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MacRumors
Oct 23, 2007, 08:45 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Despite Apple's efforts to restrict seeding to select individuals, it appears that the final build of Leopard has made its way outside of Apple. One individual who claimed to have installed Leopard as an upgrade to their iMac posted his experience. The Mac OS X upgrade took 30 minutes and these were his first impressions:

• All my applications and settings were retained
• Time Machine asked me on the first time I started in leopard, which of my five external Hard Drives should be used for backups. I didn't have to configure anything else
• When I started Mail for the first time, it had to upgrade the mail database. After that, Mail is blazing fast!
• I told Mail to import my RSS Feeds from Safari but that didn't work!
• Reading RSS in Mail is nice to have
• Tasks in Mail appear even if completed. That might be a bit distracting for some people
• Mail is FAST! Seeing is believing!
• Finder: Well, the first time it ran, it hanged! After killing the process, I was amazed by the speed and coverflow!
• Quick View: COOL - GREAT FEATURE
• Safari is blazing fast!
• .mac has the option to synchronize settings and Dock items
• Stacks: I am not impressed. I like the downloads stack though. I had to manually change the path in Mail and Safari though!
• Spaces: I created 4 Spaces and I find it a very cool feature, especially the live ala expose preview
• Applications start instantly, especially iLife and iWork!
• iCal is much better. There is an inline editor and an event drop box now
• Contacts is more or less the same
• iTunes seems much faster than before

Apple's Mac OS X Leopard 10.5 operating system officially launches on Friday, October 26th, 2007.

Copies of Mac OS X Leopard not sanctioned by Apple may reflect illegal distribution of copyrighted material and cannot be condoned. Any requests for or provision of illegal software distributions in our forums will result in post deletion and account banning.


Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/23/mac-os-x-10-5-leopard-first-impressions/)



xUKHCx
Oct 23, 2007, 08:48 PM
way to go made it to the front page despite the best efforts of some to shout him down.

DMann
Oct 23, 2007, 08:48 PM
Thanx Arn!

gugy
Oct 23, 2007, 08:49 PM
overall most comments are good.
Can't wait for Friday

xUKHCx
Oct 23, 2007, 08:50 PM
Thanx Arn!

Hint (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=373637): It wasn't arn

mashinhead
Oct 23, 2007, 08:51 PM
does anyone else find it weird that the rss imports didn't work and that he had to manually create the path to the download stack? That doesn't seem like something they would overlook especially since time machine was made to automatically set up? you sure this is the absolute final version?

arn
Oct 23, 2007, 08:52 PM
does anyone else find it weird that the rss imports didn't work and that he had to manually create the path to the download stack? That doesn't seem like something they would overlook especially since time machine was made to automatically set up? you sure this is the absolute final version?

It's possible that is default behavior in the Upgrade. Not to change your download directories.

I'm sure a default/fresh install would have them set correctly.

arn

Legacy
Oct 23, 2007, 08:53 PM
I'd like to know what the specs of the system they were running it on and whether there will be speed improvements for G4 machines.

arn
Oct 23, 2007, 08:54 PM
I'd like to know what the specs of the system they were running it on and whether there will be speed improvements for G4 machines.

it was 2.33GHz Intel Core 2 Duo iMac with 3GB of RAM. Original thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=373637)

arn

xUKHCx
Oct 23, 2007, 08:55 PM
I'd like to know what the specs of the system they were running it on and whether there will be speed improvements for G4 machines.

They are running it on a 2.33 GHz C2D iMac with 3 GB RAM

j-a-x
Oct 23, 2007, 08:55 PM
Cool. So what does he dislike about stacks? I'm thinking they will be nicer than my current App launcher which is basically right clicking a folder in the dock.

Sky Blue
Oct 23, 2007, 08:56 PM
1 down, 25(ish?) million to go

Eidorian
Oct 23, 2007, 08:56 PM
Looks like I'll be working with a clean ~/Library.

Sora
Oct 23, 2007, 08:57 PM
So excited, can't wait until Friday.

psychofreak
Oct 23, 2007, 08:59 PM
Looks like I'll be working with a clean ~/Library.

Me too, but as I'll only have the uptodate disk to work with, its gonna take a while unfortunately.

mashinhead
Oct 23, 2007, 08:59 PM
Cool. So what does he dislike about stacks? I'm thinking they will be nicer than my current App launcher which is basically right clicking a folder in the dock.

Sounded like he thought it wasn't that amazing a feature. I mean when you think about it you can do this with the current version.

DoreanGrae
Oct 23, 2007, 08:59 PM
Any word on Time Machine working with AirPort drives?

psychofreak
Oct 23, 2007, 08:59 PM
How did you get Leopard already? Did your copy ship early, or what? Let me know!

Piracy...Leopard is on the torrent sites...

elppa
Oct 23, 2007, 09:01 PM
Lots of comments about speed and responsiveness, which doesn't surprise me in the slightest. There is definite room for improvement in Tiger and it sounds like Apple have done a lot of tweaking in this area to deliver great performance.

Safari respecting your original downloads preference is no big deal. They probably should have checked to see the downloads folder was set to the Desktop and then changed it to the Downloads stack. Just and oversight, a clean install would get the default right, but I wouldn't use that as a justification for a clean install.

ricgnzlzcr
Oct 23, 2007, 09:02 PM
I'd like to know what the specs of the system they were running it on and whether there will be speed improvements for G4 machines.

I really want to know that as well. I feel like they really will be slower once Leopard is installed but I'm hoping for a surprise from Apple

mashinhead
Oct 23, 2007, 09:02 PM
Piracy...Leopard is on the torrent sites...

i've honestly never understood torrents. dont they take days to dl?

queshy
Oct 23, 2007, 09:03 PM
Wow, the fact that the user reported speed boosts is great - I wasn't expecting a boost in speed...! Can't wait for friday...

Eidorian
Oct 23, 2007, 09:04 PM
Me too, but as I'll only have the uptodate disk to work with, its gonna take a while unfortunately.That might need a little work. I'll be starting with a new machines. :D

i've honestly never understood torrents. dont they take days to dl?I can get Ubuntu (~700 MB) in about 20-30 minutes via torrents from home.

psychofreak
Oct 23, 2007, 09:05 PM
i've honestly never understood torrents. dont they take days to dl?

It depends how many people are sharing them at what speed, this one seems to have been downloaded by some in only a few hours...

tbazani
Oct 23, 2007, 09:06 PM
so... Leopard it's FASTER than Tiger?

it will run FASTER than Tiger in my machine?

Eidorian
Oct 23, 2007, 09:06 PM
so... Leopard it's FASTER than Tiger?

it will run FASTER than Tiger in my machine?It'll be faster on multiprocessor machines.

psychofreak
Oct 23, 2007, 09:07 PM
so... Leopard it's FASTER than Tiger?

it will run FASTER than Tiger in my machine?
On some hardware yes, maybe not in your Mac much, but if you have enough RAM in your Mini, it should fly :)

tbazani
Oct 23, 2007, 09:10 PM
It'll be faster on multiprocessor machines.

like my Mini? (1.66ghz dual core)

tbazani
Oct 23, 2007, 09:11 PM
On some hardware yes, maybe not in your Mac much, but if you have enough RAM in your Mini, it should fly :)

1,5 GB here...
i hope it can fly. lol

GoCubsGo
Oct 23, 2007, 09:11 PM
While I am just as excited (ok not as much) as the next person, is it really wise/right/sane to make this news when someone openly said he downloaded an illegal copy of the software but feels validated in doing so since he pre-ordred a family pack? Just curious but clearly it's ok or it wouldn't be here.

Leopard appears cool and it is great that the person who downloaded it finds mail to be blazing fast. RSS fees in Mail is indeed a cool feature. Not a must have but it will become a great to have in no time at all.

gonnabuyamac
Oct 23, 2007, 09:13 PM
i want to do a clean install, but i want to keep my data and settings. how can i do that? i have Backup from .mac and an external hard drive, but is there a better way?

Eidorian
Oct 23, 2007, 09:13 PM
like my Mini? (1.66ghz dual core)Among other Macs.

xUKHCx
Oct 23, 2007, 09:13 PM
snip

See here


Copies of Mac OS X Leopard not sanctioned by Apple may reflect illegal distribution of copyrighted material and cannot be condoned. Any requests for or provision of illegal software distributions in our forums will result in post deletion and account banning.

Snide
Oct 23, 2007, 09:14 PM
Not to piss on the parade, but why is MacRumors glorifying software piracy,
even if this "report" is for real (which I highly doubt; most likely he's describing
a previously pirated Leopard build).

AfonsoSantos
Oct 23, 2007, 09:14 PM
Hi.

Does timemachine works in a network? I mean, can u have an external disk on one iMac and the rest of the network backingup on the some one?

Thanks, and thanks for the first impressions!

Afonso Santos,
Portuguese Mac User

Lesser Evets
Oct 23, 2007, 09:14 PM
I will believe speed when I see it.

Someone saying something is fast is completely relative.
The rest of the stuff was good.

xUKHCx
Oct 23, 2007, 09:16 PM
Not to piss on the parade, but why is MacRumors glorifying software piracy,
even if this "report" is for real (which I highly doubt; most likely he's describing
a previously pirated Leopard build).

Check the original thread for pictures.

ProstheticHead
Oct 23, 2007, 09:17 PM
Does Apple have any way of tracking pirated copies of Leopard (like how Windows makes you register as specific ID number for each copy)?

I've never had to enter a code or anything with any of my previous (legal) copies of operating systems so I guess I've never thought of what would happen when people stole it.

Abstract
Oct 23, 2007, 09:19 PM
Speed improvements in Mail.app?


I'm sold now. Definitely upgrading for this!!

DeaconGraves
Oct 23, 2007, 09:20 PM
Does Apple have any way of tracking pirated copies of Leopard (like how Windows makes you register as specific ID number for each copy)?

Not yet...

GoCubsGo
Oct 23, 2007, 09:23 PM
Speed improvements in Mail.app?


I'm sold now. Definitely upgrading for this!!Actually it was this riveting report on a downloaded copy of Leopard that made me pre-order for Friday.

psychofreak
Oct 23, 2007, 09:23 PM
Speed improvements in Mail.app?


I'm sold now. Definitely upgrading for this!!

Apparently Mail and iCal are both instant-open on Leopard...fantastic!

xUKHCx
Oct 23, 2007, 09:24 PM
Crap, sorry!

If that's the case though, why is this page 1 news?

I assume it has to do with the law. They are allowed to report 3rd party information but not allowed to assist in obtaining that information. Not that i know anything about law, so don't take my word on it.

Mykbibby
Oct 23, 2007, 09:25 PM
I assume it has to do with the law. They are allowed to report 3rd party information but not allowed to assist in obtaining that information

Got it... sorry about that! Can you not delete my account though?

macboy62
Oct 23, 2007, 09:27 PM
While I am just as excited (ok not as much) as the next person, is it really wise/right/sane to make this news when someone openly said he downloaded an illegal copy of the software but feels validated in doing so since he pre-ordred a family pack? Just curious but clearly it's ok or it wouldn't be here.

Jessica, I agree with you. This post will just encourage illegal file sharing. Which I think has two problems...

1. Lost of revenue for Apple. I don't want to lose Apple because of that and I don't want Apple to have to start with "Activation" to protect their product. They trust us, we should repay that trust by buying the product.

2. It just gives ammunition to the Music and Movie industries. I can hear the "I told you iPod owners steal music; that's why we need DRM" already.
:(

xUKHCx
Oct 23, 2007, 09:27 PM
Got it... sorry about that! Can you not delete my account though?

Not up to me, i'd suggest to PM arn (or another mod) and speak to him about it.

Glenn Wolsey
Oct 23, 2007, 09:29 PM
it was 2.33GHz Intel Core 2 Duo iMac with 3GB of RAM. Original thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=373637)

arn

Was about to ask this question. If the user is reporting "blazing" speed increases on a dual core MacBook Pro, I'm looking forward to seeing what it produces on my quad core Mac Pro.

ventro
Oct 23, 2007, 09:29 PM
Anyone know if there is a new iTunes in 10.5 or is it the same old 7.4.2?

arn
Oct 23, 2007, 09:30 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/1C28 Safari/419.3)

First impressions of the final version of Leoard is newsworthy.

You think AppleInsider had a "legal" copy of leopard to do their leopard series?

I do not condone piracy and we will ban anyone trying to distribute or facilitate piracy here. But if someone is honest/stupid enough to post first impressions of the final build of Leopard in a public forum, it is of interest.

arn

psychofreak
Oct 23, 2007, 09:31 PM
Was about to ask this question. If the user is reporting "blazing" speed increases on a dual core MacBook Pro, I'm looking forward to seeing what it produces on my quad core Mac Pro.

The Mac Pro is in line for the biggest improvements...

For me, the main changes should come in a speedier final Safari, as that is the app I use most...

DoreanGrae
Oct 23, 2007, 09:32 PM
Well now that that's settled...

Can we get any info on Time Machine and AirPort disks? I'm sure a lot of people are dying to find out if the removal of that paragraph from the Leopard site is really as bad an omen as it seems.

(I'm one of them)

queshy
Oct 23, 2007, 09:33 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/1C28 Safari/419.3)

First impressions of the final version of Leoard is newsworthy.

You think AppleInsider had a "legal" copy of leopard to do their leopard series?

I do not condone piracy and we will ban anyone trying to distribute or facilitate piracy here. But if someone is honest/stupid enough to post first impressions of the final build of Leopard in a public forum, it is of interest.

arn

Agreed. This is a news/rumors site, after all.

bęte noire
Oct 23, 2007, 09:34 PM
iTunes seems much faster than before


I look forward to hearing four-minute songs played in three minutes. Might all sound a bit soprano but that's the price you pay for progress.

xUKHCx
Oct 23, 2007, 09:35 PM
Well now that that's settled...

Can we get any info on Time Machine and AirPort disks? I'm sure a lot of people are dying to find out if the removal of that paragraph from the Leopard site is really as bad an omen as it seems.

(I'm one of them)

The guy is from Germany and it is very early in the morning there as well as the fact that the moral people waded quite heavily in on that thread and scared him away.

Palestrina
Oct 23, 2007, 09:35 PM
Did Apple put this guy up to it? How did he get a copy? What makes him so special?! :rolleyes:

However, after reading his post, my RSS feeds sure seem snappier.

Giovanni Palestrina

DoreanGrae
Oct 23, 2007, 09:35 PM
The guy is from Germany and it is very early in the morning there as well as the fact that the moral people waded quite heavily in on that thread and scared him away.

Ah, gotcha. Thanks.

xUKHCx
Oct 23, 2007, 09:36 PM
Did Apple put this guy up to it? How did he get a copy? What makes him so special?! :rolleyes:

However, after reading his post, my RSS feeds sure seem snappier.

Giovanni Palestrina

If you are really that interested there are 3 links to the original thread on the first page, you can read for yourself

daneoni
Oct 23, 2007, 09:37 PM
Isn't it risky for the guy to be posting photobooth images of himself?.....if he isn't legit that is

I dunno what it is or why but i am just not that excited about Leopard my stance on the whole OS is....meh.

michaelrjohnson
Oct 23, 2007, 09:37 PM
Well now that that's settled...

Can we get any info on Time Machine and AirPort disks? I'm sure a lot of people are dying to find out if the removal of that paragraph from the Leopard site is really as bad an omen as it seems.

(I'm one of them)

I'm not sure we're going to get any new information coming through in this thread, however, this issue is of particular interest to me, as well.

In fact, it was one of the primary reasons I planned on buying a new Mac *and* Airport...

davebarnes
Oct 23, 2007, 09:46 PM
"pre-ordred a family pack"
Well, if you did, then it seems to me that downloading 10.5 early is not exactly theft.
You paid for it.
You are just getting it 3 days early. BFD.

Legacy
Oct 23, 2007, 09:48 PM
I have just noticed that the 'megahertz' limitation probably doesnt apply to dual-core G4 systems. If you have a look at this page:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306687

It says that a Dual G4 at 800MHz suffices to initiate a 10-person audio conference.

1) To initiate one must obviously have a copy of Leopard. Therefore it WILL install on Dual 800MHZ G4 systems.

2) This may mean that the megahertz limitation doesnt apply to dual-core G4 systems.

3) The requirement seems to be equated to a 1GHz single core G4. Therefore it seems that probably one may be able to run leopard on systems with slower, dual core processors.

law guy
Oct 23, 2007, 09:52 PM
Says he's got a family pack license. At this point, I imagine that there are multitudes of boxed copies making their way to Apple stores (and distribution centers for on-line orders), perhaps sitting there already ready for the Friday store release or Thursday shipping for Apple's promised over-night parcel delivery on the 26th. Just thinking about the odds - all those copies in all of those stores / distribution warehouses - it's certainly conceivable that it's a legal copy that just escaped into the wild a little early.

daneoni
Oct 23, 2007, 09:52 PM
Says he's got a family pack license. At this point, I imagine that there are multitudes of boxed copies making their way to Apple stores (and distribution centers for on-line orders), perhaps sitting there already ready for the Friday store release or Thursday shipping for Apple's promised over-night parcel delivery on the 26th. Just thinking about the odds - all those copies in all of those stores / distribution warehouses - it's certainly conceivable that it's a legal copy that just escaped into the wild a little early.

Exactly but no....guilty until proven innocent eh

...the fact that the moral people waded quite heavily in on that thread and scared him away.

Shoulda just let the poor guy alone and let him share the info he had. Honestly some people are so annoying...:rolleyes:

lazymuoio
Oct 23, 2007, 09:57 PM
any word on how bootcamp runs, i need to run a windows app for work and i would love to get rid of the old beater i use for windows and run it off my macbook 2.0ghz 512mb ram 80gb

should i get more ram for leopard

izzle22
Oct 23, 2007, 09:57 PM
If you are really that interested there are 3 links to the original thread on the first page, you can read for yourself

Ahhh...No links????

psychofreak
Oct 23, 2007, 09:59 PM
any word on how bootcamp runs, i need to run a windows app for work and i would love to get rid of the old beater i use for windows and run it off my macbook 2.0ghz 512mb ram 80gb

should i get more ram for leopard

I greatly recommend getting more RAM for Leopard...

daneoni
Oct 23, 2007, 10:00 PM
any word on how bootcamp runs, i need to run a windows app for work and i would love to get rid of the old beater i use for windows and run it off my macbook 2.0ghz 512mb ram 80gb

should i get more ram for leopard

Definitely

law guy
Oct 23, 2007, 10:00 PM
Got it... sorry about that! Can you not delete my account though?

Asked Mods to delete his request and follow-ups. I can't understand the "since it's out there, let's all have it" mentality that seems to be behind the request (it's also seems a little crazy to solicit that on a public board). Also the assumption that there's a torrent or piracy and wanting to get in on it if it that's the case.

PCMacUser
Oct 23, 2007, 10:06 PM
1. Lost of revenue for Apple. I don't want to lose Apple because of that and I don't want Apple to have to start with "Activation" to protect their product. They trust us, we should repay that trust by buying the product.


Considering Apple is now a multi-billion dollar corporate empire, similar to Microsoft but with more black t-shirts, I don't think a few pirated copies of Leopard will affect them much. However, I do believe that activation is something they should be doing right now. It just makes sense.

Sun Baked
Oct 23, 2007, 10:13 PM
But if someone is honest/stupid enough to post first impressions of the final build of Leopard in a public forum, it is of interest.

arn

I agree with stupid, but I guess it is not up to us to protect him if he wants to crawl out on the limb and saw off the branch behind himself either.

Especially with pictorial evidence posted on a site read by soo many Apple employees. :eek:

I guess all we can really say, is thanks Pete. And enjoy the story.

flopticalcube
Oct 23, 2007, 10:14 PM
However, I do believe that activation is something they should be doing right now. It just makes sense.

Oh, God no!

thejadedmonkey
Oct 23, 2007, 10:14 PM
Considering Apple is now a multi-billion dollar corporate empire, similar to Microsoft but with more black t-shirts, I don't think a few pirated copies of Leopard will affect them much. However, I do believe that activation is something they should be doing right now. It just makes sense.

I disagree. Product activation sums the MS experience up completely. As a user I am treated as a criminal and forced to prove my innocence. Apple actually trusts me. Apple trusts me, doesn't overcharge for their OS, and so even if I do end up torrenting it before Saturday (the earliest I could make it to an Apple store), I'd still pay for it.

Most MS folk can't say that.

Infinity
Oct 23, 2007, 10:17 PM
Considering Apple is now a multi-billion dollar corporate empire, similar to Microsoft but with more black t-shirts, I don't think a few pirated copies of Leopard will affect them much. However, I do believe that activation is something they should be doing right now. It just makes sense.

Are you insane!? I don't want my Mac experience to turn into something resembling a Windows platform ie. Jumping through hoops to get software you bought to work. Activation does nothing more than piss off legitimate owners of the software yet it merely only adds an extra step for people who really want to pirate it.

DeaconGraves
Oct 23, 2007, 10:18 PM
I disagree. Product activation sums the MS experience up completely. As a user I am treated as a criminal and forced to prove my innocence. Apple actually trusts me. Apple trusts me, doesn't overcharge for their OS, and so even if I do end up torrenting it before Saturday (the earliest I could make it to an Apple store), I'd still pay for it.

Most MS folk can't say that.

While a lot of people claim noble (or at least ethical) intentions to delete a pirated copy after they get the legal copy, it has to be assumed that most people won't. (If I recall, there were lots of students claiming that they would be pirating Leopard after the edu price went up).

We're not there yet, but there has to be a point where Apple says "enough" and either adds activation or ups the price.

benlee
Oct 23, 2007, 10:25 PM
I dont think the pirating is that bad for OS X. Apple charges a reasonable price for the OS. Activations just lead to cracks for people who really want an illegal copy anyways.

voyagerd
Oct 23, 2007, 10:31 PM
Leopard seems faster on my 12" PowerBook G4 1.5Ghz, especially the finder. I think games seem to run better too.

DrFrankTM
Oct 23, 2007, 10:33 PM
While a lot of people claim noble (or at least ethical) intentions to delete a pirated copy after they get the legal copy, it has to be assumed that most people won't. (If I recall, there were lots of students claiming that they would be pirating Leopard after the edu price went up).

We're not there yet, but there has to be a point where Apple says "enough" and either adds activation or ups the price.

Microsoft and Apple are in very different situations. Microsoft sells software. They do not sell the hardware Windows runs on. If piracy is widespread, then they lose a significant share of their revenues. Apple's situation is different. Even if they did not make any money on software, they could still stay in business provided that they sell enough hardware at a good enough profit margin. If you can pirate OS X easily, it means that your Macs can stay up-to-date (in terms of software) longer and more cheaply. That would probably boost hardware sales, which would compensate - to what extent, I am not sure - the loss of software sales.

I am not advocating piracy. I just don't think that it's as big a deal for Apple as it is for software-only companies. Personally, I hope they never require activation since I mess up my computers every now and then and like to re-install everything from scratch when I do. An activation code is just one more thing I can lose and the activation process, one more thing that can go wrong.

gmanrique
Oct 23, 2007, 10:35 PM
I don't understand people's reactions. This is big news, at least for us Mac OSX fans.

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/1C28 Safari/419.3)

First impressions of the final version of Leoard is newsworthy.

You think AppleInsider had a "legal" copy of leopard to do their leopard series?

I do not condone piracy and we will ban anyone trying to distribute or facilitate piracy here. But if someone is honest/stupid enough to post first impressions of the final build of Leopard in a public forum, it is of interest.

arn

philbeeney
Oct 23, 2007, 10:45 PM
RSS fees in Mail is indeed a cool feature.

Paying for RSS in Mail is not a cool feature. :p :D

synth3tik
Oct 23, 2007, 10:46 PM
It's interesting that in the Apple visual guide they said it would take "an hour or two" and it appears to take much less. I have a hard time believing that time frame and wonder why they over shot so badly.

PCMacUser
Oct 23, 2007, 10:46 PM
I disagree. Product activation sums the MS experience up completely. As a user I am treated as a criminal and forced to prove my innocence. Apple actually trusts me. Apple trusts me, doesn't overcharge for their OS, and so even if I do end up torrenting it before Saturday (the earliest I could make it to an Apple store), I'd still pay for it.

Most MS folk can't say that.

Activation is not confined to Microsoft. Apple's traditional darling, Adobe, has been using activation for years. Small time software companies use activation too. I recently purchased Neat Image, for digital noise reduction, and that required activation. Roxio Toast needs an active license key to enable its operation and software updates. EyeTV 2 needs activation. The list goes on, and on, and on.

So you can stop this whole 'Apple really loves me as a person and trusts me and don't really want my money, but my affection' squabble!

***THEY WANT YOUR CASH*** :p

latergator116
Oct 23, 2007, 10:46 PM
The guy is telling us about 10.5. Who cares how he got it? Let's not turn this into a piracy debate (might be too late).

PCMacUser
Oct 23, 2007, 10:48 PM
Are you insane!? I don't want my Mac experience to turn into something resembling a Windows platform ie. Jumping through hoops to get software you bought to work. Activation does nothing more than piss off legitimate owners of the software yet it merely only adds an extra step for people who really want to pirate it.

Activating Vista requires no user action. If you have an Internet connection, it does it itself, silently in the background.

mashinhead
Oct 23, 2007, 10:50 PM
Considering Apple is now a multi-billion dollar corporate empire, similar to Microsoft but with more black t-shirts, I don't think a few pirated copies of Leopard will affect them much.

I kinda have to agree wiht you. they aren't idiots though. while i know they don't want pirating they aren't naive to it. it's built into their econmic plans for sure. Though i have to say this is really an apple problem, no one but apple and the people they work with to produce and distribute leaked this because no one else had access. The moment you have to physically produce something you have way to many 'cooks in the kitchen' and the recipe will always get out. becaue it just needs one person to do it.

The answer is digital distribution (like what radiohead did). I know this is a very large file for something like that. so this won't happen for a long time. but that really is the future and the answer to all media problems today.

DeaconGraves
Oct 23, 2007, 10:50 PM
Microsoft and Apple are in very different situations. Microsoft sells software. They do not sell the hardware Windows runs on. If piracy is widespread, then they lose a significant share of their revenues. Apple's situation is different. Even if they did not make any money on software, they could still stay in business provided that they sell enough hardware at a good enough profit margin. If you can pirate OS X easily, it means that your Macs can stay up-to-date (in terms of software) longer and more cheaply. That would probably boost hardware sales, which would compensate - to what extent, I am not sure - the loss of software sales.

I am not advocating piracy. I just don't think that it's as big a deal for Apple as it is for software-only companies. Personally, I hope they never require activation since I mess up my computers every now and then and like to re-install everything from scratch when I do. An activation code is just one more thing I can lose and the activation process, one more thing that can go wrong.

I think you make a lot of valid points, but this is the same Apple that people were accusing of being all about the bottom dollar regarding locking the iPhone to AT&T and restricting 3rd party development. It just seems odd to me that people would feel in some cases that Apple doesn't care about piracy when they're being fairly proactive in other cases.

Obviously, whenever something is for free (legal or not) some people will do anything to save a buck while others have much more noble intentions (I think the new Radiohead album is a good example of this). It likely all balances out in the end, but I'm waiting until Friday. Someone else's impressions, especially when just written out, does me no good. I need to see it for myself.

HLdan
Oct 23, 2007, 10:52 PM
Leopard seems faster on my 12" PowerBook G4 1.5Ghz, especially the finder. I think games seem to run better too.

This is not to knock you but I just hate when people say it "Seems faster" or "Seems snappier". Sometimes I get the feeling that it's what we want it to be but it's not really. Are you truly getting faster performance or does it just "seem"?

PCMacUser
Oct 23, 2007, 10:53 PM
The answer is digital distribution (like what radiohead did). I know this is a very large file for something like that. so this won't happen for a long time. but that really is the future and the answer to all media problems today.

I totally agree with you. A great example is Steam. They've revolutionised digital distribution for games. In fact, the last 8 or so PC games I've bought recently have been via Steam. Each game is a few gigabytes in size, but with today's broadband speeds, this only takes me a few hours to download.

Good idea!

PCMacUser
Oct 23, 2007, 10:54 PM
This is not to knock you but I just hate when people say it "Seems faster" or "Seems snappier". Sometimes I get the feeling that it's what we want it to be but it's not really. Are you truly getting faster performance or does it just "seem"?

The 'seems snappier' thing is just an ongoing Mac Rumours joke... if you stick around a while you'll see it pop up every now and then. :)

eg, a new Apple mouse could be released, and someone will say 'my Safari seem snappier now'...

Eidorian
Oct 23, 2007, 10:55 PM
This is not to knock you but I just hate when people say it "Seems faster" or "Seems snappier". Sometimes I get the feeling that it's what we want it to be but it's not really. Are you truly getting faster performance or does it just "seem"?It's a meme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme).

You should look for elevator shots around Apple events. ;)

voyagerd
Oct 23, 2007, 10:56 PM
This is not to knock you but I just hate when people say it "Seems faster" or "Seems snappier". Sometimes I get the feeling that it's what we want it to be but it's not really. Are you truly getting faster performance or does it just "seem"?

I used those words because it's based on my impression. If I wanted concrete evidence. I'd have to first install a fresh copy of 10.4.10 and benchmark it and then a fresh copy of 10.5 and benchmark it. I wiped the hard drive before installing 10.5, so the snappiness could just be from a clean install. Performance in some games such as Call of Duty 2 do run faster, this is based on frame rate. I don't have an exact comparison on the fps on each OS.

mashinhead
Oct 23, 2007, 10:58 PM
I totally agree with you. A great example is Steam. They've revolutionised digital distribution for games. In fact, the last 8 or so PC games I've bought recently have been via Steam. Each game is a few gigabytes in size, but with today's broadband speeds, this only takes me a few hours to download.

Good idea!

this also is a HUGE environtmental benefit. The one great think about the digital revoulution is it can free a huge burdon on physical resources and reduce costs. The stupidest thing i've every seen is now instead of selling cd's starbucks sells those gift cards for every cd. Have you seen those? I took one look and all that ran through my head was how stupid are these people? i mean my god you can now dl the cd right there in the store and the STILL have to wast materials needlessly. Seriously how unaware do these people think consumers are?

JonC88
Oct 23, 2007, 10:59 PM
Activating Vista requires no user action. If you have an Internet connection, it does it itself, silently in the background.

Perhaps for the initial installation, but things might not be quite so smooth after that: http://apcmag.com/vista_activation

Ariez
Oct 23, 2007, 10:59 PM
The Main reason why Apple dont have activation is the OS is tied to the hardware. Sales of OSX is nothing to a hardware company.

MrMoore
Oct 23, 2007, 10:59 PM
• Safari is blazing fast!

Wow. Saying Safari is snappier finally pays off. ;)
:D

HLdan
Oct 23, 2007, 11:00 PM
Activation is not confined to Microsoft. Apple's traditional darling, Adobe, has been using activation for years. Small time software companies use activation too. I recently purchased Neat Image, for digital noise reduction, and that required activation. Roxio Toast needs an active license key to enable its operation and software updates. EyeTV 2 needs activation. The list goes on, and on, and on.

So you can stop this whole 'Apple really loves me as a person and trusts me and don't really want my money, but my affection' squabble!

***THEY WANT YOUR CASH*** :p

Actually you are not completely correct about all of that so-called activation. Adobe does indeed do exactly what Microsoft does but Roxio Toast and EyeTV 2 (which both I use) do not require activation.
Don't confuse serializing with activation, they are quite different. Reformatting the hard drive requires you to call Adobe and Microsoft to activate again or no go.
I don't have to do that with the other companies nor do I have to be connected to the internet for the serial to work unlike Adobe and Microsoft.

Foxglove9
Oct 23, 2007, 11:01 PM
It's interesting that in the Apple visual guide they said it would take "an hour or two" and it appears to take much less. I have a hard time believing that time frame and wonder why they over shot so badly.

It took me an hour to install Tiger on my old G4 iMac, so an hour or 2 on an old PPC machine sounds about right. And remember he just did an update not a clean install, that might change things.

I was wondering if Apple was going to include Activation in Leopard as one of those secret features we wouldn't know until the retail version arrived. I guess no activation and thank goodness for that. I'm sure someone already has it hacked to run on non-apple hardware (or pretty darn close).

psychofreak
Oct 23, 2007, 11:03 PM
I'm sure someone already has it hacked to run on non-apple hardware (or pretty darn close).

I think that will take a while...

shigzeo
Oct 23, 2007, 11:05 PM
I disagree. Product activation sums the MS experience up completely. As a user I am treated as a criminal and forced to prove my innocence. Apple actually trusts me. Apple trusts me, doesn't overcharge for their OS, and so even if I do end up torrenting it before Saturday (the earliest I could make it to an Apple store), I'd still pay for it.

Most MS folk can't say that.

i have had xp for about 6 or 5 years and it is the oem copy. i got it as it was at the time, less than half the price of the special priveleges one... professional? as oem, i had to buy a hd with it and got it for cad 155$, even then much more than osx. now, i use windows for one game and one calculation/formatting application only. because of this product activation, i will be forced to buy another copy of windows to use the counting application i use 5 minuts per day and the game i play once per month.

the licensing scheme and everything about the windows distribution is just nightmare for many consumers as if you buy the wrong one, you are really tied to one machine forever - naturally, i no longer use the 20gb hd that was in my machine in 2001, i am on a macbook pro. just simple rubbish the way the software i legally purchased is so limited that i am forced to upgrade just to use it for minutes a day or even less.

shigzeo
Oct 23, 2007, 11:10 PM
Activation is not confined to Microsoft. Apple's traditional darling, Adobe, has been using activation for years. Small time software companies use activation too. I recently purchased Neat Image, for digital noise reduction, and that required activation. Roxio Toast needs an active license key to enable its operation and software updates. EyeTV 2 needs activation. The list goes on, and on, and on.

So you can stop this whole 'Apple really loves me as a person and trusts me and don't really want my money, but my affection' squabble!

***THEY WANT YOUR CASH*** :p

at my work, after reinstalling windows onto another machine which we ditched and then trying to get xp 64 to run even at all, i talked with adobe technical support. the guy helped me through every step and did not give me any critical eye about it going to a new machine.

i have spoken numerous times with microsoft and the first thing they as is if i have pirated my xp. adobe and microsoft have completely different activation procedures. i much prefer adobes method.

BWhaler
Oct 23, 2007, 11:27 PM
Activating Vista requires no user action. If you have an Internet connection, it does it itself, silently in the background.

And this is a good thing?

Did you miss the news about Microsoft forcing Windows updates a month ago. Users had no choice. No one knew it happened or was going to happen. They got caught.

You think this is acceptable behavior for a company to do with your computer?

Microsoft Apologists are a weird bunch.

rstansby
Oct 23, 2007, 11:30 PM
Paying for RSS in Mail is not a cool feature. :p :D

Yeah, first they charge us for ringtones, and now this:)

Cappy
Oct 23, 2007, 11:40 PM
I don't understand the excitement or desire for RSS to be thrown in with email. I guess I'll have to check it out when I try Leopard.

Count me in as one concerned with performance on a G4 PB. I'm running a 12" PB 1.33Mhz with the memory maxed out to 1.25GB. I'm not as much concerned about the cpu as I am how limited I am on memory. I tend to customize my environment with lots of shareware/freeware and with Leopard's greater req specs than Tiger worries me a bit. Unfortunately I don't have a rich uncle or anything to get me a new PB in the near future. :(

stoutboy1
Oct 23, 2007, 11:52 PM
Why all the negative ratings? Is it because most believe this is a pirated copy, or a not the gold master, or are not happy with what was reported, or what I want to know. I used to really like the ratings but now I think they are worthless. They should just force you to post to share your feelings. If there was a thread that stated :apple: was giving everyone a free computer and $1million dollars, 10 people would mark negative. I just don't get it, people should expand. I might be missing something I read the first couple pages of replies with no avail.

lord patton
Oct 23, 2007, 11:54 PM
Count me in as one concerned with performance on a G4 PB. I'm running a 12" PB 1.33Mhz with the memory maxed out to 1.25GB. I'm not as much concerned about the cpu as I am how limited I am on memory.

It's a shame they didn't up the soldered memory to 512 for their last two revs, but oh well.

I think the 12" PBs will rock with Leopard. I have no way of knowing, of course, but I think they'll kick some ass. I'll tell you what... I'd rather have a PB with 64 MB VRAM and 1.25 GB RAM than a iBook with 32 MB VRAM and 1.5 GB RAM.

We'll find out real, real soon!

irahodges
Oct 23, 2007, 11:57 PM
Why all the negative ratings? Is it because most believe this is a pirated copy, or a not the gold master, or are not happy with what was reported, or what I want to know. I used to really like the ratings but now I think they are worthless. They should just force you to post to share your feelings. If there was a thread that stated :apple: was giving everyone a free computer and $1million dollars, 10 people would mark negative. I just don't get it, people should expand. I might be missing something I read the first couple pages of replies with no avail.

maybe some voted negative because its late and they want to go to bed, but because of this news they are compelled to stay up and post endless discussion on a product that will be out in 2 days! :p:D

i dont think the ratings ever work for me...i don't see it change after i click?

daddymac76
Oct 24, 2007, 12:08 AM
Really pathetic that Appple does not release it to there developer and enterprise customers even a little more then two day's before the release. At this rate I will have to go a buy a final copy for enterprise integration on Friday or wait until a week after the commercial release to recieve a copy of server adn client. Apple wake up and realize that even though you could have Enterprise penetration this is exactly why you do not. It is going to leak anyway so why not release it to those that have been testing and probably wouldn't leak it, unlike the way you give the gm to all the users in your company and have them install it themselves. O.K rant done sorry....

BTW
Oct 24, 2007, 12:08 AM
Considering Apple is now a multi-billion dollar corporate empire, similar to Microsoft but with more black t-shirts, I don't think a few pirated copies of Leopard will affect them much. However, I do believe that activation is something they should be doing right now. It just makes sense.


Even Microsoft has softened on activation. Apple does not need to go there.

AJ Muni
Oct 24, 2007, 12:10 AM
for some reason it seem a lot slower than tiger on my 2gb, 2.0ghz mbp. Even to restart it seems real slow. spotlight is indexing, and it says about 50 min remaining so that may be it.

irahodges
Oct 24, 2007, 12:15 AM
for some reason it seem a lot slower than tiger on my 2gb, 2.0ghz mbp. Even to restart it seems real slow. spotlight is indexing, and it says about 50 min remaining so that may be it.

that is certainly what it is....when spotlight indexed on tiger, it slowed everything down tremendously

jackc
Oct 24, 2007, 12:21 AM
Why all the negative ratings? Is it because most believe this is a pirated copy, or a not the gold master, or are not happy with what was reported, or what I want to know. I used to really like the ratings but now I think they are worthless. They should just force you to post to share your feelings. If there was a thread that stated :apple: was giving everyone a free computer and $1million dollars, 10 people would mark negative. I just don't get it, people should expand. I might be missing something I read the first couple pages of replies with no avail.

The rating system is pretty meaningless, why worry about it? If the headline interests you, read more.

irahodges
Oct 24, 2007, 12:25 AM
The rating system is pretty meaningless, why worry about it? If the headline interests you, read more.

i dont know if you know this, but you are the star of a hit show "House" :p

dukebound85
Oct 24, 2007, 12:40 AM
Says he's got a family pack license. At this point, I imagine that there are multitudes of boxed copies making their way to Apple stores (and distribution centers for on-line orders), perhaps sitting there already ready for the Friday store release or Thursday shipping for Apple's promised over-night parcel delivery on the 26th. Just thinking about the odds - all those copies in all of those stores / distribution warehouses - it's certainly conceivable that it's a legal copy that just escaped into the wild a little early.

except in the other thread someone found a post of his saying he downloaded it before he got his copy

AJ Muni
Oct 24, 2007, 12:41 AM
that is certainly what it is....when spotlight indexed on tiger, it slowed everything down tremendously

Ohh ok, I was hoping. Because for a while, things seemed snappier, then slowed down again. Indexing is almost done. I must say leopard is pretty bad ass. for me its the little things that count. for example in a folder full of movies, the icons are now little pictures of the movie, not just the original quicktime logo. also when u click on the airport in the menu bar, it has a little lock to those networks who require passwords, so you can tell right off the bat secure, or non secure networks. and even though i never really use cover flow in itunes, i'm already using it with the finder. it's so much better now to preview things without opening the app. And spotlight is wayyyyyyyyyyy faster than it was before. thats really impressed me so far.

p.s. anyone who's installed leopard want to try screen sharing? I'm on ichat now, AIM = AJ Muni

Edit: Indexing is done, and wow this thing is flying.

Edit 2: yes its true, safari does seem much faster.

exigentsky
Oct 24, 2007, 12:42 AM
Clearly this is a review based on an illegal copy downloaded from the internet. Should this really be encouraged by posting it as news?

stoutboy1
Oct 24, 2007, 12:45 AM
The rating system is pretty meaningless, why worry about it? If the headline interests you, read more.

Not really worried about it, I just think its really funny and I was a little curious as to why someone gave it a negative. Does someone really have a negative feeling about the post or are you upset because you have a G3? Ha ha that would suck.
Any news is good news on my mac...

Side Note: I did missed House tonight , I wish it was on itunes.

messedkid
Oct 24, 2007, 01:00 AM
I'd just like to add that I am SUPER STOKED for friday..when my copy arrives. :D

About the guy who got his hands on a copy early:

"IF" he was even telling truth about pre-ordering a family pack, then I don't see a big problem with im downloading a leaked copy ahead of time. The real person who is at fault..are the seeders/people who uploaded the OS to him, because chances are...they did NOT buy a license or if they did, they should not be handing out free copies! Lay off the german guy. All he's done is give us info we were dying for anyway.


But if he was lying about the preordered family pack...then he shall burn in hell for all eternity.

JPyre
Oct 24, 2007, 01:02 AM
Not mine, I'm still waiting, but here's a shot:

Notice Darwin is 9.0.0, previous builds have been 9.0.0b*

http://image.bayimg.com/mahfeaabl.jpg

JorgeAHdz
Oct 24, 2007, 01:19 AM
Gmail goes IMAP: finally your mobile email client & Gmail fall in love

Posted Oct 24th 2007 1:36AM by Ryan Block
Filed under: Messaging, Software
It's absolutely no secret that Google has a few humble fans of their email service, whose prayers have finally been answered. G's giving its users free -- yes, free -- IMAP access to their inboxes; great for desktop users, sure, but the people most likely to benefit from this development are those on mobile email clients (especially those unable to use the Java Gmail app). Hell, Google knows it and even whipped up an iPhone setup page to help Apple users get the real Gmail experience (instead of that crap out of box implementation someone so wrongly thought we'd be satisfied with). How do you get IMAP enabled? Well, if you don't see it in your Gmail options, log out and back in again. Still don't see it? Wait. Wait, and check the blogs, friend.

[Via DownloadSquad, thanks to everyone who sent this in]

http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/10/24/gmail-goes-imap-finally-your-mobile-email-client-and-gmail-fall-i/

PCMacUser
Oct 24, 2007, 01:22 AM
Perhaps for the initial installation, but things might not be quite so smooth after that: http://apcmag.com/vista_activation

That reviewer is an employee of Apple - he must be - look at what he's wearing!

PCMacUser
Oct 24, 2007, 01:30 AM
And this is a good thing?

Did you miss the news about Microsoft forcing Windows updates a month ago. Users had no choice. No one knew it happened or was going to happen. They got caught.

You think this is acceptable behavior for a company to do with your computer?

Microsoft Apologists are a weird bunch.

Don't mistake my postings for Microsoft Apologetics. I hold a neutral viewpoint, hence my nickname. I try to bring balance to biased discussions. That's all.

But as for the Windows updates, most home users 'out there' have their computers set to automatically download and install Windows updates anyway. Corporate environments aren't bothered by this, as most of them disable this functionality and block access to the update site via their proxy servers. If you want better security on either your PC running Windows, or your Mac running OSX, switch off your modem now.

In the 'old days', ie, 10 years ago, all I was worried about as a computer technician was forgetting to scan a floppy disk for viruses before putting it in my computer. Ahh, such innocence...

addicted44
Oct 24, 2007, 01:35 AM
I think you make a lot of valid points, but this is the same Apple that people were accusing of being all about the bottom dollar regarding locking the iPhone to AT&T and restricting 3rd party development. It just seems odd to me that people would feel in some cases that Apple doesn't care about piracy when they're being fairly proactive in other cases.

Apple makes a ton of money from their hardware. They definitely have the best margins (since they dont sell loss leaders, like Dell, not because they are overpriced. Also, their product portfolio is simple, reducing unnecessary expenses). Since Mac OS X can only be run on Apple manufactured macs, the fact that you pirate Mac OS X, does not hurt apple as much, because they know you have paid them some money. Most people do not pirate, and Apple should not inconvenience the majority by adding activation (what would happen to "It just Works?") when the minority who do pirate would find a way around activation anyways (as has happened with every version of Windows).

Also, the lack of a 3rd party dev environment for the iphone was more a case of apple being cautious entering a brand new industry (and a complicated one at that) than them being greedy. I think originally they partnered with AT&T because that was the only way they could get them to agree to stuff like Visual VoiceMail and activation over iTunes. Also, I think this makes troubleshooting FAR easier for them, and keeps the consumer confidence and quality of the iPhone experience high. The profit margins dont hurt either, though.

Merlyn3D
Oct 24, 2007, 01:39 AM
If this is the released version, then why is the dev build number in the about box instead of 10.5.0 like on all other OS X versions?

Sbrocket
Oct 24, 2007, 01:39 AM
Why all the negative ratings? Is it because most believe this is a pirated copy, or a not the gold master, or are not happy with what was reported, or what I want to know. I used to really like the ratings but now I think they are worthless. They should just force you to post to share your feelings. If there was a thread that stated :apple: was giving everyone a free computer and $1million dollars, 10 people would mark negative. I just don't get it, people should expand. I might be missing something I read the first couple pages of replies with no avail.

I rated it negative for the simple fact that it seems MacRumors is supporting information gained possibly through piracy, and I don't like that fact. Its our prerogatives to vote how we like - that's why its there.

If this is the released version, then why is the dev build number in the about box instead of 10.5.0 like on all other OS X versions?

If you click that text, it switches between different bits of information. You can try it in Tiger, it does the same.

JPyre
Oct 24, 2007, 01:43 AM
If this is the released version, then why is the dev build number in the about box instead of 10.5.0 like on all other OS X versions?

It is what it it is, all you have to do is click on "10.*" below and it'll switch between build number and serial on any OSX version.

Also, at the login window, you can click "10.*" below MacOS and cycle though to get the ip address.

deepakhj
Oct 24, 2007, 01:52 AM
My friend, who works for a very large multimedia software company, got his legit copy of Leopard today and just installed it on his Macbook Pro. So *SOME* people are receiving copies already..

offwidafairies
Oct 24, 2007, 02:02 AM
LOL, you beat me to it.

just what i was thiniking :p

princigalli
Oct 24, 2007, 02:08 AM
I just hope it will be at least almost as fast as Windows is. The other day I played with a Windows machine and was amazed. Any application started in Vista was operative immediately. Also, every time I clicked, the system responded immediately. With Mac OSX I am so used to wait a few seconds every time I do anything, I can get distracted between two clicks! With the processors that we have, Apple as no excuse to continue making such slow interfaces. So this is my main hope for Leopard. If not I will start running some applications in VMWare.

thasan
Oct 24, 2007, 02:09 AM
Exactly but no....guilty until proven innocent eh



Shoulda just let the poor guy alone and let him share the info he had. Honestly some people are so annoying...:rolleyes:

yes, im a newbie here and i am not supporting piracy. i dont even have a mac. hope to buy one in nov. but i really felt quite disgusted how people jumped on him...people shouldnt even treat a thief in that way...:o

Markleshark
Oct 24, 2007, 02:10 AM
yes, im a newbie here and i am not supporting piracy. i dont even have a mac. hope to buy one in nov. but i really felt quite disgusted how people jumped on him...people shouldnt even treat a thief in that way...:o

No, your right. Thieves should have their hands chopped off. :)

I must admit though, I was hoping for more Screenshots... :(

Darkroom
Oct 24, 2007, 02:39 AM
i can confirm that the 9A581 build has been indeed posted on the torrent sites (one in particular)...

how did this get out? :confused:

nja247
Oct 24, 2007, 02:57 AM
Why is it that the GM build is available on popular torrent sites, but not the developer connection? oh well...

Marx55
Oct 24, 2007, 03:01 AM
What about ZFS? Read only? Read/write? Is it possible to format-initialize an internal/external drive as ZFS, install Leopard on it and boot from it? Does Time Machine work BETTER with ZFS-formatted disks? Thanks.

LaDirection
Oct 24, 2007, 03:11 AM
Jessica, I agree with you. This post will just encourage illegal file sharing. Which I think has two problems...

1. Lost of revenue for Apple. I don't want to lose Apple because of that and I don't want Apple to have to start with "Activation" to protect their product. They trust us, we should repay that trust by buying the product.

2. It just gives ammunition to the Music and Movie industries. I can hear the "I told you iPod owners steal music; that's why we need DRM" already.
:(

Bull ********** sh**. Apple makes it's money on hardware. Why do you think Final Cut Pro is number 1 everywhere? Because Apple was bright enough not to use a dongle and so for the past 5 years students have been downloading Final Cut and learning on it. Now that a new generation is up, what software will they use? And better yet, what hardware will they buy or convince their boss to buy?

Darkroom
Oct 24, 2007, 03:26 AM
Bull ********** sh**. Apple makes it's money on hardware. Why do you think Final Cut Pro is number 1 everywhere? Because Apple was bright enough not to use a dongle and so for the past 5 years students have been downloading Final Cut and learning on it. Now that a new generation is up, what software will they use? And better yet, what hardware will they buy or convince their boss to buy?

and the new Logic Studio is finally dongle free aswell...

and i agree with the "Bull ********** sh**" remark... an online post doesn't encourage people to do anything they don't want to do... people aren't bugs living on instincts... and they'll make up their own damn mind, regardless of what they READ...

dogtanian
Oct 24, 2007, 04:10 AM
Awful language around here....

Lord Zedd
Oct 24, 2007, 04:20 AM
Does Apple have any way of tracking pirated copies of Leopard (like how Windows makes you register as specific ID number for each copy)?

Not directly through the installation, BUT they can and do track BitTorrent downloads.

From: abuse-noreply@comcast net
Subject: Notice of Claim of Copyright Infringement.
Date: July 7, 2007 5:06:13 AM MDT
To: XXXXXX-XXXX@comcast net

Notice of Action under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act

Abuse Incident Number: NA0000003687149
Report Date/Time: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 10:25:57 -0700


LANCE XXXXXXX
XXXX W XXTH AVE APT XXXX
FEDERAL HEIGHTS, CO 802604735


Dear Comcast High-Speed Internet Subscriber:

Comcast has received a notification by a copyright owner, or its authorized agent, reporting an alleged infringement of one or more copyrighted works made on or over Comcast's High-Speed Internet service (the 'Service'). The copyright owner has identified the Internet Protocol ('IP') address associated with your Service account at the time as the source of the infringing works. The works identified by the copyright owner in its notification are listed below. Comcast reminds you that use of the Service (or any part of the Service) in any manner that constitutes an infringement of any copyrighted work is a violation of Comcast's Acceptable Use Policy and may result in the suspension or termination of your Service account.

If you have any questions regarding this notice, you may direct them to Comcast in writing by sending a letter or e-mail to:

Comcast Legal Response Center
Comcast Cable Communications, LLC
650 Centerton Road
Moorestown, NJ 08057 U.S.A.
Phone: (856) 317-7272
Fax: (856) 317-7319
E-mail: dmca@comcast net

For more information regarding Comcast's copyright infringement policy, procedures, and contact information, please read our Acceptable Use Policy by clicking on the Terms of Service link at www comcast.net

Sincerely,
Comcast Legal Response Center

Copyright work(s) identified in the notification of claimed infringement:

Evidentiary Information:

Notice ID: 1753759
Asset: Apple MAC OS Leopard
Protocol: BitTorrent
IP Address: 24.8.XXX.46
DNS: c-24-8-186-46.hsd1.co.comcast net
File Name: Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard 9A466,dmg
File Size: 6513439612
Timestamp: 30 Jun 2007 05:02:52 GMT
Last Seen Date: 30 Jun 2007 05:02:52 GMT
URL: http://tpb tracker.thepiratebay,org:80/announce
Username (if available):

cecemf
Oct 24, 2007, 04:29 AM
Jessica, I agree with you. This post will just encourage illegal file sharing. Which I think has two problems...

1. Lost of revenue for Apple. I don't want to lose Apple because of that and I don't want Apple to have to start with "Activation" to protect their product. They trust us, we should repay that trust by buying the product.

2. It just gives ammunition to the Music and Movie industries. I can hear the "I told you iPod owners steal music; that's why we need DRM" already.
:(

I agree with you at 100%

We don't to become like windows users !!! at least Apple respect us and respect is mutual !

THX1139
Oct 24, 2007, 04:35 AM
Speed improvements in Mail.app?


I'm sold now. Definitely upgrading for this!!

Yeah, me too! The fastest I can type is around 30 wpm. I hope with the new Mail I can get up to 90 wpm. And since Safari is faster, I suppose we can browse the web faster? Can't wait!!

JW Pepper
Oct 24, 2007, 04:44 AM
Are there any finder performance improvements for G4 or G5 machines?

PCMacUser
Oct 24, 2007, 04:45 AM
people aren't bugs living on instincts... and they'll make up their own damn mind, regardless of what they READ...

Ahh, how I wish this were true...

ascender
Oct 24, 2007, 04:48 AM
Without de-railing this thread further, I genuinely believe that because its Apple and also the price of Leopard compared to Windows equivalents will mean that I'm more inclined to believe people when they say they are downloading it but have also pre-ordered it. Maybe I'm being naive, maybe not.

weckart
Oct 24, 2007, 04:49 AM
When I found out from this forum that a genuine copy of Leopard had leaked onto the intarweb I googled around for the purported source. It would seem to be traced back to a specific torrent tracker which specialises in pre-release software, I do not know the name of the tracker and don't much care. However, the info posted suggested that the orignal uploader had access to a shipped batch of retail Leopard disks, which retailers had received over the weekend and were holding onto until Friday. From there, the torrent had made its way to various torrent sites and a newsgroup. There's your source.

However, given that the name of this forum is MacRUMORS and the contributors by inference derive the bulk of their information from non-sanctioned or "unofficial" sources, the sheer volume of squealing on this thread boggles the mind. Just where do these beknighted individuals think that all of the info they happily read about on a daily basis comes from? "Legal", Cupertino-approved press-releases? Yes, that would be informative.:rolleyes:

Lord Zedd
Oct 24, 2007, 04:50 AM
Are there any finder performance improvements for G4 or G5 machines?

Leopard was significantly slower than Tiger on the MacMini 1.5G4 I used to have.

gnasher729
Oct 24, 2007, 04:50 AM
Copies of Mac OS X Leopard not sanctioned by Apple may reflect illegal distribution of copyrighted material and cannot be condoned. Any requests for or provision of illegal software distributions in our forums will result in post deletion and account banning.

That is interesting. At the same time, there is a thread running asking how to install Leopard from a .DMG file. So did you miss that thread, or is it ok to ask how to install pirated software after pirating it?

antdgar
Oct 24, 2007, 04:56 AM
Just installed leopard. Yes, it is very fast imo...

Bokito
Oct 24, 2007, 04:57 AM
• I told Mail to import my RSS Feeds from Safari but that didn't work!

If you want to prevent this issue from happening open Safari first and let SyndicationAgent run at least once. I have the idea there are some things upgraded in the latest RSS reader that may cause migration problems. If you let Safari/SyndicationAgent run first before importing in Mail you may not see this issue. I'm not really sure about it, but it's certainly something you should try if you also want to import RSS feeds into mail.

wesleyh
Oct 24, 2007, 04:59 AM
Leopard was significantly slower than Tiger on the MacMini 1.5G4 I used to have.


WHAT!!?

weckart
Oct 24, 2007, 05:06 AM
I agree with you at 100%

We don't to become like windows users !!! at least Apple respect us and respect is mutual !

And I disagree with you 100%. Until Microsoft starts selling the hardware, which you are required to have to run their software, the same business model does not apply. However, Apple has lifted one tactic from Microsoft, and that is dropping support for the older models. Not because this would be too costly to support, but because by increasing the hardware requirement minimums (why should Apple need to do this if Leopard is better, faster and lighter than Tiger?) Apple guarantees that than any losses due to downloading are more than matched by others obliged to buy new hardware just to run the latest updated iTunes etc.

JW Pepper
Oct 24, 2007, 05:06 AM
Is that true, I have a few iMac G4 1ghz and a G5 2.5DP which I could upgrade, some are still using Panther. I don't want to do this if they are likely to slow down because of the grater overheads of 10.5.

samh004
Oct 24, 2007, 05:12 AM
Why is it that the GM build is available on popular torrent sites, but not the developer connection? oh well...

An Apple-controlled release to boost sales and hype on their new OS just ahead of the launch.

What about ZFS? Read only? Read/write? Is it possible to format-initialize an internal/external drive as ZFS, install Leopard on it and boot from it? Does Time Machine work BETTER with ZFS-formatted disks? Thanks.

Well the developers did get that last minute functionality last week, so perhaps it has been included. I'd guess it hasn't though.

Is that true, I have a few iMac G4 1ghz and a G5 2.5DP which I could upgrade, some are still using Panther. I don't want to do this if they are likely to slow down because of the grater overheads of 10.5.

RAM.

Wild-Bill
Oct 24, 2007, 05:12 AM
Leopard was significantly slower than Tiger on the MacMini 1.5G4 I used to have.

Yikes......

I'm wondering if its even worth it to upgrade my 1.5GHz Powerbook G4 12". I would be mighty disappointed if it became slower due to Leopard.

I guess I'll hold out until I see some feedback from people installing on their Powerbooks......:(

AdeFowler
Oct 24, 2007, 05:29 AM
Yikes......

I'm wondering if its even worth it to upgrade my 1.5GHz Powerbook G4 12". I would be mighty disappointed if it became slower due to Leopard.

I guess I'll hold out until I see some feedback from people installing on their Powerbooks......:(
I'll be installing on my 1.5GHz Powerbook G4 15" on Friday (hopefully), and I'll certainly be posting some feedback.

PCMacUser
Oct 24, 2007, 05:35 AM
However, given that the name of this forum is MacRUMORS and the contributors by inference derive the bulk of their information from non-sanctioned or "unofficial" sources, the sheer volume of squealing on this thread boggles the mind. Just where do these beknighted individuals think that all of the info they happily read about on a daily basis comes from? "Legal", Cupertino-approved press-releases? Yes, that would be informative.:rolleyes:

Um, I think you're confusing rumours with illegal piracy...?!

PCMacUser
Oct 24, 2007, 05:38 AM
I'll be installing on my 1.5GHz Powerbook G4 15" on Friday (hopefully), and I'll certainly be posting some feedback.

I look forward to hearing how you get on. I'm not sure how well it'll work on my iBook :o

Dagless
Oct 24, 2007, 05:43 AM
I can't wait for this OS to be released.

twoodcc
Oct 24, 2007, 05:48 AM
well i must say i'm a little disappointed to see this guy on the front page. i thought these forums were against people like that

titof
Oct 24, 2007, 05:48 AM
anyone got experiences with a hacked 1.0.2 iphone and sync in leopard?

joseph2166
Oct 24, 2007, 05:56 AM
Apple has lifted one tactic from Microsoft, and that is dropping support for the older models. Not because this would be too costly to support, but because by increasing the hardware requirement minimums (why should Apple need to do this if Leopard is better, faster and lighter than Tiger?) Apple guarantees that than any losses due to downloading are more than matched by others obliged to buy new hardware just to run the latest updated iTunes etc.

Oh honestly I've had enough of people complaining about lack of support - What are you missing out on - and when did apple promise support for years to come? When SHOULD they stop supporting your old computer - when you get a new one I suppose.

Can you still use an old computer? YES! You could even use OS 7 and it would still work fine - nobody forces anyone to upgrade their hardware. As for the threat of having to run iTunes 6 - not like its a BAD bit of software to start with!

dogtanian
Oct 24, 2007, 06:02 AM
Um, I think you're confusing rumours with illegal piracy...?!

I agree with wekart on this particular subject actually. Many rumours do not come from legitimate sources. Why everyones on their high-horse I do not know...:rolleyes:

I do disagree about wekart's comments regarding supporting old hardware however, a very small price for progress. Apple wants people to upgrade old machines as well.

Would people stop shouting their opinion though. Some peoples posts come across as positively angry!

Hattig
Oct 24, 2007, 06:04 AM
"Tasks in Mail appear even if completed. That might be a bit distracting for some people"

No, no, this is good, it lets you get a sense of achievement by seeing the things you have completed which leaves you motivated to do the rest.

Other software disappears completed tasks, just leaving you with a list of tasks you haven't yet done, you complete failure, why don't you just give up now, eh?

Diatribe
Oct 24, 2007, 06:10 AM
well i must say i'm a little disappointed to see this guy on the front page. i thought these forums were against people like that

I didn't think I'd ever say that but I have to agree. After all the "we're against copying, etc." and now this? There is only one word that comes to mind and that is hypocrisy.

FJ218700
Oct 24, 2007, 06:11 AM
Leopard was significantly slower than Tiger on the MacMini 1.5G4 I used to have.

which build?

system speed has likely become increasingly optimized with each build.

WildPalms
Oct 24, 2007, 06:14 AM
....and photobooth pictures of a fat, hairy man wearing a wife-beater doesnt help my food go down. He has obviously pirated his copy as it is no released yet, and I do not know why it was posted on the front page. ....Arn?

twoodcc
Oct 24, 2007, 06:16 AM
I didn't think I'd ever say that but I have to agree. After all the "we're against copying, etc." and now this? There is only one word that comes to mind and that is hypocrisy.

yeah i know. i'm not saying that i hate/dislike this guy or whatever, i'm just saying macrumors isn't being consistant here

Darkroom
Oct 24, 2007, 06:18 AM
Um, I think you're confusing rumours with illegal piracy...?!

on a more subjective plain, macrumors.com having posted leaked information about upcoming apple products, which received attention from Apple Legal, is in principle quite similar to illegal software piracy of apple applications...

while simple rumors may be less "serious" than downloading/installing mac os x for free, the balance quickly becomes more equal as "innocent rumors" = public and "guilty piracy" = private.

WildPalms
Oct 24, 2007, 06:19 AM
on a more subjective plain, macrumors.com having posted leaked information about upcoming apple products, which received attention from Apple Legal, is in principle quite similar to illegal software piracy of apple applications...

while simple rumors may be less "serious" than downloading/installing mac os x for free, the balance quickly becomes more equal as "innocent rumors" = public and "guilty piracy" = private.

Good point.

Diatribe
Oct 24, 2007, 06:22 AM
yeah i know. i'm not saying that i hate/dislike this guy or whatever, i'm just saying macrumors isn't being consistant here

Yeah, I too sometimes have a different opinion on copying, etc. than MR but if you're saying certain things at least be consistent and act accordingly.

Example:

Link (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=4351550&postcount=20)


Serials, warez, etc... and facilitation of illegal ("against the law") matters are a separate issue and one we don't condone.

arn

Blue Velvet
Oct 24, 2007, 06:29 AM
Let's take a second to review the forum rules (http://guides.macrumors.com/Help:Forum_Rules):


Warez/Serials/Keys. Do not post software serial numbers or keys or refer people to specific websites or software whose purpose is to break or bypass software licensing methods, distribute cracks, or obtain or use commercial software or media in violation of its license and/or for copyright violation. Do not ask for or give such help.


This thread and the one linked to, do not do any of these things... the poster was not telling people where to get it or overtly helping others, and while personally, I am not pleased to see that thread happen, I try to put my feelings to one side when looking at the situation from the board's rules and stance on these matters.

And I don't equate posting or releasing info about a product that MR has not signed an NDA for, as equivalent to 'in principle quite similar to illegal software piracy of apple applications'.

Evangelion
Oct 24, 2007, 06:36 AM
I really fail to see the argument about morality of posting info about Leopard before it's release. Is it wrong to pirate software? Yes it is. Is Macrumors advocating piracy? No they are not.

Hell, we have had numerous cases where people have posted screenshots of Leopard developer-builds. And that means that they violated their NDA. Did anyone complain? Hell no! Did anyone complain when those same people made comments about Leopard? Hell no! So why are people complaining now, when someone posts comments about an OS that will be on sale in few days? Why was it OK to break the NDA and provide info about Leopard, whereas it's NOT ok to report on comments someone made about the final Leopard? I MIGHT understand that argument if it was Macrumors itself that pirated Leopard and then commented on it, but they did not. Someone else did, and they just reported on their comments.

machou
Oct 24, 2007, 06:40 AM
Well, what if he pre-ordered Leopard and still downloaded the final build ?

I wouldn't consider that piracy..after all he paid for it, he is just getting it quicker. I know would too.

After all, why is apple not allowing users to download Leopard from their site for the same price (or less) ?

I mean it's a win/win situation, users who want it now could pay and download it and for those who want the box they could still
order it.

dogtanian
Oct 24, 2007, 06:42 AM
I really fail to see the argument about morality of posting info about Leopard before it's release. Is it wrong to pirate software? Yes it is. Is Macrumors advocating piracy? No they are not.

Hell, we have had numerous cases where people have posted screenshots of Leopard developer-builds. And that means that they violated their NDA. Did anyone complain? Hell no! Did anyone complain when those same people made comments about Leopard? Hell no! So why are people complaining now, when someone posts comments about an OS that will be on sale in few days? Why was it OK to break the NDA and provide info about Leopard, whereas it's NOT ok to report on comments someone made about the final Leopard? I MIGHT understand that argument if it was Macrumors itself that pirated Leopard and then commented on it, but they did not. Someone else did, and they just reported on their comments.

Too right. I agree. Lets not let this discussion turn into a thread on the rights and wrongs of it, especially as its what much of a rumour site is based on.

Diatribe
Oct 24, 2007, 06:42 AM
I call that facilitating if you put someone on the front page that has pirated software. It shows that it is more or less ok and it'll get you onto the front page.
I am not against the thread in general but I think you're using some lose arguments here.

gmanrique
Oct 24, 2007, 06:49 AM
This is just way out of hand. Most people are just impatient because they have to wait 2 more days. Has this come out a month earlier without saying it was from the Gold Master, everybody will be: How is this? and how is that? even if it were not an official copy.

Macrumors is not, in any way, promoting piracy by putting this information here for all of us to see. I actually find quite disrepecful all this comments questioning Arn. :mad:

....and photobooth pictures of a fat, hairy man wearing a wife-beater doesnt help my food go down. He has obviously pirated his copy as it is no released yet, and I do not know why it was posted on the front page. ....Arn?

Blue Velvet
Oct 24, 2007, 06:50 AM
I call that facilitating if you put someone on the front page that has pirated software.

Facilitating means making something easier, to assist, to bring something about... something which MR has not done.

twoodcc
Oct 24, 2007, 06:51 AM
This thread and the one linked to, do not do any of these things... the poster was not telling people where to get it or overtly helping others, and while personally, I am not pleased to see that thread happen, I try to put my feelings to one side when looking at the situation from the board's rules and stance on these matters.

And I don't equate posting or releasing info about a product that MR has not signed an NDA for, as equivalent to 'in principle quite similar to illegal software piracy of apple applications'.

i see what you're saying. but macrumors still isn't being consistant, in my eyes anyways.

the theme here i thought was "clean" forums, and i would say that this thread isn't so clean

Much Ado
Oct 24, 2007, 06:52 AM
Macrumors is not, in any way, promoting piracy by putting this information here for all of us to see. I actually find quite disrepecful all this comments questioning Arn. :mad:

As if we really needed to have this inside information days before Leopard came out.
What have we learnt? That mail is fast?

Cons > Pros

EDIT: But I agree with BV. This thread is unfortunate, but legitimate. I would still ditch it though, as we shouldn't cling to the forum rules like a constitution without an element of common sense.

Evangelion
Oct 24, 2007, 06:53 AM
I call that facilitating if you put someone on the front page that has pirated software. It shows that it is more or less ok and it'll get you onto the front page.
I am not against the thread in general but I think you're using some lose arguments here.

And if you write any kind of articles about Leopard developer-builds, you are basically saying that "You do not have to honor the agreements you make with others", right?

Why didn't you complain when someone violated their NDA and posted comments about Leopard developer-builds? Why do I get the feeling that what you did was not to complain, but to head over to ThinkSecret and looked at those Leopard-screenshots that were posted there in direct violation of the NDA? Am I right, or am I right? And the message those articles told everyone is that "hey, by breaking your NDA you can make it to the front-page of our website!"...

janstett
Oct 24, 2007, 06:54 AM
Jessica, I agree with you. This post will just encourage illegal file sharing. Which I think has two problems...

1. Lost of revenue for Apple. I don't want to lose Apple because of that and I don't want Apple to have to start with "Activation" to protect their product. They trust us, we should repay that trust by buying the product.

2. It just gives ammunition to the Music and Movie industries. I can hear the "I told you iPod owners steal music; that's why we need DRM" already.
:(

It has the opposite effect for me.

I bought two copies of Vista Ultimate (I'm a software professional). I hate Microsoft's activation ******** with a passion. I have had XP machines get de-activated. I hate the fact that I had to give Microsoft money for this ********. Let alone that Ultimate isn't so ultimate, is it? I feel cheated. If I have to install any more Vista, I know of a workaround Microsoft is tolerating thanks to our communist Chinese pirate friends.

Since Apple doesn't pull this nonsense (yet), I have no problems giving them money for a family pack on my Macs and it's still cheaper than one upgrade copy of Vista. They deserve their money and they aren't *******s (about the OS).

Downloading a torrent for a sneak peek is a grey area I can tolerate if it's just for preview and the user is buying a real copy -- reminds me of the OSX86 excitement of running OSX on a normal Intel PC (that's how I got drawn in) now I have an Intel Macbook Pro and an Intel Mac Pro. If Leopard was farther away I'd probably download it -- but as it is, it's two days away and I don't have that much time on my hands, I'll just wait for the UPS guy to show up on Friday.

twoodcc
Oct 24, 2007, 06:55 AM
And if you write any kind of articles about Leopard developer-builds, you are basically saying that "You do not have to honor the agreements you make with others", right?

Why didn't you complain when someone violated their NDA and posted comments about Leopard developer-builds? Why do I get the feeling that what you did was not to complain, but to head over to ThinkSecret and looked at those Leopard-screenshots that were posted there in direct violation of the NDA? Am I right, or am I right? And the message those articles told everyone is that "hey, by breaking your NDA you can make it to the front-page of our website!"...

what are you trying to say?

gmanrique
Oct 24, 2007, 06:56 AM
Some people are just jealous because they have never made it to the front page. (just half-kidding)

It the info was published by this, or any rumors site for that matter, as received from one of their 'sources' then everybody will be happy.

I call that facilitating if you put someone on the front page that has pirated software. It shows that it is more or less ok and it'll get you onto the front page.
I am not against the thread in general but I think you're using some lose arguments here.

Blue Velvet
Oct 24, 2007, 06:56 AM
the theme here i thought was "clean" forums, and i would say that this thread isn't so clean


We don't moderate to a theme, and on the whole, Arn is very careful to pay heed to the precise legal standings of this issue... and also pays attention to grey areas when they're discussed, which is why discussion of hacking iPhones, for instance, is permitted, because it's not illegal.

Committing a crime is illegal; talking about someone committing a crime and the details of their crime is not.

davidlt
Oct 24, 2007, 06:57 AM
Seeders: 106
Leechers: 3438

WoW... People really want Leopard as I can see... :) Leechers number is increasing by hundreds per few minutes.

twoodcc
Oct 24, 2007, 06:59 AM
We don't moderate to a theme, and on the whole, Arn is very careful to pay heed to the precise legal standings of this issue... and also pays attention to grey areas when they're discussed, which is why discussion of hacking iPhones for instance, is permitted, because it's not illegal.

Commiting a crime is illegal; talking about someone commiting a crime and the details of their crime is not.

everyone has a reputation. so yes you do.

sure, this isn't a crime. but that doesn't mean it's right either.

and i'm not saying it's wrong. i just think if you're going to be against piracy, then be against it. posting this doesn't help your argument against it

edesignuk
Oct 24, 2007, 07:00 AM
Oh for god sake, will the moral police please give it a rest.

You don't approve, good for you. Go and take a long ride on your high horse and come back at 6pm on the 26th.

Maybe then you'll let those who are interested in the product actually read about it without your non-stop moaning.

FFS :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Much Ado
Oct 24, 2007, 07:02 AM
Oh for god sake, will the moral police please give it a rest.

You don't approve, good for you. Go and take a long ride on your high horse and come back at 6pm on the 26th.

Maybe then you'll let those who are interested in the product actually read about it without your non-stop moaning..

FFS :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

FWIW, i'm not one of the moral police. However, i do believe in tact and timing. Given Leopard is out in 2 days, why was this put on the front page when it was bound to cause an uproar?

twoodcc
Oct 24, 2007, 07:02 AM
Oh for god sake, will the moral police please give it a rest.

You don't approve, good for you. Go and take a long ride on your high horse and come back at 6pm on the 26th.

Maybe then you'll let those who are interested in the product actually read about it without your non-stop moaning.

FFS :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

well, last night the "moral police" did their job by running this guy off :)

i'm not saying i don't agree with this, i want to read about it. i'm talking about the fact that it's on the front page of these forums. i might expect to see it on the front of other forums, but i didn't think i'd see it on this one

Evangelion
Oct 24, 2007, 07:06 AM
what are you trying to say?

I'm saying that it's hypocritical for people to whine when someone posts comments about Leopard by using a pirated copy of the OS, while those very same people readily accepted comments made by people who violated their NDA's by posting comments and screenshots of Leopard developer-builds. Why is former verboten while latter is perfectly OK?

And what are these comments about, basically? That MacRumors is advocating piracy. No, they are not. They are reporting what the final build of Leopard is like. It's the same they have been doing with those various developer-builds as well, and no-one complained back then, quite the opposite in fact. They are not telling anyone to pirate Leopard, they are not providing others with information on how to pirate Leopard. They are simply reporting what the final build is like, no more, no less.

majorp
Oct 24, 2007, 07:06 AM
i wonder how many people reading this are actually downloading it now?

OllyW
Oct 24, 2007, 07:06 AM
Committing a crime is illegal; talking about someone committing a crime and the details of their crime is not.

Unless it is sub judice ;)

Blue Velvet
Oct 24, 2007, 07:07 AM
and i'm not saying it's wrong. i just think if you're going to be against piracy, then be against it. posting this doesn't help your argument against it


Knowing where you stand legally and acting upon it, is not the same as being against something. I'm personally against pirating, but I don't moderate here according to my principles, I moderate to the board's policies based on its owners' understanding of the law.

I'm just as interested as hearing first impressions about Leopard as anyone else so am quite happy to read about it, it's not like I'm encouraging or helping anyone to go and pirate it. I will buy my copy of Leopard.

What I want to know is: does it feel better suited to Intel machines than Tiger? How does it run on PPC machines?

Unless it is sub judice ;)

Heh, which this is not. Unless the court of public opinion is suddenly running the place.

davidlt
Oct 24, 2007, 07:07 AM
Screenshot of Retail version which has been leaked into the internet:
http://bayimg.com/gAHGBaAbl

As you can see it's Retail versions, look at "About this Mac" window and dock on the right side.

weckart
Oct 24, 2007, 07:09 AM
Um, I think you're confusing rumours with illegal piracy...?!

I am confusing nothing. Perhaps you could try to understand the point I am making which is one of hyprocrisy. There is nothing, repeat, nothing innocent about rumours. If it does not appear on a company-approved press release, then it is leaked. End of.

Oh honestly I've had enough of people complaining about lack of support - ......snipped broken record quote

I equally have had enough of people who do not take the time to read posts and understand the point being made. Who is complaining? I merely observed a business strategy Apple has adopted to maintain its bottom line. Consider this: Either Leopard is faster than Tiger, in which case there is no need to exclude only some G4 processor based setups which run happily under Tiger, or it is a bloated pig of an upgrade a la Vista, in which case you have little reason to upgrade, whatever hardware you have. I have no problems with dropping G3s or even G4s, G5s and Core Duos, when the time comes, but the starting line at at G4 867GHz for Leopard looks surprisingly arbitrary.

Bear also in mind that Microsoft drops support for software only. Its operating systems can be installed on antique rubbish, even if you would not realistically want to.

edesignuk
Oct 24, 2007, 07:10 AM
well, last night the "moral police" did their job by running this guy off :)

i'm not saying i don't agree with this, i want to read about it. i'm talking about the fact that it's on the front page of these forums. i might expect to see it on the front of other forums, but i didn't think i'd see it on this one

FWIW, i'm not one of the moral police. However, i do believe in tact and timing. Given Leopard is out in 2 days, why was this put on the front page when it was bound to cause an uproar?
You know, I can't even be bothered to get in to this with anyone any further - arguments for and against - just had to say my piece after trying to read through this thread.

It's out in a few days and there's a few screen shots floating around now. It would be nice to discuss what we know from these sneak peaks without reading through pages and pages of little apple fan boys and goody-to-shoes harping on and on.

twoodcc
Oct 24, 2007, 07:10 AM
I'm saying that it's hypocritical for people to whine when someone posts comments about Leopard by using a pirated copy of the OS, while those very same people readily accepted comments made by people who violated their NDA's by posting comments and screenshots of Leopard developer-builds. Why is former verboten while latter is perfectly OK?

And what are these comments about, basically? That MacRumors is advocating piracy. No, they are not. They are reporting what the final build of Leopard is like. It's the same they have been doing with those various developer-builds as well, and no-one complained back then, quite the opposite in fact. They are not telling anyone to pirate Leopard, they are not providing others with information on how to pirate Leopard. They are simply reporting what the final build is like, no more, no less.

well not all of the people that have something to say fall under that category, including myself. but that's not the point anyways.

that's your opinion. i don't think they are necessarily promoting piracy. but since it's clear that is what this guy did, and he "made the front page", people aren't gonna like that. not around here

it's not that i don't like it. i just didn't think macrumors would do this

xUKHCx
Oct 24, 2007, 07:10 AM
Screenshot of Retail version which has been leaked into the internet:
http://bayimg.com/gAHGBaAbl

As you can see it's Retail versions, look at "About this Mac" window and dock on the right side.

The dock actually looks pretty good one the side, huge improvements over the 3D dock. The blue dots stand out really well.

ggbrown
Oct 24, 2007, 07:11 AM
What version of Ruby is shipped with Leopard?

In terminal, issue the command:

ruby -v

Thanks,

twoodcc
Oct 24, 2007, 07:11 AM
You know, I can't even be bothered to get in to this with anyone any further - arguments for and against - just had to say my piece after trying to read through this thread.

It's out in a few days and there's a few screen shots floating around now. It would be nice to discuss what we know from these sneak peaks without reading through pages and pages of little apple fan boys and goody-to-shoes harping on and on.

i will agree with you there. but why put this here on the front page?

actually i just like to argue :o

viltsu
Oct 24, 2007, 07:13 AM
In the name of Steve, why the hell are we discussing about warez in this forum??? :( :( :(

Much Ado
Oct 24, 2007, 07:13 AM
It would be nice to discuss what we know from these sneak peaks without reading through pages and pages of little apple fan boys and goody-to-shoes harping on and on.

I post twice and i'm singled out as a fanboi and the like? Please do not sulk, sir.

/Signing out of thread, where relevant comments are no longer welcome

Veri
Oct 24, 2007, 07:14 AM
I rated it negative for the simple fact that it seems MacRumors is supporting information gained possibly through piracy, and I don't like that fact.
A site like this gets its biggest scoop when someone has done something shady. Of course it can't condone how it gets its info - whether that's by an Apple employee breaking an NDA, or someone with access to a pile of DVDs in mid-shipment creating a DMG and uploading - but it's these leaks that the site relies on to earn its pageviews.

If Apple don't like it, it's up to them to C&D or whatever. If you as an Apple shareholder don't like it, you can speak to Apple about policy change. However (not directed at you, but at arguments in general I've been reading here):

Activation has nothing to do with stopping unauthorised copies and everything to do with removing a sense of control from the consumer. I have a paid-for retail copy of XP which I have installed and bypassed activation and WGA on, for example, because I object to the notion of a remote off-switch. Driver update can cause Vista deactivation (http://slashdot.org/articles/07/10/23/1255235.shtml) - you think that's about preventing piracy? Please do not propose activation; it will reduce legitimate customers and create a minor, fixable inconvenience for pirates.
Copyright is covered by The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (http://copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/uk_law_summary) in the UK, and Title 17 of the United States Code (http://www.copyright.gov/title17/) in the USA. Breaking copyright, where a facsimile is made but the original is left intact, is thus not the same as regular ol' theft - in the UK, per Theft Act 1968, "A person is guilty of theft, if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it." Even then, the Act expands on each term - consider this judgment (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldjudgmt/jd001026/hinks-3.htm) beginning at "The Theft Act 1968 was passed in an attempt to simplify" (irony!) for a taster of complexity. Nor is breaking copyright the same as breaking EULAs, the legality of which may not even have been tested in your jurisdiction (extra terms revealed after exchange of consideration). For legal advice, consult a lawyer. For moral advice, consult a parent, preacher or politician :D.

edesignuk
Oct 24, 2007, 07:15 AM
I post twice and i'm singled out an a fanboi and the like? Please do not sulk, sir.

/Signing out of thread, where relevant comments are no longer welcomeI quoted you in order to reply to you to say that I'm not going to argue the case any further. Please do not sulk, sir. :rolleyes:

/ toddles off to torrent sites :eek: :rolleyes:

OllyW
Oct 24, 2007, 07:16 AM
Heh, which this is not. Unless the court of public opinion is suddenly running the place.

I didn't say it was (there was a smiley next to it)

Calm down dear :D

http://www.cherwell.org/files/winner.jpg

twoodcc
Oct 24, 2007, 07:18 AM
Knowing where you stand legally and acting upon it, is not the same as being against something. I'm personally against pirating, but I don't moderate here according to my principles, I moderate to the board's policies based on its owners' understanding of the law.

I'm just as interested as hearing first impressions about Leopard as anyone else so am quite happy to read about it, it's not like I'm encouraging or helping anyone to go and pirate it. I will buy my copy of Leopard.


you can say that, but in reality, "promoting piracy", which in a sense, is what this is, is working against your "laws" around here.

just b/c posting this thread "slips" by your "laws", does't mean it won't have a negative influence.

you say your not encouraging, but actually you are, just indirectly. you can deny that if you want, but that's just avoiding the facts. just look at the publicity this has gotten already. i gurantee more people are downloading it now

weckart
Oct 24, 2007, 07:22 AM
Mods! Someone has posted a picture of M*****l W****r.:eek:

Surely, that is against all possibly known rules, anywhere. And illegal. Or should be.

Please remove, Thnx.

edesignuk
Oct 24, 2007, 07:22 AM
i gurantee more people are downloading it nowOh please. what nonsense.

The people that were always going to pirate it will be doing so.

The vast amount of Apple minions that were always going to buy it will still be doing so.

Apple will still be laughing their big heads off all the way to the bank at the end of this quarter and for the foreseeable future.

Blue Velvet
Oct 24, 2007, 07:23 AM
you can say that, but in reality, "promoting piracy", which in a sense, is what this is, is working against your "laws" around here.


We're not talking about "laws" of the board, we're talking about the law. The one that gets you into trouble.

Anyway, enough of this. Arn and the people that run this site know exactly what they're doing.

mrwizardno2
Oct 24, 2007, 07:23 AM
you can say that, but in reality, "promoting piracy", which in a sense, is what this is, is working against your "laws" around here.

just b/c posting this thread "slips" by your "laws", does't mean it won't have a negative influence.

you say your not encouraging, but actually you are, just indirectly. you can deny that if you want, but that's just avoiding the facts. just look at the publicity this has gotten already. i gurantee more people are downloading it now

Actually, the information in this thread and others is what convinced me to buy it on amazon w/ their $20 off, plus a gift card I had laying around. I don't see how discussing a piece of software that has yet to come out is going to cause anyone to illegally download it if they didn't have that intention in the first place. If they were going to do it, they were going to do it.

Spanky Deluxe
Oct 24, 2007, 07:31 AM
It feels a bit like MacRumors is supporting pirating by giving this guy prime front page space. Its not a Rumour since its all stuff we already knew from the developer releases. Disappointed.

twoodcc
Oct 24, 2007, 07:32 AM
Oh please. what nonsense.

The people that were always going to pirate it will be doing so.

The vast amount of Apple minions that were always going to buy it will still be doing so.

Apple will still be laughing their big heads off all the way to the bank at the end of this quarter and for the foreseeable future.

that's always everyone's excuse. like a father telling his son to not smoke, but while he smokes. and when his son ends up smoking, he blames that he got it from the kids at school.

We're not talking about "laws" of the board, we're talking about the law. The one that gets you into trouble.

Anyway, enough of this. Arn and the people that run this site know exactly what they're doing.

even worse. but this board does have it's own rules, which is my whole point of this argument.

so you're giving up, huh? ;)

Actually, the information in this thread and others is what convinced me to buy it on amazon w/ their $20 off, plus a gift card I had laying around. I don't see how discussing a piece of software that has yet to come out is going to cause anyone to illegally download it if they didn't have that intention in the first place. If they were going to do it, they were going to do it.

but we're discussing someone's opinion of the software, after he illegally got it. there are other forums for this type of discussion, but, before today, used to not be this one

edesignuk
Oct 24, 2007, 07:37 AM
Macrumors is obviously extremely morally corrupt then. Macrumors shouldn't post any screen shots until release day and wave good bye to all the traffic, interest, and buzz it generates.

****ing hell.

http://up.edesignuk.com/files/1/Images/Gifs/SlapFace.gif

milo
Oct 24, 2007, 07:38 AM
Me too, but as I'll only have the uptodate disk to work with, its gonna take a while unfortunately.

What makes you think the uptodate disk is anything but the exact same disk everyone else gets? Much less an upgrade disk that requires having 10.4 installed?

Blue Velvet
Oct 24, 2007, 07:39 AM
even worse. but this board does have it's own rules, which is my whole point of this argument.

so you're giving up, huh? ;)


And as moderators we know exactly what those rules are, which is more than some people around here seem to understand and which don't cover situations like this. And no I'm not giving up, I'm just witholding some of the powers available to me. ;)

milo
Oct 24, 2007, 07:43 AM
i've honestly never understood torrents. dont they take days to dl?

If it was reported to have first leaked yesterday or the day before...and this was posted yesterday...you do the math. I think the fact that people are running it three days before release is a pretty good explanation why people do it.

Honestly, I find it pretty funny that people are complaining about this story because it came from someone with a leaked copy. Where do you think ALL the stories about Leopard and other prerelease software have come from? It's either bootleg copies or people with legit copies breaking their NDA. If you really want to take the moral high ground, don't read rumor sites at all - this complaining comes off as hypocritical.

twoodcc
Oct 24, 2007, 07:47 AM
Honestly, I find it pretty funny that people are complaining about this story because it came from someone with a leaked copy. Where do you think ALL the stories about Leopard and other prerelease software have come from? It's either bootleg copies or people with legit copies breaking their NDA. If you really want to take the moral high ground, don't read rumor sites at all - this complaining comes off as hypocritical.

you do have a point here. and no, you werent the first to say it.

i'm just arguing the fact that macrumors is so "anti-piracy"

edesignuk
Oct 24, 2007, 07:50 AM
i'm just arguing the fact that macrumors is so "anti-piracy"So then what are you arguing about!?!?!?!

You accept that every single bit of news on pre-release operating systems past and present has come from someone breaking the rules, yet you continue to visit a rumour site that reports on this sort of thing only to complain about it. Inspired.

Diatribe
Oct 24, 2007, 07:51 AM
Facilitating means making something easier, to assist, to bring something about... something which MR has not done.

According to my understanding it is making it easier for people because it'll take away any moral concerns they might have had.
Maybe not easier in a technical way but easier in an ethical way definitely.

well, last night the "moral police" did their job by running this guy off :)

i'm not saying i don't agree with this, i want to read about it. i'm talking about the fact that it's on the front page of these forums. i might expect to see it on the front of other forums, but i didn't think i'd see it on this one

Exactly. It is not so much the thread, it is the fact that it is on the front page that is kind of bothering me.

Spanky Deluxe
Oct 24, 2007, 07:53 AM
I think the problem here isn't that the story got published, its that the user who wrote on the forums was talking about pirated software and in the past anyone who mentions having acquired software illegally is banned or wastelanded on here.
The fact that the guy claims to have bought a license is a moot point. He may have pre-ordered a copy but will have downloaded Leopard illegally. People that buy Tiger but then go and download and install a hacked version of it on their PCs are breaking the law too. I'm not saying these are the most morally wrong things, the problem is that the forums generally run a no tolerance rule for any pirated software.
If the user had posted on somewhere like the InsanelyMac forums and had been linked as a front page article then there wouldn't be a problem.

Diatribe
Oct 24, 2007, 08:01 AM
Macrumors is obviously extremely morally corrupt then. Macrumors shouldn't post any screen shots until release day and wave good bye to all the traffic, interest, and buzz it generates.

****ing hell.

http://up.edesignuk.com/files/1/Images/Gifs/SlapFace.gif

Sarcasm... very mature way of having a discussion. :rolleyes:

I am sorry that you would like to get back talking about the torrent but I think this needs to be discussed and if not here, at least do something helpful and split it into a separate thread in forum feedback. ;)

izzle22
Oct 24, 2007, 08:03 AM
The dock actually looks pretty good one the side, huge improvements over the 3D dock. The blue dots stand out really well.

Sorry. I guess I'm one of the only ones who likes the 3D dock better at the bottom as well as on the side. It's just a nice change and change is almost always good in the end.;) Don't be scared of the new dock you will get used to it.

kaiwai
Oct 24, 2007, 08:06 AM
While I am just as excited (ok not as much) as the next person, is it really wise/right/sane to make this news when someone openly said he downloaded an illegal copy of the software but feels validated in doing so since he pre-ordred a family pack? Just curious but clearly it's ok or it wouldn't be here.

Leopard appears cool and it is great that the person who downloaded it finds mail to be blazing fast. RSS fees in Mail is indeed a cool feature. Not a must have but it will become a great to have in no time at all.

1) Having had a look at the guys Photoboth Photos, I think he has been punished enough with the looks he has. Reminds me of a dirty old fish 'n chip shop owner with hairy shoulders/back.

2) People do anything to justify their actions when breaking the law - for me, I'm going to wait, not only for moral reaosns but because I want to have the 'excitement' of actually receiving the genuine thing, installing it. They say that if you wait for something you desire, it'll feel all the better once received.

3) Regarding 'teh snappy' - apparently there have been big changes threading wise - so hopefully Arstechnica will do a good indepth analyse of it at a later date.

Diatribe
Oct 24, 2007, 08:13 AM
Just to reiterate, I don't think the thread itself is that much of a problem, although that could be argued, it is more that the thread was put on the front page. Especially since the original poster has talked about pirating it and usually those threads are wastelanded immediately not put on the front page.
I am not necessarily talking morals here more about consistency and I just think MR should be consistent either way.

crackermac
Oct 24, 2007, 08:21 AM
I can get Ubuntu (~700 MB) in about 20-30 minutes via torrents from home.

Right on! I just DLed it last night.

DeaconGraves
Oct 24, 2007, 08:23 AM
Just to reiterate, I don't think the thread itself is that much of a problem, although that could be argued, it is more that the thread was put on the front page. Especially since the original poster has talked about pirating it and usually those threads are wastelanded immediately not put on the front page.
I am not necessarily talking morals here more about consistency and I just think MR should be consistent either way.

That's how I feel too. Yes, yes, we know MR doesn't support piracy and that's great. But when you put a random user's exploits in pirating on the front page you're indirectly supporting it, as people who want to get the scoop the next time will possibly pirate.

It also alerts people to the availability of a leaked copy. Sure, if they wanted one they would probably already be searching for it, but why do we have to let everyone know.

Also, the review given by the person is honestly not that helpful. No new secret features that might be there or anything that hasn't been told before. Its just subjective comments. If he wants to go on the forums and talk about it, its his perogative, but since when is this news?

Lastly, a forum suggestion. When the system decides a news thread has gone way off topic (like in a situation like this) enough to create a feeback thread, please update the front page and tell people its there. It'll make it seem less like you are trying to cover something up (plus it'll probably make the Mods' jobs easier by not having people continuing to post in the main thread.

amac4me
Oct 24, 2007, 08:24 AM
Looking forward to upgrading this weekend.

Orng
Oct 24, 2007, 08:25 AM
Safari does seem snappier.

If someone were to let me in on the origins of the "Safari seems snappier" joke, I'd promise to never, ever say it myself, at least on this forum. :)

[edit] never mind, I read further in and found out myself. Now I don't have to promise not to say it.

bella92108
Oct 24, 2007, 08:26 AM
My ten cents....

I belong to a couple forums online, MacRumors being one, BlackberryForums being another. What I will tell you is I believe forums are about freely exchanging ideas, comments, and even criticism.

There are forums that are heavily moderated, like BlackberryForums.com where the moderators are so heavy-fisted that they run the show as dictators, banning people for speaking out against another member, disagreeing with their opinions, etc.

It's the opposite here, seems anything goes, but which would you rather see? Personally I like to be uncensored. I know most people here are also from the US, and for some reason many people in the US enjoy the feeling of being watched over, and having news delivered as the deliverer wants it to be seen, but c'mon.

At the end of the day, it's not about the ethics or beliefs or anything having to do with MacRumors. There is no way MacRumors is encouraging illegal activity to take place any more than the news reporting a murder causes someone to go out and kill someone.

MacRumors is being a responsible moderator in this situation and I commend them for the position they've taken. Good news or bad news, people have Leopard legit or not.

People who are arguing against it, either deal with it or move to another country where you don't have the freedom of speech and press that you do here, or just close your browser. I'd much rather get truth and accurate information and be responsible for my own actions.

You can either shelter your kid and he'll grow up to be a freak, or you can teach them to be responsible for themselves. Ignorance of temptation never solved anything. Kinda sounds like a democrat vs republican debate, lol.

Regards

Blue Velvet
Oct 24, 2007, 08:27 AM
The original thread was wastelanded, a decision taken overnight.

The placing of the story on the front page is an editorial and site owner's decision, the moderating of the ensuing discussion falls to the moderators, some of whom are in different time zones than the people that made decisions earlier in the day.

I understand the calls for consistency, but the consistency is particularly aimed at and is important to the legal standing of MR, not the overall moral philosopy of the argument for pirating. An argument I also don't have much truck with, but I put those personal feelings aside to moderate the board in line with its clear policies.

This is not being Big Brother or Big Sister, it's being clear about what is permitted, where it is permitted and what is not permitted on MR.

freeny
Oct 24, 2007, 08:29 AM
i've honestly never understood torrents. dont they take days to dl?

Depends on your internet speed as well as how many peers/seeders there are.
Some things as big as 2gigs can be dl'd in a matter of an hour or so in the right conditions.

I would NEVER dl a pirated OS. Its the core of your system and there is too much at stake for things to not work properly.

sananda
Oct 24, 2007, 08:32 AM
The original thread was wastelanded, a decision taken overnight.

The placing of the story on the front page is an editorial and site owner's decision, the moderating of the ensuing discussion falls to the moderators, some of whom are in different time zones than the people that made decisions earlier in the day.

I understand the calls for consistency, but the consistency is particularly aimed at and is important to the legal standing of MR, not the overall moral philosopy of the argument for pirating. An argument I also don't have much truck with, but I put those personal feelings aside to moderate the board in line with its clear policies.

This is not being Big Brother or Big Sister, it's being clear about what is permitted, where it is permitted and what is not permitted on MR.

what's going on? you just told us to discuss this in forum feedback. you said this was absolutely clear. now you're discussing here. i'm confused.

dogtanian
Oct 24, 2007, 08:34 AM
I suppose in the UK at least, this is a form of 'Theft by Consumption'! He may have had the intent to pay for it but 'consumed' the product before the transaction was complete. Much like eating a sandwich whilst walking round a supermarket whilst shopping.

To be honest, this has gotten out of hand. I agree with the Michael Winner picture. Anyone would think the sky was falling on our heads to quote Asterix & Obelix...

Orng
Oct 24, 2007, 08:42 AM
It's interesting that in the Apple visual guide they said it would take "an hour or two" and it appears to take much less. I have a hard time believing that time frame and wonder why they over shot so badly.

under-promise and over-deliver (http://www.google.ca/search?q=under+promise+over+deliver&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)
You can deliver the pizza in 20 minutes, so tell the customer it will be 40 minutes. Then if it takes you 30 minutes, they'll be happier than if you'd said 20. In other words, lower their expectations.

I've noticed Apple takes that approach to certain things sometimes. My wife's Shuffle stays charged for WAY longer than promised, and mine certainly has more than 240 songs on it. And everything I've ever ordered from Apple has come expedited, and I've never requested it.

arn
Oct 24, 2007, 08:43 AM
(I've remerged the site feedback thread into this one)

Here's the official response from the site owner. Site policy about the talk of piracy has been very consistent over the years.

Here's a post I made in 2005 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=1666785&postcount=5)

Our "warez/piracy" talk has always been relatively clear.

You can discuss piracy, pirated software, and you can even admit you pirate software if you are so inclined to do (at your own peril). These things are topics of discussion and your own personal feelings and experiences about it. I certainly won't try to police individual behavior.

So these comments/discussions are fine:

"I got x86 on the PC working... here's how well it works"
"I pirate all my software. I don't think it should be illegal"

However, we can't let the forums be a place for people to actively participate in piracy. You can't ask where to download XYZ or ask for a Serial Number for an application, etc...

These comments are NOT fine:

"I downloaded Photoshop CS and need a serial number"
"Where can I download Mac OS X for Intel?"
"Check out this bittorrent site where you can download XYZ"

It should be pretty obvious.


Someone posting their experiences with the Retail version of Leopard onto a public forum is newsworthy. People care about it, and that's why it is on the front page. Even that Retail Leopard has been leaked by itself is newsworthy and there will certainly be stories about it in the mainstream media later today.

I've posted this before, but a close parallel is AppleInsider's Leopard series. That information was obtained through a pirated version of Mac OS X Leopard Developer Seed. Almost certainly. It's unlikely that AppleInsider signed the NDA required to legally obtain Mac OS X Leopard.

Now, I understand that it may leave a bad taste in some people's mouths that the original source of this may likely have obtained a copy illegally. But this individual chose to do so and posted the information in a public forum. At that moment, the information contained was "out there" and of interest.

MacRumors did not ask that individual or any other individual to pirate Leopard to obtain any information.

I'm comfortable with this distinction, and still consider the information newsworthy.

arn

zorinlynx
Oct 24, 2007, 08:45 AM
I am so tired of people whining "piracy this" and "piracy that" and how evil someone is for getting a copy of leopard before the release date.

Are you all jealous that someone gets to play with the shiny new toy before you?

Seriously, I'm pretty sure anyone who's pirated the GM or previous release already has a pre-order in. So technically they've paid for what they're using; they just got it a bit early.

I 'borrowed' a seed DVD from a developer friend of mine and played with one of the betas. Am I a horrible pirate because of this? Did I deny Apple any income? HELL NO. I'm going to pay for Leopard just like everyone else and support Apple's great platform.

Just because a few of us might cheat a little to get a look at things early does not make us horrible monsters. We are not depriving Apple of anything. If anything, we're spreading news about the awesomeness of Leopard and building up even more excitement, which I'm sure Apple doesn't mind.

Get over yourselves. Sure there are people who will pirate and not pay, but I doubt that includes anyone here. I bet 99% of folks here running releases "early" already have their pre-orders in.

CaptainHaddock
Oct 24, 2007, 08:46 AM
A useful article and thread on an early Leopard feature and performance report degenerates into useless name-calling and "moral" policing. Oh my gosh, who the hell cares?

Now I remember why I hardly come here any more. Certain riders of high horses ruin it for the rest of us. Why can't they start their own thread? I helpfully suggest "OMG Haxorz piratz ruined my breakfast!!11" as a subject line.

JobsRules
Oct 24, 2007, 08:48 AM
If someone were to let me in on the origins of the "Safari seems snappier" joke, I'd promise to never, ever say it myself, at least on this forum. :)

[edit] never mind, I read further in and found out myself. Now I don't have to promise not to say it.

There's no one origin but back in the days when Mac OS X's performance was pretty poor, weighed down by modest G4s and Quartz-everything, the first thing everyone wanted to know about the tiniest updates was if the system was faster.

Of course, many updates cause the system to be optimised, even if there's no actual performance boost from the upgrade. Hence, people would report that the 'Finder seems snappier' due to this optimisation or perhaps due simply to the placebo effect.

When Mac OS X's performance increased it was the fact that Mac browsers weren't actually quite as fast as PC ones that became the big issue. Safari therefore replaced the Finder for forum injokes.

iBlue
Oct 24, 2007, 08:50 AM
...

Here's the official response from the site owner. Site policy about the talk of piracy has been very consistent over the years.

Here's a post I made in 2005 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=1666785&postcount=5)

Our "warez/piracy" talk has always been relatively clear.

You can discuss piracy, pirated software, and you can even admit you pirate software if you are so inclined to do (at your own peril). These things are topics of discussion and your own personal feelings and experiences about it. I certainly won't try to police individual behavior.

So these comments/discussions are fine:

"I got x86 on the PC working... here's how well it works"
"I pirate all my software. I don't think it should be illegal"

However, we can't let the forums be a place for people to actively participate in piracy. You can't ask where to download XYZ or ask for a Serial Number for an application, etc...

These comments are NOT fine:

"I downloaded Photoshop CS and need a serial number"
"Where can I download Mac OS X for Intel?"
"Check out this bittorrent site where you can download XYZ"

It should be pretty obvious.

Someone posting their experiences with the Retail version of Leopard onto a public forum is newsworthy. People care about it, and that's why it is on the front page. Even that Retail Leopard has been leaked by itself is newsworthy and there will certainly be stories about it in the mainstream media later today.

I've posted this before, but a close parallel is AppleInsider's Leopard series. That information was obtained through a pirated version of Mac OS X Leopard Developer Seed. Almost certainly. It's unlikely that AppleInsider signed the NDA required to legally obtain Mac OS X Leopard.

Now, I understand that it may leave a bad taste in some people's mouths that the original source of this may likely have obtained a copy illegally. But this individual chose to do so and posted the information in a public forum. At that moment, the information contained was "out there" and of interest.

MacRumors did not ask that individual or any other individual to pirate Leopard to obtain any information.

I'm comfortable with this distinction, and still consider the information newsworthy.

arn

I'm just quoting this for the sake of it being seen (for those of us with 40 posts per page and who almost missed it) ;)

bold emphasis mine.

Dagless
Oct 24, 2007, 08:52 AM
So this is 6gb?

On my paltry connection that would take a week to download, limited of course so the internet is still useable. (whilst also letting my own apps and games to still be uploaded)

I couldn't even download it before my pre-ordered version arrives :o

edesignuk
Oct 24, 2007, 08:57 AM
So this is 6gb?Worse, 6.55GB :p

BillyBobBongo
Oct 24, 2007, 08:59 AM
A useful article and thread on an early Leopard feature and performance report degenerates into useless name-calling and "moral" policing. Oh my gosh, who the hell cares?

Now I remember why I hardly come here any more. Certain riders of high horses ruin it for the rest of us. Why can't they start their own thread? I helpfully suggest "OMG Haxorz piratz ruined my breakfast!!11" as a subject line.

You're my new hero!!! :D

I was really looking forward to getting some sneak previews of the OS and getting the opinion of someone else on the benefits/pitfalls of Leopard. I'm sure that all those calling names and fighting for their moral ideas are very proud of themselves for their policing of this thread.....just a shame that the guy who started this all off is no doubt long gone! :(

tennez
Oct 24, 2007, 09:02 AM
Does someone knows when is leopard coming to the shelves in colleges and universities?

Kwill
Oct 24, 2007, 09:04 AM
Leopard has not yet reached its first point update. We have 10 going on 11 for Tiger. Overall, there appears to be more good than bad.

Good : Faster Finder with simplified LAN computer access, Cover Flow, Quick Look, Time Machine, iChat screen sharing, Automator recording, auto font activation, simplified printing dialog, Alex, and Mail enhancements. (RIP twirling lollypop.)

Bad : Translucent menu bar, the Dock.

Ugly : The Dock.

Evangelion
Oct 24, 2007, 09:06 AM
that's your opinion. i don't think they are necessarily promoting piracy. but since it's clear that is what this guy did, and he "made the front page", people aren't gonna like that. not around here

Can you speak for every person here when you say "people are not going to like it"?

Kwill
Oct 24, 2007, 09:08 AM
Does someone knows when is leopard coming to the shelves in colleges and universities?

It will be a graduation present. :D

DeaconGraves
Oct 24, 2007, 09:08 AM
I've posted this before, but a close parallel is AppleInsider's Leopard series. That information was obtained through a pirated version of Mac OS X Leopard Developer Seed. Almost certainly. It's unlikely that AppleInsider signed the NDA required to legally obtain Mac OS X Leopard.


I guess the one distinction I'd make between AppleInsider's series and this post was that AppleInsider didn't really comment at all about where they were getting their info/screenshots from. As far as I'm aware they just went straight into discussing history/features.

Does it make it better? Probably not. Does it justify their posting and not MacRumors'? Absolutely not. But I think that MR's bringing attention to the fact that it was "illegally obtained' information and restating its piracy stance is what caused the ongoing debate.

Now, how does one post this story (seeing its all one user's comments) without metioning the piracy issue? Good question. :p

Sprung
Oct 24, 2007, 09:14 AM
I am reminded of two things in this thread:

1). The child who knows where Birthday presents are hidden, views them, and Looses the surprise of solar conjunction.

2). The big rated television show that creates multiple endings, in order to 'throw everyone off' on predicting the final episode.

I am under the impression Apple is aware of number 2, what was displayed as rumor was not Gold, and :) look forward to Friday's release.

dogtanian
Oct 24, 2007, 09:15 AM
I guess the one distinction I'd make between AppleInsider's series and this post was that AppleInsider didn't really comment at all about where they were getting their info/screenshots from. As far as I'm aware they just went straight into discussing history/features.

Does it make it better? Probably not. Does it justify their posting and not MacRumors'? Absolutely not. But I think that MR's bringing attention to the fact that it was "illegally obtained' information and restating its piracy stance is what caused the ongoing debate.

Now, how does one post this story (seeing its all one user's comments) without metioning the piracy issue? Good question. :p

I think it was macrumors members that demanded the original poster to tell them where he got it from. He was trying (Badly :p) to keep it quiet!

yzp
Oct 24, 2007, 09:17 AM
will it be "blazing fast", in comparison to tiger, with an old 1.2ppc?

GNU is Not Unix
Oct 24, 2007, 09:28 AM
I suspect many of the "moral" crusaders on this forum are AAPL stockholders who are afraid too many people downloading pirated versions of Leopard will result in reduced returns and thus lengthen the amount of time before they can put the down payment on their yacht. I sympathize.

BTW- Any word of if Safari is snappier in Leopard?

JSpence
Oct 24, 2007, 09:34 AM
Screenshot of Retail version which has been leaked into the internet:
http://bayimg.com/gAHGBaAbl

As you can see it's Retail versions, look at "About this Mac" window and dock on the right side.

This screenshot is a bit. . . "informative".

------------

Aside from that, I think everyone is so up in arms about the 'leaked' copy of leopard is because we all really really like apple and their products ( well, most of us ). I think we all find common ground here on the rumor site not because we are looking for freebies or hints on how to recieve pirated or free apple software, but because we all have a great respect for Apple and their products.
Aside from the faulty iPhones or or product manufacturing defects, we all really appreciate what apple does for the consumer, and we wake up everymorning and thank who or whatever it is that breathed life into this universe that we no longer have to use that machine that has more venom than satan himself, called a 'PC'.
I'm dissapointed too that it was leaked, but what are you going to do? He's not the only one who DLed this, apple maybe shouldve taken more precaution with shipping preperation? Not everyone is so trustworthy? But just like anything good, like the ending to a Harry Potter novel or Kanye's Graduation album on the torrents, Apple decided not to pull a Bay and put padlocks on all their Leopard crates. I'm not saying Apple is at fault for this, I'm saying it's just going to happen. We can look the other way, but in the next 2 days, the people who DL Leopard weren't planning on purchasing it in the first place. Probably wait until it's released and put onto the torrents.
I'm glad to hear everything runs smoothly so far. Glad Apple pulled off their second anticipated ship/release date. I understand arn or anyone of the moderators do not condone pirating software. It's simple to see it was posted because we don't approve, but we're interested enough to peek at it. Like the accident on the side of the road. . :rolleyes:

Diatribe
Oct 24, 2007, 09:35 AM
(I've remerged the site feedback thread into this one)

Here's the official response from the site owner. Site policy about the talk of piracy has been very consistent over the years.

Here's a post I made in 2005 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=1666785&postcount=5)


Someone posting their experiences with the Retail version of Leopard onto a public forum is newsworthy. People care about it, and that's why it is on the front page. Even that Retail Leopard has been leaked by itself is newsworthy and there will certainly be stories about it in the mainstream media later today.

I've posted this before, but a close parallel is AppleInsider's Leopard series. That information was obtained through a pirated version of Mac OS X Leopard Developer Seed. Almost certainly. It's unlikely that AppleInsider signed the NDA required to legally obtain Mac OS X Leopard.

Now, I understand that it may leave a bad taste in some people's mouths that the original source of this may likely have obtained a copy illegally. But this individual chose to do so and posted the information in a public forum. At that moment, the information contained was "out there" and of interest.

MacRumors did not ask that individual or any other individual to pirate Leopard to obtain any information.

I'm comfortable with this distinction, and still consider the information newsworthy.

arn


I don't think you should compare the in-depth AI articles to some incoherent ramblings of a random user but that's just me.

I guess the way it happened just left a bad taste in some people's mouth. I agree that it is of interest to hear about Leopard, I just don't think it was necessary to put a thread about a pirated version of Leopard of a user that has talked about pirating, etc. in the past on the front page, especially since it didn't really provide any info and it was so close to official release.

I just think it was bad judgement nothing else. I agree with the general idea of your argument though.