Which DSLR?

Tumeg101 · Oct 15, 2007

Instead of posting ANOTHER thread for this.... I will just change this one,
I talked to my teacher about the Nikon D40, and she said that MOST pros use canon, and the reason you see Nikons allot is because Nikon sponsors allot of stuff having to do with photography, and also Nikon cameras\lens' have to be cleaned once every two months, which costs $35-$75 (each time you have them cleaned) and the canon ones also have to get cleaned, but a place near my house does it for free... Please note, I didn't know what exactly she meant by this until Clix Pix explained it a little better,
I was looking around at Canons cameras, and came across the 30D. It seems to be a very nice camera, all the reviews are all very positive, and reading the stats it seems like an awesome one for me, that will last me a long time... (unlike maybe the XT or XTi which I may want to replace when I get more into photography)
Although, the kit lens people are saying is slow to focus, and has bad color... also, if you buy it with the kit lens, it is exactly my budget, but if I buy the body and the 75-200mm f/4-5.6 II USM Telephoto, the total of it comes to $70'ish cheaper then the body and kit lens...
So my amazon shopping card\wish list is:
Canon 30D Body Only
75-200mm f/4-5.6 II USM Telephoto Lens
4gb SanDisk Ultra II Card

Total: $1,134.09 + Tax
Which combined is $37.91 below my budget...

I am mainly asking for people who own this camera to post there experience, and maybe even some other suggestions... (the only other canons I can really afford is the 20D, XTi, and XT but the XT\XTi, I will want to replace them sooner...)
Anyway, I am pretty set on the 30D and this lens, but if someone wants to recommend a better lens that is $200 or below, then please do!
With my extra $37.91, what is a filter that I can attach to the telephoto lens, to help make it a better macro lens, is it fine as is? Or maybe there is a cheap filter to make it better...

Please note, I am no longer going to only get\consider a canon... I will consider a Nikon... please, no more flaming, before you post fully read this post, and the others so you don't repost the same info

gwuMACaddict · Oct 16, 2007

I don't understand Option 2.

Why would you want to double the range from 55-135mm? I'm assuming the kit lens isn't any faster than f/4.

Clix Pix · Oct 16, 2007

For shooting macro you'll need either extension tubes, close up filters or best, a dedicated macro lens. While the 18-55mm focuses pretty closely it does not have the 1:1 ratio of a true macro lens.

For shooting sports in a dark arena you will need a long, fast telephoto lens; the 70-300mm VR is not designed for that kind of use. It works nicely outdoors in good lighting.

Given the two choices you've mentioned here, I'd go for the D40 and the 18-55mm and the 55-200mm VR lenses, work with them a while and then decide where you want to go from there. The two lenses are meant to complement each other and are designed to make a small, compact, lightweight kit. When you're ready to move on to something else, you'll have a better idea of which direction in which you want to go and can start investigating lenses which are more specific to various types of shooting situations.

Butthead · Oct 16, 2007

Clix Pix said:
For shooting macro you'll need either extension tubes, close up filters or best, a dedicated macro lens. While the 18-55mm focuses pretty closely it does not have the 1:1 ratio of a true macro lens.

For shooting sports in a dark arena you will need a long, fast telephoto lens; the 70-300mm VR is not designed for that kind of use. It works nicely outdoors in good lighting.

Given the two choices you've mentioned here, I'd go for the D40 and the 18-55mm and the 55-200mm VR lenses, work with them a while and then decide where you want to go from there. The two lenses are meant to complement each other and are designed to make a small, compact, lightweight kit. When you're ready to move on to something else, you'll have a better idea of which direction in which you want to go and can start investigating lenses which are more specific to various types of shooting situations.

On a D300/D3 @6400ISO, should work well enough

.

I would go for the Tamron 28-300mm 3-axis stablized lenses---unlike the Canon or Nikon as a single carry all lens. Small, light weight...remember this is for a 14yr old. Won't break the father's bank either. Sure it will be a bit soft @300mm, but I don't think that will be as critical for the user as you might think...and it does macro (again, probably well enough for the intended user). One relatively small lens, so you don't need to carry around extra lenses.

http://www.wildaboutkent.co.uk/index.php?blog=2&title=three_legged_friend&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

http://www.wildaboutkent.co.uk/

RevToTheRedline · Oct 16, 2007

Butthead said:
On a D300/D3 @6400ISO, should work well enough .

I would go for the Tamron 28-300mm 3-axis stablized lenses---unlike the Canon or Nikon as a single carry all lens. Small, light weight...remember this is for a 14yr old. Won't break the father's bank either. Sure it will be a bit soft @300mm, but I don't think that will be as critical for the user as you might think...and it does macro (again, probably well enough for the intended user). One relatively small lens, so you don't need to carry around extra lenses.

http://www.wildaboutkent.co.uk/index.php?blog=2&title=three_legged_friend&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

http://www.wildaboutkent.co.uk/

Have you seen the D300 at ISO 6400? it's nothing spectacular, it's ISO 1600 is almost identical to the D200. Nikon never said anything about better noise handling on the D300 and it obviously shows.

Clix Pix · Oct 16, 2007

Butthead said:
On a D300/D3 @6400ISO, should work well enough .

I would go for the Tamron 28-300mm 3-axis stablized lenses---unlike the Canon or Nikon as a single carry all lens.

Well, I don't think the original poster is getting a D3 or D300 right now, looks as though he's aiming for the more modestly priced D40. I haven't gotten my hands on a D300 or D3 yet so am reserving judgement as to what these new cameras will or will not do in the higher ISO arena. Yes, being able to shoot in higher ISO will make some difference, but one still needs fairly good lenses, especially when capturing sports action. How many sports photographers do you see waving around a D40 and 55-200mm VR? Most are using the longer, heavier, faster telephoto lenses on the camera bodies which have faster and more responsive fps.

Will the Tamron 28-300mm lens work on the D40? Is it even available yet? Remember, the D40 and D40x do not have internal focusing motor drives so that all lenses will either have to be AF-S (Nikon) or HSM (Sigma) or something else in order to auto-focus on these cameras. I don't think that right now Tamron or Tokina offer any lenses which will autofocus on the D40/D40x, but I could be wrong about that. Certainly any lens will work if he wants to manually focus, but a lot of times people don't want to do that.

Tumeg101 · Oct 16, 2007

Read the OP for updated info\question(s)!!!

Clix Pix · Oct 16, 2007

The D40 does not have an internal motor to drive autofocus, so the only lenses which will autofocus on it are those which have their own internal motor. These are the AF-S lenses. Sigma also has some lenses which do this, too, and theirs are called HSM. Lenses which are not AF-S or HSM will NOT autofocus on a D40 or D40x body. All other lenses which are not AF-S or HSM will need to be focused manually by the user.

The D50, on the other hand, does work with all autofocus lenses because it has the internal motor drive in the body and therefore can work with AF and AF-S lenses. The user does not have to worry as much about manually focusing unless he/she decides to do so or is using an AI-S lens.

There are a few other differences but for purposes of this particular discussion what I've mentioned above is key.

I'm going to answer the other question the same way I did before: if you're going with a D40, get the 18-55mm kit lens and the 55-200mm VR. Work with those for a while before delving into other lenses.

Tumeg101 · Oct 16, 2007

Read the OP for updated info\question(s)!!!

compuwar · Oct 16, 2007

Tumeg101 said:
If I am going to have to buy some better lens' just for the very few times I will be doing some sports photography... then never mind, lol but I would still like a nice zoom lens (not too big or too small) just to get some basic portraits, landscapes, and semi macro shots...
But after thinking about this, I have changed my set-up ideas to the following:

1) D40(Body Only) + 70-300mm Lens
2) D40(Body Only) + 55-200mm Lens
3) D40 + 18-135mm Kit Lens + 70-300mm Lens
4) D40 + 18-135mm Kit Lens + 55-200mm Lens
5) D40 + 18-55mm Kit lens + 70-300mm Lens
6) D40 + 18-135mm Kit Lens

Feel free to try and think of a good setup for me...
And mix and match the above lens' if you would like, but I don't want to buy more than two lens' for now...

I also have another question... what is the difference between the D40 and D50??

For portraits, I find the 18-55mm a little limiting (one of my friends just picked up the D40 with that lens and I was playing with it this weekend while his wife held their 7mo. old.) If you want tight shots of small kids, I'd seriously look at the 18-70mm if you can get the body without a lens. Thom Hogan's review of the 18-135mm would make me shy away from it because of the vignetting. I'd probably look at the 70-300 later, unless you really think you'll need a telephoto sooner.

Tumeg101 · Oct 16, 2007

Read the OP for updated info\question(s)!!!

localghost · Oct 16, 2007

If you can, change the teacher (to one without brand-preference).

I cant comment on the nikon-setup (have a canon), but whatever you do, dont start to learn photography without having anything below 75mm ... (or f4, but thats a matter of taste). Ever thought about getting the xti and spending more on glass? (17-55/2.8 // 17-40/4 // and/or 35/2 //50/1.8,)

Butthead · Oct 16, 2007

localghost said:
If you can, change the teacher (to one without brand-preference).

I cant comment on the nikon-setup (have a canon), but whatever you do, dont start to learn photography without having anything below 75mm ... (or f4, but thats a matter of taste). Ever thought about getting the xti and spending more on glass? (17-55/2.8 // 17-40/4 // and/or 35/2 //50/1.8,)

Yeah, I vote to change to another teacher too

. Well, if the OP is going to just do whatever the teacher says, no point in posting on MR is there, as each thread will need to be closed, again and again, yes?

Ok, I change what I said, OP needs a faster lens (lower aperture number), even if it is a heavy tank w/o image stablization, just to get faster/more accurate autofocusing in more lower light situations and a higher shutter speed to better capture motion of hockey stick/puck on ice. But a hockey game is certainly well lit, I would think?

Have any of you seen the Oly PnS @10k ISO, looks worse than any dSLR, but you'll still get some 'acceptable' (eye of the beholder I know, but go look at some samples) images if they are small enough...are all of you thinking the OP is going to be printing larger images?

Tumeg101 · Oct 16, 2007

Everyone, please ignore all the above posts except for the OP! I just updated it, with a new camera setup and new question(s)

Westside guy · Oct 16, 2007

Okay, this is getting rather tiresome.

Anyone who says "every pro shoots Canon" or "every pro shoots Nikon" is a fanboy (or in this case fangirl) that really isn't worth listening to (on that specific topic anyway). A lot of pro studio photographers shoot Canon - but some shoot Nikon. A lot of the professional landscape photographers shoot Nikon (thank you Galen Rowell) - but some shoot Canon. Canon seems to be the pro sports magazine shooters' choice - but then it's said they subsidized that market for quite a few years, back in the film days. The reason one brand or the other dominates one segment or the other is probably more happenstance than anything else.

But you know what? The brand of camera isn't going to make a difference in the quality of your photographs. Taking photos will.

Addendum: This may come across as harsh, but - deleting all your old posts that people have gone to the trouble to answer is quite self-absorbed. Forum threads are often very valuable to people that come along months later, asking the same questions you've already asked. Next time start a new thread if you're changing your question, and leave the old one in place.

miloblithe · Oct 16, 2007

I was just at a wedding this weekend where I (an amateur) was using a Canon and the pro was using a Nikon. Anyone who says that pros only use Canons is an idiot. Let me rephrase that. Your teacher is an idiot. Lenses need to be cleaned every two months? What are you doing with them?

You're planning on using the camera with only one lens, and that lens will be a 75-200mm lens? That's a very strange plan.

Why won't an XTi last you as long as a 30D? If you will have no additional budget in the future beyond your $1172 budget, you'd be far better served by getting the XTi and some decent lenses/accessories than you would by your current plan.

Tumeg101 · Oct 16, 2007

Westside guy said:
Okay, this is getting rather tiresome.

Anyone who says "every pro shoots Canon" or "every pro shoots Nikon" is a fanboy (or in this case fangirl) that really isn't worth listening to. A lot of pro studio photographers shoot Canon - but some shoot Nikon. A lot of the professional landscape photographers shoot Nikon (thank you Galen Rowell) - but some shoot Canon. Canon seems to be the pro sports magazine shooters' choice - but then it's said they subsidized that market for quite a few years, back in the film days. The reason one brand or the other dominates one segment or the other is probably more happenstance than anything else.

But you know what? The brand of camera isn't going to make one d*mn bit of difference in your photography. Taking photos will.

miloblithe said:
I was just at a wedding this weekend where I (an amateur) was using a Canon and the pro was using a Nikon. Anyone who says that pros only use Canons is an idiot. Let me rephrase that. Your teacher is an idiot. Lenses need to be cleaned every two months? What are you doing with them?

You're planning on using the camera with only one lens, and that lens will be a 75-200mm lens? That's a very strange plan.

Why won't an XTi last you as long as a 30D? If you will have no additional budget in the future beyond your $1172 budget, you'd be far better served by getting the XTi and some decent lenses/accessories than you would by your current plan.

Didn't mean to get you guys upset....
She actually just said "Most" pros use canon...
She owns a photography business, she uses canon and her assistant uses Nikon, to see her pics\site go to csbowlinphotography.com
It's not the end of the lens that needs to be cleaned every two months, it's the "sensors" (thats what she called it)
Please don't call my teacher an idiot.
And why is the 30D with a nice lens, a very strange plan?
The XTi wont last me as long, just because it is not as high tech, and doesn't have all the extra features that the 30D has, and that I might be wanting in the future as I progress with my photography. Also, the XTi and XT are small, and hard to hold, although I am only 14, I am\will grow(ing)... If there is a filter I can put on the telephoto lens to help it be a better macro lens along with landscape, and portrait shots, then I won't need\want new lens for a while...

RevToTheRedline · Oct 16, 2007

Bwhahahahaha. I'm quoting that for life

"My teacher said only pros use Canons" What a moron.

Oh crap I'm dying over here...

Westside guy · Oct 16, 2007

Tumeg101 said:
It's not the end of the lens that needs to be cleaned every two months, it's the "sensors" (thats what she called it)

Sensors get dust on them from exposure to dust in the air whenever you change a lens. A Canon sensor will get just as much dust on it as a Nikon sensor, if you change lenses the same way and at the same frequency in the same location. The Canon sensor will show the effects of that dust exactly as much as the Nikon sensor will - no better, no worse.

FWIW I've had my Nikon D70 for 3 years now, and have had to clean the sensor exactly once (a couple months ago, as a matter of fact).

Clix Pix · Oct 16, 2007

Kid, do yourself a favor and go to a local camera shop and handle several cameras before making a decision. DON'T just order one off an internet website!!!!!!!!! Ergonomics is very important when handling camera bodies. What may feel good to one person may not feel too great to another person. Nikons have always felt right to me, Canons don't -- but that has nothing to do with image quality. Canon and Nikon both produce excellent cameras and excellent lenses; it is more a matter of individual preference that determines which system one will choose.

<<I talked to my teacher about the Nikon D40, and she said that the pros use canon, and the reason you see Nikons allot is because Nikon sponsors allot of stuff having to do with photography, and also Nikon cameras\lens' have to be cleaned once every two months, which costs $35-$75 (each time you have them cleaned) and the canon ones also have to get cleaned, but a place near my house does it for free...>>

Ah, your teacher needs to learn a few things about cameras. Clearly he/she has a real bias, too, towards Canon vs Nikon, without any genuine knowledge to support what has been said. I've had Nikon cameras for years and the only cleaning I've ever had to do is a quick blowing-out with my Giotto Rocket blower after coming home from a shooting session. I have yet to deal with cleaning the sensor. My lenses get a quick going-over before I use them, no big deal.... Your teacher is full of it, if you want my honest opinion.

I have been a Nikon shooter for many years and am really unfamiliar with Canon's bodies and lenses so will not attempt to offer any suggestions with regard to what you have mentioned in your changed post. All I can say is that it is important to actually handle any camera before making a purchase. Go with what feels best and "right" to you and get out there and start shooting!

RevToTheRedline · Oct 16, 2007

Clix Pix said:
Kid, do yourself a favor and go to a local camera shop and handle several cameras before making a decision. DON'T just order one off an internet website!!!!!!!!! Ergonomics is very important when handling camera bodies. What may feel good to one person may not feel too great to another person. Nikons have always felt right to me, Canons don't -- but that has nothing to do with image quality. Canon and Nikon both produce excellent cameras and excellent lenses; it is more a matter of individual preference that determines which system one will choose.

<<I talked to my teacher about the Nikon D40, and she said that the pros use canon, and the reason you see Nikons allot is because Nikon sponsors allot of stuff having to do with photography, and also Nikon cameras\lens' have to be cleaned once every two months, which costs $35-$75 (each time you have them cleaned) and the canon ones also have to get cleaned, but a place near my house does it for free...>>

Ah, your teacher needs to learn a few things about cameras. Clearly he/she has a real bias, too, towards Canon vs Nikon, without any genuine knowledge to support what has been said. I've had Nikon cameras for years and the only cleaning I've ever had to do is a quick blowing-out with my Giotto Rocket blower after coming home from a shooting session. I have yet to deal with cleaning the sensor. My lenses get a quick going-over before I use them, no big deal.... Your teacher is full of it, if you want my honest opinion.

I have been a Nikon shooter for many years and am really unfamiliar with Canon's bodies and lenses so will not attempt to offer any suggestions with regard to what you have mentioned in your changed post. All I can say is that it is important to actually handle any camera before making a purchase. Go with what feels best and "right" to you and get out there and start shooting!

That's exactly what I do Clix, a quick shot with the Giottos.

I might have gone with Canon (I was a Canon uses previously with an A-1 film SLR handed down to me from my Dad in the 80's) but the ergonomics of new Canons threw me off, as well as the features of the comparable Canons. You have to enjoy shooting with it, or don't use it at all is what I say.

Tumeg101 · Oct 16, 2007

Westside guy said:
Sensors get dust on them from exposure to dust in the air whenever you change a lens. A Canon sensor will get just as much dust on it as a Nikon sensor, if you change lenses the same way and at the same frequency in the same location. The Canon sensor will show the effects of that dust exactly as much as the Nikon sensor will - no better, no worse.

FWIW I've had my Nikon D70 for 3 years now, and have had to clean the sensor exactly once (a couple months ago, as a matter of fact).

Clix Pix said:
Kid, do yourself a favor and go to a local camera shop and handle several cameras before making a decision. DON'T just order one off an internet website!!!!!!!!! Ergonomics is very important when handling camera bodies. What may feel good to one person may not feel too great to another person. Nikons have always felt right to me, Canons don't -- but that has nothing to do with image quality. Canon and Nikon both produce excellent cameras and excellent lenses; it is more a matter of individual preference that determines which system one will choose.

<<I talked to my teacher about the Nikon D40, and she said that the pros use canon, and the reason you see Nikons allot is because Nikon sponsors allot of stuff having to do with photography, and also Nikon cameras\lens' have to be cleaned once every two months, which costs $35-$75 (each time you have them cleaned) and the canon ones also have to get cleaned, but a place near my house does it for free...>>

Ah, your teacher needs to learn a few things about cameras. Clearly he/she has a real bias, too, towards Canon vs Nikon, without any genuine knowledge to support what has been said. I've had Nikon cameras for years and the only cleaning I've ever had to do is a quick blowing-out with my Giotto Rocket blower after coming home from a shooting session. I have yet to deal with cleaning the sensor. My lenses get a quick going-over before I use them, no big deal.... Your teacher is full of it, if you want my honest opinion.

I have been a Nikon shooter for many years and am really unfamiliar with Canon's bodies and lenses so will not attempt to offer any suggestions with regard to what you have mentioned in your changed post. All I can say is that it is important to actually handle any camera before making a purchase. Go with what feels best and "right" to you and get out there and start shooting!

Like I said, I didn't mean to get you guys mad, and I did incorrectly quote my teacher, she said most pros use canons, not all...
The only store around where I live that has a DSLR on display, is Target, they have a D40 but it is broken and has no lens, therefor I can't play with it, although it did feel nice... from what I remember. I haven't held any canons, or other Nikons...
And if you read my post, I never said the canon sensors never had to be cleaned, I said that there is a place around my house that does canon sensor cleaning for free... I guess I can check this place out to see if they have the 30D on display for me to play with.
I like the 30D for it's feature, where it finds and eliminates dust... the D40 does not do that, but I am sure there is a Nikon that is under my budget that does do this...

Instead of flaming my thread, at least post camera recommendations... Canon or Nikon,
I know you say it is personal reference, but give me a nice model of each, that is good for me, and in my budget and then I will go around and try to find them on display,

miloblithe · Oct 16, 2007

Tumeg101 said:
Didn't mean to get you guys upset....
She actually just said "Most" pros use canon...
She owns a photography business, she uses canon and her assistant uses Nikon, to see her pics\site go to csbowlinphotography.com
It's not the end of the lens that needs to be cleaned every two months, it's the "sensors" (thats what she called it)
Please don't call my teacher an idiot.
And why is the 30D with a nice lens, a very strange plan?
The XTi wont last me as long, just because it is not as high tech, and doesn't have all the extra features that the 30D has, and that I might be wanting in the future as I progress with my photography. Also, the XTi and XT are small, and hard to hold, although I am only 14, I am\will grow(ing)... If there is a filter I can put on the telephoto lens to help it be a better macro lens along with landscape, and portrait shots, then I won't need\want new lens for a while...

OK, I apologize for being mean. Your teacher probably knows more about photography than I do. Or at least I certainly hope she does.

Have you used a DSLR before? 75-200 is for making things that are far away fill a relatively large part of the frame. If the widest lens you have is 75mm, that will severely limit the kinds of shots you will be able to take.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_view

The XTi does indeed have non-ideal ergonomics for large hands, but as a 6'1" person with a 6'5" wingspan who took about 1000 pictures with his XTi last Saturday, I can assure you that it's an entirely usable camera.

As for the "high tech" in the 30D that the XTi lacks, I can assure you that there is none. It's the same tech. Don't get me wrong. It's a better camera and I'd trade my XTi for one in a second, but if your budget is limited the differences are not worth it.

Filters are a poor solution for making a lens able to focus more closely (macro) or work at a wider or narrower angle. These are low-quality methods (albeit cheap) to achieve what is best accomplished with different lenses.

RevToTheRedline · Oct 16, 2007

If Target is the only camera store around, have your dad take you to a photography store, Target is not a photography store.

Westside guy · Oct 16, 2007

Okay, camera recommendation.

Frankly, since your teacher shoots Canon, and sounds very strongly biased towards the brand - you probably should get a Canon. If you get a Nikon, half your daily/weekly lessons will be spent on non-teaching tangents because she doesn't like the brand.

Since you're 14, if I remember correctly - don't overbuy. Get the Digital Rebel XT (to save a few bucks) or XTi . You're really not going to see the difference between 8 and 10 megapixels (or 10 vs 12 for that matter). Then use your savings to buy some decent glass, since you've got the money. I've used the Canon 18-55mm kit lens, and I don't particularly like it - but I'm a Nikon shooter so what do I know.

If your teacher recommended a different body, then you probably shouldn't be posting the question here anyway.

Which DSLR?

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