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teamturbo
Oct 30, 2007, 04:38 PM
Just a thought, but think about it. Every house hold consumer with a TV has a DVD player. Apple should focus more on an item that delivers everything in one set.

The Apple TV would be excellent if it had a High-Def DVD or Blue Ray disk reader along with its hard drive and wireless capabilities while maintaining a reasonably low price. I know Blue Ray can be fairly expensive at the moment, but some drives cost as little as $150 bucks and up to $600. Not sure how much High-Def DVD is, but Apple TV would be an awesome product with these additions. Hell, even a base model with a standard DVD player would be satisfying to me. Just a beautiful Apple TV replacing the ugly junk on the shelf.

Anyone have any thoughts?



peeaanuut
Oct 30, 2007, 05:00 PM
thoughts expressed this morning
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=378464

mr_matalino
Oct 31, 2007, 04:57 PM
Wow. I think I read about a thread a day about ATV and a DVD player...

jeremy.king
Oct 31, 2007, 06:05 PM
They should add DVR capabilities, an HD tuner, DVD-RAM, VHS, and Laser disc player too...:rolleyes:

Tracer
Oct 31, 2007, 06:13 PM
Boy, Laser Disc!

Count Me In. Oh yea and set it up so I don't have to get up from the couch to flip the disc to get to the other side.

8-Track too?

Tracer

blueflame
Oct 31, 2007, 06:58 PM
some patent apple filed for laptop disc drives? the disk lifted up from under the keyboard or something. Kinda like an old discman under the keyboard.
anyway, I thought that idea might somehow be applicable to the apple tv, not making it too much bigger
A

Jasoco
Oct 31, 2007, 09:40 PM
An AppleTV with a DVD player is a Mac mini. And a Mac mini with Leopard is a better AppleTV than an AppleTV.

(Especially with the new FrontRow)

peeaanuut
Oct 31, 2007, 09:45 PM
While that is true, selling the general public to put a full computer into their home theatre mix is a harder sell than most think. It has to be sellable to the common man. Look how the windows media center doesnt sell all that well on it own. Only when its forced on the people will they buy it as part of a package. And still most people dont hook it up to their TV.

I totally agree that the Mini is a better overall package, but I am a computer guy. Its just not going to catch on with the general public as a Home Theatre add on.

stab
Oct 31, 2007, 10:51 PM
ATV 2.0 necessities;

- AM radio
- hotplate for cooking stuff (wait a minute- it already has this...)
- cassette player
- Pong game with paddles.

Now THAT's what I'm talking about.

powerbook911
Nov 1, 2007, 12:58 AM
Yeah Front Row is really impressive now.

Makes me want to replace Apple TV with the low end mini. Furthermore, much more power is there with the mini than an Apple TV has.

I don't know where the road is heading. Of course, the cost of apple tv is a big benefit. Plus, it works with televisions so much easier than a mac mini. macs connected to my TV overscan.

Blazer5913
Nov 1, 2007, 01:07 AM
You guys can say what you will, but I personally agree with the poster. Steve Jobs is all about the "years of high def" and how every person now has a widescreen HDTV in their living rooms... Yet, when we wish to watch a movie on our blown out HDTV's costing us thousands of dollars, we have to settle for standard DVD quality (480p) at the very best? Hell, the movies that Apple sells look terrible if you have even a decent eye... You guys make fun on the poster, but you really think that the video quality of the aTV is good enough for today's day and age. ATV, the current one now, was a product of 5 years ago, when everyone used DVDs, and high def really wasn't an issue. So ripping your DVDs and playing them on standard def tv's would produce great look quality. Today, I want crystal clear picture, I want high bitrates, I WANT HD! And god damnit, the ATV, the way it is now, just can't do it. So this is why I am not buying one. But thats not why I started this reply. It's because all people make fun of the poster for reasoning why an HDDVD or Blu Ray should be put into ATV... In today's day and age, Apple is all about being a step ahead of the game, take for example the iphone and ipod touch, and even its operating system. Yet, you look at a product like the ATV and its stuck in past, 5 years ago. My 2 cents, but I know, they are the RIGHT two cents, no matter what anybody else may say...

Jasoco
Nov 2, 2007, 02:49 PM
Yeah Front Row is really impressive now.

Makes me want to replace Apple TV with the low end mini. Furthermore, much more power is there with the mini than an Apple TV has.

I don't know where the road is heading. Of course, the cost of apple tv is a big benefit. Plus, it works with televisions so much easier than a mac mini. macs connected to my TV overscan.

I feel the same. Especially since I realized that with a Mac mini I could play my HD video (My EyeTV recordings of UniversalHD's Back to the Future 1-3.) without having to hack my AppleTV.

I'll probably sell my AppleTV to my brother or something. Get myself a Mac mini with the next update.

Unless Apple releases a software update for the AppleTV that allows playback of 1080/720 sized videos without stuttering. Which I can't really see. Also, my MacBook loads the files much faster.

Makes me wonder what the future of the AppleTV really is.

jeremy.king
Nov 2, 2007, 03:06 PM
[another useless rant]

Despite the fact you are right, you're completely missing the point of the :apple:TV. It was meant to drive additional revenue from content downloads from the iTunes store. If they put an optical drive in it, they are encouraging you to buy/rent from somewhere else, so where's the value for Apple? Also, now that HD-DVD players have hit the magical $100 price point, Apple shouldn't even bother trying to compete in that space.

Your energy is much better spent pressing Apple to upgrade their content quality to 1080i/p (or 720p at a minimum) and get going with the movie rental downloads rather than trying to explain why we are all wrong for mocking the OP.

gkarris
Nov 2, 2007, 03:08 PM
An AppleTV with a DVD player is a Mac mini. And a Mac mini with Leopard is a better AppleTV than an AppleTV.

(Especially with the new FrontRow)

Not if all you need is the :apple:TV part.

I paid $250 for the :apple:TV (used) as opposed to $600 for a Mini...

powerbook911
Nov 2, 2007, 09:54 PM
However, I've heard people complaining about how the streaming of music works with Front Row in Leopard. Could this be the factor in preventing us from moving to the Mac Mini from Leopard? They say it breaks up a lot or something???

tronic72
Nov 10, 2007, 11:55 AM
I think you are missing the point of the Apple TV. Its way to get content from your Mac or PC to your TV. Why include a drive when every Mac or PC has one??? What is the point of it? If you are using it to ENCODE your DVDs to the Apple TV then it will be sooooo slow. It's only a Pentium M processor running at 1 Ghz. If you are using it to PLAY dvds then why use the Apple TV at all???

The Apple TV is already to expensive for Apple to build. (google it). Adding a DVD will only increase the cost. If you want a DVD player then buy one. They are only $50 and unlike the Aple TV, INCLUDE SURROUND SOUND.

My 2c
:p

Dagless
Nov 10, 2007, 06:39 PM
I'd like a good revision to the ATV line. I'd love to want one, but theres nothing there for me. No RGB scart output? That's so weak Apple. Plus the drastic requirement of more features - streaming radio, iPod connectivity (unless it's already there), iTunes store frontend (at least for Podcasts), connectability with an EyeTV product for TV viewing and recording.

Right now it's just a frontend for media on another Apple Computer. Which is great. But I'd like some content generation plz.

Evangelion
Nov 20, 2007, 08:28 AM
Despite the fact you are right, you're completely missing the point of the :apple:TV. It was meant to drive additional revenue from content downloads from the iTunes store. If they put an optical drive in it, they are encouraging you to buy/rent from somewhere else, so where's the value for Apple?

Well, here's the deal: There are millions of people who have DVD's. There are millions of people who are buying devices to play back those discs. The market for devices that play back iTunes-content is ALOT smaller.

If Apple put a DVD-player in to AppleTV, it would be the ultimate trojan horse. People want to buy DVD-player, so they could buy an AppleTV. And they could use it to play back their DVD's. But they would also notice that they could use it to play back iTunes-content. Those people might not have iTunes-movies at that point, but now they woild have a valid reason to boy some.

And your logic is upside-down. iPod has shown us that ITMS is not meant to earn profits to Apple directly, it's purpose is to drive sales of iPods. Same thing would apply to movies. The purpose of AppleTV is not to drive sales of iTunes-movies, the purpose of iTunes-movies is to drive sales of AppleTV's.

NightStorm
Nov 20, 2007, 09:02 AM
I would not have bought my AppleTV if it included a DVD drive; it's bad enough I had to get one with a hard drive (I stream everything). I think to include a DVD drive would be to miss the entire point of the AppleTV itself. It is meant to be a conduit for bringing iTunes to your living room and nothing more.

spice weasel
Nov 20, 2007, 09:07 AM
The purpose of AppleTV is not to drive sales of iTunes-movies, the purpose of iTunes-movies is to drive sales of AppleTV's.

Exactly, which is why more AppleTVs aren't selling: the movies section of the iTMS pales in comparison to the music offerings. At a time when we are starting to move increasingly towards HD, iTMS movies are lower quality than standard DVD. And they are expensive for what you get. I buy almost all of my DVDs used from the local video rental shop or on massive sale at retailers and pay on the order of $5-$8 apiece. Why would I pay $9.99 for a download that's not as good? Until Apple can offer movies at higher quality (HD would be great, but I understand the infrastructure limitations), come up with a viable rental scheme, put a bit more oomph into the AppleTV, or some other "hooks" to make it catchy and interesting to the common consumer, it will continue to be a hobbyists toy.

As for putting an optical drive in the AppleTV, I could care less. I have an upscaling DVD player now that works very well. I think one of the draws of the AppleTV is that it satisfies the needs of the short attention span media consumer: fire up a movie that you've seen (own) already, get bored, switch to another movie, maybe stream some music, watch YouTube videos, look at your photos, etc. I just don't see the point of putting a single-disc optical drive in a device that's meant to allow you to stream/play all of your media needs. Adding a DVD player will a) just make it a more expensive DVD-playing alternative to the common customer (meaning they will just go buy a cheaper stand-alone player), and b) add little of value to the type of person apt to purchase an AppleTV in the first place. The people who tend to buy them are the people who are into ripping/encoding DVDs, obsessive about the organization of their iTunes library, etc. Adding an HD optical drive is too costly at this time.

I think the AppleTV will take off in popularity eventually. Right now, however, there are too many problems that need to be sorted out first. The HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray war, whether 720p is "true HD" or just good enough, 1080i vs. 1080p, bandwidth for internet delivery of content, DRM schemes, 5.1 surround sound, you name it. Compared to the concerns and know-how of the average consumer (think your parents, for example), AppleTV and similar devices are still pretty cutting edge. So no wonder it hasn't really taken off.

All of this said, I have the cash waiting to buy one as soon as I can get a sense of how likely they are to be updated in the near future.

jeremy.king
Nov 20, 2007, 10:17 AM
If Apple put a DVD-player in to AppleTV, it would be the ultimate trojan horse.


Another MR user once said: a $300 solution to a $30 problem.

The purpose of AppleTV is not to drive sales of iTunes-movies, the purpose of iTunes-movies is to drive sales of AppleTV's.

Allow me to clarify.

Apple, Inc. sells :apple:TV banking on the fact that most customers will then buy (more?) movies from iTMS giving Apple residual profits from additional movies sales. It's well known that the profit margin on the :apple:TV is small and that Apple uses the device as a way to get more users to buy content from iTMS.

Subiklim
Nov 20, 2007, 10:19 AM
I think all iPods should have CD drives. I mean, I have a ton of CDs, why shouldn't I be able to play them easily on my new player without encoding them?!

Evangelion
Nov 20, 2007, 11:20 AM
Another MR user once said: a $300 solution to a $30 problem.

Not really. Consumers would see that ATV offers more than normal DVD-player does. And while you CAN get DVD-player cheaply, better players cost more than $30. And it's still a question of having two devices as opposed to having just one. I would love to replace my DVD-player with ATV. But I can't. If I could replace DVD-player with ATV, ATV would be a lot more appealing product. But as things are right now, it's a product that would add complexity to my setup.

Apple, Inc. sells :apple:TV banking on the fact that most customers will then buy (more?) movies from iTMS giving Apple residual profits from additional movies sales.

That is not the case with iPods and music from iTunes, what makes you think that situation is totally reversed as far as movies and ATV is concerned? Fact of the matter is that ITMS more or less breaks even. ITMS is not about making money for Apple, it's about driving sales of their hardware.

It's well known that the profit margin on the :apple:TV is small and that Apple uses the device as a way to get more users to buy content from iTMS.

The profit-margin on ATV might be smallish for Apple, but it's still A LOT bigger than the margins are in ITMS.

And are the margins on ATS really that small?

Evangelion
Nov 20, 2007, 11:25 AM
I think all iPods should have CD drives. I mean, I have a ton of CDs, why shouldn't I be able to play them easily on my new player without encoding them?!

Well, the thing is that CD-player in iPod would compromise the form-factor. It's supposed to be as portable as possible. ATV does not have that limitation. They COULD make the device a bit bigger without sacrificing anything.

And encoding CD's is simple. Hell, you can do it inside iTunes with next to zero effort! That is not the case with DVD's. I should know, I'm in the process of encoding my DVD's. I can do maybe 2 DVD's a day, and I can't do it in iTunes.

And fact remains that mp3-files and the like have largely supplanted CD's for many users. But that is not the case with DVD's. DVD's are still the king of the hill by a large margin.

lofight
Nov 20, 2007, 11:29 AM
I think it's the meaning op :apple:Tv that you rip all your dvd's to your Mac or Pc and stream all your content from there, it's easier than everytime taking your dvd, for the lazy ones... if they would add an Dvd player it wouldn't be the whole concept of the :apple:Tv, it would be a DVD player one of the hundred with streaming capabilities..

notjustjay
Nov 20, 2007, 11:37 AM
I know it's not going to happen because of DRM concerns, but what one needs to work with an Apple TV is a one-step way to rip a DVD movie into the hard drive or iTunes library, and FAST. Ideally in a way that would preserve everything, e.g. the chapters, menus, audio tracks, subtitles, extras and all that.

Yeah, I know there's Handbrake and them, it's slowly getting better and faster, but it's still not as easy to rip a stack of DVD's as it is to rip a stack of CD's into iTunes (e.g. insert, wait, eject, insert, repeat).

When the technology gets there, I want to rip a shelf-full of DVDs onto a hard drive on a server, and watch any movie I want from any TV in the house using Apple TV's.

(I know it's perfectly possible to do this today, and many of you are, but this needs to be so easy and fast that this how EVERY consumer does it. Only then will this device really take off.)

jeremy.king
Nov 20, 2007, 12:44 PM
That is not the case with iPods and music from iTunes

They have sold 3+ BILLION songs for some reason, you really don't think its the 100+ million iPod owners out there driving most of that? If so, I think you are wrong. Also, remember that the iTMS came out nearly 2 years AFTER the iPod.

but it's still A LOT bigger than the margins are in ITMS.
One word: Volume


And are the margins on ATS really that small?
Yes. (http://www.reuters.com/article/industryNews/idUSN0642476720070606) Keep in mind, this doesn't include any R&D or marketing and packaging costs.

tronic72
Nov 21, 2007, 04:54 AM
[QUOTE=notjustjay;4520840]"insert, wait, eject, insert, repeat"

Um how simple do you want it?

I've got all my DVDs on my Apple TV and I did it while I was working. Handbrake works brilliantly in the background like you said, you just insert, wait and drag into iTunes. A DVD player/burner on the Apple TV wouldn't make this any faster. In fact, due to it's basic specs, ripping on the Apple TV would be horribly slow.

For those that keep requesting the Apple TV have more features, the Apple TV is already "not cheap" and adding an optical/HD drive will only drive the price up further.

Personally I'm quite happy to use the power of my mac for ripping and use the Apple TV for the purpose it was designed; that is a conduit between my TV/Hi-FI and my Mac.

tronic72
Nov 21, 2007, 05:00 AM
ATV 2.0 necessities;

- AM radio
- hotplate for cooking stuff (wait a minute- it already has this...)
- cassette player
- Pong game with paddles.

Now THAT's what I'm talking about.

Picture this.....

We've all done it.....

I'm feverishly reading and posting, trying to find other posts to backup my opinion (which is all it is) and I come across your post.

Ha Bloody Ha.

Amen to that brotha. You just saved me from taking myself to seriously. Thanks for my evening giggle..

Evangelion
Nov 21, 2007, 06:34 AM
They have sold 3+ BILLION songs for some reason, you really don't think its the 100+ million iPod owners out there driving most of that? If so, I think you are wrong. Also, remember that the iTMS came out nearly 2 years AFTER the iPod.

Yup, it did. And yes, it's iPod-owners buying those songs. And remember that for the first few years, iPod wasn't that huge.

One word: Volume

two words: neglible profits. It has been widely reported that Apple does not really earn any money from ITMS as such. The purpose of ITMS is to drive sales of iPods, THAT'S where Apple makes it's money, not the store! Labels take most of the money Apple makes from sales in ITMS, Apple itself only gets few pennies from each song sold, and with that money they need to keep the store up & running. I have seen estimates that Apple takes in about 10 cents for every song sold. So 3 billions songs would equate to about 300 million over the course of the entire existence of ITMS, and from that money they need to pay for the upkeep of the store (servers, personnel, storage, bandwidth etc.).

300 million over the course of 4.5 years? iPods make more than that in one quarter. Really, this is not rocket-science. It doesn't take a genius to see where the money is.

Yes. (http://www.reuters.com/article/industryNews/idUSN0642476720070606) Keep in mind, this doesn't include any R&D or marketing and packaging costs.

Um, they say that it has lower margins than iPods, not that it has low margins as such.

Evangelion
Nov 21, 2007, 07:00 AM
Um how simple do you want it?

I've got all my DVDs on my Apple TV and I did it while I was working. Handbrake works brilliantly in the background like you said, you just insert, wait and drag into iTunes. A DVD player/burner on the Apple TV wouldn't make this any faster.

well, here's the actual process:

- Launch Handbrake
- Insert DVD
- Kill DVD-player that launches automatically
- Select source in handbrake
- Select correct subtitles
- Listen for next two hours as the fans and DVD-player in the computer kicks in as it encodes the video
- Import the video to iTunes
- Go set the metadata right

What about CD's? Pop in the CD, see iTunes fetch track-information automatically, answer yes when iTunes asks about importing the tracks to iTunes, wait 5 minutes as it encodes the disc.

The process is vastly different. I know, I have spent past several days encoding video on Handbrake.

In fact, due to it's basic specs, ripping on the Apple TV would be horribly slow.

Um, I don't think that anyone is wanting to do the ripping on the AppleTV...

For those that keep requesting the Apple TV have more features, the Apple TV is already "not cheap" and adding an optical/HD drive will only drive the price up further.

It's been close to year now, during that time the component-prices have gone down significantly.

Personally I'm quite happy to use the power of my mac for ripping and use the Apple TV for the purpose it was designed; that is a conduit between my TV/Hi-FI and my Mac.

Same here. But fact remains that while it's quite easy to get music on ATV, getting movies in there is considerably harder. Hell, Apple has idiot-proof tools for importing CD's to iTunes (even copyprotected ones), but there are no tools to do the same with DVD's.

MacBoobsPro
Nov 21, 2007, 07:03 AM
Although AppleTV is good it could be freakin great...

AppleTV with DVD drive that can play and rip DVDs right onto the harddrive with a Handbrake like app made and preinstalled by Apple and controlled via iTunes. The ripped movies can then be synced back to iTunes. To stop movie companies pissing and moaning about piracy and all that once a movie is ripped on an AppleTV it could be 'locked' to the iTunes library that ripped it. So it cant be copied to another machine etc or burnt back to a DVD. Much like iTS authorization now.

Just my two cents.

Theres more but I should be working. :D

Roy Hobbs
Nov 21, 2007, 07:10 AM
Just a thought, but think about it. Every house hold consumer with a TV has a DVD player.

This is the exact reason why the Apple TV doesnt have a DVD player built in

peeaanuut
Nov 21, 2007, 10:44 AM
This is the exact reason why the Apple TV doesnt have a DVD player built in


But we are at a time when people will be upgrading those dvd players to either an upconverting, hd-dvd or blu-ray player. I think now would be a good time for Apple to introduce a player that does the trifecta. Just getting a drive in an enclusure would not be too expensive and I would be willing to pay $300 for an add-on that plays all 3 and integrates nicely into the form factor. As much as everyone wants to wish it, digital HD content is not going to be main stream for quite sometime and discs are still going to rule the movie world for quite sometime. Apple could be seen as the great equalizer where you dont have to choose a specific piece of hardware because their box could play all 3 discs, plus cd's as well as digital content.