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MacRumors
Oct 12, 2007, 12:49 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Apple had expected to declare their upcoming Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard Gold Master this week. "Gold Master" status is given the final shipping version of the software which is sent to duplicators for distribution.

Based on our sources, Apple had not quite reached that goal, but today released an internal "GM candidate build" which could represent the final version of Mac OS X Leopard, if no other issues are found.

Apple has been working against the clock to get Leopard duplicated and shipped for an October release. October 26th (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/04/mac-os-x-leopard-on-october-26th/) has been noted to be planned ship date, and Apple has already been training (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/09/mac-os-x-10-5-leopard-finalized/) support staff in anticipation of its release.



Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/12/mac-os-x-leopard-10-5-gm-candidate-build/)



Liamf555
Oct 12, 2007, 12:50 PM
at last:D

Eidorian
Oct 12, 2007, 12:50 PM
I thought were there at GM. Just a little longer now.

Naimfan
Oct 12, 2007, 12:50 PM
That's good news, although it seems like they are cutting it fairly close to be in stores on 10-26.

I agree with people who would rather see it late than buggy, though.

Bigsam411
Oct 12, 2007, 12:52 PM
Woohoo!!! Now all we need is an announcement of the day it will be in stores.

thecritix
Oct 12, 2007, 12:52 PM
seeems a bit too tight timewise to me, maybe they should just offer it for downloaddd? with an activation of some sort that can then make it work for release day :)

Multimedia
Oct 12, 2007, 12:53 PM
Maybe by the end of today PR will let us know?

jackc
Oct 12, 2007, 12:53 PM
How many of hours of sleep do you think the programmers are getting?

newappleboy
Oct 12, 2007, 12:54 PM
I agree with people who would rather see it late than buggy, though.

There's a difference between releasing a buggy version and a version that isn't almost perfect. These latest builds have all been reported as very stable, so I see no reason Apple shouldn't stick with their current planned release date and then work on 10.5.1 from this point forward and push it. Either way - Leopard is gonna be better from the get-go than Vista ever could've dreamed of being. Just bring it! :p

whenpaulsparks
Oct 12, 2007, 12:54 PM
great news! my credit card is ready!

FJ218700
Oct 12, 2007, 12:54 PM
Good, was hoping to change my sig today. Maybe by Monday for sure.

thecritix
Oct 12, 2007, 12:54 PM
How many of hours of sleep do you think the programmers are getting?

i bet they have hammocks by their desks.

matthewHUB
Oct 12, 2007, 12:57 PM
wouldn't be surprised to see this ship on the last day in october. Don't know where the 26th deadline came from.

jellomizer
Oct 12, 2007, 12:57 PM
Every time a Gold Candidate is rejected you burn it with some chemicals so out from the main HQ black smoke will appear. When you finally get a Gold Copy that will be finally you burn some papers so that white smokes appears.

GodzPeepz
Oct 12, 2007, 12:58 PM
Bring it baby!!

hamis92
Oct 12, 2007, 12:58 PM
I wonder when are we going to see new Apple front page... Does anyone remember how long before the Tiger release did Apple put the day counter on their site?

Wild-Bill
Oct 12, 2007, 12:58 PM
Every time a Gold Candidate is rejected you burn it with some chemicals so out from the main HQ black smoke will appear. When you finally get a Gold Copy that will be finally you burn some papers so that white smokes appears.

ROTFL. That was heavenly ;)

Roy Hobbs
Oct 12, 2007, 12:59 PM
wouldn't be surprised to see this ship on the last day in october. Don't know where the 26th deadline came from.

Not going to happen, the 31st is Halloween.
The 26th date is based on the fact that the last few OS releases have been the last Friday of the month.

Pixbae
Oct 12, 2007, 01:00 PM
I can't wait!!

But how long after its release date will it take to reach me in South America??

Dagless
Oct 12, 2007, 01:03 PM
I've got some kind of addiction with updating things, so I'd love to see a not-so-perfect Leopard at launch and a mega update a week later :)

sunfast
Oct 12, 2007, 01:04 PM
Great news! Don't think I've ever seen a news item with no negative votes before....

samh004
Oct 12, 2007, 01:04 PM
Where did this information come from, this could just be a flat out lie so people would stop whining (no offence).

Just seems a tad odd.

Great news! Don't think I've ever seen a news item with no negative votes before....

Just wait a little longer. Ballmer frequents these forums I'm told ;)

GeekLawyer
Oct 12, 2007, 01:04 PM
Here, kitty-kitty... Come on out; we're ready to play!

chr1s60
Oct 12, 2007, 01:05 PM
So maybe we will get lucky and be given an official release date on Monday or Tuesday. It looks like they are just barely gonna squeak by on their October release.

dizastor
Oct 12, 2007, 01:05 PM
wow. this is coming down to the wire...

I wonder if it will have to be available in limited quantity at 11:59pm on Wednesday the 31st?

glennyboiwpg
Oct 12, 2007, 01:06 PM
I can't wait!!

But how long after its release date will it take to reach me in South America??

I bet that you get it before us canadains do... I"m in winnipeg manitoba and our best buys/futureshops STILL don't have ipod touches!!!!

paulyras
Oct 12, 2007, 01:06 PM
Wow. I wonder what the odds will be of an after the close press release, so I can get my MBP with a free freaking copy of leopard?!?!?!? I'm tempted to just go get the dang thing regardless.....

stealthninja
Oct 12, 2007, 01:08 PM
i bet they have hammocks by their desks.

and a case of RedBulls each!

dizastor
Oct 12, 2007, 01:08 PM
Every time a Gold Candidate is rejected you burn it with some chemicals so out from the main HQ black smoke will appear. When you finally get a Gold Copy that will be finally you burn some papers so that white smokes appears.

Pope OSX the Fifth?

Pixbae
Oct 12, 2007, 01:13 PM
I bet that you get it before us canadains do... I"m in winnipeg manitoba and our best buys/futureshops STILL don't have ipod touches!!!!

I haven't seen any yet here in Quito, either. They're still selling the old nanos and shuffles!

FJ218700
Oct 12, 2007, 01:13 PM
I wonder when are we going to see new Apple front page... Does anyone remember how long before the Tiger release did Apple put the day counter on their site?

I think it was 14 days, might have been 16. I'm was hoping for a counter by 6:00 pacific tonight. maybe tomorrow or Mon though now.

twoodcc
Oct 12, 2007, 01:13 PM
Maybe by the end of today PR will let us know?

i sure hope so. man, this is going down to the wire

overcast
Oct 12, 2007, 01:15 PM
How many of hours of sleep do you think the programmers are getting?
Under the wrath of Jobs? Lewl.

chubad
Oct 12, 2007, 01:15 PM
They better pull some people from the iPhone team.;)

GeekLawyer
Oct 12, 2007, 01:18 PM
Apple's site still says Leopard is "arriving in October." Not shipping; arriving. Telling?

http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/

MattJessop
Oct 12, 2007, 01:19 PM
Great news! Don't think I've ever seen a news item with no negative votes before....

Looks like somebody did it just to upset you. :P

But otherwise! Finally!

Just a shame that I have no money after buying my iPod touch :(

Oh well.

twoodcc
Oct 12, 2007, 01:23 PM
Apple's site still says Leopard is "arriving in October." Not shipping; arriving. Telling?

http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/

that's true. it seems like "arriving" is better than "shipping"

mondesi43
Oct 12, 2007, 01:24 PM
and a case of RedBulls each!

Opening cans takes their fingers off the keyboard so :apple: has broken out the RedBull IV bags.

hotdamn
Oct 12, 2007, 01:25 PM
Under the wrath of Jobs? Lewl.

REAL ARTISTS SHIP!!!
haha

jonkemerer
Oct 12, 2007, 01:25 PM
Geez usually it's a money issue with me, now that I have the freaking money I'm waiting on the company to ship it out. I can never win.

JSpence
Oct 12, 2007, 01:25 PM
Under the wrath of Jobs? Lewl.


lol Jobs standing around the developers with his hands on his hips, pacing.

w00t! GM! Bring the Spotted Kat! :D

(lol j/k ...I know you spell Katt with two T's...)

crees!
Oct 12, 2007, 01:26 PM
How many of hours of sleep do you think the programmers are getting?
That word isn't even part of their vocabulary.

justflie
Oct 12, 2007, 01:26 PM
Looks like somebody did it just to upset you. :P

But otherwise! Finally!

Just a shame that I have no money after buying my iPod touch :(

Oh well.

HAHAHA. I was just going to write the same thing about seeing a news story with only 1 Negative vote. I hope those programmers get a day off when they're done. Oh wait, 10.5.1. Poor guys/gals. We should send them a fruit basket! :p

milo
Oct 12, 2007, 01:30 PM
wouldn't be surprised to see this ship on the last day in october. Don't know where the 26th deadline came from.

It's been covered repeatedly in tons of detail in previous article and threads. Apple has even made internal announcements of 6PM that day.

It's going to be the 26th, especially since the last day of October is Halloween.

Apple's site still says Leopard is "arriving in October." Not shipping; arriving. Telling?

http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/

Nope. Arriving and shipping are the same thing. Not to mention that they've already promised shipping in october.

LostPacket
Oct 12, 2007, 01:30 PM
If Leopard is released on the 26th, when would Macs begin shipping with it?

hob
Oct 12, 2007, 01:30 PM
I hope they don't ship it. It'd be way better if they released it as a download. 4 gigs would take most of us 2-3 hours to download off a decent server? Probably loads better for the environment too... Vista is available for direct download, it's about time Apple got onboard!

thies
Oct 12, 2007, 01:34 PM
It doesn't take much time to send the data to regional duplication facilities around the world and the final boxed product from there to stores.

abrooks
Oct 12, 2007, 01:34 PM
What is the point in this story? It tells me nothing.

twoodcc
Oct 12, 2007, 01:35 PM
It's been covered repeatedly in tons of detail in previous article and threads. Apple has even made internal announcements of 6PM that day.

It's going to be the 26th, especially since the last day of October is Halloween.

Nope. Arriving and shipping are the same thing. Not to mention that they've already promised shipping in october.

we want external announcements today 6pm, not internal

and arriving doesn't seem to be the same as shipping to me

I hope they don't ship it. It'd be way better if they released it as a download. 4 gigs would take most of us 2-3 hours to download off a decent server? Probably loads better for the environment too... Vista is available for direct download, it's about time Apple got onboard!

but that's not very apple-like now is it?

fishkorp
Oct 12, 2007, 01:35 PM
I hope they don't ship it. It'd be way better if they released it as a download. 4 gigs would take most of us 2-3 hours to download off a decent server? Probably loads better for the environment too... Vista is available for direct download, it's about time Apple got onboard!

Leopard is on a dual-layered DVD, not everyone has a DL burner. also, MS can get away with it since their OS requires a CD Key and activation, Apple's OS does not. i doubt you'll see a downloadable version

tonyC4L
Oct 12, 2007, 01:42 PM
I've got some kind of addiction with updating things, so I'd love to see a not-so-perfect Leopard at launch and a mega update a week later :)
I know exactly what you mean. There's some strange satisfaction I get by running software update and seeing a bunch of updates pop up. And I'm even more excited when I see that progress bar moving. Oh man...:D

twoodcc
Oct 12, 2007, 01:42 PM
What is the point in this story? It tells me nothing.

it says that a new internal build of leopard was created today and it might be GM

mrkramer
Oct 12, 2007, 01:43 PM
I hope they don't ship it. It'd be way better if they released it as a download. 4 gigs would take most of us 2-3 hours to download off a decent server? Probably loads better for the environment too... Vista is available for direct download, it's about time Apple got onboard!

that would be a bad idea, since you need to burn it anyway to install it and the low end macs still ship with a combo drive so they would be unable to install it. Also I would guess that it would be just as bad for the environment since some people would probably end up making more than the one CD. along with it encouraging piracy since you could burn as many copies as you want and there is nothing to stop the same download from being installed on multiple computers. And at least in the US most people still have slow internet connections when the 8GB would be almost impossible to download.

Doctor Q
Oct 12, 2007, 01:44 PM
This kind of racing the clock worries me, but just a bit. While those bleary-eyed overworked programmers are losing sleep trying to iron out the last issues, I'll try not to lose sleep worrying that they'll ship Leopard before it's finally and completely ready.

Luckily, as long as Leopard installs OK, Software Update will take care of followup glitches.

0racle
Oct 12, 2007, 01:44 PM
not everyone has a DL burner
Or a broadband connection.

twoodcc
Oct 12, 2007, 01:46 PM
This kind of racing the clock worries me, but just a bit. While those bleary-eyed overworked programmers are losing sleep trying to iron out the last issues, I'll try not to lose sleep worrying that they'll ship Leopard before it's finally and completely ready.

Luckily, as long as Leopard installs OK, Software Update will take care of followup glitches.

it doesn't really worry me. i do feel kinda sorry for them though....having to work those long hours....but they'll get paid for it.

yeah, Software Update's got my back

riverfreak
Oct 12, 2007, 01:49 PM
Leopard is on a dual-layered DVD, not everyone has a DL burner. also, MS can get away with it since their OS requires a CD Key and activation, Apple's OS does not. i doubt you'll see a downloadable version

Who says you have to install from removable media? It doesn't amount to a hill of beans if Leopard requires a dual layer DVD in order to distribute on a single disc. The install procedure should be intelligent enough to mount an ISO.

It is time for Apple to start digital distribution. I don't want a stupid box I'm just going to throw away, or a DVD I'll never use again. What's the point?

bignumbers
Oct 12, 2007, 01:51 PM
I'm curious as to the status of Leopard Server. Sometimes Apple releases Server alongside the client OS, sometimes it lags behind.

Any word from the inside?

twoodcc
Oct 12, 2007, 01:52 PM
Who says you have to install from removable media? It doesn't amount to a hill of beans if Leopard requires a dual layer DVD in order to distribute on a single disc. The install procedure should be intelligent enough to mount an ISO.

It is time for Apple to start digital distribution. I don't want a stupid box I'm just going to throw away, or a DVD I'll never use again. What's the point?

umm....you can't install a new OS inside your current OS.....so you have to install from something outside your OS, or removable media

vassillios
Oct 12, 2007, 01:55 PM
that's true. it seems like "arriving" is better than "shipping"

not true...arriving could mean arriving to Apple wharehouses for distribution to retail staores. They could very well announce it's "arrival" on the 26th with shipping in 5 days.

This happened to me with Groove Agent 3

0racle
Oct 12, 2007, 01:56 PM
a DVD I'll never use again. What's the point?
The disk tools on the install disk can be very handy.

BTW
Oct 12, 2007, 01:56 PM
That's good news, although it seems like they are cutting it fairly close to be in stores on 10-26.

I agree with people who would rather see it late than buggy, though.


I wouldn't. A general public beta is good. Mac-folk always know that the 10.x.0 version is raw, so they have good warning to wait until 10.x.2 or later. For the rest of us, we'll happily beta test. :D

vassillios
Oct 12, 2007, 01:58 PM
that would be a bad idea, since you need to burn it anyway to install it and the low end macs still ship with a combo drive so they would be unable to install it. Also I would guess that it would be just as bad for the environment since some people would probably end up making more than the one CD. along with it encouraging piracy since you could burn as many copies as you want and there is nothing to stop the same download from being installed on multiple computers. And at least in the US most people still have slow internet connections when the 8GB would be almost impossible to download.


You don't need to burn it. All you need to do is make a bootable back up of the dmg to an external usb drive. Boot into this usb drive and install.

Of course this solution is not ideal and practical for most and it can therefore only be by dvd.

rsoerensen
Oct 12, 2007, 02:00 PM
Every time a Gold Candidate is rejected you burn it with some chemicals so out from the main HQ black smoke will appear. When you finally get a Gold Copy that will be finally you burn some papers so that white smokes appears.

Pope OSX the Fifth?

Pope OSX the Fifth it is...

fishkorp
Oct 12, 2007, 02:00 PM
Who says you have to install from removable media? It doesn't amount to a hill of beans if Leopard requires a dual layer DVD in order to distribute on a single disc. The install procedure should be intelligent enough to mount an ISO.

It is time for Apple to start digital distribution. I don't want a stupid box I'm just going to throw away, or a DVD I'll never use again. What's the point?

that would require multiple drives or multiple partitions. and the leopard install DVD has all the Windows drivers on it. without the DVD, BootCamp will be missign some stuff.

and again, much easier to pirate a Mac OS this way then it is a Windows OS. you won't see digital Apple OS distribution until they implement keys and/or activation.

lazyrighteye
Oct 12, 2007, 02:01 PM
i bet they have hammocks by their desks.

At the very least, they're rockin' the ol' "George Costanza"...

Roy Hobbs
Oct 12, 2007, 02:02 PM
Or a broadband connection.

Those people can wait until the discs arrive in stores

Challeman
Oct 12, 2007, 02:03 PM
umm....you can't install a new OS inside your current OS.....so you have to install from something outside your OS, or removable media
Funny as I did just that with XP and Vista(beta)...

twoodcc
Oct 12, 2007, 02:04 PM
that would require multiple drives or multiple partitions. and the leopard install DVD has all the Windows drivers on it. without the DVD, BootCamp will be missign some stuff.

and again, much easier to pirate a Mac OS this way then it is a Windows OS. you won't see digital Apple OS distribution until they implement keys and/or activation.

i agree here. and we don't want Apple turning into M$

lazyrighteye
Oct 12, 2007, 02:05 PM
They better pull some people from the iPhone team.;)

Ha. That's actually pretty funny...

twoodcc
Oct 12, 2007, 02:05 PM
Funny as I did just that with XP and Vista(beta)...

are you trying to say you upgraded from XP to Vista with one hard drive and one partition? no cd, dvd, or usb drive?

sorry, but no can do

Darkroom
Oct 12, 2007, 02:06 PM
Not going to happen, the 31st is Halloween.
The 26th date is based on the fact that the last few OS releases have been the last Friday of the month.

trick or treat honey... trick or treat...

I bet that you get it before us canadains do... I"m in winnipeg manitoba and our best buys/futureshops STILL don't have ipod touches!!!!

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/canadastore - free shipping in 7-10 business days... why bother with Futuresh*t or Worst Buy?

I hope they don't ship it. It'd be way better if they released it as a download. 4 gigs would take most of us 2-3 hours to download off a decent server? Probably loads better for the environment too... Vista is available for direct download, it's about time Apple got onboard!

i can assure you it will be online in a downloadable version, just probably not from apple... ;)

vassillios
Oct 12, 2007, 02:06 PM
Who says you have to install from removable media? It doesn't amount to a hill of beans if Leopard requires a dual layer DVD in order to distribute on a single disc. The install procedure should be intelligent enough to mount an ISO.

It is time for Apple to start digital distribution. I don't want a stupid box I'm just going to throw away, or a DVD I'll never use again. What's the point?

Here's the answer. It may not work for all, but it will work for those who meet the criteria:

1) There's a wizard to check that you have sufficient space on your internal HD (or even a connected drive).

2) the wizard creates a non-destructive partition on your hard drive (much like bootcamp assistant).

3) The .dmg file is downloaded to your current os partition.

4) the .dmg is archived to the new partition and is made bootable.

5) OS X nows reboots (automatically) into the install partition and the normal install process begins...


TA F'N DA...... i'm a genius!

Remember that this only works if you meet the space criteria.

DaBrain
Oct 12, 2007, 02:06 PM
What is the point in this story? It tells me nothing.

Yeah but it got you reading it!--))) Things are not that bad, it could of been yet another article on the iPhone.

:D

Telp
Oct 12, 2007, 02:06 PM
Woohoo!!! Now all we need is an announcement of the day it will be in stores.

TOMORROW :p:p:D:D :(:( :apple::apple:

phillipjfry
Oct 12, 2007, 02:07 PM
Apple's site still says Leopard is "arriving in October." Not shipping; arriving. Telling?

http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/

Bottom of Apple's Leopard website:
All features referenced in the Mac OS X Leopard website are subject to change.
:)

They can change it to November on Oct. 31st if they wanted to, I figure.
Each week is killing us all a little inside. If not announced this Friday, than most likely next.
I'm starting to think that it will be announced in the next two weeks, to arrive in stores by the beginning of November :(

DaBrain
Oct 12, 2007, 02:09 PM
Or a broadband connection.

And many I would venture prefer a hard copy from Apple!:eek:

cobravap
Oct 12, 2007, 02:10 PM
wow, i cant wait for this.

DavidLeblond
Oct 12, 2007, 02:11 PM
It is time for Apple to start digital distribution. I don't want a stupid box I'm just going to throw away, or a DVD I'll never use again. What's the point?

I bought Tiger on DVD in a stupid box, but I never threw the stupid box out. Why?

Well because I plan on selling the DVD and box on eBay the day I get Leopard. Just the same way I did with Panther, and iLife '04-'06. Can't do that with a digital download.;)

reckless_0001
Oct 12, 2007, 02:12 PM
I haven't seen any yet here in Quito, either. They're still selling the old nanos and shuffles!

Same problem here in Saskatchewan, Canada. No new iPods in futureshop and a 2 month wait list for new iMacs.
:confused:

I never buy Macs from there anyways, always online. It's just a matter of principle though. Maybe a person is "switching" based on a store model, then they find out that they have to wait 2 months for their iMac.

Tampa Tom
Oct 12, 2007, 02:17 PM
Pope OSX the Fifth it is...

Phantastic Photo!

lofight
Oct 12, 2007, 02:26 PM
i've heard that they will start selling on a specific time everywhere in the world at local time, but does that mean that before that time, they ship every copy to all the countries and then they start selling it?? or is it like the ipod touch where they first announce it, and after a month they still don't have them in some countries??

reckless_0001
Oct 12, 2007, 02:26 PM
Bottom of Apple's Leopard website:
All features referenced in the Mac OS X Leopard website are subject to change.
:)

They can change it to November on Oct. 31st if they wanted to, I figure.


This can also be a positive note. Meaning, they can add some last minute "secret" features too. :D

PeteW
Oct 12, 2007, 02:27 PM
Have been holding off buying a new iMac since August, waiting for 10.5 - now I'm thinking iMac upgrade in Jan. 08? ( 10 weeks ) help - its doing my head in!:eek:

Roy Hobbs
Oct 12, 2007, 02:28 PM
Have been holding off buying a new iMac since August, waiting for 10.5 - now I'm thinking iMac upgrade in Jan. 08? ( 10 weeks ) help - its doing my head in!:eek:

iMacs were just updated, at most a speed bump if anything in January

kamiboy
Oct 12, 2007, 02:29 PM
I don't like the sound of this. If I get Leopard on launch day and I get any kernel panics or program crashes I will loose respect and enthusiasm for Apple with each one. I wish we lived in a world where software was not shipped until it had been tested as much as humanly possible instead of as soon as it is as stable as acceptable with the option of fixing all bugs via software updates.

vassillios
Oct 12, 2007, 02:30 PM
Have been holding off buying a new iMac since August, waiting for 10.5 - now I'm thinking iMac upgrade in Jan. 08? ( 10 weeks ) help - its doing my head in!:eek:

Whay would you wait 10 weeks to order if Leopard is released in 2 weeks?

If you meant that the imac will get upgraded in Jan 08, I think you're wrong...it will be MBP's and Mac Pros

lofight
Oct 12, 2007, 02:32 PM
I don't like the sound of this. If I get Leopard on launch day and I get any kernel panics or program crashes I will loose respect and enthusiasm for Apple with each one. I wish we lived in a world where software was not shipped until it had been tested as much as humanly possible instead of as soon as it is as stable as acceptable with the option of fixing all bugs via software updates.

How would that be possible, still after some years tiger still has bugs... so, they can't test leopard years...

~Shard~
Oct 12, 2007, 02:32 PM
I sure hope it's soon - I've been holding off purchase of a nice new MacBook Pro for this very reason! Let's hope we hear something definite in the next business day or two.

Cavemate K
Oct 12, 2007, 02:33 PM
Bottom of Apple's Leopard website:
All features referenced in the Mac OS X Leopard website are subject to change.
:)



Could the release date really be considered a feature of Leopard?

aldalric
Oct 12, 2007, 02:35 PM
I agree with the arriving not shipping bit, but isn't it possible that apple has streamlined the duplication proccess. I'm sure they have the boxes sitting in the warehouse under lock and key (armed guard??) just waiting for the dvd. A friend of mine works at a cd/dvd duplication Co. here in western NC and he's told me that there have been a few advances in duplication in the past year. They've cut duplication time by 38% on most DVD projects.

Data is data, right... be it movie, audio, or OS code

I'm just saying that the time constraints of duplication might be smaller, thus a GM declaration could be as late as Tuesday next week...

~Shard~
Oct 12, 2007, 02:35 PM
If you meant that the imac will get upgraded in Jan 08, I think you're wrong...it will be MBP's and Mac Pros

The portable line-up will definitely receive updates before the iMac line sees a refresh, however it's all about timing. If we see new portables in November, in time for the holiday shopping season, then perhaps an iMac update will indeed happen in January. If ity does though, it will be a minor refresh IMO, nothing major.

LimeiBook86
Oct 12, 2007, 02:44 PM
Ah yes, another OS release is on the horizon. :) This should be exciting, although it is cutting it pretty close.

I remember traveling all over to find a copy of Mac OS X 10.2 Jaguar, they had a shortage of the family packs. :p But, hopefully things will go smoothly so we won't have to wait much longer.

Hmm... I wonder what (if any) promotional goodies they'll be giving out this time. :D

jellomizer
Oct 12, 2007, 02:44 PM
I don't like the sound of this. If I get Leopard on launch day and I get any kernel panics or program crashes I will loose respect and enthusiasm for Apple with each one. I wish we lived in a world where software was not shipped until it had been tested as much as humanly possible instead of as soon as it is as stable as acceptable with the option of fixing all bugs via software updates.

Well as a software developer I can tell you a couple of secrets.

1. No matter how much testing you do in house there will be problems when released to the general public.

2. The more people that the product is released for the more problems that will occur.

3. The more problems that occur the more of a chance that they will not be easy ones to fix.

4. Developing a complex application until it is perfect costs exponentially to its complexity. Unless you are willing to wait for 2015 for OS X 10.5 and Pay $8,000 for a copy. It is not going to happen.

5. Good enough for 90% of the people is the normal goal. Narrow down to 99% during the product life cycle.

6. Modern Software Development tools have bugs of there own causing problems to your program while you did officially follow the specs.

7. For a general purpose application (such as an operating system) it is impossible to figure out all the holes in it.

8. Unlike the Old days software is more integrated with the OS. So problems in the Application mess with the OS and problems in the OS mess with the application. OS Developers have little control what the application developers do.

9. To Keep compatibility you need to use some bad code to be backwards compatible or sideways compatible to other poorly written systems.

10. Hardware manufactures have the same problem thus causing a catch 22.

Doctor Q
Oct 12, 2007, 02:45 PM
Could the release date really be considered a feature of Leopard?Aha! It's the last secret feature!

hob
Oct 12, 2007, 02:47 PM
Why doesn't OS X have a serial key, I've always wondered. Is it because it's ineffective without some sort of activation or that it's just a pain?

Apple could go ahead with downloads if they either used their DRM for something reasonable (software rather than music) or just realise that anyone that can install it has already paid them for a Mac, and that anyone that's going to pirate OS X, will do regardless...

Peace
Oct 12, 2007, 02:47 PM
Apple leaks again.
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?mco=A25DB29&fnode=home/shop_mac/software/apple&nplm=MA453Z/A


even though it says Tiger it says ships Oct.26th

rotlex
Oct 12, 2007, 02:48 PM
I sure hope it's soon - I've been holding off purchase of a nice new MacBook Pro for this very reason! Let's hope we hear something definite in the next business day or two.

Ditto - been holding off on a new iMac purchase, along with a new MBPro for the wife for this. I can't wait much longer!@!!!!!! :D

lofight
Oct 12, 2007, 02:50 PM
Apple leaks again.
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?mco=A25DB29&fnode=home/shop_mac/software/apple&nplm=MA453Z/A


even though it says Tiger it says ships Oct.26th
:p yes!! we have the date, or it could just be a minor fault.

Taylor C
Oct 12, 2007, 02:50 PM
Why doesn't OS X have a serial key, I've always wondered. Is it because it's ineffective without some sort of activation or that it's just a pain?

Apple could go ahead with downloads if they either used their DRM for something reasonable (software rather than music) or just realise that anyone that can install it has already paid them for a Mac, and that anyone that's going to pirate OS X, will do regardless...


Because Apple knows that 1, activation is ineffective in stopping piracy and 2, annoying as hell for people who are honest and do pay for their software. Also, having millions of clients downloading a 6GB+ file isn't reasonable no matter how substantial Apple's server farms may be. Apple is also very smart in their pricing scheme for OS X, shipping the same disc in both the standard and family packs, and only charging a small sum more for additional licenses. Sure, some people aren't honest and don't pay for multiple licenses, but because the option is there and fair, most do.

lazyrighteye
Oct 12, 2007, 02:51 PM
We don't want Apple turning into M$

Too late. ;)

overcast
Oct 12, 2007, 02:51 PM
Why doesn't OS X have a serial key, I've always wondered. Is it because it's ineffective without some sort of activation or that it's just a pain?

Apple could go ahead with downloads if they either used their DRM for something reasonable (software rather than music) or just realise that anyone that can install it has already paid them for a Mac, and that anyone that's going to pirate OS X, will do regardless...
Because it's already locked to only Apple Hardware. Why do you think the OS costs nothing in comparison. 5 user license for what, $10 more? Apple makes their money from their hardware. The OS is the incentive to buy into their proprietary scheme.

FJ218700
Oct 12, 2007, 02:53 PM
Apple leaks again.
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?mco=A25DB29&fnode=home/shop_mac/software/apple&nplm=MA453Z/A


even though it says Tiger it says ships Oct.26th

so according to Apple, if I buy the family pack today, I'll have it by Monday. Sweet! :rolleyes::D

ortuno2k
Oct 12, 2007, 02:53 PM
Can't wait for an announcement from :apple:
Come on! :D

DavidLeblond
Oct 12, 2007, 02:53 PM
Because it's already locked to only Apple Hardware. Why do you think the OS costs nothing in comparison. 5 user license for what, $10 more? Apple makes their money from their hardware. The OS is the incentive to buy into their proprietary scheme.

Actually $70 more, but you hit the nail on the head. They don't make their money off of selling their OS.

Peace
Oct 12, 2007, 02:54 PM
so if I buy the family pack today, I'll have it by Monday. Sweet! :rolleyes::D

Thats the point :rolleyes:

Why would Tiger ship Oct.26th when it's readily available right now?

Hello?

DavidLeblond
Oct 12, 2007, 02:54 PM
so if I buy the family pack today, I'll have it by Monday. Sweet! :rolleyes::D

You will.

But it will be Tiger. ;)

Snide
Oct 12, 2007, 02:55 PM
It is time for Apple to start digital distribution. I don't want a stupid box I'm just going to throw away, or a DVD I'll never use again. What's the point?


If you ever need to start up from the DVD to run Disk Repair; to change the
system password; to write zeros to the drive; do an Archive and Install, ect,
you'll need physical media (DVD).

queshy
Oct 12, 2007, 03:01 PM
Yesterday I checked the tiger website and they were both shipping in 24 hrs...something's fishy here!

But what if you really do need tiger (machine wont be able to run leopard) and apple ships you leopard? lol

JSpence
Oct 12, 2007, 03:01 PM
So this new GM candidate is an internal release only? So all of the developers outside of :apple: aren't going to be able to update to this version? hmm...

hob
Oct 12, 2007, 03:04 PM
Because it's already locked to only Apple Hardware. Why do you think the OS costs nothing in comparison. 5 user license for what, $10 more? Apple makes their money from their hardware. The OS is the incentive to buy into their proprietary scheme.

I wasn't advocating a serial key - I was trying to state that it was futile to have one, as anyone that will pay for OS X will, and anyone that won't still won't. I'd just like to be able to download OS X when it comes out so I don't have to wait for it to arrive! Also, I don't have any need for a box, manual, anything like that. All a big waste of paper!

xfusejc
Oct 12, 2007, 03:08 PM
I never had to buy Tiger since it came preinstalled with my two computers, but I'll be buying Leopard to upgrade them both.

If there's no CD-key or activation thing, there's nothing to stop me from using the installation on both computers buying the single user DVD, right? I don't want to have to shell out $99 more if I don't have to.

siren77
Oct 12, 2007, 03:08 PM
Well as a software developer I can tell you a couple of secrets.

1. No matter how much testing you do in house there will be problems when released to the general public.

2. The more people that the product is released for the more problems that will occur.

3. The more problems that occur the more of a chance that they will not be easy ones to fix.

4. Developing a complex application until it is perfect costs exponentially to its complexity. Unless you are willing to wait for 2015 for OS X 10.5 and Pay $8,000 for a copy. It is not going to happen.

5. Good enough for 90% of the people is the normal goal. Narrow down to 99% during the product life cycle.

6. Modern Software Development tools have bugs of there own causing problems to your program while you did officially follow the specs.

7. For a general purpose application (such as an operating system) it is impossible to figure out all the holes in it.

8. Unlike the Old days software is more integrated with the OS. So problems in the Application mess with the OS and problems in the OS mess with the application. OS Developers have little control what the application developers do.

9. To Keep compatibility you need to use some bad code to be backwards compatible or sideways compatible to other poorly written systems.

10. Hardware manufactures have the same problem thus causing a catch 22.

Very good points made. Enough to convince me to get leopard as soon as it's released :)

GeekLawyer
Oct 12, 2007, 03:11 PM
If there's no CD-key or activation thing, there's nothing to stop me from using the installation on both computers buying the single user DVD, right? I don't want to have to shell out $99 more if I don't have to.

Technically this is correct. Legally, not so much.

xfusejc
Oct 12, 2007, 03:13 PM
So it's just the legality of it. I'm using the $100 from the iPhone to buy it anyways so I just have to pay the difference.

jellomizer
Oct 12, 2007, 03:16 PM
Why doesn't OS X have a serial key, I've always wondered. Is it because it's ineffective without some sort of activation or that it's just a pain?

Apple could go ahead with downloads if they either used their DRM for something reasonable (software rather than music) or just realise that anyone that can install it has already paid them for a Mac, and that anyone that's going to pirate OS X, will do regardless...

1. Because Serial Keys are annoying, and Apple wants their customers to like them.

2. Piracty of OS X isn't a major consern for Apple.

3. It only run on Macs so the people already paid Apple some money

4. Still Mac users are defuse it is easier to buy a copy then to find an other Mac user who is willing to give you a copy of their disk.

5. Operating Systems are one of those software that people really like or should have a separate Media of Digital Downloads could cause huge problems if the OS Goes bad, so it better to buy the CD then just borrow a copy.

6. It is on DVD takes a long time to burn, or to download still so rampant piracy isn't going to happen.

7. It is better for people to experience a New Version of the OS so their next purchase will be an other Mac. Then make things so locked down that they can't upgrade and next time perhaps go with something else because they think of Mac OS X as from the Old version.

8. Less things to go wrong. Just make it work, makes installing the OS Quick and Easy.

GeekLawyer
Oct 12, 2007, 03:17 PM
So it's just the legality of it. I'm using the $100 from the iPhone to buy it anyways so I just have to pay the difference.

Yep, exactly.

lofight
Oct 12, 2007, 03:20 PM
1. Because Serial Keys are annoying, and Apple wants their customers to like them.

2. Piracty of OS X isn't a major consern for Apple.

3. It only run on Macs so the people already paid Apple some money

4. Still Mac users are defuse it is easier to buy a copy then to find an other Mac user who is willing to give you a copy of their disk.

5. Operating Systems are one of those software that people really like or should have a separate Media of Digital Downloads could cause huge problems if the OS Goes bad, so it better to buy the CD then just borrow a copy.

6. It is on DVD takes a long time to burn, or to download still so rampant piracy isn't going to happen.

7. It is better for people to experience a New Version of the OS so their next purchase will be an other Mac. Then make things so locked down that they can't upgrade and next time perhaps go with something else because they think of Mac OS X as from the Old version.

8. Less things to go wrong. Just make it work, makes installing the OS Quick and Easy.

9. it costs much less than the windows versions so people are going to buy it faster, and the thought of that microsoft's owner already has in the 50 Billion dollars, the windows users illegally copy it faster

minik
Oct 12, 2007, 03:22 PM
They better pull some people from the iPhone team.;)

You meant the other way around? The iPhone team needs more folks to lock it down.

texkev73
Oct 12, 2007, 03:26 PM
WOOT!!!!! Sooo ready for the next level.....:apple::apple::apple::):):)

lazyrighteye
Oct 12, 2007, 03:28 PM
This can also be a positive note. Meaning, they can add some last minute "secret" features too. :D

Speaking of... did I miss the 'top secret' features Steve mentioned in the keynote?
Honestly, I can't recall if he literally said "top secret features" or if that was conjured up by the rumor force. And I can't recall what we knew then vs. what we know now... regardless, at this point in the game, nothing feels very 'top secret' to me.

bdj21ya
Oct 12, 2007, 03:28 PM
Interesting. I'm surprised it hasn't gone GM official yet. That's an impressive manufacturing and distribution infrastructure if they're still planning for an Oct 26 release.

milo
Oct 12, 2007, 03:33 PM
we want external announcements today 6pm, not internal

and arriving doesn't seem to be the same as shipping to me

I don't think apple cares what you want. They've already said october, and they'll let the press know in time to make an event on the 26th. Apple really has no reason to make an announcement earlier than that.

And "arriving" means showing up in a store so people can by it. Please explain how that's any different from "shipping"?

I don't want a stupid box I'm just going to throw away, or a DVD I'll never use again. What's the point?

You'll use it again if your hard drive crashes. You'd be an idiot to not back up the install image. Or are you happy to pay $129 again just to save the cost of a blank DVD?

aranhamo
Oct 12, 2007, 03:34 PM
I don't like the sound of this. If I get Leopard on launch day and I get any kernel panics or program crashes I will loose respect and enthusiasm for Apple with each one. I wish we lived in a world where software was not shipped until it had been tested as much as humanly possible instead of as soon as it is as stable as acceptable with the option of fixing all bugs via software updates.

That would mean no software would ship, ever. There are a couple of famous mathematical proofs that show that it's impossible to write a program that is totally bug-free, and impossible to write any program with a loop that is guaranteed to exit. Engineering is all about trade-offs.

Bilvox
Oct 12, 2007, 03:37 PM
as noted about tiger saying oct 26th...
I went to the macbook pro pages and I noted "15 inches 1-2 days 17 inches 7-10 business days."
Hmmm
Im just adding fuel to the rumor mill :p

~bv:apple:

siren77
Oct 12, 2007, 03:45 PM
as noted about tiger saying oct 26th...
I went to the macbook pro pages and I noted "15 inches 1-2 days 17 inches 7-10 business days."
Hmmm
Im just adding fuel to the rumor mill :p

~bv:apple:

Sorry, I'm a newbie but can you please elaborate?

FJ218700
Oct 12, 2007, 03:46 PM
Sorry, I'm a newbie but can you please elaborate?

perhaps suggestive of a 17 inch refresh

perhaps suggestive of low stock

lofight
Oct 12, 2007, 03:46 PM
Sorry, I'm a newbie but can you please elaborate?

because there are also rumors about new macbook pro's coming out, there are many rumors the last mounth!

seashellz2
Oct 12, 2007, 04:09 PM
Im still thinking Oct 33rd-even if they announced today-I doubt they could get stuff into stores *BEFORE* Oct 26.

For inventory reasons, stores usually like to get stuff a couple days early so they can sort out various issues-put ads in print, displays, signs in windows-distribution-and actually HAVE the product in hand. Not nice to disappoint folks.

So really, Leopard should be in stock physically at all stores by the 24th, which is really cutting it close. TOO close.

Cant you see crowds storming a Best Buy, et, al-to be told-"sorry it didnt come in today maybe tomorrow"
Or said employees selling them out of the back of a just-arrived semi-trailer truck in the front of the store on Oct 28?

Steve wouldnt have to fall on his sword if Leopard came out Nov 2-3-
after all, it is STILL a week in October.

And not 23 release announcements and 5 years later, like VISTA

Telp
Oct 12, 2007, 04:32 PM
Im still thinking Oct 33rd-even if they announced today-I doubt they could get stuff into stores *BEFORE* Oct 26.

For inventory reasons, stores usually like to get stuff a couple days early so they can sort out various issues-put ads in print, displays, signs in windows-distribution-and actually HAVE the product in hand. Not nice to disappoint folks.

So really, Leopard should be in stock physically at all stores by the 24th, which is really cutting it close. TOO close.

Cant you see crowds storming a Best Buy, et, al-to be told-"sorry it didnt come in today maybe tomorrow"
Or said employees selling them out of the back of a just-arrived semi-trailer truck in the front of the store on Oct 28?

Steve wouldnt have to fall on his sword if Leopard came out Nov 2-3-
after all, it is STILL a week in October.

And not 23 release announcements and 5 years later, like VISTA

You forget the only stores getting this are Apple stores...so they are already ready...

InLikeALion
Oct 12, 2007, 04:35 PM
You forget the only stores getting this are Apple stores...so they are already ready...

Precisely what I was thinking. The Apple stores probably already have, or will be getting this week, all promo material for display. Someone else already smartly surmised that all the regional duplication plants also probably already have all the boxes/packaging already arriving, and its like a giant, coordinated team getting ready to work as one as soon as the GM is handed off to them.

vassillios
Oct 12, 2007, 04:44 PM
Im still thinking Oct 33rd-even if they announced today-I doubt they could get stuff into stores *BEFORE* Oct 26.

For inventory reasons, stores usually like to get stuff a couple days early so they can sort out various issues-put ads in print, displays, signs in windows-distribution-and actually HAVE the product in hand. Not nice to disappoint folks.

So really, Leopard should be in stock physically at all stores by the 24th, which is really cutting it close. TOO close.

Cant you see crowds storming a Best Buy, et, al-to be told-"sorry it didnt come in today maybe tomorrow"
Or said employees selling them out of the back of a just-arrived semi-trailer truck in the front of the store on Oct 28?

Steve wouldnt have to fall on his sword if Leopard came out Nov 2-3-
after all, it is STILL a week in October.

And not 23 release announcements and 5 years later, like VISTA


Oct 33rd? What calendar are you using?

Sbrocket
Oct 12, 2007, 04:46 PM
The Build number for the latest GM candidate is said to be 9A581.

Plenty of room for bug fixes between 9A559 and 9A581.

InLikeALion
Oct 12, 2007, 04:47 PM
Oct 33rd? What calendar are you using?

It may be a quip to refer to Nov 2?

InLikeALion
Oct 12, 2007, 04:48 PM
Plenty of room for bug fixes between 9A559 and 9A581.

Both a good point, and an optimistic/reassuring way to view it. :)

gnasher729
Oct 12, 2007, 04:49 PM
Pope OSX the Fifth?

The Sixth. 10.5 is the sixth version of MacOS X.

Peace
Oct 12, 2007, 04:51 PM
Plenty of room for bug fixes between 9A559 and 9A581.

Got a link to what you quoted ? ;)

InLikeALion
Oct 12, 2007, 05:01 PM
Got a link to what you quoted ? ;)

I think the MR page 1 article was updated to include the supposed internal build number, which he is comparing to the last public release number.

Peace
Oct 12, 2007, 05:02 PM
I think the MR page 1 article was updated to include the supposed internal build number, which he is comparing to the last public release number.


It was a joke..Long story..Has to do with contributing and seeing advertising:)

gnasher729
Oct 12, 2007, 05:06 PM
I wasn't advocating a serial key - I was trying to state that it was futile to have one, as anyone that will pay for OS X will, and anyone that won't still won't. I'd just like to be able to download OS X when it comes out so I don't have to wait for it to arrive! Also, I don't have any need for a box, manual, anything like that. All a big waste of paper!

The iTunes Music Store has shipped 3 billion songs of around 4MB each over several. That would be about the same amount of data as two million copies of Leopard at around six GB. That's an awful lot of data. Can you imagine what would happen on release day? Demand could be hundred times that of a good day at the iTunes store.

A typical song at 99 cents costs about 25 cents per Megabyte. If we assume Leopard costs $129 for 6 GB, that is only 2.15 cents per Megabyte. That would be a substantial percentage of download cost.

InLikeALion
Oct 12, 2007, 05:07 PM
It was a joke..Long story..Has to do with contributing and seeing advertising:)

I see. I've been reading since the Intel switch announcement, but I guess I have yet to pick up on some of the idioms on MR. :rolleyes:

gnasher729
Oct 12, 2007, 05:13 PM
That would mean no software would ship, ever. There are a couple of famous mathematical proofs that show that it's impossible to write a program that is totally bug-free, and impossible to write any program with a loop that is guaranteed to exit. Engineering is all about trade-offs.

#include <stdio.h>
int main (void) {
int i;
for (i = 0; i < 10; ++i)
printf ("Welcome to MacOS X 10.5!\n");
return 0;
}

Ok, the Safari spelling checker doesn't like it, but to me it looks bug-free and it has a loop that is guaranteed to exit :D

kamiboy
Oct 12, 2007, 05:37 PM
That would mean no software would ship, ever. There are a couple of famous mathematical proofs that show that it's impossible to write a program that is totally bug-free, and impossible to write any program with a loop that is guaranteed to exit. Engineering is all about trade-offs.

That is obvious, as a developer I know it is impossible to write 100% error free code. What I mean is that in the last decade or so the rapid growth of the internet has allowed developers to become lazy and cut loose.

If Apple is still scrambling to stamp as many bugs as possible a mere weeks before their self imposed shipping deadline then surely Leopard could use some more time being tested.

In the old days the software ship date would be moved but now developers just have to get things working to within a acceptable level, which has fallen very low with people being used to bugs and then ship the product and patch it later.

A whole generation of people that grew up with m$'s ****** software have developed a very high tolerance for bugs in their software as well as their OS. I however loathe nothing more than when a program or OS crashes on me without any reason, which is why I finally switched to Mac.

Come release date I would hate for a scenario where Leopard is full of bugs and when it crashes and acts wierd people just shrug their shoulder and say, hey it's just been released so it is normal and I am sure it will be fixed in an update. For windows I expect it but for OSX, no! I expect a lot more from Apple when they claim to be so much better then they should put their money where their mouth is.

I will pick up a copy come launch day and as I said with each crash or kernel panic my respect for Apple will diminish, I just hope Apple will do me right.

aranhamo
Oct 12, 2007, 05:42 PM
#include <stdio.h>
int main (void) {
int i;
for (i = 0; i < 10; ++i)
printf ("Welcome to MacOS X 10.5!\n");
return 0;
}

Ok, the Safari spelling checker doesn't like it, but to me it looks bug-free and it has a loop that is guaranteed to exit :D

Yes, but mathematicians smarter than us both have proved otherwise, to great acclaim of their peers.

Brianstorm91
Oct 12, 2007, 05:43 PM
Apple declares GM there will be 24 hours of sunshine around the world, birds will sing, crying babies will fall silent, there will be a rainbow ending in Cupertino and Bill Gates will suffer a hernia.
:eek:

sam10685
Oct 12, 2007, 06:04 PM
Not going to happen, the 31st is Halloween.
The 26th date is based on the fact that the last few OS releases have been the last Friday of the month.

Halloween isn't a holiday. It's just a day that was made up so people spend money.

sam10685
Oct 12, 2007, 06:07 PM
Oct 33rd? What calendar are you using?

I bet he means november 2nd.

psychofreak
Oct 12, 2007, 06:08 PM
Halloween isn't a holiday. It's just a day that was made up so people spend money.

No it wasn't...its just a day that is now exploited so people spend money...just like Valentines etc.

Brianstorm91
Oct 12, 2007, 06:10 PM
Halloween isn't a holiday. It's just a day that was made up so people spend money.

There was me thinking it was an Irish holiday over a thousand years old :p

aranhamo
Oct 12, 2007, 06:10 PM
Halloween isn't a holiday. It's just a day that was made up so people spend money.

Halloween was my favorite holiday when I was young and single. Now that I have my own kids, it's great to see them in their costumes and to take them trick-or-treating around the neighborhood. We love Halloween at our house. This year, one boy is dressing up as Roo and the other as the Tin Man.

That doesn't mean I can't buy a copy of Leopard on Halloween though...

milo
Oct 12, 2007, 06:11 PM
Halloween isn't a holiday. It's just a day that was made up so people spend money.

Whether it's a holiday or not, it's a day that many people are busy with halloween events. Apple ain't gonna ship on halloween. No way.

thefunkymunky
Oct 12, 2007, 06:52 PM
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4011/picture13me2.png

;)

FJ218700
Oct 12, 2007, 07:17 PM
^^^ time to change your sig then

jarednt1
Oct 12, 2007, 07:21 PM
If Apple went GM this weekend, there is no reason Apple could not meet a Oct. 26 deadline.

1. All the boxes have been made, all there waiting for is the media. At which point stamping out the media could be done quick.

Alloye
Oct 12, 2007, 07:24 PM
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4011/picture13me2.png

Looks like someone found the magic number in /System/Library/CoreServices/SystemVersion.plist ;)

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE plist PUBLIC "-//Apple//DTD PLIST 1.0//EN" "http://www.apple.com/DTDs/PropertyList-1.0.dtd">
<plist version="1.0">
<dict>
<key>ProductBuildVersion</key>
<string>9A581</string>
<key>ProductCopyright</key>
<string>1983-2007 Apple Inc.</string>
<key>ProductName</key>
<string>Mac OS X</string>
<key>ProductUserVisibleVersion</key>
<string>10.5</string>
<key>ProductVersion</key>
<string>10.5</string>
</dict>
</plist>

psychofreak
Oct 12, 2007, 07:26 PM
Looks like someone found the magic number in /System/Library/CoreServices/SystemVersion.plist ;)
Way to ruin my fun :p

FJ218700
Oct 12, 2007, 07:26 PM
Looks like someone found the magic number in /System/Library/CoreServices/SystemVersion.plist ;)

and how to prevent the black X from appearing over the red button

compuguy1088
Oct 12, 2007, 07:27 PM
Im still thinking Oct 33rd-even if they announced today-I doubt they could get stuff into stores *BEFORE* Oct 26.

For inventory reasons, stores usually like to get stuff a couple days early so they can sort out various issues-put ads in print, displays, signs in windows-distribution-and actually HAVE the product in hand. Not nice to disappoint folks.

So really, Leopard should be in stock physically at all stores by the 24th, which is really cutting it close. TOO close.

Cant you see crowds storming a Best Buy, et, al-to be told-"sorry it didnt come in today maybe tomorrow"
Or said employees selling them out of the back of a just-arrived semi-trailer truck in the front of the store on Oct 28?

Steve wouldnt have to fall on his sword if Leopard came out Nov 2-3-
after all, it is STILL a week in October.

And not 23 release announcements and 5 years later, like VISTA

So your saying that it will never come out? Because there is no such thing as a October 33rd, there are only (usually) 29-31 days in a month, depending on the month :D.

HLdan
Oct 12, 2007, 07:38 PM
I hope they don't ship it. It'd be way better if they released it as a download. 4 gigs would take most of us 2-3 hours to download off a decent server? Probably loads better for the environment too... Vista is available for direct download, it's about time Apple got onboard!

I think that's an awesome idea although I would prefer a boxed version with a pressed DVD from Apple but a download option would be great as you wouldn't have to wait but it may bog down the servers.

FJ218700
Oct 12, 2007, 07:43 PM
I think that's an awesome idea although I would prefer a boxed version with a pressed DVD from Apple but a download option would be great as you wouldn't have to wait but it may bog down the servers.

It would be best if once you submit your order, they go ahead and withdraw from your credit card, give you an unlock code, and let you download and use the GM while you wait for your discs to arrive. (knowing that you would be ineligible to return your unopened Leopard box)

HLdan
Oct 12, 2007, 07:58 PM
Bottom of Apple's Leopard website:
All features referenced in the Mac OS X Leopard website are subject to change.
:)

They can change it to November on Oct. 31st if they wanted to, I figure.
Each week is killing us all a little inside. If not announced this Friday, than most likely next.
I'm starting to think that it will be announced in the next two weeks, to arrive in stores by the beginning of November :(

No, that's not the same thing changing the ship date. Apple said features are subject to change, the date has nothing to do with that. I only hope they change the ugly blue scroll bars to the iTunes ones and make the UI customizable.:)

Sbrocket
Oct 12, 2007, 08:06 PM
Got a link to what you quoted ? ;)

By the way, about that build number you claimed...

:p

Peace
Oct 12, 2007, 08:08 PM
By the way, about that build number you claimed...

:p


Ok.If it means peace then you win.ok? I just got out of the Gore discussion..

you caught me at a good time :)

chrisdazzo
Oct 12, 2007, 08:17 PM
Well, so much for an announcement tonight. Maybe tomorrow or next Tuesday? :confused:

Oh Apple, how you plague my thoughts with transparent menubars, documents from so long ago, and gimongous icons. :p Leopard... come to me.

Multimedia
Oct 12, 2007, 08:24 PM
Well, so much for an announcement tonight. Maybe tomorrow or next Tuesday? :confused:

Oh Apple, how you plague my thoughts with transparent menubars, documents from so long ago, and gimongous icons. :p Leopard... come to me.Al seems to be the theme for the whole weekend. :(

CJD2112
Oct 12, 2007, 08:34 PM
Question: If the developer release is build 9A599, why is the internal build 9A581?

Peace
Oct 12, 2007, 08:36 PM
Question: If the developer release is build 9A599, why is the internal build 9A581?

The last Dev seed was 9a559

Sbrocket
Oct 12, 2007, 09:10 PM
Question: If the developer release is build 9A599, why is the internal build 9A581?

Because the 9A559 (not 9A599) developer seed was weeks ago, and I would certainly expect there is be some increase (and rightly so) in that time. :)

Eidorian
Oct 12, 2007, 09:13 PM
Question: If the developer release is build 9A599, why is the internal build 9A581?I believe that was a user's typo.

Quillz
Oct 12, 2007, 09:14 PM
Why doesn't OS X have a serial key, I've always wondered. Is it because it's ineffective without some sort of activation or that it's just a pain?

Apple could go ahead with downloads if they either used their DRM for something reasonable (software rather than music) or just realise that anyone that can install it has already paid them for a Mac, and that anyone that's going to pirate OS X, will do regardless...
Mac OS X has such low market share, why bother their customers with activation and product keys? Also, unlike Microsoft, Apple is a hardware company. They make little profit from sales of $129 copies of OS X, they get their profit from their computers.

And finally, Apple is also about simplicity and things that "just work." Activation and product keys go against this philosophy.

hob
Oct 12, 2007, 09:28 PM
Cheers for all of your responses everyone. I hadn't considered the cost/MB involved in distributing OS X... But really, it would be my preferred option. If I could have the option to burn my own CD and never see the box, that would be it!

And for the second time - I really don't think Mac OS X having a serial number is a good idea at all, I was just talking it through. And I did already get the whole simplicity/market share/hardware sales thing - just to save repetition :)

iBug2
Oct 12, 2007, 09:50 PM
I hope the new internal build will be available to developers soon, I can't wait to get my hands on it and see if all the bugs have been squashed.

Capt. Obvious
Oct 12, 2007, 10:18 PM
Arriving and shipping are the same thing. Not to mention that they've already promised shipping in october.So leaving for work and arriving at work are the same for you? Does your boss agree (assuming you have a job you actually *go* to)? They're not the same thing at all. If I ship something - anything - today, it won't arrive anywhere until at least tomorrow, and in the meantime, it's in transit.

Like in the old days, when "shipping" meant putting something ON A SHIP and then waiting for it to ARRIVE at its destination. Actual ship or not, it will remain in transit, and therefore unavailable, until it ARRIVES somewhere - like the Apple Store, where I'll be waiting.

Oh, and it would *have* to ship in October in order to arrive in October, since it hasn't shipped yet & it's October now....

Capt. Obvious
Oct 12, 2007, 10:28 PM
If Apple went GM this weekend, there is no reason Apple could not meet a Oct. 26 deadline.

1. All the boxes have been made, all there waiting for is the media. At which point stamping out the media could be done quick.
Apple could well have pre-paid a premium in order to have available stampers waiting & ready for the GM - given the closeness of the timing, it would be foolish of them to have NOT done this. Having done it, they'd then know exactly how long it would take them to churn out the needed media & how many stuffers they'll need at each plant & exactly when to have X FedEx trucks parked outside w/ their tailgates up.

It's not as big an event as "Harry Potter & the Deathly Hallows", but I betcha Apple takes the task of getting it onto shelves every bit as seriously.

I expect them to make October.

Balooba
Oct 12, 2007, 11:15 PM
I would not be surprised if Mac OS X 10.5 will be sold through iTunes Store as well. The price would be the same but some people might prefer downloading over ordering or visit an Apple Store. Especially outside of the US, since the network speeds are higher, there are no Apple stores, and the local Mac-selling retail stores generally suck.

Genghis Khan
Oct 12, 2007, 11:31 PM
N.B.
networks are not all faster outside of the US...only a few countries have faster internet than america:p

but i doubt apple will use iTunes to sell an OS...regardless...for my OS, i want a physical disc:p

and i want it NOW!!!

BKKbill
Oct 13, 2007, 01:24 AM
Every time a Gold Candidate is rejected you burn it with some chemicals so out from the main HQ black smoke will appear. When you finally get a Gold Copy that will be finally you burn some papers so that white smokes appears.

Isn't this something done in that in that Italian town.

iGrouch
Oct 13, 2007, 01:49 AM
It doesn't take much time to send the data to regional duplication facilities around the world and the final boxed product from there to stores.

And perhaps most of the packaging may be in production already.

ncsmith4
Oct 13, 2007, 02:05 AM
Id be willing to bet that the boxes, booklets, stickers, etc is all 100% ready to go. I also wouldnt be surprised if the discs already had the artwork on them already.

iGrouch
Oct 13, 2007, 02:07 AM
i've heard that they will start selling on a specific time everywhere in the world at local time, but does that mean that before that time, they ship every copy to all the countries and then they start selling it?? or is it like the ipod touch where they first announce it, and after a month they still don't have them in some countries??

From what I remember, when Tiger came out, it was sold in Apple Stores in the U.S. sometime in the evening. My shipped copy arrived here in Ireland around 12 noon GMT, hours before the U.S. release, so Apple seems to have synchronised the release so that everybody got their copy on the day.

Funny thing is that Apple distributes products to Europe from their base in Cork and every time I track an order with TNT it goes to the UK, Belgium and back to Dublin. Go figure. They could just drive it up the N8/N9 in 3ó4 hours. Though then again once they hit the gridlock on the outskirts of Dublin it could take another year.

headfuzz
Oct 13, 2007, 02:32 AM
w00t!

That is all.

:D

weckart
Oct 13, 2007, 03:01 AM
Funny thing is that Apple distributes products to Europe from their base in Cork and every time I track an order with TNT it goes to the UK, Belgium and back to Dublin. Go figure. They could just drive it up the N8/N9 in 3ó4 hours.

What would Al Gore have to say about all of those wasted miles? :D

richard.mac
Oct 13, 2007, 07:55 AM
N.B.
networks are not all faster outside of the US...only a few countries have faster internet than america:p

hate to break it to you Genghis but check this out http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/Images/commentarynews/broadbandspeedchart.jpg

haha even iceland has faster broadband than america! im not sure about the units of the graph though as we're up to 30 mbits/s with cable now. it may be the actual download speed rather than the theoretical.

psychofreak
Oct 13, 2007, 08:03 AM
but i doubt apple will use iTunes to sell an OS...regardless...for my OS, i want a physical disc:p

and i want it NOW!!!

I doubt it for 10.5, but I think its likely for 10.6...I liked the suggestion that once you paid for an order of the disk from Apple's website, you could get a key to download the GM...

The use of disks is declining in many areas, especially software distribution. The biggest change to this would be if videogames started being downloadable, which I hope will come with the next generation...

shompa
Oct 13, 2007, 09:03 AM
Apple should ship 10.5 on a USB stick. Better loadtimes and so on...

Since Apple buys flash so cheap, they could sell the USB version for only 10-15 dollar more then the DVD version.

Optical medium sux. Flash is the way to go.

psychofreak
Oct 13, 2007, 09:06 AM
Apple should ship 10.5 on a USB stick. Better loadtimes and so on...

Since Apple buys flash so cheap, they could sell the USB version for only 10-15 dollar more then the DVD version.

Optical medium sux. Flash is the way to go.

Maybe by 10.6, but flash sticks aren't that cheap...

crossifixio
Oct 13, 2007, 09:13 AM
Really looking forward to Leopard :D A GM is needed soon if we are going to get our hands on this OS in time. Any body knows what the time scale for something to go from GM to retail?

psychofreak
Oct 13, 2007, 09:14 AM
Really looking forward to Leopard :D A GM is needed soon if we are going to get our hands on this OS in time. Any body knows what the time scale for something to go from GM to retail?

Usually around two weeks...so it should come any day now...

shompa
Oct 13, 2007, 09:16 AM
Maybe by 10.6, but flash sticks aren't that cheap...

4 gig USB sticks are arround 30 dollars?. Apple has 50% discount with Sammy = arround 15dollars..

But I could also just be dreaming. I have destroyed to many DVD-r disks in my life inkl a lot of disks from 2001 with laserrot. :)

None Such
Oct 13, 2007, 10:07 AM
What would Al Gore have to say about all of those wasted miles? :D

It reminds me of all that wasted space and wasted energy in my mansions.

FJ218700
Oct 13, 2007, 10:52 AM
I doubt it for 10.5, but I think its likely for 10.6...I liked the suggestion that once you paid for an order of the disk from Apple's website, you could get a key to download the GM...

The use of disks is declining in many areas, especially software distribution. The biggest change to this would be if videogames started being downloadable, which I hope will come with the next generation...

hopefully the release of a sub-notebook sans-optical drive will necessitate this distribution strategy come 10.6

Ish
Oct 13, 2007, 11:28 AM
hate to break it to you Genghis but check this out http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/Images/commentarynews/broadbandspeedchart.jpg

haha even iceland has faster broadband than america! albeit australia (my country) isnt that far away. im not sure about the units of the graph though as we're up to 30 mbits/s with cable now. it may be the actual download speed rather than the theoretical.

If I'm reading it correctly, that chart is the average broadband speed, so might reflect the proportion of people with faster/slower connections rather than speed capability.

psychofreak
Oct 13, 2007, 11:30 AM
hopefully the release of a sub-notebook sans-optical drive will necessitate this distribution strategy come 10.6

Maybe...or maybe it will come on flash drives...

cohibadad
Oct 13, 2007, 11:35 AM
4 gig USB sticks are arround 30 dollars?. Apple has 50% discount with Sammy = arround 15dollars..

But I could also just be dreaming. I have destroyed to many DVD-r disks in my life inkl a lot of disks from 2001 with laserrot. :)

Leopard is 6+ Gb.

notsofatjames
Oct 13, 2007, 11:36 AM
I doubt it for 10.5, but I think its likely for 10.6...I liked the suggestion that once you paid for an order of the disk from Apple's website, you could get a key to download the GM...

The use of disks is declining in many areas, especially software distribution. The biggest change to this would be if videogames started being downloadable, which I hope will come with the next generation...

I dont think for OS distribution we can do away with disks. How would you trouble-shoot a faulty mac, or re-install the OS once the hard-disk has been erased. Unless there was an embedded OS that downloaded the latest OS... thats just frying my brain.

And on the PS3 you can download a few games, game demo's and stuff. But could you imagine having to downoad about 60Gb of data. It would take days even if internet speeds were to double.

FJ218700
Oct 13, 2007, 11:37 AM
Maybe...or maybe it will come on flash drives...

maybe, but that would require 8 GB flash chips. Even if the price of an 8 GB chip is ~$20 by 10.6, that's still a huge amount of money for apple to loose versus a DVD or a network download. I don't see them raising the price of the OS up considering ~$129 US has been the staple for a few releases now.

that being said, I would prefer a flash-based install rather than a network download. Perhaps only adopters of the rumored sub-notebook would be eligible for the flash option

Eidorian
Oct 13, 2007, 11:38 AM
hopefully the release of a sub-notebook sans-optical drive will necessitate this distribution strategy come 10.6

maybe, but that would require 8 GB flash chips. Even if the price of an 8 GB chip is ~$20 by 10.6, that's still a huge amount of money for apple to loose versus a DVD or a network download. I don't see them raising the price of the OS up considering ~$129 US has been the staple for a few releases now.

that being said, I would prefer a flash-based install rather than a network download. Perhaps only adopters of the rumored sub-notebook would be eligible for the flash optionNotebooks without an internal optical drive still come with an external optical drive. :rolleyes:

FJ218700
Oct 13, 2007, 11:41 AM
Notebooks without an internal optical drive still come with an external optical drive. :rolleyes:

let's hope Apple wouldn't be that cheap :o

Eidorian
Oct 13, 2007, 11:42 AM
let's hope Apple wouldn't be that cheap :oThey weren't in the past with their subnotebooks.

Cloudsurfer
Oct 13, 2007, 12:21 PM
I doubt it for 10.5, but I think its likely for 10.6...I liked the suggestion that once you paid for an order of the disk from Apple's website, you could get a key to download the GM...

The use of disks is declining in many areas, especially software distribution. The biggest change to this would be if videogames started being downloadable, which I hope will come with the next generation...

Well, in a way, they already are. Wii's Virtual Console is a leader in this area I believe, which acts like Nintendo's very own iTunes for older and current generation games (in the near future).

I would love for Leopard to be downloadable. It saves the hassle of having to be at home to recieve the physical disc.

phillipjfry
Oct 13, 2007, 12:22 PM
If Apple is expected to release Leopard this October, the rumors will have to start spewing this week about advertising posters being shipped to stores, and people being trained on Leopard-related things

#include <stdio.h>
int main (void) {
int i;
for (i = 0; i < 10; ++i)
printf ("Welcome to MacOS X 10.5!\n");
return 0;
}

Ok, the Safari spelling checker doesn't like it, but to me it looks bug-free and it has a loop that is guaranteed to exit :D

I could never remember the diff between ++i and i++
Coding is a devilish sea hag in which there is no taming :(

Eidorian
Oct 13, 2007, 12:42 PM
I could never remember the diff between ++i and i++
Coding is a devilish sea hag in which there is no taming :(Prefix and postfix increment.

psychofreak
Oct 13, 2007, 01:02 PM
let's hope Apple wouldn't be that cheap :o

I'd gladly give up the luxury of having my optical drive internal if it meant my Macbook was thinner and lighter...

osxrulz
Oct 13, 2007, 01:09 PM
I've got some kind of addiction with updating things, so I'd love to see a not-so-perfect Leopard at launch and a mega update a week later :)

Not if you rely on Wi-Fi for your primary connection to teh intarwebs...

seashellz2
Oct 13, 2007, 01:13 PM
>>Because there is no such thing as a October 33rd


are you ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN of this?

FJ218700
Oct 13, 2007, 02:09 PM
I'd gladly give up the luxury of having my optical drive internal if it meant my Macbook was thinner and lighter...

me too, was saying I hope they that include an external optical drive in the box if they get rid of them from notebooks

psychofreak
Oct 13, 2007, 02:14 PM
me too, was saying I hope they that include an external optical drive in the box if they get rid of them from notebooks

Yes, hopefully optical media will be dead for my needs (not high-end video, or large amounts of data)when the time comes for me to get a new Mac...

Manic Mouse
Oct 13, 2007, 02:16 PM
Hopefully this build will see the death of aqua with unified scroll-bars.

Kyonn
Oct 13, 2007, 02:32 PM
Guys Iím new to macs and have a quick question.

Iím plan on purchasing a refurbished macbook in a few days and I was wondering if maybe I should wait until after 10.5 is released. I guess what Iím asking is: will refurbished apple products comes with the latest OS (10.5) or will they come with the OS they originally shipped with

Cloudsurfer
Oct 13, 2007, 02:32 PM
Hopefully this build will see the death of aqua with unified scroll-bars.

I wouldn't bet on it.

Peace
Oct 13, 2007, 02:33 PM
Refurbished Macs will ship with the current O/S

psychofreak
Oct 13, 2007, 02:35 PM
I wouldn't bet on it.

Neither would I, but I can hope for the grey scrollbar from here (http://www.apple.com/itunes/)...and checkboxes etc to fit...

Kyonn
Oct 13, 2007, 02:45 PM
Refurbished Macs will ship with the current O/S

Thanks for the info, I guess I should wait the extra 2 weeks but man its gonna be hard.

psychofreak
Oct 13, 2007, 02:47 PM
Thanks for the info, I guess I should wait the extra 2 weeks but man its gonna be hard.

Makes getting it in the end even sweeter :)

Manic Mouse
Oct 13, 2007, 02:47 PM
Neither would I, but I can hope for the grey scrollbar from here (http://www.apple.com/itunes/)...and checkboxes etc to fit...

Either would be nice. Aqua just doesn't fit in with the new "unified" look. Which isn't even unified due to the presence of aqua elements like the scroll-bars.

Ti_Poussin
Oct 13, 2007, 09:39 PM
Anybody have test the new Finder in X.5 ? how is it in term of multi tasking? That my main complaint about X.1 X.2 X.3 X.4, is having a finder that hang up when trying to connect to a remote host.

Finder is still carbon? hope not, it's one of the aspect of OS X I don't like so far (I have been using it since X.0). There's also some others minors thing like
- Linking with -static doesn't work, crt0.o is not there ( I know it's bad, but I'm not coding everything I compile!)
- NTFS writing
- The network browser is simply awfull (out of context of everything, a real pain in the a**)
- With every release within last year I have seen minor features going away or be lost in some update that I miss. Just a few example...
* QuickTime 7 seam so cripple in editing function (maybe I'm just lost ?!?).
* DVD player doesn't have the Open Video_TS folder, dragNdrop still work on it.

Is Apple voluntary locking features? I begin to less like them during the past few years. I was totally blow away when os X was realease, but I think since X.3 they have take a weird turn that I really begin to dislike more and more over the time.

Is the new samba implementation more reliable?
X.1 to X.3 was fun, the OS was speeding thing, since X.4 it get more bloated and slower.

Still, it better then Vista or XP IMO, way more user friendly then Linux (I don't have this much time to spend just for making my machine work). But I hope they will continue to improve what REALLY matter in the few next release, yes dashboard is funny, spaces (even if I already have Desktop Manager that do the same thing for over 2 years) and begin to:
- make the OS more speedier
- improve the networking
- update Spotlight (never have been as quick as Apple pretend it to be, bubt still way better then Windows search version)
- Surround Sound fully supported by everything
- Finish some application Dictionnary, eeehh, there's some other language then english you know
-iChat is so useless outside of USA, AIM is funny for them, but for the rest of us? what is the point?! Support for jabber is not nearly polish enough to be of any real usage. Yahoo, ICQ, MSN support? So what's the point of iChat if you can't speak/videoconference with other people?! Yes it's a great application, but with nobody on it it's plain useless. Yeah the new funny photobooth effect are cool, but couldn't they make it more versatile before ading those kind of features?
- Feature to be out of the way? .Mac everywhere, noooo, make it a plug-in installation, I don't want this in my OS and menu by default

If anybody can let me know if they solve some of those problems in X.5 I may run to buy it out, else I may wait.

MikeTheC
Oct 13, 2007, 09:58 PM
seeems a bit too tight timewise to me, maybe they should just offer it for downloaddd? with an activation of some sort that can then make it work for release day :)

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks any kind of concept of "activation" belongs anywhere *near* any of Apple's (or anyone elses') products should be taken out back and smacked.

No, what should happen, pal, is that Apple should be willing to let it slip a few days if that's what's required, because I'd rather have a stable OS than a buggy one, and since I have no plans to be in line on release day +20, much less release day itself, don't count me in that ridiculous contingent of users who would push for a release from Apple "no matter what". What an impatient society we are!

MikeTheC
Oct 13, 2007, 10:01 PM
I'd gladly give up the luxury of having my optical drive internal if it meant my Macbook was thinner and lighter...

Well, having worked for Sony which has made on two different occasions laptops which did not have internal optical drives, let me be the first to tell you how bad an idea that is.

psychofreak
Oct 13, 2007, 10:06 PM
Well, having worked for Sony which has made on two different occasions laptops which did not have internal optical drives, let me be the first to tell you how bad an idea that is.
What were the problems? Do you not think Apple could pull it off?

MikeTheC
Oct 13, 2007, 10:23 PM
Whoa, wait a minute! That's quite a mouthful there, dude.

- Finish some application Dictionnary, eeehh, there's some other language then english you know

Huh? What did you just say? I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I suspect English (note the capital initial letter) is not your primary language.

... ( I know it's bad, but I'm not coding everything I compile!)

You're not coding everything you... Hmm... I'm sorry, but that just flat out doesn't make sense. How can you compile something if you don't code it first? Or do you just expect that XCode or GCC (or whatever) will just magically invent compiled code out of thin air for you?

- With every release within last year I have seen minor features going away or be lost in some update that I miss. Just a few example...
* QuickTime 7 seam so cripple in editing function (maybe I'm just lost ?!?).
* DVD player doesn't have the Open Video_TS folder, dragNdrop still work on it.

Is Apple voluntary locking features? I begin to less like them during the past few years. I was totally blow away when os X was realease, but I think since X.3 they have take a weird turn that I really begin to dislike more and more over the time.

and

-iChat is so useless outside of USA, AIM is funny for them, but for the rest of us? what is the point?! Support for jabber is not nearly polish enough to be of any real usage. Yahoo, ICQ, MSN support? So what's the point of iChat if you can't speak/videoconference with other people?! Yes it's a great application, but with nobody on it it's plain useless. Yeah the new funny photobooth effect are cool, but couldn't they make it more versatile before ading those kind of features?

and

- Feature to be out of the way? .Mac everywhere, noooo, make it a plug-in installation, I don't want this in my OS and menu by default

and

- NTFS writing

Well, first off, if you don't like a proprietary, commercial OS vendor making such changes to their product (and while what you're complaining about doesn't directly impact me, I'll grant the legitimacy of what you're saying) then maybe you really should consider an alternative. It's certainly an option I've been considering and evaluating for some time.

Second off, NTFS is a proprietary file system and owned by Microsoft. They're the ones holding it close to their chest; they're the ones restricting any and all third-party development, enhancement and extensibility. If you don't like that, complain to Redmond, not Cupertino.

Third (and hopefully lastly) if you want a chat client that supports the standards you want it to support, then why not look at something like, for instance, Adium? Yes, you're right: Apple should look at supporting more of the commonly-used standards out there. And I'm not trying to let them "off the hook" in that regard; however, you have a brain, a mouse and a keyboard, so use something different.

MikeTheC
Oct 13, 2007, 10:30 PM
What were the problems? Do you not think Apple could pull it off?

It's not a matter of "pulling it off", as you say. It's a matter of that kind of design is intrinsically flawed as a concept. Basically, *not* having an optical drive built-in means having to carry one with you, separately, everywhere you go so that any time you need to stick in a disc (CD, DVD, DVD-DL, etc.) you can do it. Which then means having this stupid a** external box hanging off your otherwise aesthetically-pleasing lappy.

And if you forget the drive, or lose it, or it dies, you'll have to go get another one.

Now, the way Sony implemented the interface, on the earlier series it used a proprietary PC/MCIA-type interface, and on the second series it connected via USB, but in BOTH cases you had to buy the whole shebang from Sony, since third-party optical drives would NOT boot the computer (thus making it useless if you needed to nuke-n-pave), and then as that equipment was no longer being manufactured and eventually the product just simply was no longer anywhere in the distribution chain, those laptops are now basically worthless because you simply cannot nuke them and may or may not, depending on the model, be able to get a non-Sony external optical drive to work.

Now, clearly, Apple isn't Sony, and so this could all be rectified by an external drive simply attaching via Firewire. But it's still a bad way to design a notebook.

hypopraxia
Oct 13, 2007, 10:33 PM
wow. this is coming down to the wire...

I wonder if it will have to be available in limited quantity at 11:59pm on Wednesday the 31st?

My sides still hurt. Haha... whew. We'll see, eh?

psychofreak
Oct 13, 2007, 10:35 PM
Now, clearly, Apple isn't Sony, and so this could all be rectified by an external drive simply attaching via Firewire. But it's still a bad way to design a notebook.

So far, on this Macbook I have used the optical drive ONCE, and only for reinstalling the OS...a subnotebook would be a secondary machine for many, so having an optical drive is hardly necessary...

Ti_Poussin
Oct 13, 2007, 10:45 PM
In answer to MikeTheC

1- Indeed English is not my main language.
2- I'm not coding "myself" everything I compile. A lock down feature on purpose (check the Apple Developper Web on crt0.o unavaibility in OS X to understand why), you have to replace a part of the system with Darwin release if you want to achieve this. You normally do this when porting stuff to OS X.
3- Yeah NTFS is own code by Microsoft, still Linux have a writer that is working (beta I agree, but let me use it! having to pass by a Fuse coded by the Google staff is a bit ridiculous).
4- I already use Adium (which still lack the video conferencing, with aMSN and Mercury to do so)

I don't say OS X is bad, just that I think Apple is make too much eye candy over features those days.

psychofreak
Oct 13, 2007, 10:49 PM
- Yeah NTFS is own code by Microsoft, still Linux have a writer that is working (beta I agree, but let me use it! having to pass by a Fuse coded by the Google staff is a bit ridiculous).
Try looking at this (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=351476&highlight=paragon) thread :)

phillipjfry
Oct 13, 2007, 11:35 PM
I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks any kind of concept of "activation" belongs anywhere *near* any of Apple's (or anyone elses') products should be taken out back and smacked.
...

Activation is one of the few things in life that kills me a little inside every single time I come across it :(

Ti_Poussin
Oct 13, 2007, 11:55 PM
Try looking at this (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=351476&highlight=paragon) thread :)

Sweet thanks a lot, I didn't saw it before!

ABM
Oct 14, 2007, 05:01 AM
What's about minimum hardware requirements?

Genghis Khan
Oct 14, 2007, 05:14 AM
at this stage it's a guess

but i'd say

PowerPC G4 with 1.25Ghz or greater (maybe 1Ghz)
512Mb RAM (you may get away with 256Mb, but it's not worth it with that little)
and Firewire and DVD-ROM

NicP
Oct 14, 2007, 05:26 AM
It's not a matter of "pulling it off", as you say. It's a matter of that kind of design is intrinsically flawed as a concept. Basically, *not* having an optical drive built-in means having to carry one with you, separately, everywhere you go so that any time you need to stick in a disc (CD, DVD, DVD-DL, etc.) you can do it. Which then means having this stupid a** external box hanging off your otherwise aesthetically-pleasing lappy.

And if you forget the drive, or lose it, or it dies, you'll have to go get another one.

Now, the way Sony implemented the interface, on the earlier series it used a proprietary PC/MCIA-type interface, and on the second series it connected via USB, but in BOTH cases you had to buy the whole shebang from Sony, since third-party optical drives would NOT boot the computer (thus making it useless if you needed to nuke-n-pave), and then as that equipment was no longer being manufactured and eventually the product just simply was no longer anywhere in the distribution chain, those laptops are now basically worthless because you simply cannot nuke them and may or may not, depending on the model, be able to get a non-Sony external optical drive to work.

Now, clearly, Apple isn't Sony, and so this could all be rectified by an external drive simply attaching via Firewire. But it's still a bad way to design a notebook.

If the drive dies inside the computer (which has happened to my macbook) you need to get a new one too. I don't see your point? Sure the drive could be lost, but an internal drive could just as easily fail and you are in the same position.

I used to use the optical drive all the time, now i mostly use USB flash disks. Macbooks will boot file of a flash disk, so you can always reinstall the os that way if you have to.

Genghis Khan
Oct 14, 2007, 05:45 AM
optical drives can fail...but i prefer to live in a world where it's expected they won't

the point of a laptop is that it is convenient and portable

swagi
Oct 14, 2007, 08:53 AM
I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks any kind of concept of "activation" belongs anywhere *near* any of Apple's (or anyone elses') products should be taken out back and smacked.

No, what should happen, pal, is that Apple should be willing to let it slip a few days if that's what's required, because I'd rather have a stable OS than a buggy one, and since I have no plans to be in line on release day +20, much less release day itself, don't count me in that ridiculous contingent of users who would push for a release from Apple "no matter what". What an impatient society we are!

<Off topic>Apple also uses concepts of activation, believe it or not. Maybe you should just shell out the money to use Little Snitch. Then you'd have a clue, how often Apple Apps are calling home. The fact, they don't use the data against you, doesn't mean that they don't collect it.

Personally I had to use a serial no. for FCS, and all apps phoned to Apple on first start. And I guess they could also be able to implement some stuff like Microsoft with the "Windows Genuine Advantage"-Scheme.

Basically I neither blame Apple nor M$ or Adobe for implementing these schemes. I just wish they would use their collected data against piracy, the way they could. Take the IP, track the user of pirated software down, and sue the hell out of him/her.</Off topic>

Though the suspense is killing me, I'd rather have a solid 10.5.0 in December, than a rushed one in October. I have used every commercially available version of OS X as 10.x.0 versions, and boy, those were bad ones.

Believe it or not, I'm afraid that Leopard will ship with some major stuff. Honestly I'm prepared for some heavy Time Machine bug killing some amount of data. But I could also imagine some nasty Safari issues (version 3.0.0 on Windows, anyone?). I saw the WWDC build running, and I really had problems with the menu bar (hope they fixed that).

Therefore this will be the first time, I won't pre-order a new Mac OS. And now jump, little lemmings, cause the Leopard will be there end of October :D:D:D

ktlx
Oct 14, 2007, 09:40 AM
Believe it or not, I'm afraid that Leopard will ship with some major stuff. ... Therefore this will be the first time, I won't pre-order a new Mac OS.
That's where I'm at too. This is the first release since OS 9 arrived that I won't jump on right away. Tiger works fine for me, and while I'd really like to have Xcode 3.0 and some of the other features right away, the fact that Apple hasn't identified a GM release yet scares me.

I've decided to take a wait and see approach. Man... I'd never thought I'd say that about Leopard. :eek:

psychofreak
Oct 14, 2007, 09:43 AM
What's about minimum hardware requirements?

Both your Macs will run it, but maybe not that smoothly if you don't have much RAM...867MHz is the cut off...

mklos
Oct 14, 2007, 10:03 AM
Believe it or not, I'm afraid that Leopard will ship with some major stuff. Honestly I'm prepared for some heavy Time Machine bug killing some amount of data. But I could also imagine some nasty Safari issues (version 3.0.0 on Windows, anyone?). I saw the WWDC build running, and I really had problems with the menu bar (hope they fixed that).

Therefore this will be the first time, I won't pre-order a new Mac OS. And now jump, little lemmings, cause the Leopard will be there end of October :D:D:D

So you're making your decision of whether or not to buy Leopard based off from a beta you saw running nearly 4 months ago (WWDC Build)???? I guess you don't believe in the word progression. There are very few major issues with the current build of Leopard. There will ALWAYS be bugs in an OS, always!

Time Machine has been finished in Leopard for ages. I can't see any major issues there and it worked fine for me the last time I used it. I did use Leopard betas for about a month or so. Yes, that may not be enough time to see any major issues, but I haven't heard of any issues with Time Machine from any people that I know have the beta(s) installed.

I hardly think you can compare the Windows version of Safari to the one shipping in Leopard. Come on, you have to know better than that!

Seems like we go through this crap every time a new OS comes out. Every says they don't have confidence in Apple and its going to have major issues, and yet people buy it anyways and most are happy. There will always be people who will have issues from the start. Happens in both the Windows and Mac worlds. Its just a part of upgrading something major. Its impossible to build an OS upgrade that will be 100% problem free. Everyone has kind of a unique setup in some way so its impossible to also base an OS from 1 person's experience because there are so many variables its unexplainable. Most issues you will see when installing any new OS is when people do an upgrade.

I myself believe its the perfect time to erase the HD and reload it fresh with the new OS since it likely hasn't been done since the last OS release. The OS doesn't take very long to install (10-20 minutes on most Macs), there isn't 300MB of updates to run for the OS. The only time consuming thing you have to do is re-install your apps and transfer your information back over, which may or may not even be time consuming. If you do this, then you know without a doubt that you'll have a smooth transition unless there is an issue with something in the OS itself. You don't have to worry about conflicting files, prefs, etc....

chrisdazzo
Oct 14, 2007, 11:50 AM
We can only hope for an October 26th release now.

Eidorian
Oct 14, 2007, 11:52 AM
We can only hope for an October 26th release now.http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=368590

And read the article's comments.

Willis
Oct 14, 2007, 12:00 PM
not long now.. have to say, not sure if it's worth the wait. will be interesting to see what all the over 'under the hood' improvements have been made

chrisdazzo
Oct 14, 2007, 12:27 PM
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=368590

And read the article's comments.
Yeah, right after I posted that... I changed it though, so settle down.

twoodcc
Oct 14, 2007, 12:56 PM
We can only hope for an October 26th release now.

i'm hoping for an announcement either tomorrow or tuesday

rented mule
Oct 14, 2007, 02:14 PM
i'm hoping for an announcement either tomorrow or tuesday

I'm hoping for chocolates and red licorice...either tomorrow or tuesday. Mmmm MMM!

rented mule
Oct 14, 2007, 02:16 PM
Activation is one of the few things in life that kills me a little inside every single time I come across it :(

Activation is one of the few things in android lives that makes them live a little inside every single time they come across it. Lore loves you.

Telp
Oct 14, 2007, 02:18 PM
Well it will have to be announced soon if its going to be released this month. Im sure its already in production, and when they have the numbers they want they will announce it. Whether ot not its GM yet, it will be announced when they have the numbers, and then theyll just release something via software update when users go to install.

Multimedia
Oct 14, 2007, 03:58 PM
Well it will have to be announced soon if its going to be released this month. Im sure its already in production, and when they have the numbers they want they will announce it. Whether ot not its GM yet, it will be announced when they have the numbers, and then theyll just release something via software update when users go to install.I doubt Software Update will deliver 10.5.1 for a few weeks. :rolleyes:

thefunkymunky
Oct 14, 2007, 04:00 PM
I doubt Software Update will deliver 10.5.1 for a few weeks. :rolleyes:

Depends whether there is a major bug in 10.5 that needs a very prompt fix. Remember the 10.3 fiasco,:rolleyes:

Eidorian
Oct 14, 2007, 04:01 PM
I doubt Software Update will deliver 10.5.1 for a few weeks. :rolleyes:Barely over two weeks between 10.4.0 and 10.4.1.

psychofreak
Oct 14, 2007, 04:03 PM
Barely over two weeks between 10.4.0 and 10.4.1.

I would like to hear comparisons between 10.4.0 and the latest developer build of Leopard...

Eidorian
Oct 14, 2007, 04:04 PM
I would like to hear comparisons between 10.4.0 and the latest developer build of Leopard...Almost 900 days?

Peace
Oct 14, 2007, 04:06 PM
I would like to hear comparisons between 10.4.0 and the latest developer build of Leopard...

ummm....well..

In 10.5 the calendar on the dock actually changes dates every day! :p

ImperialX
Oct 14, 2007, 04:25 PM
I would like to hear comparisons between 10.4.0 and the latest developer build of Leopard...

I think he meant that he want to hear about some issues 10.4.0 had.