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MacRumors
Oct 15, 2007, 02:15 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Amidst the growing excitement over the upcoming Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) release, we've overlooked news of Apple's ongoing progress with a final update to Mac OS X 10.4.

Apple has continued with frequent seeds of Mac OS X 10.4.11 to developers. The most recent seed was released to developers last week on October 9th, bringing the development seeds up to builds 8S2161/8S161 for Intel/PowerPC.

The latest updates provide additional bug fixes to Webkit for Dashboard, but there remain some issues with existing Widgets.

Apple has also been hard at work on the final version of Mac OS X Leopard which reached Gold Master candidate last week and should reach Gold Master this week.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/15/apple-still-working-on-10-4-11/)



Marble
Oct 15, 2007, 02:18 AM
Glad to see this basket still has an egg in it.

DMann
Oct 15, 2007, 02:18 AM
Hopefully this will include a fix for the new iMac video card issues.....

Lord Nerdos
Oct 15, 2007, 02:18 AM
Woo Hoo! 10.4.11 for my "old" mac pro... :D

RobMccormack
Oct 15, 2007, 02:18 AM
We Want Leopard!

mcarnes
Oct 15, 2007, 02:23 AM
Meh. Tiger is history.

IEatApples
Oct 15, 2007, 02:23 AM
Hope it will be stable as a rock… and by "rock" – I mean mountain chain! :D

… but, I'm still getting Leopard as soon as possible!!! :cool::)

BlueRevolution
Oct 15, 2007, 02:28 AM
Amidst the growing excitement over the upcoming Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) release, we've overloaded news of Apple's ongoing progress with a final update to Mac OS X 10.4.


Do you mean "overlooked", by chance?

Multimedia
Oct 15, 2007, 02:37 AM
Duh... :rolleyes:

I'm overloaded with anticipation anxiety Arn. ;)

minik
Oct 15, 2007, 02:38 AM
Although we don't have an official Leopard system requirement yet, it's a good news for those Macs which cannot run Leopard and yet to have a rock solid 10.4.x system.

Multimedia
Oct 15, 2007, 02:43 AM
Although we don't have an official Leopard system requirement yet, it's a good news for those Macs which cannot run Leopard and yet to have a rock solid 10.4.x system.For many's sake, I hope they lower the minimum speed limit back down to 800 MHz although the video cards on those systems may be another reason Apple doesn't want to let people run Leopard on them. :confused:

tyr2
Oct 15, 2007, 02:47 AM
Here's hoping the Cisco VPN reliability issues in 10.4.10 are resolved. ISRT hearing something a few builds ago that they were looking into it, so I'm hoping it's now fixed.

samh004
Oct 15, 2007, 02:52 AM
Glad to see they're trying to patch the last few things up before moving on.

Do you mean "overlooked", by chance?

That's what I thought. Must of been thinking about something else.

queshy
Oct 15, 2007, 03:07 AM
It seems that if apple actually follows through with the october release date, leopard will get released at the last second of the last day in october...here's to hoping it will come earlier...but at least we know with 99.999% certainty that by next month at this time we will all have leopard on our machines!

djgamble
Oct 15, 2007, 03:08 AM
I guess a question... who says Leopard won't install on machines running at 800mhz? My guess is 800mhz or lower won't be supported (or recommended), but one will be able to install it on those machines. If not I'm sure someone will be able to hack it to install as I can't see any technical reasons why it won't work.

But if the testers said it was too slow on 800mhz machines then maybe it is just too slow, and users are better sticking with 10.4... its been in development for some time now and 800mhz machines are getting old! (At least 3 generations old! G4, G5, Intel...)

I know how it feels to be locked out of new software, but with technology that's often the best way to make the new software better for users of more modern hardware; which at the end of the day is what reviewers and critics look at the performance of!

But I guess on the flip side... is the OS slower if an 800mhz machine is now no longer fast enough to use it? My common sense would tell me yes, if it's more resource hungry on older hardware then it's more resource hungry on modern hardware. So please Apple, don't let this be like Windows Vista, where both old and new hardware suffer in terms of speed!

gikku
Oct 15, 2007, 03:26 AM
for all the G3s and low-end G4s.
Tiger rocks!! :):)

Cloudsurfer
Oct 15, 2007, 03:52 AM
I guess a question... who says Leopard won't install on machines running at 800mhz? My guess is 800mhz or lower won't be supported (or recommended), but one will be able to install it on those machines. If not I'm sure someone will be able to hack it to install as I can't see any technical reasons why it won't work.

An error message appears during installation, saying at least an 800MHz G4 is needed to proceed.

offwidafairies
Oct 15, 2007, 04:01 AM
It seems that if apple actually follows through with the october release date, leopard will get released at the last second of the last day in october...here's to hoping it will come earlier...but at least we know with 99.999% certainty that by next month at this time we will all have leopard on our machines!

Im over waiting. But what choice do I have? I suppose any update is a good thing. But Im getting impatient about when the baby is coming.

naco
Oct 15, 2007, 04:04 AM
I don't see why they wouldn't continue to work on Tiger. They need to make it the best possible. Not EVERYONE and their mother is going to go out and buy Leopard as soon as it hits stores (A contradiction to what the lines will look like). I know of people that would still have been running Panther if they didn't get a FREE bump up when they got their computers fixed through Apple. So what this really shows is how much Apple wants to make everything perfect so the consumers get the absolute best no matter how current it is. Think about it, some people still run their G3 iBooks. :rolleyes:

JFreak
Oct 15, 2007, 04:12 AM
Many only upgrade when forced to, so no, Tiger is not dead. For example close to every music studio running the latest Protools HD sit tight on Tiger version 10.4.8 for as long as Digidesign blesses Leopard. It might take a while so no upgrades this year.

Not everyone has nothing better to do than just wait for an upgrade...

kwfl
Oct 15, 2007, 05:13 AM
this is good news, as i will still use nice Tiger in one of my computers.

madmax_2069
Oct 15, 2007, 05:42 AM
i was wondering if Apple was still working on tiger.

but i wonder why the finder version in 10.4.10 still say's 10.4.7 ???

i do hope they stick with this update and nail most of the bugs. if there is bugs in 10.4.10 you want fixed then you need to report them to Apple http://bugreport.apple.com/ for any chance to have them fixed, this is the best way for Apple to know about bugs in OS X cause telling people here isn't a way to let Apple know that said issues need fixed.

Since Tiger is the last version for many capable Mac's, i wonder how long it will take for People/company's to start dropping support (like 10.2 10.3 is)??? i do hope tiger dont loose support from 3rd party developers any time soon.

Schtumple
Oct 15, 2007, 05:46 AM
My friend has now become fedup of waiting and is buying an iMac tomorrow, tbh, I'd rather wait untill the applications I use ACTUALLY WORK on leopard before buying it...

I'd rather have a fully-stable 10.4.11 than a could-be-stable-but-we-don't-really-know-yet 10.5.0

psychofreak
Oct 15, 2007, 05:53 AM
My friend has now become fedup of waiting and is buying an iMac tomorrow, tbh, I'd rather wait untill the applications I use ACTUALLY WORK on leopard before buying it...

I'd rather have a fully-stable 10.4.11 than a could-be-stable-but-we-don't-really-know-yet 10.5.0

If he waits until they announce a release date, he gets Tiger on the iMac, and doesn't have to pay the $129 for Leopard, which he can then choose to install it when he wants...

Stridder44
Oct 15, 2007, 05:55 AM
An error message appears during installation, saying at least an 800MHz G4 is needed to proceed.


WAHOO!! Im in the clear.

bigandy
Oct 15, 2007, 05:56 AM
Why not? Halo 1 was ported to Mac, I don't see why Halo 2 and 3 shouldn't also be ported. Especially with Cider and all these days.

Not so much ported, but originally written for Mac OS... I think that's the reason they released it.

In the PC arena, Halo is too much of a money spinner and tie in to Vista for them to turn about and say it can come to Mac OS too. They're being careful to give people as much reason to move to Vista as possible. ;)

wescravn
Oct 15, 2007, 05:58 AM
Apple definitely missed their deadline for an October Leopard release, well see it in stores maybe late November. Not sure why, since the os seems pretty stable in the late betas n stuff. I'd rather not have them pull a microsoft and place the updates in a service pack 1 or something (10.5.1-2). So I'm happy their taking their time.

FYI: Protools availability for leopard is 180 days after GR (general release) so that means 2008 (mid probably). Don't know why digidesign can't test on the betas, bt I guess they want to test the final.

Oh well, that's my lowdown.

twoodcc
Oct 15, 2007, 06:01 AM
we want a release date for leopard. this is good to know that they are working on this, but really, we just want leopard

wozzlewoozle
Oct 15, 2007, 06:09 AM
i was wondering if Apple was still working on tiger.

but i wonder why the finder version in 10.4.10 still say's 10.4.7 ???




I would guess the versions are not necesarily related. It probably depends on how many updates to finder are made? I'm runing 10.3.9 on my emac, yet finder is 10.3.3

Bring on, 10.4.11 for my powerbook. I probably won't bother with 10.5 for it. However, about to start a new job and they will be buying me a new laptop, so 'cmon Apple announce 10.5 already!

doemel
Oct 15, 2007, 06:22 AM
That's what I thought. Must of been thinking about something else.

Are you sure?

anthonyb
Oct 15, 2007, 06:35 AM
Oct 26th


Believe.

Genghis Khan
Oct 15, 2007, 06:36 AM
how much of a sacrifice to the OS will apple have to make to get it out october 31st? as in how big will 10.5.1 be:p

JFreak
Oct 15, 2007, 06:38 AM
Since Tiger is the last version for many capable Mac's, i wonder how long it will take for People/company's to start dropping support (like 10.2 10.3 is)??? i do hope tiger dont loose support from 3rd party developers any time soon.

Generally speaking 10.3.9 is almost as compatible as Tiger. Apple made a "compatibility release" to Panther so it has been very forward-compatible. I know lots of people currently using Panther, because Tiger didn't bring them anything worth the upgrade price. If you can remember the hassle after 10.3.4 (the most stable Panther version) you can probably count 1+1=2 when you think about Tiger troubles after 10.4.8 (the most stable Tiger version). There will be a great compatibility release for Tiger as well.

The reason why Jaguar is not supported is that Panther introduced lots of under-the-hood improvements that developers are now using everywhere.

Roller
Oct 15, 2007, 06:40 AM
Meh. Tiger is history.

Meh to your "meh".... :)

I'm looking forward to Leopard as much as the next guy, but I also have Macs that never will run it. Plus, I may decide to wait a month or so for the dust to settle before installing Leopard on my newer Macs. So continued development on Tiger is good news.

Sandfleaz
Oct 15, 2007, 06:40 AM
I guess the moral of the story is that an OS is never completely done (kind of like my home improvement projects).

JFreak
Oct 15, 2007, 06:46 AM
FYI: Protools availability for leopard is 180 days after GR (general release) so that means 2008 (mid probably).

Good guess.

I'm a Protools beta tester and I can assure you there is no 180-day rule. Support will come once the software is fully tested on such version general public can buy and use. It might be sooner, it might be later, it will be whenever it's ready. Digidesign has a very large beta group and strict quality control. They will not support something that will get their hands full of it.

Why do you think it has taken so long to support Vista, for example? It was released 11 months ago for volume licensing customers and 9 months ago to retail. Protools supports it once the 7.4 is out to general public next month. That's not "180 days" and 7.4 release date has not been postponed.

Don't know why digidesign can't test on the betas, bt I guess they want to test the final.

They surely do alpha testing in-house, but beta testers may or may not have access to other beta builds, so therefore beta testing is always done on released software. And it takes time.

WildPalms
Oct 15, 2007, 06:54 AM
Glad to see they're trying to patch the last few things up before moving on.



That's what I thought. Must of been thinking about something else.

FFS dude, Must have! Must have! Not of...

gnasher729
Oct 15, 2007, 07:08 AM
Since Tiger is the last version for many capable Mac's, i wonder how long it will take for People/company's to start dropping support (like 10.2 10.3 is)???

Last week or so I had to boot one machine into 10.3, and there were software updates for it. So Apple will still do at least security updates for 10.3.

gnasher729
Oct 15, 2007, 07:14 AM
For many's sake, I hope they lower the minimum speed limit back down to 800 MHz although the video cards on those systems may be another reason Apple doesn't want to let people run Leopard on them. :confused:

If you have any machine that can be booted as a Firewire disk, you should be able to install Leopard without any problems, you just have to borrow another machine to do the install. I'm just guessing, but I don't think Leopard would check for the speed once it has been installed. Someone will likely try that within two hours of Leopard being released and post it here :D

Mac OS X Ocelot
Oct 15, 2007, 07:26 AM
Would it be worth it to install Leopard on my 1.25GHz G4 iMac? Even if it meets the requirements, probably just barely, would it suffer from all the bells and whistles (that I love, by the way) that it just wouldn't be worth it? I'm really looking forward to Stacks and the new Finder.

JFreak
Oct 15, 2007, 07:29 AM
Would it be worth it to install Leopard on my 1.25GHz G4 iMac? Even if it meets the requirements, probably just barely, would it suffer from all the bells and whistles (that I love, by the way) that it just wouldn't be worth it? I'm really looking forward to Stacks and the new Finder.

It cannot be slower than a 6-month-old PC running VISTA

samh004
Oct 15, 2007, 07:38 AM
FFS dude, Must have! Must have! Not of...

LOL, took you long enough and you were beaten to the punch anyway.

andrewag
Oct 15, 2007, 07:46 AM
10.4.11 - the ULTIMATE tiger.

I manage around 200 macs at work, from some older indigo imacs, through emacs, g5 imacs and now intel based imacs. The older machines i would not look at upgrading to 10.5 (the costs alone are a killer) let alone the tax on the system that leopard will have (when compared to tiger). I'm pleased that Apple will update tiger at least one more time.

I hope Safari 3 is downloadable for Tiger (although I doubt it).

JFreak
Oct 15, 2007, 08:05 AM
I hope Safari 3 is downloadable for Tiger (although I doubt it).

Why wouldn't it be? It's a public beta. Surely it will cost nothing for Windows people and if they're getting it free then we loyal customers will most definetely get it free also. It is already working fine in Tiger so there is absolutely no reason why it suddenly would require Leopard.

shyataroo
Oct 15, 2007, 08:20 AM
It cannot be slower than a 6-month-old PC running VISTA

had you said it when vista was released that would have been remotley accurate, however vista was released over 6 months ago. Ergo, a 6 month old PC should easily be able to handle vista, (unless of course the PC is new but uses old parts)

Vista is the result of saying: "hey apple your operating system is pretty, can we copy it?" Apple of course thinks imatation is the sincerest form of flattery so of course they allow it.

FJ218700
Oct 15, 2007, 08:25 AM
If you have any machine that can be booted as a Firewire disk, you should be able to install Leopard without any problems, you just have to borrow another machine to do the install. I'm just guessing, but I don't think Leopard would check for the speed once it has been installed. Someone will likely try that within two hours of Leopard being released and post it here :D

I'll let you know if it runs on a 500 MHz Ti :eek:

Mac OS X Ocelot
Oct 15, 2007, 08:25 AM
had you said it when vista was released that would have been remotley accurate, however vista was released over 6 months ago. Ergo, a 6 month old PC should easily be able to handle vista, (unless of course the PC is new but uses old parts)

Vista is the result of saying: "hey apple your operating system is pretty, can we copy it?" Apple of course thinks imatation is the sincerest form of flattery so of course they allow it.

So should one install Leopard on their 1.25GHZ iMac or not? And your sig is disgusting.

JFreak
Oct 15, 2007, 08:33 AM
had you said it when vista was released that would have been remotley accurate, however vista was released over 6 months ago. Ergo, a 6 month old PC should easily be able to handle vista

Actually, I meant that "a PC that has run VISTA for 6 months will probably be slower than the 1.25GHz iMac running Leopard". Windows PC tends to slow down after few months of use. I took it to the safe side by saying 6 months. Sorry if I didn't articulate myself clearly enough :)

siren77
Oct 15, 2007, 08:34 AM
Just wondering, what's the difference between a Release Candidate and Gold Master? Does Gold Master mean it's pretty much finalized and only needs to be packaged?

JFreak
Oct 15, 2007, 08:38 AM
Just wondering, what's the difference between a Release Candidate and Gold Master? Does Gold Master mean it's pretty much finalized and only needs to be packaged?

RC is one of the builds that can be declared a GM, whereas GM is *the* build that goes to production.

Zygon Gambit
Oct 15, 2007, 08:39 AM
I hope they sort out some of the crashing issues.

My Mac is three and half years old, and had only "Kernel Panic'd" a couple of times in the three years. But now it does it when unplugging an iPod (randomly, as far as I can tell), and when a bluetooth keyboard is turned off/on.

I don't think it's hardware related, and it is very annoying.

FJ218700
Oct 15, 2007, 08:42 AM
I hope they sort out some of the crashing issues.

My Mac is three and half years old, and had only "Kernel Panic'd" a couple of times in the three years. But now it does it when unplugging an iPod (randomly, as far as I can tell), and when a bluetooth keyboard is turned off/on.

I don't think it's hardware related, and it is very annoying.

I've had trouble with 10.4.10 and peripherals too

Dreamer2go
Oct 15, 2007, 08:44 AM
Apple definitely missed their deadline for an October Leopard release, well see it in stores maybe late November. Not sure why, since the os seems pretty stable in the late betas n stuff. I'd rather not have them pull a microsoft and place the updates in a service pack 1 or something (10.5.1-2). So I'm happy their taking their time.

FYI: Protools availability for leopard is 180 days after GR (general release) so that means 2008 (mid probably). Don't know why digidesign can't test on the betas, bt I guess they want to test the final.

Oh well, that's my lowdown.

LOL LOL
This is Apple not microsoft.

Thomas2006
Oct 15, 2007, 08:52 AM
Will the "classic" environment be supported on Macs with a PowerPC CPU or is this where Apple says "Bye, bye"?

JFreak
Oct 15, 2007, 08:54 AM
Will the "classic" environment be supported on Macs with a PowerPC CPU or is this where Apple says "Bye, bye"?

Bye-bye :cool:

Mac OS X Ocelot
Oct 15, 2007, 09:03 AM
Bye-bye :cool:

Good riddance.

Consultant
Oct 15, 2007, 09:04 AM
had you said it when vista was released that would have been remotley accurate, however vista was released over 6 months ago. Ergo, a 6 month old PC should easily be able to handle vista, (unless of course the PC is new but uses old parts)

Vista is the result of saying: "hey apple your operating system is pretty, can we copy it?" Apple of course thinks imatation is the sincerest form of flattery so of course they allow it.

Full features of Vista DOES NOT even work on all currently shipping PCs.

Luap
Oct 15, 2007, 09:37 AM
Hopefully this will include a fix for the new iMac video card issues.....

It would be nice, wouldn't it? However, it could just as likely be thrown out there as a separate update for the new iMacs. As there has already been 2 revisions of graphics drivers released separately for these iMacs already. So a 3rd isn't unrealistic.

While im here, I cant say I have any real problems with 10.4.10, but im sure i'll make a grab at 10.4.11 regardless :)

Multimedia
Oct 15, 2007, 09:42 AM
An error message appears during installation, saying at least an 800MHz G4 is needed to proceed.No. The latest word is that message will say "at least 867MHz G4 is needed to proceed."WAHOO!! Im in the clear.Not if you're running @ 800MHz.Would it be worth it to install Leopard on my 1.25GHz G4 iMac? Even if it meets the requirements, probably just barely, would it suffer from all the bells and whistles (that I love, by the way) that it just wouldn't be worth it? I'm really looking forward to Stacks and the new Finder.Definitely worth installing. I don't believe Leopard will run slower than Tiger on Macs just above the minimum required speed. I believe it will run faster. Just because it has a lot of features doesn't mean it will run slower.

Mac OS X Ocelot
Oct 15, 2007, 10:01 AM
Definitely worth installing. I don't believe Leopard will run slower than Tiger on Macs just above the minimum required speed. I believe it will run faster. Just because it has a lot of features doesn't mean it will run slower.

Thank you so much! Finally, a straight answer lol. Not that I didn't enjoy the jokes at Vista's expense. I think Apple has my money this time around.

davak
Oct 15, 2007, 10:01 AM
A ton of users are still having problems keeping their usb drives happy when connected to airport extreme.

As this will be a key method that many people use as a backup device with Time Machine, I hope it gets fixed soon.

/hoping that apple developers still frequent these forums.

Antares
Oct 15, 2007, 10:03 AM
Apple should focus on making Leopard bug free instead of wasting time still "fixing" Tiger.

JFreak
Oct 15, 2007, 10:06 AM
Apple should focus on making Leopard bug free instead of wasting time still "fixing" Tiger.

Do you realise how many Tiger users' toes you just stepped on?

hayesk
Oct 15, 2007, 10:08 AM
Apple should focus on making Leopard bug free instead of wasting time still "fixing" Tiger.

So if you buy a Mac with a hardware problem that could be fixed with a firmware patch, would you say "Apple should focus on making new models bug free instead of wasting time still fixing existing Macs."

That is stupid - people shouldn't have to upgrade to Leopard to have a stable Mac. Not everyone upgrades for the sake of upgrading.

milo
Oct 15, 2007, 10:09 AM
mac needs to jump on bungie and get halo 3 ported to the mac for the new leopard release 64 bit baby!!!!!

Did you even read the bungie details? Microsoft still owns the rights to halo, bungie has no control over that title. And MS will never let that happen, at least not for years after Halo sales on xbox and pc have trickled down to nothing - if they port to other platforms, there's less incentive to buy an xbox or PC.

And way to go completely off topic.

FYI: Protools availability for leopard is 180 days after GR (general release) so that means 2008 (mid probably). Don't know why digidesign can't test on the betas, bt I guess they want to test the final.


Is that official word from digi, or just what people are assuming? Digi has always sucked at supporting the latest OS versions, they still haven't approved 10.4.10 yet. They'll probably approve it the day after 10.4.11 ships. And I don't think Apple has missed an october release yet, they don't have much time left but there's still barely enough time to get disks duplicated and shipped. I still think we'll probably see it in stores on the 26th.

Apple should focus on making Leopard bug free instead of wasting time still "fixing" Tiger.

Think about what you just said. Tiger shipped 2.5 years ago, and they're still making improvements and fixes. Whenever Leopard ships, they will be doing the same 2.5 years after that.

No OS is ever "bug free", it just reaches a point where the bugs are minor enough that users accept it. Plus, tiger and leopard surely have separate teams, pulling the tiger guys to work on leopard for a couple weeks probably would make zero difference.

Mac OS X Ocelot
Oct 15, 2007, 10:09 AM
Apple should focus on making Leopard bug free instead of wasting time still "fixing" Tiger.

Maybe they can do both?

mac 2005
Oct 15, 2007, 10:10 AM
This is one of the things I like about Apple. 10.5 is in the wings, but the company isn't throwing out 10.4 quite yet. I won't be upgrading my MacBook to 10.5 for a while, so: Thanks Apple.

minik
Oct 15, 2007, 10:12 AM
Many only upgrade when forced to, so no, Tiger is not dead. For example close to every music studio running the latest Protools HD sit tight on Tiger version 10.4.8 for as long as Digidesign blesses Leopard. It might take a while so no upgrades this year.

Not everyone has nothing better to do than just wait for an upgrade...

Pro Tools... blah. I finally figured out how to launch the program successfully under 10.4.10. *Repair Prebinding*

I hope Apple is going to provide update for Apple Remote Desktop 3 and Leopard users or ARD 4?

Meanwhile, if Leopard comes before 10.4.11, I will go straight to Leopard on all my Macs.

xUKHCx
Oct 15, 2007, 10:12 AM
Maybe they can do both?

Maybe the updates in 10.4.11 are a direct result of work in 10.5.0 or maybe they are also going to be useful in sorting out some of the bugs in 10.5.0

siren77
Oct 15, 2007, 10:15 AM
I don't believe Leopard will run slower than Tiger on Macs just above the minimum required speed. I believe it will run faster. Just because it has a lot of features doesn't mean it will run slower.

Why is that? Won't new features such as Spaces and Stacks be a bit heavy on the memory, especially on a macbook with its gma 950?

JFreak
Oct 15, 2007, 10:18 AM
Pro Tools... blah. I finally figured out how to launch the program successfully under 10.4.10. *Repair Prebinding*

You do realise that 10.4.10 is unsupported operating system version, don't you? Yes, there is a workaround, but it is just that — a workaround, which is not supported, it may work or on the other hand it may not.

Mac OS X Ocelot
Oct 15, 2007, 10:19 AM
Why is that? Won't new features such as Spaces and Stacks be a bit heavy on the memory, especially on a macbook with its gma 950?

I don't see how Stacks and Spaces specifically will tax the system more than the other features, or any more than Exposé and Dashboard, among others, already do. I mean, Linux has had spaces for years and Stacks are just like folders in the Dock but prettier. I'm more worried about some of the features in the new Finder as well as all the overall clearness and shininess of the gui.

aranhamo
Oct 15, 2007, 10:22 AM
Did you even read the bungie details? Microsoft still owns the rights to halo, bungie has no control over that title. And MS will never let that happen, at least not for years after Halo sales on xbox and pc have trickled down to nothing - if they port to other platforms, there's less incentive to buy an xbox or PC.

And way to go completely off topic.

Not only that, but Microsoft gets exclusive publishing rights to all of Bungie's properties for several years. So anything Bungie produces for the next little while is all going to be released under the Microsoft banner. However, Microsoft is one of the top publishers of games for the Mac, so some of Bungie's stuff could end up on the Mac.

ChrisA
Oct 15, 2007, 10:23 AM
...final update to Mac OS X 10.4....

I bet there will be more updates to Tiger even after Leopard is released. "Final" is not the right word. Panther continues to get some updates now and then, so will Tiger.

Mac OS X Ocelot
Oct 15, 2007, 10:24 AM
Not only that, but Microsoft gets exclusive publishing rights to all of Bungie's properties for several years. So anything Bungie produces for the next little while is all going to be released under the Microsoft banner. However, Microsoft is one of the top publishers of games for the Mac, so some of Bungie's stuff could end up on the Mac.

Exactly. Just not Halo. I've been playing a lot of AoEIII, which is produced by MS. Great game.

zioxide
Oct 15, 2007, 10:25 AM
For many's sake, I hope they lower the minimum speed limit back down to 800 MHz although the video cards on those systems may be another reason Apple doesn't want to let people run Leopard on them. :confused:


Apple wants people to buy new machines. Those machines are like 5 years old.

MacinDoc
Oct 15, 2007, 10:33 AM
Apple should focus on making Leopard bug free instead of wasting time still "fixing" Tiger.
I hope Apple never develops this attitude.

"What's that? Someone keeps accessing your computer due to a security bug? What OS do you have? OS X 10.4.10 that came on the Mac Pro you bought just 2 weeks ago? No problem, just go out and buy OS X 10.5. It's only another $139. No, we haven't worked out all the bugs yet, but we screwed all you users of 10.4 so we could fix the 10.5 bugs more quickly".

Eidorian
Oct 15, 2007, 10:38 AM
Once again, I'm waiting for NFS fixes.

siren77
Oct 15, 2007, 10:41 AM
I don't see how Stacks and Spaces specifically will tax the system more than the other features, or any more than Exposé and Dashboard, among others, already do. I mean, Linux has had spaces for years and Stacks are just like folders in the Dock but prettier. I'm more worried about some of the features in the new Finder as well as all the overall clearness and shininess of the gui.

I was referring to stacks and spaces just as examples but those are good points as well. I know iTunes starts hogging a lot of resources if I leave it running with Cover Flow enabled...

jellomizer
Oct 15, 2007, 10:55 AM
Sure there is a group of people who get the OS When it comes out. Then there is a group of people who get it after a couple of update. To get any unknown kinks out of the system. Then There are people who will only upgrade if they get a new system. Keeping the version updated is important because they get a major security problem on their older system there is a chance they will not go back with Macs again.

samh004
Oct 15, 2007, 11:10 AM
I was referring to stacks and spaces just as examples but those are good points as well. I know iTunes starts hogging a lot of resources if I leave it running with Cover Flow enabled...

But that's just pure, unadulterated, eye-candy, of course it's going to be a hog, although it'll still work. I agree to a certain extent stacks could be, but Spaces isn't unless your going to try slow motion effects in it like you can do with Exposé.

steve_hill4
Oct 15, 2007, 11:20 AM
Here's hoping the next few days will usher in the release date for 10.5 and the release of 10.4.11.

On the day of Leopard's release, (or at least within 3-4 weeks of it, ready for Christmas), Apple announce spec bumps of several of their models.

I've conceded that getting a 24" iMac with an internal Blu Ray drive is far fetched any time soon, (I was planning to buy in the next month), but Sony are now shipping 17" laptops with them for £1299 in the UK. 24" iMac with off shelf spec is £1149. We can't be too far away from some more new features coming, can we?

rockosmodurnlif
Oct 15, 2007, 11:34 AM
With the iPhone (updates and the iTunes wifi store), OX X 10.5 (I've always wondered why it isn't OS 10.5 or OS X.5), new iPods and all the other junk that's hidden in Apple's labs it's nice to see they've still got time for a .1 update to Tiger.

Salud to Apple's engineers! :)

And who cares about Mac games in this thread?

milo
Oct 15, 2007, 11:46 AM
Not only that, but Microsoft gets exclusive publishing rights to all of Bungie's properties for several years.

Not exactly. They just get a first look, which isn't the same thing. MS may not even necessarily want everything Bungie does in the next few years.

Amdahl
Oct 15, 2007, 12:31 PM
Actually, I meant that "a PC that has run VISTA for 6 months will probably be slower than the 1.25GHz iMac running Leopard". Windows PC tends to slow down after few months of use. I took it to the safe side by saying 6 months. Sorry if I didn't articulate myself clearly enough :)

Microsoft has 5 more updates(2 big ones came out 45 days ago) that should be on automatic update in about 3 weeks (or less) that will have Vista up to 'release' readiness. The worst crashes and corruptions are fixed, and some of the performance 'bugs' are fixed. It even boots faster.

Performance design defects are another story though... and I am eager to see whether it still runs like a dog on many machines, especially low end brand new Dell laptops.

MacsRgr8
Oct 15, 2007, 01:02 PM
...(I've always wondered why it isn't OS 10.5 or OS X.5)...

Mac OS X is the name of the OS. The "X" (pronounced as "10") doesn't refer to a version, but simply as the successor to Mac OS "Classic" (i.e. "9").
The version number after the "X" is the version.
We have had Mac OS X, version 1.0 (the "Rhapsody" Server version)
Now we're getting Mac OS X version 10.5.

The "10.x" as version numbering simply made it a more logical after Mac OS 9.x than starting the count all over (as they did with the "Rhapsody" versions of Mac OS X 1.0 through 1.2)

TBO it would have been fine with me if 10.0 would have been: Mac OS X 2.0.
Puma (10.1) as Mac OS X 3.0
Jaguar (10.2) as Mac OS X 4.0
Panther (10.3) as Mac OS X 5.0
Tiger (10.4) as Mac OS X 6.0
Leopard (10.5) as Mac OS X 7.0 (cool! System 7!! :D)

Amdahl
Oct 15, 2007, 01:10 PM
No. The latest word is that message will say "at least 867MHz G4 is needed to proceed."Not if you're running @ 800MHz.Definitely worth installing. I don't believe Leopard will run slower than Tiger on Macs just above the minimum required speed. I believe it will run faster. Just because it has a lot of features doesn't mean it will run slower.

I believe it will run slower, unless you can name an improvement to memory, kernel, or file system that would improve on Tiger for these low end systems.

Now, on high end systems, such as quad and 8-core, it will be faster.

minik
Oct 15, 2007, 01:16 PM
You do realise that 10.4.10 is unsupported operating system version, don't you? Yes, there is a workaround, but it is just that — a workaround, which is not supported, it may work or on the other hand it may not.

I'm totally aware on that. However, we just got the Mac Pro (shipped with 10.4.10) and Mbox 2. They work okay, knock on wood.

wescravn
Oct 15, 2007, 01:34 PM
Do you realise how many Tiger users' toes you just stepped on?

Please Protools just plain sucks these days as digidesign is trying to bleed their customers pockets that use LE, and actually providing little value.

Wow Audio Quantizing, hasn't every major DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) been able to do that years ago.

Logic 8 (Apple) provides the best value, hey i want to go totally logic 8 in the next year, as its superior to protools and provides so much more greater value than the pos (:) ) digidesign puts out.....why should I use HD and pay $10K when I can use logic 8 with apogee converters for under 2K, you got to be kidding me right. Digidesign gots to get a clue.

Who needs another update of tiger? certainly not ME

jstad
Oct 15, 2007, 01:51 PM
I hope they make a repair for my macbook wifi finder. It is so unreliable since 10.4.10 but works amazing under 10.5. :rolleyes:

milo
Oct 15, 2007, 02:04 PM
Microsoft has 5 more updates(2 big ones came out 45 days ago) that should be on automatic update in about 3 weeks (or less) that will have Vista up to 'release' readiness. The worst crashes and corruptions are fixed, and some of the performance 'bugs' are fixed. It even boots faster.


Vaporware.

And should it really take this long to have a shipping OS in a usable state?

FJ218700
Oct 15, 2007, 02:19 PM
I believe it will run slower, unless you can name an improvement to memory, kernel, or file system that would improve on Tiger for these low end systems.

Now, on high end systems, such as quad and 8-core, it will be faster.

I don't know, I've talked with a dev who said the original beta ran faster than Tiger on his 450 MHz cube.

looking forward to giving my 500 MHz Ti its final upgrade.

milo
Oct 15, 2007, 02:43 PM
I believe it will run slower, unless you can name an improvement to memory, kernel, or file system that would improve on Tiger for these low end systems.

Why wouldn't you expect memory, kernel, and file system improvements? All the previous OS updates had them, and all the previous updates ran a little faster on the same hardware. This is an OS in progress, it continues to be rewritten and optimized further. The slowest machines are often the ones that benefit most from these OS updates, I don't see why this would be any different.

seashellz2
Oct 15, 2007, 03:29 PM
I know what will happen:
we will get 10.4.11 on Oct 26, and 10.5 mid-November-say the 16th.

psychofreak
Oct 15, 2007, 03:30 PM
I know what will happen:
we will get 10.4.11 on Oct 26, and 10.5 mid-November-say the 16th.

Blasphemy!

crossifixio
Oct 15, 2007, 03:47 PM
It does not seem that leopard is coming on the 26th :mad: but at least tiger will be rock solid. But i really want leopard :(

psychofreak
Oct 15, 2007, 03:50 PM
It does not seem that leopard is coming on the 26th :mad:How so? A 10 day countdown could come out...

FJ218700
Oct 15, 2007, 03:56 PM
How so? A 10 day countdown could come out...

or SJ could go against tradition and do no countdown just screw with us.

psychofreak
Oct 15, 2007, 03:57 PM
or SJ could go against tradition and do no countdown just screw with us.

Then the queues will be A LOT smaller...

Amdahl
Oct 15, 2007, 04:37 PM
Vaporware.

And should it really take this long to have a shipping OS in a usable state?

Vaporware? No. The fixes are already out, they just aren't on automatic update yet.

And no, Vista should not have shipped in the state it was in.

Amdahl
Oct 15, 2007, 04:40 PM
Why wouldn't you expect memory, kernel, and file system improvements? All the previous OS updates had them, and all the previous updates ran a little faster on the same hardware. This is an OS in progress, it continues to be rewritten and optimized further. The slowest machines are often the ones that benefit most from these OS updates, I don't see why this would be any different.

Those items are not something you can harvest over & over. Yes, the previous versions of OS X improved greatly, but that speaks more to how badly implemented they were in 10.0, rather than Apple's ability to defeat the laws of computer science.

Leopard is adding features and graphical woohoos, and those features are going to impact the memory bus and cache of weaker systems tremendously more than they are going to hurt the newer systems, especially the Intel systems with 4MB of cache per processor.

psychofreak
Oct 15, 2007, 04:44 PM
Apple wants people to buy new machines. Those machines are like 5 years old.

Longevity is a good reason (among many) to buy a Mac...abandoning machines that many still own turns owners and their friends a little against Apple...

milo
Oct 15, 2007, 04:53 PM
Those items are not something you can harvest over & over. Yes, the previous versions of OS X improved greatly, but that speaks more to how badly implemented they were in 10.0, rather than Apple's ability to defeat the laws of computer science.

Not "over and over" but you can continue to benefit from them until things are as optimized as possible. You're not seriously suggesting that apple has optimized the OS and finder as much as they possibly can, are you? I'm not saying they can defeat the laws of computer science, I'm saying that 10.0 had tons of room for improvement, and they've only covered some of that so far.

They have had graphical extras added in the past, and still the OS versions have gotten faster in spite of that. I'd be surprised if that isn't the case again overall.

Amdahl
Oct 15, 2007, 08:43 PM
Not "over and over" but you can continue to benefit from them until things are as optimized as possible. You're not seriously suggesting that apple has optimized the OS and finder as much as they possibly can, are you? I'm not saying they can defeat the laws of computer science, I'm saying that 10.0 had tons of room for improvement, and they've only covered some of that so far.

They have had graphical extras added in the past, and still the OS versions have gotten faster in spite of that. I'd be surprised if that isn't the case again overall.

I am suggesting that once you 'optimize' something, you can't go back and 'optimize' it again. In order to believe otherwise, I would have to believe that Apple half-assed it in 10.0, and then three-quarter-assed it when they re-did components in 10.3 and 10.4, and that in 10.5 they full-assed the same components again. There is no evidence of that. The major under-the-hood improvements in Leopard are for multi-core, and those improvements work AGAINST single core performance. The 800mhz- systems happen to be systems that had very limited memory bandwidth (and some, like PowerBooks, had unusually large L2 or L3 cache). The increase in graphical woohoos and more threads to hop between is going to eat that cache up and expose the pathetic memory bus. Especially if you don't have the cache to start with.

Take the Early 2003 iMac: 800Mhz, 100Mhz bus. only 256kb of L2 cache. That is pathetic. If the cache foot-print of Leopard is increased, (how can it not?), that machine is going to feel it more than a G5 with 512K or 1MB of cache and a blazing system bus will.

If nothing else, the increasing multi-threadedness is going to slowdown older systems. Hence, the new features on top of that are going to have a cost.

But take heart in this, at least it is only a minor increase in minimum requirement. Compared to Vista, Leopard is probably going to win next year's Prize in memory of Alfred Nobel in Economics.

ABM
Oct 25, 2007, 01:59 PM
Does it come tonight?

FJ218700
Oct 25, 2007, 02:01 PM
I anticipate downloading it as I stand in line tomorrow.

Chafka
Oct 25, 2007, 03:06 PM
Unless bootcamp has a time limit, don't suppose this will be the update to make it stop working, huh? I thought I read in another thread that bootcamp itself will stop working all together when Leopard is released...Just a thought.

Eidorian
Oct 25, 2007, 03:06 PM
Unless bootcamp has a time limit, don't suppose this will be the update to make it stop working, huh? I thought I read in another thread that bootcamp itself will stop working all together when Leopard is released...Just a thought.Define "stop working."

Chafka
Oct 25, 2007, 03:19 PM
I was thinking it would stop working (ie. not bootable) but I noticed that someone pointed out in another thread that the license expires when Leopard is released - not necessarily that it will stop working. So maybe it will - guess we will be at the mercy of apple (I am sure they could do what they want in an update...)

Eidorian
Oct 25, 2007, 03:20 PM
I was thinking it would stop working (ie. not bootable) but I noticed that someone pointed out in another thread that the license expires when Leopard is released - not necessarily that it will stop working. So maybe it will - guess we will be at the mercy of apple (I am sure they could do what they want in an update...)Apple isn't going to make it unbootable unless they modify the firmware.

CWallace
Oct 25, 2007, 03:27 PM
Unless bootcamp has a time limit, don't suppose this will be the update to make it stop working, huh?

You will no longer be able to create new Boot Camp partitions after tomorrow, I believe. The software will no longer work for that purpose.

However, Apple has publicly stated they will not disable any existing BootCamp partitions. But if you need to re-image or you corrupt your existing BC partition, you are now out of luck.

So if you do not plan to go to Leopard in the near term, either image your HDD now (so you have a backup) or just plan to run Windows virtually via Parallels or VMWare. :)