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MacRumors
Oct 22, 2007, 06:01 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

During today's financial conference call (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/22/apple-4q-2007-results-conference-call-6-22-billion-revenue-904-million-prof/), Apple revealed that they estimate that about 250,000 iPhones were purchased by individuals intending to unlock them.

No details on how Apple came to this conclusion. Apple, of course, would know exactly how many iPhones had been activated through AT&T.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2007/10/22/250000-iphones-sold-to-unlockers/)



aerospace
Oct 22, 2007, 06:04 PM
Most likely total sold minus phones that have not been activated after 2 weeks of purchase or something to that effect.

iDAG
Oct 22, 2007, 06:08 PM
I had no idea that people hated at&t that much...

bigandy
Oct 22, 2007, 06:11 PM
I had no idea that people hated at&t that much...

it's not just hating att, because there are quite a few that have made it over here, and quite a few other non-us territories.

walexx
Oct 22, 2007, 06:13 PM
Hopefully this will make Apple sit up and take notice. People want the iPhone and they want it now. They dont want to be locked into a network and well, they should just release an unlocked version and be done with it.

The fact that there are 250k unlocked phones and there and forums around the world have these people posting their thoughts and experiences and confirming the networks that it will work on is great and free market research and field testing for Apple.

They think they know whats best for people but 17% of all iPhone sales tell a very different story. Apple really needs to sit up and take notice.

Victor ch
Oct 22, 2007, 06:15 PM
I had no idea that people hated at&t that much...

Or that there is no AT&T where they live :rolleyes: But its interesting here in Costa Rica there are a couple of idiots making profit for unlocking iPhones they charge 750-900$ a piece :eek: I just hope that they cannot unlock 1.1.1 and loose their money; unlocked ones to individuals or people who do not make profit should be OK but guys like the ones Im telling just make me sick, they see it at a business not a give me 5$ and I'll unlock it, but instead I'll sell you one for 900$

-Victor

elppa
Oct 22, 2007, 06:16 PM
Hopefully this will make Apple sit up and take notice. People want the iPhone and they want it now. They dont want to be locked into a network and well, they should just release an unlocked version and be done with it.

The fact that there are 250k unlocked phones and there and forums around the world have these people posting their thoughts and experiences and confirming the networks that it will work on is great and free market research and field testing for Apple.

They think they know whats best for people but 17% of all iPhone sales tell a very different story. Apple really needs to sit up and take notice.

They also know what's good for their wallets and the revenue they get from these exclusive deals with O2, Orange, T-Mobile, the new AT&T etc. are really good for Apple as they allow them to make money long after the phone has shipped.

Drumjim85
Oct 22, 2007, 06:18 PM
Now i can see why Apple is Trying so hard to lock the phones and make people move over to ATT to use them ...

average iphone plan = $90/month
Apple makes %30 of that ?? (right?)

90*24(months)*.3*250,000 = $162,000,000

kwood
Oct 22, 2007, 06:20 PM
it's not just hating att, because there are quite a few that have made it over here, and quite a few other non-us territories.

Yeah, I saw one up in Toronto Canada last Friday. And no it was not an iPod touch, I know the difference.

Luis
Oct 22, 2007, 06:22 PM
I had no idea that people hated at&t that much...

I would use it with ATT if I could, the problem is that there is no ATT over here.

odedia
Oct 22, 2007, 06:26 PM
Hey, I by myself represent 3 out of those 250,000 phones.

And I don't even live in the U.S. but I use them quite well here in Israel :D.

Free the iPhone!

ogee
Oct 22, 2007, 06:29 PM
unlocked ones to individuals or people who do not make profit should be OK but guys like the ones Im telling just make me sick, they see it at a business not a give me 5$ and I'll unlock it, but instead I'll sell you one for 900$

-Victor

Thats supply and demand. I got an iPhone over ebay for 399 Euros, had to pay tax on top so total cost was about 460 Euros. The person who sold it to me paid 399 US$ so he made a profit.

I unlocked the phone and after a week I sold it for 520 Euros. I will get an official one for myself one day, but not just yet. Had I not been offered a profit I would have kept it.

Victor

Darkroom
Oct 22, 2007, 06:31 PM
Yeah, I saw one up in Toronto Canada last Friday. And no it was not an iPod touch, I know the difference.

could have been an american... but it's true that i'm sure many canadians have unlocked iPhones... and to tell you the truth i'm sure the number of unlocked iPhones will increase dramatically once Rogers announces their ridiculous cost/plan rates for the iPhone when it's finally released here...

kwood
Oct 22, 2007, 06:44 PM
could have been an american... but it's true that i'm sure many canadians have unlocked iPhones... and to tell you the truth i'm sure the number of unlocked iPhones will increase dramatically once Rogers announces their ridiculous cost/plan rates for the iPhone when it's finally released here...

That's true, I have never thought about that. But I know of a bunch of Canadians who have "talked" about buying one and unlocking it. But none of them have actually done it.

alljunks
Oct 22, 2007, 06:52 PM
they should just sell it unlock...and sell more....

most people do not want the new contract....not-necessary its ATT's problem..

chr1s60
Oct 22, 2007, 07:03 PM
I am sure not all 250,000 of these have been unlocked. The high majority of them probably have been, but depending on how long they wait to declare them unlocked there could be a lot of phones out there that have been purchased that are waiting to be sold, waiting to be given as a gift, or any other reason.

Grimace
Oct 22, 2007, 07:19 PM
The exclusive AT&T deal was the comprimise for Apple taking a cut of the monthly phone bill. That is good for Apple, but comes at the expense of choice.

Apple is probably banking on the government passing legislation that says you can't lock a phone to one carrier. Sorry AT&T -- it's the law!! :p

sananda
Oct 22, 2007, 07:21 PM
they should just sell it unlock...and sell more....


they can't now; they have tied themselves up with at&t for five years.

BuckarooBonzai
Oct 22, 2007, 07:39 PM
I want to violate my warranty; hack the phone so I could use T-Mobile (The only other GSM provider in the US). Who (by the way) leases most of their network from AT&T. Now once I'm on T-Mobile, I could sign up for their $39.99 Total Internet Data Plan + $39.99 myFaves 300 talk plan....Instead of AT&T $59.99 iPhone plan that includes talk/data. I think the 250K phones are just a bunch of noise in the system that dominates chat rooms like this. If folks are using this phone in other markets besides the US; I don't see how AT&T will care - They'll get their $175 cancellation fee. That's the US Market view. Internationally...I see your point a little clearer. However, if the manufacturer (Apple) wants to limit their user base. That's their business. Countless products (Electronics and others) do exactly the same thing.

gagarin
Oct 22, 2007, 07:45 PM
it's not just hating att, because there are quite a few that have made it over here, and quite a few other non-us territories.

Right. I think that at&t iPhone plans are pretty good ones (I know nothing about service though) compared to plans here. But, in Ukraine, you just can't use at&t.

I bought 2 of those 250,000: one for friend and one for myself. Friend unlocked his with free anySIM while on 1.0.2, I activated mine but still haven't unlocked it. I have a phone for calls and wait for the dust after new firmware brickage to settle. Personally, I'm inclined to pay and use IPSF. Still no guaranties if it's really update proof.

I buy songs and videos on iTMS and like to preview new music(I find iTMS really good alternative to buying full albums in normal stores) so I really want these 1.1.1 update. And know what? I would become pretty upset if Apple had to decide to do something on purpose to lock my iPhone unbreakable after I'll unlock it.

Rodimus Prime
Oct 22, 2007, 07:45 PM
The exclusive AT&T deal was the comprimise for Apple taking a cut of the monthly phone bill. That is good for Apple, but comes at the expense of choice.

Apple is probably banking on the government passing legislation that says you can't lock a phone to one carrier. Sorry AT&T -- it's the law!! :p


some how I could see there being a clause in the contract saying if that happens AT&T does not have to hand over a dime. Also there would be some loop hole in that law allowing them still to do it.

BuckarooBonzai
Oct 22, 2007, 07:51 PM
For AT&T this is a huge non-issue. They basically negotiated for Apple to stick with the GSM-enabled device. Thus, regardless of any unlocking device; it leaves Verizon Wireless - The only competition AT&T has out in the cold. Trust me, AT&T is not worried about T-Mobile. The other GSM US provider; who leases a majority of their Wireless Spectrum from AT&T anyways. On top of that, T-Mobile's rate plans are more expensive than AT&T's.

notjustjay
Oct 22, 2007, 07:55 PM
I found a store here in Ottawa that sells them for $699 Cdn. Ouch! Assumed unlocked, but I didn't ask.

lord patton
Oct 22, 2007, 08:19 PM
They think they know whats best for people but 17% of all iPhone sales tell a very different story. Apple really needs to sit up and take notice.

nope.

They also know what's good for their wallets and the revenue they get from these exclusive deals with O2, Orange, T-Mobile, the new AT&T etc. are really good for Apple as they allow them to make money long after the phone has shipped.

yup.

elgruga
Oct 22, 2007, 08:33 PM
we have iPhones!

There are around 1700 ads for iPhones on Craigslist Vancouver over the last 3 months.
I thnk that maybe there are 3-5000 iPhones in the Vancouver area, but this is more of a Mac place than Toronto -?

Apple know that the figure of 250,000 is accurate - how could they not?

Its obvious that the iPhone will be sold unlocked soon enough, as it is in France when it launches.

Do I like my iPhone? NO.
I LOVE it!

As for the As*****s at Rogers - they will never 'get it' - they are too STUPID to see that if more people used their data plans, they would make more money, so they continue to offer.....wait for it......50 mb a month for $65!
Total wankers. Who cares if it ever comes to Rogers? We have all the unlocked iPhones we need from Seattle area, although they are going for $550 here, which is a premium of around $50 if the iPhone was priced the same as the iPod touch at $449 plus 13% taxes.

Its still worth it, even though the warranty may get a bit iffy....

bbarnhart
Oct 22, 2007, 08:43 PM
...Now once I'm on T-Mobile, I could sign up for their $39.99 Total Internet Data Plan + $39.99 myFaves 300 talk plan....Instead of AT&T $59.99 iPhone plan that includes talk/data. ...

You don't need the $39.99 (or whatever it is) T-Mobile plan. You can get the $5.99 (or whatever) which includes unlimited internet and email, but not push email. For me and my wife who are on T-Mobile, which we are very happy with the service, it would be $69.99 for 1000 minutes + 2 x 5.99 for $82. This is much less than $130 for two phones. Plus, another phone would be $30 vs $10 on T-Mobile.

And, I'd have to play $600 for two phones. If the phones were subsidized, we might switch. We are thinking about the BB Curve which would be $500 (2x$250). But for now, we'll just wait.

I'm not sure about your comment about T-Mobile renting AT&T's network. Do you have any links for that?

mplsmnguy
Oct 22, 2007, 08:58 PM
I even saw an 'unlocked' iPhone when I was in Bali on holiday in early September. I asked the guy if he lived in the U.S. and he said Italy. I wasn't sure if it was unlocked but I certainly hope so, fortunately AT&T credited my $100 in charges for turning the phone off airplane mode 5 times to check SMS messages when it did something in the background.

Apple certainly wants to prevent the unlock of phones but my AT&T service is generally good and cheap, for domestic use. You are seriously screwed if you are international and take this phone and don't know to NOT use it. Fortunately the new upgrade that lets you turn of EDGE will help but again, limited publicity on that as well...

PURCELL429
Oct 22, 2007, 08:59 PM
For AT&T this is a huge non-issue. They basically negotiated for Apple to stick with the GSM-enabled device. Thus, regardless of any unlocking device; it leaves Verizon Wireless - The only competition AT&T has out in the cold. Trust me, AT&T is not worried about T-Mobile. The other GSM US provider; who leases a majority of their Wireless Spectrum from AT&T anyways. On top of that, T-Mobile's rate plans are more expensive than AT&T's.


Of course, you can't really blame them for going with ATT over Verizon...since all of europe is GSM, they don't have to make an entirely new phone just to sell it overseas....even if they unlock the phone, only T-mobile customers can use it anyway, which is a fairly small percentage here. In the US, it made sense to lock it down, but not so much overseas...

BuckarooBonzai
Oct 22, 2007, 09:03 PM
I'm not a 100% sure, but with CDMA technology (Verizon Wireless); the handset provider has to pay Qualcomm a royalty to use their patented Technology. So, I'm sure that's another reason to avoid CDMA for Apple. I'm sure Vodafone is going to push their partner (Verizon) to switch technology at some point. Vodafone's supply chain infrastructure is built around GSM.

Victor ch
Oct 22, 2007, 09:37 PM
Thats supply and demand. I got an iPhone over ebay for 399 Euros, had to pay tax on top so total cost was about 460 Euros. The person who sold it to me paid 399 US$ so he made a profit.

I unlocked the phone and after a week I sold it for 520 Euros. I will get an official one for myself one day, but not just yet. Had I not been offered a profit I would have kept it.

Victor

Ok, thats seems clean but the guys here selling them for 900$ and actually seeing this as a business is illegal, I read at engadget.com that as long as you do not make profit out of it (unlocking iPhones) your not doing anything "bad" what you did is not "bad" although is sorta illegal your not making a business out of it which is what I meant.

-Victor

Drumjim85
Oct 22, 2007, 09:40 PM
Its obvious that the iPhone will be sold unlocked soon enough, as it is in France when it launches.


No, its not obvious. Explain... What makes you think apple doesnt have some kind of trick up their sleeves. From outrageous prices, to having the text only in French... Who knows whats going to happen..

MacPhilosopher
Oct 22, 2007, 09:43 PM
I heard that up to 40% of the phones were being bought and taken out of the country. What are the total units sold? 1.35 Million? That certainly brings it down to a reasonable figure. Say 20%. I wonder if they are primarily going out of the country. If that is the case, they will need to do something to increase US domestic sales when they introduce in Europe. Though, I have already had friends from France asking where best to pick up a Nano while in the US.(Ahhhh. The Apple Store.) The exchange rate is so strong that it is too tempting not to have them shipped out. Perhaps Apple will single handedly recoup our net losses in trade deficits overseas.

samh004
Oct 22, 2007, 09:43 PM
I want to violate my warranty; hack the phone so I could use T-Mobile (The only other GSM provider in the US). Who (by the way) leases most of their network from AT&T. Now once I'm on T-Mobile, I could sign up for their $39.99 Total Internet Data Plan + $39.99 myFaves 300 talk plan....Instead of AT&T $59.99 iPhone plan that includes talk/data. I think the 250K phones are just a bunch of noise in the system that dominates chat rooms like this. If folks are using this phone in other markets besides the US; I don't see how AT&T will care - They'll get their $175 cancellation fee. That's the US Market view. Internationally...I see your point a little clearer. However, if the manufacturer (Apple) wants to limit their user base. That's their business. Countless products (Electronics and others) do exactly the same thing.

Some people text a lot more than they talk, or don't want to use EDGE at all because their city is wired with hot spots (haha I know). So the rates that are given wherever the iPhone goes are sometimes very pointless to some people.

For myself, I use pre-paid in Asia and get through USD$12 every 2 months or so... so do you think it would benefit me going on a USD$59.99 plan equivalent here ?

quigleybc
Oct 22, 2007, 10:52 PM
could have been an american... but it's true that i'm sure many canadians have unlocked iPhones... and to tell you the truth i'm sure the number of unlocked iPhones will increase dramatically once Rogers announces their ridiculous cost/plan rates for the iPhone when it's finally released here...

I see an iPhone two or three times a week in Vancouver now a days....

MattInOz
Oct 22, 2007, 10:53 PM
I heard that up to 40% of the phones were being bought and taken out of the country. What are the total units sold? 1.35 Million? That certainly brings it down to a reasonable figure. Say 20%. I wonder if they are primarily going out of the country. If that is the case, they will need to do something to increase US domestic sales when they introduce in Europe. Though, I have already had friends from France asking where best to pick up a Nano while in the US.(Ahhhh. The Apple Store.) The exchange rate is so strong that it is too tempting not to have them shipped out. Perhaps Apple will single handedly recoup our net losses in trade deficits overseas.


I would guess most of this 250,000 was going to places outside to U.S.
I wonder if Apple knows exactly where they are going (linked to iTunes anyway) and is using that as a bargaining tool in those countries.

I had the friendly "are you happy with current service" call from Vodafone Aus the other day, when i said i was holding off new phone till i see what's happening iPhone in this country, he commented that that was a common response.

I know of a couple of people with phones already, and a stack more who want them.

JPark
Oct 22, 2007, 11:21 PM
they can't now; they have tied themselves up with at&t for five years.

4 years, 8 months. But who's counting? :D

daneoni
Oct 22, 2007, 11:28 PM
they can't now; they have tied themselves up with at&t for five years.

iPhone 1 yes. iPhone 2?....probably not

artalliance
Oct 22, 2007, 11:41 PM
iPhone 1 yes. iPhone 2?....probably not

:confused:

Of course all current and subsequent models will be covered. AT&T isn't that stupid.

IDANNY
Oct 23, 2007, 12:11 AM
Hey, I by myself represent 3 out of those 250,000 phones.

And I don't even live in the U.S. but I use them quite well here in Israel :D.

Free the iPhone!

dont you miss the 3.5g?

daneoni
Oct 23, 2007, 12:25 AM
:confused:

Of course all current and subsequent models will be covered. AT&T isn't that stupid.

Nor is Apple. First two revs maybe...spanning 4 yrs (2 2yrs contracts) and then they part ways but even then, i have a feeling Apple would have made some wiggle room/backdoor for themselves.

BlueRevolution
Oct 23, 2007, 04:09 AM
As for the As*****s at Rogers - they will never 'get it' - they are too STUPID to see that if more people used their data plans, they would make more money, so they continue to offer.....wait for it......50 mb a month for $65!
Total wankers. Who cares if it ever comes to Rogers? We have all the unlocked iPhones we need from Seattle area, although they are going for $550 here, which is a premium of around $50 if the iPhone was priced the same as the iPod touch at $449 plus 13% taxes.

You know, the lovely thing about the iPhone coming to Canada would be that Rogers (or whatever happy provider got an illegal monopoly here) would be forced to introduce a decent data plan. Imagine using the YouTube feature on the iPhone when you're paying obscene amounts for data over 50 megs. It'd be like buying a new iPhone every two months.

The reason the iPhone won't come to Canada in the near future is that Rogers won't introduce a decent data plan.

Sometimes I hate being Canadian.

On another note, I'm a little suspicious that Apple may have developed the iPhone to be unlockable as a way of getting around their contract with AT&T while being able to throw up their hands and say "wasn't us!". Whether intentionally or not, AT&T certainly pressured Apple with whatever penalties are written into the contract for violation, which is why Apple released 1.1.1. I suspect Apple doesn't care about unlockers one way or another.

Bojaniste
Oct 23, 2007, 04:25 AM
if there was AT$T here, i would be happy to activate it with them and use my iphone regulary... but we dont have here at$y so i have to use T-mobile network and use hacked iphone :)
not that i mind :):):)
i unlocked my iphone by my self using tutorials and tools from web, but here in macedonia, they want 150Eur for unlocking, or 650 eur for unlocked iphone...
thats too much... 650EUR = aprox. 900$...
BEst regards

maestrokev
Oct 23, 2007, 04:50 AM
You know, the lovely thing about the iPhone coming to Canada would be that Rogers (or whatever happy provider got an illegal monopoly here) would be forced to introduce a decent data plan. Imagine using the YouTube feature on the iPhone when you're paying obscene amounts for data over 50 megs. It'd be like buying a new iPhone every two months.

The reason the iPhone won't come to Canada in the near future is that Rogers won't introduce a decent data plan.

Sometimes I hate being Canadian.

I'm starting to wonder whether Rogers will price their data plan any better, it might only be a slight discount but certainly not at par with AT&T. Think about how much more Canadians typically pay for products/services versus Americans. Those expensive data plans haven't hindered people from using Blackberries. In the absence of competition from another GSM provider, Rogers has no reason to lower their rates.

Veljo
Oct 23, 2007, 07:37 AM
If Apple were smart they would have released one product that could be used on any network worldwide. The fact that one end of the globe has to wait so long is ridiculous.

Take me for instance I live in Australia, we won't get them till 2008 some time, and I have one working perfectly on the Vodafone network charging in its dock next to me.

At the price the iPhone is being offered, it is EXPECTED that it should be unlocked. Locked to a network, prices of phones in Australia are instantly slashed by at least 50%. That being said, for a small fee ANY phone can be totally unlocked.

rjwill246
Oct 23, 2007, 11:48 AM
Hopefully this will make Apple sit up and take notice. People want the iPhone and they want it now. They dont want to be locked into a network and well, they should just release an unlocked version and be done with it.

The fact that there are 250k unlocked phones and there and forums around the world have these people posting their thoughts and experiences and confirming the networks that it will work on is great and free market research and field testing for Apple.

They think they know whats best for people but 17% of all iPhone sales tell a very different story. Apple really needs to sit up and take notice.

You have missed the point as have all the people who want unlocked iPhones. ATT and Apple had to come up with some arrangement that guaranteed that the iPhone would sell. Just releasing the iPhone, unlocked, hoping people would not only buy it but find carriers who would take it on, would have been a catastrophe. Sales would have been a fraction of the current numbers, because Apple was warned- threatened even- that the big phone manufacturers would lean on the carriers NOT to carry the iPhone.

What really ticks me off about all the whining about unlocked phones and "why can't we have them in this or that country" shows a lack of understanding of how the mobile phone market works. Carriers all over the world dictate to phone makers what features that they will/will not allow and what charges will be made for the extra features.

Apple got ATT to NOT cripple the iPhone and this was a major breakthrough.

For its part, ATT has done a great job and the rates are very reasonable. They deserve to make money for the risk they took and the costs of upgrading the network to carry the iPhone.

When people deny ATT revenue it is showing a complete disregard of the above.

Note: most of the complaints are not from the US but from overseas. Weird!!! The US customer satisfaction rate for the iPhone and ATT from recent surveys shows overwhelmingly positive results. Reading these posts gives no indication whatsoever what the public thinks.

And, I will bet you that most of those 250,000 iPhones were not destined for use in the US. Europeans have been in NYC buying 5 at a time to take back to Europe, so the 17% does not really represent dissatisfaction with the Apple/ATT arrangment. Again, this forum gives a very distorted view of what is really happening.

artalliance
Oct 23, 2007, 12:05 PM
Nor is Apple. First two revs maybe...spanning 4 yrs (2 2yrs contracts) and then they part ways but even then, i have a feeling Apple would have made some wiggle room/backdoor for themselves.

Not if they signed a five year exclusive deal. AT&Ts would be retarded to let Apple insert wiggle room in the contract.

If anything, they might have been an early termination clause if the product would have flopped. But not the other way around.

sananda
Oct 23, 2007, 12:10 PM
Note: most of the complaints are not from the US but from overseas. Weird!!!

that's because of the difference in the mobile phone market between the US and other countries. the overwhelming majority of US mobile phone users have a long term contract with an air time provider. for them iphone is an attractive proposition. they were going to be in some sort of contract anyway, the tariffs are reasonable, and they like iphone. whereas for instance in the UK only 35% of mobile users have any sort of contract at all. so it is quite a change for them to have to enter into a long term contract to use their phone of choice.

7on
Oct 24, 2007, 05:45 PM
You don't need the $39.99 (or whatever it is) T-Mobile plan. You can get the $5.99 (or whatever) which includes unlimited internet and email, but not push email. For me and my wife who are on T-Mobile, which we are very happy with the service, it would be $69.99 for 1000 minutes + 2 x 5.99 for $82. This is much less than $130 for two phones. Plus, another phone would be $30 vs $10 on T-Mobile.

And, I'd have to play $600 for two phones. If the phones were subsidized, we might switch. We are thinking about the BB Curve which would be $500 (2x$250). But for now, we'll just wait.

I'm not sure about your comment about T-Mobile renting AT&T's network. Do you have any links for that?

Places where T-mobile doesn't have a tower they will lease an AT&T tower (it was Cingular when the deal was made, and I still sometimes operate on Cingular towers while roaming). I can take a picture of my phone on a cingular tower if you like. I think about a year ago it expanded t-mo's coverage by a third or more. And Cingular got to use T-mo towers where they didn't have coverage.