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MacRumors
Nov 14, 2007, 01:17 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Apple's Mac OS 10.5 Leopard launch will go down in history as record-breaking, both internal and external. In Japan, sales went up to 60.5% market share year-on year in the month of October (http://www.macworld.co.uk/mac/news/index.cfm?newsid=19672), which was enough to bump Microsoft from the top spot (reports Macworld.co.uk citing a Japanese Business Computer News report)

In the six days after Leopard's 26 October launch, combined single-user licence (46 per cent) and family pack (7.9 per cent) sales accounted for 53.9 per cent of the total OS-only market in Japan.

However, at Microsoft, Windows sales fell from 75.3 per cent to 28.7 per cent

Apple had already indicated that the Leopard launch was highly successful, with two million copies sold in the first weekend alone (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/30/apple-sells-two-million-copies-of-leopard-in-first-weekend/).

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/14/leopard-overtakes-windows-os-sales-in-japan-for-october/)



Sussman
Nov 14, 2007, 01:19 PM
Thats crazy, way to go apple!

Grimace
Nov 14, 2007, 01:19 PM
Now if Apple could get China to stop pirating everything and sell Leopard there!

Football1maniac
Nov 14, 2007, 01:20 PM
Darn, so Vista isn't Microsoft's Messiah?:apple: :cool:

mdntcallr
Nov 14, 2007, 01:20 PM
Wow!!!

of course apple is on the upswing and well Microsoft with Vista.... is well on its way down.

this is marginal overall. the big change is more people are buying macs. so, this is a big deal and exciting period in apple's history.

if mac marketshare continues its upswing, it is conceivable that instead of 5% market share would be 15% in 2-3 years

Avicdar
Nov 14, 2007, 01:20 PM
Impressive!!

noone
Nov 14, 2007, 01:20 PM
Nice!

camnchar
Nov 14, 2007, 01:21 PM
I'm reading that, but I still don't believe it. Good times are ahead for Apple.

DizzyRose
Nov 14, 2007, 01:21 PM
Yay.

PCMacUser
Nov 14, 2007, 01:21 PM
This doesn't surprise me, since you'd have to be somewhat crazy to buy the full retail Vista OS. OEM is the only way it's affordable.

mustang_dvs
Nov 14, 2007, 01:24 PM
I'm curious to see what the Mac OS X to XP/Vista installed marketshare looks like in Japan.

miketcool
Nov 14, 2007, 01:26 PM
Time for a new version of Vista to be released: Windows Vista Power Edition Small Office Virus Barrage SP2. At least Balmer can gloat about the sheer number of versions of Vista and begin the new add campaign fresh from Bandai. "Gotta catch 'em all!"

gphoto
Nov 14, 2007, 01:29 PM
Awesome!

djellison
Nov 14, 2007, 01:31 PM
What was the ratio the week after Vista was released?

Doug

Squonk
Nov 14, 2007, 01:32 PM
Great news for :apple:. Once the initial pent up demand is satisfied, that number will swing back to Uncle Bill, but it's always welcome to see :apple: in the lead!!!

MacsRgr8
Nov 14, 2007, 01:40 PM
This must be a turning point!

When has Apple ever sold their retail OS more than Microsoft's latest effort...?

Peace
Nov 14, 2007, 01:42 PM
This news makes me wonder if the good citizens of Japan are buying Leopard to install on their PC.Thus causing the spike in sales.

Popeye206
Nov 14, 2007, 01:42 PM
This is horrid news! Now more PC guys are going to hate Mac Users even more! :-)

BTW... I just got back from Japan a few weeks ago. I went to the Tokyo store. As with other Apple stores... it was packed. However, I'm in the professional publishing industry and I'm surprised on how behind Japan is with their adoption of new technology for business. I know... surprise! I was shocked to hear how many printing companies still base their workflows on OS 9 and applications such as PageMaker 7.0 and such. Way behind the rest of the world. But most of this is due to the Font issues in Japan... as for the consumer... looks like they want to be in the 21st century with the latest and greatest.

As a 20+ year Mac user, and have lived through the dark days of Scully and the rest on the non-Steve crew... it's good to see Apple back on top! Good for Apple!

cohibadad
Nov 14, 2007, 01:48 PM
wow. that is about the most stunning news I've heard recently. Dell better air more commercials with their colored laptops in Japan.

Telp
Nov 14, 2007, 01:48 PM
Thats crazy, way to go apple!

Great news! I hope that apple can keep this up. !!!

clcphoto
Nov 14, 2007, 02:03 PM
In Japan, sales went up to 60.5% market share year-on year in the month of October,

This is not what the article says. It says sales growth went up 60.5%, not that they had a 60.5% market share.

dogcowx
Nov 14, 2007, 02:09 PM
What was the ratio the week after Vista was released?

Doug

Exactly! You're comparing an OS that was JUST RELEASED versus one that has been out for quite a while.

IJ Reilly
Nov 14, 2007, 02:09 PM
If anyone can read Japanese, I'd sure like to see the original article translated.

http://bcnranking.jp/news/0711/071108_8930.html

Maybe it's just me, but the way these numbers have been stated is confusing.

ks-man
Nov 14, 2007, 02:11 PM
Why is this impressive for Apple?

They are comparing the sales for the first week of release of Leopard vs. around the 35th week of Vista.

What would be more interesting would be to compare the first week of Leopard vs. the first week of Vista.

Or else perhaps comparing the two sales for a week in a few months after early adopters have already had their chances to buy it.

The story as stated though is very highly skewed and uninformative. I would assume that the week that Tiger was released it outsold XP by a pretty decent margin.

nxent
Nov 14, 2007, 02:12 PM
wow, impressive

CHSE
Nov 14, 2007, 02:12 PM
So what's the point? Of course 10.5 sales are high in the month it comes out, everyone having a PC has already upgraded to vista (or decided never to do so). New versions of vista are mostly sold OEM with PCs now. The only real comparison would be vista in the month it came out with 10.5.

savvos
Nov 14, 2007, 02:17 PM
The article states that Leopard, including single user and family pack licenses, has the #1 spot in OS market share at 53.9%. The article also talks a bit about how Leopard's release was delayed.

burnhamish
Nov 14, 2007, 02:18 PM
... I'm surprised on how behind Japan is with their adoption of new technology for business. ...

I have worked for a Japanese company for thirteen years- we recently upgraded to Office 2003. We use a five year old version of Lotus Notes. We only upgraded to Windows XP because M$ stopped supporting Windows 98!

I'm surprised we have color laser printers. How modern!

The Powers That Be in my company are very cautious about adopting the latest releases of anything before someone else has worked out all the kinks. Trouble is, once we adopt something, it gets updated again!

Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto :rolleyes:

Avatar74
Nov 14, 2007, 02:19 PM
There are two distinct and separate metrics being reported here.

1. Year on year growth - The article's statement that "sales shot up between September and October, climbing from a rate of 15.5 per cent year on year to 60.5 per cent," means this:

In September, sales were 15.5% higher than the same month last year.
In October, sales were 60% higher than in the same month last year.

* The operative words here are "year on year"


2. Market share - The words "sales accounted for 53.9 per cent of the total OS-only market in Japan" are referring to OS X sales as a percentage of total OS sales (excluding OEM bundling).

* The operative words here are "per cent of the total"

afkbradshaw
Nov 14, 2007, 02:20 PM
continued increase in sales and we can start enjoying viruses!

billystlyes
Nov 14, 2007, 02:20 PM
Why is this impressive for Apple?

They are comparing the sales for the first week of release of Leopard vs. around the 35th week of Vista.

What would be more interesting would be to compare the first week of Leopard vs. the first week of Vista.

Or else perhaps comparing the two sales for a week in a few months after early adopters have already had their chances to buy it.

The story as stated though is very highly skewed and uninformative. I would assume that the week that Tiger was released it outsold XP by a pretty decent margin.
Right on the mark! Of course Leopard is going to sell more the week it comes out. This isn't even news.

statikcat
Nov 14, 2007, 02:20 PM
Now if Apple could get China to stop pirating everything and sell Leopard there!

More like Russia.. :D

savvos
Nov 14, 2007, 02:20 PM
The article also says that OSX took the top slot when Tiger was released, so this doesn't reflect future sales. What's more amazing is that when sales are broken down by manufacturer, Mac computer sales had a 60.7% market share.

Edit: My mistake, apparently the different numbers are coming from some home-grown Japanese OSes thrown in there, not hardware manufacturers.

FX120
Nov 14, 2007, 02:22 PM
This is not what the article says. It says sales growth went up 60.5%, not that they had a 60.5% market share.

Agreed.

Does this mean that sales of stand alone copies of the OS increased to 60.5%, or does this mean overall computer sales?

I'd be really surprised if this meant that Apple has a 60.5% market share, including OEM licences and new computer sales...

savvos
Nov 14, 2007, 02:24 PM
There are two distinct and separate metrics being reported here.

1. Year on year growth - The article's statement that "sales shot up between September and October, climbing from a rate of 15.5 per cent year on year to 60.5 per cent," means this:

In September, sales were 15.5% higher than the same month last year.
In October, sales were 60% higher than in the same month last year.

* The operative words here are "year on year"


2. Market share - The words "sales accounted for 53.9 per cent of the total OS-only market in Japan" are referring to OS X sales as a percentage of total OS sales (excluding OEM bundling).

* The operative words here are "per cent of the total"

I believe the article says Macs went from 15.5% share of the computer market last month to 60.7% market share.

seashellz2
Nov 14, 2007, 02:26 PM
not a fair statistic, I hate to say.
VISTA has had all the wind let out of its bag-its been out nearly a year and the word is in: IT SUCKS. Heck-my very own OS (Meow 1.0) could probably outsell VISTA right now.
Whereas 10.5 is fresh on the scene.
If APPLE can keep this lead up over the next 12 months, then were in the money...

Cromulent
Nov 14, 2007, 02:29 PM
It is impressive because because the Mac OS has never outsold the Microsoft equivalent. In that regard it is news. It is not what we are comparing but the simple fact that Apple actually have outsold Windows for once.

This in itself is not that impressive but shows that Apples marketshare has increased enough to be able to do it at all.

FF_productions
Nov 14, 2007, 02:29 PM
Wow good job Apple.

If only the same happened here in America.

50548
Nov 14, 2007, 02:30 PM
So, where are the PCzoids NOW? Any still lurking in this forum? Windows is OVER. AND OUT. Only PCfanboys fail to see the reality. And this without counting that Japan has been a DISAPPOINTMENT for Apple sales in years...

Fact: Vista is a piece of crap and cannot even be compared to Leopard.

GO APPLE!

savvos
Nov 14, 2007, 02:31 PM
Agreed.

Does this mean that sales of stand alone copies of the OS increased to 60.5%, or does this mean overall computer sales?

I'd be really surprised if this meant that Apple has a 60.5% market share, including OEM licences and new computer sales...

The article is looking at stand alone copies.

grappler
Nov 14, 2007, 02:37 PM
Obviously that's a bunch of people who were waiting for a while for the Leopard release. Wonder how many of those people already had Tiger.

grappler
Nov 14, 2007, 02:38 PM
So, where are the PCzoids NOW? Any still lurking in this forum? Windows is OVER. AND OUT. Only PCfanboys fail to see the reality. And this without counting that Japan has been a DISAPPOINTMENT for Apple sales in years...

Fact: Vista is a piece of crap and cannot even be compared to Leopard.

GO APPLE!

Wow, I guess Microsoft should just pack up shop right now. What's important is they tried, eh?

GoodWatch
Nov 14, 2007, 02:43 PM
So, where are the PCzoids NOW? Any still lurking in this forum? Windows is OVER. AND OUT. Only PCfanboys fail to see the reality. And this without counting that Japan has been a DISAPPOINTMENT for Apple sales in years...

Fact: Vista is a piece of crap and cannot even be compared to Leopard.

GO APPLE!

How eloquently and modestly spoken as just another fanboi. Bravo, OS X’s total market share has shot up to 8.8% by these sales. :rolleyes:

Unspeaked
Nov 14, 2007, 02:54 PM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't Apple have a HUGE share of the Japanese OS market as recently as the mid-to-late 90s?

Like, way over 50%?

(For all I know, they still do, but I assumed it had fallen into the 20% range in the 00s...)

MacsRgr8
Nov 14, 2007, 02:54 PM
Why is this impressive for Apple?



I think this would have been the first time ever that a retail version of a Mac OS has out-sold a retail version of Windows, at any time... no matter how new or old either OS is.
I'm sure even Windows ME still out-sold Mac OS X 10.0 even when Windows ME was about half a year old when Mac OS X 10.0 was introduced...

Mac-Addict
Nov 14, 2007, 02:55 PM
I'm pretty sure that the month Vista was released it got more than Tiger sales that month.

chicagostars
Nov 14, 2007, 02:58 PM
Now if Apple could get China to stop pirating everything and sell Leopard there!

You mean there's a problem with piracy in China? Say it ain't so! :D

luke-j-s
Nov 14, 2007, 03:01 PM
Woo go :apple: i love my mac, my ipod touch and leopard. Watchout you PC lovers.. mac is in town!

Avatar74
Nov 14, 2007, 03:14 PM
I believe the article says Macs went from 15.5% share of the computer market last month to 60.7% market share.

That is not what the article says. Read my response again. They're talking about year-on-year growth. The important point here is that the percentage they're expressing, if year-on-year, is not indicative of what the sales are as a percentage of total (and they're not talking about Mac sales, but Mac OS sales, btw).

When we talk about year-on-year sales growth, we're talking about the growth in sales expressed as a percentage of the same product's previous year's volume, not as a percentage of the market.

Imagine that in September of 2006 they sold 100 copies of OS X.
15% year on year growth would mean in September of 2007 they sold 115 copies.

Now imagine that in October of 2006 they sold 200 copies of OS X.
60% year on year growth would mean that in October of 2007 they sold 320 copies.

The only market share figure stated in the article is the one noting that OS X, specifically Leopard, represented 53% of total OS only sales at the time. That is an entirely different metric from the aforementioned.

Combined, these metrics are important because they're telling us two things...

The interest in Windows relative to last year declined quickly from September to October. The interest in OS X relative to last year increased quickly from September to October. Taken alone, this metric doesn't tell us why... but that's not the interesting part. The interesting part is when you look at the second metric, and see that yes, indeed, Leopard represents a larger volume of OS sales than Vista in Japan.

One thing to consider, though, as to why Vista sales a year out should be compared to Leopard sales is because Vista had a much longer development cycle, and Microsoft's releases are intended to carry them for years, not 18 months like OS X releases. For such a major release, 6-7 years after XP, to reach maturity in terms of market interest within just a year is particularly terrible. Nothing significant will change about Windows for another several years.

Consequently, it is rather significant that Apple is stealing attention from Microsoft now... because with absolutely nothing of note in the hopper for several years, Microsoft is particularly vulnerable to market share depletion by more agile entities. Perhaps the delays for Leopard were actually a good thing. Any earlier and it may have been somewhat more difficult to swipe market share from Windows. But now, it seems almost like stealing candy from a baby.

Remember, because of Microsoft's tremendous size, a drop from 75% year over year growth to 28% year over year growth is a staggering slowdown in volume being pushed out the door.

Apple combining forces very heavily with Google for content delivery is a double-blow... separately they don't seem capable of doing so much damage, but together they pose a significant threat to Microsoft because the future of the OS is predicated heavily upon the user experience and content accessibility... something Microsoft is very lousy at facilitating. People are becoming more and more interested in what their OS can do for them in terms of both content creation, content transmission and content access over the internet.

Microsoft's in a very precarious position right now, very heavily exposed due to multiple failures in content creation/delivery, OS stability and security, and the overall user experience.

This is not simply about selected numbers making Mac OS appear better. This is about a small, very agile entity's window of opportunity (no pun intended) to grab market share and build brand equity while the sleeping giant of Redmond takes another several years just to figure out its next move, much less act on it.

RealMcCoy
Nov 14, 2007, 03:15 PM
continued increase in sales and we can start enjoying viruses!

THANK YOU !!!! That´s what I say too !!!

MattJessop
Nov 14, 2007, 03:16 PM
This is good news.

But more importantly, Safari now feels snappier.

Tourist
Nov 14, 2007, 03:21 PM
So what's the point? Of course 10.5 sales are high in the month it comes out, everyone having a PC has already upgraded to vista (or decided never to do so). New versions of vista are mostly sold OEM with PCs now. The only real comparison would be vista in the month it came out with 10.5.

Totally Agree,

These figure of market share are for sales of retail versions of Boxed OS's not sales of Macs with leopard vs windows PCs or any thing like that.

This is the spike when mac owners go out and buy an upgrade, I imagine if you hunted back to the time Vista was released MS's Market share would have spike considerably higher too, it will fall off once those that are going to upgrade have done so,

by excluding OEM sales,in reality this spike will disappear into the wash of figures in terms of total units of OS sold,


"These arn't the sales figures you are looking for"
"He can go about his business"
"Move along"

Dagless
Nov 14, 2007, 03:30 PM
Nicely done Apple. It's obvious that OSX is the better OS (says this on Windows XP), it's just so engrained into the mind that one should buy a PC and either go for XP or put up with Vista. Nice to see things changing.

dukeblue91
Nov 14, 2007, 03:34 PM
Nice
Go :apple:

savvos
Nov 14, 2007, 03:36 PM
That is not what the article says. Read my response again. They're talking about year-on-year growth. The important point here is that the percentage they're expressing, if year-on-year, is not indicative of what the sales are as a percentage of total (and they're not talking about Mac sales, but Mac OS sales, btw).

When we talk about year-on-year sales growth, we're talking about the growth in sales expressed as a percentage of the same product's volume during the same period in the previous year, not as a percentage of the market.

Imagine that in September of 2006 they sold 100 copies of OS X.
15% year on year growth would mean in September of 2007 they sold 115 copies.

Now imagine that in October of 2006 they sold 200 copies of OS X.
60% year on year growth would mean that in October of 2007 they sold 320 copies.

The only market share figure stated in the article is the one noting that OS X, specifically Leopard, represented 53% of total OS only sales at the time. That is an entirely different metric from the aforementioned.

Combined, these metrics are important because they're telling us two things...

The interest in Windows relative to last year declined quickly from September to October. The interest in OS X relative to last year increased quickly from September to October. Taken alone, this metric doesn't tell us why... but that's not the interesting part. The interesting part is when you look at the second metric, and see that yes, indeed, Leopard represents a larger volume of OS sales than Vista in Japan.

One thing to consider, though, as to why Vista sales a year out should be compared to Leopard sales is because Vista had a much longer development cycle, and Microsoft's releases are intended to carry them for years, not 18 months like OS X releases. For such a major release, 6-7 years after XP, to reach maturity in terms of market interest within just a year is particularly terrible. Nothing significant will change about Windows for another several years.

Consequently, it is rather notable that Apple is stealing attention from Microsoft now... because with absolutely nothing of note in the hopper for several years, Microsoft is particularly vulnerable to market share depletion by more agile entities. Perhaps the delays for Leopard were actually a good thing. Any earlier and it may have been somewhat more difficult to swipe market share from Windows. But now, it seems almost like stealing candy from a baby.

Remember, because of Microsoft's tremendous size, a drop from 75% year over year growth to 28% year over year growth is a staggering slowdown in volume being pushed out the door. Even worse, that huge a drop in YOY sales growth occurred in one month!

Apple combining forces very heavily with Google for content delivery is a double-blow... separately they don't seem capable of doing so much damage, but together they pose a significant threat to Microsoft because the future of the OS is predicated heavily upon the user experience and content accessibility... something Microsoft is very lousy at facilitating. People are becoming more and more interested in what their OS can do for them in terms of both content creation, content transmission and content access over the internet.

Microsoft's in a very precarious position right now, very heavily exposed due to multiple failures in content creation/delivery, OS stability and security, and the overall user experience.

This is not just about using selected numbers to make Mac OS look better... this is about a small company being able to expand its brand presence while the big boy on the block is asleep at the wheel in between shots of espresso.

Thank you for taking the time to point all of that out, but I do understand the concepts.

Maybe I should have clarified that I was reading the original article in Japanese and reporting on what the original article said, and it says the share went from 15.5% last month to 60.7% during the first week Leopard was on sale. And these are stand-alone sales. The original article also states that Tiger had a 51.2% share immediately after its release, so Leopard has an almost 10 point gain on it.

Their numbers look a little weird, though, because 60.7% is the share broken down by "OS maker" and 53.9% is overall share of stand alone OS sales. The difference might be from Linux distros that were cut out increasing the OSX share, but they don't specify.

The article also points out that virtually all sales are going to people who already own Macs, so it points to how enthusiastic the installed OSX user base is about Leopard. The thing with Japan is that it has a shrinking PC market, in general the population isn't as enthusiastic about computers and there is a cultural tendency to buy new rather than upgrade, so I doubt many people were purchasing stand alone copies of Vista to start off with.

Prof.
Nov 14, 2007, 03:37 PM
Let the revolution BEGIN! :D

Prof. :apple:

GoodWatch
Nov 14, 2007, 03:45 PM
To add something; Apple makes hardware that is directly tied to the OS. In other words, people buy a new Mac with Leopard, a full version or a UTD package. Number of Macs equals the total number of versions of OS X (I leave out previous versions). Apple also makes various other pieces of hard- and software. Microsoft is primarily a software vendor. I don’t know what Vista’s contribution to Microsoft’s total revenue is, but I doubt it counts for more than10%. Because there is also Office, Windows Server, the development tools, etc. Businesses like the one I work for don’t focus on the latest flavour of the month. And Windows 2003 Server R2 runs very well on VMware Virtual Infrastructure.

The whole downgrading to XP affair concentrates on corporate buyers, not on the home front. I’ve been running a version of Vista only available to large corporations and the most aggravating aspect is the very poor execution of the way Vista handles input that requires an elevated authorisation level. I still recommend XP Pro for my company.

Time will tell if Vista will become another Windows ME which I rank among the worst of Microsoft’s versions of Windows. And to answer the remark in another thread: both Stevie and Billy ‘borrowed’ the whole GUI concept from Xerox PARC. And neither invented the mouse.

sushi
Nov 14, 2007, 03:52 PM
This is horrid news! Now more PC guys are going to hate Mac Users even more! :-)
LOL! :)

VISTA has had all the wind let out of its bag-its been out nearly a year and the word is in: IT SUCKS.
What I find interesting is the number of folks who purchase new computers with Vista installed, take it off and install Windows XP instead.

Most of Microsoft's OS'es take a while to mature, and Vista is no exception. Personally, I am waiting for Vista SP2 or whatever it will be called.

lolibra
Nov 14, 2007, 03:59 PM
Things are are getting better, but it's not as impressive as the English translation made it sound. I just read the Japanese original article. It said that the Tiger released in May of 2005 recorded 51.2%. That would mean, Apple was able to get ~10% more market share compared to their Tiger release over two years ago.

TheWannabe
Nov 14, 2007, 03:59 PM
Since when did operating systems become sports teams with die-hard fans and sales numbers reported like scores? Stating that one OS is better than another is NEVER fact, it is opinion. Personally I've been running Vista since beta and I love it just as much as I love my new Mac. I prefer to be a cross-platform specialist. Why limit yourself to just one OS when they all have their advantages and disadvantages?

With that out of the way, great job Apple! As some have said, the fact that this is the first time OSX has beat out Windows is definately something to celebrate. Of course, as others have said, the fact that it beat Windows in its first week of sales isn't exactly an accurate representation of the truth.

Apocalypse
Nov 14, 2007, 04:12 PM
continued increase in sales and we can start enjoying viruses!

That's not true at all. Unix (which Mac OS X is, in fact Leopard is POSIX certified) is not nearly as susceptible to viruses as Window is. You have to understand how it works under the hood to know why. The most basic explanation is that Windows runs in admin mode by default (the equivalent or root in Unix), and every single process has access to all the files on the disk, including the system files.

This means that viruses, trojans, spyware, etc. can easily (and silently) install themselves among the Windows system files and infect other programs, not to mention set themselves to run at startup. MS tried to address that in Vista but they did it very poorly, because to address it correctly would require changes that'll break a lot of existing apps. Actually even the changes they did make have broken a lot of apps, because Windows (like DOS) never had proper security to begin with.

Most of the security in Vista is in UAC which requires the user to confirm everything that happens. So unless the user understands that some app is trying to do something wrong they'll just hit "allow". This system is so annoying that most people will probably either turn it off or ignore it, because it asks confirmation for every trivial thing. I've personally had a case where it asked me to confirm file deletion three times. That's three message boxes to delete one file.

In Unix it's still possible to have viruses but user processes are not run with root privileges. This means that an infected program can't modify system files (or files of other users), so they can't infect other programs. The only way I know of for malicious software to gain root access in Unix is by exploiting a known buffer overflow in a root process. That however requires a lot more knowledge than Windows viruses do, and only works until the security hole is patched.

elppa
Nov 14, 2007, 04:31 PM
What would be more interesting would be to compare the first week of Leopard vs. the first week of Vista.

Already done (http://seekingalpha.com/article/53450-first-weekend-leopard-sales-on-par-with-initial-vista-sales?source=yahoo).

I seriously worry about the people looking for negatives in everything.

Yes Windows has a huge market share, but it is decreasing and no one seems to get too excited about their products anymore (Halo launch excluded). No one has ever queued for Windows Mobile, the Zune or Vista…

Leopard is POSIX certified

In the interests of balance, Windows Vista and Windows Server 2003 were also fully POSIX compliant before Leopard.

twoodcc
Nov 14, 2007, 04:45 PM
radial numbers, go Apple! :cool: :apple:

p0intblank
Nov 14, 2007, 04:52 PM
This is awesome news! I didn't see this coming... :)

FX120
Nov 14, 2007, 05:35 PM
That's not true at all. Unix (which Mac OS X is, in fact Leopard is POSIX certified) is not nearly as susceptible to viruses as Window is.

You do know that Vista and Server 2003 are also POSIX certified, right?

Anyway, I am not really sure what this statistic proves if it only relates to retail upgrade software sales.

Apple just released a new OS, of course there are going to be more sales of that OS than there were from the previous month when that OS was not available.

CalBoy
Nov 14, 2007, 06:25 PM
There sure seem to be many excited people, but somehow, my reaction is "meh." Leopard seems to be doing well in terms of sales, but these numbers don't seem to corroborate such a story very well. At the very least there has been a moderate increase in Leopard's adoption compared to Tiger (I believe one poster translated that Tiger's share at the same time was 51.5%, while Leopard is at 53%).

I think what would be more telling is if we had overall numbers involving the current usage of OS X compared to Windows (all-Vista, XP, ME, etc). Growth between these ratios would give us a more accurate picture of just how well OS X (Leopard in particular) is doing.

naftalim
Nov 14, 2007, 07:04 PM
Brilliant Post

[QUOTE=Avatar74;4494459]That is not what the article says. Read my response again. They're talking about year-on-year growth. The important point here is that the percentage they're expressing, if year-on-year, is not indicative of what the sales are as a percentage of total (and they're not talking about Mac sales, but Mac OS sales, btw).

SPUY767
Nov 14, 2007, 07:12 PM
Why is this impressive for Apple?

They are comparing the sales for the first week of release of Leopard vs. around the 35th week of Vista.

What would be more interesting would be to compare the first week of Leopard vs. the first week of Vista.

Or else perhaps comparing the two sales for a week in a few months after early adopters have already had their chances to buy it.

The story as stated though is very highly skewed and uninformative. I would assume that the week that Tiger was released it outsold XP by a pretty decent margin.

It's all pointless anyway. MS flubs its sales numbers by counting every OEM license that ships as a sale even tho some of those OEM licenses may not be in an actual operating machine for six months.

AidenShaw
Nov 14, 2007, 07:37 PM
So, where are the PCzoids NOW? Any still lurking in this forum? Windows is OVER. AND OUT. Only PCfanboys fail to see the reality. And this without counting that Japan has been a DISAPPOINTMENT for Apple sales in years...

Fact: Vista is a piece of crap and cannot even be compared to Leopard.

GO APPLE!

We're still here, Mr. Lawyer, but we don't need to comment....

You've managed to so discredit yourself with your embarrassing claims that there's nothing further that we can add.

dogcowx
Nov 14, 2007, 07:40 PM
Already done (http://seekingalpha.com/article/53450-first-weekend-leopard-sales-on-par-with-initial-vista-sales?source=yahoo).

I seriously worry about the people looking for negatives in everything.



And I seriously worry about people who take "analysis" at face value...

Apple's number's capture the absolute "early adopter's spike". Microsofts skews that value with another 10-22 days of data.

The author took 20 million and divided it by 28 days. There's no way that M$ sold 714,000 copies of VISTA on day 1, day 2, and day 28.

More than likely 50% of those 20 million were sold in the first 5-10 days... If we assume 5, that would be possibly 4 million per day (probably higher, given demand curves). If we assume 10, it would be 2 million per day (ditto).

kwfl
Nov 14, 2007, 07:50 PM
well, i think the new leopard the vista that has been there for a while argument still hold here

but why not think differently

if 5% of people use MC OS X in japan and they bought of their os more than what 95% bought during the same period. than that is a pretty much fair argument.

i think leopard is going well, but it isnt about leopard, it is about the percentage of macs out there.

CalBoy
Nov 14, 2007, 07:53 PM
if 5% of people use MC OS X in japan and they bought of their os more than what 95% bought during the same period. than that is a pretty much fair argument.

I'm sorry, I don't understand this sentence. Could you clarify for me? Thanks.

osx86le
Nov 14, 2007, 07:59 PM
If Leopard is that popular in Japan, then what percentage of the population are using macs, and if they not using macs, then do they plan to install OS X on hacintosh machines ?:apple:

Quillz
Nov 14, 2007, 08:09 PM
Darn, so Vista isn't Microsoft's Messiah?:apple: :cool:
Why does it need to be the "messiah" when Windows already has 90% market share?
Wow!!!

of course apple is on the upswing and well Microsoft with Vista.... is well on its way down.

this is marginal overall. the big change is more people are buying macs. so, this is a big deal and exciting period in apple's history.

if mac marketshare continues its upswing, it is conceivable that instead of 5% market share would be 15% in 2-3 years
I highly doubt this.
This doesn't surprise me, since you'd have to be somewhat crazy to buy the full retail Vista OS. OEM is the only way it's affordable.
Not really. Most people don't need the Ultimate edition, they will do fine with Home Basic or Home Premium, neither of which are very expensive.
This must be a turning point!

When has Apple ever sold their retail OS more than Microsoft's latest effort...?
Probably back in the 1980s when Windows literally was a joke. But by 1990 and Windows 3, it was the death knell for Apple.
not a fair statistic, I hate to say.
VISTA has had all the wind let out of its bag-its been out nearly a year and the word is in: IT SUCKS. Heck-my very own OS (Meow 1.0) could probably outsell VISTA right now.
Whereas 10.5 is fresh on the scene.
If APPLE can keep this lead up over the next 12 months, then were in the money...
Vista doesn't suck, and I doubt your immature OS would even be taken seriously. And no, they will not keep this lead. As others have said, this was a highly skewed comparison. A true comparison would be to compare the first week of Vista's sales with Leopard's sales.
So, where are the PCzoids NOW? Any still lurking in this forum? Windows is OVER. AND OUT. Only PCfanboys fail to see the reality. And this without counting that Japan has been a DISAPPOINTMENT for Apple sales in years...

Fact: Vista is a piece of crap and cannot even be compared to Leopard.

GO APPLE!
Windows is far from over. Get your iHead out of your iAss and come back down into iReality. Windows has 90% of the market for good reason. Windows is not "out," either. I don't even know what you mean by that. You do realize that Apple computers are overpriced, overhyped and underpowered PCs, right? Maybe you don't like Vista, and that's fine, but it is far from the piece of crap you claim. And if it can't be compared to Leopard, then why does Apple continue to feel the need to bash Vista every chance they get and then steal its feature set, like Time Machine? (Which was lovingly ripped straight from Vista. See: Previous Versions.)

Neutral Gamer
Nov 14, 2007, 08:17 PM
So, where are the PCzoids NOW? Any still lurking in this forum? Windows is OVER. AND OUT. Only PCfanboys fail to see the reality. And this without counting that Japan has been a DISAPPOINTMENT for Apple sales in years...

Fact: Vista is a piece of crap and cannot even be compared to Leopard.

GO APPLE!

Wow, I've never seen someone so desperate to engage in a fanboy war. Reading your post it sounds like YOU'RE the fanboy to me mate.

Thankfully, in general, MacRumors forum posters are far less likely (compared to other sites) to subscribe to such idiotic and biased views; or at least not express them in such a demeaning manner as was demonstrated by yourself.

Most people treated this story as good news, but all I got from your comment was anger and hate - not the best way to bring your argument across.

The true fanboy, when presented with good news about their product, will, instead of praising it, attack others. You know what, I like that phrase I just made so much I'm gonna make it my signature as a lasting test for those who think they've turned to the dark side of fanboyism!

BornAgainMac
Nov 14, 2007, 08:39 PM
I wonder what percentage of Windows copies went to Mac users?

synth3tik
Nov 14, 2007, 08:40 PM
Leopard Overtakes Windows OS Sales In Japan For October

This shows that the Japanese are some of the smartest people.:)

daschor
Nov 14, 2007, 09:20 PM
Not really. Most people don't need the Ultimate edition, they will do fine with Home Basic or Home Premium, neither of which are very expensive.

From what I can tell, even Home Basic costs as much as a Family Pack of Leopard. Whether people will "do fine" with these cheaper, crippled editions of Vista is a matter of defining what "fine" means to you.


Probably back in the 1980s when Windows literally was a joke. But by 1990 and Windows 3, it was the death knell for Apple.

That's laughable. Apple has certainly been through some tough times, but Windows has always been a joke, and (probably) always will be. Sure, the joke is old and stale and really more sad than funny now, but it is still a joke. Death knell for Apple? You sound like Mr. Dell.


Vista doesn't suck, and I doubt your immature OS would even be taken seriously. And no, they will not keep this lead. As others have said, this was a highly skewed comparison. A true comparison would be to compare the first week of Vista's sales with Leopard's sales.

Actually, a large number of Vista users would probably agree that it sucks. In fact, the sheer volume of requests for OEM Windows XP machines has forced Microsoft to extend their support for this legacy OS. If you have ever used Vista, and you compare it with Mac OS 10.4 or 10.5, it should be obvious that Vista has missed the boat. Sure, this article gives some figures that require intelligent interpretation - that doesn't make the figures untrue. The true comparison will only be possible after the fact, when the market share battle underway begins to shake out.


Windows is far from over. Get your iHead out of your iAss and come back down into iReality. Windows has 90% of the market for good reason. Windows is not "out," either. I don't even know what you mean by that. You do realize that Apple computers are overpriced, overhyped and underpowered PCs, right?

Sure, Windows is far from over. But to claim that Windows has 90% market share for "good reason" is to stretch the limits of credulity. What could the good reason possibly be? Because it is cheap? Because of monopoly business practices? Because it comes built-in with 90% of computers manufactured and sold in the retail market?

And claiming that Apple computers are overpriced, overhyped and underpowered PCs, well, that just completely demonstrates your ignorance of the concept of value (and reality). Apple computers are competitively priced, underappreciated and cutting-edge machines.

The evidence for competitive pricing is clear, in that the market share for these machines is going up at a significant rate, and compararable machines from other manufacturers are equally or more expensive. The evidence for underappreciated, is that many publications, corporations and other institutions fail to even consider Apple machines as an option, despite the fact that they are the most versatile computers on the market. And if you think Apple's machines are underpowered, just look at the pathetically slow machines that all the other PC manufacturers are trying to pawn off as "new" - Apple does not sell previous generation processors in their machines the way all the other manufacturers do.


Maybe you don't like Vista, and that's fine, but it is far from the piece of crap you claim. And if it can't be compared to Leopard, then why does Apple continue to feel the need to bash Vista every chance they get and then steal its feature set, like Time Machine? (Which was lovingly ripped straight from Vista. See: Previous Versions.)

Yes, myself and many others do not like Vista, because it is inferior and annoying to use. Apple bashes Vista because it's the only target Microsoft has provided - and it is a very suitable one at that. To claim that Time Machine was ripped off from Vista is just hilarious. Show me the Time Machine function in Vista, or any of a thousand other promised features that failed to materialize.

Vista is a poor substitute for Leopard - if you like it, that's your bag. But don't go spewing your own ignorance on the subject and act like you're a cut above.

Quillz
Nov 14, 2007, 09:28 PM
I don't even use Vista, by the way. But I'm tired of all these moronic blind Apple fanboys on message boards like this one. All I'm trying to do is keep these arguments as balanced as possible.

The bottom line is that each OS has its ups and downs, and they all copy from one another. It's competition, and it makes everything better in the end.

daschor
Nov 14, 2007, 09:48 PM
I don't even use Vista, by the way. But I'm tired of all these moronic blind Apple fanboys on message boards like this one. All I'm trying to do is keep these arguments as balanced as possible.

Balance is what is needed. Personal attacks, from anyone, not so much.

The bottom line is that each OS has its ups and downs, and they all copy from one another. It's competition, and it makes everything better in the end.

You are 100% correct.

I would add that you should at least try Vista to see how awful it is - it will make you thankful for whatever OS you are using.

:apple:

elppa
Nov 14, 2007, 09:54 PM
why does Apple continue to feel the need to bash Vista every chance they get and then steal its feature set, like Time Machine? (Which was lovingly ripped straight from Vista. See: Previous Versions.)

There are some big differences between Volume Shadow Copy and Time Machine. One is backup and one is revision control. This is obvious because time machine backs up to an external disk, while volume shadow copy store previous versions on the current disk.

Try doing a system wide search of your system as it looked two weeks ago?
Whoops, Volume Shadow Copy comes up short.

Try restoring a particular version of a file you save multiple times seven ago?
Whoops, time machine comes up short.

I love the way you come on here and criticise other people and for their views in quite a personal and offensive manner, yet fail to get your facts right.

Fukui
Nov 14, 2007, 10:33 PM
But most of this is due to the Font issues in Japan... !

What font problems?

AidenShaw
Nov 14, 2007, 11:05 PM
I don't even use Vista, by the way. But I'm tired of all these moronic blind Apple fanboys on message boards like this one.

Be careful that "moronic blind Apple fanboys" isn't interpreted as an ad hominem attack on any particular Apple fanboi...the moderators don't like that. ;)

Quillz
Nov 14, 2007, 11:45 PM
Balance is what is needed. Personal attacks, from anyone, not so much.



You are 100% correct.

I would add that you should at least try Vista to see how awful it is - it will make you thankful for whatever OS you are using.

:apple:
I have used Vista and it's not horrible at all. Worked great for me, and I had no issues with it at all. Funnily enough, I've had more issues with Leopard than I ever did with Vista. But I have a MacBook so I don't use Windows all that much.

Quillz
Nov 14, 2007, 11:47 PM
I love the way you come on here and criticise other people and for their views in quite a personal and offensive manner, yet fail to get your facts right.
Nice to know I'm loved around here. :D
Be careful that "moronic blind Apple fanboys" isn't interpreted as an ad hominem attack on any particular Apple fanboi...the moderators don't like that. ;)
Dunno, wasn't really commenting on anyone specifically, I just hate the really extreme Microsoft/Apple/Linux fanboys.

John Musbach
Nov 15, 2007, 12:04 AM
Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/14/leopard-overtakes-windows-os-sales-in-japan-for-october/)

This is great news, I agree that Leopard has a huge number of new features that make Leopard a great purchase and the purchase rate of Leopard shows that others agree as well. Hopefully Apple can keep this great quality up with future Mac OS releases as well. :)

PCMacUser
Nov 15, 2007, 03:09 AM
I really fail to see the significance of these sales figures.

Leopard can only be installed on a Mac computer (strictly speaking).

So, all it means is that Apple users in Japan are upgrading their operating system software, rather than buying new computers. So you could argue that while OS sales are up, Mac sales will be down...

And since it's just existing Apple users buying the software, why get so excited my beloved Apple Evangelists? Preaching to the converted perhaps?

I'm kinda lost here. If Apple believed in supplying their OS software to an open market (ie, not just Mac computers), then these figures would have some real value. But alas, they don't.

I have used Vista and it's not horrible at all. Worked great for me, and I had no issues with it at all. Funnily enough, I've had more issues with Leopard than I ever did with Vista. But I have a MacBook so I don't use Windows all that much.

I use both Vista and Leopard, and I have had problems with both of them. My PC is still set up dual booting with XP for compatibility and performance reasons (ever tried copying or deleting large files in Vista? - it's a joke), and I'm pretty close to removing Leopard and reinstalling Tiger on my iBook.

XP and Tiger are just so mature now - it's going to take a while for Vista and Leopard to get to this same level.

I'm not holding my breath.

Synchro
Nov 15, 2007, 03:26 AM
These stats are impressive, but bear in mind that the release was October 26th, so these stats were obtained from a mere 6 days of sales. Now that is impressive.

goosnarrggh
Nov 15, 2007, 05:58 AM
That's not true at all. Unix (which Mac OS X is, in fact Leopard is POSIX certified) is not nearly as susceptible to viruses as Window is.
In fact, Apple has registered the Intel version of Mac OS X Leopard with the Open Group for UNIX 03 certification. That is the distinguishing point which makes it legal to use the trademarked term "Unix" in reference to Mac OS X. Other operating systems may have been certified as POSIX-compliant, but they have not taken the extra step of becoming officially registered as "real" Unices. And if memory serves, Microsoft has dropped the POSIX compatibility layer from the non-enterprise editions of Vista.

You have to understand how it works under the hood to know why. The most basic explanation is that Windows runs in admin mode by default (the equivalent or root in Unix), and every single process has access to all the files on the disk, including the system files.
That is no longer totally true with Windows Vista. Of course, it's always been possible (but unpopular) to create non-administrator users in every NT-based version of Windows. And while FAT-based file systems do not support per-file ownership and security, NTFS always has.

But in Windows Vista, administrator accounts actually get two sets of credentials: one as a regular user, and one as an administrator. When an administrator logs in, only the "regular user" credentials are activated by default. When a program invoked by an administrator account attempts to do something which requires elevated privileges, that annoying pop-up which Apple decided to parody appears, requesting confirmation before the administrator credentials are temporarily activated, but only for that one program. Once the administrative action is finished, the "regular user" credentials are restored.

When a new account is created in Vista, it is a non-administrator by default. Non-administrator users must provide the username and password of an administrative user in order to perform any administrative task (and the offending program is then "run as" that administrative user).

nickane
Nov 15, 2007, 06:04 AM
This article is barely noteworthy and the flame wars that its caused are ridiculous. If we could get a comparison as to how many ppl bought tiger in the month of its inception it might be worth something. There seem to be a lot more ppl ready to buy 10.5.0 partly because Vista proved a disappointment which reimplemented Tiger's innovations poorly, and also because Leopard has a more impressive set of new features than any previous version of OS X.

At the end of the day, no one else brought out an OS that month, nor in the month of October previous.

Mac sales marketshare may be pushing 8% but it has yet to reach 5% in terms of computers in the wild, and I doubt that situation is any different in Japan. So the market pool for the 2 principal competing OS's were whatever proportion of that 5% that met the minimum spec for Leopard vs. whatever percentage of the other 95% could run Vista (a smaller proportion since Vista is so powerhungry) that HAD NOT BOUGHT IT IN THE BEST PART OF A YEAR THAT IT HAS BEEN AVAILABLE!!

The real surprise at the success of the Leopard launch is how many n00bs didn't have the patience to wait for 10.5.1...

koobcamuk
Nov 15, 2007, 06:07 AM
This article is barely noteworthy and the flame wars that its caused are ridiculous. If we could get a comparison as to how many ppl bought tiger in the month of its inception it might be worth something.

The real stat I am waiting for is:

As a percentage of total Mac owners, how many bought 10.5 compared to the same stats for 10.4.

total numbers are somewhat meaningless: less people had macs back then.

hectors92
Nov 15, 2007, 08:14 AM
the problem that apple has to deal with now are corporations, most of microsofts market share is only due to its corporate clients buying windows equipped machines in bulk, this been said however apple does have 15% of the consumer market share in the us which is a large improvement from its past shares..

50548
Nov 15, 2007, 01:20 PM
We're still here, Mr. Lawyer, but we don't need to comment....

You've managed to so discredit yourself with your embarrassing claims that there's nothing further that we can add.

Thanks, it was important to see the ultimate acknowledgement that you are, indeed, a PC zealot who never sees anything positive in what Apple does...this alone is enough to make me smile. :rolleyes:

As for the other zealots calling me names, I really enjoy it...just don't take my "moronic" comments that seriously...it just feels good to see Windows failing, as much as Mr. Dell and his famous quote of the millennium about Apple and its shareholders. I was there using Apple products in those "dark years" when you weren't even aware that Macs existed...so it really feels good to see you reacting so strongly to Mac-fanboyism now.

AidenShaw
Nov 15, 2007, 11:13 PM
I was there using Apple products in those "dark years" when you weren't even aware that Macs existed....

I was living in Switzerland using a loaded Mac IIfx when you were probably still in diapers.... :p

MacinDoc
Nov 16, 2007, 12:06 AM
The real stat I am waiting for is:

As a percentage of total Mac owners, how many bought 10.5 compared to the same stats for 10.4.

total numbers are somewhat meaningless: less people had macs back then.
Well, I can start you off with an estimate of the percentage of eligible Macs for which Leopard was purchased. Based on Apple's historic sales figures, about 19 million Macs were sold in the past 4 years and are able to run Leopard. Add a smattering of previous machines that can run it, and you come up with an estimate of 20 million machines. If 90% (18 million Macs) are still operational, then in the first 3 days of sales, 11% of eligible Macs were upgraded. Apple's own estimates were that 9% of the total installed user base upgraded in that period, but these figures do not account for Macs that do not meet the minimum requirements of Leopard. In either case, it appears that the percentage of Mac owners upgrading to Leopard in 1 weekend rivals the percentage of PCs running Vista, 9 months after its release. Leopard's release also far outshone that of Tiger, which took 39 days to sell 2 million copies (although admittedly to a significantly smaller installed base - about half the current number of Macs).

For reference, here's a good link (http://www.news.com/8301-13579_3-9807449-37.html).

I was living in Switzerland using a loaded Mac IIfx when you were probably still in diapers.... :p
Off topic: when I was in university using my Mac II, I was SO jealous of people who had the IIfx...