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mcdj
Nov 3, 2007, 10:16 PM
"It's official" - T3

http://www.t3.co.uk/news/247/communications/mobile_phone/iphone-firmware-update-2



I3eXa
Nov 3, 2007, 10:29 PM
hmm....interesting. But seeing that I just got AppSnap to get installer on my 1.1.1 I'll stick with it for a while. Unless 1.1.2 has GPS, 3G, and MMS, oh and of course copy/paste :rolleyes:

Nagooya
Nov 3, 2007, 10:40 PM
"It's official" - T3

http://www.t3.co.uk/news/247/communications/mobile_phone/iphone-firmware-update-2

Hmm... do you think that could be a PS?

aerospace
Nov 3, 2007, 10:40 PM
they didnt indicate it came with any new apps which would be necessary to get people to upgrade

hidehide
Nov 3, 2007, 10:40 PM
:)
1.1.2 seems to be a useless update :)
I can type all the chinese I want right now, with my unlocked 1.1.1

Apple cant force iPhone user to update. And its just a matter of time that 1.1.2 will be hacked..
Come on, there are like thousands or more hackers working on it. Thats thousands vs one...

Sobe
Nov 3, 2007, 10:42 PM
...some gentle experimentation shows that the TIFF exploit (described over at MacNN) which could be used to jailbreak and hack the 1.1.1 iPhone has been closed, rendering the latest attempts to jailbreak the phone obsolete.

Awfully nice of those hacker fellows to tell everyone where the security gaps are.

anarchron
Nov 3, 2007, 10:53 PM
I wonder what's in the bigger box?

cjmal
Nov 3, 2007, 11:02 PM
Im all for updating my phone if it fixes those damn lines going across my screen.

Bernie-Mac
Nov 3, 2007, 11:15 PM
I wonder what's in the bigger box?

Its for the Uk outlets

MacRumors
Nov 3, 2007, 11:41 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

T3.co.uk claims to have seen the a forthcoming update (http://www.t3.co.uk/news/247/communications/mobile_phone/iphone-firmware-update-2) to the iPhone -- firmware version 1.1.2. According to T3:

First off, there's support for dozens of languages, so if you happen to be a fluent Cantonese speaker, the phone has all the relevant character sets so you can display your language properly.

There's full support for French and German, with special keyboard lay-outs on the ready to tackle accented characters - perfectly understandable, of course, what with the phone heading for launch across the channel this month too.

MacRumors had also independently heard that iPhone Firmware 1.1.2 is destined to arrive upon the European launch of the iPhone later this week. According to these sources, the release will be mainly bug and security related with some European language localizations, and will require yet-unreleased iTunes 7.5 (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/01/itunes-7-5-coming-soon/) to sync.

Our source also mentioned that 3rd party SIM unlock software will be once again broken as well as some 3rd party applications. iToner was specifically mentioned as being broken by the update, though readers should note that Ambrosia has released a free update for every firmware release thus-far.

Readers may remember that the iPhone 1.1.1 update disabled all native 3rd party applications and even "bricked" some iPhones that had undergone certain SIM unlocks, which lead to a somewhat rough public reaction and aftermath (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/09/30/iphone-1-1-1-aftermath/). Nevertheless, workarounds were discovered and methods have once again been developed to jailbreak the iPhone in one step (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2007/10/29/one-click-jailbreaks-for-iphone-and-ipod-touch/).

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/03/iphone-firmware-1-1-2-on-the-way/)

ventro
Nov 3, 2007, 11:44 PM
unlocked/jailbroken iphone owners, heed this warning! Don't press that Update button any time soon! In fact it's probably a good idea to uncheck that "Automatically check for updates" box in your settings!

jokarak
Nov 3, 2007, 11:44 PM
So the cat and mouse game continues...hope people don't take this round of escalations too harshly. As for me, I'm still taking a wait-and-see attitude to the whole iPhone thing...maybe I'll jump on the bandwagon at 2.0

celloman
Nov 3, 2007, 11:48 PM
well thats good...and bad at the same time :rolleyes:

xUKHCx
Nov 3, 2007, 11:48 PM
So basically in about 5.5 days.

macUser2007
Nov 3, 2007, 11:49 PM
Um, what's the purpose of this update? Other than making people who have customized their phone miserable?

Oh, so I can make my menus show up in Cantonese...! Way to go Apple!

How about concentrating on delivering some useful upgrades? Like horizontal email/message input, or mms, or that rumored Internet Radio?

mixel
Nov 3, 2007, 11:50 PM
This is a useful upgrade.. For people who aren't English speakers, which is.. Hell, more than half of the world?

Seems pretty important to me.

mithun914
Nov 3, 2007, 11:52 PM
seems important to me to!

lot of ppl don't find it important because it may not be relative to them, but in reality it is to most of the ppl overseas.

megfilmworks
Nov 3, 2007, 11:56 PM
Great update if we get the international support. Anyone who does business with other countries knows how important it is to have international keyboard capability.

Novaoblivion
Nov 3, 2007, 11:59 PM
I dont know if they are talking about something different but you can enable the international keyboard on 1.1.1 by changing a value in a plist file. I have both English and Japanese keyboards working on mine right now :).

nagromme
Nov 4, 2007, 12:02 AM
And of course, "breaking" apps really means closing security HOLES that those apps relied on.

So I say, break away. A SECURE way to install apps is coming soon enough.

suppose
Nov 4, 2007, 12:02 AM
All I want is flash. (ok, well maybe not all) that is my number one gripe. I remember good ol walt mosberg said it was coming shortly with a software update. But no dice so far.

p0intblank
Nov 4, 2007, 12:07 AM
This time I am NOT updating. I learned my lesson last time by losing my 3rd party apps. :p

MarkMS
Nov 4, 2007, 12:07 AM
And of course, "breaking" apps really means closing security HOLES that those apps relied on.

So I say, break away. A SECURE way to install apps is coming soon enough.

Yep! Just 3 months or so from now.

Whistleway
Nov 4, 2007, 12:08 AM
at this rate there will be atleast one iTunes version every month. sucks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITunes_version_history

daneoni
Nov 4, 2007, 12:09 AM
And of course, "breaking" apps really means closing security HOLES that those apps relied on.

So I say, break away. A SECURE way to install apps is coming soon enough.

Maybe they're already too late. Some HOLES at least the most prominent one can be patched (http://jailbreakme.com/features.html) by one of those apps themselves already...making you have a more SECURE phone than even the factory/virgin versions.

Still...better late than never eh

On another note, with the Tiff bug fixed i honestly have no incentive to upgrade whatsoever if all i'm getting is language and 'bug fixes'

Decrepit
Nov 4, 2007, 12:12 AM
All I want is flash. (ok, well maybe not all) that is my number one gripe. I remember good ol walt mosberg said it was coming shortly with a software update. But no dice so far.

I'd be ok with Flash for now.

Maybe we'll find out what that iTunes Radio is all about with this one as well.

ddma
Nov 4, 2007, 12:19 AM
So, I am a Cantonese unlock iPhone user... then... I am busted. Coz it will render my iPhone unusable "again". So, the update is not good for me "yet".

Well, I know unlock is bad, but they are not coming to where I live at least in a while... So...

pjo
Nov 4, 2007, 12:19 AM
T3.co.uk claims to have seen the a forthcoming update (http://www.t3.co.uk/news/247/communications/mobile_phone/iphone-firmware-update-2) to the iPhone -- firmware version 1.1.2.

I think that the "the" in the previous statement (or the "a") needs to go.

This is a great update somewhat - I'm not to sure how many Cantonese speakers are US (or Europe) citizens/immigrants/expatriates/... and would therefore have iPhones legally ...

mcdj
Nov 4, 2007, 12:23 AM
Its for the Uk outlets
And it comes with an iScone.

riverfreak
Nov 4, 2007, 12:24 AM
I18N?

Surely, you jest. This doesn't count as an "update". This is programming de riguer in the modern world. Ridiculous.

bluebomberman
Nov 4, 2007, 12:24 AM
No love for Mandarin speakers? :rolleyes:

Hey, how come my iPhone has Cantonese support but my Mac doesn't? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

exigentsky
Nov 4, 2007, 12:39 AM
So the cat and mouse game continues...hope people don't take this round of escalations too harshly. As for me, I'm still taking a wait-and-see attitude to the whole iPhone thing...maybe I'll jump on the bandwagon at 2.0

No! People should take it harshly! They should be outraged! They should complain as if the world is ending and the sky is falling! Apple and AT&T need to be given limits - they need to get the message or have it smashed into their faces.

It is absurd what we cannot do with our own purchase. Currently, Apple is selling a screwdriver that zaps you every time you want to use it on a different screw than what they say you should. They need to understand that consumers won't be good sheep and let their rights slip away. The DRM fiasco where songs are owned but only so much as the company lets you has been ridiculous and painful enough. Having to buy your song twice if you use it as a ringtone fueled the flames. Making updates with the express purpose of destroying what we have found useful is bad enough. We should not tolerate more abuse and against overwhelming negative PR, Apple and AT&T will have to respect us. That the industry has always spit on its customers is no comfort to me and it is time for change.

cheunghy
Nov 4, 2007, 12:44 AM
Mmm... I am still waiting for an official launch in Hong Kong (We speak Cantonese here!).

I guess... at least after Japan.

tom5304
Nov 4, 2007, 01:27 AM
I would really appreciate some bug fixes:

1. Way too many Safari crashes.

2. The "Play" arrow will spontaneously come on while I'm browsing on Safari, and it sucks up battery life. I have to manually switch back to the iPod, turn on a song, and then turn it off to ge the blue arrow to stop showing "Play." This is a known bug, Apple. Fix it!

dguisinger
Nov 4, 2007, 01:29 AM
No! People should take it harshly! They should be outraged! They should complain as if the world is ending and the sky is falling! Apple and AT&T need to be given limits - they need to get the message or have it smashed into their faces.

It is absurd what we cannot do with our own purchase. Currently, Apple is selling a screwdriver that zaps you every time you want to use it on a different screw than what they say you should. They need to understand that consumers won't be good sheep and let their rights slip away. The DRM fiasco where songs are owned but only so much as the company lets you has been ridiculous and painful enough. Having to buy your song twice if you use it as a ringtone fueled the flames. Making updates with the express purpose of destroying what we have found useful is bad enough. We should not tolerate more abuse and against overwhelming negative PR, Apple and AT&T will have to respect us. That the industry has always spit on its customers is no comfort to me and it is time for change.

Huh
last time i checked i can do whatever I want with my phone
I can choose to upgrade it, I can choose not to
I can choose to hack it, I can choose not to
Most cell phones never get upgrades, the original factory installed firmware in June would work just fine for most things.

Just because apple releases a new update doesn't mean you have to install it; your hacks were never supported to begin with. And someone will make them work likely in the near future, so quit having a cow and leave it up to the folks who do the real hacking to find a way to make things work with the new version.

dguisinger
Nov 4, 2007, 01:31 AM
I would really appreciate some bug fixes:

1. Way too many Safari crashes.

2. The "Play" arrow will spontaneously come on while I'm browsing on Safari, and it sucks up battery life. I have to manually switch back to the iPod, turn on a song, and then turn it off to ge the blue arrow to stop showing "Play." This is a known bug, Apple. Fix it!

Strange bug, never seen that one. I have had it system level lockup with the page oriented one way and the system bar going vertical along the side......now that was weird...

I agree though, wtf is up with safari, the browser craps out way too often. how on earth are they using the same desktop safari engine? my desktop safari doesn't crap out

wannger27
Nov 4, 2007, 01:45 AM
I wonder why they mention Chinese character sets as a new feature. The iPhone has been able to display Chinese in email, text messages, Safari, etc. since day 1. Weird.

mac17
Nov 4, 2007, 01:46 AM
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/crap/uk-iphone-launching-with-112-firmware-jailbreak-broken-318611.php

I hope those arent the only updates. We need Flash, mms and video recording as well as voice, if they did this and apple didnt upgrade it for a year Id still be happy.

carbonmotion
Nov 4, 2007, 01:49 AM
cantonese is a dialect of putonghua... its written form is simplified or traditional chinese. whomever gave that tip is a moron.

Jade Cambell
Nov 4, 2007, 01:52 AM
I had some 3rd party apps installed via jailbreakme.com, but upon hearing this news, I promptly restored my phone, as I like to stay safely, legally, and securely up to date.

Luis
Nov 4, 2007, 01:55 AM
I had some 3rd party apps installed via jailbreakme.com, but upon hearing this news, I promptly restored my phone, as I like to stay safely, legally, and securely up to date.

Umm, updating wouldn't have done anything bad to you if you had left the third party apps there, they would just have gotten over-written.

And as far as hacking goes, this update will be broken, just as all others, it is just a matter of time. As long as iTunes connects to the phone, then it will be possible to hack it.

Jade Cambell
Nov 4, 2007, 01:10 AM
I am all for Apple finding a way to prevent people from hacking the phone. I get excited every time there's talk of phones getting "bricked" because the people who hacked the phone had it coming. Apple has every right to fight off hackers with new updates, and I give them my full support in their quest to screw over anyone who tries to mess with their product.

Luis
Nov 4, 2007, 01:15 AM
I am all for Apple finding a way to prevent people from hacking the phone. I get excited every time there's talk of phones getting "bricked" because the people who hacked the phone had it coming. Apple has every right to fight off hackers with new updates, and I give them my full support in their quest to screw over anyone who tries to mess with their product.

What have the people who hacked their phones done to you?

I don't get why people like you bash hackers, if you don't agree with them, then ignore them! Just leave the people who hack their phones alone, it is their choice and it that choice does not affect you in any way! So why the hate?

cheunghy
Nov 4, 2007, 01:17 AM
cantonese is a dialect of putonghua... its written form is simplified or traditional chinese. whomever gave that tip is a moron.

Not really.

Cantonese is the dialect we speak in the Guangdong Province.
However, Putonghua was somehow derived from Manchurian. (I am not going to explain in detail here...)
Therefore, strictly speaking, Cantonese is not a dialect of Putonghua.

Whether we write Simplified or Traditional Chinese doesn't depend on which language we speak. In Hong Kong and Macau, we speak Cantonese but we write in Traditional Chinese (because both were colonies by the time Simplified Chinese was 'invented'). However, in the rest of the Guangdong Province, people mainly speak Cantonese but they write in Simplified Chinese.

Ya, I know it's quite complicated.

foidulus
Nov 4, 2007, 01:23 AM
:)
1.1.2 seems to be a useless update :)
I can type all the chinese I want right now, with my unlocked 1.1.1

Apple cant force iPhone user to update. And its just a matter of time that 1.1.2 will be hacked..
Come on, there are like thousands or more hackers working on it. Thats thousands vs one...

How do you get the chinese keyboard to come up? Is Korean also available?

Sobe
Nov 4, 2007, 01:26 AM
What have the people who hacked their phones done to you?

I don't get why people like you bash hackers, if you don't agree with them, then ignore them! Just leave the people who hack their phones alone, it is their choice and it that choice does not affect you in any way! So why the hate?

You're kidding right?

How about teaching thousands of people how to exploit security holes in the iPhone.

Yeah no impact on anyone!

chr1s60
Nov 4, 2007, 01:30 AM
I will not install 1.1.2 if it only gives an international keyboard and languages. I will also be pretty mad if Apple breaks iToner again. I don't see what their issue is with it. iToner doesn't jailbreak the phone, it only messes with the user area, leave it alone. I won't update my phone again until Apple gives me something worthwhile like a new app or something.

panamajack
Nov 4, 2007, 01:36 AM
I dont know if they are talking about something different but you can enable the international keyboard on 1.1.1 by changing a value in a plist file. I have both English and Japanese keyboards working on mine right now :).

Yeah, but that's it ! Without a hack and adding Open Vanilla, I can't input Chinese script, which is why I'm waiting to buy a Touch.

Anyways, the article is only talking about character sets. The iPhone can already show two sets of Chinese characters (simplified and traditional), Hong Kong/ Cantonese computer users use an additional character set including some characters not found in the Mandarin character sets.

Inputting those same characters still isn't available natively, but I'm sure is soon on the horizon if they really want to sell iPhones in the Chinese speaking world.

ellsworth
Nov 4, 2007, 01:38 AM
We all learned are lesson from upgrading to 1.1.1. Lesson learned ;)

moki
Nov 4, 2007, 01:47 AM
Our source also mentioned that 3rd party SIM unlock software will be once again broken as well as some 3rd party applications. iToner was specifically mentioned as being broken by the update, though readers should note that Ambrosia has released a free update for every firmware release thus-far..

Wonderful...

Sigh. Well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see what they did this time around... I guess I'm not paranoid, they really are out to get us. ;)

panamajack
Nov 4, 2007, 01:47 AM
cantonese is a dialect of putonghua... its written form is simplified or traditional chinese. whomever gave that tip is a moron.

Actually before you call people morons, you should know that Cantonese, being a much older Chinese dialect (putonghua/Mandarin is just another dialect too, designed to be a standardized form of the Beijing dialect for imperial bureaucrats around 900 years ago) than Mandarin has dozens of characters not found in Mandarin (simplifed or traditional) character sets. Therefore they use their own.

Check the Traditional Chinese Big 5 HKSCS in View -> Text Encoding in your favourite web browser.

I can't wait until Unicode has taken over completely, making updates like this utterly unecessary.

THE JUICEMAN
Nov 4, 2007, 01:52 AM
I would really appreciate some bug fixes:

1. Way too many Safari crashes.

2. The "Play" arrow will spontaneously come on while I'm browsing on Safari, and it sucks up battery life. I have to manually switch back to the iPod, turn on a song, and then turn it off to ge the blue arrow to stop showing "Play." This is a known bug, Apple. Fix it!

I've had this bug too. It is pretty annoying. This may be a dumb question but oh well......Anybody know of a way to get ringtones without jailbreaking and/or paying Apple more $$??

moki
Nov 4, 2007, 01:57 AM
I would really appreciate some bug fixes:

1. Way too many Safari crashes.

2. The "Play" arrow will spontaneously come on while I'm browsing on Safari, and it sucks up battery life. I have to manually switch back to the iPod, turn on a song, and then turn it off to ge the blue arrow to stop showing "Play." This is a known bug, Apple. Fix it!

shhhhhhhhh. They are too busy breaking iToner. :)

JosiahPB
Nov 4, 2007, 02:19 AM
No Spanish?? ¡Venga, hombre!

Zuwxiv
Nov 4, 2007, 02:36 AM
You're kidding right?

How about teaching thousands of people how to exploit security holes in the iPhone.

Yeah no impact on anyone!

Knowledge isn't dangerous... if anything, it's ignorance that should be feared.

I mean, what if you were to take something prone to security holes - an internet browser. And make it available to everyone! Anyone could find and see the vulnerabilities, and a community of people would be dedicated to teaching others about those vulnerabilities. How awful! How horrible! How... Secure. Welcome to Firefox and the future of open source. Using Internet Explorer is like asking for malware.

Same thing goes for operating systems. Ever hear of Linux? :P

Everything is going to have some vulnerability, some security hole. And it's only a matter of time before someone finds it. So honestly, which would you rather have? Thousands of people (well, hundreds of thousands actually) knowing about the exploits, or just a handful who are really determined?

Keep in mind, 99% of people who are exploiting these security holes are harmless or beneficial, helping to make new applications or just supporting new programs. Only a tiny, tiny minority would actually attempt to cause damage with these by creating viruses, etc. And this minority can be very, very determined.

So by "teaching thousands of people how to exploit security holes in the iPhone," you actually guarantee a greater level of security, because the security holes aren't just secrets used by people to create a virus - they're used by many people to help the user, and to make more out of the product they bought.

As for your sarcastic "Yeah, no impact on anyone!"... I couldn't agree more. It has a huge impact on many people - like me, who get much more use out of their phone now. :) I paid 600 bucks for it (Yeah, I was one of those fools), why shouldn't I get to use it however I want? I'm not holding Apple responsible if I break it. Their warrantee doesn't cover this, and that's understandable. I just want to use it how I want, and I'll be responsible for that.


This comes from someone who has attended the largest hacker conference in the world (Defcon) - which is full of nice people who share an interest of making things work better, in more ways than originally intended or limited to.

Edit: Erm... Just remember that if you go to Defcon, that 1% really starts to add up when you have a few thousand people... Better keep wifi off. ;)

sweetice2007
Nov 4, 2007, 02:38 AM
its official the European phones will be despatched with the 1.1.2 firmware just read it in google alerts.boasts additional languages and package for accessing the cloud hotspots... And it begins again ... Not much of a thing for me to update mine tho.. Still happywith 1.0.2

breal8406
Nov 4, 2007, 02:47 AM
I want a better way to manage my ToDo's on iPhone!

pogwilson@ntlwo
Nov 4, 2007, 03:03 AM
I want a better way to manage my ToDo's on iPhone!

Okay - Leopard's out. If this update doesn't give us proper To Dos and Notes support and improve iCal syncing (the three weakest aspects of the iPhone for my needs) then it's another missed opportunity (at best). Here's hoping Apple are doing more than playing cat and mouse this time. :rolleyes:

Sobe
Nov 4, 2007, 03:29 AM
Knowledge isn't dangerous... if anything, it's ignorance that should be feared.

I mean, what if you were to take something prone to security holes - an internet browser. And make it available to everyone! Anyone could find and see the vulnerabilities, and a community of people would be dedicated to teaching others about those vulnerabilities. How awful! How horrible! How... Secure. Welcome to Firefox and the future of open source. Using Internet Explorer is like asking for malware.

Same thing goes for operating systems. Ever hear of Linux? :P

Everything is going to have some vulnerability, some security hole. And it's only a matter of time before someone finds it. So honestly, which would you rather have? Thousands of people (well, hundreds of thousands actually) knowing about the exploits, or just a handful who are really determined?

Keep in mind, 99% of people who are exploiting these security holes are harmless or beneficial, helping to make new applications or just supporting new programs. Only a tiny, tiny minority would actually attempt to cause damage with these by creating viruses, etc. And this minority can be very, very determined.

So by "teaching thousands of people how to exploit security holes in the iPhone," you actually guarantee a greater level of security, because the security holes aren't just secrets used by people to create a virus - they're used by many people to help the user, and to make more out of the product they bought.

As for your sarcastic "Yeah, no impact on anyone!"... I couldn't agree more. It has a huge impact on many people - like me, who get much more use out of their phone now. :) I paid 600 bucks for it (Yeah, I was one of those fools), why shouldn't I get to use it however I want? I'm not holding Apple responsible if I break it. Their warrantee doesn't cover this, and that's understandable. I just want to use it how I want, and I'll be responsible for that.


This comes from someone who has attended the largest hacker conference in the world (Defcon) - which is full of nice people who share an interest of making things work better, in more ways than originally intended or limited to.

Edit: Erm... Just remember that if you go to Defcon, that 1% really starts to add up when you have a few thousand people... Better keep wifi off. ;)

Knowledge isn't dangerous? Knowledge isn't automatically dangerous, no.

Knowledge in the hands of people who like to harm, annoy, harass, or inconvenience people?

DANGEROUS!

This is so self evident, there really is no argument needed.

It is one thing to point out flaws.

That's fine and I am all for it.

It is entirely another to hand out instructions on how to actually exploit the security flaws.

It's sort of like why on shows like, say, Mythbusters, when they make some crazy thing like exploding pants they leave out ingredients so some crazy people don't go duplicating their efforts.

And no I am not comparing a TIFF exploit to explosives.

The process is my point rather than the specific thing being shown.

So to recap:

Finding security holes and notifying the world about them: GOOD.

Putting up detailed instructions on how to exploit security holes so anyone with an internet connection can access it: BAD.

koobcamuk
Nov 4, 2007, 05:06 AM
I dont know if they are talking about something different but you can enable the international keyboard on 1.1.1 by changing a value in a plist file. I have both English and Japanese keyboards working on mine right now :).

Ditto. All I need. I am not good enough at Japanese yet to have the menus displayed in Japanese. I'll stick with 1.1.1 until iPhoneSIMFREE is known to work, or something to that effect.

zedsdead
Nov 4, 2007, 05:20 AM
What would be nice: Fixing the damn SAFARI/IPOD related crashes! It is ridiculous that this has not been addressed yet. When listening to music and surfing the net, the Phone will crash, without fail eventually.

Since this is a 0.0.1 update, there should be no new Apps coming. Do not expect anything substantial at all.

Project
Nov 4, 2007, 05:28 AM
Id be surprised if we ever see MMS.

I get the feeling MMS is the new floppy disk (iMac)

boss1
Nov 4, 2007, 05:29 AM
Well it looks like we're going back go "sonar" .

BTW I really don't think a lot of speculation has gone into the fact that this iTunes release isn't 7.43 (usual bug fixes etc).

Rather this is 7.5 . I wonder if that means Apple's managed to keep a tight lid on major feature.

JC4
Nov 4, 2007, 06:32 AM
What would be nice: Fixing the damn SAFARI/IPOD related crashes! It is ridiculous that this has not been addressed yet. When listening to music and surfing the net, the Phone will crash, without fail eventually.

Since this is a 0.0.1 update, there should be no new Apps coming. Do not expect anything substantial at all.

Ditto. Why is apple spending more time killing 3rd party apps than fixing their own? On top of the original bugs, 1.1.1 introduced more crashes and lags that weren't there originally. :rolleyes:

Oh, we did get the purple button somewhere along the way. Which I personally have no use for.

Apple: priorities should be Fix. New features(FLASH). Then, stopping 3rd party apps. Please try thinking of your customers, first!

JohnC

pale9
Nov 4, 2007, 06:57 AM
i wonder how many idiots will once again install this so called update to then find out they were shafted once again....

Steve Jobs=God
Nov 4, 2007, 06:59 AM
So if UK iPhones are going to be shipped with 1.1.2 are already installed, wouldn't that mean that Apple have already finished working on the update?

paja
Nov 4, 2007, 07:06 AM
I have no need for these storage hogging languages. Will Apple give users an option not to install them?

Hurry up with that SDK, the phone is getting a little stale.

Project
Nov 4, 2007, 07:14 AM
Ditto. Why is apple spending more time killing 3rd party apps than fixing their own? On top of the original bugs, 1.1.1 introduced more crashes and lags that weren't there originally. :rolleyes:

Oh, we did get the purple button somewhere along the way. Which I personally have no use for.

Apple: priorities should be Fix. New features(FLASH). Then, stopping 3rd party apps. Please try thinking of your customers, first!

JohnC

Quite a silly post.

By closing the TIFF exploit which breaks the current hack, Apple are fixing their own (Safari)

macintel4me
Nov 4, 2007, 07:16 AM
It will be such a relief to have a native Apple-supported iPhone / iPod Touch SDK available. Until then...the hacks for the hacks continue......

Swift
Nov 4, 2007, 07:53 AM
The latest "jailbreak" is reportedly due to someone finding a way to get root by employing a malformed TIFF to induce a buffer overflow. That's called a hack, and if you can use it to install an app, then others can use it for other, bad things. Apple has no choice, in fact, they have an obligation to close that security hole.

The SDK, the authorized way of adding apps, is now coming, and those who want applications on their iPhones now have a legal way to look forward to.

All those who have changed the firmware to use the iPhone with other carriers have the clear choice: don't upgrade.

Dagless
Nov 4, 2007, 08:04 AM
I don't see what the big deal is, seeing that in a couple of months Apple will open the iPhone up to 3rd party apps.

I'd rather sit back with a completely "road legal" iPhone and not risk bricking it and waiting for the SDK to be released.

icecone
Nov 4, 2007, 08:16 AM
What the hell?
The iPhone displays Cantonese???
Cantonese is a spoken language but not written. And the old iPhones can just display traditional Chinese well. I hope I can just type traditional Chinese on it with the UK iphones:D

guzhogi
Nov 4, 2007, 08:17 AM
This is a useful upgrade.. For people who aren't English speakers, which is.. Hell, more than half of the world?

Seems pretty important to me.

Very true. Americans seem to think that they're the most important people in the world. That reminds me of a joke:
Q. How many Americans does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A. None. They just hold the light bulb up and wait for the world to revolve around them.

lanray
Nov 4, 2007, 08:19 AM
Apple will need to "bait the hook", so to speak, this time around, if they want anyone to upgrade. Sure, a good chunk of folks will just upgrade because that's what they do (I fall into this category). There's a lot of people, though, who really like 3rd party apps, etc., who won't unless there's a nice carrot dangling in front, like notes syncing, or radio, or better mail syncing. Can't say I blame them. Hopefully Apple listens up and adds something more to this than just bug and security fixes.

bbyrdhouse
Nov 4, 2007, 08:23 AM
I was an early Jailbreaker but when 1.1.1. came out I thought that it would only effect those who had unlocked the sim card, but like everybody else I found out that I could not use AppTapp or any of the other cool apps for iPhone.
I waited and waited until finally there was a way to jailbreak the iPhone again. And now I can enjoy all of those apps again.

I will not be so stupid this time around. I am going to wait and let everyone else be the guinea pigs this time.

twoodcc
Nov 4, 2007, 08:25 AM
wow. so they are breaking the unlocks again. i wonder how long they'll continue to do this?

zwida
Nov 4, 2007, 08:30 AM
wow. so they are breaking the unlocks again. i wonder how long they'll continue to do this?

Forever, I'd guess.

Stella
Nov 4, 2007, 08:34 AM
The cat and mouse game continues.

Even when Apple do release the SDK, the unlocking cat and mouse game will still continue.

Apple and the hackers will be in this for the long term...until Apple choose to sell unlocked versions.

Apple could get more aggressive, i.e., in order to sync with iTunes you must have firmware 1.1.2.

emotion
Nov 4, 2007, 08:37 AM
Apple will need to "bait the hook", so to speak, this time around, if they want anyone to upgrade. Sure, a good chunk of folks will just upgrade because that's what they do (I fall into this category). There's a lot of people, though, who really like 3rd party apps, etc., who won't unless there's a nice carrot dangling in front, like notes syncing, or radio, or better mail syncing. Can't say I blame them. Hopefully Apple listens up and adds something more to this than just bug and security fixes.


Just make sure you trust every site with TIFFs on it that you browse to ok?

Apple has an obligation to make their software secure. I expect that, and so should all Apple users.

It is a shame that it stops a way of utilising the phone in a different way but that is just the way it goes. The SDK is around the corner, as is a more sustainable way of having 3rd party apps on the phone (that hopefully aren't running as root!)

I wonder if this version is exploitable? And in what time period. I would certainly find a native and secure (and updatable) SSH clinet very very useful in my line of work.

I'd love to see a proper keychain implemented on there too, Apple.....but I digress.

jonny
Nov 4, 2007, 08:44 AM
I am all for Apple finding a way to prevent people from hacking the phone. I get excited every time there's talk of phones getting "bricked" because the people who hacked the phone had it coming. Apple has every right to fight off hackers with new updates, and I give them my full support in their quest to screw over anyone who tries to mess with their product.

You are, to put it mildly, an Idiot. :)

izzle22
Nov 4, 2007, 08:55 AM
Very true. Americans seem to think that they're the most important people in the world. That reminds me of a joke:
Q. How many Americans does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A. None. They just hold the light bulb up and wait for the world to revolve around them.

Hmmmm, We(Americans) aren't the most important people in the world???;) And yes that's exactly how I change my light bulbs.

emotion
Nov 4, 2007, 08:58 AM
Hmmmm, We(Americans) aren't the most important people in the world???;)

I though it was the English? I mean you all speak our language (well, in a manner of speaking of course).

:D:D

rush0
Nov 4, 2007, 09:04 AM
All Apple has to do to ensure people update, is install some cool new programs, copy/paste, or silly stuff. If its minor bug fixes, people are just gonna stick to 1.1

sblasl
Nov 4, 2007, 09:05 AM
It's called iTunes 7.5.

Apple will need to "bait the hook", so to speak, this time around, if they want anyone to upgrade.

Why do you think it is OK to call someone a name who is expressing an opinion.

I actually agree with Jade Cambell, the time and effort that Apple is having to deploy to battle the hackers is taking away from the rest of us. We might have seen new applications & features already.

You are, to put it mildly, an Idiot. :)

cbrain
Nov 4, 2007, 09:22 AM
Hi,

1.1.2 will probably fix the TIFF bug in Safari.

I would think that an update adding new features would be a 1.2 update.

Hopefully there will be an update for the iPod Touch fixing the "bug" that prevents you from adding calender entries.

Thanks for Reading.

Luis
Nov 4, 2007, 09:27 AM
You're kidding right?

No i'm not.

How about teaching thousands of people how to exploit security holes in the iPhone.

How about teaching thousands of people how to exploit security holes in the iPhone and after that patch it for them! I'm sure you know that AppSnapp actually patches the TIFF expoit after it installs, so it even makes you phone more secure!

Oh, and in any case you can also change your firmware password if you want, just to be extra secure!

Yeah no impact on anyone!

Not if you do it the correct way.

Compile 'em all
Nov 4, 2007, 09:37 AM
Apple could get more aggressive, i.e., in order to sync with iTunes you must have firmware 1.1.2.

This doesn't mean anything, I will simply not update to the newest iTunes. I personally believe once Orange starts selling unlocked iPhones in France, the game is over for Apple. Copy locktables off these unlocked phones, dump them onto hacked iPhones and you have thousands of clones that can be updated with no problems. Apple didn't break intentionally anySIM 1.0.2 unlocks anyway, and is highly probable that anySIM 1.1.1 will work for 1.1.2 me thinks.

Telp
Nov 4, 2007, 09:44 AM
This doesn't mean anything, I will simply not update to the newest iTunes. I personally believe once Orange starts selling unlocked iPhones in France, the game is over for Apple. Copy locktables off these unlocked phones, dump them onto hacked iPhones and you have thousands of clones that can be updated with no problems. Apple didn't break intentionally anySIM 1.0.2 unlocks anyway, and is highly probable that anySIM 1.1.1 will work for 1.1.2 me thinks.

It means a lot. If you cant sync with itunes without the newest firmware...Then it doesnt matter if you dont update to the newest itunes...

Stella
Nov 4, 2007, 09:44 AM
This doesn't mean anything, I will simply not update to the newest iTunes. I personally believe once Orange starts selling unlocked iPhones in France, the game is over for Apple. Copy locktables off these unlocked phones, dump them onto hacked iPhones and you have thousands of clones that can be updated with no problems. Apple didn't break intentionally anySIM 1.0.2 unlocks anyway, and is highly probable that anySIM 1.1.1 will work for 1.1.2 me thinks.

yes, you don't have to upgrade. A lot of people like being on the bleeding edge too. Apple could go further - in order to use iTMS you must have the latest version of iTunes - that sort of thing. Yes, a lot of people just won't bother upgrading, but Apple can start to make people's lives difficult.

The French iPhone will be interesting - how do Apple stop non French consumers getting their hands on the unlocked French version? Maybe the French iPhone is stuck using the French language, for example. ( Personally, I'm all for an unlocked iPhone - even if Apple charges a bit more ).

Engadget / Gizmo ( forgotten which ) has confirmed SIM unlocking apps are broken using v1.1.2.

SolRayz
Nov 4, 2007, 09:47 AM
Personally I think Apple has a lot of nerve to continue harassing us in regards to our ringtones. If its not all about profits, why in gods name do they care. Even Steve Wozniak stated that we should be able add our own ringtones unhindered. To put it simply, I see it as all about profits, whether it comes from the RIAA or Apple's persistence in luring us into there damn iTunes store. I applaud Ambrosia, plz keep up the good work as you helping me make up for Apple's lack of decent ringtones on our iPhones. I am not updating, nor at this point do I hear of any specific reason to update, sorry Apple but my phone is working fine.

Don't fix what ain't broke...

kenaustus
Nov 4, 2007, 09:59 AM
It's odd that no one has made remarks that maybe OS X on the iPhone had a lot of patches & hacks that have to be taken care of - and that is what the upgrades are doing - a group at a time. If 3rd party apps work Apple really isn't going to care as it just helps sell more units. They are not, however, going to go out of their way to ensure all of these apps work with every update and that is understandable.

So between now and when the SDK is released there will probably be a lot more upgrades, all moving towards v.1.2 at the time the SDK is released. At that time current developers will be facing a problem of ensuring that their apps work under 1.2 as well as moving the apps to the SDK based level.

THAT's going to be a rather confusing time for those with a handful of 3rd party apps on their iPhones.

As for unlocking the iPhone for other carriers, Apple is going to continue to play the cat & mouse game at a level that is called for under their contract with ATT. If you want to play the game that's up to you, but don't moan and complain like a little kid - you know the rules when you spent your money.

gmanrique
Nov 4, 2007, 10:00 AM
It seems like a critical update since with the current version a single click on a malicious website could give away all the personal info stored in your iPhone.

:)
1.1.2 seems to be a useless update :)
I can type all the chinese I want right now, with my unlocked 1.1.1

Apple cant force iPhone user to update. And its just a matter of time that 1.1.2 will be hacked..
Come on, there are like thousands or more hackers working on it. Thats thousands vs one...

skir0987
Nov 4, 2007, 10:02 AM
I assume that this is an update for the iPod Touch also... :(
I think I am going to best buy sometime around Friday next week to pick one up... will the ones in the US have the update by then? I hope not, because I really want the 3rd party apps.

-Shep

smacman
Nov 4, 2007, 11:18 AM
Does anyone else think that 1.1.2 might only be for European iPhones? When you think about it, most other devices (Blackberry, Nokia, Motorola) have localized firmware depending on what region / cell provider you are with.

MacTheSpoon
Nov 4, 2007, 11:19 AM
I almost forgot, but Flash support is supposed to be added, eventually. It would be nice if they did it before Christmas.

emotion
Nov 4, 2007, 11:26 AM
Does anyone else think that 1.1.2 might only be for European iPhones?

Not when 1.1.1 contains a glaring security hole in Safari. You can go to a website with a carefully crafted TIFF image and get 'rooted'. This is something all iPhone users should want fixed.

It's up to individual users if they want to hold off though. They might want to retain access to the phone via that route and keep 1.1.1 (or retain the hack applied). Fair enough if they do, that's their choice.

Compile 'em all
Nov 4, 2007, 11:34 AM
Engadget / Gizmo ( forgotten which ) has confirmed SIM unlocking apps are broken using v1.1.2.

No, they didn't.

Telp
Nov 4, 2007, 11:34 AM
Not when 1.1.1 contains a glaring security hole in Safari. You can go to a website with a carefully crafted TIFF image and get 'rooted'. This is something all iPhone users should want fixed.

It's up to individual users if they want to hold off though. They might want to retain access to the phone via that route and keep 1.1.1 (or retain the hack applied). Fair enough if they do, that's their choice.

Keep in mind that the hack does fix the TIFF exploit after it gains access (i think)

No, they didn't.
Yes they did.

imwoblin
Nov 4, 2007, 11:36 AM
I think Apple is struggling with this whole concept of locking down the iPhone and continuing its policy of control over the entire platform. On the one hand you have Steve who seems to like everything locked down tight, and then you have the marketing types,who want world domination by selling lots and lots of phones. I think for the first time ever, the marketing end has forced Steve's hand. In order to sell more phones, they have to listen to what people want, ie suddenly reversing trend and opening up 3rd party apps in Feb. Sooner or later they will realize that in order to please its customers (and sell more phones), they will eventually have to listen to the people.

Telp
Nov 4, 2007, 11:39 AM
I think Apple is struggling with this whole concept of locking down the iPhone and continuing its policy of control over the entire platform. On the one hand you have Steve who seems to like everything locked down tight, and then you have the marketing types,who want world domination by selling lots and lots of phones. I think for the first time ever, the marketing end has forced Steve's hand. In order to sell more phones, they have to listen to what people want, ie suddenly reversing trend and opening up 3rd party apps in Feb. Sooner or later they will realize that in order to please its customers (and sell more phones), they will eventually have to listen to the people.

Steve said from the beginning that there would be 3rd party apps coming.

Compile 'em all
Nov 4, 2007, 11:43 AM
Yes they did.

Link?

Telp
Nov 4, 2007, 11:44 AM
Link?

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/crap/uk-iphone-launching-with-112-firmware-jailbreak-broken-318611.php

imwoblin
Nov 4, 2007, 11:45 AM
Steve said from the beginning that there would be 3rd party apps coming.

I remember Steve saying that " Apple may open the iPhone up to 3rd party apps" and then decided to go with web apps instead, to keep the system locked down tight. He said it would keep the bad guys from exploiting the operating system.

Compile 'em all
Nov 4, 2007, 11:47 AM
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/crap/uk-iphone-launching-with-112-firmware-jailbreak-broken-318611.php

This only have to do with JAILBREAKING (using jailbreakme) not UNLOCKING. And this is because jailbreakme relies on the TIFF exploit, which was patched in 1.1.2. The TIFF exploit has nothing to do with unlocking nor has anything to do with the jailbreaking technique used in iNdepedence.

So..No, no one has confirmed that unlocking is broken on 1.1.2.

Telp
Nov 4, 2007, 11:52 AM
I remember Steve saying that " Apple may open the iPhone up to 3rd party apps" and then decided to go with web apps instead, to keep the system locked down tight. He said it would keep the bad guys from exploiting the operating system.

And yet they are releasing an SDK. The webapps are only there to take our minds off the SDK till it is released. Thats why the SDK was announced like right after the webapps were.
This only have to do with JAILBREAKING (using jailbreakme) not UNLOCKING. And this is because jailbreakme relies on the TIFF exploit, which was patched in 1.1.2. The TIFF exploit has nothing to do with unlocking nor has anything to do with the jailbreaking technique used in iNdepedence.

So..No, no one has confirmed that unlocking is broken on 1.1.2.

Well it seems to go without saying that it would stop that too. Just my opinion, not trying to argue with you.

emotion
Nov 4, 2007, 12:00 PM
Keep in mind that the hack does fix the TIFF exploit after it gains access (i think)

I know. That is the implication in my post. 1.1.2 fixed that particular glaring security hole.

btw. @ Compile em all

If you cannot jailbreak, you cannot unlock yes? The unlocking procedure requires a 3rd party app on the iPhone does it not?

Telp
Nov 4, 2007, 12:07 PM
I know. That is the implication in my post. 1.1.2 fixed that particular glaring security hole.

Right, and im saying that hacking your iPhone fixes it too, therefore, if the switch to 1.1.2 only fixes that, theres no incentive.

emotion
Nov 4, 2007, 12:09 PM
Right, and im saying that hacking your iPhone fixes it too, therefore, if the switch to 1.1.2 only fixes that, theres no incentive.

OK. I agree.

GTiPhone
Nov 4, 2007, 12:21 PM
You're kidding right?

How about teaching thousands of people how to exploit security holes in the iPhone.

Yeah no impact on anyone!

To what end? To accomplish what exactly? 1.4 million iPhones sold and active in the U.S.

Point out to me one negative security exploit. One.

Telp
Nov 4, 2007, 12:23 PM
To what end? To accomplish what exactly? 1.4 million iPhones sold and active in the U.S.

Point out to me one negative security exploit. One.

...

How about the TIFF exploit....

Telp
Nov 4, 2007, 12:24 PM
To what end? To accomplish what exactly? 1.4 million iPhones sold and active in the U.S.

Point out to me one negative security exploit. One.

...

How about the TIFF exploit....

GTiPhone
Nov 4, 2007, 12:51 PM
Not when 1.1.1 contains a glaring security hole in Safari. You can go to a website with a carefully crafted TIFF image and get 'rooted'. This is something all iPhone users should want fixed.

It's up to individual users if they want to hold off though. They might want to retain access to the phone via that route and keep 1.1.1 (or retain the hack applied). Fair enough if they do, that's their choice.

No kidding. Thats why I didn't wait around for Apple to do it. I used Apptapp and fixed it myself.

GTiPhone
Nov 4, 2007, 12:52 PM
...

How about the TIFF exploit....

Taken care of. Do some reading.


I asked you to point at one NEGATIVE security EXPLOIT. Not a potential hole. I meant point at a story, even a BS story, of someone being maliciously hacked.

alexdudman
Nov 4, 2007, 12:53 PM
Is it not possible for people who buy 1.1.2 iPhones to use iNdependence to downgrade to 1.1.1 or 1.0.2 to get it jailbroken?

Also, do we know if the 1.1.2 firmware also disables the iNdependence method of "Activating" your iPhone to use iPod and Safari features?

Me hoping not!
(Apple - a love hate relationship) :rolleyes:

CrusaderKnight
Nov 4, 2007, 12:53 PM
I want to know when they will have the iTunes radio stations on the iPhone but it will most likely come later on

emotion
Nov 4, 2007, 01:05 PM
I asked you to point at one NEGATIVE security EXPLOIT. Not a potential hole. I meant point at a story, even a BS story, of someone being maliciously hacked.

Any exploit in any Apple software should be plugged immediately. I expect that of Apple. No ifs, no buts.

I'm not saying they should stop people from jailbreaking however, just that if the route in is via a genuine security exploit then they are obliged to fix it, and quickly.

Luis
Nov 4, 2007, 01:10 PM
This only have to do with JAILBREAKING (using jailbreakme) not UNLOCKING. And this is because jailbreakme relies on the TIFF exploit, which was patched in 1.1.2. The TIFF exploit has nothing to do with unlocking nor has anything to do with the jailbreaking technique used in iNdepedence.

So..No, no one has confirmed that unlocking is broken on 1.1.2.

btw. @ Compile em all

If you cannot jailbreak, you cannot unlock yes? The unlocking procedure requires a 3rd party app on the iPhone does it not?

Yes, but if jailbreaking is broken it does not mean unlocking is broken. I mean, you may not be able to get the app into the phone at first, but once you do, it is possible that the unlock method works as it did with 1.1.1.

emotion
Nov 4, 2007, 01:10 PM
No kidding. Thats why I didn't wait around for Apple to do it. I used Apptapp and fixed it myself.

Not all iPhone users are as obviously l33t as you. Apple should patch the TIFF exploit, and they have. That's good, it shows they take security seriously.

If you want to stick at 1.1.1 and patch yourself that's ok too. You can still pretend to be a hacker.

emotion
Nov 4, 2007, 01:11 PM
Yes, but if jailbreaking is broken it does not mean unlocking is broken. I mean, you may not be able to get the app into the phone at first, but once you do, it is possible that the unlock method works as it did with 1.1.1.

Ageed. It requires jailbreaking first though, that is my point.

alexdudman
Nov 4, 2007, 01:36 PM
Is it not possible for people who buy 1.1.2 iPhones to use iNdependence to downgrade to 1.1.1 or 1.0.2 to get it jailbroken?

Also, do we know if the 1.1.2 firmware also disables the iNdependence method of "Activating" your iPhone to use iPod and Safari features?

Me hoping not!
(Apple - a love hate relationship) :rolleyes:

Anyone?

Luis
Nov 4, 2007, 01:53 PM
Ageed. It requires jailbreaking first though, that is my point.

Ok, were on the same page then.

seedster2
Nov 4, 2007, 02:25 PM
Hackers identified a hole and leveraged that security flaw to regain access and jailbreak phones and then closed that hole when they were done. How can people still complain that the hackers are doing something wrong? sounds like they are closing holes and putting apple on notice that these holes exist.:rolleyes:

Apple is doing what they are supposed to do for their non-3rd party customers to be "secure". It's just a pity that apologists cant distinguish Apple's security efforts from their inability to release any worthwhile apps that dont drain the user's wallet.

Kardashian
Nov 4, 2007, 02:40 PM
I am all for Apple finding a way to prevent people from hacking the phone. I get excited every time there's talk of phones getting "bricked" because the people who hacked the phone had it coming. Apple has every right to fight off hackers with new updates, and I give them my full support in their quest to screw over anyone who tries to mess with their product.

But you hacked yours...

I had some 3rd party apps installed via jailbreakme.com...

You make no sense whatsoever.

moki
Nov 4, 2007, 02:44 PM
Personally I think Apple has a lot of nerve to continue harassing us in regards to our ringtones. If its not all about profits, why in gods name do they care. Even Steve Wozniak stated that we should be able add our own ringtones unhindered. To put it simply, I see it as all about profits, whether it comes from the RIAA or Apple's persistence in luring us into there damn iTunes store. I applaud Ambrosia, plz keep up the good work as you helping me make up for Apple's lack of decent ringtones on our iPhones. I am not updating, nor at this point do I hear of any specific reason to update, sorry Apple but my phone is working fine.

Don't fix what ain't broke...

That's the frustrating thing for us. I understand the security fixes; but iToner doesn't use any exploits or other nasty mechanisms for putting ringtones on your phone.

It'll be unfortunate if Apple really is intentionally breaking iToner with each release of their firmware. It sure smells like that about now.

macUser2007
Nov 4, 2007, 02:48 PM
Knowledge isn't dangerous? Knowledge isn't automatically dangerous, no.

Knowledge in the hands of people who like to harm, annoy, harass, or inconvenience people?

DANGEROUS!

This is so self evident, there really is no argument needed.

...

Hm, I see you must go to church a lot....

How did any of the 3rd party apps that Apple broke (to prevent threats to present and future revenue streams,) annoyed, harassed, or inconvenienced people? Particularly people like you, who didn't install any of these 3rd party apps (and probably don't know how to, anyway.)

Do you even know what you are talking about?

So afraid of Knowledge, and apparently you've never met her:-)

Compile 'em all
Nov 4, 2007, 03:00 PM
btw. @ Compile em all

If you cannot jailbreak, you cannot unlock yes? The unlocking procedure requires a 3rd party app on the iPhone does it not?

Okay, this is taking too long really to get across. I will explain anyway.

Jailbreaking the iPhone NOW works without the need for the TIFF exploit. In fact, people are advised not to use jailbreakme because quite frankly visiting a website that gets write access to your phone is not cool. Heck, the dev-team already released a patch for the tiff exploit which is available through installer.app. So Apple patching the TIFF is of no surprise to anyone, the dev-team has put out a patch already. We have been jailbreaking the iPhone for weeks before jailbreakme was out.

emotion
Nov 4, 2007, 03:03 PM
Okay, this is taking too long really to get across. I will explain anyway.

I fully understand the ins and outs. I'm saying if your device ships with 1.1.2 then you have no recourse to jailbreak OR unlock (as that requires jailbreaking).

(Unless you can rewind to a previous firmware version - it remains to be seen if this can be done).

Compile 'em all
Nov 4, 2007, 03:15 PM
I fully understand the ins and outs. I'm saying if your device ships with 1.1.2 then you have no recourse to jailbreak OR unlock (as that requires jailbreaking).


If the symlink trick is patched in 1.1.2 then jailbreaking won't be possible at all. If not, then it is a piece of cake.

shadowfax
Nov 4, 2007, 03:34 PM
I am all for Apple finding a way to prevent people from hacking the phone. I get excited every time there's talk of phones getting "bricked" because the people who hacked the phone had it coming. Apple has every right to fight off hackers with new updates, and I give them my full support in their quest to screw over anyone who tries to mess with their product.
You are, to put it mildly, an Idiot. :)
That post made me think of a movie I really like, Catch Me If You Can. There's a great scene with Tom Hanks and those two other guys in the car. It went something like this...

"OK, you wanna here a joke? Knock, knock!"
"Who's there?"
[edited for the children :)]

Hm, I see you must go to church a lot....

How did any of the 3rd party apps that Apple broke (to prevent threats to present and future revenue streams,) annoyed, harassed, or inconvenienced people? Particularly people like you, who didn't install any of these 3rd party apps (and probably don't know how to, anyway.)

Do you even know what you are talking about?

So afraid of Knowledge, and apparently you've never met her:-)
Man, was that necessary? What do you presume to know about people who go to church. I'll tell you, it's a lot more than you actually do know. Do you actually know what you are talking about? Funny, you probably think churchgoers are such hypocrites.... just like you. Why do you have to be a jerk to get your point across?

macUser2007
Nov 4, 2007, 03:49 PM
...What do you presume to know about people who go to church....

Hm, it was an illustration of how some beliefs are fervent and never doubted, yet baseless. And arguing with true believers is pointless:eek:

Actually, I do know quite a bit;)

shadowfax
Nov 4, 2007, 04:03 PM
Hm, it was an illustration of how some beliefs are fervent and never doubted, yet baseless. And arguing with true believers is pointless:eek:

Actually, I do know quite a bit;)
But why is church the illustration? people are indoctrinated everywhere. Primary school, secondary school, university, your job, by your parents... you're just picking on religion. And how do you presume to know what fervently held beliefs are baseless?

neverusedq
Nov 4, 2007, 04:11 PM
So we all knew this was going to happen with the new update... but what I think a lot of us are missing is that you MUST HAVE iTunes 7.5 to put it in... :eek:


If any of you early "bricked" victims (and hackers) remember, there has always been a way to downgrade your iPhone software via iTunes. So even if things went crazy through the iPhone OS, there were ways to go backwards through iTunes, right? :confused:

What if this is no longer in iTunes 7.5? What if once upgraded, you've opened Pandora's box (or rather-- locked yourself in it)? I would be very skeptical of the iPhonisms to follow with both iTunes and with iPhone. We can all agree that iPhone has had strings tied to it since the very beginning and it's no secret that iPhone's the gold mine for the Big :apple:.

Mac user I may be, but after being in the world of Microsoft for 18 long years, you learn early in the game:

Never grab the latest update when it's hot off the line... ;)

Everybody tells you everything good about a product-- car salesmen do that. Nobody tells you the hooks on the other side. Never forget Apple's in the business to sell, and they're going to fight viciously for this market.

macUser2007
Nov 4, 2007, 04:11 PM
...And how do you presume to know what fervently held beliefs are baseless?

I never said they were..., I fervently believe in the resurrection of Osiris and pray to Him when I break bread:D

Chill, man. You are scaring me, you are at LANL....

exigentsky
Nov 4, 2007, 04:13 PM
But why is church the illustration? people are indoctrinated everywhere. Primary school, secondary school, university, your job, by your parents... you're just picking on religion. And how do you presume to know what fervently held beliefs are baseless?

I realize you're a Demi-God so this is a difficult issue for you. But please, drop it. It's a separate discussion.

tooshaggy
Nov 4, 2007, 04:40 PM
jeez.
You would kind of think that unlockers and app'ers are a bigger threat than iToner.
I will not be updating until I hear from Ambrosia that its OK.

Useless updates apple....
get on with the good stuff!

winterspan
Nov 4, 2007, 06:48 PM
You're kidding right?

How about teaching thousands of people how to exploit security holes in the iPhone.

Yeah no impact on anyone!

And thats a BAD thing how? They definitely brought it to attention....
Now Apple will fix it immediately instead of having this exploit end up roaming around IRC channels where virus/worm/trojan/spyware/spambot/etc writers hang out and having someone *REALLY* take advantage of it.

Although this is bad for the people who want to unlock/jailbreak their phone, In the mind of people worried about security, It is actually GOOD to have people hacking the iphone to publicly find all these exploits... They are acting as impromptu penetration testers for Apple!

happydude
Nov 4, 2007, 07:39 PM
So the cat and mouse game continues...hope people don't take this round of escalations too harshly. As for me, I'm still taking a wait-and-see attitude to the whole iPhone thing...maybe I'll jump on the bandwagon at 2.0

plus it nicely corresponds to my tmobile contract running out!!

Sobe
Nov 4, 2007, 07:45 PM
And thats a BAD thing how? They definitely brought it to attention....
Now Apple will fix it immediately instead of having this exploit end up roaming around IRC channels where virus/worm/trojan/spyware/spambot/etc writers hang out and having someone *REALLY* take advantage of it.

Although this is bad for the people who want to unlock/jailbreak their phone, In the mind of people worried about security, It is actually GOOD to have people hacking the iphone to publicly find all these exploits... They are acting as impromptu penetration testers for Apple!

As previously stated, but obviously ignored, yes it is good to have people find out that they exist, no question.

It is rather less good to then have this information not only provided but packaged with explicit instructions on how to use it to hack into the phone.

If you fail to grasp the difference between discovering something and bringing it to the world's attention versus discovering something and telling everyone how to do it, well nothing left to be said there.

jamesnajera
Nov 4, 2007, 08:31 PM
Everyone who is asking MMS will not see it, untill apple releases a serious update that includes file management. I Believe this will not happen though because it would allow people to get ringtones from other places like those commercials on MTV. MMS will also let people to recieve other files that apple does not want people to recieve. It is obvious that apple wants to control how files are put on to the iphone and will only let files be put on the iphone via itunes. This way they ensure that if you are going to get a ringtone they are going to make money.

Also audio recording will never happen or is as likely as MMS. Apple will not allow voice recording becuase then people will try to use it to record a ringtone, and when people record a sound they want as a ringtine but can't set it as a ringtone it will become a feature request apple does not want to hear. Remember apple wants to make money on ringtones and they want to be the only people making money on ringtones.

Also, I think iChat will never happen because SMS looks just like iChat and apple probably made a deal with ATT since SMS is a very profitable feature for ATT today.

Anyway these are just my thoughts.

Peace

chuckles:)
Nov 4, 2007, 09:08 PM
If the symlink trick is patched in 1.1.2 then jailbreaking won't be possible at all. If not, then it is a piece of cake.

Impossible, Never. Significantly more difficult, most likely.

jokarak
Nov 4, 2007, 09:33 PM
plus it nicely corresponds to my tmobile contract running out!!

Would it be too much to hope that by the time 2.0 rolls out, Apple won't be locked in with a particular carrier? Actually, I guess not, since AT&T has Apple exclusively for a couple of years more, right? Am I to wait until 3.0? :( Haven't bought a locked phone since my Nokia 7910 (not sure on the number...the slider phone that came out around the time of the first Matrix movie).

carfac
Nov 4, 2007, 10:56 PM
Now Apple will fix it immediately...

Apple fix it IMMEDIATELY? Lets see, I have had my iPhone patched against this for two weeks- at least- and Apple may get around to patching it NEXT week? That- and breaking iToner- seem to be about all Apple is done with this release, and they are gonna be three weeks behind the hackers on this one. Yeah, this inspires a LOT of faith in Apples abilities.

At this rate, you can expect Flash in Safari in, oh, 2010 or so. Just about the time the web moves over to FlashUltra or something else incompatible.

Sobe
Nov 4, 2007, 11:29 PM
Apple fix it IMMEDIATELY? Lets see, I have had my iPhone patched against this for two weeks- at least- and Apple may get around to patching it NEXT week? That- and breaking iToner- seem to be about all Apple is done with this release, and they are gonna be three weeks behind the hackers on this one. Yeah, this inspires a LOT of faith in Apples abilities.

At this rate, you can expect Flash in Safari in, oh, 2010 or so. Just about the time the web moves over to FlashUltra or something else incompatible.

you're a real glass is half empty kinda guy.

michaelsaxon
Nov 5, 2007, 12:07 AM
Flash... please...

Spanna
Nov 5, 2007, 01:38 AM
Why not just buy an already unlocked iphone from france, wouldn't that come with the new system software and already be unlocked ?

breal8406
Nov 5, 2007, 03:38 AM
I have no sympathy for people here fretting over Apple breaking their hacked or modded phones. Being on MacRumors I can only assume that you guys all buy into other products of Apple's so you know how much they love to control the experience and maintain that control at whatever the cost.

You bought into the iPhone anyways and now you're crying because you assumed Apple would handle the device differently than usual because of the power of it's software and....oh ****....they didn't.

C'mon now... they've said they're gonna get a SDK for native software out the door in February. So you're getting your 3rd party apps rather soon. If that's not satisfying enough than I'm not so sure our displeasure here is really Apple's problem.

btw...I would love a native ToDo application on my phone that sync's with iCal and Mail so I completely understand the frusteration. But really....

rezatayebi
Nov 5, 2007, 05:23 AM
To hell with apple. I`m using an unlocked iphone and I won`t update.

Sobe
Nov 5, 2007, 05:43 AM
To hell with apple. I`m using an unlocked iphone and I won`t update.

yeah! stickin' it to the MAN!

Waynoo
Nov 5, 2007, 06:25 AM
Can't believe this Cat "N" mouse game, total waste of time.
A fabulous media player, innovative interface, Ha the ultimate PDA.
ALL CRIPPLED. IPOD touch all crippled. This technology has the potential
to change the way we deal with our every-day lives. It could be put to many uses. It seems to me the Corporate GiANTS and I now include APPLE have taken the road Macdonalds and the rest to ...... well GREED.
No thinking Left No thinking right No thinking Different.
So Sad

Stella
Nov 5, 2007, 06:45 AM
When you receive an MMS, you still have to tell the phone 'Use this file as a ringtone'. Its not automatic. If the iPhone doesn't have this option you just can't use any attached audio file as a ringtone.

Anyway, you don't need MMS, you can send a ringtone as a attachment. Again, in any case the iPhone has to have a function 'Use this file as ringtone'... which it doesn't.

Likewise, for voice recording.

Your theory about MMS doesn't stand up well.

Its not only about AT&T anymore, there are others - Orange and TMobile(?).

AT&T, Orange and TMobile all carry phones that support VOIP... which sell vastly more than the iPhone.

yes - Apple certainly do want to be the only ones that sell ringtone to iPhone customers...

Everyone who is asking MMS will not see it, untill apple releases a serious update that includes file management. I Believe this will not happen though because it would allow people to get ringtones from other places like those commercials on MTV. MMS will also let people to recieve other files that apple does not want people to recieve. It is obvious that apple wants to control how files are put on to the iphone and will only let files be put on the iphone via itunes. This way they ensure that if you are going to get a ringtone they are going to make money.

Also audio recording will never happen or is as likely as MMS. Apple will not allow voice recording becuase then people will try to use it to record a ringtone, and when people record a sound they want as a ringtine but can't set it as a ringtone it will become a feature request apple does not want to hear. Remember apple wants to make money on ringtones and they want to be the only people making money on ringtones.

Also, I think iChat will never happen because SMS looks just like iChat and apple probably made a deal with ATT since SMS is a very profitable feature for ATT today.

Anyway these are just my thoughts.

Peace

Swift
Nov 5, 2007, 07:56 AM
Um, what's the purpose of this update? Other than making people who have customized their phone miserable?

Oh, so I can make my menus show up in Cantonese...! Way to go Apple!

How about concentrating on delivering some useful upgrades? Like horizontal email/message input, or mms, or that rumored Internet Radio?

In case you haven't noticed, Apple intends to sell this phone in places where they speak different languages, and they have different alphabets. So if it just does that, it's good for the European and Asian markets, for starters. Oh, and it will undoubtedly close the TIFF road to hacking into the phone, which, for most users, is a good thing. Don't update your phone ever again, and you'll be fine. Sort of. But you'll still be vulnerable to a bad guy using the malformed TIFF attack and NOT putting new apps on the phone, but putting viruses or pulling off your personal information and selling it to spammers and fishers. Most people don't want that, but you apparently think that's okay.

Meanwhile, you will eventually have an approved path for 3rd-party apps, and then you could update all you want. What do you want to do?

Swift
Nov 5, 2007, 08:09 AM
Personally I think Apple has a lot of nerve to continue harassing us in regards to our ringtones. If its not all about profits, why in gods name do they care. Even Steve Wozniak stated that we should be able add our own ringtones unhindered. To put it simply, I see it as all about profits, whether it comes from the RIAA or Apple's persistence in luring us into there damn iTunes store. I applaud Ambrosia, plz keep up the good work as you helping me make up for Apple's lack of decent ringtones on our iPhones. I am not updating, nor at this point do I hear of any specific reason to update, sorry Apple but my phone is working fine.

Don't fix what ain't broke...

What I hear is that Apple wanted to make every single song they sell capable of being made into a ringtone without any further charges, but those rights aren't held by ANYBODY but the RIAA. (And none of that money goes to the artists, it all goes to the RIAA.) Now, the cell industry loves ringtones. They can sell a 20-second snippet of a song for $3.00, and then, with many US carriers, force you to buy it again after 6 months or so, or else lose it! It's a complete racket. But Apple's proposal of free conversions from the iTunes Store to the iPhone fell on deaf ears. They at least cell you the tone for only (!) $1.99, allow you to customize it the way you want, and let you keep it forever. Want more? Use the hack. Apple is not legally allowed to let you do that, but go ahead and hack it.

Consultant
Nov 5, 2007, 08:14 AM
Everyone who is asking MMS will not see it, untill apple releases a serious update that includes file management. I Believe this will not happen though because it would allow people to get ringtones from other places like those commercials on MTV. MMS will also let people to recieve other files that apple does not want people to recieve. It is obvious that apple wants to control how files are put on to the iphone and will only let files be put on the iphone via itunes. This way they ensure that if you are going to get a ringtone they are going to make money.

... Remember apple wants to make money on ringtones and they want to be the only people making money on ringtones.

Also, I think iChat will never happen because SMS looks just like iChat and apple probably made a deal with ATT since SMS is a very profitable feature for ATT today.

Anyway these are just my thoughts.

Peace

iPhone's email is compatible with MMS. AND IT'S FREE to use.
http://www.iphonefaq.org/archives/97158

You think Apple wants to charge for ringtones? It's the labels that want to charge the $$. On other carriers it's not uncommon for $3 ringtones (yes, more expensive than iTunes and you don't even get the full song).

People can put files via email, NOT limited to iTunes, and also, once SDK is released, you can put files via SFTP.

Currently if you have AppTap installed, there is a nice IM client that looks like iChat, and does AIM, and a few other services.

Consultant
Nov 5, 2007, 08:16 AM
Looking up support coverage on that serial number (7T742apx...) in the picture:
http://www.t3.co.uk/nested_content/gallery_assetlisting_navigation?root=878469&result_page=3
results in "No info found. Please try again."

Actually, the letters on the S# are not aligned.

metoo6000
Nov 5, 2007, 08:18 AM
That serial number in the picture: 7T742apx...
http://www.t3.co.uk/nested_content/gallery_assetlisting_navigation?root=878469&result_page=3
results in "No info found. Please try again."

which means....?

Fast Shadow
Nov 5, 2007, 08:22 AM
All the anti-hacking people spouting their fear and hate sound like neocons wailing about terrorists and mexicans hating our freedom, or whatever the mantra of the week is.

Consultant
Nov 5, 2007, 08:29 AM
which means....?

Serial from that photo has been altered. It can be a fake photo or perhaps it was done to hide identity.

metoo6000
Nov 5, 2007, 08:33 AM
Serial from that photo has been altered. It can be a fake photo or perhaps it was done to hide identity.

Heh, I was expecting that you would raise a conspiracy theory regarding 1.1.2 firmware for the UK iPhone. :D

megfilmworks
Nov 5, 2007, 08:39 AM
What I hear is that Apple wanted to make every single song they sell capable of being made into a ringtone without any further charges, but those rights aren't held by ANYBODY but the RIAA. (And none of that money goes to the artists, it all goes to the RIAA.) I agree with your sentiments, but your facts are wrong.
The RIAA does not hold any rights to ringtones and they do not receive royalties from ringtones.
Ringtone royalties are shared by the artists, record labels, songwriters and publishers.
Just like a CD.

overcast
Nov 5, 2007, 08:58 AM
To hell with apple. I`m using an unlocked iphone and I won`t update.

YEH! Take that you stupid faces!


:rolleyes:

X38
Nov 5, 2007, 10:09 AM
I am all for Apple finding a way to prevent people from hacking the phone. I get excited every time there's talk of phones getting "bricked" because the people who hacked the phone had it coming. Apple has every right to fight off hackers with new updates, and I give them my full support in their quest to screw over anyone who tries to mess with their product.

My iPhone is MY iPhone, not Apple's. It used to be theirs, but they sold it to me; I paid for it, that makes it MINE. I don't rent it, lease it, borrow it, whatever; I OWN it.
It's mine now and if Apple screws with it, they are screwing with my property and I have every right to get ticked at them.
What part of the concept of purchase & ownership is so difficult for you to understand?!

jlbrown23
Nov 5, 2007, 10:30 AM
Can't believe this Cat "N" mouse game, total waste of time.
A fabulous media player, innovative interface, Ha the ultimate PDA.
ALL CRIPPLED. IPOD touch all crippled. This technology has the potential
to change the way we deal with our every-day lives. It could be put to many uses. It seems to me the Corporate GiANTS and I now include APPLE have taken the road Macdonalds and the rest to ...... well GREED.
No thinking Left No thinking right No thinking Different.
So Sad

Amen! That is what a lot of folks are missing here. Everything is there for a world changing device - as big as the original Mac OS, laptop or cell phone - and Apple CHOOSES to PREVENT it being used. It's not a case of the technology needing to catch up to the vision - IT IS ALL THERE. But Apple has CHOSEN to put GREAT EFFORT in to preventing it. Just take a look at the Touch - there are 3 simple yet important apps that Apple has ALREADY WRITTEN for the iPhone that they REMOVED from the Touch(Mail, Notes, Cal). I have all 3 working fine on my Touch - why should I have had to hack it to get them to work?

If Apple is in the game for money, fine - LET ME PAY FOR THIS STUFF!

If they stay too closed, they are opening the door for the Mac OS/Windows debacle to happen all over again(those of us now forced to use Windows at work might remember this from the mid-90's. I don't want to be shackled to ANOTHER vastly inferior product for decades).

As far as the SDK - I am very skeptical. If Apple won't allow Mail & a functional Calendar on the Touch(how much more basic does it get?), what makes you think they'll allow the other apps people really want? Can you see VLC or the ability to download resulting from the SDK? Me neither.

fronheiser
Nov 5, 2007, 10:33 AM
My iPhone is MY iPhone, not Apple's. It used to be theirs, but they sold it to me; I paid for it, that makes it MINE. I don't rent it, lease it, borrow it, whatever; I OWN it.
It's mine now and if Apple screws with it, they are screwing with my property and I have every right to get ticked at them.
What part of the concept of purchase & ownership is so difficult for you to understand?!

You own it, you do not own the software that runs on it. Big distinction that too many people fail to acknowledge. Remember the license agreement you agreed to when you activated the phone?

salvatorereda
Nov 5, 2007, 10:44 AM
what about putting a mail app in the ITOUCH:confused:

drummingcraig
Nov 5, 2007, 10:44 AM
I agree with your sentiments, but your facts are wrong.
The RIAA does not hold any rights to ringtones and they do not receive royalties from ringtones.
Ringtone royalties are shared by the artists, record labels, songwriters and publishers.
Just like a CD.

Correct. Although I understand the confusion as the RIAA has become the figurehead for the enforcement of the copyrights and licensing.

It also should be noted that the RIAA's members are predominantly record companies and distributors so one could argue that they do in fact collect royalties (indirectly).

Craig

Luis
Nov 5, 2007, 10:45 AM
what about putting a mail app in the ITOUCH:confused:

Won't happen. However you can do it yourself...

overcast
Nov 5, 2007, 10:46 AM
My iPhone is MY iPhone, not Apple's. It used to be theirs, but they sold it to me; I paid for it, that makes it MINE. I don't rent it, lease it, borrow it, whatever; I OWN it.
It's mine now and if Apple screws with it, they are screwing with my property and I have every right to get ticked at them.
What part of the concept of purchase & ownership is so difficult for you to understand?!
YOU DO NOT OWN THE SOFTWARE. You own the physical metal/plastic/glass THAT'S IT. How difficult is this to understand?

emotion
Nov 5, 2007, 10:52 AM
Amen! That is what a lot of folks are missing here. Everything is there for a world changing device - as big as the original Mac OS, laptop or cell phone - and Apple CHOOSES to PREVENT it being used. It's not a case of the technology needing to catch up to the vision - IT IS ALL THERE.

Well it's clearly not. When you run those 3rd party apps on your jailbroken touch device you run as 'root'. That isn't sustainable.

I agree that these devices are world changing and I want Apple to open this up too but we have to have some patience here. I mean we don't have a choice but to trust to Apple's strategy.

They have to be careful with this strategy because Google are potentially hot on their heels with a possibly more open platform.


Edit: Google have announced their plan: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7078921.stm

drummingcraig
Nov 5, 2007, 10:54 AM
*BOLDING MINE*

Just take a look at the Touch - there are 3 simple yet important apps that Apple has ALREADY WRITTEN for the iPhone that they REMOVED from the Touch(Mail, Notes, Cal). I have all 3 working fine on my Touch - why should I have had to hack it to get them to work?

If you read the three words which I bolded you will see that you answered your own question.

If Apple is in the game for money, fine - LET ME PAY FOR THIS STUFF!

Umm...you can. Simply buy an iPhone.

Just because a company develops/invents/builds a feature doesn't mean they have to include it in every one of their products. Imagine going into a car dealership and demanding that they include all of the features from their $60,000 model in your $20,000 model. Apple *IS* after all a business. I don't understand why people are bashing them for trying to make money for themselves and their shareholders. :confused:

Craig

izzle22
Nov 5, 2007, 10:54 AM
My iPhone is MY iPhone, not Apple's. It used to be theirs, but they sold it to me; I paid for it, that makes it MINE. I don't rent it, lease it, borrow it, whatever; I OWN it.
It's mine now and if Apple screws with it, they are screwing with my property and I have every right to get ticked at them.
What part of the concept of purchase & ownership is so difficult for you to understand?!

And you also own the right to update it or not. If you don't update then you have nothing to worry about(except security) If you want to update you are **** out of luck so get over yourself.

Luis
Nov 5, 2007, 10:59 AM
My iPhone is MY iPhone, not Apple's. It used to be theirs, but they sold it to me; I paid for it, that makes it MINE. I don't rent it, lease it, borrow it, whatever; I OWN it.
It's mine now and if Apple screws with it, they are screwing with my property and I have every right to get ticked at them.
What part of the concept of purchase & ownership is so difficult for you to understand?!

It is people like you that I don't understand.

Apple sold you the phone AS IT WAS IN THAT MOMENT! They never promised you'll get more features or updates, in fact they never promised that if you hacked you're phone it will continue to work with future updates. And if you hacked the phone, you are an idiot if you didn't know the implications it could bring! And yes, I hacked mine and know that updates may kill the phone, but I don't complain because I know the implication as you should also! Get over yourself.

kingtj
Nov 5, 2007, 11:00 AM
I've bought into quite a few Apple products, and generally-speaking, they only want to "control the experience" as far as building things so they're not TOO customizable out of the box. (EG. OS X won't let you customize your desktop look and feel in any ways Apple doesn't think are "necessary" without using 3rd. party utilities and haxies.)

In recent years, I'd say Apple is leaning MORE toward being "flexible" than they ever did in the past. How much effort have they put towards stopping hacks of their AppleTV product, for example? Likewise, did you ever foresee Apple allowing their machines to dual-boot along-side a Windows OS, and even writing Windows drivers to make it work more smoothly?

If Apple handled the iPhone like they did the rest of their current product offerings, I'd expect them to warn people that modified iPhones sent in for service wouldn't be covered under warranty. I'd expect them to only provide a limited feature-set by default, consistent with Steve Jobs' vision of exactly what he thinks the device should and shouldn't do. BUT, I wouldn't expect them to actively force everyone into upgrading the phone to a locked-down firmware version that purposely breaks 3rd. party utilities as one of its primary "features"!

That's considerably more "aggressive" than normal for Apple, and reeks of pressure put on them by AT&T, really.


I have no sympathy for people here fretting over Apple breaking their hacked or modded phones. Being on MacRumors I can only assume that you guys all buy into other products of Apple's so you know how much they love to control the experience and maintain that control at whatever the cost.

You bought into the iPhone anyways and now you're crying because you assumed Apple would handle the device differently than usual because of the power of it's software and....oh ****....they didn't.

C'mon now... they've said they're gonna get a SDK for native software out the door in February. So you're getting your 3rd party apps rather soon. If that's not satisfying enough than I'm not so sure our displeasure here is really Apple's problem.

btw...I would love a native ToDo application on my phone that sync's with iCal and Mail so I completely understand the frusteration. But really....

kingtj
Nov 5, 2007, 11:10 AM
I just have to say, this argument is popular but flawed.
Nobody buys just the "physical metal/plastic/glass" for hundreds of dollars, just because they want that "chunk of material".

They do so because of the capabilities it promises, and that only happens because of the software contained within it.

The developers of software *love* to trot out the argument that "we still own the software, not YOU!" -- but in reality, I think that's only proven to go as far as meaning "YOU don't have the legal right to copy our code, call it your OWN work, and profit from its redistribution."

By a mix of propaganda, paid-off politicians, and lobbying for questionable changes to copyright law, they've been able to win themselves legal enforcement of much more than this. But ultimately, the public considers a purchase of a combination hardware/software product to be "theirs", both to USE and to MODIFY as they see fit.


YOU DO NOT OWN THE SOFTWARE. You own the physical metal/plastic/glass THAT'S IT. How difficult is this to understand?

Luis
Nov 5, 2007, 11:12 AM
Nobody buys just the "physical metal/plastic/glass" for hundreds of dollars, just because they want that "chunk of material".

More exactly, you "own" the software that COMES with the phone. Everything out of that is given to you.

megfilmworks
Nov 5, 2007, 12:21 PM
Correct. Although I understand the confusion as the RIAA has become the figurehead for the enforcement of the copyrights and licensing.

It also should be noted that the RIAA's members are predominantly record companies and distributors so one could argue that they do in fact collect royalties (indirectly).

CraigNow that I can agree with, but you did forget to mention the songwriter and publisher (Harry Fox Agency) they are the most powerful part of the formula.

megfilmworks
Nov 5, 2007, 12:23 PM
More exactly, you "own" the software that COMES with the phone. Everything out of that is given to you.
Actually, you NEVER OWN the software. You are licensed to use it.

carfac
Nov 5, 2007, 12:56 PM
you're a real glass is half empty kinda guy.

A couple days of lag, I can understand, and deal with. A week or so, well, slow but ok. But 5-6 weeks lag from when it was discovered (the TIFF exploit) and three weeks from when third party people had a fix? No, that is not "half empty"- that is Apple TOTALLY dropping the ball on this one.

I think it just reinforces what Apples real goal is, and that is to break 3rd party apps, unlocks and jailbreaks. Otherwise, a 1.1.2 that fixed the TIFF exploit would have been out weeks ago. And a point upgrade that did ONLY that would have been simple (the hackers did it!), and welcomed.

I am really surprised the TIFF exploit does not cost 99 cents to get, though. :)

g9icy
Nov 5, 2007, 01:37 PM
I'm pretty annoyed with them releasing 1.1.2 on the new phones due out here friday, means I won't be able to truly get the most out of an iPhone for a few weeks, if ever.

It's pushing me to not bother getting one.

As for the ringtone discussion. I should be allowed to put whatever I want as my ringtone. Be it song, funny noise or a clip from a movie.

Perhaps they make you pay because other people hear it, and it indirectly counts as broadcast of the song...
Ridiculous, whatever the reason.

drummingcraig
Nov 5, 2007, 01:58 PM
I
Perhaps they make you pay because other people hear it, and it indirectly counts as broadcast of the song...


DING DING DING!!! We have a winner!

emotion
Nov 5, 2007, 02:00 PM
DING DING DING!!! We have a winner!


Naah. Apple wants a cut of the massive ringtone industry's money that's all.

jlbrown23
Nov 5, 2007, 02:14 PM
*BOLDING MINE*



If you read the three words which I bolded you will see that you answered your own question.



Umm...you can. Simply buy an iPhone.

Just because a company develops/invents/builds a feature doesn't mean they have to include it in every one of their products. Imagine going into a car dealership and demanding that they include all of the features from their $60,000 model in your $20,000 model. Apple *IS* after all a business. I don't understand why people are bashing them for trying to make money for themselves and their shareholders. :confused:

Craig

You are talking apples and oranges here. Cars have VASTLY different hardware/performance, etc. that greatly contributes to cost. A better car analogy would be to say that a company would chose to put air conditioning in one car as a standard option, and not make it available at ANY PRICE in another model even though both models actually had all the air conditioning hardware installed(there just wasn't a knob to turn it on in the one car). Fine, Apple is a business - let them sell me the additional software for $50(like car manufacturers give you options standard on expensive models and make you pay for them on cheap models).

They are being penny wise and pound foolish. Anyone who remembers how horrible Windows 3.0 was and how much better System 7 was ca remember the last time they made this mistake and how much it cost them.

drummingcraig
Nov 5, 2007, 02:14 PM
Naah. Apple wants a cut of the massive ringtone industry's money that's all.

Apple may indeed be taking a cut of the 99 cent ring tone fee, but I will bet you dollars to donuts that the majority of the money goes to pay licensing/publishing fees on the songs. Are you familiar with the concept of mechanical royalties? Anytime you hear a song on the radio or in a movie or in a commercial etc. royalties are being generated (these are separate from sales royalties).

Another interesting tidbit: Did you know that if you own any place of business (restaurant, bar, retail store, office, etc etc.) and you were to setup a stereo system,say in a waiting area and play your own CD's on it for the customers to hear...you are liable to be fined BIGTIME for unlicensed public broadcast of copyrighted material. Thats why (at least here in the US) you see many places of business who use any type of "musak" displaying some sort of ASCAP affiliation sticker which means they pay dues in order to use that music.

This whole deal with paying for ring tones is promulgated by ASCAP/RIAA/ et al because its a surefire means to collect on something which they had limited means to before. If :apple: had allowed iPhone users to freely use any song in their library as a ring tone the music industry would have had a tissy fit.

The other companies who sell ring tones for $2-3 a pop...they are the ones really cashing in on it.

NokX
Nov 5, 2007, 02:15 PM
how about adding support for MMS and sending mass text messages?

wtf....:mad:

carfac
Nov 5, 2007, 02:24 PM
I'm pretty annoyed with them releasing 1.1.2 on the new phones due out here friday, means I won't be able to truly get the most out of an iPhone for a few weeks, if ever.

It's pushing me to not bother getting one.

Just wait a couple weeks. Apple will drop the price 200 pounds or euros or whatever. They did here! :)

Seriously, look for something in a few weeks/months when sales dip and they need to hit their numbers. You will get a better deal (maybe) and 1.1.2 will be cracked (and you will be worried about 1.1.3!!!)

drummingcraig
Nov 5, 2007, 02:35 PM
You are talking apples and oranges here. Cars have VASTLY different hardware/performance, etc. that greatly contributes to cost. A better car analogy would be to say that a company would chose to put air conditioning in one car as a standard option, and not make it available at ANY PRICE in another model even though both models actually had all the air conditioning hardware installed(there just wasn't a knob to turn it on in the one car). Fine, Apple is a business - let them sell me the additional software for $50(like car manufacturers give you options standard on expensive models and make you pay for them on cheap models).

They are being penny wise and pound foolish. Anyone who remembers how horrible Windows 3.0 was and how much better System 7 was ca remember the last time they made this mistake and how much it cost them.

I realize that my example was extreme, however the concept still holds true. Apple had to differentiate the iPod Touch and the iPhone enough to not risk sidestepping their deal with AT&T and to justify the difference in price.

iPods have never been interactive devices (aside from the games). They play music and movies and display notes which you can add from your computer. The Touch took the iPod further by adding the wonderful screen and touch interface from the iPhone. The wireless interface is there for one reason alone: to connect with iTunes to purchase music and movies. At the end of the day the Touch *is* still an iPod, not a PDA. Even though Mail and iCal and Safari could easily be included in the Touch, they aren't needed to fulfill the mission of the device.

So I say again, if you want a fully interactive device...buy the iPhone. Don't get mad at :apple: because their product doesn't satisfy all of your wishes and desires; especially when you knew what you were buying.

mmfy
Nov 5, 2007, 02:36 PM
A couple days of lag, I can understand, and deal with. A week or so, well, slow but ok. But 5-6 weeks lag from when it was discovered (the TIFF exploit) and three weeks from when third party people had a fix? No, that is not "half empty"- that is Apple TOTALLY dropping the ball on this one.

I think it just reinforces what Apples real goal is, and that is to break 3rd party apps, unlocks and jailbreaks. Otherwise, a 1.1.2 that fixed the TIFF exploit would have been out weeks ago. And a point upgrade that did ONLY that would have been simple (the hackers did it!), and welcomed.

I am really surprised the TIFF exploit does not cost 99 cents to get, though. :)

lmao don't be too sure...now that they use only credit cards you better check to see that isn't included in the tax! :D

Agree with you though..they could've sent an update to fix that long ago...a language pack and TIFF exploit fix is really a waste of time with another update probably around the corner with SDK on the horizon.

carfac
Nov 5, 2007, 02:40 PM
Apple may indeed be taking a cut of the 99 cent ring tone fee, but I will bet you dollars to donuts that the majority of the money goes to pay licensing/publishing fees on the songs. Are you familiar with the concept of mechanical royalties? Anytime you hear a song on the radio or in a movie or in a commercial etc. royalties are being generated (these are separate from sales royalties).

Another interesting tidbit: Did you know that if you own any place of business (restaurant, bar, retail store, office, etc etc.) and you were to setup a stereo system,say in a waiting area and play your own CD's on it for the customers to hear...you are liable to be fined BIGTIME for unlicensed public broadcast of copyrighted material.

I know what you are saying, and I understand that. No problem there.

I think the problem a LOT of people have with this goes beyond this concept, though. First, your examples are ALL commercial enterprises; having a ring tone on your phone is in no way commercial. I, as someone who puts a ring tone on my phone, do not garner any increase in income- directly or indirectly- from that ringtone (which is NOT the case in any of your examples).

Further, the complaint is made that one has already paid for the use of that song. The argument is that the ring tone is a personal use of that song, and should be allowed for free.

I am not sure if there is a legal opinion either way on this... and I am just trying to play devils advocate here. I think the record companies have stepped up and said, "Yes, you have to pay a fee for this usage," but I am not sure that this has been legal;y established. Be an interesting case, that is for sure. You could certainly show that it is a non-commercial use. Whether that matters or not, I do not know...

BobVB
Nov 5, 2007, 02:54 PM
That's the problem - who wants pop music for their ring tones? I want mine to say "Hey Bob's Calling", or the free ringtones given out by producers (love 'Oh Cthulhu')

Some day when the iPhone lets me put the files I want as ringtones and adds voice dialing maybe it will be worth the money.

Unspeaked
Nov 5, 2007, 03:00 PM
I am really surprised the TIFF exploit does not cost 99 cents to get, though. :)

Pay for it???

I thought Apple was going to give anyone who purchased a pre-1.1.2 iPhone a $100 store credit to make up for their having to deal with the TIFF exploit as early adopters!

~J~
Nov 5, 2007, 03:08 PM
how about adding support for MMS and sending mass text messages?

wtf....:mad:

Thats what I'm talkin' about... seriously... lets actually add some features here - which would boost sales as well - bonus for everyone. And these two features are on my most wanted list...

Sobe
Nov 5, 2007, 04:21 PM
A couple days of lag, I can understand, and deal with. A week or so, well, slow but ok. But 5-6 weeks lag from when it was discovered (the TIFF exploit) and three weeks from when third party people had a fix? No, that is not "half empty"- that is Apple TOTALLY dropping the ball on this one.

I think it just reinforces what Apples real goal is, and that is to break 3rd party apps, unlocks and jailbreaks. Otherwise, a 1.1.2 that fixed the TIFF exploit would have been out weeks ago. And a point upgrade that did ONLY that would have been simple (the hackers did it!), and welcomed.

I am really surprised the TIFF exploit does not cost 99 cents to get, though. :)

And I thought Apple's goal was to sell products and make money.

Details of breaking 3rd party apps, unlocks, and jailbreaks will certainly make for a livelier quarterly report though.

drummingcraig
Nov 5, 2007, 05:18 PM
I think the problem a LOT of people have with this goes beyond this concept, though. First, your examples are ALL commercial enterprises; having a ring tone on your phone is in no way commercial. I, as someone who puts a ring tone on my phone, do not garner any increase in income- directly or indirectly- from that ringtone (which is NOT the case in any of your examples).

I should have clarified that I was citing that example to illustrate one particular case of music licensing issues. I didn't mean to imply that a ring tone is the same thing.

Further, the complaint is made that one has already paid for the use of that song. The argument is that the ring tone is a personal use of that song, and should be allowed for free.

I am not sure if there is a legal opinion either way on this... and I am just trying to play devils advocate here. I think the record companies have stepped up and said, "Yes, you have to pay a fee for this usage," but I am not sure that this has been legal;y established. Be an interesting case, that is for sure. You could certainly show that it is a non-commercial use. Whether that matters or not, I do not know...

I think that the question is "what is the definition of personal use"? I know that there are a lot of different licensing issues for copyrighted material and I think that the ring tones are probably falling under some obscure rule. I think that "personal use" only includes mediums for which the work was originally intended (ie. played through speakers, headphones, etc for pure listening enjoyment). Once a song (or portion thereof) becomes a ring tone...it is now outside of the realm of what it was originally intended for.

Its kind of like the argument going on in another forum about software licenses. When you buy a song or album you are essentially buying a license to use the works of the artist. You don't literally own the music. I agree it is excessive to have to pay extra for a ring tone, but I sincerely believe that we have the recording industry to thank for that.

Craig

EDIT to add that I am going to research this some and see if I can find out if ring tones do indeed require a separate license and/or what rule they may fall under.

megfilmworks
Nov 5, 2007, 05:52 PM
Here's how it goes:

When you buy a CD you have not bought a song, you have purchased a recording of a performance of a song. (the underlying work)
Only the songwriter and the publisher own the song.
A mechanical royalty is paid by the record label (or iTunes) to the songwriter/publisher for every copy sold. It is statutory.
The record label also has to pay the artist royalties as well.
The record label only controls the one unique recording and must pay royalties to all parties entitled for each copy sold.

When a artist is played on the radio, tv, performs in a club or an orchestra plays a composition publicly for profit (and in some cases even for free) they are performing someone's work.
A general performance license is paid by TV stations, venues, radio etc. to ASCAP and BMI. They log the performances and the general license collected by the performing rights societies are distributed to the songwriter and publisher members minus administration costs.
As far as ringtones go, it is a developing area (witness the writer's strike).
Agreements are negotiated as opt in, opt out to writer/publishers, and many do not want their songs "commercialized" in a ringtone.
It is a license. It is not a performance issue though.

CWallace
Nov 5, 2007, 09:39 PM
I'd like to patch the security hole, but not at the expense of losing ringtones (again). Ambrosia is doing miracles, but I would not be surprised if Apple is working on trying to reverse-engineer their code to make each workaround harder.

So, in a fit of irony, Apple drives me into the hands of the hackers since they not only fix the problem, they don't cause new ones. :confused:

moki
Nov 5, 2007, 09:45 PM
I'd like to patch the security hole, but not at the expense of losing ringtones (again). Ambrosia is doing miracles, but I would not be surprised if Apple is working on trying to reverse-engineer their code to make each workaround harder.

So, in a fit of irony, Apple drives me into the hands of the hackers since they not only fix the problem, they don't cause new ones. :confused:

For the record, I'm for Apple patching any and all security holes too. We don't use any exploits or other nastiness to put ringtones on your iPhone.

Right now, we really have no idea if Apple is breaking iToner in the 1.1.2 iPhone OS. If they do, I think it's safe to assume that Apple really does intend to only allow ringtones bought form the iTunes Music Store on iPhones.

That, to me, would be unfortunate. And not just because we make iToner to do exactly that. It's also because there are ringtones that *I* want on my iPhone that Apple doesn't offer.

Sigh. We'll see what happens when the other shoe drops. We will of course be trying our best to work around whatever they've done, if they have indeed broken us again.

panamajack
Nov 5, 2007, 10:47 PM
My iPhone is MY iPhone, not Apple's. It used to be theirs, but they sold it to me; I paid for it, that makes it MINE. I don't rent it, lease it, borrow it, whatever; I OWN it.
It's mine now and if Apple screws with it, they are screwing with my property and I have every right to get ticked at them.
What part of the concept of purchase & ownership is so difficult for you to understand?!

First of all, I support people hacking multitouch OS devices, it's great ! But indigent posts like this just crack me up. You bought only the hardware; the software that makes the phone worth anything is simply licensed to you. Most people understand this, but can't accept for what it actively means. You change the functionality of Apple's properitary software and they DO have the right to make things more difficult for you. Whether or not that makes good business sense in the long run is a different story .... as is the question relating to Apple's intent - malicious or otherwise.

Secondly, who is forcing people to upgrade ? If Apple pulled M$ like bs in auto-updating their software I'd be 100% behind the bricktards, but the fact of the matter anyone who had the knowledge of liberating their phones to be non-standard iPhones knew there was an associated risk !


That all said, I have to thank all the unlockees for being brave and exploring all the potential this exciting new platform has ... you are simply making the future experience for Gen 2 buyers like myself brighter (as it Apple's SDK announcement).

thefunkymunky
Nov 6, 2007, 04:22 AM
Does this update add MMS?

carfac
Nov 6, 2007, 08:16 AM
Does this update add MMS?

You make me smile- of course it doesn't. This does three things:

Breaks Hacks again.
Adds International Keyboards
Fixes the TIFF Exploit.

synner
Nov 6, 2007, 09:35 AM
Hi,

This whole ringtone situation is really frustrating, I realise that I'm probably in a small minority but I actually produce my own music (And by produce I mean write, engineer, produce etc using CuBase and a rather expensive collection of synths!)

I have, for the last 4-5 years always created my own set of ringtones for my phones, unfortuantely I will be unable to use my own work as a ringtone on my own phone !

I really hope those lovely iToner devs are able to update the app to work with 1.1.2 (If 1.1.2 does break iToner)..

Bri (Not looking forward to the iPhone UK release as much as I was !)

thefunkymunky
Nov 6, 2007, 10:23 AM
iPhone 1.1.2 firmware as seen in the latest Apple video on the UK iPhone pages.

http://att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=90428&d=1194365066

twoodcc
Nov 6, 2007, 10:25 AM
i hope this ads nike+ support

AJsAWiz
Nov 6, 2007, 11:44 AM
Hi,

This whole ringtone situation is really frustrating, I realise that I'm probably in a small minority but I actually produce my own music (And by produce I mean write, engineer, produce etc using CuBase and a rather expensive collection of synths!)

I have, for the last 4-5 years always created my own set of ringtones for my phones, unfortuantely I will be unable to use my own work as a ringtone on my own phone !

I really hope those lovely iToner devs are able to update the app to work with 1.1.2 (If 1.1.2 does break iToner)..

Bri (Not looking forward to the iPhone UK release as much as I was !)

I hope 1.1.2 does not break iToner. I plan on watching to see how 1.1.2 affects others before updating it myself :cool:

macUser2007
Nov 6, 2007, 02:07 PM
YOU DO NOT OWN THE SOFTWARE. You own the physical metal/plastic/glass THAT'S IT. How difficult is this to understand?

Generally, for most SANE, LOGICAL people, very difficult....:rolleyes:

~J~
Nov 6, 2007, 02:10 PM
I hope 1.1.2 does not break iToner. I plan on watching to see how 1.1.2 affects others before updating it myself :cool:

Im with you on that... I was one of the first to update to 1.1.1... which means I was also one of the first to discover that it broke iToner. I will be waiting to see what other people do and say about it. But I do hope it adds some real functionality... always a plus.

Post-IT
Nov 6, 2007, 09:46 PM
I had some 3rd party apps installed via jailbreakme.com, but upon hearing this news, I promptly restored my phone, as I like to stay safely, legally, and securely up to date.

As long as Apple lets every application run under root, most importantly Safari :eek: ...there is little security. Hopefully they will finally make a huge leap forward in security instead of being stupid.

No, I don't mean they need to close it for 3rd party development, but for threats like malicious stuff. Everybody just installs all sorts of garbage while almost nobody looks at the source code. I am sure I can count the people who check if they install malicious software on their iPhone with less then ten fingers. Did anybody check what kind of stuff fires of when you surf to jailbraikme.com? Or one of the other "mirrors"? I'm not saying something is wrong with those guys. But this is definitively dangerous doing it with your eyes closed.

It is a great unix box, rootkits all around. Nobody knows they might have installed them by using 3rd party apps or malicious webcontent. Do you want to see your phone beeing used in wardialing attacks, or as a mail of SMS relay in SPAM attacks? And get your 3000 page AT&T bill half way next month... Or seeing your e-mail or addressbook spread around the world? Think about this! Even worse if you use your iPhone for business e-mail.

So hopefully Apple has hired some security experts to make this a secure platform with a good and secure SDK platform, instead of focussing in blocking all those jailbrake attempts and breaking other stuff. I would rather see the SDK turn up sooner with a secure and fast platform.

funkypepper
Nov 8, 2007, 09:02 AM
I am wondering if it'll be possible to unlock the phone like the 1.1.1 way, downgrading to 0.2, unlocking and again upgrading to 1.1.

Oh God, I was just about to buy one, it seems I'll have to wait more couple of weeks.

alexdudman
Nov 8, 2007, 12:37 PM
Doesn't iTunes updaye your iPhone to 1.1.1 once you have downgraded and done the pre-upgrade steps.
If this s the case then won't iTunes just update your phone to 1.1.2 from friday?

CWallace
Nov 8, 2007, 02:37 PM
Doesn't iTunes updaye your iPhone to 1.1.1 once you have downgraded and done the pre-upgrade steps. If this is the case then won't iTunes just update your phone to 1.1.2 from friday?

iTunes only modifies the firmware when you instruct it to do a restore.

Just connecting an iPhone to iTunes will not automatically update the firmware.