Leopard the day it comes out. There is NO way in hell I'll install it before 10.5.1 comes out. If you can't see that leopard is being rushed you are blind. Leopard is Apple's Vista sans the 3 year delay.Well there 'ya go! The voice of authority has spoken. :rolleyes:

So let me understand this, you're going to "buy it the day it comes out" but there is "no way in hell you will install it before 10.5.1." Hmmm.......so which is it? :rolleyes:

None Such
Oct 10, 2007, 08:41 PM
I feel like such an idiot. I didn't realize that the dock in Leopard was 3D, until this story. I thought it was some weird oblong trapezoid shape. And I didn't like it at all. I like it a lot now. I guess I really didn't look closely at any screenshots. Or maybe the reflections etc got better? Or the 3D images of the items on the dock helped?

sbluetruck
Oct 10, 2007, 08:44 PM
yay for stacks!

Project
Oct 10, 2007, 08:53 PM
anybody got a screenshot of the Documents stack in action?

sam10685
Oct 10, 2007, 08:59 PM
11 high priority bugs left on october 10th? :-/ I'm beginning to not feel so good about an October release...

microsoft would still have 50 high priority bugs with an october 11th release.

jakesteramma
Oct 10, 2007, 09:10 PM
Fantastic! :D Now that you are coming back to the MAC stop spelling it "MAC". It's Mac, as in iMac, Macbook, Mac Pro. Another company owns the spelling with all caps. I'm not being picky, it makes a difference.

Sorry. I'll spull mac rite next tyme. I'd hate to have someone on this site not know that I'm talking about an IMAC or a MaC pRo. :eek:

thirdeyeopen666
Oct 10, 2007, 09:23 PM
I don't understand the point of stacks... sure they look cool, but if you can't right-click on items, then it's completely useless.

JBat
Oct 10, 2007, 09:24 PM
Well as expected I don't like it. I don't like the dock anyway. Takes screen space away from me. OSX has the Dock and a whole spread along the top. Making it 3D will make OSX popular. Like the iPhone I owned for 14 days it spins, it looks cool but hell some of us here use our computers for work as well as fun. Nothing wrong with consumers having an OS for themselves but I'd pay extra to get rid of all the bells so that my expensive cpu/gpu will not be used for all this rubbish.

I really don't want frufru. Give me the fastest OS out there. Ease of us does not mean it has to spin like a kids game. Are we Americans so childish? Come on guys Jobs taste is one of a baby boomer who will not grow up. He doesn't use his computers for work. He plays with them. We have to put up with his taste? It's worse than MS ... okay as bad.:)

I had to go back to using my powerbook G4 1.33 12 inch after using my Dell and OSX burns up so much power by comparison to the fast and speedy XP and it's not just CD2, it also works fast on a Pentium. Horrible OS but at least it gets out of the damn way.

I realize I am in the minority but I hope Apple is not counting on faster chips to pay for all this garbage. When I use XP on my MacBook Pro it's fast and makes Tiger look like a cluttered slug.

Well I guess I can just buy Apple hardware and run windows:(

Take a bong hit and lighten up, dude. If Windoze is that great, feel free to switch back.

Thertel88
Oct 10, 2007, 09:25 PM
Is it easier to back up my files on my macbook before moving to leopard? Or should I just upload Leopard as is?

dr_lha
Oct 10, 2007, 09:37 PM
Or "Apple" + TAB

We're on a Mac!
Err.... that button is called "Command" (or CMD for short if you like), not "Apple", so CMD + TAB is correct, "Apple" + TAB is wrong.

HLdan
Oct 10, 2007, 09:38 PM
Well as expected I don't like it. I don't like the dock anyway. Takes screen space away from me. OSX has the Dock and a whole spread along the top. Making it 3D will make OSX popular. Like the iPhone I owned for 14 days it spins, it looks cool but hell some of us here use our computers for work as well as fun. Nothing wrong with consumers having an OS for themselves but I'd pay extra to get rid of all the bells so that my expensive cpu/gpu will not be used for all this rubbish.

I really don't want frufru. Give me the fastest OS out there. Ease of us does not mean it has to spin like a kids game. Are we Americans so childish? Come on guys Jobs taste is one of a baby boomer who will not grow up. He doesn't use his computers for work. He plays with them. We have to put up with his taste? It's worse than MS ... okay as bad.:)

I had to go back to using my powerbook G4 1.33 12 inch after using my Dell and OSX burns up so much power by comparison to the fast and speedy XP and it's not just CD2, it also works fast on a Pentium. Horrible OS but at least it gets out of the damn way.

I realize I am in the minority but I hope Apple is not counting on faster chips to pay for all this garbage. When I use XP on my MacBook Pro it's fast and makes Tiger look like a cluttered slug.

Well I guess I can just buy Apple hardware and run windows:(

I'm sure you wrote all of that just to ruffle feathers and get people to quote you and I will.
Dude get yourself a plain old Thinkpad and Windows 98 and you're all set. Obviously you prefer to live a boring computing life and this set up will do you well.
Also you need to understand that the world lives on computers for everything. We no longer need them just to do exciting things like spreadsheets and corporate presentations with charts, woo hoo:rolleyes:

News flash, computers are a big part of our entertainment lives, we use them more than TV or telephones so graphics and a beautiful OS play big so wake up or go back to Windows 98, I think the latter works best for you. :p
P.S You talk about Mac OS X being a slow OS, tried Vista lately???

twoodcc
Oct 10, 2007, 09:51 PM
i'm still hoping they announce the release date on this friday.

legacyb4
Oct 10, 2007, 09:57 PM
I'm going to use Leopard as an opportunity/excuse to buy a new 160GB laptop drive and put my existing drive on ice for a while...

I am planing on being one of the ones to order up leopard for my macbook the moment it becomes available. I will also make a backup image of tiger before installing. The worst case senario is i find there are some issues with leopard so i decide not to use it yet. Meanwhile I will still have the brand spanking new leopard disk around ready and willing to go once an update becomes available.

Its not like any money will be wasted as leopard will be around for awhile ;)

TPALTony
Oct 10, 2007, 10:02 PM
Could you please explain to me what a "High Priority" bug is because it's not a classification in radar.

The last seed mentioned one issue.I have some bugs reported and none have ever been classified as "High Priority" by me or Apple engineers.

Don't equate priority with severity. Something could be of trivial severity but high priority. Remember this is Apple. Attention to detail and all that. Steve could look at some minor UI issue and say "That's GOT to be fixed." Minor, but high priority.

If you want to view it mathematically (which I tend to do!) then you can view Overall Importance = Severity x Priority. Apple don't publish OI. You report S when you file a bug. They determine P. :-)

be well

t

MattyMac
Oct 10, 2007, 10:03 PM
Very nice! I won't buy leopard, but I may just buy a new mac with leopard installed:D

Peace
Oct 10, 2007, 10:12 PM
Don't equate priority with severity. Something could be of trivial severity but high priority. Remember this is Apple. Attention to detail and all that. Steve could look at some minor UI issue and say "That's GOT to be fixed." Minor, but high priority.

If you want to view it mathematically (which I tend to do!) then you can view Overall Importance = Severity x Priority. Apple don't publish OI. You report S when you file a bug. They determine P. :-)

be well

t


Great math..

If S=>CRASH then P=HIGH

If S=< barely visible slightly off-round corner then P=LOW


Unless of course one is working of the Final Release.:)

Detlev
Oct 10, 2007, 10:37 PM
Err.... that button is called "Command" (or CMD for short if you like), not "Apple", so CMD + TAB is correct, "Apple" + TAB is wrong.

You are correct, that it is called "Command", but are dismissing the fact that it had been called "Apple" + tab for many years by AppleCare and users alike.

4ndr3w
Oct 10, 2007, 10:53 PM
I like the dock, reflections and all. MB needs a better graphics card to run this me thinks.

I can't say much, but it runs on a Macbook just fine. The GMA950 really isn't that bad, people.

Genghis Khan
Oct 10, 2007, 11:09 PM
leopard *drool*

although these 11 high priority bugs indicates to me that apple will fix these up and then rush out 10.5.1 early november to fix the 'low-priority' ones

I WAS the one
Oct 10, 2007, 11:13 PM
I always had a love-hate relationship with the dock. if you use a big monitor then the Dock its perfect, but on a 17" monitor the Dock it's always in the middle of your everyday tasks, yes you can hide it but it cost you time everytime you need to put the mouse at the bottom just to select other app, of course you can use :apple: + Tab but then again it keeps you out of productivity. as I said Big Monitor = good Dock, Small Monitor = bad Dock.
I hope that this new version with the Fan and OVERFLOW (http://www.stuntsoftware.com/Overflow/) kid of app feature helps instead of damage the user friendly experience. I've been using Over Flow (http://www.stuntsoftware.com/Overflow/) Since its debut and I love it. and somthing tells me that I will continue using it also in Leopard... Categories option missing... anyone?

offwidafairies
Oct 10, 2007, 11:23 PM
I'm liking the idea of the stacks, what if any folder in Finder could be fanned out like a stack? Wouldn't that be a very efficient way to just take a peak inside a folder? To move files aswell, just "stack browse" your way to the folders of interest in one single Finder window and drag the file from one stack to the other. I haven't used it though and don't know exactly how it behaves, just thought that stacks might have been useful in areas other than the Dock...?

That would be cool. It annoys me to have to look inside each folder
It would be great if you could alter settings to see all folders inside folders inside folders with one click :)

BKKbill
Oct 10, 2007, 11:39 PM
Fantastic! :D Now that you are coming back to the MAC stop spelling it "MAC". It's Mac, as in iMac, Macbook, Mac Pro. Another company owns the spelling with all caps. I'm not being picky, it makes a difference.

Really you are being picky. If you google MAC guess what comes up first, not that other company but apple. :p

hrsetrdr
Oct 10, 2007, 11:42 PM
Well as expected I don't like it.

I really don't want frufru. Give me the fastest OS out there.

Then you'd want to be getting Debian or Gentoo.


Well I guess I can just buy Apple hardware and run windows:(

Naaaw! :eek:


I had been running Debian on my machines(and still do) but I had been lusting for a Mac for years; finally got one(actually, a couple) just in the last month. Something special about Macs, very nice! ;)

HLdan
Oct 11, 2007, 12:16 AM
Really you are being picky. If you google MAC guess what comes up first, not that other company but apple. :p
That's because Google is not case sensitive. MAC stands for Media Access Control, it's for the MAC address. Also the truck and the makeup company.
That's why Apple spells it Mac. But only the Windows switchers seem to have a problem spelling it correctly but never seem to spell windows the way I just did.
No worries, keep spelling it MAC, it helps to determine who are the true Mac users and the Mac switchers who bought the Mac to use for Windows as well.

sblasl
Oct 11, 2007, 12:27 AM
As in the Aqua scrollbars that apparently are still around.:apple:Don't equate priority with severity. Something could be of trivial severity but high priority. Remember this is Apple. Attention to detail and all that. Steve could look at some minor UI issue and say "That's GOT to be fixed." Minor, but high priority.

If you want to view it mathematically (which I tend to do!) then you can view Overall Importance = Severity x Priority. Apple don't publish OI. You report S when you file a bug. They determine P. :-)

be well

t

SiliconAddict
Oct 11, 2007, 12:33 AM
Well there 'ya go! The voice of authority has spoken. :rolleyes:

So let me understand this, you're going to "buy it the day it comes out" but there is "no way in hell you will install it before 10.5.1." Hmmm.......so which is it? :rolleyes:

Umm you do realize that you can buy something without installing it right? :rolleyes: And at what point did I EVER claim to be an authority? Its called an opinion. Wonderful things really. I means I don't have to agree with you, in any way, shape, or form.
Back to the purchase. I got my MS settlement check in the mail yesterday for $114. I've got the money. I'm not going to spend said money on anything else and the price of Leopard isn't going to go down.
I'll buy it, toss it on the shelf for 2 months, and when apple releases 10.5.1, $10 says it will be within 2 months of launch, I'll install it.
But I'm sorry Leopard feels like a rush job. When you slash features there IS a reason.

Iroganai
Oct 11, 2007, 01:14 AM
Well there 'ya go! The voice of authority has spoken. :rolleyes:

And at what point did I EVER claim to be an authority? Its called an opinion.

Umm, do you know what sarcasm/irony means ?

BKKbill
Oct 11, 2007, 01:36 AM
That's because Google is not case sensitive. MAC stands for Media Access Control, it's for the MAC address. Also the truck and the makeup company.
That's why Apple spells it Mac. But only the Windows switchers seem to have a problem spelling it correctly but never seem to spell windows the way I just did.
No worries, keep spelling it MAC, it helps to determine who are the true Mac users and the Mac switchers who bought the Mac to use for Windows as well.

Adjective: picky 1. Exacting especially about details.

Well guess that makes me right at least twice. Don't get too bent. :p

CJD2112
Oct 11, 2007, 02:01 AM
Would Apple be pulling features from betas that are known to be in working order, to put back in for the final release? It would be a good way of controlling a tonne of screen shots of new features...

That thought occurred to me, that some features that Apple has already tested as working may pulled for later release. I was really hoping something would be tied into the "Answering Machine" in iChat and the iPhone. Who knows what, but that would be interesting if Apple is indeed still keeping things secret, which is one of the reasons I thought I'd post that comment. Any thoughts?

sunfast
Oct 11, 2007, 03:42 AM
Interesting article, makes me even more interested in Leopard. One question - the bit at the end of the article about conencting to servers - will I be able to connect to an FTP server through finder?

thefunkymunky
Oct 11, 2007, 06:16 AM
Some screenies from 9A559. Some things may have changed since this build. I posted these before but I couldn't find the thread.

http://img32.picoodle.com/img/img32/9/10/4/kraized/t_Picture2m_b4c405f.png (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/4/kraized/f_Picture2m_b4c405f.png&srv=img32)

http://img01.picoodle.com/img/img01/9/10/4/kraized/t_Picture3m_fbad621.png (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/4/kraized/f_Picture3m_fbad621.png&srv=img01)

http://img29.picoodle.com/img/img29/9/10/4/kraized/t_Picture4m_6dbd309.png (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/4/kraized/f_Picture4m_6dbd309.png&srv=img29)

http://img26.picoodle.com/img/img26/9/10/4/kraized/t_Picture5m_7b2a077.png (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/4/kraized/f_Picture5m_7b2a077.png&srv=img26)

http://img28.picoodle.com/img/img28/9/10/4/kraized/t_Picture6m_a4e8120.png (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/4/kraized/f_Picture6m_a4e8120.png&srv=img28)

http://img26.picoodle.com/img/img26/9/10/4/kraized/t_Picture7m_4cce502.png (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/4/kraized/f_Picture7m_4cce502.png&srv=img26)

http://img33.picoodle.com/img/img33/9/10/4/kraized/t_Picture8m_b1b5e6f.png (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/4/kraized/f_Picture8m_b1b5e6f.png&srv=img33)

http://img30.picoodle.com/img/img30/9/10/4/kraized/t_Picture9m_edaa1f4.png (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/4/kraized/f_Picture9m_edaa1f4.png&srv=img30)

http://img28.picoodle.com/img/img28/9/10/4/kraized/t_Picture10m_f1a6a7d.png (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/4/kraized/f_Picture10m_f1a6a7d.png&srv=img28)

http://img03.picoodle.com/img/img03/9/10/4/kraized/t_Picture11m_e2e1b4c.png (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/4/kraized/f_Picture11m_e2e1b4c.png&srv=img03)

I don't like the non-rounded corners on the menu bar. It doesn't look right especially since all app windows and the finder windows have rounded corners.

The Front Row transition is just a plain boring fade to black now. Not like the desktop zoom we currently have in Tiger :( WTF?

Stacks is cool. But the font used is wrong, it looks like Arial and is not the standard system font.

The damn calculator widget still has the corrupt skin. This has been the same since the launch of Tiger. :(

Cover flow is nice but I think its overkill for the Finder. Its a neat addition to iTunes but I just find it cumbersome in Finder windows.

Full screen windows look horrible against the 3D Dock.

The shadows behind the Dock icons look wrong, especially against lighter backgrounds.

The iCal dynamic date update only happens to the Dock icon and not the app icon.

The Dock looks pants on the sides of the screen and also you cannot configure how to view a Stack while the Dock is on the side. It always defaults to "Grid" mode and the "View as" option is not available. :(

The icons in the Stack menu when viewed as a fan have jaggy edges and are not anti-aliased.

The Dock icon reflections are misplaced when the Dock is a smaller size than the default. The reflections appear underneath the icon.:confused:

The Aqua scrollbars and buttons etc need to go. The don't fit at all with the new unified theme and look out of place.

MrCrowbar
Oct 11, 2007, 06:16 AM
My thoughts exactly. Do all the icons spill off the shelf and end up in a Pile?

Yes. If you put the dock on the left side of the screen, the icons fall down and build a messy pile on the lower left corner of your screen.

Nah, just kidding. It looks the same on the side as it does on the bottom.

thefunkymunky
Oct 11, 2007, 06:23 AM
Nah, just kidding. It looks the same on the side as it does on the bottom.

Actually it doesn't.;)

Evangelion
Oct 11, 2007, 06:42 AM
Nope, I can't! :p But a little common sense tells me that a "high priority bug" is, at the least, something that Apple won't allow in to Gold Master. And to have 11 such bugs at this point in the process worries me.

11 such bugs is not really that many. Even though their effects might be serious or obvious (hence, "critical") they might still be easy to fix. I wouldn't be that worried.

Evangelion
Oct 11, 2007, 07:38 AM
Umm you do realize that you can buy something without installing it right?

Since you hate everything Apple does, why are you giving them your money?

And at what point did I EVER claim to be an authority? Its called an opinion.

Well, your opinions are like a broken record.

But I'm sorry Leopard feels like a rush job.

What exactly makes you feel that it's rushed? Have you used the betas? People who have used them have said that the OS feels very very solid.

When you slash features there IS a reason.

What features have been "slashed"?

thefunkymunky
Oct 11, 2007, 08:17 AM
What features have been "slashed"?

Safari's anti-phishing features are nowhere to be seen in the last seeded build (9A559). Apple even removed the information from the website.

Safari should have this IMHO considering its on Windows now and as every other major browser has anti-phishing.

psychofreak
Oct 11, 2007, 08:21 AM
Safari's anti-phishing features are nowhere to be seen in the last seeded build (9A559). Apple even removed the information from the website.

Safari should have this IMHO considering its on Windows now and as every other major browser has anti-phishing.

Safari 3 beta on Tiger is missing a few features...I would like to know if they're in the latest build:

"Scale to fit" is no longer an option on images

There should be a keyboard-shortcut for 'Merge all windows'

elppa
Oct 11, 2007, 08:57 AM
Stacks is cool. But the font used is wrong, it looks like Arial and is not the standard system font.

It'll more than likely be Helvetica (Helvetica Neue?). The idea of Apple using Arial in their OS is mildly amusing, due to the history of the typeface. Search for Helvetica vs Arial to get the idea.

Helvetica is used to good effect on iPhone, so we may see it replace Lucida Grande as the system font on Mac OS X sometime soon anyway.

I'm not at all surprised the iCal icon only updates in the doc, as it would require a lot of work to get Finder icons to update.

Apple appears to like the calculator skin, so much so they use it on their online store as a graphic, so I'm not surprised it is here to stay. If you think it is bad, look at any calculator for OS 9 or earlier.

Does it do negative numbers now? Because according to my calculator (10.4.10) :

-2 + = ERROR

I will miss the Front Row transition, especially holding down the shift key to slow it down.

Nichod
Oct 11, 2007, 09:03 AM
I have to admit Leopard does look nice. Not to sure on the default background. But I've seen how nice it looks with others, so no big deal. Hopefully I'll have a Mac and give Leopard a try soon.

Nichod
Oct 11, 2007, 09:04 AM
Some screenies from 9A559. Some things may have changed since this build. I posted these before but I couldn't find the thread.

http://img32.picoodle.com/img/img32/9/10/4/kraized/t_Picture2m_b4c405f.png (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/4/kraized/f_Picture2m_b4c405f.png&srv=img32)


I don't like the non-rounded corners on the menu bar. It doesn't look right especially since all app windows and the finder windows have rounded corners.

The Front Row transition is just a plain boring fade to black now. Not like the desktop zoom we currently have in Tiger :( WTF?

Stacks is cool. But the font used is wrong, it looks like Arial and is not the standard system font.

The damn calculator widget still has the corrupt skin. This has been the same since the launch of Tiger. :(

Cover flow is nice but I think its overkill for the Finder. Its a neat addition to iTunes but I just find it cumbersome in Finder windows.

Full screen windows look horrible against the 3D Dock.

The shadows behind the Dock icons look wrong, especially against lighter backgrounds.

The iCal dynamic date update only happens to the Dock icon and not the app icon.

The Dock looks pants on the sides of the screen and also you cannot configure how to view a Stack while the Dock is on the side. It always defaults to "Grid" mode and the "View as" option is not available. :(

The icons in the Stack menu when viewed as a fan have jaggy edges and are not anti-aliased.

The Dock icon reflections are misplaced when the Dock is a smaller size than the default. The reflections appear underneath the icon.:confused:

The Aqua scrollbars and buttons etc need to go. The don't fit at all with the new unified theme and look out of place.

Thanks for all the screenshots. Much appreciated.

hayesk
Oct 11, 2007, 09:38 AM
Or "Apple" + TAB

We're on a Mac!

That's right - we're not on an Apple II. The correct term for that key is the Command key. It may have had an Apple on it, but on the Mac platform, it was never the "Apple" key.

henjin
Oct 11, 2007, 09:59 AM
Take a bong hit and lighten up, dude. If Windoze is that great, feel free to switch back.

I did not say XP is wonderful, just said it was faster, snappy... get it?

I guess Leopard will have an on and off switch re shadows, glass table effects... for those of us who need After effects and FinalCut to have full use of CPU/GPU......

Just a fact all those childish effects are GPU heavy. Anyone who seriously wants to use a computer from gaming to video knows all the effects will weigh on the hardware.

With Windows you can turn it all off. Horrible and ugly either way but it does make for a snappy experience.

CPU and GPU will be working hard to make it all spin..you want to fry eggs on your hardware?

Fine I want more.

Here you need the Bong more than I do. Jobs sending you some Kool Aid too.

sedarby
Oct 11, 2007, 10:04 AM
Well there 'ya go! The voice of authority has spoken. :rolleyes:

So let me understand this, you're going to "buy it the day it comes out" but there is "no way in hell you will install it before 10.5.1." Hmmm.......so which is it? :rolleyes:

He could buy it with the rest of us then take it home and stare at the pretty box! Personally, I'll be buying a new computer with it preinstalled. Can't wait, but then that is all I can do at this point. ;)

GenesisST
Oct 11, 2007, 10:39 AM
No worries, keep spelling it MAC, it helps to determine who are the true Mac users and the Mac switchers who bought the Mac to use for Windows as well.

Shouldn't you be glad that people are switching, like myself? So there is the Mac user and the Aryan Mac user? Nice, real nice, Adolf...

jakesteramma
Oct 11, 2007, 10:41 AM
That's because Google is not case sensitive. MAC stands for Media Access Control, it's for the MAC address. Also the truck and the makeup company.
That's why Apple spells it Mac. But only the Windows switchers seem to have a problem spelling it correctly but never seem to spell windows the way I just did.
No worries, keep spelling it MAC, it helps to determine who are the true Mac users and the Mac switchers who bought the Mac to use for Windows as well.

You just made me realize that jerk-offs (euphamism) can use Mac's too. Any person with half a brain can determine the proper meaning of the of the word "MAC" based upon the context in which it is used despite it's spelling. Ploepe can eevn raed wdros prpolery eevn wehn the ltetres are msesed up. Thus showing the human brain's amazing ability to figure things out.

How about those banana's?

So take your Layer 2 Hexadecimal Address, your Iphone, your elitist, egotistical, superior attidude and go sit in the corner until you realize that categorizing and judging people based upon very little info is rude and simply mean.

Oh, and by the way, a person who can be efficient and understand ALL Operating Systems despite their shortcomings is a much more valuable person and employee.

blackcrayon
Oct 11, 2007, 10:48 AM
That's right - we're not on an Apple II. The correct term for that key is the Command key. It may have had an Apple on it, but on the Mac platform, it was never the "Apple" key.

Yeah, that was a bad idea, I wonder whose it was.

It's the only key on the keyboard that is called something other than what is represented on the key :)

(Try telling a non-savvy Mac user to press "command-F" over the phone.. "HUH?!")

I wonder why thy don't write "Command" on the key, they can certainly fit "alt option" on the same key ;)

xUKHCx
Oct 11, 2007, 10:52 AM
Yeah, that was a bad idea, I wonder whose it was.

It's the only key on the keyboard that is called something other than what is represented on the key :)

(Try telling a non-savvy Mac user to press "command-F" over the phone.. "HUH?!")

I wonder why thy don't write "Command" on the key, they can certainly fit "alt option" on the same key ;)

The new apple keyboards have command written on them.

psychofreak
Oct 11, 2007, 10:54 AM
The new apple keyboards have command written on them.The beginning of the end....

thefunkymunky
Oct 11, 2007, 11:02 AM
That's because Google is not case sensitive. MAC stands for Media Access Control, it's for the MAC address.

Can also stand for Migration Authorisation Code.:rolleyes:

Nick012
Oct 11, 2007, 11:18 AM
I'm gonna miss having a dock on the side. I've only ever had it there and I'm worried it'll look awful. I don't wanna put it on the bottom because on a macbook vertical screen space is more important than horizontal. I might just get rid of the dock and use quicksilver exclusively (a la Merlin Mann) although it'll be a shame to lose such an iconic OSX feature.

That article was apalling in my opinion. It was clearly written by some Mac fanboy who sees everything that comes out of Cupertino as gospel and hates everything that Redmond spews out. I only use Macs since I switched and I really enjoy the experience. However, the idea that it was hard to see what was running on the XP taskbar is a joke. I found it easier than I found OSX at first (because you can close a window but still have it on the menu bar). The writer was right about taskbar grouping in XP though - retarded.

Still looking forward to leopard though! :)

P.S. I call it the apple key aswell. I say things like 'Apple + C' instead of 'Commnd + C'. I know its called the command key but I'm too used to saying Apple. AND it has an  on it.

yetanotherdave
Oct 11, 2007, 11:35 AM
Shouldn't you be glad that people are switching, like myself? So there is the Mac user and the Aryan Mac user? Nice, real nice, Adolf...

Is invoking Godwin's law allowed on these forums?

digitalbiker
Oct 11, 2007, 11:40 AM
I'm gonna miss having a dock on the side. I've only ever had it there and I'm worried it'll look awful. I don't wanna put it on the bottom because on a macbook vertical screen space is more important than horizontal. I might just get rid of the dock and use quicksilver exclusively (a la Merlin Mann) although it'll be a shame to lose such an iconic OSX feature.

That article was apalling in my opinion. It was clearly written by some Mac fanboy who sees everything that comes out of Cupertino as gospel and hates everything that Redmond spews out. I only use Macs since I switched and I really enjoy the experience. However, the idea that it was hard to see what was running on the XP taskbar is a joke. I found it easier than I found OSX at first (because you can close a window but still have it on the menu bar). The writer was right about taskbar grouping in XP though - retarded.

Still looking forward to leopard though! :)

P.S. I call it the apple key aswell. I say things like 'Apple + C' instead of 'Commnd + C'. I know its called the command key but I'm too used to saying Apple. AND it has an ? on it.

You can still put the dock on the side. It may not look it's best on the side but it still is functionally the same.

I would think function should win over aesthetics. If you need the dock to be on the side for an improved work environment who really cares if the icons and reflections don't look as good as when they are placed at the bottom of the screen.

You will want to use the dock. It is just too handy. I love QuickSilver but the new stacks and other funcionality in the dock make it way too useful to just turn off.

fewgraphik
Oct 11, 2007, 11:45 AM
I'm currently using Leopard (559) for 2 weeks now

Great, great system.

17 seconds boot from touching the start button to the finder.

shut down in 5 seconds !

The whole system is incredibly snappy...

1 - the possiblity to organise the left bar within every application dialog window >> wonderful
2 - Y preview every document from everywhere
3 - coverflow >> monster icons...
4 - live FX during ichat conferences >> :)
5 - when you copy a file with the option key, the system simply put 1, 2, 3 at the end of the copied file (not "copy") >> extremely practical !
etc... etc...

the list is very very long, even if it's not the master gold !

Leopard is 100 years ahead from phoney Vista !

Detlev
Oct 11, 2007, 11:53 AM
That's right - we're not on an Apple II. The correct term for that key is the Command key. It may have had an Apple on it, but on the Mac platform, it was never the "Apple" key.

OMGosh, why does this keep coming up? Yes, it is the "Command Key" BUT users and support staff have used (if not presently) the term "Apple key" for years. Do you really think that every person who is new to a Mac knows the "correct" term or they really want to know it? There is a flippin apple on the key. It's a flippin "Apple Key" if they want it to be. Get over yourselves!

SiliconAddict
Oct 11, 2007, 11:54 AM
Since you hate everything Apple does, why are you giving them your money?



Well, your opinions are like a broken record.



What exactly makes you feel that it's rushed? Have you used the betas? People who have used them have said that the OS feels very very solid.



What features have been "slashed"?

You're kidding right? Apparently the fanbois haven't been paying attention. First we have fast switching from Windows to OS X via the hibernate functions on each OS. That was axed.
As was mentioned before features in Safari have gone missing.
One of the biggest features being touted by Apple since last year was a resolution independent interface. That went poof. Those are off the top of my head. Google search the rest.
Iím not bitching about Leopard. Iím bitching about OS X in general. The snailís pace they are moving their OS forward smack of them not having any idea where to go next. Yes they are doing some interesting under the hood work, which is a godsend now that multi-core is everywhere. However from a UI standpoint they have done virtually NOTHING with the OS since 10.2. Small tweaks to be sure, but hardly anything revolutionary. And thatís the rub of it. 7 years of OS X. About 4 of which was dedicated to getting the damn OS stable and fast. Donít kid yourself until 10.3 OS X was a dog and you guys know it. Hell even now network shares on OS X are a dang joke. I can beach ball the crap out of Finder on Tiger.
10.3-10.5 has given Apple a chance to do more then speed up the OS and what have they done with that chance? Desktop sharing? Consolidated color scheme? Quick Look? Time Machine? Spaces?!?! Spotlight? Expose? Good features. Heck handy features. Hardly anything revolutionary.
Apple has basically sat on their fat butt the last few years. My money is on the damn iPhone taking up their resources. So we are stuck with Leopard. A nice evolutionary OS. Nothing that screams ďOMG! The future of OS X!Ē
Apple is suppose to be the UI god. Are we to believe that what is in OS X is the pinnacle of the graphical user interface? I think not, and if not when the heck are they going to push the UI forward?
Apple has gotten complacent, and I have no issues calling them on it.

drugs!
Oct 11, 2007, 12:12 PM
I am sure we might have that option. But I love how it looks! I have never been more excited about an operating system. I think this OS will be free of bugs when it arrives.

dont hold your breath

johnmcboston
Oct 11, 2007, 12:43 PM
Wow. Came here to make a comment and ended up in the middle of a cat fight. :)

After reading the AI bit - am I the only one unimpressed with Stacks? Or am I missing something. Right now I can right click on a folder and get a pop up of the contents, and I can click on or type to get what I want.

Stacks look like the same thing, but with a left click and a 'leaning tower' stack. Is this just a prettier way of doing what I already do??

siren77
Oct 11, 2007, 12:49 PM
I can't say much, but it runs on a Macbook just fine. The GMA950 really isn't that bad, people.

"just fine" is ok...but will it still be running "just fine" when you have many applications running? dashboard itself takes up a lot of RAM, and now with the new dock as well as spaces, how much can the 950 handle? has anyone tried pushing leopard to its limit, graphics-wise? (only for the case of a macbook)

Peace
Oct 11, 2007, 12:52 PM
Wow. Came here to make a comment and ended up in the middle of a cat fight. :)

After reading the AI bit - am I the only one unimpressed with Stacks? Or am I missing something. Right now I can right click on a folder and get a pop up of the contents, and I can click on or type to get what I want.

Stacks look like the same thing, but with a left click and a 'leaning tower' stack. Is this just a prettier way of doing what I already do??

If you think this is the same as what you do then yes.

MagnusVonMagnum
Oct 11, 2007, 01:09 PM
I'm sure you wrote all of that just to ruffle feathers and get people to quote you and I will.
Dude get yourself a plain old Thinkpad and Windows 98 and you're all set. Obviously you prefer to live a boring computing life and this set up will do you well.


I think those comments are uncalled for. I don't believe asking Apple to offer some customization options is a bad idea at all. Put it in System Preferences and have buttons to turn various eye candy features on/off, adjust the system bar the way you want it, turn the dock back into the old model or whatever. I don't understand why so many mAc uSeRs get so upset when someone wants to do something differently. Do we all have to be like the Borg? One of the things I like about Linux is all the options it has to customize it's appearance. It needs a unified layer underneath pretty badly, but the eye candy stuff is just appearances. I would go as far as to say Apple should bring back THEMING as a preference editor. Honestly, I'm half surprised Apple even lets you change the background image the way they seem to force certain things on their users. It would at least be nice to be able to choose between Aqua and the new steely look. They already have the Aqua theme made.



Also you need to understand that the world lives on computers for everything. We no longer need them just to do exciting things like spreadsheets and corporate presentations with charts, woo hoo:rolleyes:


I think you need to understand that not everyone wants their Mac to look like YOUR Mac and some people appreciate simplicity over flash (Personally I like a bit of eye candy, but the user in question does not and I can appreciate that).


News flash, computers are a big part of our entertainment lives, we use them more than TV or telephones so graphics and a beautiful OS play big so wake up or go back to Windows 98, I think the latter works best for you. :p


I think the patronizing tone is out of line. Nobody needs to go back to Windows98 just because you think everyone should just accept default settings on everything. I mean there are people out there that PREFER the CLI/Shell environment (especially on Linux/Unix platforms...ironically Leopard is now official UNIX... ha ha). You probably think it looks boring as all heck, but the shell is a VERY powerful thing if you really know how to use it.


P.S You talk about Mac OS X being a slow OS, tried Vista lately???

I think he's simply saying it could be a LOT snappier if you could turn unnecessary eye candy off. Sometimes performance is more desirable than watching globes spin, penguins dance and reflections give you vertigo. Some people actually find such things cheesy. It's certainly not what you'd want in a lot of 'boring' business environment jobs. It wouldn't be hard for Apple to support turning options OFF. In fact, I think it would be quite easy. They have a nice System Preference editor pane that could use a new applet or two.

MagnusVonMagnum
Oct 11, 2007, 01:26 PM
You're kidding right? Apparently the fanbois haven't been paying attention. First we have fast switching from Windows to OS X via the hibernate functions on each OS. That was axed.


Given how buggy Vista is, it's not hard to imagine it being difficult to get it to play nice with OSX so I wouldn't necessarily place the blame on Apple there. It could show up in an update at some point.


As was mentioned before features in Safari have gone missing.


I have been very disappointed by the fact there have been no real updates (other than the quick bug fixes) to Safari since the 'beta' was released. It broke things like Yahoo Messenger scrolling (such as it is) and overall seems vastly inferior to me than using Safari 2.x, which is updated regularly, extremely customizable and the plugin options are unbelievable. I'd prefer Apple concentrate on the OS than worry about trying to enter the browser market. They appear to be spread thin enough as it is with iPhone. I'm also afraid the lack of update releases may mean that Tiger support is dropped from further Safari updates altogether (whereas even 10.2 is supported still by Firefox 2.x). The browser shouldn't be tied to the OS like that, IMO. It reminds me too much of Microsoft. Meanwhile, XP gets Safari and it dates much older than Tiger.


One of the biggest features being touted by Apple since last year was a resolution independent interface. That went poof. Those are off the top of my head. Google search the rest.


That's disappointing to hear (first time I noticed anyone say it's NOT in Leopard). I thought that was going to make all the difference when using LCD screens which need to run at native resolution to look their best. I still prefer CRTs (true blacks, true resolution switching, etc.), but they're getting harder and harder to find, although used ones are quite cheap.

I would have liked to see rotating LCDs with full OSX support for the vertical rotation mode (Windows has some kludges for such things, but the Mac seems limited to things like Mame arcade emulation for such uses). The point there is if Apple's own monitors were designed to rotate, it might actually get some real application support whereas hacks are just hacks.

Peace
Oct 11, 2007, 01:29 PM
I would have liked to see rotating LCDs with full OSX support for the vertical rotation mode (Windows has some kludges for such things, but the Mac seems limited to things like Mame arcade emulation for such uses). The point there is if Apple's own monitors were designed to rotate, it might actually get some real application support whereas hacks are just hacks.

You can rotate monitors and have OSX change to that view.

CJD2112
Oct 11, 2007, 01:32 PM
I think those comments are uncalled for. I don't believe asking Apple to offer some customization options is a bad idea at all. Put it in System Preferences and have buttons to turn various eye candy features on/off, adjust the system bar the way you want it, turn the dock back into the old model or whatever. I don't understand why so many mAc uSeRs get so upset when someone wants to do something differently. Do we all have to be like the Borg? One of the things I like about Linux is all the options it has to customize it's appearance. It needs a unified layer underneath pretty badly, but the eye candy stuff is just appearances. I would go as far as to say Apple should bring back THEMING as a preference editor. Honestly, I'm half surprised Apple even lets you change the background image the way they seem to force certain things on their users. It would at least be nice to be able to choose between Aqua and the new steely look. They already have the Aqua theme made.

I've been a Mac user for years now, and still use Windows for non-Mac applications, but I have to agree with this comment. A lot of people have agreed with it as well, since I have made a similar comment regarding GUI customization in Leopard. Mostly it was in regards to comments about the new Menu Bar transparency and Dock since some thought they were unattractive. I thought it would make a lot of sense for Apple to implement simple tweaks for each user to adjust certain graphical interfaces, like the opacity/transparency of the menu bar, or dock features, or even the color scheme of the finder windows (and I don't mean just the background color, but the actual window frame color from gray to something else if desired), all of which are already available in Windows XP and Vista in "Themes" (not a great Windows feature, but I'm sure Apple can do a much better job in implementing such a tool within OS X 10.5).

I don't understand the reasoning. Someone suggested that Jobs wants every Mac to look and feel the same: crisp, clean, and pretty. I suppose this gives a uniform feel to the OS so everyone gets the right Mac experience. While that is great, the controlling aspect seems a bit much, and I've always believed Apple wants people to "Think Different", so why not allow graphical customization for every user? That way, if someone doesn't like the Menu Bar transparency, they can alter it, and everyone's happy. It'd surely appeal to more people and sell more Macs, as a lot of people can be stubborn and have their likes and dislikes. Simple right. :)

Detlev
Oct 11, 2007, 01:40 PM
You're kidding right? Apparently the fanbois haven't been paying attention. First we have fast switching from Windows to OS X via the hibernate functions on each OS. That was axed.
As was mentioned before features in Safari have gone missing.
One of the biggest features being touted by Apple since last year was a resolution independent interface. That went poof. Those are off the top of my head. Google search the rest.
Iím not bitching about Leopard. Iím bitching about OS X in general. The snailís pace they are moving their OS forward smack of them not having any idea where to go next. Yes they are doing some interesting under the hood work, which is a godsend now that multi-core is everywhere. However from a UI standpoint they have done virtually NOTHING with the OS since 10.2. Small tweaks to be sure, but hardly anything revolutionary. And thatís the rub of it. 7 years of OS X. About 4 of which was dedicated to getting the damn OS stable and fast. Donít kid yourself until 10.3 OS X was a dog and you guys know it. Hell even now network shares on OS X are a dang joke. I can beach ball the crap out of Finder on Tiger.
10.3-10.5 has given Apple a chance to do more then speed up the OS and what have they done with that chance? Desktop sharing? Consolidated color scheme? Quick Look? Time Machine? Spaces?!?! Spotlight? Expose? Good features. Heck handy features. Hardly anything revolutionary.
Apple has basically sat on their fat butt the last few years. My money is on the damn iPhone taking up their resources. So we are stuck with Leopard. A nice evolutionary OS. Nothing that screams ďOMG! The future of OS X!Ē
Apple is suppose to be the UI god. Are we to believe that what is in OS X is the pinnacle of the graphical user interface? I think not, and if not when the heck are they going to push the UI forward?
Apple has gotten complacent, and I have no issues calling them on it.

No argument there. A little over the top ( UI god?) but the gist is IMHO spot on.

Stridder44
Oct 11, 2007, 01:53 PM
I do not like all these reflections in cover flow, finder, and now the dock? I hope I can turn the reflection off.


You're right. We should just stick to a solid beige color with no effects and very limited attractiveness. We can call it Linux.


If anything they need to work on the UI more. It looks pretty much the same since 10.2.

siren77
Oct 11, 2007, 01:55 PM
I would go as far as to say Apple should bring back THEMING as a preference editor. Honestly, I'm half surprised Apple even lets you change the background image the way they seem to force certain things on their users. It would at least be nice to be able to choose between Aqua and the new steely look. They already have the Aqua theme made.


I'm a very recent switcher. When I first started using OS X couple of months ago, I was amazed by its simplicity, while giving amazing functionality and productivity. But one thing I didn't understand was, with so much focus on UI, why was there such rigidity when it came to personalizing it (mainly colors, I really hate the grey theme). We shouldn't have to depend on 3rd-party apps for that, and I was really hoping Leopard would change that. I know it's a very minor issue for most people, but it still surprises me.

Eraserhead
Oct 11, 2007, 02:11 PM
You can rotate monitors and have OSX change to that view.

You can definitely use a rotated monitor under OS X, I've personally done it with a Dell Monitor.

With regards to the hibernate feature, Windows XP doesn't generally hibernate successfully time after time, so its not that useful, especially given that the OS loads in about 30 seconds anyway.

On the phishing filter though SiliconAddict is right.

johnmcboston
Oct 11, 2007, 02:25 PM
If you think this is the same as what you do then yes.

Yah, looks pretty much the same. Just a new features I won't be doing cartwheels over...

I see folders in your thumbnail. I assume they are still spring-loaded in leopard?

LukeAP88
Oct 11, 2007, 02:30 PM
I am sort-of a mac noobie, but I was wondering how long it would take apple to come out with 10.5.1. If I buy Leopard when it comes out, will 10.5.1 be a simple software update or will I miss out on it entirely unless I buy the new version?

jackc
Oct 11, 2007, 02:33 PM
I am sort-of a mac noobie, but I was wondering how long it would take apple to come out with 10.5.1. If I buy Leopard when it comes out, will 10.5.1 be a simple software update or will I miss out on it entirely unless I buy the new version?

All of those updates will be free up until 10.6

beginnersview
Oct 11, 2007, 04:25 PM
I do not like all these reflections in cover flow, finder, and now the dock? I hope I can turn the reflection off.

I agree about the reflections bit -- I mean (IMO) isn't the dock supposed to be an application and data ACCESS tool? Not an art deco space taker-upper.

Yes, I love using the Dock, use it all the time -- along with DragThing.
But, I have my Dock sized relatively small, to take away LESS screen space.
Now it looks like Leopard Dock intentionally steals more screen space for no useful purpose. (Just another case where some artsy person/committee has decided that lots of eye-candy flash is better for me than having more useable workspace...)

So I too hope there is a way to turn off the reflection table surface bit.

Now the stacks feature of the new dock looks useful.

rollercoasternd
Oct 11, 2007, 08:27 PM
I'm not sure if anyone really cares about this but I opened the Quicktime video that demonstrates the new dock, and I was delightfully surprised that I recognized the background music as my favorite artist ever, Imogen Heap, the song was Goodnight and Go, its a really great song, even better when she is singing it but its great even when its just her melody. You all should give her a listen if you havn't, here it is if you are interested. iTunes Store Link (http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playlistId=83486513&s=143441&i=83486032) :D

Iroganai
Oct 11, 2007, 08:33 PM
Mostly off topic, I found AppleInsider's description of NeXT Dock,
the icons of running apps were tagged with an ellipsis to differentiate them (as is the Digital Librarian icon, fourth from the top, in the desktop image below)
is opposite of what was the case. As the screenshot there shows, Digital Librarian is not running !

Back then, ellipsis marks are for non-running apps.
You can check this by googling screenshots of NeXTSTEP, or NeXT documentation here. (http://www.channelu.com/NeXT/NeXTStep/3.3/nd/UserInterface/01_VisualGuide/VisualGuide.htmld/)

HLdan
Oct 11, 2007, 08:50 PM
Shouldn't you be glad that people are switching, like myself? So there is the Mac user and the Aryan Mac user? Nice, real nice, Adolf...

Since you asked, it truly doesn't matter. I don't know the people personally but it's always nice to meet a new Mac user or read about people excited about their new Mac purchase but since you asked, it really doesn't matter. Many of the people that are so-called switching aren't really switching at all. Many of them are buying the Macintosh and calling it Apple hardware only (dismissing the fact that it's really a Macintosh system) and installing Windows to run as a PC machine only. This switching thing doesn't matter, you are only a TRUE switcher to the Mac platform if you do it without the need to run Windows. I switched after Windows 98 and never used Windows anymore.

MagnusVonMagnum
Oct 11, 2007, 11:10 PM
I don't understand the reasoning. Someone suggested that Jobs wants every Mac to look and feel the same: crisp, clean, and pretty. I suppose this gives a uniform feel to the OS so everyone gets the right Mac experience. While that is great, the controlling aspect seems a bit much, and I've always believed Apple wants people to "Think Different", so why not allow graphical customization for every user? That way, if someone doesn't like the Menu Bar transparency, they can alter it, and everyone's happy. It'd surely appeal to more people and sell more Macs, as a lot of people can be stubborn and have their likes and dislikes. Simple right. :)

I think the keyword there is "control" given I've heard numerous times that Steve Jobs is a bit of a control freak, so-to-speak. I just don't think he should decide exactly how my Mac's desktop looks. He can pick the default, but I should be free to modify things from there. With iPhone, it gets even more problematic since you can't add more apps yourself without jailbreaking the phone.

Macs have a reputation for being for creative people...well... creative people tend to NOT be robots and want their computer to look like everyone else's so it bugs me that Macs are by FAR the LEAST friendly to theming. Be creative, but not on your computer desktop? Honestly, it smacks more of coming across like Apple thinks we're too stupid to figure out how to modify settings so they just decided to not give them so we can't screw it up or something. How about a nice big red RESET TO DEFAULTS switch then? ;)

MagnusVonMagnum
Oct 11, 2007, 11:14 PM
You're right. We should just stick to a solid beige color with no effects and very limited attractiveness. We can call it Linux.


Have you actually looked at Linux options? It's true there are some terrible themes and window managers for Linux, but there's also some pretty snazzy ones that make Macs look a little yesterday. Take a look at XGL/Beryl and tell me how limited Linux's attractiveness is. You can get Aqua themes for Linux, but trying to get some of the themes made for Linux onto a Mac is a bit more problematic.

MagnusVonMagnum
Oct 11, 2007, 11:19 PM
I'm a very recent switcher. When I first started using OS X couple of months ago, I was amazed by its simplicity, while giving amazing functionality and productivity. But one thing I didn't understand was, with so much focus on UI, why was there such rigidity when it came to personalizing it (mainly colors, I really hate the grey theme). We shouldn't have to depend on 3rd-party apps for that, and I was really hoping Leopard would change that. I know it's a very minor issue for most people, but it still surprises me.

I really think on some level Steve Jobs thinks he knows what's best for all Mac users and so our desktops should look like HIS desktop. Given the Mac is a sort of anti-clone, I find it a little ironic that it's the Mac that has the "clone look" to it.

On the other hand, I never liked Macs at all until OSX came out (I was an Amiga guy in the late '80s through the '90s and finally begrudgingly got a PC where ironically, I stopped looking at the GUI/OS and got back to looking at SOFTWARE like I did on the C64. True, I hate Windows for a lot of reasons, but the fact it is so boring means I just get on with what I'm actually doing. When I load up Linux, I just want to start customizing the heck out of it, which is fun, but my productivity drops to nothing. So I guess from that standpoint, more theming on the Mac would mean more wasting time playing with the OS itself instead of applications for it. Even so, asking for a switch to turn off reflections or translucency isn't asking for much, IMO.

BKKbill
Oct 12, 2007, 03:46 AM
The beginning of the end....

Now you really have me worried. The beginning of the end.... of what.

Neutral Gamer
Oct 12, 2007, 10:13 AM
By the way, here's a pic of the Dock on the right. I don't find it quite so horrible, particularly since I keep it hidden, but I'd prefer it without the fancy visual effects

http://www.rogueamoeba.com/utm/posts/Thoughts/sidedock-2007-08-29-16-00

Thanks for the picture. Yuck! That looks absolutely horrible. There's no way I'm gonna set the dock to the left or right anymore in Leopard - it just looks completely wrong! :eek:

HLdan
Oct 12, 2007, 10:39 AM
Have you actually looked at Linux options? It's true there are some terrible themes and window managers for Linux, but there's also some pretty snazzy ones that make Macs look a little yesterday. Take a look at XGL/Beryl and tell me how limited Linux's attractiveness is. You can get Aqua themes for Linux, but trying to get some of the themes made for Linux onto a Mac is a bit more problematic.

Using Linux because it has more customizable themes isn't good reason enough to go that direction. This is one time where you can actually say that Macs have more software. Linux is not a viable solution for someone that needs to move on from Windows, the Macintosh is. People that are used to using the "popular" software won't find it in Linux and using the emulation ideas such as Wine is great but you have to do it for so many apps. Linux is fine for a second computer to Windows but not instead of the Macintosh.

HLdan
Oct 12, 2007, 10:43 AM
I think the keyword there is "control" given I've heard numerous times that Steve Jobs is a bit of a control freak, so-to-speak. I just don't think he should decide exactly how my Mac's desktop looks. He can pick the default, but I should be free to modify things from there. With iPhone, it gets even more problematic since you can't add more apps yourself without jailbreaking the phone.

Macs have a reputation for being for creative people...well... creative people tend to NOT be robots and want their computer to look like everyone else's so it bugs me that Macs are by FAR the LEAST friendly to theming. Be creative, but not on your computer desktop? Honestly, it smacks more of coming across like Apple thinks we're too stupid to figure out how to modify settings so they just decided to not give them so we can't screw it up or something. How about a nice big red RESET TO DEFAULTS switch then? ;)

This is one area I totally agree with. I have a Mac service business and it's weird to go to a client's home and see their Macs look like mine at home. I don't care for the fact the Apple has only allowed the user to change only the color of the traffic lights and scroll bars and even this has only one color change option.
Window UI should be colorized by the user and even the current menu bar, the user should have the option to change the color of it.
I'm hoping but I don't see Apple allowing much customization in Leopard either.:(

metty
Oct 22, 2007, 07:01 PM
Thanks for the picture. Yuck! That looks absolutely horrible. There's no way I'm gonna set the dock to the left or right anymore in Leopard - it just looks completely wrong! :eek:

The dock will not look like this on the side.

tennez
Oct 22, 2007, 07:09 PM
I want my leopard now!!

messedkid
Oct 23, 2007, 01:23 AM
The dock will not look like this on the side.

I know I'll see by friday, but how do you know?

It does look pretty hideous on the side, but luckily I've never liked the Tiger dock on the side either.

But some of the guys comments on that page are just ignorant, especially about the wallpaper and window reflecting in the docks shiny surface. No **** it doesn't help you with anything...it just looks good!:rolleyes:

mdriftmeyer
Oct 23, 2007, 01:51 AM
Mostly off topic, I found AppleInsider's description of NeXT Dock,

is opposite of what was the case. As the screenshot there shows, Digital Librarian is not running !

Back then, ellipsis marks are for non-running apps.
You can check this by googling screenshots of NeXTSTEP, or NeXT documentation here. (http://www.channelu.com/NeXT/NeXTStep/3.3/nd/UserInterface/01_VisualGuide/VisualGuide.htmld/)

That might have been my misspeak. And yes, the no dots meant the app(s) were active.

The big argument for or against the dots was the fact that three dots signified inactivity and not dots signified activity. UI people in Apple felt no indicator didn't help convey an application was running so they broke the NeXT UI paradigm and butchered much more.

Now in OS X they switched from no dots inactive and one large glowing dot as active.

I was too busy trying to make the point that the doc then was meant more to be a quick access point between applications and how to hide/reveal other app windows in conjunction or separate from each other.

numlock
Oct 23, 2007, 07:17 AM
I just thought of how extremely handy stacks will be when you folders set up for Foldershare for instance or shared dropbox folders on a network.

Nothing groundbreaking but very useful

d_saum
Oct 23, 2007, 07:56 PM
Since you asked, it truly doesn't matter. I don't know the people personally but it's always nice to meet a new Mac user or read about people excited about their new Mac purchase but since you asked, it really doesn't matter. Many of the people that are so-called switching aren't really switching at all. Many of them are buying the Macintosh and calling it Apple hardware only (dismissing the fact that it's really a Macintosh system) and installing Windows to run as a PC machine only. This switching thing doesn't matter, you are only a TRUE switcher to the Mac platform if you do it without the need to run Windows. I switched after Windows 98 and never used Windows anymore.

Geez dude... Lighten up.


Im just happy about all the new Mac/MAC/mac/MACK ( I dont care HOW you spell it) users!!! Welcome to light side of the force!!! May the :apple: be with you.

Ariez
Oct 23, 2007, 11:05 PM
I honestly think the improvement on the dock is nice but unnecessary due to launch apps like QS.

psychofreak
Oct 23, 2007, 11:06 PM
I honestly think the improvement on the dock is nice but unnecessary due to launch apps like QS.

For me and you, yes, but not for many users...

celloman
Oct 23, 2007, 11:29 PM
uh oh. nice article but shown on an "old" macbook. implying no new macbook release very soon???? :(

martijn.s
Nov 14, 2007, 04:58 PM
I did not say XP is wonderful, just said it was faster, snappy... get it?

I guess Leopard will have an on and off switch re shadows, glass table effects... for those of us who need After effects and FinalCut to have full use of CPU/GPU......

Just a fact all those childish effects are GPU heavy. Anyone who seriously wants to use a computer from gaming to video knows all the effects will weigh on the hardware.

With Windows you can turn it all off. Horrible and ugly either way but it does make for a snappy experience.

CPU and GPU will be working hard to make it all spin..you want to fry eggs on your hardware?

Fine I want more.

Here you need the Bong more than I do. Jobs sending you some Kool Aid too.



the "3D" dock is a simple png file, it's not using any CPU, and no screen space if u turn hiding on.

stop lying, your ******** is all over the web.