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MacRumors
Sep 15, 2003, 09:57 AM
PowerPage claims (http://www.powerpage.org/cgi-bin/WebObjects/powerpage.woa/wa/story?newsID=11384) that the 15" PowerBooks are "cleared for distribution" and will contain a 64MB ATI Graphics chip.



yossele
Sep 15, 2003, 10:00 AM
The only thing I can say is
"Either YES Either NO"
We'll just have to wait another day.

nicolas
Sep 15, 2003, 10:01 AM
doesn´t the 15" tibook already have 64mb ati graphics?

yossele
Sep 15, 2003, 10:04 AM
Yepp! you're right it has an "ATI Mobility Radeon 9000 64MB DDR video"

NicoMan
Sep 15, 2003, 10:08 AM
I guess that would have to be a Radeon Mobility 9600 or something. They wouldn't dare to put a 9000 in it, would they? Right? Right? Anyone?

edit: typo

Fadl
Sep 15, 2003, 10:17 AM
ATI 9600 Pro with 128MB would be really really nice :)

QCassidy352
Sep 15, 2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Fadl
A ATI 9600 Pro with 128MB would be really really nice :)

that'd be better than all of the powermac options except for the 9800... I don't think they'll do it. 9600 with 64 MB seems much more reasonable and likely. That would still be very nice.

Stelliform
Sep 15, 2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by Fadl
A ATI 9600 Pro with 128MB would be really really nice :)

But would definitely be too hot and power hungry. But I sure hope they don't leave it alone. imagine how behind it would be in another 10 months when the next poerbooks come out. :D

Ti_Pousin
Sep 15, 2003, 10:32 AM
Woowowoo, probably a radeon 9600, great! nVidia mobility solution suck! my radeon 9000 mobility 32VRAM in my current powerbook is good, I love it, I would never have bought the 17' pb in it's current spec cause of the video card. Tought I would like to change my Ti 867MHz 15' for a Ti 1GHz 15' only to get the 64 VRAM.

Sometime I love playing games:cool:

chazmox
Sep 15, 2003, 10:40 AM
But now they're sounding more and more like MacWhispers...

First there was the rumor about the OS on the new PB ( some had 10.2.7, some had Panther, some had Panther lite??? ) and next the rumor the PB's would not be announced in Paris.

Now that every reliable site says that Paris will be it, the come out with this CYA ( cover your ass ) story that the PB's are ready to ship...

Geez! :rolleyes:

esheep2001
Sep 15, 2003, 10:40 AM
...Steve Jobs himself could walk into my house, put a 15" AL pbook into my hands , turn on the RDF, show me how great it is and I'd still not believe they existed!

It's gonna take a lot more than a few web sites saying they've been released to make me believe I can tell you.

I'm not convinced the dual G5's really exist anymore so why should I believe any PBook announced in Paris is likely to be any more real?

:-(

Sceptical?! Moi!?
e.

G4scott
Sep 15, 2003, 10:43 AM
The radeon mobility 9600 would put some serious graphics power in the PowerBook...

They would also make the 12" PowerBook very nice...

I just think nVidia's mobile offerings are underpowered, and even though Apple is under space/power/heat constraints with their PowerBooks, it wouldn't hurt to put in a very nice graphics card.

hvfsl
Sep 15, 2003, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by Stelliform
But would definitely be too hot and power hungry. But I sure hope they don't leave it alone. imagine how behind it would be in another 10 months when the next poerbooks come out. :D

Having 128mb instead of 64mb in the graphics card would not make more heat or take anymore power that you would notice the difference. Putting more RAM in a PB G4 does not make any difference to the heat or power usage.

Anyway I will be very supprised if it is not a Radeon 9600M since Apple has improved the graphics in almost every powerbook revision since the original PB G3 came out.

PB G3 233-292Mhz ATI Rage LT
PB G3 233-300Mhz ATI Rage Pro M
PB G3 300-400Mhz ATI Rage 128M
PB G3 400-500Mhz ATI Rage 128M
PB G4 400-500Mhz ATI Rage 128M AGP
PB G4 550-667Mhz ATI Radeon 7200M
PB G4 667-800Mhz ATI Radeon 7500M
PB G4 867-1000Mhz ATI Radeon 9000M

ABassCube
Sep 15, 2003, 11:01 AM
Yeah the 9600 would be nice in the PowerBooks. It would definitely have 64 megs; they would NOT have more V-RAM than all of the normal Power Mac models (not custom-ordered). They really have to put the 9800 or at least the 9600 with 128 megs of RAM in at least the dual 2 GHz machine. The graphics cards in Macs are still pathetic compared to PCs. :(

Adam

Puppies
Sep 15, 2003, 11:36 AM
The rumors sites are (mostly) acting like this round of 'books will use Nvidia chips. Hopefully that will mean that at least some of the 'books will have 128MB Geforce 5600s. They're not as good as the Radeon 9600, but they're a heck of a lot better than what's in there now...

As long as some of the 'books have either Radeon 9600s or Geforce 5600s with 128MB I'll think Apple's at least being semi-competant. If they stick something like a Geforce 5200 in a high end model, I'll laugh and go upgrade my x86 box instead :(

BigJayhawk
Sep 15, 2003, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by Puppies
If they stick something like a Geforce 5200 in a high end model, I'll laugh and go upgrade my x86 box instead :(

Now there's a mix-up for you.

If Apple doesn't put such-and-such in the Powerbooks then I'll go spend my money on a Windoze Desktop?!?

What? Are you going to pack your desktop into your backback and set it up whenever you want to use it?

Not very relevant to a Powerbook Discussion.

NicoMan
Sep 15, 2003, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by Fadl
ATI 9600 Pro with 128MB would be really really nice :)
I think we are more looking at a graphic card from the Mobility range than the Pro range...

lynnpye
Sep 15, 2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by BigJayhawk
Now there's a mix-up for you.

If Apple doesn't put such-and-such in the Powerbooks then I'll go spend my money on a Windoze Desktop?!?

What? Are you going to pack your desktop into your backback and set it up whenever you want to use it?

Not very relevant to a Powerbook Discussion.

Not to defend a Windows use, but it does make a little sense if a) you opted for a Powerbook as a desktop replacement (as I did) and b) you chose to do so knowing that your laptop needs were minimal but still useful in some circumstances (as it is for me).

I only rarely have need to unplug my PB 15" and travel with it, but it was useful enough for me to want the portability and I could do without some of the PowerMac features, like expandability.

Unfortunately with the new G5 options available currently only on the desktop, and since we are considering upgrading my wife's iMac, I'm torn. She wants a laptop, but I'm not sure about how long the current models are going to remain available. I would prefer to step in with the first G5 PB iteration. Ugh. Choice. :confused:

bentmywookie
Sep 15, 2003, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by hvfsl
Having 128mb instead of 64mb in the graphics card would not make more heat or take anymore power that you would notice the difference. Putting more RAM in a PB G4 does not make any difference to the heat or power usage.


I could be totally wrong, but if there is more RAM, doesn't that mean there is more circuitry (hence resistance) that needs to be driven? That would increase the power requirements right?

Honestly though, I know very little EE and CompE so if someone knows better and could clarify that would be great.

cb911
Sep 15, 2003, 03:32 PM
so Apple has never released a PowerBook without a video upgrade. i just hope they continue that trend with the new PB's. i'm not too sure whether or not to trust PowerPage.org though...:rolleyes:

Puppies
Sep 15, 2003, 03:52 PM
BigJayhawk:
Now there's a mix-up for you.

If Apple doesn't put such-and-such in the Powerbooks then I'll go spend my money on a Windoze Desktop?!?

What? Are you going to pack your desktop into your backback and set it up whenever you want to use it?

Not very relevant to a Powerbook Discussion.


Lynnpye:
Not to defend a Windows use, but it does make a little sense if a) you opted for a Powerbook as a desktop replacement (as I did) and b) you chose to do so knowing that your laptop needs were minimal but still useful in some circumstances (as it is for me).

I only rarely have need to unplug my PB 15" and travel with it, but it was useful enough for me to want the portability and I could do without some of the PowerMac features, like expandability.

Unfortunately with the new G5 options available currently only on the desktop, and since we are considering upgrading my wife's iMac, I'm torn. She wants a laptop, but I'm not sure about how long the current models are going to remain available. I would prefer to step in with the first G5 PB iteration. Ugh. Choice.

I was going to buy a PowerBook and use it as my main system at home and work. Increasingly I’m realizing that as much as I hate to admit it, the three main apps I use work better (or only) on Windows…so it’s already iffy as to whether I should be buying a Mac at all right now. If Apple puts outdated hardware in a PowerBook, that makes my decision that much easier.

pgwalsh
Sep 15, 2003, 03:57 PM
It will be great to have a 9600M in the PowerBooks... I hope the LCD's have higher res.. too.

Puppies
Sep 15, 2003, 04:05 PM
Ugh, I hope they DON'T have higher resolution screens, or that it's an option. I wouldn't buy an LCD with a higher resolution than the 15 and 17" PowerBooks already have.

Plutoniq
Sep 15, 2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by hvfsl
Anyway I will be very supprised if it is not a Radeon 9600M since Apple has improved the graphics in almost every powerbook revision since the original PB G3 came out.

PB G3 233-292Mhz ATI Rage LT
PB G3 233-300Mhz ATI Rage Pro M
PB G3 300-400Mhz ATI Rage 128M
PB G3 400-500Mhz ATI Rage 128M
PB G4 400-500Mhz ATI Rage 128M AGP
PB G4 550-667Mhz ATI Radeon 7200M
PB G4 667-800Mhz ATI Radeon 7500M
PB G4 867-1000Mhz ATI Radeon 9000M

I know this is just nit-picking.....but;

PB G3 300-400Mhz ATI Rage LT Pro
PB G3 400-500Mhz ATI Rage 128M AGP

The Rage 128M inside the Pismo is on a 2X AGP bus. I'm unsure about the Lombard, but I think that was just on a standard PCI bus.

p

Plutoniq
Sep 15, 2003, 04:12 PM
double-post

Plutoniq
Sep 15, 2003, 04:17 PM
........And by that notion, Apple did release two Powerbooks in a row with the same ATI Rage 128M AGP, actually three if you include the Ibook:)

p'z

neutrino23
Sep 15, 2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by ABassCube
The graphics cards in Macs are still pathetic compared to PCs. :(


There probably are some graphics cards in pcs that are better than those used in Macs. Do you really mean to assert that those used in Macs are "pathetic" compared to all graphics cards installed in pcs?

Most of the graphics chips installed in Japanese notebooks are junk. When I read the specs they often use Intel chips or some other graphics chip I've never heard of. Rarely do they use ATI or NVidia. Worse, they often don't even have dedicated graphics memory. They share graphics memory with main memory. How pathetic is that?

MrMacMan
Sep 15, 2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by chazmox
But now they're sounding more and more like MacWhispers...

First there was the rumor about the OS on the new PB ( some had 10.2.7, some had Panther, some had Panther lite??? ) and next the rumor the PB's would not be announced in Paris.

Now that every reliable site says that Paris will be it, the come out with this CYA ( cover your ass ) story that the PB's are ready to ship...

Geez! :rolleyes:

Who power?

Panther lite, thats bull.

There is a reason we have a Laptop and not a PDA.

Its called functionality.

As for the 9600, that would kick seiouse arse!

:D

macnews
Sep 15, 2003, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Puppies
I was going to buy a PowerBook and use it as my main system at home and work. Increasingly I’m realizing that as much as I hate to admit it, the three main apps I use work better (or only) on Windows…so it’s already iffy as to whether I should be buying a Mac at all right now. If Apple puts outdated hardware in a PowerBook, that makes my decision that much easier.

How does something like a video card make it "outdated?" With laptops I haven't seen many choices w/o resulting in big time $$$ for better video cards. I certainly understand your problem with the apps but unless you do graphics work (am assuming no games since it is for work) most of the video cards work just fine for office, the web and many other apps - even photoshop.

Puppies
Sep 15, 2003, 05:47 PM
How does something like a video card make it "outdated?" With laptops I haven't seen many choices w/o resulting in big time $$$ for better video cards. I certainly understand your problem with the apps but unless you do graphics work (am assuming no games since it is for work) most of the video cards work just fine for office, the web and many other apps - even photoshop.

I want good game performance, and the GPU is the most important component to that. Laptops at best are using mid-range components that are already much lower end than I'd buy for a desktop system. There's no way I'd buy a laptop that didn't have one of the absolute best available GPUs in it (ie the Radeon 9600 or Geforce 5650 with 128MB).

hvfsl
Sep 15, 2003, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by bentmywookie
I could be totally wrong, but if there is more RAM, doesn't that mean there is more circuitry (hence resistance) that needs to be driven? That would increase the power requirements right?

Honestly though, I know very little EE and CompE so if someone knows better and could clarify that would be great.

You are right, having more memory means that more power is used, but the extra amount that is used is so small, you would not notice it. Having 128mb instead of 64mb would only reduce battery life by about 2 minuites.

hvfsl
Sep 15, 2003, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Plutoniq
........And by that notion, Apple did release two Powerbooks in a row with the same ATI Rage 128M AGP, actually three if you include the Ibook:)

p'z

I should have just done the G4 PBs. All the G4 powerbooks have had a better graphics card each revision (if you don't include the 12in and 17in where the graphics cards are the same speed as the iBook's Radeon 7500.)

tizza
Sep 15, 2003, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by yossele

We'll just have to wait another day.
How many times have we heard this ... BUT on this occasion you may at LAST be right!! :)

CubeHacker
Sep 15, 2003, 06:29 PM
Lets hope its an ATI card. Check out the benchmarks in this article

http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.html?i=1866

The Nvidia chip is completly slaughtered, sometimes by as much as 200%!

fixyourthinking
Sep 15, 2003, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by cb911
so Apple has never released a PowerBook without a video upgrade. i just hope they continue that trend with the new PB's. i'm not too sure whether or not to trust PowerPage.org though...:rolleyes:

Actually they released the Pismo G4 Ti w/ same video

Both ATi Rage 128M 8MB video and G3 400 G3 500 G4 400 G4 500 - which at the time was very little difference - mainly just a very MINOR screen update (15" is wider not taller)

cb911
Sep 15, 2003, 08:32 PM
okay, but recently you have to admit that Apple has been on a roll keeping the VRAM upto spec with it's PC counterpart. lets hope that Apple decides to keep it rollin! :D

BigJayhawk
Sep 15, 2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by neutrino23
Rarely do they use ATI or NVidia. Worse, they often don't even have dedicated graphics memory. They share graphics memory with main memory. How pathetic is that?

Yeah, no kidding! We have a brand new DELL desktop at work that SHARES MEMORY!?!?

2.2 Ghz Pentium and it takes like 10 seconds for all of the ICONS to redraw on the DESKTOP when starting up!!!

You get what you pay for!

Puppies
Sep 15, 2003, 09:46 PM
Yeah, no kidding! We have a brand new DELL desktop at work that SHARES MEMORY!?!?

2.2 Ghz Pentium and it takes like 10 seconds for all of the ICONS to redraw on the DESKTOP when starting up!!!

You get what you pay for!

Yeah, but that's a super low-end system. To be fair, you can build a very high end 3Ghz P4 system with a Radeon 9800 Pro for about $1000.

I'd still like to see how the G5 stacks up against the P4 in games... I remember back when the PowerPC 604 thrashed a Pentium 1 in games, but I'm not holding my breath that a G5 can beat a P4 until I actually see benchmarks. (I had my hopes up about the G4 being a miracle chip-it is really great at a given clock speed, but it's like less than half the clock rate of Intel's chips).

pgwalsh
Sep 15, 2003, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by Puppies
To be fair, you can build a very high end 3Ghz P4 system with a Radeon 9800 Pro for about $1000.


PriceWatch Quotes:

Pentium 4 3 Ghz: $383.00
Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB: $294.75
RAM PC 3500 512MB: $80.00
Motherboard MSI 875P NEO-FIS2R: $136.00
Hard Drive Maxtor Serial ATA: $100

Total: $993-

This system does not include a keyboard, mouse, superdrive, case or OS. I didn't use the top of the line parts for everything either. You'll be running around different stores trying to get these prices, pita. You'll probably run another 300 to 400 at least after buying the rest of your equipment, unless, you go cheap. The case will run nearly $100 for a pretty good one.

Some of those stores on pricewatch seem sketch. You'll never know if you'll get a good board or proc or not. Could end up costing you a lot more time than you thought... Time = Money...

Puppies
Sep 16, 2003, 02:12 AM
Pentium 4 3 Ghz: $383.00
Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB: $294.75
RAM PC 3500 512MB: $80.00
Motherboard MSI 875P NEO-FIS2R: $136.00
Hard Drive Maxtor Serial ATA: $100

Total: $993-

This system does not include a keyboard, mouse, superdrive, case or OS. I didn't use the top of the line parts for everything either. You'll be running around different stores trying to get these prices, pita. You'll probably run another 300 to 400 at least after buying the rest of your equipment, unless, you go cheap. The case will run nearly $100 for a pretty good one.

Some of those stores on pricewatch seem sketch. You'll never know if you'll get a good board or proc or not. Could end up costing you a lot more time than you thought... Time = Money...

Okay, so my quick mental estimate was off by a couple hundred bucks. My point stands, x86 hardware is much, much cheaper, even high quality x86 hardware. Here are components I quickly threw in the cart from Newegg. You could shave off another few hundred dollars easily by going with a slower processor or GPU, or you could go up to a DVD+-RW, add a better sound card, or whatever. But regardless, it probably kicks the Dual 2GHz G5’s butt at games, for less than half the price (and probably beats-for example-the 1.6Ghz G5 at everything for significantly less). Believe me, I like Apple, and I *HATE* Microsoft, but I’m not going to pretend Apple’s hardware is a better value on a price/performance basis.

-ANTEC LIFE STYLE SERIES SONATA PIANO BLACK Model# Sonata w/ ANTEC TRUE380 380W Power Supply
-Sony CDRW/DVD Combo Drive Model CRX300E/A OEM
-Seagate 120GB 7200rpm SATA Hard Drive Barracuda 7200.7 ST3120026AS – OEM
-Intel Pentium 4 (800 FSB) Motherboard Model BOXD865PERL - RETAIL
-Intel Pentium 4 / 3.0CGHz 512k socket 478 Hyper Threading Technology 800 MHz FSB – RETAIL
-Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition with Service Pack SP1a – OEM
-SAPPHIRE OEM RADEON 9800 PRO 128MB DVI/TV 8X AGP BULK

Plus $95 for 512MB of PC3200 RAM from Crucial, and the total comes to:
$1259 (plus maybe $40 for a mouse and keyboard), so basically $1300 for a very nicely equipped x86 system with near top of the line components, from one of the most reputable stores on the net.

At any rate, my original point was that I'm already on the edge about dropping $3000 on a Powerbook anyway. A bad GPU is going to tilt me towards spending (far less) money on my existing systems.

Guess we'll find out pretty soon :) I've pretty much made up my mind that if the 'Books are G5s, I'm buying. If the prices are significantly lowered, with a decent hardware upgrade, I'm buying. Otherwise, I'll just have to make up my mind about it :(

Puppies
Sep 16, 2003, 05:23 AM
Yay! About time they get updated! They should have been out 3 months ago, and the higher-end models should have 128MB video RAM (and their performance is questionable given the lack of L3 cache), but basically this is a solid upgrade. Dang, a couple of months ago I would have bought one right away, but now I'm not 100% sure.

pgwalsh
Sep 16, 2003, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by Puppies
Okay, so my quick mental estimate was off by a couple hundred bucks. My point stands, x86 hardware is much, much cheaper, even high quality x86 hardware. Here are components I quickly threw in the cart from Newegg. You could shave off another few hundred dollars easily by going with a slower processor or GPU, or you could go up to a DVD+-RW, add a better sound card, or whatever. But regardless, it probably kicks the Dual 2GHz G5’s butt at games, for less than half the price (and probably beats-for example-the 1.6Ghz G5 at everything for significantly less). Believe me, I like Apple, and I *HATE* Microsoft, but I’m not going to pretend Apple’s hardware is a better value on a price/performance basis.

-ANTEC LIFE STYLE SERIES SONATA PIANO BLACK Model# Sonata w/ ANTEC TRUE380 380W Power Supply
-Sony CDRW/DVD Combo Drive Model CRX300E/A OEM
-Seagate 120GB 7200rpm SATA Hard Drive Barracuda 7200.7 ST3120026AS – OEM
-Intel Pentium 4 (800 FSB) Motherboard Model BOXD865PERL - RETAIL
-Intel Pentium 4 / 3.0CGHz 512k socket 478 Hyper Threading Technology 800 MHz FSB – RETAIL
-Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition with Service Pack SP1a – OEM
-SAPPHIRE OEM RADEON 9800 PRO 128MB DVI/TV 8X AGP BULK

Plus $95 for 512MB of PC3200 RAM from Crucial, and the total comes to:
$1259 (plus maybe $40 for a mouse and keyboard), so basically $1300 for a very nicely equipped x86 system with near top of the line components, from one of the most reputable stores on the net.

At any rate, my original point was that I'm already on the edge about dropping $3000 on a Powerbook anyway. A bad GPU is going to tilt me towards spending (far less) money on my existing systems.

Guess we'll find out pretty soon :) I've pretty much made up my mind that if the 'Books are G5s, I'm buying. If the prices are significantly lowered, with a decent hardware upgrade, I'm buying. Otherwise, I'll just have to make up my mind about it :( It's all good. Just thought for a top of the line system your guesstimate was a bit off. Plus I'd never do Windows XP home edition... I built a great AMD system that was about 1k when I put it together. It's great, but I still use my G3 400 (800mhz upgrade) for most things.

I too am looking at the PowerBook....