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MacRumors
Nov 12, 2007, 10:12 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Intel released (http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20071111comp.htm?iid=pr1_releasepri_20071111m) 16 of their new Penryn Core 2 Extreme and Xeon processors today. The new chips incorporate the new "Hi-k" metal gate formula and also incorporate a smaller 45-nanometer manufacturing process. These changes deliver faster and more energy-efficient processors.

While they did introduce a Core 2 Extreme Qx9750 quad-core processor with SSE4, our attention has focused on Intel's new Xeon processors, which makes up the bulk of Intel's announcements today.
New to the Intel line-up of server processors are 15 server dual-core and quad-core 45nm Hi-k Intel Xeon processors. The 12 new quad-core chips boast clock speeds ranging from 2GHz up to 3.20GHz, with front side bus speeds (FSB) up to 1600MHz, and cache sizes of 12MB. The three new dual-core chips feature clock speeds of up to 3.40GHz, an FSB of up to 1600MHz, and cache sizes of 6MB.

The new 5400 Xeon chips are compatible with existing Xeon platforms and sets a number of benchmark world records, according to Intel. More data is available (http://www.intel.com/products/processor/xeon5000/index.htm) at Intel's site.

Apple has been rumored (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/05/apple-buying-up-high-end-penryn-processors/) to be buying up the high end 3.2GHz Penryn Xeon processors which feature a faster 1600MHz bus and 12MB of L2 cache for an upcoming Mac Pro revision. Apple currently uses the 5100 Xeon Woodcrest (Quad core Macs) or 5300 Xeon Clovertown (8-core Macs) processors.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/12/intel-announces-45-nm-penryn-processors/)



CJD2112
Nov 12, 2007, 10:14 AM
So would these chipsets fit into the sockets of the current Mac Pro's for upgradeability (although voiding warranty)?

Wild-Bill
Nov 12, 2007, 10:16 AM
This week has GOT to be the week for the Mac Pro update to drop.

If it doesn't, then it is a true reflection of how Apple could care less about its professional customers. The Mac Pro update is well past the point of overdue.

I wonder if they are going to price BTO options according to the market, and not into the stratosphere like they usually do.


Stratosphere (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/11/12/apple-charges-fortune-memory)

wrldwzrd89
Nov 12, 2007, 10:16 AM
They very well might, depending on how "compatible with previous Xeons" is defined. However, you would NOT get the benefit of the faster bus speed by just slotting in a new CPU into your Mac Pro.

happydude
Nov 12, 2007, 10:17 AM
so will apple's announcement of new/updated mac pro's be tomorrow (tuesday) or MWSF?

darthraige
Nov 12, 2007, 10:17 AM
What are you waiting for Apple? LETS GO!!!!!!!! :mad::confused:

Squonk
Nov 12, 2007, 10:17 AM
Any day now for updated MP's!!! I'm thinking tomorrow (11/12)! :D:D:D

CANEHDN
Nov 12, 2007, 10:18 AM
Now we can only hope to see 45nm chips in the new iMacs on the next revision.

Darkroom
Nov 12, 2007, 10:20 AM
to all the poor souls who have been waiting in line to get the next Mac Pro and have been waiting for so long, dawn is breaking...

hopefully this means new Mac Pros + Displays in January... and an update to the iMac would be nice then too (that's the long line i'm in currently) :p

HLdan
Nov 12, 2007, 10:21 AM
This week has GOT to be the week for the Mac Pro update to drop.

If it doesn't, then it is a true reflection of how Apple could care less about its professional customers. The Mac Pro update is well past the point of overdue.

I wonder if they are going to price BTO options according to the market, and not into the stratosphere like they usually do.


Stratosphere (http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/11/12/apple-charges-fortune-memory)

You make it sound like the Mac Pro's are currently too underpowered to even run Photoshop. Is there something seriously wrong with the current 8 core config besides it not be Penryn?

wrldwzrd89
Nov 12, 2007, 10:22 AM
For those of you wondering why Apple hasn't updated the Mac Pro yet, I firmly believe that they were waiting for an announcement like this one from Intel. They probably knew that the GPUs in the current Mac Pro line were long in the tooth, and I firmly believe that they will do something about it in the next Mac Pro revision - coming sooner than we expect. Probably at 9:00 AM Pacific Time, 11/12/2007.;)

longofest
Nov 12, 2007, 10:22 AM
so will apple's announcement of new/updated mac pro's be tomorrow (tuesday) or MWSF?

I very much doubt it would appear at MWSF. You don't typically see pro products at MWSF, unless it's a laptop.

Digital Skunk
Nov 12, 2007, 10:31 AM
High-end 8 core Mac Pro with updated graphics and more RAM and HDD space standard here I come!

Wild-Bill
Nov 12, 2007, 10:34 AM
to all the poor souls who have been waiting in line to get the next Mac Pro and have been waiting for so long, dawn is breaking...
hopefully this means new Mac Pros + Displays in January...

Uhh,.... NO. We are expecting this week, NOT January. If they wait until January, that's a year and a half the Mac Pro will go without an update. That is totally unacceptable.


You make it sound like the Mac Pro's are currently too underpowered to even run Photoshop. Is there something seriously wrong with the current 8 core config besides it not be Penryn?

Where in my post did I say the word "underpowered" ?? And as far as something being seriously wrong, I'd prefer not to buy a machine that features three year old graphics cards.

suneohair
Nov 12, 2007, 10:36 AM
You make it sound like the Mac Pro's are currently too underpowered to even run Photoshop. Is there something seriously wrong with the current 8 core config besides it not be Penryn?

Yes it doesn't offer value for the money. Especially as of today. They can run photoshop, but the new ones will run it better. 45nm, SSE4, faster per clock than the Woodcrests, faster bus, cooler running.

Plus the current 8-core config is power hungry and too expensive considering what hit today. You would have to be a fool to buy the current 8-core after today. Hell, you would have to be a fool to buy a Mac Pro now.

plumbingandtech
Nov 12, 2007, 10:36 AM
Uhh,.... NO. We are expecting this week, NOT January. If they wait until January, that's a year and a half the Mac Pro will go without an update. That is totally unacceptable.

Well with respect. It is going to have to acceptable since one can not buy an updated mac pro since they do not exist. So WE will have to wait.


on topic:

LOVE that boost in FSB. Should be very noticable.

and the specs for Virutalizatlion look great.

Plus the current 8-core config is power hungry and too expensive considering what hit today. You would have to be a fool to buy the current 8-core after today. Hell, you would have to be a fool to buy a Mac Pro now.


Professionals. Which these machines are target at would have no prob. buying now as the return on investement for people that use these machines to their fullest extent (video , AE, Shake, 3D) will have their money paid back to them in short order in time savings.

Digital Skunk
Nov 12, 2007, 10:37 AM
You make it sound like the Mac Pro's are currently too underpowered to even run Photoshop. Is there something seriously wrong with the current 8 core config besides it not be Penryn?

The only thing I see as being a problem with the Mac Pro lineup is the price that you pay for the GFX, standard RAM, standard HDD and superdrive options. I don't know too much about GFX cards but the options Apple has haven't changed for a solid year.

If I needed a high end machine tomorrow, then I would probably get one today, but since I don't need one for at least another 4 months then I will wait, and I might not need a Mac Pro, an iMac may serve me better. As for the BTO options, they aren't that bad. First off you never get it configured by Apple unless you have the money to spend, that's how it works with all computer makers -- including Dell -- so Apple isn't doing anything different. Second you can always do thing cheaper yourself by ordering the parts you need and installing them after market.

soosy
Nov 12, 2007, 10:38 AM
Mini-tower please! I finally transitioned from my PowerMac G5 to the new AlumiMac but I'd love to return to Mac Pro land....

darthraige
Nov 12, 2007, 10:38 AM
Uhh,.... NO. We are expecting this week, NOT January. If they wait until January, that's a year and a half the Mac Pro will go without an update. That is totally unacceptable.

Annnnnndddddddd these so called, "Penryn" chips (lol) will be 2 1/2 months OLDER by then. :D

CJD2112
Nov 12, 2007, 10:40 AM
I find it interesting that people seem to overlook that the cinema displays haven't been seriously revamped since 2004. THOSE babies are in need of some serious redesigning.

spydr
Nov 12, 2007, 10:41 AM
I think apple will announce in its own style at Macworld - "shipping today!"

Lenovo and others who have made 'announcements' aren't gonna get it out any sooner anyway. So I don't buy the argument that Apple has to show that it cares for its pro customers by making a similar 'announcement'.

Wait and it will happen – perhaps ahead of some of these 'announcers'

Digital Skunk
Nov 12, 2007, 10:41 AM
Mini-tower please! I finally transitioned from my PowerMac G5 to the new AlumiMac but I'd love to return to Mac Pro land....

Then buy a Mac Pro. :)

Digital Skunk
Nov 12, 2007, 10:43 AM
I think apple will announce in its own style at Macworld - "shipping today!"

Lenovo and others who have made 'announcements' aren't gonna get it out any sooner anyway. So I don't buy the argument that Apple has to show that it cares for its pro customers by making a similar 'announcement'.

Wait and it will happen – perhaps ahead of some of these 'announcers'

I agree, plus, most Pros don't care about when Apple announces anything. And it doesn't show that Apple doesn't care about its pro market. That was just a stupid statement to tell you the truth. Professionals will be waiting just like everyone else, complaining about it and claiming that Apple doesn't care is more a matter of personality and opinion, not professional status.

OdduWon
Nov 12, 2007, 10:43 AM
Are these chips just desktop/server class? Or will we see a iMac Quad soon? Are their Mobile Quads yet? Lol A Mini Quad would be sick!

RichP
Nov 12, 2007, 10:45 AM
Compatible with existing systems sounds very interesting. Beside a reduction in FSB, I wonder if any other "featuresets" are lost if these are compatible with existing machines.

suneohair
Nov 12, 2007, 10:46 AM
Are these chips just desktop/server class? Or will we see a iMac Quad soon? Are their Mobile Quads yet? Lol A Mini Quad would be sick!

These are workstation/sever chips. No other quads for sometime, unless they release a mini tower Mac.

liv4Mac
Nov 12, 2007, 10:46 AM
So would these chipsets fit into the sockets of the current Mac Pro's for upgradeability (although voiding warranty)?

I hear that it's backward compatible with some current MBs in other words the chips have the same pin configurations of the last chipsets. for your sake, I hope the MBs on the current Mac Pros are one of the compatible ones.

If the rumors about Apple ordering the first batch of the 3.2ghz chips then, Apple will most likely have a new motherboard considering that the L2 caches are higher.

suneohair
Nov 12, 2007, 10:47 AM
Compatible with existing systems sounds very interesting. Beside a reduction in FSB, I wonder if any other "featuresets" are lost if these are compatible with existing machines.

Well you would be losing the benefits of the whole Seaburg platform, which is more significant than just FSB. You would be taking a significant speed hit by using Penryns in the current Mac Pros.

whatever
Nov 12, 2007, 10:52 AM
Uhh,.... NO. We are expecting this week, NOT January. If they wait until January, that's a year and a half the Mac Pro will go without an update. That is totally unacceptable.

Where in my post did I say the word "underpowered" ?? And as far as something being seriously wrong, I'd prefer not to buy a machine that features three year old graphics cards.

Unacceptable to who? I just don't get it. I needed a more powerful machine for work a over a year ago so I bought the a Mac Pro. When the Quad option became available I thought, that's nice, but I really don't need the extra speed. The next machines we bought were the fast machines, but I still kept my "old" computer. Why, because honestly it didn't make a huge difference.

Do people who say things like the above comment even buy these products and use them in the real world? I'm just curious. You know you could have the fastest CPUs in the world, but if you're just using the computer to surf the web, check e-mails and use iTunes, does it really make a difference?

Honestly I'm surprised more people aren't up in arms that Quicktime doesn't support Dolby Digital or that the same options that exit for the iPod Shuffle does not exist for the iPhone or the other iPods (such as AutoFill or convert higher bit rate songs to 128 kbps AAC.

Wild-Bill
Nov 12, 2007, 10:57 AM
Unacceptable to who? I just don't get it. I needed a more powerful machine for work a over a year ago so I bought the a Mac Pro. When the Quad option became available I thought, that's nice, but I really don't need the extra speed. The next machines we bought were the fast machines, but I still kept my "old" computer. Why, because honestly it didn't make a huge difference.

Do people who say things like the above comment even buy these products and use them in the real world? I'm just curious. You know you could have the fastest CPUs in the world, but if you're just using the computer to surf the web, check e-mails and use iTunes, does it really make a difference?

Hey, if you don't get it than you don't get it. At least you admitted as much. The Mac Pro has been virtually untouched since its inception and is now the oldest machine in Apple's lineup. The other thing that hasn't changed is the pricing. Hey, if you feel comfortable paying 2006 prices for 2006 technology at the end of 2007, be my guest. I'm not about to pay Apple for old technology, and certainly not at the prices they charge (x1900xt for $400.00 anyone???)

Digital Skunk
Nov 12, 2007, 10:58 AM
Unacceptable to who? I just don't get it. I needed a more powerful machine for work a over a year ago so I bought the a Mac Pro. When the Quad option became available I thought, that's nice, but I really don't need the extra speed. The next machines we bought were the fast machines, but I still kept my "old" computer. Why, because honestly it didn't make a huge difference.

Do people who say things like the above comment even buy these products and use them in the real world? I'm just curious. You know you could have the fastest CPUs in the world, but if you're just using the computer to surf the web, check e-mails and use iTunes, does it really make a difference?

The other issue is that they claim that Pros are the ones complaining, and I can promise them that no professional is wasting their time worrying about when a Mac Pro update is coming. The facts are simple... the current Mac Pro is outdated by more than a year... so what. If you need a Mac Pro now then get one now and upgrade the parts when you need to... the next Mac Pro will be coming SOON. Tomorrow or in January, so what... but for those that are waiting it will come and it will be updated... buy it whenever it comes out.

I am more surprised that Apple hasn't done anything with the ACDs. A new Mac Pro would be very welcomed on my desk, but I would really like some ACDs to go with it, and there aren't any other options that give me Firewire hubs. A new higher spec'd 24" or 30" ACD would be very nice.

AidenShaw
Nov 12, 2007, 10:58 AM
I very much doubt it would appear at MWSF. You don't typically see pro products at MWSF, unless it's a laptop.

Actually, quite a few pro products at MWSF...

http://support.apple.com/specs/

MWSF 2006 - MacBook Pro announced
MWSF 2004 - Xserve G5 and Xserve RAID (SFP) announced
MWSF 2003 - PowerBook G4 announced
MWSF 2001 - PowerMac G4 and PowerBook G4 announced
MWSF 1999 - PowerMac G3 announced

It looks like the pattern is every other year for a Pro announcement - so MWSF 2008 is due!

Eidorian
Nov 12, 2007, 11:00 AM
Not that we didn't already know about Penryn. :rolleyes:

Come on Apple do something with it.

mdntcallr
Nov 12, 2007, 11:01 AM
I find it interesting that people seem to overlook that the cinema displays haven't been seriously revamped since 2004. THOSE babies are in need of some serious redesigning.

Good catch, My hope is the new Mac Pro's have:
1- Graphics cards with HDMI output, high quality output,
2- Blu Ray player, DVD+/-R Option for Blu-Ray +R and +/-RW

and .... of course new monitors with 2+ HDMI inputs and speakers so that you can use it for other uses, ie TV and etc.

My real hope would also be for a medium sized tower that would be mid range in power and upgradable. those imacs are underpowered and not upgradable. yet i don't know if i need the full power of a workstation. so give us a chance to make up our own minds apple!

liv4Mac
Nov 12, 2007, 11:03 AM
Unacceptable to who? I just don't get it. I needed a more powerful machine for work a over a year ago so I bought the a Mac Pro. When the Quad option became available I thought, that's nice, but I really don't need the extra speed. The next machines we bought were the fast machines, but I still kept my "old" computer. Why, because honestly it didn't make a huge difference.

Do people who say things like the above comment even buy these products and use them in the real world? I'm just curious. You know you could have the fastest CPUs in the world, but if you're just using the computer to surf the web, check e-mails and use iTunes, does it really make a difference?

Why would you buy a Mac Pro if your task for using it are not in a professional level?

From Wild Bill's avatar he is probably a musician just like I am. I for sure would benefit from a multi-core processor. The higher the better for me. If one does not understand that, then you are not ready for a Mac "Pro". Not to mention the animation that I also render.

whatever
Nov 12, 2007, 11:06 AM
Hey, if you don't get it than you don't get it. At least you admitted as much. The Mac Pro has been virtually untouched since its inception and is now the oldest machine in Apple's lineup. The other thing that hasn't changed is the pricing. Hey, if you feel comfortable paying 2006 prices for 2006 technology at the end of 2007, be my guest. I'm not about to pay Apple for old technology, and certainly not at the prices they charge (x1900xt for $400.00 anyone???)

So you would prefer that Apple refreshes their prices and product line weekly like Dell? Also the Mac Pro is just over a year old, so to say that we're paying 2006 prices is a little misleading. It started shipping in late August early September of 2006.

I guess my point is that yes, it would be nice to have faster machines at lower prices, but if Apple chooses to hold off for until January, it's not the end of the world! They're not being stupid. They know what they're doing and they are moving product!

With that said, having bought a Mac Pro, I would consider upgrading to a new system if they changed the enclosure (which is hasn't changed since the G5) and make it smaller (but not a mini Tower!) but still be able to support all of my hard disks.

Also I can't wait to get rid of my 30" ACD for a glass version (like the new iMacs) with a built in iSight, it's so much nicer!

benpatient
Nov 12, 2007, 11:18 AM
I have been holding out on replacing a dual G5 that badly needs replacing because when the first mac pros came out there wasn't enough of a difference to justify the cost. I figured there would be a few updates since we've moved to intel processors, and so either speed would go up or prices would go down. Neither has happened, and so I, a "professional" graphic designer with a big pile of money waiting to press "buy" on a new, updated mac pro, am in a holding pattern that has lasted over a year. I will not "give in" and just buy the current generation.

Would you buy a G4 iPod for the original MSRP today?

I sure wouldn't.

That's effectively what apple is selling to professionals right now.

400 dollars for a graphics card that goes for 1/3 that in PC land and is WAAAAAAY behind the curve?
Nope.

I'll be needing an 8800 GT, please. My last machine went from 10.3 to 10.5.0. The next one will need to take me through to the end of 10.6 at least, preferably 10.7.

Adobe will have bogged down the creative suite with a million more lines of code by then, and a machine that felt "frisky" last year will feel arthritic by then. My G5 is puttering along, and admirably so, but it was the best of the best not that long before the current mac pros were released. my macbook is actually faster with everything except reading/writing to disc. That's embarrassing.

When we were sheltered in PPC land, we could pretend like a processor speed bump every year was OK and that our machines were better than PCs anyway, you just couldn't tell because PPC performance "didn't translate" directly to x86 performance. Now that excuse is gone. There are faster processors available for the pro market. There are MUUUUUUCH faster graphics cards available, and some people actually need them. A new Mac Pro with an 8800 GT and plenty of room for RAM and HDDs would future-proof my computing needs for at least a couple of years, probably more like 5.

Get on with it, already, Apple.

eastcoastsurfer
Nov 12, 2007, 11:31 AM
So you would prefer that Apple refreshes their prices and product line weekly like Dell? Also the Mac Pro is just over a year old, so to say that we're paying 2006 prices is a little misleading. It started shipping in late August early September of 2006.


I think that's the main problem. Since Apple keeps their prices constant (as the rest of the industry gradually goes down), they need to stay on top of updates. When the MBP got SR I bought one immediately. At the time they were a good deal compared to equivalent machines from the other makers. Now that they haven't changed in awhile and their prices obviously haven't dropped, they are generally more expensive than the equivalent competitor.

So yes, Apple either needs to update regularly or lower prices over time.

EagerDragon
Nov 12, 2007, 11:34 AM
so will apple's announcement of new/updated mac pro's be tomorrow (tuesday) or MWSF?

Wednesday, Monday is a Holliday

Stephen123
Nov 12, 2007, 11:37 AM
I've been waiting for a new MacPro for about a year. I could have bought one, but it would have not been cost effective (a waste of my money) since I would then have been stuck with that outdated model for another 3 or 4 years. It's been way too long since there was a 'real' MacPro update.

gugy
Nov 12, 2007, 11:44 AM
MacPro tomorrow or Wednesday PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

MacinDoc
Nov 12, 2007, 11:45 AM
Wednesday, Monday is a Holliday
Well, Intel launched the chips today, so they're not treating it as a holiday. I vote for a Mac Pro release tomorrow. No way it will wait until MWSF. Apple already has the ultraportable to announce there, and maybe an iPhone update and iMac update.

zdobson
Nov 12, 2007, 11:46 AM
... I can promise them that no professional is wasting their time worrying about when a Mac Pro update is coming.

I'm a pro and waiting/wondering when an update will come. In the past year I've gone from shooting jpegs for newspapers to shooting RAW for commercial use and weddings. My 3.5 year old PowerBook is not cutting it anymore and there's no way I'm buying 1+ year old technology when we're so close to an upgrade.

Also, while they do announce some pro technology at MWSF, it's usually not more than one thing (since 2001) and it's very likely they will announce a new ultra-portable, so...

Also, people like Aiden are talking about this mini-tower... If this did come to fruition, would this new machine make the Mac Pro overkill for Photoshop work?

snowleopard
Nov 12, 2007, 11:47 AM
Professionals. Which these machines are target at would have no prob. buying now as the return on investement for people that use these machines to their fullest extent (video , AE, Shake, 3D) will have their money paid back to them in short order in time savings.

Hahahaha! You're assuming that all professionals who work in this industry are loaded with cash with the work just rolling in and clients beating down the front door like angry Trojans with Trump-like wallets! Hilarious! I've worked in video for quite a long time - for firms, TV stations, and freelance - there is NO WAY that anyone I have worked for, or with, would not be in tune with this update, and unwilling to wait a month or two at this point considering the current Mac Pro is almost 16 months old. We're all waiting, all holding our breaths. Oh, and most of us have and make a lot less money than you realize.

Personally, I think Apple is going to go for the "before Christmas" launch, before waiting until MWSF. Mostly a hunch, sure, but also to match HP's delivery dates, and because they'll have a new laptop (and maybe new CD's) there to show off.

darthraige
Nov 12, 2007, 11:47 AM
so will apple's announcement of new/updated mac pro's be tomorrow (tuesday) or MWSF?

Wednesday. (Due to Holiday or a major surprise from Apple for tomorrow.) It will either be the best day of our Mac life, or the worst. lol

Jonny427
Nov 12, 2007, 11:54 AM
Today is not a "work" holiday like Thanksgiving.. and technically Veteran's Day was Sunday. Just my little self-assurance that apple will announce tomorrow =P

After looking up PCIe Gen 2 cards, I noticed that the only consumer level card compatible with the faster interface is the new 8800GT. Here's hoping for a BTO option!

darthraige
Nov 12, 2007, 11:56 AM
Well, Intel launched the chips today, so they're not treating it as a holiday. I vote for a Mac Pro release tomorrow. No way it will wait until MWSF. Apple already has the ultraportable to announce there, and maybe an iPhone update and iMac update.

Interesting. That is true, and also, Apple probably already did press releases early last week since they have this stuff ahead of time. So Apple could be all set to release tomorrow. If the machines are ready to ship, they just need to update the stupid website. lol ... Tomorrow would indeed be awesome!

darthraige
Nov 12, 2007, 11:57 AM
Today is not a "work" holiday like Thanksgiving.. and technically Veteran's Day was Sunday.

Even more true, since I am working today... At a production company. lol ... Tomorrow hopefully is crazy MacPro release day.

darthraige
Nov 12, 2007, 12:02 PM
At what time did the Santa Rosa MacBook refresh happen at? I forget. Was it at midnight or early early in the morning?

tk421
Nov 12, 2007, 12:04 PM
So you would prefer that Apple refreshes their prices and product line weekly like Dell?

Yes!



The fact that it is done by Dell and is not done by Apple does not mean it's stupid. Of course, there has to be a happy medium as well. Why not adjust BTO component prices every couple of months, for example?

Jonny427
Nov 12, 2007, 12:13 PM
At what time did the Santa Rosa MacBook refresh happen at? I forget. Was it at midnight or early early in the morning?

It was sometime early in the morning, but I think this update warrants more than a stealthy appearance.

Magnus387
Nov 12, 2007, 12:17 PM
New to the site but had to post this:

Alienware just updated their site and are now selling desktops with the new intel 45nm chip.

http://www.alienware.com/product_detail_pages/Area-51_ALX/area-51_overview.aspx?SysCode=PC-AREA51-ALX-R7&SubCode=SKU-DEFAULT

Apple can't be far behind

twoodcc
Nov 12, 2007, 12:21 PM
so hopefully they will update the mac pros tomorrow

Eidorian
Nov 12, 2007, 12:23 PM
so hopefully they will update the mac pros tomorrowI think that's what we've been waiting for. :D

sweedigel
Nov 12, 2007, 12:25 PM
Omg, I hope too for tomorrow. Can't wait two more month... :(

Magnus387
Nov 12, 2007, 12:28 PM
Also,

I don't know if anyone noticed this, but the alienware options do include a 6x blu-ray double layer drive. Apple should do the same... although a hd-dvd/blu-ray combo drive would be quite tasty.

andy721
Nov 12, 2007, 12:32 PM
I very much doubt it would appear at MWSF. You don't typically see pro products at MWSF, unless it's a laptop.

Says who? Apple should have released the pynryn mac pro today sense they bought millions of them already. I hate surprises & Delays!

AidenShaw
Nov 12, 2007, 12:50 PM
New to the site but had to post this:

Alienware just updated their site and are now selling desktops with the new intel 45nm chip.

http://www.alienware.com/product_detail_pages/Area-51_ALX/area-51_overview.aspx?SysCode=PC-AREA51-ALX-R7&SubCode=SKU-DEFAULT

Apple can't be far behind

Note that's a Yorkfield (single socket) quad CPU on an X38 motherboard.

At 4.0 GHz!

The Area-51 ALX system is now available with the quad core Intel Core 2 Extreme QX9650 overclocked from 3.0GHz to 4.0 GHz core clock speed!

The Mac Pro would use the Harpertown (dual socket) quad CPU with a Seaburg (i5400) chipset.

tk421
Nov 12, 2007, 12:59 PM
Note that's a Yorkfield (single socket) quad CPU on an X38 motherboard.

At 4.0 GHz!

I don't know much about overclocking. Is overclocking a chip that much stable? If so, why doesn't everyone do it? If not, why risk stability for speed?

corywoolf
Nov 12, 2007, 01:18 PM
so will apple's announcement of new/updated mac pro's be tomorrow (tuesday) or MWSF?
I say tomorrow. They don't want to bore the audience at MWSF with a professional machine. MWSF is the place for mainly consumer level products. I would hope Apple would announce the Mac Pro within the next eight days.

Edit: I just checked Apple's website and they still list the Mac Pro as shipping within 24 Hours. So either it gets released tomorrow or they wait until MWSF.

bilbo--baggins
Nov 12, 2007, 01:29 PM
TThe facts are simple... the current Mac Pro is outdated by more than a year... so what. If you need a Mac Pro now then get one now and upgrade the parts when you need to... the next Mac Pro will be coming SOON. Tomorrow or in January, so what... but for those that are waiting it will come and it will be updated... buy it whenever it comes out.

While the MacPros are upgradable, there are many aspects of them where you cannot simply replace the parts.

Take my PowerMac G5 for example: not enough USB ports but none of the 5 USB PCI cards I tried worked properly, and my USB hub now doesn't work properly with Leopard, too many things need to be plugged into the built in USB ports; graphics card: Apple have typically offered very few options for replacing graphics cards; bluetooth - I'm still using a D-link USB bluetooth DBT-120, if it is still possible to get the built in bluetooth I don't think they ever produced a Bluetooth 2 module for my model, and as far as I know there is no reliable bluetooth 2 USB dongle available for Macs. These are just a few examples as to how these upgradable Macs aren't so upgradable, and mine is only 2 and a half years old. When the new Mac Pros come out, there are bound to be improvements that cannot be matched by replacing parts on the old models.

The other major issue for wanting the new models asap is that the old models are effectively over priced. Who in their right mind wound pay for a Mac Pro today, when the new models will be significantly better for the same money. For those who intend keeping it until it's too out-dated, the new models may be capable of running the latest OS and software for perhaps a year or more longer than the current models. So, even for those who don't absolutely have to have the fastest performance, it doesn't make economic sense for anyone who doesn't absolutely need to buy one today.

darthraige
Nov 12, 2007, 01:41 PM
I just checked Apple's website and they still list the Mac Pro as shipping within 24 Hours. So either it gets released tomorrow or they wait until MWSF.

MacBooks always said "ships within 24 hours." Even before the Santa Rosa updates. So seeing a change in shipping wouldn't happen before an update anyway.

ChrisA
Nov 12, 2007, 01:43 PM
Then buy a Mac Pro. :)

Back in the days of the Powermac G4 one could buy an upgradable tower system for $1,500. One would think that with th price of electronics falling Apple could offer a $1,500 upgradeable tower system for $1,500 today. In 2007 Apples towers system start at $1,000 higher than they were in 1997.

I'll wait untill Mac World 2008 before building one myself.

MacsRgr8
Nov 12, 2007, 01:45 PM
This can't come soon enough.

I'm very, very anxious to find out what the rest of this Mac Pro will be like...

- Pricing
- GFRX ?!?!?!?! (...please...)
- HW RAID card
- Looks :cool:

suneohair
Nov 12, 2007, 01:47 PM
While the MacPros are upgradable, there are many aspects of them where you cannot simply replace the parts.

Take my PowerMac G5 for example: not enough USB ports but none of the 5 USB PCI cards I tried worked properly, and my USB hub now doesn't work properly with Leopard, too many things need to be plugged into the built in USB ports; graphics card: Apple have typically offered very few options for replacing graphics cards; bluetooth - I'm still using a D-link USB bluetooth DBT-120, if it is still possible to get the built in bluetooth I don't think they ever produced a Bluetooth 2 module for my model, and as far as I know there is no reliable bluetooth 2 USB dongle available for Macs. These are just a few examples as to how these upgradable Macs aren't so upgradable, and mine is only 2 and a half years old. When the new Mac Pros come out, there are bound to be improvements that cannot be matched by replacing parts on the old models.

The other major issue for wanting the new models asap is that the old models are effectively over priced. Who in their right mind wound pay for a Mac Pro today, when the new models will be significantly better for the same money. For those who intend keeping it until it's too out-dated, the new models may be capable of running the latest OS and software for perhaps a year or more longer than the current models. So, even for those who don't absolutely have to have the fastest performance, it doesn't make economic sense for anyone who doesn't absolutely need to buy one today.

Well if you research the USB cards you can find ones that work. I got an adaptec which states Mac compatibility, for $10. And it works in my G4 and on the first go. I didn't need to do anything but put it in.

As far as bluetooth, it is best to get it from Apple. That is what I am doing. And in general quality USB dongles have always worked for me.

I agree with the rest, it is foolish to buy now especially when all the pieces are in place for a revision. I also don't think it is a "tomorrow or january thing," I don't see anything reason why they couldn't wait a few weeks and release it.

Digital Skunk
Nov 12, 2007, 01:56 PM
I'm a pro and waiting/wondering when an update will come. In the past year I've gone from shooting jpegs for newspapers to shooting RAW for commercial use and weddings. My 3.5 year old PowerBook is not cutting it anymore and there's no way I'm buying 1+ year old technology when we're so close to an upgrade.

Also, while they do announce some pro technology at MWSF, it's usually not more than one thing (since 2001) and it's very likely they will announce a new ultra-portable, so...

Also, people like Aiden are talking about this mini-tower... If this did come to fruition, would this new machine make the Mac Pro overkill for Photoshop work?

I don't think any new mini tower would cut it in the professional world unless you had a budget to maintain. The mini tower that users want is more for gaming purposes and tinkering with the insides, trust me... I wanted it for those reasons as well. Since one may not come in our lifetime, I have come to grips with it and have made the decision to choose between the high end iMac and sacrifice upgradeability for price, the low-end Mac Pro and sacrifice price for upgradeability, or the mid range to high end 8 core Mac Pro, and just go all out and take out a second mortgage.

I think Apple will give us our Mac Pro before the end of January next year. Hopefully sooner, but if not sooner than before January so it will be here. I would love to grab a 17" MBP and Mac Pro by Feb. but I know I won't have the cash for both, only one then the other, and I am putting my money on the portable system that has done me very well this past 6 months. The dual G5 I have can hold out a little longer for me, so any Mac Pro that comes won't be in my vision for at least another year.

There won't be an Apple ultra-portable notebook at MWSF 08. There may be a redesigned 13.3" MacBook Pro and new MacBook Pros sporting Penryn but nothing below 13.3" in a less than 3 lbs. case. I think this MW will yield us our Mac Pro update, a MBP update to Penryn, and maybe a new rental scheme for the iTS and new toys like an updated Apple TV and Airport Express with 11n. Hopefully Apple will give us pros new high-end monitors with more FW400/800 ports and consumers a lesser version with just the current ports in a 22" and 24" version for what everyone else is charging. Maybe a new mini tower, or just an updated Mac Mini.

The Mac Pro will never be overkill in the pro world, overkill now means run of the mill two years from now, and "Shoot I may have to update" 4 years from now. The staying power of Apple's pro gear is simply amazing. Dual 1.42 GHz Power Mac G4s are still going for around $1000 or so.

darthraige
Nov 12, 2007, 01:57 PM
I just had this "Chat Now" convo with an Apple person on the website. lol Obviously he's gonna dodge all questions about a MacPro, but I found this interesting...


You are chatting with Randal, an Apple Expert

Apple: Hi, my name is Randal. Welcome to Apple!

Apple: How may I help you today?

Me: Looking to buy a MacPro, is this product being updated tomorrow?

Apple: No, there is no update for that.

Me: Is this an automated response? lol

Apple: No, I am a real person.

Me: Are you just not allowed to say if there is an update coming? Rumors are flying that a new MacPro is debuting tomorrow or Wednesday. Just don't want to miss out on that or just to order one now.

Apple: There is no announcement of any updates. You can keep visiting our site for any updates.

Me: I'll revisit tomorrow and hope for the best. Thank you for your time.

bilbo--baggins
Nov 12, 2007, 02:04 PM
Well if you research the USB cards you can find ones that work. I got an adaptec which states Mac compatibility, for $10. And it works in my G4 and on the first go. I didn't need to do anything but put it in.

Sorry to wander off topic but...

I had no problems with USB cards when I had a PowerMac G4. I hate to admit it, but I did spend a considerable amount of time researching USB cards for my model of G5, even going so far as contacting technical support of the manufacturers, buying and trying various cards/brands, posting on forums, reading xlr8yourmac. It is a fact that not a single person was able to report the successful use of a USB card in my model of PowerMac G5 (dual 2.3GHz).

shawnce
Nov 12, 2007, 02:04 PM
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071112-intel-unveils-16-new-45nm-processors.html

suneohair
Nov 12, 2007, 02:07 PM
They wouldn't know dude. Seriously.

Digital Skunk
Nov 12, 2007, 02:09 PM
While the MacPros are upgradable, there are many aspects of them where you cannot simply replace the parts.

Take my PowerMac G5 for example: not enough USB ports but none of the 5 USB PCI cards I tried worked properly, and my USB hub now doesn't work properly with Leopard, too many things need to be plugged into the built in USB ports; graphics card: Apple have typically offered very few options for replacing graphics cards; bluetooth - I'm still using a D-link USB bluetooth DBT-120, if it is still possible to get the built in bluetooth I don't think they ever produced a Bluetooth 2 module for my model, and as far as I know there is no reliable bluetooth 2 USB dongle available for Macs. These are just a few examples as to how these upgradable Macs aren't so upgradable, and mine is only 2 and a half years old. When the new Mac Pros come out, there are bound to be improvements that cannot be matched by replacing parts on the old models.

The other major issue for wanting the new models asap is that the old models are effectively over priced. Who in their right mind wound pay for a Mac Pro today, when the new models will be significantly better for the same money. For those who intend keeping it until it's too out-dated, the new models may be capable of running the latest OS and software for perhaps a year or more longer than the current models. So, even for those who don't absolutely have to have the fastest performance, it doesn't make economic sense for anyone who doesn't absolutely need to buy one today.

Finding BT for any system is hard enough. Most computers that don't have it built in rely on a dongle, and dongles are crap pieces of hardware that get lost in a matter of days, or break in a matter of months. Especially that POS D-Link... I had to buy two of those and lost them both. I agree with the need for Apple to bring one out ASAP, but there is no reason to think that everyone is saying the same thing, and that Apple is doing anybody a disservice. The only people Apple is pissing off in my opinion is their stock holders. Most people needing a Mac Pro are waiting quietly by their G5s and G4s dreaming of their new system... like me.

Back in the days of the Powermac G4 one could buy an upgradable tower system for $1,500. One would think that with th price of electronics falling Apple could offer a $1,500 upgradeable tower system for $1,500 today. In 2007 Apples towers system start at $1,000 higher than they were in 1997.

I'll wait untill Mac World 2008 before building one myself.

I remember those days... in fact you could get one for around $1300 at one point. Those were the days... I got my G5 for $1800 and now you can't even go to the store and get anything below $2500. If I were a college student I would be struggling to get the Quad 2.0GHz Mac Pro via the online store. I would love for Apple to continue making different BTO options of the Mac Pro that take the price down to at least $1799, but I don't think Apple can or will do it. The Xeon processors and the FB DIMMS of the MacPro are too expensive, and Apple is not having any trouble pushing the MP. My newspaper bought four of them about a month ago, and I am sure other companies that could care less about the coolest newest GFX card are buying them in the same manner.

Apple instead is trying to make the iMac fit that bill, and the only thing that makes the iMac not as great is that it's an all in one that you can't upgrade outside of the RAM and HDD, gamers are pissed about that. The high end iMac is a beast, and a screamer in 3D games, but next year may not be the case. Right now, Apple could intro a new machine to fit between the MP and iMac that is the mini tower everyone has been asking for, and charge a premium of $1499 for it with 2GB of RAM a 250 GB HDD an 8800 card and dual core intel standard and everyone would go nuts. Alas, Apple may actually know what they are doing, and may not intro anything outside of a new MBP and updated MPs with Penryn.

suneohair
Nov 12, 2007, 02:10 PM
Sorry to wander off topic but...

I had no problems with USB cards when I had a PowerMac G4. I hate to admit it, but I did spend a considerable amount of time researching USB cards for my model of G5, even going so far as contacting technical support of the manufacturers, buying and trying various cards/brands, posting on forums, reading xlr8yourmac. It is a fact that not a single person was able to report the successful use of a USB card in my model of PowerMac G5 (dual 2.3GHz).

Hmm. We have a couple of those at work. I will try my card out and see what I can come up with.

The only problem I can see is that that model is PCI-X. I am pretty sure there is two way backward compability with those slots, so PCI-X cards would work in a PCI slot and PCI card would work in PCI-X slots.

What kind of cards did you try?

darthraige
Nov 12, 2007, 02:11 PM
They wouldn't know dude. Seriously.

I know, it was just fun. That and I am still convinced it was an automated response. :D

Freis968
Nov 12, 2007, 02:24 PM
I find it interesting that people seem to overlook that the cinema displays haven't been seriously revamped since 2004. THOSE babies are in need of some serious redesigning.

I agree with you. As an iMac owner WAITING for the right time to upgrade to the Mac Pro, I am wanting to do so but also WAITING for an updated Cinema with built in mic/webcam as well...HOPEFULLY!!!

whatever
Nov 12, 2007, 02:29 PM
I just had this "Chat Now" convo with an Apple person on the website. lol Obviously he's gonna dodge all questions about a MacPro, but I found this interesting...


You are chatting with Randal, an Apple Expert
Apple: Hi, my name is Randal. Welcome to Apple!
Apple: How may I help you today?
Me: Looking to buy a MacPro, is this product being updated tomorrow?
Apple: No, there is no update for that.
Me: Is this an automated response? lol
Apple: No, I am a real person.

Me: Are you just not allowed to say if there is an update coming? Rumors are flying that a new MacPro is debuting tomorrow or Wednesday. Just don't want to miss out on that or just to order one now.
Apple: There is no announcement of any updates. You can keep visiting our site for any updates.
Me: I'll revisit tomorrow and hope for the best. Thank you for your time.
So what's interesting about that chat?

It's common knowledge that an Apple employee, even if they have knowledge, will not speak of an unreleased product before it is officially announced by Apple.

So my question is why would you waste "Randal's" time by asking him loaded questions that either he is not allowed to answer (regardless of whether or not he knows the answer, which in my experience he does not know).

Also if you were really interested in buy a new Mac Pro today and Apple upgraded the machine tomorrow, they would normally send you the revised machine (of course if it's a replacement model of what you ordered).

darthraige
Nov 12, 2007, 02:35 PM
So what's interesting about that chat?

It's common knowledge that an Apple employee, even if they have knowledge, will not speak of an unreleased product before it is officially announced by Apple.

So my question is why would you waste "Randal's" time by asking him loaded questions that either he is not allowed to answer (regardless of whether or not he knows the answer, which in my experience he does not know).

Also if you were really interested in buy a new Mac Pro today and Apple upgraded the machine tomorrow, they would normally send you the revised machine (of course if it's a replacement model of what you ordered).

Whatever, whatever. :cool:

I also did ask other Mac related questions that I did not include in that convo.

andy721
Nov 12, 2007, 02:40 PM
I just had this "Chat Now" convo with an Apple person on the website. lol Obviously he's gonna dodge all questions about a MacPro, but I found this interesting...


You are chatting with Randal, an Apple Expert

Apple: Hi, my name is Randal. Welcome to Apple!

Apple: How may I help you today?

Me: Looking to buy a MacPro, is this product being updated tomorrow?

Apple: No, there is no update for that.

Me: Is this an automated response? lol

Apple: No, I am a real person.

Me: Are you just not allowed to say if there is an update coming? Rumors are flying that a new MacPro is debuting tomorrow or Wednesday. Just don't want to miss out on that or just to order one now.

Apple: There is no announcement of any updates. You can keep visiting our site for any updates.

Me: I'll revisit tomorrow and hope for the best. Thank you for your time.

I did the same thing but I forgot who I was talking to.

liv4Mac
Nov 12, 2007, 02:49 PM
I'm wondering why this was not posted.
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/11/12/intel_says_mac_pro_bound_harpertown_xeons_set_speed_records.html

darthraige
Nov 12, 2007, 02:55 PM
I'm wondering why this was not posted.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81053

I posted that at 9:31am in the other MacPro threads. Guess I forgot this one.

Which was this...

Interesting article.... Most of what we know already, but still....

intel_says_mac_pro_bound_harpertown_xeons_set_speed_records (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/11/12/intel_says_mac_pro_bound_harpertown_xeons_set_speed_records.html)

Here... #1856...

2007 Harpertown Stoakley-Seaburg Motherboard With New Graphics Cards 8-Core Mac Pro (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=293910&page=75)

liv4Mac
Nov 12, 2007, 02:58 PM
I posted that in the other MacPro threads. Guess I forgot this one.

I had the wrong link and switched it to this
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/11/12/intel_says_mac_pro_bound_harpertown_xeons_set_speed_records.html

darthraige
Nov 12, 2007, 03:04 PM
I had the wrong link and switched it to this
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/11/12/intel_says_mac_pro_bound_harpertown_xeons_set_speed_records.html

Yea, and that's what I am talking about. lol :)

liv4Mac
Nov 12, 2007, 03:10 PM
Yea, and that's what I am talking about. lol :)
LOL :D

Introduction of the 8 cores in mid November to mid January is kind of vague isn't it?

I hope I'm not changing this thread... after all it's still about 45nm... right?

AidenShaw
Nov 12, 2007, 03:18 PM
I don't know much about overclocking. Is overclocking a chip that much stable? If so, why doesn't everyone do it? If not, why risk stability for speed?

The key to overclocking (within reason, of course) is that you need to keep the chip cool.

Alienware guarantees the stability of the system, but you are paying for the extra capacity heat sink and other cooling parts needed to keep the temperature of the CPU in the safe zone.

winterspan
Nov 12, 2007, 03:42 PM
You make it sound like the Mac Pro's are currently too underpowered to even run Photoshop. Is there something seriously wrong with the current 8 core config besides it not be Penryn?

um... yeah. It's called ALL THE OTHER OBSOLETE COMPONENTS!!

kinless
Nov 12, 2007, 03:46 PM
Introduction of the 8 cores in mid November to mid January is kind of vague isn't it?

Well, it should either happen before Thanksgiving (Nov. 22) or after New Year 2008 in January. No Mac products have been released in December for at least the past 5 years. (Doesn't mean they wouldn't change that trend, however...)

I'd like to see it this month, as I need a tax-deduction pretty badly right now (hehe). And I have $3000 ear-marked away for this new machine.

My Beige G3 needs to go!

winterspan
Nov 12, 2007, 03:49 PM
I think apple will announce in its own style at Macworld - "shipping today!"

Lenovo and others who have made 'announcements' aren't gonna get it out any sooner anyway. So I don't buy the argument that Apple has to show that it cares for its pro customers by making a similar 'announcement'.

The difference is Lenovo has been putting out updates to their Workstations every 4-5 months. The Mac Pro has *antiquated* video cards, and the standard RAM, Hardrive, etc configuration and PRICING is based on 12-16 months ago.
Apple needing to show their Professional customers that they are still valued has NOTHING to do with quickly announcing the use of Penryn chips, but in doing so it means that the rest of the system will be upgraded and newly priced.

bilbo--baggins
Nov 12, 2007, 03:52 PM
Hmm. We have a couple of those at work. I will try my card out and see what I can come up with.

The only problem I can see is that that model is PCI-X. I am pretty sure there is two way backward compability with those slots, so PCI-X cards would work in a PCI slot and PCI card would work in PCI-X slots.

What kind of cards did you try?

It's a bit irrelevant for me as I'll be replacing the G5 as soon as the Mac Pro update appears. I was just illustrating the point that some limitations of older models cannot simply be resolved by replacing parts.

The brands I tried included USB 2.0 PCI cards by Sonnet, SIIG and Belkin. All were supposed to be Mac compatible. The Sonnet card in particular was advertised as being G5 compatible.

At the time, I came to the conclusion that the issue was due to the following combination:

1) PowerMac G5 with PCI-X slots
2) Apple 20" Cinema Display with USB 2.0 ports (aluminium enclosure)
3) Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger
4) Third party USB 2.0 PCI card

The ports were unreliable with problems such as devices not being recognised after restarting the computer without unplugging and replugging them. It was around the time of 10.4.1 that I was having these issues.

I had an email from Sonnet Customer Services in June 2006 stating "We're hunting for a different supplier for our USB2 card as we continue to have reports of issues. So far, we haven't found a good replacement yet."

zdobson
Nov 12, 2007, 05:05 PM
How does Intel's next slated chip, Nehalem (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehalem_%28CPU_architecture%29), play into this current debate?

If Nehalem really is "the most significant new architectural changes as of today since the Pentium Pro back in 1995," (according to the wiki article linked above) and is supposed to be released in the second half of 2008, then wouldn't Apple wait until that chip to completely revamp the Mac Pro?

Of course they'll make major changes with Penryn, but why wait until MWSF when such a radical change is due in about a year? It seems like they would want to get penryn out asap to sell it as long as they can before nehalem is ready and do a blockbuster MWSF 09 release for nehalem.

suneohair
Nov 12, 2007, 05:17 PM
How does Intel's next slated chip, Nehalem (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehalem_%28CPU_architecture%29), play into this current debate?

If Nehalem really is "the most significant new architectural changes as of today since the Pentium Pro back in 1995," (according to the wiki article linked above) and is supposed to be released in the second half of 2008, then wouldn't Apple wait until that chip to completely revamp the Mac Pro?

Of course they'll make major changes with Penryn, but why wait until MWSF when such a radical change is due in about a year? It seems like they would want to get penryn out asap to sell it as long as they can before nehalem is ready and do a blockbuster MWSF 09 release for nehalem.

This could be the case. I will most likely sell my Penryn Mac Pro to get a Nehalem :D

liv4Mac
Nov 12, 2007, 05:18 PM
How does Intel's next slated chip, Nehalem (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehalem_%28CPU_architecture%29), play into this current debate?

If Nehalem really is "the most significant new architectural changes as of today since the Pentium Pro back in 1995," (according to the wiki article linked above) and is supposed to be released in the second half of 2008, then wouldn't Apple wait until that chip to completely revamp the Mac Pro?

Of course they'll make major changes with Penryn, but why wait until MWSF when such a radical change is due in about a year? It seems like they would want to get penryn out asap to sell it as long as they can before nehalem is ready and do a blockbuster MWSF 09 release for nehalem.The way I see it is that comparing the 65nm to 45nm is a big jump as oppose to comparing 45nm to 35nm. There will be a boost in speed but I don't think it will be significant.

What you may see with the 35nm technology is probably higher clock speed up to about 6ghz which I think will come out much later maybe in 2009

milo
Nov 12, 2007, 05:28 PM
Uhh,.... NO. We are expecting this week, NOT January. If they wait until January, that's a year and a half the Mac Pro will go without an update. That is totally unacceptable.

Regardless of what you think, if nobody else is shipping these before december or january, it may be unrealistic to expect apple to ship them this week. If the chips were available in quantity now, wouldn't someone be shipping them now?

New to the site but had to post this:

Alienware just updated their site and are now selling desktops with the new intel 45nm chip.

http://www.alienware.com/product_detail_pages/Area-51_ALX/area-51_overview.aspx?SysCode=PC-AREA51-ALX-R7&SubCode=SKU-DEFAULT

Apple can't be far behind

They may be selling them now, but they're not shipping them now. If you click on "ship date" they're saying December 28.

Until they actually ship, apple isn't "behind" at all.


And once again, I have to agree with all those in favor of a midtower (with the core 2 instead of xeon, they have quads of those now).

darthraige
Nov 12, 2007, 05:39 PM
Regardless of what you think, if nobody else is shipping these before december or january, it may be unrealistic to expect apple to ship them this week. If the chips were available in quantity now, wouldn't someone be shipping them now?

And if Apple bought up the processors to have exclusive rights in shipping tomorrow? :D

Mozutaka
Nov 12, 2007, 05:48 PM
Regardless of what you think, if nobody else is shipping these before december or january, it may be unrealistic to expect apple to ship them this week. If the chips were available in quantity now, wouldn't someone be shipping them now?

Exactly. This also doesn't discount the chance of an announcement in December or January, before MWSF. Hell, we might even get one of the planned December-release graphics cards if it takes that long.

Though, it's too bad Apple continues to charge what they do for the current Mac Pros, as I know some businesses need to buy them before year's end. I don't think "Apple is just being Apple" is a valid excuse anymore. If they want to be a serious competitor, their prices need to reflect the technology.

darthraige
Nov 12, 2007, 05:52 PM
If they want to be a serious competitor, their prices need to reflect the technology.

Which is why they might surprise us with a new MacPro tomorrow since they know their prices suck at the moment. :D

CWallace
Nov 12, 2007, 05:55 PM
And once again, I have to agree with all those in favor of a midtower (with the core 2 instead of xeon, they have quads of those now).

Trick is, for a lot of work I am finding one Core2 Extreme quad-core to be faster then two dual-core Xeons.

I am not sure Apple would want to release a Core2Extreme Quad tower as it might eat deeply into dual-socket Mac Pro sales.

milo
Nov 12, 2007, 05:55 PM
And if Apple bought up the processors to have exclusive rights in shipping tomorrow? :D

That would be very cool. But if it doesn't happen, it's disingenuous to describe apple as being "behind" when the earliest PC ship dates are a month or more off.

darthraige
Nov 12, 2007, 06:03 PM
That would be very cool. But if it doesn't happen, it's disingenuous to describe apple as being "behind" when the earliest PC ship dates are a month or more off.

Apple doesn't like being behind either. They want to be the best of the best. And currently, with this line...

"Clovertown processors — the fastest Quad-Core Intel Xeon available"

They're not. Well, after December something they won't be the fastest "available." So hopefully Apple bought up the first batch to release this week.

Wild-Bill
Nov 12, 2007, 06:08 PM
Regardless of what you think, if nobody else is shipping these before december or january, it may be unrealistic to expect apple to ship them this week. If the chips were available in quantity now, wouldn't someone be shipping them now?


You obviously missed the news a few weeks ago that stated that Apple has supposedly got first dibs on all these processors, putting other system builders in a predicament where they would only be able to produce initial orders only. Apple allegedly has got the first lot of these new processors spoken for. Therefore, it would be quite realistic for them to announce and ship new Mac Pros this week.

suneohair
Nov 12, 2007, 06:11 PM
Apple doesn't like being behind either. They want to be the best of the best. And currently, with this line...

"Clovertown processors — the fastest Quad-Core Intel Xeon available"

They're not. Well, after December something they won't be the fastest "available." So hopefully Apple bought up the first batch to release this week.

They are not the fastest as of today.

darthraige
Nov 12, 2007, 06:14 PM
They are not the fastest as of today.

Wait ignore what I said, didn't realize you said, "not" in the above statement. So therefore I deleted what I responded to you with. Wish I could just delete my response right now too.

suneohair
Nov 12, 2007, 06:16 PM
Even when no one actually has them until end of December? Or when Apple decides to ship them?

Somebody has them. Even the 2.80 is faster per clock than the Clovertown which is available now.

darthraige
Nov 12, 2007, 06:28 PM
Somebody has them. Even the 2.80 is faster per clock than the Clovertown which is available now.

Then Apple needs to step it up and impress us all tomorrow or Wednesday.

suneohair
Nov 12, 2007, 06:34 PM
Then Apple needs to step it up and impress us all tomorrow or Wednesday.

I don't know if Apple is treating this as a holiday. I would say no. But I am not sure. I think we will see it tomorrow.

AidenShaw
Nov 12, 2007, 06:35 PM
You obviously missed the news a few weeks ago that stated that Apple has supposedly got first dibs on all these processors...

You mean those rumours that someone heard from a friend in Tokyo who heard from his cousin in Taiwan whose girl friend's brother in China heard that Apple was buying all the 3.2 GHz Harpertowns?

suneohair
Nov 12, 2007, 06:35 PM
You mean those rumours that someone heard from a friend in Tokyo who heard from his cousin in Taiwan whose girl friend's brother in China heard that Apple was buying all the 3.2 GHz Harpertowns?

Source?

darthraige
Nov 12, 2007, 06:46 PM
You mean those rumours that someone heard from a friend in Tokyo who heard from his cousin in Taiwan whose girl friend's brother in China heard that Apple was buying all the 3.2 GHz Harpertowns?

Hahahaha. Oh my God. Wow. lol

AidenShaw
Nov 12, 2007, 06:51 PM
Hahahaha. Oh my God. Wow. lol

Source?

MR article: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=365004

Refers to: http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/10/05/intel-extreme-penryn-shortage

However, the high-rpm hummingbirds buzzing around Tokyo told us another reason yesterday, which sounds far more plausible to - Apple loves the Penryn. It covets both the Yorkfield Extreme for its mainstream boxes and Harpertown Xeons for the next Mac Pro. In particular, the massive memory throughput and SSE4 improvements help Mac-type apps shine more - think about an in-memory huge image manipulation task than needs both of these features.

So, the rumour says that Apple pretty much pre-booked all the amounts of top Penryn bins that could be booked for this year - especially the X548". This excludes the minimum quantities for other big vendors so that they will be able to claim at least starting to ship their stuff. Those other vendors will, in reality, mostly have to count on the "standard" Penryn speed bins, a notch or two below the top ones.

suneohair
Nov 12, 2007, 07:01 PM
MR article: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=365004

Refers to: http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/10/05/intel-extreme-penryn-shortage

I don't see a source for your little story linking all the way to China. If you want to debunk it do it with facts not sarcastic stories.

MacinDoc
Nov 12, 2007, 08:06 PM
Hmmm - new processors have been officially released by Intel (not IBM or Moto), but nobody can ship a system with them until the end of December? Who has all these newly released chips, then? Is Intel just sampling them at this time, or does someone have an exclusive for the first few batches? I guess we'll find out before the end of the month, and possibly tomorrow...

AidenShaw
Nov 12, 2007, 08:35 PM
I don't see a source for your little story linking all the way to China. If you want to debunk it do it with facts not sarcastic stories.

Pray tell, where do you find the "facts" to debunk an unsubstantiated rumour?

I think that my little "Chinese parody" makes as much sense as the hummingbirds.

And, by the way, if you were versed in ornithology you would know that hummingbirds are a New World species. They are only found in the Americas - no hummingbirds live in the wild in Europe, Asia, or Japan.

http://www.defenders.org/wildlife_and_habitat/wildlife/hummingbirds.php


I don't need to debunk a groundless rumour, all I need to do is to call it into question.

And wouldn't a story that starts with "hummingbirds in Tokyo" immediately make you wonder?

Not to mention the obvious error that "[Apple] covets both the Yorkfield Extreme for its mainstream boxes" is absurd - Apple's "mainstream box" is the mythical (and sorely needed) mini-tower. All of Apples "mainstream boxes" use laptop components - not the desktop quad Yorkfield.

A rumour that is so obviously nonsense on several levels is accepted as fact by the fanbois. Tsk-tsk....

Wild-Bill
Nov 12, 2007, 09:05 PM
blah blah words..... blah...more words....blah ..
A rumour that is so obviously nonsense on several levels is accepted as fact by the fanbois. Tsk-tsk....

We shall see quite soon. We shall SEE. :D


:apple:

By the way, the Inq. has been right on with a lot of things over the last year, a lot of things. And when they speak of "hummingbirds" I am sure you must know that means snitches who aren't supposed to say anything to anyone. Given Apple's rampant fascination with secrecy it doesn't surprise me that the Inquirer would quill up such a colorful statement to say "Someone who isn't supposed to talk about this did and told us...."

MacFly123
Nov 12, 2007, 09:36 PM
Yes I am excited for the Mac Pro update but I really really want new Cinema Displays, thinner, with built in iSight and remote, maybe a black border like the iMac, and enhanced specs etc. :)

If they don't announce those with the Mac Pro I am going to be very disappointed :(

suneohair
Nov 12, 2007, 10:15 PM
:eek:Tsk-tsk....

If you want to call into question the burden of proving it wrong is on you. I don't accept it as fact, but it is plausible.

I also liked how you managed to skip on the part where it says "and Harpertown Xeons for the next Mac Pro." Further, it might not be an error. A mythical box could be coming.

AidenShaw
Nov 12, 2007, 10:24 PM
If you want to call into question the burden of proving it wrong is on you. I don't accept it as fact, but it is plausible.

As Wild-Bill says - "We shall see quite soon. We shall SEE."

If the hummingbirds are right, by this time next week we'll be looking at Penryn Mac Pro unboxing videos.

If the hummingbirds are in fact a new world species, next week we'll be wondering (still) if we'll see new Mac Pros at MWSF'08...

I don't believe the hummingbirds, but within a week we'll know if I'm wrong.

___________

We're all reading tea leaves here, nobody has any facts....

i, Podius
Nov 12, 2007, 10:36 PM
It was sometime early in the morning, but I think this update warrants more than a stealthy appearance.

I suppose that all depends on what sort of update it is. If it's just an update to the components - Mother Board, CPU & Video Card, then there's no reason for a major announcement. The quiet change to the Apple Store website would be standard practice for this sort of an upgrade. (As with recent MacBook and MacBook Pro updates)

If, on the other hand, they go for changing the case (which frankly, I don't see why so many people are desperate for it - it seems fine to me) then they'll probably do a media event, like they did for the updated iMac. Personally, I hope that's not the case, because if it is, we won't be seeing updated Mac Pros this week - instead just a cryptic invite to an Apple media event that we all guess well ahead of time what it's for - and that would mean yet another week of waiting.

bigwig
Nov 12, 2007, 10:42 PM
The way I see it is that comparing the 65nm to 45nm is a big jump as oppose to comparing 45nm to 35nm. There will be a boost in speed but I don't think it will be significant.
Nehalem will first ship in 45nm. The 32nm shrink of Nehalem isn't till 2009. The 45nm Nehalem should, if Intel is right, be a big step up from the 45nm Penryn.

i, Podius
Nov 12, 2007, 10:42 PM
I don't know much about overclocking. Is overclocking a chip that much stable? If so, why doesn't everyone do it? If not, why risk stability for speed?

In order to keep the system stable, it just needs to be kept cool. Alienware has installed a liquid cooling system (http://www.alienware.com/product_detail_pages/Area-51_ALX/area-51_features.aspx?SysCode=PC-AREA51-ALX-R7&SubCode=SKU-DEFAULT#pdp-nav) to that effect - "All ALX P2 chassis are backed with chrome chassis accents and come standard with Alienware Liquid Cooling." (also worth noting is the "Chassis Comparison" on the side of that web-page, with the silhouette of "Competitor's Newest Entry" clearly being a Mac Pro :p - Alienware obviously sees them as gaming machines, even if certain members of the MacRumors community don't...). Liquid cooling is fairly common practice for over-clocking, and I'm sure it's perfectly safe, but frankly, I've never been comfortable with the idea of water inside my computer, though of course the old G5's had liquid cooling (http://www.overclockers.com.au/article.php?id=307166) as well.

i, Podius
Nov 12, 2007, 11:03 PM
Apple instead is trying to make the iMac fit that bill, and the only thing that makes the iMac not as great is that it's an all in one that you can't upgrade outside of the RAM and HDD, gamers are pissed about that. The high end iMac is a beast, and a screamer in 3D games, but next year may not be the case. Right now, Apple could intro a new machine to fit between the MP and iMac that is the mini tower everyone has been asking for, and charge a premium of $1499 for it with 2GB of RAM a 250 GB HDD an 8800 card and dual core intel standard and everyone would go nuts. Alas, Apple may actually know what they are doing, and may not intro anything outside of a new MBP and updated MPs with Penryn.

I think this is the clue to why we will never see an Apple mini tower. The only people who really want it are gamers, whose choice is currently:
buy an iMac, which is OK for current games, just be sure to sell it and buy a new one every time they get upgraded - or - drop a hefty stack of bills on a Mac Pro, and don't worry about it for a few years.

I don't think the absence of a mini tower is as simple as "it would cannibalise sales of the Mac Pro or iMac" as most people suggest - because as long as they're making profits on it, what does it matter which system Apple sells to you? Instead, it's that they'll be selling a system which doesn't need replacing as often as the iMac, but doesn't bring in as much cash as a Mac Pro - the end result being less cash for Apple - though, at the same time, it could increase sales and market share, which would increase earnings overall. Tricky stuff, no?

And the "Apple has obviously worked out that it's not a good idea" argument doesn't wash with me. Apple is a company, and any company - no matter how innovative and exciting - tends to get comfortable doing what it's doing - and it usually takes a significant upsetting force to change them. Apple itself, after all, nearly went bankrupt before it brought back Steve Jobs and initiated the current "Golden Age" of iMacs, OS X, iPods and Intel Chips. And as it was (if I recall correctly) Steve Jobs who got rid of the mid-range Mac in favour of the iMacs and PowerMacs delineation, do you really imagine that the transition to Intel is sufficient to make him rethink this decision? He doesn't seem like the sort of person that second-guesses, to me.

The other reason, of course, could be a design one. If Apple started selling a mini-tower, regular consumers (i.e. non-gamers) who are actually perfectly serviced by an iMac might choose to buy the tower instead. Apple obviously takes great pride in their designs, and the idea of people who might buy their beautiful all-in-one iMac moving to a messy tower & screen setup for no good reason might just fill them with such revulsion that they refuse to even contemplate it - an absurd business position? Of course. Strange for Apple? Well...

Timid&friendly
Nov 13, 2007, 01:30 AM
I'll tell you this. I have been working on macs professionally for 15 years and still do, but the moment the apple OS is available on a standard PC I switch!

If you can get the same results more cheaply then why stay with apple. They have already lost credibility with there range of monitors.... old outdated spec for the top price, honestly... the whole apple ethos is refine, re-evaluate and innovate... Mac users should do the same, times change and we need to as well, if the PC world offers a better product then only a stagnating fool will remain loyal to a product that is actually inferior in it's function.

I am prepared to sacrifice aesthetics for function if the price is right.

zedsdead
Nov 13, 2007, 05:08 AM
You obviously missed the news a few weeks ago that stated that Apple has supposedly got first dibs on all these processors, putting other system builders in a predicament where they would only be able to produce initial orders only. Apple allegedly has got the first lot of these new processors spoken for. Therefore, it would be quite realistic for them to announce and ship new Mac Pros this week.

I really don't think many people were mad at Apple for the speed of the Mac Pro...it the vastly outdated graphics cards, the 1 gig of Ram, and the small hard drive as a standard that is over a year old now...Apple really should have updated some of this when they released the option to add the 8-Core Clovertown chip.

I just dropped $2600 on a iMac, and I am glad I did, but it is insulting that the 24" doesn't come standard with 2 gigs of Ram. I can't imagine Apple not bumping it to at least 2 since the Macbook Pro's are at 2...

twoodcc
Nov 13, 2007, 06:23 AM
so who thinks the mac pros will be updated today?

babboxy
Nov 13, 2007, 06:30 AM
so who thinks the mac pros will be updated today?
noway

OllyW
Nov 13, 2007, 06:40 AM
so who thinks the mac pros will be updated today?

The UK Store would be down by now if any updates were coming. So, not today.

It's a good job you are all really patient and are happy to wait :D

babboxy
Nov 13, 2007, 06:50 AM
The UK Store would be down by now if any updates were coming. So, not today.

It's a good job you are all really patient and are happy to wait :D


I'm not sure what makes me more sick... my old computer or having to come here to check out the rumors every day :p:p:p

twoodcc
Nov 13, 2007, 07:00 AM
The UK Store would be down by now if any updates were coming. So, not today.

It's a good job you are all really patient and are happy to wait :D

i guess you're right. i was just curious though, really.

milo
Nov 13, 2007, 07:34 AM
Apple doesn't like being behind either. They want to be the best of the best. And currently, with this line...

"Clovertown processors — the fastest Quad-Core Intel Xeon available"

They're not. Well, after December something they won't be the fastest "available." So hopefully Apple bought up the first batch to release this week.

They're not NOW, or they won't be in a few weeks? Right now, is there anything faster available?

You obviously missed the news a few weeks ago that stated that Apple has supposedly got first dibs on all these processors, putting other system builders in a predicament where they would only be able to produce initial orders only. Apple allegedly has got the first lot of these new processors spoken for. Therefore, it would be quite realistic for them to announce and ship new Mac Pros this week.

Nope, I'm fully aware of that. And wasn't it a rumor, not "news"? Assuming it's true, even if they have all the fastest units locked up, that still doesn't mean that they necessarily have enough right now (if ANY right now) to start shipping this week. And if they're not ready to start shipping, they may hold an announcement until they are ready to ship (which still may be before PC companies ship). Don't forget, that rumor was only about the fastest chip, that doesn't mean apple has the other speeds available which they'd need unless they want to be shipping different speeds weeks apart.

They are not the fastest as of today.

So what faster chips are shipping today?

Somebody has them. Even the 2.80 is faster per clock than the Clovertown which is available now.

Who has them? Link? Where could I buy a machine with one of these new chips and have it shipped today?

Hmmm - new processors have been officially released by Intel (not IBM or Moto), but nobody can ship a system with them until the end of December? Who has all these newly released chips, then? Is Intel just sampling them at this time, or does someone have an exclusive for the first few batches? I guess we'll find out before the end of the month, and possibly tomorrow...

You really need to go back and read the original announcement from intel. They ANNOUNCED new processors yesterday, didn't release them all. In their announcement, they say that some of the chips aren't shipping for 45 days. Some are supposedly shipping now, but they don't say which and I have yet to see a source shipping any of them yet.

milo
Nov 13, 2007, 07:41 AM
I think this is the clue to why we will never see an Apple mini tower. The only people who really want it are gamers...

Absolutely not. Of course gamers are one part of the market, but there are many users who simply want a machine that doesn't include a monitor and isn't as crippled as a mini.

I agree with your reasoning about why apple hasn't done it yet. I'm sure they're convinced that they're protecting iMac sales, but I think they're doing it at the expense of gaining market share (and making more profit overall).

I'll tell you this. I have been working on macs professionally for 15 years and still do, but the moment the apple OS is available on a standard PC I switch!

If you can get the same results more cheaply then why stay with apple. They have already lost credibility with there range of monitors.... old outdated spec for the top price, honestly... the whole apple ethos is refine, re-evaluate and innovate... Mac users should do the same, times change and we need to as well, if the PC world offers a better product then only a stagnating fool will remain loyal to a product that is actually inferior in it's function.

I am prepared to sacrifice aesthetics for function if the price is right.

You can't get the same results more cheaply. And I don't believe that the PC world offers a better product. The problem with apple offering the OS as a software sale is that hardware sales and profits for the company would plummet. What's the use of gaining a ton of marketshare but decimating profits as a result? Ain't gonna happen. Ever.

I agree with you on monitors, apple really needs to get realistic with their pricing of peripherals and BTO items like drives and memory.

MacinDoc
Nov 13, 2007, 07:59 AM
You really need to go back and read the original announcement from intel. They ANNOUNCED new processors yesterday, didn't release them all. In their announcement, they say that some of the chips aren't shipping for 45 days. Some are supposedly shipping now, but they don't say which and I have yet to see a source shipping any of them yet.
So who has the ones that are supposedly shipping now? That way my question.

AidenShaw
Nov 13, 2007, 09:20 AM
So who has the ones that are supposedly shipping now? That way my question.

HP has them as options on the DL3x0G5 systems:


Woodcrest
Dual Core Intel® Xeon® 5110 (1.60GHz, 1066 FSB) Processor [Subtract $230.00]
Dual Core Intel® Xeon® 5120 (1.86GHz, 1066 FSB) Processor [Subtract $100.00]
Dual Core Intel® Xeon® 5130 (2.0GHz, 1333 FSB) Processor
Dual Core Intel® Xeon® 5140 (2.33GHz, 1333 FSB) Processor [Add $180.00]
Dual Core Intel® Xeon® 5148 LV (2.33GHz, 1333 FSB) Processor [Add $350.00]
Dual Core Intel® Xeon® 5150 (2.66GHz, 1333 FSB) Processor [Add $480.00]
Dual Core Intel® Xeon® 5160 (3.00GHz, 1333 FSB) Processor [Add $670.00]
Clovertown
Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® E5310 (1.60GHz, 1066 FSB) Processor [Subtract $180.00]
Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® E5320 (1.86GHz, 1066 FSB) Processor [Subtract $80.00]
Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® L5320 (1.86GHz, 1066MHz FSB) Processor [Subtract $30.00]
Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® E5335 (2.00GHz, 1333MHz FSB, 2x4MB L2 cache) Processor [Add $20.00]
Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® E5345 (2.33GHz, 1333MHz FSB, 2x4MB L2 cache) Processor [Add $121.00]
Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® X5355 (2.66GHz, 1333MHz FSB, 2x4MB L2 cache) Processor [Add $470.00]
Harpertown
Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® E5405 (2.00GHz, 1333MHz FSB, 80W) Processor [Subtract $179.00]
Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® E5410 (2.33GHz, 1333MHz FSB, 80W) Processor [Subtract $79.00]
Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® E5420 (2.50GHz, 1333MHz FSB, 80W) Processor [Add $21.00]
Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® E5430 (2.66GHz, 1333MHz FSB, 80W) Processor [Add $121.00]
Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® E5440 (2.83GHz, 1333MHz FSB, 80W) Processor [Add $371.00]
Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® E5450 (3.00GHz, 1333MHz FSB, 80W) Processor [Add $771.00]
Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® X5450 (3.00GHz, 1333MHz FSB,120W) Processor [Add $621.00]
Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® X5460 (3.16GHz, 1333MHz FSB, 120W) Processor [Add $1,071.00]


but when you select a Harpertown the "ship date" goes from "7 days" to "Call for availability".

Note that the 2.33 GHz Harpertown is $79 cheaper than the 2.0 GHz Woodcrest!

Alienware's QX6950 system says "31 December" for shipping.

As I posted recently, the HP/Lenovo shipping dates of December to January don't bode well for early shipments. There will probably be a few getting out sooner, but I doubt that volume shipments will happen much before MWSF.

Which means that a MWSF announcement for the Mac Pro revision might not be "late".

ktlx
Nov 13, 2007, 09:42 AM
As I posted recently, the HP/Lenovo shipping dates of December to January don't bode well for early shipments. There will probably be a few getting out sooner, but I doubt that volume shipments will happen much before MWSF.
I've been reading various reports around the net saying that although Intel is claiming immediate availability for many parts, others are saying that four to six weeks for shipping systems is more realistic.

I think when we will see them depends on how Apple wants to present it and if they are waiting on the ATI HD 38xx GPUs. I think Apple's past makes it more likely they'll want either an nVidia 8800 GT or an ATI HD 38xx than an nVidia 8800 GTX/Ultra or ATI HD 2900. Also, the new processors have SSE4 which is supposed to just seriously increase video processing time. Steve Jobs may wish to make a splash in January demoing a new Mac Pro with eight cores running at 3.2GHz and an ATI HD 3870 cranking away at an SSE4-optimized version of Final Cut Studio.

As for the "Tokyo rumor", I mean anyone with any knowledge of who shells out the big bucks for Mac Pros could write the same thing with absolutely no inside information and be assured it's close to right.

AidenShaw
Nov 13, 2007, 10:12 AM
As for the "Tokyo rumor", I mean anyone with any knowledge of who shells out the big bucks for Mac Pros could write the same thing with absolutely no inside information and be assured it's close to right.

One other point about the 3.2 GHz CPUs - usually the fastest chips are much more scarce than the midrange and slow chips.

If Apple is waiting for an adequate supply of 3.2s - they might have "reserved" 100% of nothing.

ktlx
Nov 13, 2007, 11:02 AM
I'm sure they're convinced that they're protecting iMac sales, but I think they're doing it at the expense of gaining market share (and making more profit overall).
I don't think anyone would argue they'd increase market share. However, that doesn't necessarily mean more profit since a mini-tower would have worse margins than either an iMac or a Mac Pro and would eat into both lines. In order to justify the "releasing a mini-tower means more profit" claim, there needs to be a business case to support it that shows whatever margin hit and increased support costs Apple takes by entering the low margin mini-tower market is more than offset by the increased market share.

Since Apple has far better history of making money in the personal computer market than anyone posting to this forum, I'm betting on their strategy. :D

milo
Nov 13, 2007, 11:26 AM
I don't think anyone would argue they'd increase market share. However, that doesn't necessarily mean more profit since a mini-tower would have worse margins than either an iMac or a Mac Pro and would eat into both lines. In order to justify the "releasing a mini-tower means more profit" claim, there needs to be a business case to support it that shows whatever margin hit and increased support costs Apple takes by entering the low margin mini-tower market is more than offset by the increased market share.

Since Apple has far better history of making money in the personal computer market than anyone posting to this forum, I'm betting on their strategy.

Why would a minitower necessarily have worse margins than anything else? Apple sets pricing, so that means they set their own margins. I don't think anyone thinks that such a model would match the prices of comparable PC's, but even with apple's 30% or so profit margin the difference in price wouldn't be that much.

And apple's history has been extremely spotty. They have really only started getting it right in the last few years, and even now they still make some decisions that don't pay off. I just don't buy the whole notion that a big company that is generally successful can do no wrong.

tk421
Nov 13, 2007, 11:37 AM
-sigh-

No announcement. Today is a sad day. :(

darthraige
Nov 13, 2007, 11:40 AM
-sigh-

No announcement. Today is a sad day. :(

Yes, today is a sad day, and either way, tomorrow will be a happy day for me since I will probably buy no matter what.

whatever
Nov 13, 2007, 11:56 AM
Yes, today is a sad day, and either way, tomorrow will be a happy day for me since I will probably buy no matter what.

Hey, the US Apple store is down, they must be updating their site with the new Mac Pros.

Oh wait, so I must have leaped into the future. Yes, I did it's January 14, 2008 and it must be down for Steve's Keynote. I wonder if I click Submit Reply now and then leap back when will my message be posted (good the head aches of time travel)?

ktlx
Nov 13, 2007, 12:03 PM
I don't think anyone thinks that such a model would match the prices of comparable PC's, but even with apple's 30% or so profit margin the difference in price wouldn't be that much.
Apple's gross margins for the last quarter were 37%. That means the margins on the iMacs and Mac Pros are well over 40%. The people screaming the loudest for the mini-tower want a gaming machine to run Windows PC games and therefore Apple would have to price more competitively in order to sell enough units to justify the effort. Everyone else in the mini-tower business works on razor thin margins according to report after report.
And apple's history has been extremely spotty. They have really only started getting it right in the last few years, and even now they still make some decisions that don't pay off. I just don't buy the whole notion that a big company that is generally successful can do no wrong.
I never said they can do no wrong. I said that they have a track record that is unmatched by anyone posting to this forum. Given a choice of betting on either Apple's strategy, or any different one posted here, that choice is rather obvious. You pick the proven winner betting they will be more right, more often.

Overall, I think understanding Apple's path is a no brainer. If creating a mini-tower was really the financial slam dunk people here keep making it out to be, Apple would be making and selling one. Apple is a whole lot smarter than the people on this forum and if they aren't making a mini-tower, the business case doesn't prove out. If it was clearly as obvious as people portray it, Apple would be risking a shareholder lawsuit.

gugy
Nov 13, 2007, 12:06 PM
damn,

nothing today.
Well maybe tomorrow. One thing is almost sure, if does not happen until next Tuesday, then at MWSF. Oh I hate the wait.:mad:

whatever
Nov 13, 2007, 12:13 PM
Apple's gross margins for the last quarter were 37%. That means the margins on the iMacs and Mac Pros are well over 40%. The people screaming the loudest for the mini-tower want a gaming machine to run Windows PC games and therefore Apple would have to price more competitively in order to sell enough units to justify the effort. Everyone else in the mini-tower business works on razor thin margins according to report after report.

I never said they can do no wrong. I said that they have a track record that is unmatched by anyone posting to this forum. Given a choice of betting on either Apple's strategy, or any different one posted here, that choice is rather obvious. You pick the proven winner betting they will be more right, more often.

Overall, I think understanding Apple's path is a no brainer. If creating a mini-tower was really the financial slam dunk people here keep making it out to be, Apple would be making and selling one. Apple is a whole lot smarter than the people on this forum and if they aren't making a mini-tower, the business case doesn't prove out. If it was clearly as obvious as people portray it, Apple would be risking a shareholder lawsuit.

Good God, I must have jumped ahead and missed all of the talk of the need for a mini tower.

Why don't people understand that Apple sits in two computer markets. The Professional and the Consumer. They are not interested in entering the Gaming market, if game publishers want to enter Apple's market place (by creating games an Apple device), fine, but Apple has no interest in becoming the next Alienware.

When Apple sees a market they feel is profitable and they can succeed in they jump into it will both feet, recent examples include the iPod and the iPhone and even the submarket space that contains laptops. Making game machines and mini-towers just don't fit!

Even if there was (and there isn't) a solid business case for a Mini-Tower, Apple would never be at a risk for a shareholder lawsuit, because all Apple would need to say is that they're focusing on other market segments.

gugy
Nov 13, 2007, 12:23 PM
The Mini-tower won't happen. Let me say another way. Very, very unlikely. ;)

If it was part of Apple plans, we would have it by now. So, I would save all the whinning and let's move on.

I want my MacPro now!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

babboxy
Nov 13, 2007, 12:31 PM
damn,

nothing today.


...I'll go and play crysis in the meantime...see you next week.

happydude
Nov 13, 2007, 12:54 PM
huh, kinda expected something today. a shame but it'll come soon (relatively soon, depending on if you are waiting to buy or not). personally, we got rid of waiting and just went with the imac of which we have no regrets!!! in 3 years or so we'll upgrade that to a tower system for sure. 3 years from now - now that's something to dream about!!! what will apple have in store for us in 2010/2011?!?!?!

AidenShaw
Nov 13, 2007, 01:06 PM
Everyone else in the mini-tower business works on razor thin margins according to report after report.

Apple's mini-tower entry wouldn't compete with the Emachines of the PC world - the single socket Intel workstation market would be a better model.

Look at the Dell PW 390 workstation (http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/precn_390?c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz). With a quad core 2.66, it's about $1000 less than a quad-core Mac Pro with similar specs. That's still a $1700 system, though, so hardly "razor thin" margins.

ktlx
Nov 13, 2007, 01:40 PM
Look at the Dell PW 390 workstation (http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/precn_390?c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz). With a quad core 2.66, it's about $1000 less than a quad-core Mac Pro with similar specs.
That doesn't seem like a very good model for what people seem to be clamoring for. It has outdated CPUs and chipset and doesn't have gaming GPUs. People are crabbing about how outdated the Mac Pro is and that system is even weaker.
That's still a $1700 system, though, so hardly "razor thin" margins.
Margins have nothing to do with the absolute price of the system. Something sold for $2T could still have a razor thin margin. HP's margins on PCs can't be anywhere near Apple's because their system division makes less profit than Apple's on something approaching twice the revenue. Although the above system should have pretty decent margins. Most of the parts are last generation (1066MHz bus and 975x chipset with DDR2 memory).

Ooops: Dude, that's a Dell, not an HP... :D

milo
Nov 13, 2007, 02:09 PM
Apple's gross margins for the last quarter were 37%. That means the margins on the iMacs and Mac Pros are well over 40%. The people screaming the loudest for the mini-tower want a gaming machine to run Windows PC games and therefore Apple would have to price more competitively in order to sell enough units to justify the effort. Everyone else in the mini-tower business works on razor thin margins according to report after report.

You make a lot of assumptions, and you don't really justify any of them. I don't agree that it's all gamers. And if apple can sell a mini that is that uncompetitively priced, I don't see why they can't sell a minitower at their usual margins. The difference between 15% margin and 35% margin on a $1000 machine is only $200. I think plenty of people would be willing to pay that small a difference to get a mac, especially after years of having the only alternative be a machine that's $2200.

Not to mention that most minitowers sold are probably more in the $800-1200 range, where the margins aren't as thin.

I never said they can do no wrong. I said that they have a track record that is unmatched by anyone posting to this forum. Given a choice of betting on either Apple's strategy, or any different one posted here, that choice is rather obvious. You pick the proven winner betting they will be more right, more often.

That's garbage, equivalent to the fanboys who counter any criticism of Star Wars with "Well, have YOU made a hit movie?" The Coca Cola company had a track record unmatched by anyone in the general public, yet they discontinued Coke in favor of a new flavor, a move that any random person walking down the street would tell you was colossally moronic.

And seriously, a mini tower would invite a shareholder lawsuit? Sorry, but you've crossed the line into sycophantic territory with that.

That doesn't seem like a very good model for what people seem to be clamoring for. It has outdated CPUs and chipset and doesn't have gaming GPUs. People are crabbing about how outdated the Mac Pro is and that system is even weaker.

It looks like you're really misunderstanding what people want in a machine. People want expandability and upgradability and generally DON'T think that kind of machine needs the fastest processor. The complaining about how the MP is outdated is an entirely different issue than adding a mini tower. Apple needs to upgrade on the high end AND add cheaper expandable options on the low end.

If you want to compare a newer chip, just switch the dell to the quad core 2.4. That's $1640 for the dell with similar BTO options versus $2200 for the MP with a 2.0 quad (meaning the dell may be faster for most things).

takao
Nov 13, 2007, 02:23 PM
razor thin margins aside... actually i guess that's not so true compared to actual local PC suppliers where you often can get much better stuff since they don't have the water head of bureaucracy like HP or dell who also happen to spend gazillions on ads around the world

and cpus like the Q6600 are still a hell of a chip totally missing in apples line up even when it has a slower fsb

personallyi would got for a p35 board currently since they can handle the new Penryn desktop chips coming out in Q1 08

true the x38 etc. boards are faster etc. but you are paying for stuff you would even have to pay more to little more performance (which for most 3d apps is graphcis card limited anyway)

i still find it funny how apple chooses never desktop components where actually the margin could be the highest while having an excellent price performance ratio

AidenShaw
Nov 13, 2007, 03:18 PM
Originally Posted by AidenShaw
Look at the Dell PW 390 workstation. With a quad core 2.66, it's about $1000 less than a quad-core Mac Pro with similar specs.

That doesn't seem like a very good model for what people seem to be clamoring for. It has outdated CPUs and chipset and doesn't have gaming GPUs.

:eek: Yes - it's outdated. Today is Tuesday, and this system has a motherboard and CPU from Sunday. LOL

You can bet, however, that it will be updated with an X38 motherboard (the replacement for the 975) as soon as Dell can get sufficient quantities.

More to the point, though, is that it's a small tower (about 60% of the size of the Mac Pro maxi-tower) with room for 3 or 4 disks, a second optical, an x16 PCIe slot, and other expansion slots. It's also well made (sturdy metal) and very quiet.

ktlx
Nov 13, 2007, 03:33 PM
You make a lot of assumptions, and you don't really justify any of them.
I repeated stuff that's public record from SEC filings.
It looks like you're really misunderstanding what people want in a machine. People want expandability and upgradability and generally DON'T think that kind of machine needs the fastest processor.
I think the problem is more that you keep putting words in my mouth. You say what you want in a machine. But there are just as many others screaming louder who seem to want Apple to recreate an Alienware system.

Both you and AidenShaw point out directly the other issue with the mini-tower release. There are at least three target candidates for the mini-tower and all have different needs and wants.

You keep talking about other company's failures and fanboys and so forth. But let's go back to the original claims you made. What credentials can you put forth to back up the claim that Apple's releasing a mini-tower would increase the market share and therefore increase their profit? Why should any of us believe your claims have any merit in comparison to Apple's actions?

takao
Nov 13, 2007, 03:48 PM
Why should any of us believe your claims have any merit in comparison to Apple's actions?

well remember the apple tv and it's raving success ? that god damn thing got greenlighted and is an aweful lot more of a niche

can you show me how apples desktop sales have improved since the intel launch considerable ?
after all apple is really pushing so we should see a increase in more desktop sales ... right


telling me that a mid tower computer makes no business sense while in the real world more than 90% of all desktop have that format is simply not logical to me ... especially from a business point

ktlx
Nov 13, 2007, 04:15 PM
I'm sure they're convinced that they're protecting iMac sales, but I think they're doing it at the expense of gaining market share (and making more profit overall).
That's okay... I didn't really expect anyone other than AidenShaw to even atttempt to justify these types of claims. I assumed what would happen is what normally does is there would be misdirection and avoidance and eventually turn into labeling a fanboy anyone who doesn't assume Apple is retarded. At least Aiden points out Apple could do it, which I don't dispute at all. My belief is that Apple knows what it's doing, and if there really was non-trivial profit to be had, they would pursue it before going off on tangents like the iPhone and AppleTV.

I assumed when I started this, that like all the other previous times, people were just talking out their rears with no real data or analysis to justify their claims that Apple has no idea what it's doing in the business of making personal computers and they are smarter than the people in Cupertino.

We just have different assumption. I assume Apple isn't run by a group of morons. Others assume they know better than the people running a $148B+ company.

milo
Nov 13, 2007, 04:17 PM
I repeated stuff that's public record from SEC filings.

The filings said that only gamers want it? They said that a minitower couldn't possibly have similar margins to apple's other boxes? Funny, I must have missed those.

But there are just as many others screaming louder who seem to want Apple to recreate an Alienware system.

Example? Apple already has a box in the same performance/price range as alienware, it's called the mac pro. Apple already has the high end covered, what is needed is a midrange machine.

Both you and AidenShaw point out directly the other issue with the mini-tower release. There are at least three target candidates for the mini-tower and all have different needs and wants.

Those differences don't look that big to me, and they could be covered by BTO options. And what are those three target candidates again?

What credentials can you put forth to back up the claim that Apple's releasing a mini-tower would increase the market share and therefore increase their profit? Why should any of us believe your claims have any merit in comparison to Apple's actions?

We're on a message board. We're all giving our opinions. What the hell are you going on about with credentials? I think that adding a mini tower, if done right, could increase their market share and make them more money. You disagree. Until apple actually does it, we won't know who is right. But insisting that If Apple Does It It Must Be Right is just stupid, they are human and they make mistakes just like anyone else. Look at the appleTV. Look at the backtracking they've done with third party apps on iPhone, missing features on iPod touch, etc. And look at the huge pile of mistakes apple has made since 1984. They're doing well now, but that doesn't automatically mean every decision they make is the right one. If you're going to ignore anything that isn't based on "credentials" you might as well give up on message boards, we're here to discuss the company and the machines, and frankly it's a bit patronizing to keep resorting to the old Apple Knows More Than You cliché.

milo
Nov 13, 2007, 04:30 PM
My belief is that Apple knows what it's doing, and if there really was non-trivial profit to be had, they would pursue it before going off on tangents like the iPhone and AppleTV.

I assumed when I started this, that like all the other previous times, people were just talking out their rears with no real data or analysis to justify their claims that Apple has no idea what it's doing in the business of making personal computers and they are smarter than the people in Cupertino.

We're talking about a hypothetical product apple could release.

People who think it would help are talking out of their rears.

People who think it would hurt are talking out of their rears.

We can all dig up whatever statistics we want, but when it comes down to it, it's all speculation, even inside of apple. The fact is, nobody knows for sure what would happen if this were released, apple included. If they really could predict the fate of a product before releasing it, they wouldn't make any mistakes, and they do.

We just have different assumption. I assume Apple isn't run by a group of morons. Others assume they know better than the people running a $148B+ company.

Nice straw man there, where did anyone say apple is retarded, a bunch of morons or doesn't know what they are doing? :rolleyes:

And as sad as it may make you, the fact is that everyday people with no credentials sometimes are more right than the guys running the big companies. When the appleTV and HiFi shipped (and I'm sure plenty of other failed products), guys with no credentials said they would not do well. Guess what? The guys with no credentials were right and the people running a $148B+ company were wrong.

This isn't about someone thinking they're smarter than the execs. This is about the merits of one specific possibility. And if you're only interested about what those execs think and do, why are you even discussing it on a message board?

ktlx
Nov 13, 2007, 04:38 PM
And if you're only interested about what those execs think and do, why are you even discussing it on a message board?
Because it pisses me off that every rumor even remotely about desktops always get highjacked by the "Apple mini-tower whiners". We can't even discuss rumors about the future Mac Pro because the threads always get taken over. So once in a while I vent to the thickheads who can't get a grip on the fact that Apple doesn't appear interested in catering to their every whim and needs. Apple is a business, not your mother...

takao
Nov 13, 2007, 04:51 PM
Because it pisses me off that every rumor even remotely about desktops always get highjacked by the "Apple mini-tower whiners". We can't even discuss rumors about the future Mac Pro because the threads always get taken over. So once in a while I vent to the thickheads who can't get a grip on the fact that Apple doesn't appear interested in catering to their every whim and needs. Apple is a business, not your mother...

yeah that's why i very likely put my money somewhere else next year if i can't get something which fits my needs

just because i use an apple at the time doesn't mean i'm blind or stupid enough to compromise at all costs

edit:that said the mere fact that such a mac comes up in every god damn discussion no matter where (it's way worse on german boards i sometimes visit) if it's forums, blog discussions or news articles/editorals should be good enough indication that there is actually a market for such a configuration

after all it's not much different than pre-mac mini launch where every news about the emac/imac ended up in "why no cheaper not AIO desktop" discussions ... in which i actually was right

milo
Nov 13, 2007, 04:52 PM
Because it pisses me off that every rumor even remotely about desktops always get highjacked by the "Apple mini-tower whiners". We can't even discuss rumors about the future Mac Pro because the threads always get taken over. So once in a while I vent to the thickheads who can't get a grip on the fact that Apple doesn't appear interested in catering to their every whim and needs. Apple is a business, not your mother...

Nobody is stopping you from discussing anything, discuss away about the future mac pro.

You're right, apple is absolutely a business. And as such, it makes perfect sense to discuss possible future products, whether they be a hypothetical mac pro update or a hypothetical new minitower model.

For the record, I'm also an AAPL shareholder. A big reason I'm interested in seeing them add a new model is because I believe it will make the company, and as a result, me, more money.

PS. You're probably not going to convince anyone by resorting to sandbox ad hominem attacks...but glad you could get that venting out of your system...hope you feel better...

whatever
Nov 13, 2007, 05:28 PM
Because it pisses me off that every rumor even remotely about desktops always get highjacked by the "Apple mini-tower whiners". We can't even discuss rumors about the future Mac Pro because the threads always get taken over. So once in a while I vent to the thickheads who can't get a grip on the fact that Apple doesn't appear interested in catering to their every whim and needs. Apple is a business, not your mother...

AMEN!!!!

Yes, one of the reasons Apple does not want to sell a mini-tower is because it will cut into iMac line. I believe this to be true. If the iMac wasn't such a good seller they would consider it. Those who really need the ability to expand their systems can buy a Mac Pro.

It's a much more difficult sale for Apple to sell both a mini-tower and a monitor. The same can be said about the Mac Pro, but majority of the people that buy a Mac Pro either own an Apple display or are willing to buy one (hey since I'm spending $3,500 on a system, I might as well splurge and get a 30" monitor too (and that happens more than you know)).

Now do I wish that Apple would make a smaller enclosure. Hell yeah! But have it be a new Mac Pro.

I'm also an Apple Shareholder (paid a whopping $14.50 a share!) and to be honest I think one of their strengths is a simple and straight forward product line. Compare it to their competitors and they win every time. Talk to a normal consumer and explain to them their options on a computer from Apple (you have to be on the website while doing this) and then do the same with Dell (not to pick on them) and you'll see what I mean.

milo
Nov 13, 2007, 05:41 PM
Talk to a normal consumer and explain to them their options on a computer from Apple (you have to be on the website while doing this) and then do the same with Dell (not to pick on them) and you'll see what I mean.

And when you do this what's your response to "But I already have a monitor...show me the one that has all the iMac stuff but without the monitor?"

whatever
Nov 13, 2007, 08:32 PM
And when you do this what's your response to "But I already have a monitor...show me the one that has all the iMac stuff but without the monitor?"

Well, I would ask them about the monitor. Is 15" LCD that they got 5 years ago? Is it DVI or VGA? Chances are great that the monitor on the iMac is superior than what they have and in the long run would be cheaper just to get the iMac.

Once I get those answers I would tell them about their options.

1. Mac Mini (are you low end)
2. Mac Pro (are you high end)
3. Laptop (would you like the best of both worlds, desktop monitor and portability?)
4. iMac (would you like to have a dual display setup...)

I guess the point that all of us are trying to get across to the "pro" Mini-Tower people is that just because Apple makes computers doesn't mean that it has to make every type of computer.

Apple products are high end (now don't jump all over me for saying that, but I think you all know what I mean). I'll use the overused car analogy one more time. Sure BMW could manufacture a car to at the same price point as a VW Bug and people would buy it. But it's not BMW's goal to be making VWs, they make BMWs.

In other words, if you want a mini tower, go out and buy a Dell. And then join a Dell forum complaining that they ship their products with Windows instead of OS X. And the first thing that you will hear, is if you want a Mac buy a Mac!

John Musbach
Nov 14, 2007, 12:09 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Intel released (http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20071111comp.htm?iid=pr1_releasepri_20071111m) 16 of their new Penryn Core 2 Extreme and Xeon processors today. The new chips incorporate the new "Hi-k" metal gate formula and also incorporate a smaller 45-nanometer manufacturing process. These changes deliver faster and more energy-efficient processors.

While they did introduce a Core 2 Extreme Qx9750 quad-core processor with SSE4, our attention has focused on Intel's new Xeon processors, which makes up the bulk of Intel's announcements today.


The new 5400 Xeon chips are compatible with existing Xeon platforms and sets a number of benchmark world records, according to Intel. More data is available (http://www.intel.com/products/processor/xeon5000/index.htm) at Intel's site.

Apple has been rumored (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/05/apple-buying-up-high-end-penryn-processors/) to be buying up the high end 3.2GHz Penryn Xeon processors which feature a faster 1600MHz bus and 12MB of L2 cache for an upcoming Mac Pro revision. Apple currently uses the 5100 Xeon Woodcrest (Quad core Macs) or 5300 Xeon Clovertown (8-core Macs) processors.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/12/intel-announces-45-nm-penryn-processors/)

Hmm, the "compatible with existing Xeon platforms" comment is interesting and makes me wonder if these processors will be simple drop in replacements in current mac pros...

AidenShaw
Nov 14, 2007, 12:46 AM
Sure BMW could manufacture a car to at the same price point as a VW Bug and people would buy it. But it's not BMW's goal to be making VWs, they make BMWs.

Yes, BMW makes the BMW Mini, for $2800 more than a VW Bug.

That sounds like an argument for a premium Mini-Tower from Apple!

takao
Nov 14, 2007, 04:18 AM
Yes, BMW makes the BMW Mini, for $2800 more than a VW Bug.

That sounds like an argument for a premium Mini-Tower from Apple!

not to forget the BMW 1 series who isn't that far away either


and i have a 22" inch screen

(that said i find the obsession of some mac users with dell rather funny)

ErikAndre
Nov 14, 2007, 06:16 AM
So... not an expert here... but if an up and coming tuesday :apple: MacPro release was around the corner wouldn't that mean Apple usually makes an announcement about it, say around Thursday of the preceding week?

(just a thought?)

:: crossing fingers ::

AidenShaw
Nov 14, 2007, 07:12 AM
So... not an expert here... but if an up and coming tuesday :apple: MacPro release was around the corner wouldn't that mean Apple usually makes an announcement about it, say around Thursday of the preceding week?

Pre-announcements are very rare - Apple likes to be able to say "shipping now". The recent two MBP updates and the MB update are cases in point.

Apple has pre-announced products in new areas, like the Iphone and Apple TV, where there's no existing product to be Osbourned (and it hopes to Osbourne somebody else's product).

Sometimes when there's a big event (MacWorld/WWDC/NAB/...) a product will be announced even if it's not quite ready to ship in volume.

twoodcc
Nov 14, 2007, 07:13 AM
well, i thought the mac pros would be updated today, but it's now not looking too likely

milo
Nov 14, 2007, 07:37 AM
Well, I would ask them about the monitor. Is 15" LCD that they got 5 years ago? Is it DVI or VGA? Chances are great that the monitor on the iMac is superior than what they have and in the long run would be cheaper just to get the iMac.

And chances are that they're perfectly happy with the monitor they have and they're not interested in paying for an upgrade they don't need. And chances are they'll end up upgrading their monitor when they want to, when prices drop to the right point for them.

Consumers like options.

Once I get those answers I would tell them about their options.


1. Mac Mini (are you low end)
2. Mac Pro (are you high end)

"Hmmm...$599 for a crippled machine or $2200 for one that's overkill...so show me the midrange one...there isn't one?? You're kidding, right?"



Apple products are high end (now don't jump all over me for saying that, but I think you all know what I mean). I'll use the overused car analogy one more time. Sure BMW could manufacture a car to at the same price point as a VW Bug and people would buy it. But it's not BMW's goal to be making VWs, they make BMWs.

So the mini is high end? While it would be nice if they made one, for the most part those asking for a minitower want a midrange machine. We're asking for something better than apple's cheapest box, not for them to have something on the extreme low end to compete with a $299 emachine.

And as far as I'm concerned "buy a dell" is an admission that apple isn't doing something right. Part of the reason apple's market share is low is because a whole segment of the market would like to buy a mac with those features and price - apple tells them to get lost but dell is happy to sell them the machine they want.

whatever
Nov 14, 2007, 08:19 AM
And as far as I'm concerned "buy a dell" is an admission that apple isn't doing something right. Part of the reason apple's market share is low is because a whole segment of the market would like to buy a mac with those features and price - apple tells them to get lost but dell is happy to sell them the machine they want.

Alright I give up!

You're right and Apple is 100% wrong. They're totality clueless and don't understand their market. Maybe they should just leave the computer market all together and focus on other consumer electronics.

Hey here's and idea. Buy a Mac Pro today and a week later Apple will either announce or release the Mini-Tower that ever you're been crying for (twice the power and and half the price).

The words Mini-Tower will never pass my finger tips again in this forum!

milo
Nov 14, 2007, 09:12 AM
They're totality clueless and don't understand their market. Maybe they should just leave the computer market all together and focus on other consumer electronics.

All hail the straw man!

Clarification after the inital post: I'm specifically saying that this is a straw man argument. I'm not saying that this poster is a man made of straw (whatever kind of personal attack that would be?).

whatever
Nov 14, 2007, 09:22 AM
All hail the straw man!

Well, I do believe that was a personal attack and I request that this person be banned.

milo
Nov 14, 2007, 09:25 AM
Well, I do believe that was a personal attack and I request that this person be banned.

Here's a better idea...look up what a straw man argument is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Glad I could enlighten.

AidenShaw
Nov 14, 2007, 09:28 AM
Well, I do believe that was a personal attack and I request that this person be banned.

You have been using straw man arguments, so I don't see this as a personal attack.

It's pretty clear that "straw man" refers to your arguments, not to you personally.

If I were a moderator, I'd give milo a warning to be more careful to criticize the argument and avoid the appearance of criticizing the person, but not ban or even give milo a timeout. I'd also warn you that your last few posts didn't really advance the discussion much.

He shouldn't be penalized just because someone else doesn't understand the meaning of "straw man". It has nothing to do with the Wizard of Oz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


(link collision - simultaneous posts)

whatever
Nov 14, 2007, 11:47 AM
Here's a better idea...look up what a straw man argument is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Glad I could enlighten.

Milo, just want wanted to say that I took your "straw man" comment out of context and want to apologize (and no this is not some type of layered straw man argument).

When I read your post I didn't actually give much thought to the section of my post that you quoted (I never read the crap that that guy writes). Had I read your entire post, including my own quoted words, I would have understood what you were getting at. My bad.

I no longer feel that this was a personal attack.

And to everyone here I apologize for being off topic.

milo
Nov 14, 2007, 12:05 PM
No problem, glad it's sorted out. Thanks.

zdobson
Nov 14, 2007, 12:52 PM
Now that we're back on topic...

I've now given up all hope of getting a new MacPro before MWSF, so what do you think we can expect there? Maybe some type of new business platform? I mean, think of the possibilities for a business when you sync MacPros with Xserve, ACDs (with video conferencing capabilities?) and iPhones rather than dealing with different companies each step of the way (IBM, HP, Blackberry). Since all of these products are due for an update, could they planning to release them together, promoting their ability to integrate?

takao
Nov 14, 2007, 12:59 PM
Now that we're back on topic...

I've now given up all hope of getting a new MacPro before MWSF, so what do you think we can expect there? Maybe some type of new business platform? I mean, think of the possibilities for a business when you sync MacPros with Xserve, ACDs (with video conferencing capabilities?) and iPhones rather than dealing with different companies each step of the way (IBM, HP, Blackberry). Since all of these products are due for an update, could they planning to release them together, promoting their ability to integrate?

might be a reason but i somehow doubt it .. isn't it more of a consumer show .. announcing a speed bump is one thing but professional plattforms another

whatever
Nov 14, 2007, 01:27 PM
might be a reason but i somehow doubt it .. isn't it more of a consumer show .. announcing a speed bump is one thing but professional plattforms another
No Mac World is "The Show".

The good news is that if Apple is holding off for Mac World to update the Mac Pro then we're in for a few surprises, such as a new smaller enclosure that doesn't weigh a ton.

Mac World would be the perfect stage also to launch the new Glass ACD with built in iSight.

I was wondering what products would be launched at Mac World (iLife '08-out; Leopard-Out; iWork '08-out; iMac-Out; iPods-out; iPhone-possible storage increase and the SDK; MacBooks-out; ACD-need to go glass; Mac Pro-read this entire thread; Mac Book Pro - needs work; Apple TV-may it not be forgotten).

AidenShaw
Nov 14, 2007, 01:28 PM
might be a reason but i somehow doubt it .. isn't it more of a consumer show .. announcing a speed bump is one thing but professional plattforms another

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=4482266&postcount=32

Originally Posted by AidenShaw
http://support.apple.com/specs/

MWSF 2006 - MacBook Pro announced
MWSF 2004 - Xserve G5 and Xserve RAID (SFP) announced
MWSF 2003 - PowerBook G4 announced
MWSF 2001 - PowerMac G4 and PowerBook G4 announced
MWSF 1999 - PowerMac G3 announced

It looks like the pattern is every other year for a Pro announcement - so MWSF 2008 is due!

Used to be that MacWorld (jan and late summer) were for all Macs, and WWDC was a little show for developers.

Then Jobs had the big hissy fit with IDG, and pulled out of the east coast MacWorld, saying "it's not necessary".

Of course, Apple's found out that it *is* needed, and has been morphing WWDC into the summer MacWorld.

Anyway, when Apple has something to announce around January, it happens at MWSF - whether it's pro or consumer.

takao
Nov 14, 2007, 01:56 PM
Anyway, when Apple has something to announce around January, it happens at MWSF - whether it's pro or consumer.

ok guess i was wrong ;)

that said what are we looking at upgrading ? iPhone, apple tv, mac pro, xserve,screen ? that is a lot to do and when thinking about it mostly spec bumps etc. perhaps redesigning the screens
but still that would leave something fancy out which they like to present .. speed bumps aren't well suited for such shows

AidenShaw
Nov 14, 2007, 02:25 PM
iPhone, apple tv, mac pro, xserve,screen ? that is a lot to do and when thinking about it mostly spec bumps etc. perhaps redesigning the screens but still that would leave something fancy out which they like to present .. speed bumps aren't well suited for such shows

Hmmm... Of your list

Iphone - won't be 3G, it'll take 5 minutes to say "now 16 GB"
Apple TV - Jobs won't want to remind people that this turkey exists
Xserve - Apple's been ignoring this for ages (still not octo-core), and most of the Xserve announcements have not been at big shows. The Xserve will either be killed, or it will get Harpertown/Seaburg after all the Mac Pro orders are filled.


So, that leaves the Mac Pro, new screens, and the Yorkfield/X38 Mini-Tower. That's not too much - after all there's no need for a Leopard demo. ;)

takao
Nov 14, 2007, 02:41 PM
So, that leaves the Mac Pro, new screens, and the Yorkfield/X38 Mini-Tower. That's not too much - after all there's no need for a Leopard demo. ;)

don't give them ideas with mentioning "leopard demo" ... it will be enough to go through at least quarter hour of "leopard sales have been totally super" and sales charts

and a x38 tower: well dream on ( i would have nothing against apple taking _that_ idea)

personally i suspect only a bump in specs or so for the screens .. after all what can be improved on those screens ?

i guess more focus will be put on some apple tv improvments... another wish for me would be apple actually making some sort of TV deal were you can watch episodes with ads for free ... especially when world wide

milo
Nov 14, 2007, 02:46 PM
i guess more focus will be put on some apple tv improvments... another wish for me would be apple actually making some sort of TV deal were you can watch episodes with ads for free ... especially when world wide

I'm not optimistic about aTV improvements, but I'd love to be wrong on that one. Support for streaming of free TV content with commercials would be great. But in the middle of a writer's strike when the public has suddenly found out that none of the creatives are getting paid for that, and at a point where TV content has gone dry and there's nothing to stream anyway...if the strike is still going on, and I assume it will be in January, I doubt we'll see any content related announcements.

AidenShaw
Nov 14, 2007, 03:16 PM
it will be enough to go through at least quarter hour of "leopard sales have been totally super" and sales charts

Do you really think that Jobs will spend half the keynote congratulating himself and Ive for all the work done by the other Apple employees? :eek:

AidenShaw
Nov 15, 2007, 06:51 AM
There's been a long-running Mac Pro thread alive at 2007 Harpertown Stoakley-Seaburg Motherboard With New Graphics Cards 8-Core Mac Pro (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=293910)

liv4Mac
Nov 15, 2007, 08:52 AM
Don't you guys think that it was strange that Hewlett-Packard and Lenovo announced their Penryn based workstations a few days before Intel release the Penryn chips?

Seriously, why couldn't they wait until after Intel release the chips which was just 5 days later?

With all the Apple speculations that was going around, maybe they know or sense that Apple would release something soon after the release of the Penryn chips.

Could it be that HP and Lenovo could not get an adequate amount of the chips for an earlier delivery?

I guess in time we'll find out.

AidenShaw
Nov 15, 2007, 09:34 AM
Don't you guys think that it was strange that Hewlett-Packard and Lenovo announced their Penryn based workstations a few days before Intel release the Penryn chips?

The HP announcement was at an event in SF, and an Intel VP even helped with the announcement. The Lenovo announcement seemed to be a special press conference just for the announcement.

I'd suspect that there were scheduling issues and Intel OK'd the early announcements to accomodate their partners. Note that nothing new about the Penryns were disclosed, and Intel had already released the embargo about publishing reviews of Penryn systems. No big deal to OK an announcement at an event that had already been or needed to be scheduled 5 days early.


With all the Apple speculations that was going around, maybe they know or sense that Apple would release something soon after the release of the Penryn chips.

I don't think that HP and Lenovo worry much about what Apple's going to do. All the "Apple speculations" were pretty much contained within the Apple websites - in the mainstream computer press Intel's plans were discussed as well as the assumed rollout through the other makers.

What was to "speculate" about - it was pretty clear that Penryns will replace earlier Core 2 chips throughout everyone's product lines.

(It doesn't take any great sleuthing to predict that Dell will announce a Latitude D640 in January, with the Penryn mobile chip. If you look at the D600, D610, D620 and D630 lines - make the leap and guess that the D640 will be here soon.)


Could it be that HP and Lenovo could not get an adequate amount of the chips for an earlier delivery?

I guess in time we'll find out.

Neither can Dell, IBM, Apple or the rest of the industry.

It's looking like the manufacturing ramp from Intel's new 45nm fab (http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20071025corp.htm) isn't as fast as some of us expected or hoped.

Eric Piercey
Nov 15, 2007, 10:02 AM
Do you really think that Jobs will spend half the keynote congratulating himself and Ive for all the work done by the other Apple employees? :eek:

My sarcasm detector didn't go off. You were joking though, right? There's gotta be at least 30 min of stroking. That's just part of the gig and to be expected, especially when the company is setting records.

liv4Mac
Nov 15, 2007, 11:08 AM
Great points AidenShaw.... Thanks for the reply


It's looking like the manufacturing ramp from Intel's new 45nm fab (http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20071025corp.htm) isn't as fast as some of us expected or hoped.So we might not see a Mac Pro for MWSF?
I wish Apple wasn't so tight lipped about their products. This is driving me crazy:eek::mad:

mdntcallr
Nov 15, 2007, 12:09 PM
this is getting frustrating waiting for the new model mac pro.

AidenShaw
Nov 15, 2007, 11:25 PM
Great points AidenShaw.... Thanks for the reply

Welcome - thanks for the compliment.


So we might not see a Mac Pro for MWSF?

If Intel suddenly picks up steam with the 45nm production, and supplies are adequate in a month (mid-December) - then a mid to late December Mac Pro announcement could occur. If Apple can build and ship the systems, they could capitalize on the holiday gift season and end-of-year tax/budget deadlines.

If it's a few weeks later than that, then I'd expect MWSF. Actually, I'd expect an MWSF announcement even if Intel hasn't caught up with demand - announce at MWSF and ship within 2-3 weeks.

I wouldn't expect Apple to announce before MWSF unless they can say "shipping now, or pick one up at your nearest Apple Store".

milo
Nov 16, 2007, 07:46 AM
I wouldn't expect Apple to announce before MWSF unless they can say "shipping now, or pick one up at your nearest Apple Store".

I think that's the key. Apple probably won't announce until they are ready to ship. Until the chips have arrived, any announced date is just an estimate, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the companies who have announced ship dates already end up having to change them.

OnePumpChump
Nov 19, 2007, 11:53 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if some of the companies who have announced ship dates already end up having to change them.

Took the words right out of my mouth:cool:

Superlat
Nov 20, 2007, 01:07 AM
Jobs could make a mid-sized tower with more balls than the mini if he wanted to, but he wants to play games. I got a macbook pro through work, and have discovered that it is more than adequate to run Reason 4.0, the newest After Fffects, Photoshop, and every other damn thing I throw at it. The only other thing I want is a secondary computer for rendering, basically a mini. I will buy a mini if nothing else comes out soon, but I think its way overdue for apple to release a mid consumer tower.

I used to think of myself as a power-user in the graphic video world who NEEDED the pro towers, but that philosophy has changed to the core. Right now I have this MBP on a tray across my easy chair and I can vegetate without sitting at the comp desk. Its great. Like I said, all I need is a renderbox. Businesses and scientists may need the power of the Macpro, but frankly, its footprint is way overdue for a reduction, and 4 2.66 chips aren't beating my dual 2.33s by much. Plus with the iphone out there, cmon Apple, better release that market-stealing consumer tower under $1500. I'm not buying the Icrack, forget it. I'll never spend 2k on a computer again, except laptop (maybe) YAY!

smkhrb
Nov 20, 2007, 01:46 PM
Did anyone notice this? I wonder if it's a mistake, or if apple just snuck this in today? Notice the Intel Core 2 Extreme?!?

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5535/picture1nj0.png

diamond.g
Nov 20, 2007, 02:08 PM
The 2.8 has always been a C2E. Which is kind of a waste considering it was designed for OC'ing...

iW00t
Nov 21, 2007, 03:07 AM
Until they actually ship, apple isn't "behind" at all.


And once again, I have to agree with all those in favor of a midtower (with the core 2 instead of xeon, they have quads of those now).

They are not behind, they are just ******** overpriced.

I don't know about you, but even cars do not stay in storefronts and sell at the exact same price for close to 18 months without any improvements whatsoever.

Umbongo
Nov 21, 2007, 01:40 PM
They are not behind, they are just ******** overpriced.

I don't know about you, but even cars do not stay in storefronts and sell at the exact same price for close to 18 months without any improvements whatsoever.

That's because the car market is nothing like the Intel workstation market.

darthraige
Nov 21, 2007, 01:47 PM
this is getting frustrating waiting for the new model mac pro.

Yes, but it will be worth it in the end. Now if it doesn't arrive at MWSF, then we are gonna have a big problem with Apple.

illust8r
Nov 22, 2007, 08:50 PM
I'm in the same boat waiting for the new Mac Pros. I need 2 of them.
Fully expected them to come out with the new OS in October.
Not really sure how long I can wait...

AidenShaw
Nov 29, 2007, 11:10 PM
We shall see quite soon. We shall SEE. :D

Well, now that Dell is selling 3.2 GHz Harpertowns with Blu-ray (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=4556670&postcount=2085), we can put this rumour to rest.... :p

babboxy
Nov 30, 2007, 03:31 AM
Well, now that Dell is selling 3.2 GHz Harpertowns with Blu-ray (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=4556670&postcount=2085), we can put this rumour to rest.... :p


I knew it...I will end up with another dell...

evian712
Dec 21, 2007, 06:55 PM
Been waiting for AAPL to update the MacPro for months now, but not sure how much longer I can wait. Knowing my luck, the minute I decide to jump in or buy a PC.. they come out with an updated video card and chip.

Come on AAPL, i'm a stock holder and customer. Please update your MacPro so you can earn my 5G instead of losing to dell.

LorenK
Dec 26, 2007, 01:39 PM
For those of you reading tea leaves about the likelihood of a Mac Pro update at MWSF, per a NexTag search, almost every Mac retailer is now discounting the 2.66 MacPro, up from only three last week. Granted this is now post-Christmas, but my tea-leaves reading suggests strongly something's coming and it's gonna be good.:)