Twenty SUVs Damaged in Texas Attack

[eyelikeart]

I want to laugh really...

I mean...the principle of the matter sucks...but it's damned justifying to those who are against these things...

story here (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030903/us_nm/crime_suvs_dc_1)

[mactastic]

Thing is, whoever did this will probably go down under some form of domestic terrorism law. And go to jail for a very long time. If it's just kids, they're in real trouble now.

[Mr. Anderson]

That's just stupid - but if you're in the market for a cheap SUV......;)

and that Earth Liberation Front - the ELFs? bwahahahaha:rolleyes:

Oh, I'm dying here.....:D

D

[eyelikeart]

ELF's? :eek:

I'm laughing...should I call u Fozie Bear now or wait till I have some tomatoes to throw at u? :D

[Stelliform]

I see a booming business in Car lot security systems.... Hmmmm...

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by eyelikeart
ELF's? :eek:


www.earthliberationfront.com

seems to be shut down....

whois:

Thurston, Darren (EARTHLIBERATIONFRONT-DOM)
NO ORG NAME
PO Box 78061, 2606 Commercial Drive
Vancouver, B.C. V5N1G8
CA

Domain Name: EARTHLIBERATIONFRONT.COM

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
Thurston, Darren (DTT61) darren@TAO.CA
PO Box 78061, 2606 Commercial Drive
Vancouver BC V5N1G8
CA
604-618-5469

Record expires on 22-Nov-2003.
Record created on 04-May-2002.
Database last updated on 4-Sep-2003 10:46:43 EDT.

Domain servers in listed order:

DNS.ENVIROWEB.ORG 208.40.195.228
DNS2.ENVIROWEB.ORG 208.40.195.4

and this link:

http://www.furcommission.com/debate/words6.htm

"Earth Liberation Front, one of the most dangerous terrorist groups in the country"

wacko's

:rolleyes:

[eyelikeart]

that's weird...hmm...

[Moxiemike]

There was another post about a similar attack in West Covina.

Looks like these kids are fa real.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=35967&highlight=suvs+and+destroyed

Interesting stuff. I'd like to sit down and chat with these folks. I definitely agree that SUVs are a massive (pun intended ;) ) problem and there should be legislation against them somehow.

That said, the dealerships are only being proper capitalists and preying on the general stupidity of americans in general.

I'd be more down if these kids went into the "classy" suburbs and did the same thing to the families that drive around their one kid in a Suburban or an Escalade because "they need to protect their kids"

Or better yet, the phonies who tool around in h2's. I'm definitely a fan of that.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
I'd be more down if these kids went into the "classy" suburbs and did the same thing to the families that drive around their one kid in a Suburban or an Escalade because "they need to protect their kids"

So let me get this straight - you're saying that these ELFs should go and vandalize personal property just because.....?

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Mr. Anderson
So let me get this straight - you're saying that these ELFs should go and vandalize personal property just because.....?

Well, the people who buy these monstrosities are worse than the dealers IMHO. The dealers are selling what they know the public will scoop up like lemmings.

So if you're gonna do it to the dealers, do it to the idiots who buy these things. ;)

Sure. Why not. I'm all for the people who sticker SUVs with bumper stickers that say "i'm helping the environment, ask me how?"

A normal family DOES NOT need one of these things toride back and forth from the café to their suburban McMansion....

So go get 'em! ;)

[Mr. Anderson]

I don't think condoning violence in this way is even a remotely intelligent. There needs to be an alternative to this sort of activism. Sure its an issue, but violence is not a solution.

You're not going to get people to sell their cars by shooting out the windows and slashing tires. And what happens if they get caught doing it? Someone gets hurt.

Its all so stupid. :rolleyes:

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Mr. Anderson
I don't think condoning violence in this way is even a remotely intelligent. There needs to be an alternative to this sort of activism. Sure its an issue, but violence is not a solution.

You're not going to get people to sell their cars by shooting out the windows and slashing tires. And what happens if they get caught doing it? Someone gets hurt.

Its all so stupid. :rolleyes:

Well, we live in a country that condones violence. So why not play along? Eh?

[wdlove]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
Well, we live in a country that condones violence. So why not play along? Eh?

So when did we become a country that condones violence? We still live in a free country, so they have a right to buy the SUV and not have personal attacks.

Maybe the car dealerships could have a reverse invisible dog fence!

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
Well, we live in a country that condones violence. So why not play along? Eh?

Yeah, that's a good argument.:rolleyes: Sure things can be hypocritical at times, but allowing violence like that would be just plain stupid.

Anyone busting up my stuff would have to face justice - no exceptions. Trying to take a 'ends justify the means' approach is pretty much going to lead to anarchy. No one wins then.

Blah....

D

[mactastic]

Becuase 2 wrongs do not make anything better. Peaceful protest should be the way they make their point. I thoroughly disagreed with the issue of the 10 commandments monument, but those people did it right. No violence, no intimidation, no property destruction. These extremist groups need to realize that they are hurting the cause they wish to help when they act like this. This isn't an issue of SUV's, I totally agree with the principles they support, but the tactics are inexcuseable.

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by wdlove
So when did we become a country that condones violence? We still live in a free country, so they have a right to buy the SUV and not have personal attacks.

Maybe the car dealerships could have a reverse invisible dog fence!

Ummm. Let's see... how about that whole pre-emptive war on iraq from a few months back?

The one where americans are still getting killed. And so are iraqis.

[mactastic]

Would it be ok with you if the dealers decided violence was ok too and started shooting trespassers?

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by mactastic
Would it be ok with you if the dealers decided violence was ok too and started shooting trespassers?

Sure. It IS the American way, right?

[mactastic]

No, it's not.

This thread's goin political real fast.

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by mactastic
No, it's not.

This thread's goin political real fast.

I'm glad y'all picked up on the sarcasm.

Though i AM all for this:

http://www.changingtheclimate.com/

[jelloshotsrule]

unfortunately, violence IS condoned by the country as a whole.

that said, i don't support this stuff.

use the time/money spent on these attacks and educate people about what they're doing when they drive these things. educate them about what our government is doing (nothing really) to support alternative energies and such.

or tutor someone. or whatever.

unless it's a flash mob eh? ;)

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Mr. Anderson
Anyone busting up my stuff...

did you really just say that? ice cube? or is it ice t?

[Abstract]

Originally posted by mactastic
No violence, no intimidation, no property destruction. These extremist groups need to realize that they are hurting the cause they wish to help when they act like this.

How does this hurt the cause? People are more responsive and attentive to violent actions and protests than to "talking". The 10 Commandments "thing" was highly publicized because it involved a lot of angry people from all surrounding States, and because it involved religion. It got by without the need for violence, but this is a rarity.

Nobody pays attention to stories that indirectly condemn their lifestyle. If theres a news story about inhumane working conditions and paltry salaries at clothing manufacturers.......just change the channel. Sure, you may be indirectly enslaving the 3rd world, but you don't have to hear it. This is a 1st world attitude. That's why anti-corporate, anti-materialist protests (eg: G8 summit) end up involving spray-paint, destruction of commercial property, and sparse violent outbreaks. If they didn't, it wouldn't get more than a brief mention on the news, either print media or televised media.

If somebody talked about how bad SUVs are, do you think it would be in the news? No, but if 20 kids scratch up a few cars, we hear about it. I'd say they're helping their cause, as bad as that sounds to you..........and I.

[mactastic]

They are also making it easier for those who disagree with them to dismiss them out of hand because of their tactics. So yes, we hear more about it on the news, but it's not good press. I think actions like this harden people into more extreme positions rather than creating a dialog that will lead to productive compromises.

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
did you really just say that? ice cube? or is it ice t?

M.C. Macrumors in da hizzzzzhouseeeeeeeeeee

yo! yo! yo!

I gots da post count crown and some crown royal.

And bizatches on my tip 'cuz i'm postin' 19.5.

Yoooooo!

sorry. couldn't resist.

Jello... you bring out the worst in me. hehe

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Abstract
How does this hurt the cause? People are more responsive and attentive to violent actions and protests than to "talking". The 10 Commandments "thing" was highly publicized because it involved a lot of angry people from all surrounding States, and because it involved religion.

Nobody pays attention to stories that indirectly condemn their lifestyle. If theres a news story about inhumane working conditions and paltry salaries at clothing manufacturers.......just change the channel. Sure, you may be indirectly enslaving the 3rd world, but you don't have to hear it. This is a 1st world attitude. That's why anti-corporate, anti-materialist protests (eg: G8 summit) end up involving spray-paint, destruction of commercial property, and sparse violent outbreaks. If they didn't, it wouldn't get more than a brief mention on the news, either print media or televised media.

If somebody talked about how bad SUVs are, do you think it would be in the news? No, but if 20 kids scratch up a few cars, we hear about it. I'd say they're helping their cause, as bad as that sounds to you..........and I.

Exactly. Unfortunately most americans are too "me me me" and apathetic to really understand the consequences of their rabid consumerism. And it seems you have to make a splash to get noticed these days. :rolleyes:

[jelloshotsrule]

abstract- i see your point. and as one of these anti-materialist, anti-corporate people, i get what you're saying.

the problem is, even *with* the violence these stories don't get much attention. there was essentially NO major media coverage (in the US i'm talking) about the protests at the summit in canada (forget which city) where people were gassed and such. likewise, very limited coverage of the protests in nyc... even IN the city itself.

also, take a look at peoples' responses here... "those people are idiots" "whackos" etc... people who don't want to see their destructive nature won't see it with or without violence, unfortunately...

this is why i think people need to start at home. if you know some relatives, friends, neighbors who have an suv, but don't really need it, talk to them about it. not in a condescending way, but let em know about their options. about the new hybrids (some which look the exact same as their gas counterparts). let them know about diesels. inform them of the safety problems with suvs. etc.

people are ignorant, and it's much much harder to reach people on a large scale with a passing news story than it is to talk to them directly.

it's amazing to see peoples' reaction to my brother's hybrid civic... "wow, i didn't know they had those". etc. people just don't know. and torching some suvs won't enlighten them, ya know?

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
Exactly. Unfortunately most americans are too "me me me" and apathetic to really understand the consequences of their rabid consumerism. And it seems you have to make a splash to get noticed these days. :rolleyes:

see, i don't see these "splashes" really getting noticed. and i certainly don't see them causing any substantial change.

it's great to cry revolution, but it's not as productive as getting out there and starting one, even in a small scale. and revolution means change. if you think these violent acts are causing change, i'd have to disagree.

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
see, i don't see these "splashes" really getting noticed. and i certainly don't see them causing any substantial change.

it's great to cry revolution, but it's not as productive as getting out there and starting one, even in a small scale. and revolution means change. if you think these violent acts are causing change, i'd have to disagree.

Right. But it IS a chink in the armour, so to speak.

While we do need stories about the hybrid civics and whatnot... it seems like america like violent stories. Y aknow?

It's all part of the process. though i tend to disagree. In europe, you wouldn't need to vandalize SUVs. But then again, they're also sophisticated enough on the whole to not NEED them

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
Right. But it IS a chink in the armour, so to speak.

While we do need stories about the hybrid civics and whatnot... it seems like america like violent stories. Y aknow?

It's all part of the process. though i tend to disagree. In europe, you wouldn't need to vandalize SUVs. But then again, they're also sophisticated enough on the whole to not NEED them

so to speak, but not really

as though these huge corporations can't write off a couple hundred suvs? their margins are so damn high it's a joke.

and again, america likes violent stories yes. but can you point me to where they've seen these stories and actually been affected?

[mactastic]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
and again, america likes violent stories yes. but can you point me to where they've seen these stories and actually been affected?

Vietnam.

Civil Rights Movement.
(Of course the people wanting civil rights were not the source of the violence, but seeing the police/white response on tv gave a lot of people a new perspective on the matter.)

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by mactastic
Vietnam.

Civil Rights Movement.
(Of course the people wanting civil rights were not the source of the violence, but seeing the police/white response on tv gave a lot of people a new perspective on the matter.)

heh, you made my response for me, no? ;)

ultimately, was it the peaceful protest of MLK Jr, or the violence of the black panthers who helped attain some equality for blacks?

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
heh, you made my response for me, no? ;)

ultimately, was it the peaceful protest of MLK Jr, or the violence of the black panthers who helped attain some equality for blacks?

I think it was both.

But the result was the same.... Civil rights being passed... but MLKjr... how did he die again? Violently. That might have made more of an impact overall....

[mactastic]

Thats my argument too actually. I was just being argumentative.;) Violence causes harm to your goals, unless it is being done to you. What this suggests is that the public sympathies will go to the SUV dealerships and not the vandals.

[Abstract]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
....let them know about diesels. inform them of the safety problems with suvs. etc.

people are ignorant, and it's much much harder to reach people on a large scale with a passing news story than it is to talk to them directly.


Maybe its unnecessary, but unless it makes the news somehow, the ignorant will remain ignorant because they don't hear it on the news, read about it, or have their friends tell them. People hear this and pass the news along, but they have to get it from somewhere. Unless the news is "intriguing", it really doesn't spread. Violence and destruction is intriguing, and even if some people don't agree with what happened, they become more aware of an issue that they may or may not have ever thought of, or were simply not aware it existed.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by Abstract
Maybe its unnecessary, but unless it makes the news somehow, the ignorant will remain ignorant because they don't hear it on the news, read about it, or have their friends tell them. People hear this and pass the news along, but they have to get it from somewhere. Unless the news is "intriguing", it really doesn't spread. Violence and destruction is intriguing, and even if some people don't agree with what happened, they become more aware of an issue that they may or may not have ever thought of, or were simply not aware it existed.

I'm guessing that you are only in favor of violence when it furthers your aims. Or do you feel that shooting abortion providers is a good thing? How about the killing of Mathew Sheppard? Or how about when the US uses force in ways you don't approve of? I'm guessing you aren't a war supporter, yet your logic seems to encourage war as an means to an end.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
did you really just say that?

it was 'busting' not bustin'.....;)

And one of the issues at stake here is that the ELFs are zealots - and as everyone who spends any time on these forums knows, zealotry is not a strong position for any argument.

D

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Abstract
Maybe its unnecessary, but unless it makes the news somehow, the ignorant will remain ignorant because they don't hear it on the news, read about it, or have their friends tell them. People hear this and pass the news along, but they have to get it from somewhere. Unless the news is "intriguing", it really doesn't spread. Violence and destruction is intriguing, and even if some people don't agree with what happened, they become more aware of an issue that they may or may not have ever thought of, or were simply not aware it existed.

my point is that people still aren't getting it. violence or not. they aren't saying "hey, i really wonder why these people feel so strongly about suvs being bad..." they say "those ****ing whackos! hey, check this out, some liberal ****ups did some more vandalism!"

i guess there's the theory that no publicity is bad publicity, but i don't think that's the case

i think the WWJD (what would jesus drive?) and the arianna huffington supported/started tv ads were much more effective... the first appealed to christians (often conservative, often not "environmentally aware"), and the latter appealed to anyone who's bought into this terrorists are the root of all evil stuff...


who does the violence really appeal to? whose attention does it not only get, but hold?

[Stelliform]

I don't know why people get so worked up over SUV's. There are thousands upon thousands of 15 year old cars (or older) that get 10 miles to the gallon and pollute horribly. These should be the target of the environmentally extreme. But that wouldn't be very PC to go after the poorer population. So instead they go after richer people who's car gets twice the gas mileage of these older cars.

I started in a 1983 Dodge RAM pickup and I got 8 miles to the gallon. My next car is a 2000 Ford Explorer and I get 18 miles to the gallon. Would they rather that I stay in my Dodge pickup?

If it was a choice between my Dodge or any car, I would have kept my Dodge. :D

[mactastic]

Yeah, but all the old cars will eventually die. The problem only gets better if we can slow the production of new low-mileage vehicles.

[bitfactory]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
Well, the people who buy these monstrosities are worse than the dealers IMHO. The dealers are selling what they know the public will scoop up like lemmings.

So if you're gonna do it to the dealers, do it to the idiots who buy these things. ;)

Sure. Why not. I'm all for the people who sticker SUVs with bumper stickers that say "i'm helping the environment, ask me how?"

A normal family DOES NOT need one of these things toride back and forth from the café to their suburban McMansion....

So go get 'em! ;)

congrats! that's the dumbest post i've seen in the forums in a LONG time!

if these morons wanted to attack something that is 'harming the environment' why not go after OLD cars that emit MUCH more damaging exhaust than new SUVs do. as a matter of fact, most SUVs are WELL below emissions standards guidelines - some are even cleaner than most new sedans.

and yeah, SUVs may get 13-20MPG, but who really gives a sh*t ? if you wiped out ALL the SUVs in the USA, the drop in demand of imported petrol would be insignificant at best.

[bitfactory]

Originally posted by Stelliform
I don't know why people get so worked up over SUV's. There are thousands upon thousands of 15 year old cars (or older) that get 10 miles to the gallon and pollute horribly. These should be the target of the environmentally extreme. But that wouldn't be very PC to go after the poorer population. So instead they go after richer people who's car gets twice the gas mileage of these older cars.

I started in a 1983 Dodge RAM pickup and I got 8 miles to the gallon. My next car is a 2000 Ford Explorer and I get 18 miles to the gallon. Would they rather that I stay in my Dodge pickup?

If it was a choice between my Dodge or any car, I would have kept my Dodge. :D

bingo.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by bitfactory
and yeah, SUVs may get 13-20MPG, but who really gives a sh*t ?

haha. don't have any kids eh? don't plan on having any kids eh?

who cares as long as i can live comfortably now. whoo!!!

[jadariv]

Originally posted by Stelliform


I started in a 1983 Dodge RAM pickup and I got 8 miles to the gallon. My next car is a 2000 Ford Explorer and I get 18 miles to the gallon. Would they rather that I stay in my Dodge pickup?



Damn! If computers advanced at the speed of automobiles we would just be breaking the 2 MHZ processor speed.

And that is what this is all about.

[vwcruisn]

Originally posted by bitfactory
congrats! that's the dumbest post i've seen in the forums in a LONG time!

if these morons wanted to attack something that is 'harming the environment' why not go after OLD cars that emit MUCH more damaging exhaust than new SUVs do. as a matter of fact, most SUVs are WELL below emissions standards guidelines - some are even cleaner than most new sedans.

and yeah, SUVs may get 13-20MPG, but who really gives a sh*t ? if you wiped out ALL the SUVs in the USA, the drop in demand of imported petrol would be insignificant at best.

Yes.. but an old pinto will not kill me when the cell phone talking, white yuppie soccer mom runs a red light, t-bones me, and her bumper lines up with my skull.

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by vwcruisn
Yes.. but an old pinto will not kill me when the cell phone talking, white yuppie soccer mom runs a red light, t-bones me, and her bumper lines up with my skull.

Add to that the new trend of soccer moms taking speed to "get everything done that they need to get done in a day" and you have a nice triple threat.

Overheard two women talking about it the other day

Saw another woman get arrested for wrecking her BMW Urban Assault Vehicle into a telephone pole. i talked to the cops and they said she was all up on PCP. Brilliant. Give the rich more $$.

In this case, christ, vadalizing the SUVs might keep them off the road enough to prevent a casulaty or four.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
In this case, christ, vadalizing the SUVs might keep them off the road enough to prevent a casulaty or four.

Ah, but you see, the solution here is not with the SUVs, its with the people driving them. All those traits you just described can be done in any vehicle. In this case it just happens to be an SUV.

Get to the cause of the problem, just not one of its symptoms.....;)

D

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Mr. Anderson
Ah, but you see, the solution here is not with the SUVs, its with the people driving them. All those traits you just described can be done in any vehicle. In this case it just happens to be an SUV.

Get to the cause of the problem, just not one of its symptoms.....;)

D

Well, there's a couple causes of the problem, MC.

First off, we have the irresponsibility of the dumbarses who drive them. We have the yuppie soccer moms, we have the guys who prance around in their SUVs who suffer from Napoleon complex, etc etc etc.

Now we also have the proven facts that these vehicles themselves are a) dangerous b) inefficient and c) make the driver more likely to engage in road rage, reckless driving, etc. "Tank syndrome" if you will.

So we have multiple problems that lead to a danger for the people who are driving around in energy efficient cars, smaller cars, etc etc. We have dangers to pedestrians. There's the story of a mom who ran over her kid because she was late for work and rushing out.

Think she would have seen the kid if she was driving a car that allowed for a better field of view in the back? Probably. What WAS she driving? An Escalade.

So there's the issue of responsibility... but there's also the underlying fact that these machines are dangerous, inefficient, and are a leading cause for more "reckless" driving.

I mean, if you FEEL safer in your Element, i'm sure you might be more inclined to pay less attention to the world around you? (not you per se, but you have one, so you're a good example. i'll use you in this case.)

SUVs, by their construction, tend to make the world more dangerous, just through the psychological implications they impose on the driver. :)

[Mr. Anderson]

Ha, well, you've been in my element. Its not in the same league as the SUVs - its not really an SUV, its in its own class and much smaller.

But its also the car companies making these things, if you want to start throwing around blame. Make a minimum fuel efficiency rating for private vehicles.....set it at 20MPG - that would cull the field of many SUVs...;)

D

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Mr. Anderson
Ha, well, you've been in my element. Its not in the same league as the SUVs - its not really an SUV, its in its own class and much smaller.

But its also the car companies making these things, if you want to start throwing around blame. Make a minimum fuel efficiency rating for private vehicles.....set it at 20MPG - that would cull the field of many SUVs...;)


i tend to agree that of all suvs, the element is the best... in that it's fairly efficient, and has some nice features. it also actually has space (given the boxiness), rather than being rounded and sleek and thus losing the space which is just one of the excuses people use for "needing" one.

as for the 20 mpg rating, it's good in theory, but i don't see any current admin making said change... money... oil... etc

and the idea of an "average mpg" is a good idea on the surface, but unfortunately holds very little weight.

i can explain if need be. but i'm tired. hah


as for accidents and dumb drivers. yes, dumb drivers drive all sorts of cars. and i have a problem with sports cars because they tend to make the drivers feel too cool for school as well. not to mention efficiency. that said, if you get hit by a vw golf, vs getting hit by an asscalade... huge huge difference. regardless of how dumb the driver is

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Mr. Anderson
Ha, well, you've been in my element. Its not in the same league as the SUVs - its not really an SUV, its in its own class and much smaller.

But its also the car companies making these things, if you want to start throwing around blame. Make a minimum fuel efficiency rating for private vehicles.....set it at 20MPG - that would cull the field of many SUVs...;)

D

Right. And i'm not singling out your element but there was that one time when parking....

People in general these days pay less attention. People in ANY SUV seem to pay even LESS attention to their surroundings. It's the "i'm bigger i'm better" thing.

And to hell with the 20mpg rating. What i'm saying is that, unless you're a licensed contractor, or a park ranger or whatever, where you need 4x4 and an SUV, you pay a luxury tax. And that lux tax goes into say, a kitty for education.

And if the SUV DOES get under 20mpg, then you pay a luxury tax as well.

I also think that there should be a minimum height for driving an SUV. My 5-2 sister has one and it's terrifying to drive with her in it.

And with that there should be specialized licensing for SUVs like there are motorcycles.

And yea... i think it should go to include ALL SUVs, whether they're small range (like you element, which is an SUV, i'm sorry to tell ya) to the Escalades. It could be tiered to reflect size and consumption.

And i'm sure idiots would pay these taxes for the privlege. But, if it were doing somehting good, i'd be ok with that- i.e. funnelng it into education, repairing roads, etc etc etc.

[jelloshotsrule]

escalade? what's that? ;)

a bit of a tangent but... something that's annoying nonetheless

why haven't car/truck/suv manufacturers been forced to aim their headlights lower? i mean, clearly since their lights are higher up, they will be up in peoples' eyes moreso than a cars. and everyone knows about it... "does that person have their highbeams on? oh, it's a truck/suv"... i don't get why this problem hasn't been fixed. doesn't seem terribly complex.

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
escalade? what's that? ;)

a bit of a tangent but... something that's annoying nonetheless

why haven't car/truck/suv manufacturers been forced to aim their headlights lower? i mean, clearly since their lights are higher up, they will be up in peoples' eyes moreso than a cars. and everyone knows about it... "does that person have their highbeams on? oh, it's a truck/suv"... i don't get why this problem hasn't been fixed. doesn't seem terribly complex.

nice point. ever notice how even 18 wheelers have lower lights than SUVs?


Urban Assault Vehicle—The Escalade (http://www.cadillac.com/cadillacjsp/models/gallery.jsp?model=escalade)

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
nice point. ever notice how even 18 wheelers have lower lights than SUVs?


Urban Assault Vehicle—The Escalade (http://www.cadillac.com/cadillacjsp/models/gallery.jsp?model=escalade)

yeah, that's true now that i think about it


i guess you didn't catch my joke. re-read my previous post (before i asked about escalade)... ;)

[bitfactory]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
And if the SUV DOES get under 20mpg, then you pay a luxury tax as well.


you do pay a 'luxury tax' - every time you fill it up at the pump. luxury taxes are DUMB - true Democrat ideology.

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
yeah, that's true now that i think about it


i guess you didn't catch my joke. re-read my previous post (before i asked about escalade)... ;)

brilliant. :) asscalade. What to circumvent the censor filter. ;)

Man. I'm just so glad I drive a nice, efficient, spunky Saab. I had some guy in a SOB, er... SUV tailgate me for a little while last night. Almost went blind.

Just dropped my car a gear, took off, and STILL managed to get 27 miles to the gallon. :)

Hehee.

Oh. And I can take turns quickly as well. :)

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by bitfactory
you do pay a 'luxury tax' - every time you fill it up at the pump. luxury taxes are DUMB - true Democrat ideology.

So? Tax them more. :)

If we're going to narrow the amount of freedoms we have here, why not go all the way and tax the living crap out of SUV owners??

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
brilliant. :) asscalade. What to circumvent the censor filter. ;)

Man. I'm just so glad I drive a nice, efficient, spunky Saab. I had some guy in a SOB, er... SUV tailgate me for a little while last night. Almost went blind.

Just dropped my car a gear, took off, and STILL managed to get 27 miles to the gallon. :)

Hehee.

Oh. And I can take turns quickly as well. :)

you can say "ass" all you want here. hah

riding in my bro's civic hybrid is a real treat. i mean, my 98 prizm isn't bad (roughly 30 mpg), but 50 mpg would be a nice jump.

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
you can say "ass" all you want here. hah

riding in my bro's civic hybrid is a real treat. i mean, my 98 prizm isn't bad (roughly 30 mpg), but 50 mpg would be a nice jump.

very nice. you guys should take me for a ride sometime. We could go sticker SUVs in Shadyside. It'll be fun

My mom had a prizm. it was nice. then she bought a 626. Now that car is a guzzler.

[wdlove]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
Ummm. Let's see... how about that whole pre-emptive war on iraq from a few months back?

The one where americans are still getting killed. And so are iraqis.

The war with Iraq was to protect us from Terrorism, remember 9/11!

The American I live in still does not condone violence. Here in Boston Blacks in the inner city had a march not long ago. They wanted to take ther city back from kids killing kids!

[Mr. Anderson]

A luxury tax isn't going to keep the SUVs off the roads. You're talking about people who pay of $50k for a new SUV - a little tax is not enough.

There needs to be a movement from the car makers to change this.

D

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by wdlove
The war with Iraq was to protect us from Terrorism, remember 9/11!

The American I live in still does not condone violence. Here in Boston Blacks in the inner city had a march not long ago. They wanted to take ther city back from kids killing kids!

what did iraq have to do with september 11/al qaeda? the links that were brought out were a stretch, and very weak.

al qaeda=radical muslim group
saddam=non religious

have you watched the news lately? what is 90% of the stories? violence...


mikey-shadyside? sure... pittsburgh is a dump dude

duke- as mike said, if the tax goes towards something good (education, etc) at least it's a bigger penalty. likewise, i think we should pay the real cost of gas, a la europe. problem there is that everyone suffers, including the poor with crappy old inefficient cars...

also, you really think the car industry will change without pressure from gov't? why would they? it'd cost them money. for research. and their suv margins are massive. why give that up?

[NavyIntel007]

Originally posted by Abstract
How does this hurt the cause? People are more responsive and attentive to violent actions and protests than to "talking". The 10 Commandments "thing" was highly publicized because it involved a lot of angry people from all surrounding States, and because it involved religion. It got by without the need for violence, but this is a rarity.

Nobody pays attention to stories that indirectly condemn their lifestyle. If theres a news story about inhumane working conditions and paltry salaries at clothing manufacturers.......just change the channel. Sure, you may be indirectly enslaving the 3rd world, but you don't have to hear it. This is a 1st world attitude. That's why anti-corporate, anti-materialist protests (eg: G8 summit) end up involving spray-paint, destruction of commercial property, and sparse violent outbreaks. If they didn't, it wouldn't get more than a brief mention on the news, either print media or televised media.

If somebody talked about how bad SUVs are, do you think it would be in the news? No, but if 20 kids scratch up a few cars, we hear about it. I'd say they're helping their cause, as bad as that sounds to you..........and I.

Totally agree. Their message is getting spread out. I don't think people would feel the brunt of it all unless more and more people's SUVs were damaged at the mall with a note attatched. These guys can blow up car dealerships but the average household isn't going to care. However, if your friends SUV keeps getting keyed, slashed tires, smashed windows, hood dents and notes left saying your vehicle is damaging the earth Love, the ELF. People will stop buying them because why do they want a car that gets smashed?

[NavyIntel007]

Originally posted by Mr. Anderson
A luxury tax isn't going to keep the SUVs off the roads. You're talking about people who pay of $50k for a new SUV - a little tax is not enough.

There needs to be a movement from the car makers to change this.

D

Range gas prices from $2-$2.30.

Then watch those SUVs disappear.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
Range gas prices from $2-$2.30.

Then watch those SUVs disappear.

We're already there in CA, no-one has anything cheaper than $2.05 here.

If it persists long enough maybe, but I doubt it.

[synergy]

Is it just SUVs in general or gas hogging SUVs?

Toyota through their Lexus brand will introduce a hybrid SUV next year I believe. Should get 40MPG. Much better than an H2.

Although I have noticed many stupid drivers in SUVs. They think just because I drive a car they can jam themselves in whenever they can regardless of the space/distance between us. That does not happen much at all when I drive our minivan which comes on par in size terms with an SUV. Then people don't seem to be the stupid road hogs when a vehicle of comparable size is around. But when I drive our Saturn Ion then people think I am bigger, haha watch me run over you. I hate those kind of drivers. Too little respect for the rules of the road.

Of course my wife and I take the bus every day to work. We only drive 3 minutes to the park and ride and from there wait for the bus. I fill the gas tank in our minivan about once a month. Gotta love that.

[jadariv]

Carbon emissions in the United States have risen at an average annual rate of 0.8 percent during the past 25 years.
U.S. carbon emissions are the product of : (1) demand for energy services; (2) end-use energy efficiency; (3) energy transformation efficiency; and (4) the choice of fuels used.
The use of energy services has tended to track the growth of the U.S. economy. But, emissions have grown much more slowly than the U.S. economy or even energy consumption, because of the increases in energy efficiency and large-scale fuel switching.
Periods of declining emissions have tended to coincide with periods of prolonged higher energy prices.
In the 1990's, with real energy prices at lower levels than previous decades and further fuel switching of marginal importance, energy consumption and emissions track economic growth much more closely than in the preceding two decades.
The carbon emissions range between 5 and 6 metric tons per person per year.


The average annual rates of carbon dioxide emissions varied by sector during the past 25 years -- Residential, 0.7 percent; Commercial, 1.6 percent; Industrial, -0.04 percent; Transportation, 1.4 percent.
Carbon dioxide emissions grew in all sectors during the past decade.
Carbon dioxide emissions in the Industrial sector are still lower than they were in the 1970's. This is partly due to a shift in the structure of the U.S. industry from energy-intensive basic industries (steel and chemicals), towards more complex and less raw material-intensive products -- a shift that can be partly due to fuel switching and increasing energy efficiency.
Carbon dioxide emissions in the Transportation sector were stabilized in the early 1980's by the increasing fuel efficiency of post-1980 model cars. However, as vehicle fuel efficiency gains have diminished, transportation emissions have resumed their growth.


Source: For 1990-1997, Energy Information Administration, Emissions of Greenhouses Gases in the United States 1997, DOE/EIA-0573(97). (Washington, DC, report in preparation). For other years, EIA estimates based on unpublished analysis.


Just some food for thought. Some of this is good news and some is bad.

Some other facts:

The U.S. (with 5% of the worlds population) uses 25% of the worlds energy resources.

Since 1988, vehicle energy efficiency has stayed static. Actually, it has gone down in recent years from 28.7 mpg (average) to 27.7.

Transportation pollutants replaced all other sources (including industrial pollution) as the top source in the late nineties.

[Stelliform]

Originally posted by Mr. Anderson
A luxury tax isn't going to keep the SUVs off the roads. You're talking about people who pay of $50k for a new SUV - a little tax is not enough.

There needs to be a movement from the car makers to change this.

D

I disagree. I drove a car for 6 months and I have decided it isn't for me. I will most likely never buy a car for my personal vehicle, so I imagine that the car manufacturers are going to keep making what the consumers want. I am sure that I am not alone in wanting an SUV.

If the elves do not like SUV's they will have to change public opinion. But the problem is that they can't. The SUV thing isn't a big deal for most people. Kids getting raped and killed in Africa scores a little above SUV's guzzling gas on the average American's concern list. And you see how very little is being done by the average american to help the war torn african children...

I think the elves are just bored yuppie kids looking to rebel from their parents. Who else would care that much?

Edit: I hope my point came through in my cryptic sentences. I am tired and can't think of a good way to rewrite them so they are clearer. :)

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Stelliform
I disagree. I drove a car for 6 months and I have decided it isn't for me. I will most likely never buy a car for my personal vehicle, so I imagine that the car manufacturers are going to keep making what the consumers want. I am sure that I am not alone in wanting an SUV.

If the elves do not like SUV's they will have to change public opinion. But the problem is that they can't. The SUV thing isn't a big deal for most people. Kids getting raped and killed in Africa scores a little above SUV's guzzling gas on the average American's concern list. And you see how very little is being done by the average american to help the war torn african children...

I think the elves are just bored yuppie kids looking to rebel from their parents. Who else would care that much?

Edit: I hope my point came through in my cryptic sentences. I am tired and can't think of a good way to rewrite them so they are clearer. :)

Christ. America should look at it's own problems first! Horrid educational scores, rampant drug use amongst teenagers, a liar and murderer for a president, etc etc before we should be involved in Iraq, Africa, North Korea, whoever!

The SUV IS a big deal for most americans. There's book written about them. Studies done regarding their dangers and inefficiencies. And on and on and on.

I dunno what rock you've been living under.... but god.... thinking that America, a country in what I see as complete disarray, should get involved in another country's business is utter stupidity and another 4 billion per month Iraq in the making!

Your cryptic sentences only have made me think you're not well informed at all.

[chadfromdallas]

I love america and its ways :D I hope gas stays the way it is, SUVs continue to be sold, and that every person that complains about america drops off the earth. :D :cool:

[vwcruisn]

Originally posted by chadfromdallas
I love america and its ways :D I hope gas stays the way it is, SUVs continue to be sold, and that every person that complains about america drops off the earth. :D :cool:

Hmm.. I'm assuming that you are just being sarcastic... and youre not really serious so I won't take this too seriously... but by denying someone's right to "complain" about america makes YOU the un-american. Oh and btw, I'm not sure if you heard... but there was a recent discovery regarding the earth's shape. Its round. Cant drop off. Sorry.

[chadfromdallas]

Originally posted by vwcruisn
Hmm.. I'm assuming that you are just being sarcastic... and youre not really serious so I won't take this too seriously... but by denying someone's right to "complain" about america makes YOU the un-american. Oh and btw, I'm not sure if you heard... but there was a recent discovery regarding the earth's shape. Its round. Cant drop off. Sorry.



Wasn't being sarcastic, and if it makes you a little happier, I hope they tie these kinds of people to fossil fuel burning rockets and blast them off into space :D . I don't care if its un-american to deny someone the ability to complain, its annouying. ;)

[Stelliform]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
[B
Your cryptic sentences only have made me think you're not well informed at all. [/B]

If you mean informed as in listening to what organisations like ELF have to say, then I guess I am not informed. I do not listen or believe a word they say.

I wasn't referring to the government getting involved with helping people from other countries. We all know the last thing we need is another government program. I was referring to the nuts who trashed those SUV's. I think they should be fighting for humanity's biggest problems, not the driving preference of the middle class.

Also I personally believe that our responcibility to humanity does not end at the border. I am sad that you think a car that gets 18 miles to the gallon is more important than the suffering and deaths of millions.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by Stelliform
I disagree. I drove a car for 6 months and I have decided it isn't for me.

But you drove one car for 6 months or several.

There are plenty of options out there the bridge the gap between an SUV and a car. Subaru Outback, Volvo SUV (which really isn't like the ones we're talking about), etc. These vehicles have all wheel drive (one of the main reasons I like them) and get better than 20 mpg.

There are options and if the manufacturers tried, there'd be even more.

And gas prices over $3 could be a deterrent - but it would take years at that price to have any long term effect. You'd have to see that its not changing and the car companies would have to shift their production agenda to accommodate all of that.

D

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by chadfromdallas
Wasn't being sarcastic, and if it makes you a little happier, I hope they tie these kinds of people to fossil fuel burning rockets and blast them off into space :D . I don't care if its un-american to deny someone the ability to complain, its annouying. ;)

proud americans who can't even speak english should be tied to fossil fuel burning rockets and then blasted out. because, not speaking english is un-american.


seriously. "annouying"?

oh? typo? right. ;)

[Stelliform]

Originally posted by Mr. Anderson
But you drove one car for 6 months or several.

There are plenty of options out there the bridge the gap between an SUV and a car. Subaru Outback, Volvo SUV (which really isn't like the ones we're talking about), etc. These vehicles have all wheel drive (one of the main reasons I like them) and get better than 20 mpg.

There are options and if the manufacturers tried, there'd be even more.

And gas prices over $3 could be a deterrent - but it would take years at that price to have any long term effect. You'd have to see that its not changing and the car companies would have to shift their production agenda to accommodate all of that.

D

O.K. I see where you are coming from now.... Slightly smaller designs with better gas milage. (i.e. no excursions or H2s. ;))

I personally think that the Auto makers easily could have cars out with multitudes better gas milage. But until it starts hurting sales, I don't see them doing it...

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
proud americans who can't even speak english should be tied to fossil fuel burning rockets and then blasted out. because, not speaking english is un-american.


seriously. "annouying"?

oh? typo? right. ;)

But jello, it's VERY AMERICAN to not be able to spell, form well-formed sentences, and know how to speak properly!

You know? Because it's VERY AMERICAN to spend time playing sports and being coddled for it instead of say, learning.

Sad, but true....

[mactastic]

Originally posted by Mr. Anderson
And gas prices over $3 could be a deterrent - but it would take years at that price to have any long term effect. You'd have to see that its not changing and the car companies would have to shift their production agenda to accommodate all of that.

D

The $3 price point is the one that will start to change peoples attitudes about SUVs IMHO. If it's costing $60 each time you fill up, and you can only go 400 miles that's gonna make a few people think twice.