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MacRumors
Oct 24, 2007, 08:32 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Apple has seeded the usual technology reviewers with early copies of Mac OS X Leopard for review. The reviews were published tonight. Overall, Leopard is described to be a solid upgrade with only minor bugs encountered in the testing by the reviewers. David Pogue specifically states that he was using the final version of Leopard for a week prior to the review. Compatibility with existing applications is also described as good, and upgrades from existing Tiger installs appeared to go smoothly.

NYTimes - David Pogue (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/25/technology/circuits/25pogue.html?ex=1350964800&en=46e6096639495a7a&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)
• "The most serious misstep in Leopard is its new see-through menus. .... Often, Apple’s snazzy graphics are justifiable because they make the Mac more fun to use. In this case, though, nothing is gained, and much is lost."
• "Otherwise, the only cause for pause is the usual minor set of 1.0 bugs, which Apple generally fixes with software updates after a major release."
• "Leopard is powerful, polished and carefully conceived. Happy surprises, and very few disappointments, lie around every corner."

Wall Street Journal - Walt Mossberg (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119326655774870521.html?mod=technology_main_promo_left)
• "I did notice a few drawbacks, but they were minor."
• "In fact, every piece of software and hardware I tried on two Leopard-equipped Macs -- a loaned laptop from Apple and my own upgraded iMac -- worked fine, exhibiting none of the compatibility problems that continue to plague Vista."
• "Leopard isn't a must-have for current Mac owners, but it adds a lot of value."

USA Today - Edward Baig (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/edwardbaig/2007-10-24-leopard_N.htm?csp=34)
• "I migrated to Leopard from the last OS X version, Tiger, without pain on a MacBook laptop and my own iMac desktop"

Apple is launching Mac OS X Leopard on Friday, October 26th at 6 p.m. There have been a few scattered reports that Mac OS X Leopard has already arrived in the hands of some lucky customers today, but no unboxing photos have yet been published or submitted (http://www.macrumors.com/site.php?mode=submit).

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/24/mac-os-x-leopard-reviews-ny-times-wall-street-journal-usa-today/)



basesloaded190
Oct 24, 2007, 08:35 PM
i kinda want to know what they meant when they said that much is lost because of the menu and its graphics...? i thought these were going to be a really cool ideas. wonder what's the problem with all this?

MarkMS
Oct 24, 2007, 08:36 PM
In my opinion, I like the see-through menus. I have no idea what Pogue is talkin' about when "much is lost".

arn
Oct 24, 2007, 08:37 PM
i kinda want to know what they meant when they said that much is lost because of the dock and its graphics...? i thought that was going to be a really cool idea.

the titles link to the actual article. he thinks the translucency makes it hard to read.

arn

basesloaded190
Oct 24, 2007, 08:38 PM
the titles link to the actual article. he thinks the translucency makes it hard to read.

arn

i guess its just an opinion than but i can't wait for the little things like that

darthraige
Oct 24, 2007, 08:38 PM
I hate these moron critics that trash the software. Us die hard fans can't wait for this. We all know it won't be a disappointment to us loyal fans. What these critics don't understand is how much it will help us Production Editors with Leopard using 64bit and all 8-cores... Morons. Hate critics who don't know crap.

iMacZealot
Oct 24, 2007, 08:39 PM
Is the transparency worse than how it was in Mac OS 10.0 and 10.1? I didn't really mind the transparency there at all, but any less opacity will probably bother me.

Fabio_gsilva
Oct 24, 2007, 08:39 PM
It's great to hear good things about Leopard. Hope to feel my Mac snappier.

That-Is-Bull
Oct 24, 2007, 08:39 PM
The most serious misstep in Leopard is its new see-through menus.

"New see-through menus" like the ones in Tiger, or is he talking about the menu bar? Either way, good to see the biggest problem with Leopard is a minor aesthetic difference.

psxndc
Oct 24, 2007, 08:40 PM
Baig completely violating the EULA by installing one copy of Leopard on two Macs in the process... :D

arn
Oct 24, 2007, 08:46 PM
"New see-through menus" like the ones in Tiger, or is he talking about the menu bar? Either way, good to see the biggest problem with Leopard is a minor aesthetic difference.

He's talking about this I believe. Which exists in Tiger, but perhaps to a lesser degree.

MarkMS
Oct 24, 2007, 08:47 PM
Baig completely violating the EULA by installing one copy of Leopard on two Macs in the process... :D

Ah woo woo!! Shamey, shamey! :p

I wanted to do the same, but my conscience got the best of me. This way, I feel like I've helped Apple enough to where we won't get an activation wizard in the next major OS release. Plus, I have 4 Macs ... and it just wouldn't be ethical.

Sky Blue
Oct 24, 2007, 08:48 PM
i love the comment on the picture in the NY Times article..someone wasn't paying attention

Jetson
Oct 24, 2007, 08:51 PM
Leopard is finally here!

It's been a long time coming, but I'm sure it'll be worth the wait. :)

powermac_daddy
Oct 24, 2007, 08:53 PM
people are making this as a huge deal. it's big, but chill out. i am getting it in Dec...

sananda
Oct 24, 2007, 08:55 PM
I hate these moron critics that trash the software.

they seemed to like it :confused:

cohibadad
Oct 24, 2007, 08:56 PM
FWIW I have never noticed the translucent menus on the Leopard seeds. The older translucent menu bar was much more translucent but the latest is completely readable and I have desktop images cycling every 5 seconds.

jackc
Oct 24, 2007, 08:57 PM
Baig completely violating the EULA by installing one copy of Leopard on two Macs in the process... :D

It doesn't say it was one copy (although it might have been), he just said he installed on both.

HLdan
Oct 24, 2007, 08:58 PM
I find it interesting that Pogue cut off the edge of the Finder that reveals the scroll bars. I wonder if we are going to see something new? ;)

liberty4all
Oct 24, 2007, 09:01 PM
I find it unacceptable that Apple would try to stop the install of 10.5 on any G4, or G3 for that matter -- if someone wants to install, let them -- give a warning on requirements, but don't put in roadblocks.

The big problem is Apple never fully optimizes any hardware, because any gains are taken away by more feature fluff negating improvements. What they should do is allow the user to shut off the fluff, so 10.5 can run just fine on saw a G4 Sawtooth...

Sheesh!

mashinhead
Oct 24, 2007, 09:04 PM
i have to admit i hate walt mossberg. I don't know why exactly. He's so smug. He reminds me of an insect or a bug.

HLdan
Oct 24, 2007, 09:06 PM
I find it unacceptable that Apple would try to stop the install of 10.5 on any G4, or G3 for that matter -- if someone wants to install, let them -- give a warning on requirements, but don't put in roadblocks.

The big problem is Apple never fully optimizes any hardware, because any gains are taken away by more feature fluff negating improvements. What they should do is allow the user to shut off the fluff, so 10.5 can run just fine on saw a G4 Sawtooth...

Sheesh!


Unfortunately I have to disagree with you on this. Remember the iPhone disaster? Apple gave a warning of what might happen and nearly everyone went against their warning and jacked up their iPhone. Now say if installing Leopard on unsupported systems cause a loss of files then there will be some unhappy Mac customers. It's best to block installation rather than deal with lawsuits.

LaDirection
Oct 24, 2007, 09:07 PM
In my opinion, I like the see-through menus. I have no idea what Pogue is talkin' about when "much is lost".

Well, yeah, imagine reading a book that is translucent... What a dumb idea.

Watch out what wallpaper you put up!

MLeepson
Oct 24, 2007, 09:08 PM
I find it interesting that Pogue cut off the edge of the Finder that reveals the scroll bars. I wonder if we are going to see something new? ;)

I'd hate to pop your bubble (and maybe some other people's) but you can click that image and it's just and Apple press image. Nothing new. Sorry.

irahodges
Oct 24, 2007, 09:14 PM
I find it unacceptable that Apple would try to stop the install of 10.5 on any G4, or G3 for that matter -- if someone wants to install, let them -- give a warning on requirements, but don't put in roadblocks.

The big problem is Apple never fully optimizes any hardware, because any gains are taken away by more feature fluff negating improvements. What they should do is allow the user to shut off the fluff, so 10.5 can run just fine on saw a G4 Sawtooth...

Sheesh!

I have a 933 mhz quicksilver running as my media server. It is older than a sawtooth, and it meets apple's requirements. What are you complaining about?

Stella
Oct 24, 2007, 09:14 PM
Sounds like solid reviews.

Maybe 10.5 isn't the upgrade that others have been, but still, we'll see the full benefits in the future as developers start to utilitise the new set of API that 10.5 offers.

Glad to hear its ( probably ) not the disaster of Vista...

chelsel
Oct 24, 2007, 09:15 PM
How could he say there are "no more ways to organize photos"... I can't wait for automatic tagging based on content... you know, when your Apple recognizes the picture of your dog and automatically categorizes, Dog, Fido, Pet, etc.

That's an advancement... see through menus, bah :-)

irahodges
Oct 24, 2007, 09:16 PM
He's talking about this I believe. Which exists in Tiger, but perhaps to a lesser degree.

I know it is more translucent, but I believe it appears much more translucent than Tiger because they got rid of the pin stripes.

EDIT: After looking at Tiger's menu for a while, the horizontal pinstripes definitely help to direct your attention back to the text.

mrtekkid
Oct 24, 2007, 09:19 PM
I had a question, I am a bit hesitant to do an Archive and Install for Leopard due to some of the issues I have seen with Garageband and loops not working and Pro applications stop working. If I do a good ol' update I will be good with 64-bit correct??

It was reccomended that I do the ARchive and Install cause all my applications will still work ...but having to reinstall software like the Pro apps and things like Garageband are a good reason why I am hesitant to archive and install....

what's your opinion?? what potential issues could i have with an archive and install?? which to you reccomend?? that or just the regular upgrade??

cohibadad
Oct 24, 2007, 09:20 PM
Well, yeah, imagine reading a book that is translucent... What a dumb idea.

Watch out what wallpaper you put up!

It does depend a lot on what wallpaper you put up. On most the menus appear completely opaque but if there is a lot of contrast between the app window and a dark background you can clearly see the translucency but I haven't found any that make it difficult to read at all. I guess if I was reading the menus like a book for hours I could see it being a problem but for the average quick glance to activate a menu or even longer? no problemo.

mklos
Oct 24, 2007, 09:21 PM
I hate these moron critics that trash the software. Us die hard fans can't wait for this. We all know it won't be a disappointment to us loyal fans. What these critics don't understand is how much it will help us Production Editors with Leopard using 64bit and all 8-cores... Morons. Hate critics who don't know crap.


Did you even read the reviews? Where exactly did they trash the OS? No OS is perfect and they were simply stating their opinion on the downfalls. Ironically, they all had the basic downfalls (ie. translucent menus). This has actually been a complaint since it was debuted at WWDC '07.

The articles are leaned toward professional users, but rather regular home customers. Those people could care less about 64-bit support and most people except professionals will never utilize the 64-bit support.

What's worse than a little criticizing is Mac fanboys who can't accept a little Mac criticism. The Mac and Mac OS X isn't perfect and never will be. Some people just can't accept that.....

Marvy
Oct 24, 2007, 09:22 PM
He's talking about this I believe. Which exists in Tiger, but perhaps to a lesser degree.

Wow, I never noticed that in the screenshots before: Is it just the image compression, or is the background behind the menu actually blurred out? No wonder Leopard requires a powerful mac. :) Looks cool though.

cohibadad
Oct 24, 2007, 09:23 PM
I had a question, I am a bit hesitant to do an Archive and Install for Leopard due to some of the issues I have seen with Garageband and loops not working and Pro applications stop working. If I do a good ol' update I will be good with 64-bit correct??

It was reccomended that I do the ARchive and Install cause all my applications will still work ...but having to reinstall software like the Pro apps and things like Garageband are a good reason why I am hesitant to archive and install....

what's your opinion?? what potential issues could i have with an archive and install?? which to you reccomend?? that or just the regular upgrade??

I would upgrade if I was you. Much more likely to just work. With archive and install I would bet you would end up just reinstalling it all to make it work right.

cohibadad
Oct 24, 2007, 09:24 PM
Wow, I never noticed that in the screenshots before: Is it just the image compression, or is the background behind the menu actually blurred out? No wonder Leopard requires a powerful mac. :) Looks cool though.

it is blurred behind the menu. If you look close when you close a menu the image behind it stays blurred for a split second.

irahodges
Oct 24, 2007, 09:25 PM
Did you even read the reviews? Where exactly did they trash the OS? No OS is perfect and they were simply stating their opinion on the downfalls. Ironically, they all had the basic downfalls (ie. translucent menus). This has actually been a complaint since it was debuted at WWDC '07.

The articles are leaned toward professional users, but rather regular home customers. Those people could care less about 64-bit support and most people except professionals will never utilize the 64-bit support.

What's worse than a little criticizing is Mac fanboys who can't accept a little Mac criticism. The Mac and Mac OS X isn't perfect and never will be. Some people just can't accept that.....

you could have made your point without the last paragraph :p please, oh please let us not start another Mac fanboy argument...moving on

these reviews just feel like a marketing rehash of what we already know

ipearx
Oct 24, 2007, 09:26 PM
Did any of these "reviews" really tell us anything we didn't already know? I guess they have to keep them simple for the masses. Are there any more detailed reviews available?

bla.st/mac/ (http://bla.st/mac/)

jstad
Oct 24, 2007, 09:26 PM
good to see that the reviews are saying its a move forward. i agree and dont see why the top bar is now clear, seems pointless. :cool:

mklos
Oct 24, 2007, 09:28 PM
I had a question, I am a bit hesitant to do an Archive and Install for Leopard due to some of the issues I have seen with Garageband and loops not working and Pro applications stop working. If I do a good ol' update I will be good with 64-bit correct??

It was reccomended that I do the ARchive and Install cause all my applications will still work ...but having to reinstall software like the Pro apps and things like Garageband are a good reason why I am hesitant to archive and install....

what's your opinion?? what potential issues could i have with an archive and install?? which to you reccomend?? that or just the regular upgrade??


IMO, the best thing to is of course back up EVERYTHING first! Then try doing an archive and install or upgrade. Try it for a while and see what it does. If worse comes to worse, do an erase and install. Yes, you have to reinstall your apps, and restore your home folder, but its the best time to do it IMO. Gives you a clean start. Everyone's experience with Leopard is going to be different simply because everyone's setup is slightly different. No one Mac desktop is exactly the same. So if a friend of yours is having issues with Garageband or whatever, that doesn't necessarily mean you'll have issues. He/she may have something else installed that created the issue and its totally unrelated to what you have installed on your Mac. Leopard seems be to have turned the page with upgrades from the reviews. Sometimes it causes LOTS of issues for people that just do an upgrade. I have 2 Macs and will try an upgrade on my MBP simply because its only used at work most of the time with Windows XP, and I'll do an Erase and Install on my new 24" iMac. That way I can get all of the extra printer drivers, languages, etc out. Kind of kill 2 birds with one stone. Yes, I know it can be done without reinstalling the OS.

I understand that its not always feasible to do an erase and install. It does make it more time consuming to upgrade to Leopard, but it will give you fresh start and eliminate any potential OS upgrade conflicts that may appear. But, at least there isn't 500 MB of OS X updates to install like there is with Tiger currently. So that will save some time right there.

If any 3rd party software conflicts occur then of course we all play the waiting game for them to be released. Developers have had plenty of time to get them out so I think its unacceptable to have to wait weeks on end to get them released.

mrtekkid
Oct 24, 2007, 09:29 PM
I would upgrade if I was you. Much more likely to just work. With archive and install I would bet you would end up just reinstalling it all to make it work right.

okay will upgrading also give me 64 bit support too??

what are the advantages and disadvantages of the Archive and Install compared to the Upgrade??

cohibadad
Oct 24, 2007, 09:30 PM
good to see that the reviews are saying its a move forward. i agree and dont see why the top bar is now clear, seems pointless. :cool:

The menu bar isn't clear. It is silvery looking semi transparent and varies depending on the brightness of the background. If it is a light background the bar appears transparent. If it is a dark background it appears silvery. If the background is variable it seems to lean more towards silver to make it readable.

whoami
Oct 24, 2007, 09:31 PM
I have a 933 mhz quicksilver running as my media server. It is older than a sawtooth, and it meets apple's requirements. What are you complaining about?

WTF are you talking about, 933 quicksilver older than a sawtooth!! lol
do you even know what a sawtooth is?
Apple clearly states that a G4 867 is the requirement.

mklos
Oct 24, 2007, 09:32 PM
you could have made your point without the last paragraph :p please, oh please let us not start another Mac fanboy argument...moving on

these reviews just feel like a marketing rehash of what we already know

It wasn't meant to start another argument. If nobody comments on it, then it won't happen. :D His post just simply didn't make any sense what so ever....


Maybe we haven't learned anything new, but there are people out there who don't go to MacRumors, or Apple's website to see the new features. So, when they see these articles on news websites and in newspapers all around the world, they'll be at least up to par with what we know and possibly be interested in purchasing either a new Mac, or upgrading their Mac to Leopard. I don't think the articles are meant to people like us who keep up on Mac news daily, but rather the people who don't.

mrtekkid
Oct 24, 2007, 09:33 PM
IMO, the best thing to is of course back up EVERYTHING first! Then try doing an archive and install. Try it for a while and see what it does. If worse comes to worse, do an erase and install. Yes, you have to reinstall your apps, and restore your home folder, but its the best time to do it IMO. Gives you a clean start. Everyone's experience with Leopard is going to be different simply because everyone's setup is slightly different. No one Mac desktop is exactly the same. So if a friend of yours is having issues with Garageband or whatever, that doesn't necessarily mean you'll have issues. He/she may have something else installed that created the issue and its totally unrelated to what you have installed on your Mac.

I understand that its not always feasible to do an erase and install. It does make it more time consuming to upgrade to Leopard, but it will give you fresh start and eliminate any potential OS upgrade conflicts that may appear. But, at least there isn't 500 MB of OS X updates to install like there is with Tiger currently. So that will save some time right there.

If any 3rd party software conflicts occur then of course we all play the waiting game for them to be released. Developers have had plenty of time to get them out so I think its unacceptable to have to wait weeks on end to get them released.

well i saw this link on the apple site that made me hesitant
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93151

joseph2166
Oct 24, 2007, 09:35 PM
As usual the mainstream reviews of OS X are 90% useless for people who know anything about it before going in. For example all three reviewers spend nearly all their Time Machine column space talking about what it is - and practically no time saying how good it is (or isn't!).

Guess we'll have to wait till the mac sites get their hands on it - oh wait, I'll already own leopard by then...

irahodges
Oct 24, 2007, 09:37 PM
WTF are you talking about, 933 quicksilver older than a sawtooth!! lol
do you even know what a sawtooth is?
Apple clearly states that a G4 867 is the requirement.

my mistake, i was thinking about the mirrored-door powermac...slipped my mind....you can continue being mad at Apple, but I would suggest getting a new computer ;)

cohibadad
Oct 24, 2007, 09:38 PM
okay will upgrading also give me 64 bit support too??

what are the advantages and disadvantages of the Archive and Install compared to the Upgrade??

archive and install moves everything to a previous system folder so the the new Leopard OS won't be interfered with by problem apps. For simple one file apps you can launch them from that folder. For apps with hooks in various places you would need to move all of the various pieces to the new home manually to get them to work. An upgrade would make the app work without messing around. I cannot answer the first part of your question absolutely but I wouldn't think a fresh install would be any different than an upgrade. If you are worried then the safest thing to do is fresh install the app not archive and install. FYI if I click my garageband in my previous system folder it gives me a library error and won't start.

thejadedmonkey
Oct 24, 2007, 09:38 PM
If any 3rd party software conflicts occur then of course we all play the waiting game for them to be released. Developers have had plenty of time to get them out so I think its unacceptable to have to wait weeks on end to get them released.

Developers have only had beta software to test on, so the best that they can claim, is that it should work. Developers won't get their hands on 10.5 until Friday at 6:00pm, at the earliest. When they install it and test their software, and then people complain to them saturday evening at 6:00pm, they will have had exactly 24 hours with Leopard.

pomus
Oct 24, 2007, 09:38 PM
Well, yeah, imagine reading a book that is translucent... What a dumb idea.

Watch out what wallpaper you put up!


Err... I see what you mean but, in my opinion, you should read books on paper. Screens have such low ppi that it would be painful.

I've tried reading pdf books before, but it was a pain!

IOW, reading some words in a translucent background is really no biggie. Me Like! :)

hugodrax
Oct 24, 2007, 09:38 PM
In my opinion, I like the see-through menus. I have no idea what Pogue is talkin' about when "much is lost".

The problem with the see through menus is it makes it a little harder on the eyes when you have things behind the menus. I think they should have made them more opaque.

mklos
Oct 24, 2007, 09:39 PM
well i saw this link on the apple site that made me hesitant
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93151

It almost sounds like you'll be re-installing regardless of what you choose. So I guess it just depends on how long you want to spend upgrading to Leopard. Its kind of a crapshoot in a way because at this point, nobody really knows what's going to happen yet.

queshy
Oct 24, 2007, 09:39 PM
meh pretty bland reviews...nothing I didn't know already. bring leopard on though!

hugodrax
Oct 24, 2007, 09:40 PM
"New see-through menus" like the ones in Tiger, or is he talking about the menu bar? Either way, good to see the biggest problem with Leopard is a minor aesthetic difference.

the menus on the menu-bars, they are too opaque in my opinon I am running leopard on my work mac pro.

cohibadad
Oct 24, 2007, 09:41 PM
well i saw this link on the apple site that made me hesitant
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93151

that article is saying Archive and Install will mess u up for pro apps. Doing the OS upgrade is your best bet unless you just want to reinstall from original DVDs.

AlBDamned
Oct 24, 2007, 09:42 PM
Am about to read Goatberg's review, but can someone please tell me since when does a copy, paste and re-edit of Leopards' feature blurb, with a few comments thrown in, equal a "review". Baig's article is incredibly shallow. And they gave him an iMac for a week to test it... :rolleyes:

hugodrax
Oct 24, 2007, 09:43 PM
I find it unacceptable that Apple would try to stop the install of 10.5 on any G4, or G3 for that matter -- if someone wants to install, let them -- give a warning on requirements, but don't put in roadblocks.

The big problem is Apple never fully optimizes any hardware, because any gains are taken away by more feature fluff negating improvements. What they should do is allow the user to shut off the fluff, so 10.5 can run just fine on saw a G4 Sawtooth...

Sheesh!

10.5 is snappier than tiger on my Work mac pro and you will really notice a huge difference when you are running lots of apps and tying up the ram. 10.5 is faster and I suspect lots of things under the hood were optimized.

Taylor C
Oct 24, 2007, 09:44 PM
Seems really positive. Can't wait for Friday. :)

Quillz
Oct 24, 2007, 09:44 PM
Sounds like solid reviews.

Maybe 10.5 isn't the upgrade that others have been, but still, we'll see the full benefits in the future as developers start to utilitise the new set of API that 10.5 offers.

Glad to hear its ( probably ) not the disaster of Vista...
Vista wasn't a disaster, despite what a very small minority of vocal bloggers would like you to believe.

phuong
Oct 24, 2007, 09:45 PM
i have never liked the idea of transparent meny thingy either. ive seen them at many places, even in movies (like Minority Report).
they might look cool, but not when put into use.

irahodges
Oct 24, 2007, 09:46 PM
that article is saying Archive and Install will mess u up for pro apps. Doing the OS upgrade is your best bet unless you just want to reinstall from original DVDs.

To add: I have always done an upgrade, and I would say roughly 90% of people do upgrades as well (pulled this number out of my head). I don't think you will have any problems with just upgrading. I always recommend copying your users folder for back up though! Personally, it is just too much of a hassle to erase and install unless you are having problems with your system.

offwidafairies
Oct 24, 2007, 09:48 PM
He's talking about this I believe. Which exists in Tiger, but perhaps to a lesser degree.

those pics look *****
hmmm i find transluceny annoying most of the time. especially text on text
looks ok when its graphic on text or visa versa

hugodrax
Oct 24, 2007, 09:48 PM
Parallels works fine also, I have two virtual XP full screen desktops one of them is connected to an airgapped network and I used nic 2 for it. Its real cool to crtl-arrow. :) people get a kick out of watching me operate using 6 spaces and a **** load of OS X,unix apps and two virtuals :) Oh and terminal got a nice overhaul I love the enhancements and I kicked iTerm to the curb.

I abused leopard and its pretty tight for a beta. So I suspect it will be a reliable product for end users.

mrtekkid
Oct 24, 2007, 09:51 PM
that article is saying Archive and Install will mess u up for pro apps. Doing the OS upgrade is your best bet unless you just want to reinstall from original DVDs.

Ill be upgrading then...... instead of archive and installing.... mainly because I will not have too much time to mess around with that stuff

the system is only 4 months old... but i have a lot on here.... so i dont see what the harm would do to just upgrade...i do not have any issues with the OS right now... ill just back up everything first just in case and just upgrade.....

cohibadad
Oct 24, 2007, 10:03 PM
Ill be upgrading then...... instead of archive and installing.... mainly because I will not have too much time to mess around with that stuff

the system is only 4 months old... but i have a lot on here.... so i dont see what the harm would do to just upgrade...i do not have any issues with the OS right now... ill just back up everything first just in case and just upgrade.....

I would hate for anyone to Archive and Install Leopard thinking that it is the best way for their apps to work. It is the worst way. The most reliable way for your old apps to work with Leopard is to reinstall but upgrading the OS would work just as well most of the time in my experience. Pro apps would be a big hassle to get working unless you know all of the systems and library folders used by the app and drag them over manually. If you look at the install size of Final Cut Pro and total up the size of the apps in the applications folder you'll notice about 90% of install size not accounted for. It's in the supporting folders in library and system. I didn't upgrade to Leopard seed on a machine with Final Cut Pro but I did on machines with iLife 08 and upgrade worked fine.

jbstew32
Oct 24, 2007, 10:05 PM
why doesn't Apple just build more options for customizing the appearance? why can't they add a slider bar to adjust the opacity of the menubar/menus? why can't they add options to let people choose between the aqua look vs the gray look they are going with now?

I might be missing something, but it seems like there would be more built in flexibility for customizing the look of the GUI.


This is the only real beef I have with OSX, and even then it's not a significant one.

irahodges
Oct 24, 2007, 10:08 PM
why doesn't Apple just build more options for customizing the appearance? why can't they add a slider bar to adjust the opacity of the menubar/menus? why can't they add options to let people choose between the aqua look vs the gray look they are going with now?

I might be missing something, but it seems like there would be more built in flexibility for customizing the look of the GUI.


This is the only real beef I have with OSX, and even then it's not a significant one.

I completely agree. While, I don't think they should go all out with complete skins and adjustments, some flexibility would be nice. Your examples are perfect (include a dock option as well for those not thrilled) and could be elegantly implemented within System Preferences.

Stella
Oct 24, 2007, 10:12 PM
Vista wasn't a disaster, despite what a very small minority of vocal bloggers would like you to believe.

LOL - 'vocal bloggers'. Err, how about mainstream press?

- microsoft having to extend the life of XP
- PC stores reporting lower than expected profits - due to low take up of Vista
- software not working
- hardware not working / drivers not ready for Vista release
- PC sellers / manufacturers asked to ship XP instead of Vista
- Consumer associations boycotting Vista

Stories:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,134962-pg,1/article.html
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2007/10/18/dsg_vista_profits_down/
http://www.news.com/Microsoft-extends-Windows-XPs-stay/2100-1016_3-6210524.html
http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/47939
http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=543
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2007/10/13/dutch_consumer_association_declares_war/

Thats just less than 5 minutes searching. Hardly small vocal bloggers. There are articles from mainstream newspapers too ( fact, not opinion ).

Vista has hardly been a roaring success....

MaliciousDesign
Oct 24, 2007, 10:24 PM
David Pogue is an incredibly tough reviewer, but a good one nonetheless. The guy from The Wall Street journal writes, and his video sounds, like a snoozefest. As for the guy from the USA Today, he would definitely be someone that would visit these forums. :)

cohibadad
Oct 24, 2007, 10:24 PM
LOL - 'vocal bloggers'. Err, how about mainstream press?

- microsoft having to extend the life of XP
- PC stores reporting lower than expected profits - due to low take up of Vista
- software not working
- hardware not working / drivers not ready for Vista release
- PC sellers / manufacturers asked to ship XP instead of Vista
- Consumer associations boycotting Vista

Stories:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,134962-pg,1/article.html
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2007/10/18/dsg_vista_profits_down/
http://www.news.com/Microsoft-extends-Windows-XPs-stay/2100-1016_3-6210524.html
http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/47939
http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=543
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2007/10/13/dutch_consumer_association_declares_war/

Thats just less than 5 minutes searching. Hardly small vocal bloggers.

Vista has been a disaster. End of story.

I look forward to using Leopard every day and miss all sorts of things when I return to a Tiger machine. I use Leopard 527 and am excited to get the retail release. Leopard is a pleasure to use.

I use Vista everyday and don't look forward to it. In fact, I kind of dread it because of applications crashing, the frequent user overrides for install warnings, and various odd behaviors. I don't really see any advantage of Vista over XP and will probably just reinstall XP unless things improve. I do hope that Direct X 10 games will be amazing enough to justify Vista.

I am probably not the only one with that experience. I don't know if that makes it a disaster but it's at least a disappointment for some.

Multimedia
Oct 24, 2007, 10:30 PM
Isn't the transparency David complains about an option we can turn off or adjust? :confused:

digitalbiker
Oct 24, 2007, 10:32 PM
Using the Leopard betas and doing a system upgrade I had problems with getting Parallels 3.0 to run. VMware Fusion upgraded fine but not Parallels.

However Parallels works fine under Leopard with a re-install from original disks.

In my opinion, if you use a lot of different Pro apps you might as well carbon copy clone your entire drive, Erase and Install Leopard, use migration assistant to move over doc files, itunes files, etc. and re-install all pro apps. Besides it is the perfect time to do house cleaning and re-organizing file systems for Leopard.

cohibadad
Oct 24, 2007, 10:32 PM
Isn't the transparency David complains about an option we can turn off or adjust? :confused:

not without 3rd party software. It is not a preferences option.

irahodges
Oct 24, 2007, 10:44 PM
I suggest as soon as everyone gets leopard, we organize a mass e-mailing to apple for ability to slightly customize transparency, aqua scroll bars to iTunes scroll bars, and dock away from 3D features. This can all be done at apple.com/feeback.

I don't see anything wrong with those things, in fact I love the way apple did them so far, but I enjoy choice! Now who's with me??? Chaaaarge

bellis1
Oct 24, 2007, 10:48 PM
The menubar is absolutely unbearable, but you can fix it by editing your desktop pics and putting a white stripe at the top. It took me less than 5 minutes, but I don't change my desktop image often.

I also ran into some issues with an applescript I use to maximize finder windows. It used to work fine, but now it expands the windows behind the menubar. I guess it makes sense if you now consider the desktop covers the entire screen and the menubar is just an overlay. I think before the entire desktop only extended to the menubar. I'm not sure what the implications of that are for developers.

ajhill
Oct 24, 2007, 10:49 PM
If people don't like the transparent windows, Apple will just put a slider in the systems settings preference pane to adjust the amount of transparency from opaque to transparent.

That's just the "listen to your customer", take charge kind of company that Steve Jobs has been running in the past few years. Why do you think they commandeered another 4% market share from windows.

Sure Bill Gates didn't mind Apple having a 4% market share. But when they doubled it recently to 8.1% you can bet that a few eyebrows went up in Redmond. The next 4% (for a total of 12.1%) will REALLY hurt Microsoft, because the "what if" stories will be starting. With Vista sucking wind I can't wait to install my Leopard :)

Sorry Bill, this round goes to Apple, with a Leopard win. Better luck next time in 2010 with that Windows 7 thing. Maybe instead of Vista you could call it, "Rest Area", where people could take a break from the "Social" and the "Wow" that seems to have started and not really gone anywhere.

Jdot
Oct 24, 2007, 10:53 PM
not without 3rd party software. It is not a preferences option.

It is in the final version =D

cohibadad
Oct 24, 2007, 11:17 PM
It is in the final version =D

wow. Apple has some surprises. I wonder what else they changed. Must...resist...torrent

matticus008
Oct 24, 2007, 11:18 PM
Baig completely violating the EULA by installing one copy of Leopard on two Macs in the process... :D

It doesn't say it was one copy (although it might have been), he just said he installed on both.
Most reviewers are under a different license. Apple will also grant you a Right to Copy in certain circumstances, which alters the 1:1 relationship between discs and licenses. There are all kinds of special exceptions and different terms when you're not just a "regular person."

motulist
Oct 24, 2007, 11:44 PM
the menus on the menu-bars, they are too opaque in my opinon I am running leopard on my work mac pro.

Too opaque? I've never ever heard anyone complain that the menus are too opaque. Are you sure you don't mean you think they're too transparent? Just checking.

opaque=NOT see through, like a wall.
transparent= CAN be seen through, like glass.

motulist
Oct 24, 2007, 11:49 PM
It is in the final version =D

Really? You're sure there's a preference setting for menu transparency? Are you just passing along info you've heard others say, or have you actually used leopard yourself and seen it?

evilgEEk
Oct 24, 2007, 11:50 PM
I'm really excited for Leopard, but the translucent menus are a little too translucent for my liking. I hope it will be adjustable.

I can't wait for Time Machine, Spaces and Stacks.

I can see myself using Spaces and Stacks a LOT.

:D

Quillz
Oct 24, 2007, 11:53 PM
If people don't like the transparent windows, Apple will just put a slider in the systems settings preference pane to adjust the amount of transparency from opaque to transparent.

That's just the "listen to your customer", take charge kind of company that Steve Jobs has been running in the past few years. Why do you think they commandeered another 4% market share from windows.

Sure Bill Gates didn't mind Apple having a 4% market share. But when they doubled it recently to 8.1% you can bet that a few eyebrows went up in Redmond. The next 4% (for a total of 12.1%) will REALLY hurt Microsoft, because the "what if" stories will be starting. With Vista sucking wind I can't wait to install my Leopard :)

Sorry Bill, this round goes to Apple, with a Leopard win. Better luck next time in 2010 with that Windows 7 thing. Maybe instead of Vista you could call it, "Rest Area", where people could take a break from the "Social" and the "Wow" that seems to have started and not really gone anywhere.
Leopard wins with 4% of the market? I don't think so.

mouthster
Oct 24, 2007, 11:54 PM
It is in the final version =D

Uhh, no it isn't

digitalbiker
Oct 25, 2007, 12:00 AM
I'm really excited for Leopard, but the translucent menus are a little too translucent for my liking. I hope it will be adjustable.

I can't wait for Time Machine, Spaces and Stacks.

I can see myself using Spaces and Stacks a LOT.

:D

I keep hearing this enthusiasm for Stacks but for the life of me I can't figure out why? Personally I am not thrilled by it at all. I really don't see how it provides any more functionality than is currently present in the dock.

Right now if you click and hold on a dock file icon it opens up the file hierarchy vertically above the file icon. In stacks you click once on the file icon and it opens in an arch (whoop-de-frigin-doo). Or you can set it to open in a grid. Currently you click on the file icon and it opens in a window. (Grid Leopard / Window Tiger) again what's the difference.

Spaces is very useful. Time machine will be a nice safety feature but will probably hardly ever get used by most users (at least most users hope it never has to be used because that usually means a failure of some sort)

I think Leopards greatest assets are speed, mail, better use of intel multi-core processors.

MacTheSpoon
Oct 25, 2007, 12:05 AM
Leopard sounds good. I will pick up a copy this weekend.

And it's cool that you can upgrade without having to redo your existing Boot Camp partition!

jackc
Oct 25, 2007, 12:11 AM
Did anyone see the blurb for this review on the home page (http://www.nytimes.com/) of the NYT?

"Apple Offers New Goodies in Leopard System

Apple's new version of Leopard lists 300 new features, including a Braille font and a Danish spelling checker."

Not exactly capturing the point of the article.

Quillz
Oct 25, 2007, 12:12 AM
It is in the final version =D
No, it's not.

Maui
Oct 25, 2007, 12:15 AM
I hate these moron critics that trash the software. Us die hard fans can't wait for this. We all know it won't be a disappointment to us loyal fans. What these critics don't understand is how much it will help us Production Editors with Leopard using 64bit and all 8-cores... Morons. Hate critics who don't know crap.

Good call. Anyone who isn't 100% positive about Leopard is a "moron critic" who is "trash[ing]" the software.

I myself hate posters who trash reviews and their authors without having even read the reviews. Pogue and Mossberg "don't know crap"? OK, move along.

digitalbiker
Oct 25, 2007, 12:17 AM
Did anyone see the blurb for this review on the home page (http://www.nytimes.com/) of the NYT?

"Apple Offers New Goodies in Leopard System

Apple's new version of Leopard lists 300 new features, including a Braille font and a Danish spelling checker."

Not exactly capturing the point of the article.

I guess the braille font must work with special printers that emboss the font on paper. Otherwise, I can't see the use of printed braille.

jackc
Oct 25, 2007, 12:20 AM
I guess the braille font must work with special printers that emboss the font on paper. Otherwise, I can't see the use of printed braille.

I guess you could compose some text that you're sending off for someone else to print

irahodges
Oct 25, 2007, 12:26 AM
I guess the braille font must work with special printers that emboss the font on paper. Otherwise, I can't see the use of printed braille.

or this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refreshable_Braille_display

avalys
Oct 25, 2007, 12:32 AM
Apple is not big on customization. Frankly, I'm surprised they let people adjust the Dock size and magnification.

Generally, Apple's policy is that that they figure out the optimal settings, and then you can sit down and work without having to mess with it. I like it this way - it's not like Linux where you feel obligated to spend 5 hours dicking around and getting things just the way you like them.

My guess is, if enough people dislike the transparent menubar and menus, they will simply increase the opacity in 10.5.1. I'd be money there it will never be a configurable option.

motulist
Oct 25, 2007, 12:52 AM
if enough people dislike the transparent menubar and menus, they will simply increase the opacity in 10.5.1. I'd be money there it will never be a configurable option.

Well, not an official configurable option anyway. Just like with the Dock transparency, 3rd parties will give you control of the missing options. There are configurable options built into the OS that are not given a front end preference for the user to tweak, but 3rd parties release programs that give you configurable settings that control the settings already built into the system.

SiliconAddict
Oct 25, 2007, 01:57 AM
Walt Mossberg really is the ultimate brown noser. :rolleyes:

I will continue to type this until my fingers fall off my hands: You can NOT compare Vista to Leopard when it comes to the transition from Tiger to Leopard and XP to Vista. The changes ARE worlds apart. Apple made this transition 7 years ago. And NO ONE. Absolutely NO ONE can claim that it was smooth. Heck the biggest transition Apple has had to deal with over the last 3 years was the migration to x86 which they did almost flawlessly. However, and I will also continue to point this out, the hardware and software that MS has to support dwarf Apple. People bitch about Windows's install size and they don't get that about a quarter of that are drivers. Hell MS is still trying to support DOS based apps in a limited way. When did Apple drop OS 9 based apps support in any meaningful way? Wasn't that in 10.3? The IT industry would have MS roasted on coals if they tried some of the things Apple routinely pulls. Wasn't it until 10.3 (or was it 10.4?) that Apple finally stabilized their API so that it wasn't a moving target from OS to OS. While MS does the same thing they do their damnedest to try and make things backwards compatible while trying to move things forward. Its not easy to fix as big of a security hole that Windows is, and yes it is a HUGE one, without breaking every app out there. Whatever. Go ahead and flame on. Its like banging my head into the Great Wall of China. Fat lot of good it will do. http://home.comcast.net/~jonnormand/icons/posting.php_files/icon_confused.gif

Apple is not big on customization. Frankly, I'm surprised they let people adjust the Dock size and magnification.

Generally, Apple's policy is that that they figure out the optimal settings, and then you can sit down and work without having to mess with it. I like it this way - it's not like Linux where you feel obligated to spend 5 hours dicking around and getting things just the way you like them.



and this is my biggest bitch about OS X and Apple. Why the heck shouldn't we be able to customize our OS? Its the hight of arrogance to assume that one OS fits everyone's tastes. The simple fact is that it doesn't, and MS realized this long ago. Apple should stop being a snob and integrate a theming engine instead of having third party companies do it. If people like the UI the won't mess with it and leave it alone. For the rest of it it would bring the long forgotten concept of thinking different back to the Mac OS.

mgguy
Oct 25, 2007, 02:32 AM
Why has Apple made menus or anything else transparent? Do they think we need to see what is underneath? If so, why not make it even more transparent so you can actually see what's below? I haven't used Leopard yet, so maybe there is some value in see-through menus that I am not yet aware of. Hopefully, they aren't doing it just to make it look better, because it sure as hell doesn't in my opinion.

Mekgek
Oct 25, 2007, 03:31 AM
Why has Apple made menus or anything else transparent? Do they think we need to see what is underneath? If so, why not make it even more transparent so you can actually see what's below? I haven't used Leopard yet, so maybe there is some value in see-through menus that I am not yet aware of. Hopefully, they aren't doing it just to make it look better, because it sure as hell doesn't in my opinion.

Indeed, I think they just wanted to change something for the benefit of changing something. Unfortunately/fortunately Tigers visuals are almost perfect so it's likely that you'll screw something up by changing it, and that's exactly what happened.

matticus008
Oct 25, 2007, 03:51 AM
Its the hight of arrogance to assume that one OS fits everyone's tastes.
It's the height of arrogance to assume that your tastes should be relevant to someone else. It's not like it's a surprise that Apple is a control freak or that they value their aesthetic image. They write software with a set of principles in mind and don't really care whether it appeals to everyone on the face of the earth.
Apple should stop being a snob and integrate a theming engine instead of having third party companies do it.
Why? What would be gained from such an act? Inevitably it would be lacking some particular customization that someone would whine about. It would complicate setups and disassociate the aesthetics of the system. Integrated customization is a waste. UNO and ShapeShifter work fine.
If people like the UI the won't mess with it and leave it alone.
People who don't like it can use ShapeShifter or they can tinker with UI resources manually (which, incidentally, is much easier than Windows). It's a non-problem.

markfc
Oct 25, 2007, 04:32 AM
"Time Machine keeps multiple backups of everything — programs, settings, files, photos, even the operating system itself — on a second hard drive (or another Leopard Mac on the network). The need for a second drive is a drag, but it’s a necessary evil. Besides, hard drives are cheap; you can buy an internal 250-gigabyte one for $75."

The need for a 2nd Hard Drive a drag? Really? For a backup?
And what you restore from should your primary drive fail??

I'm already preparing to move to vista cause the folder icons are prettier !!!!!! ( right.... )

My Leopard just shipped so I'll have it tomorrow...woo hoo!

twoodcc
Oct 25, 2007, 06:05 AM
seem to be pretty good reviews so far. not great though.

dmarkman
Oct 25, 2007, 06:40 AM
Well, yeah, imagine reading a book that is translucent... What a dumb idea.

Watch out what wallpaper you put up!

nothing special
in WWDC release, indeed, transparency was, well, too much
but in latest seeds it was just fine (at least in my opinion)

Small White Car
Oct 25, 2007, 07:11 AM
I hate these moron critics that trash the software.

:rolleyes: You must not get out much if you thought those were bad reviews.

heisetax
Oct 25, 2007, 07:41 AM
they seemed to like it :confused:


I agree with you. The reviewers appeared to like it. Only those that only see Apple as doing all right will see these reviews as really liking Mac OS 10.5. Apple does do a few things wrong, some not as some would like. Generally that does not mean that the software is getting bad reviews. Aperture appears to be one that Apple isn't batting 100% on up to this point.

Bill the TaxMan

tedhogan
Oct 25, 2007, 08:01 AM
Wow... I must be one of the only Mac users who never realized that the menus were see-thru on Tiger...

I also never realized that I could hold down the mouse button on a folder on the dock to view a list of it's contents...

I need to get out more...
:D

Lonon
Oct 25, 2007, 08:41 AM
What about John Siracusa?

The guy has writen full blown reviews about every single Mac OS X release since developer preview 3 of 10.0. That's what I wanna read, not Pogue or "Walby"...

Edit:
John is preparing the review: http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/10/16/with-every-major-mac-os-x-release-comes-a-review

Toru-kun
Oct 25, 2007, 09:55 AM
if the freezing issues related to the graphic card of the new iMac Alu will disappear once I install Leopard on my iMac, but I guess this is the one millon dollars question and nobody knows its answer.:confused:

BLUELION
Oct 25, 2007, 10:57 AM
I suggest as soon as everyone gets leopard, we organize a mass e-mailing to apple for ability to slightly customize transparency, aqua scroll bars to iTunes scroll bars, and dock away from 3D features. This can all be done at apple.com/feeback.

I don't see anything wrong with those things, in fact I love the way apple did them so far, but I enjoy choice! Now who's with me??? Chaaaarge

Sounds good to me. Anyone else?:apple:

Braz0s
Oct 25, 2007, 11:05 AM
One thing I don't see mentioned much is that 10.5 is 64 bit. Vista requires a another version for 64 bit and it's missing many drivers. 10.5 is 64 bit without driver issues (that I've heard of)

mspman
Oct 25, 2007, 11:07 AM
Here's a good article from InfoWorld as well:

http://weblog.infoworld.com/yager/archives/2007/10/take_me_home_le.html

BLUELION
Oct 25, 2007, 11:12 AM
If people don't like the transparent windows, Apple will just put a slider in the systems settings preference pane to adjust the amount of transparency from opaque to transparent.

That's just the "listen to your customer", take charge kind of company that Steve Jobs has been running in the past few years. Why do you think they commandeered another 4% market share from windows.

Sure Bill Gates didn't mind Apple having a 4% market share. But when they doubled it recently to 8.1% you can bet that a few eyebrows went up in Redmond. The next 4% (for a total of 12.1%) will REALLY hurt Microsoft, because the "what if" stories will be starting. With Vista sucking wind I can't wait to install my Leopard :)

Sorry Bill, this round goes to Apple, with a Leopard win. Better luck next time in 2010 with that Windows 7 thing. Maybe instead of Vista you could call it, "Rest Area", where people could take a break from the "Social" and the "Wow" that seems to have started and not really gone anywhere.

It is just the full circle coming to completion. When you control the software and the hardware it is hard to fail especially when you have a guy leading the way with visionary leadership. As I posted before here it is about critical mass. yes apple has had a small community compared to the MS community, but the :apple: community has been more of a collaborative mindset to improve the environment we all operate with in. This has allowed us, over the years, to gain a strong sense of identity and this my fellow :apple:heads is what will allow us to recruit more members to establish the Apple critical mass.

But we must be careful to ensure that our environment maintains its current levels of openness and collaborativeness otherwise we will sail the way of MS.

jelloshotsrule
Oct 25, 2007, 11:49 AM
something that came to mind, and sorry if it's a repeat - i haven't followed every leopard thread, with time machine.

every site/review talks about how you recover lost files from leopard using time machine. however, let's say you have 2 drives, one as your OS and one as the time machine. and the main OS drive fails, completely. how does one recover what's on the backup drive? is it bootable? how does that process work?

just curious if anyone has insight on this

cmcconkey
Oct 25, 2007, 12:06 PM
something that came to mind, and sorry if it's a repeat - i haven't followed every leopard thread, with time machine.

every site/review talks about how you recover lost files from leopard using time machine. however, let's say you have 2 drives, one as your OS and one as the time machine. and the main OS drive fails, completely. how does one recover what's on the backup drive? is it bootable? how does that process work?

just curious if anyone has insight on this

I believe that the restore feature on the Leopard DVD that allows you to choose an iteration of your Time Machine. At least I think I remember reading this somewhere.


Christopher

jelloshotsrule
Oct 25, 2007, 12:13 PM
ahh interesting, so you have to boot from the disc, but can restore through that. cool. thanks

sananda
Oct 25, 2007, 12:17 PM
Wow... I must be one of the only Mac users who never realized that the menus were see-thru on Tiger...

I also never realized that I could hold down the mouse button on a folder on the dock to view a list of it's contents...

I need to get out more...
:D

sounds like you are getting out a sufficient amount since you don't know everything about your computer :D

GTiPhone
Oct 25, 2007, 01:03 PM
In my opinion, I like the see-through menus. I have no idea what Pogue is talkin' about when "much is lost".

And neither does David Pogue. It really aggrivates me that the first "official" reviews always come from he and mossberg, neither one having a concept of Apple products or OSX.

Every review they write strikes me as uninformed and always "missing the point" so to speak. They both seem like they only use OSX on days when there is smething to review and never otherwise.

gwangung
Oct 25, 2007, 01:09 PM
And neither does David Pogue. It really aggrivates me that the first "official" reviews always come from he and mossberg, neither one having a concept of Apple products or OSX.

Every review they right strikes me as uninformed and always "missing the point" so to speak. They both seem like they only use OSX on days when there is smething to review and never otherwise.

This is the David Pogue who was an Apple enthusiast from the 1980s and 1990s, right? The one who was writing Apple books and columns extolling their machines when the company was in serious financial trouble, right?

I think there are a lot of people who don't know what they're talking about...:rolleyes:

digitalbiker
Oct 25, 2007, 01:57 PM
This is the David Pogue who was an Apple enthusiast from the 1980s and 1990s, right? The one who was writing Apple books and columns extolling their machines when the company was in serious financial trouble, right?

I think there are a lot of people who don't know what they're talking about...:rolleyes:

Yeah, I guess David never turned on an Apple computer when he wrote all of his "Missing Manual" series of books, his hints and tips books, and his past appearances on radio and tv tech shows pushing Apple technology.

Give me a break people, Pogue is a great asset for the Mac community. He loves Apple and OS X. Just because he doesn't like transparent menus that make reading more difficult is no reason to throw him under a bus

mdriftmeyer
Oct 25, 2007, 04:01 PM
okay will upgrading also give me 64 bit support too??

what are the advantages and disadvantages of the Archive and Install compared to the Upgrade??

Your upgrading to Leopard will give you the 64 bit kernel if and only if you have a Core2Duo or newer CPU.

If your CPU isn't 64 bit through and through you won't get those advantages.

If you have a PowerMac G5 you won't get the 64 bit kernel, but you will be able to take advantage of 64 bit extensions in certain areas.

Check System Profiler and read up on your CPU. If it lists 64 bit then you will get all the 64 bit goodness.

arkmannj
Oct 25, 2007, 04:15 PM
With all the talk about the translucent menus maybe Apple should allow users to adjust the opacity level of various elements, I don't mind the translucent menus but I can see my preference changing from time to time (depending on background image, my mood, what I'm doing, etc.)

I also think it would be cool to be able to switch UI settings between the different looks Mac OS X has had over the years. I like the UI as it is, but my mood changes on occasion, as do other peoples I believe.

mdriftmeyer
Oct 25, 2007, 04:45 PM
With all the talk about the translucent menus maybe Apple should allow users to adjust the opacity level of various elements, I don't mind the translucent menus but I can see my preference changing from time to time (depending on background image, my mood, what I'm doing, etc.)

I also think it would be cool to be able to switch UI settings between the different looks Mac OS X has had over the years. I like the UI as it is, but my mood changes on occasion, as do other peoples I believe.

Until there is an API properly flushed out in all manner of leaks, stack overflows, etc., and a consistency requirement you won't be seeing that.

Themes on OS 9 and prior were more often than not, BUTTUGLY. They were also hacks and tends to crash the system. They make the UI morphs of OS X look like paradise by comparison.

If people want something interesting they should be screaming for features that can exploit Resolution Independence.

gauchogolfer
Oct 25, 2007, 04:50 PM
every site/review talks about how you recover lost files from leopard using time machine. however, let's say you have 2 drives, one as your OS and one as the time machine. and the main OS drive fails, completely. how does one recover what's on the backup drive? is it bootable? how does that process work?

just curious if anyone has insight on this

I'm fairly certain that the backup made with Time Machine is fully bootable. We'll know for sure tomorrow, happily.

digitalbiker
Oct 25, 2007, 05:03 PM
I'm fairly certain that the backup made with Time Machine is fully bootable. We'll know for sure tomorrow, happily.

I don't think that the Time Machine backup itself is bootable. The procedure will be to boot from the original Leopard disk and then restore from the Time machine backup.

Either way the procedure should be fairly painless and foolproof.

jackc
Oct 25, 2007, 05:31 PM
I don't think that the Time Machine backup itself is bootable. The procedure will be to boot from the original Leopard disk and then restore from the Time machine backup.

Either way the procedure should be fairly painless and foolproof.

That's what I've heard also.

kwfl
Oct 25, 2007, 05:33 PM
One thing I don't see mentioned much is that 10.5 is 64 bit. Vista requires a another version for 64 bit and it's missing many drivers. 10.5 is 64 bit without driver issues (that I've heard of)

i really like that
however, i think they wrote every code of driver again to make 64bit code
do u think they did that?

jk8311
Oct 25, 2007, 05:39 PM
Does anyone know (or have any thoughts) as to why Apple won't allow Time Machine to work with NAS?

I had bought a 2TB server a while back under the assumption the Time Machine would work with it.

What if i have a dedicated mac connected to the NAS (i.e. the NAS would be mounted onto the mac) and then Time Machine on the networked computers in the house would go through that mounted drive.

I assume Time Machine will work with any drive connected to the Airport Extreme...but what's the difference between that and NAS?

thanks,
Joe

Brianstorm91
Oct 25, 2007, 08:37 PM
:confused: They don't really sound too impressed do they.

digitalbiker
Oct 25, 2007, 11:31 PM
Does anyone know (or have any thoughts) as to why Apple won't allow Time Machine to work with NAS?

I had bought a 2TB server a while back under the assumption the Time Machine would work with it.

What if i have a dedicated mac connected to the NAS (i.e. the NAS would be mounted onto the mac) and then Time Machine on the networked computers in the house would go through that mounted drive.

I assume Time Machine will work with any drive connected to the Airport Extreme...but what's the difference between that and NAS?

thanks,
Joe

I don't think Apple is going to purposely exclude Airport Extreme or NAS filesystems for Time Machine Backups. I just think it isn't going to be initially supported because Apple hasn't gotten it bug free yet.

I think eventually Apple will want to use .Mac as a storage site for TM backups as well. Most likely these options will be added with future updates to 10.5.