Unbalanced prices between USA and Europe

[mma]

With a US Dollar Depreciation the prices of electronic equipment become very competitive in States.
Of course it also holds true for IMacs.
E.g. In Switzerland (apple.ch) the cost of 24-inch 2.8GHz IMac is CHF 3,199.00
In States the same machine costs: $2,299.00 =~ 2,600 CHF. So there is almost 600 CHF = 530 $ difference in the price!
I suspect that for Euroland this difference must be even bigger.
It become practically possible to buy a Mac in States and have it shipped to Europe (e.g. by family/friends) pay taxes and
still have a slightly better price then you will get in your own country!! I wonder what are the chances that prices of Macs can be decreased in Europe. Can Apple announce soon some changes in their pricing policy to balance the prices? I haven't done any deep analysis of prices of machines of other vendors but I can feel that e.g. laptops are now much cheaper then they used to be say a year ago. So I suppose that other vendors already dropped they prices. After all if they are making all financial operation in USD they are having the same profits and they used to have...

[Eraserhead]

I dunno about Switzerland, but we pay 17.5% VAT, and that is included in the price, which makes up most of the difference.

[Much Ado]

I dunno about Switzerland, but we pay 17.5% VAT, and that is included in the price, which makes up most of the difference.

Well...

iMac USA= $1199

Converted to Sterling: £591

VAT added at 17.5%: £694

iMac UK= £799

Price difference: £105, $213.
Percentage overcharge: 15%

[rdowns]

These threads pop up quite often. As consumers, we all want the lowest prices possible.

As a business person who does business in another country, I can't begin to tell you how expensive it is to set up shop in another country. We had to open an office, hire local people, deal with language issues, regulatory issues in another country, separate web site and all the expenses that come with opening a new office.

The rates we charge are based on our costs, not an exchange rate that fluctuates.

[Blue Velvet]

Almost everything is cheaper in the US. Why should Macs be any different?

The average wage in the UK is about £25k, about US$50k... land, energy, transport; all more expensive in the UK. Goods are priced to their local market. See the Big Mac Index (http://www.economist.com/markets/indicators/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8649005).

[Brianstorm91]

It's rubbish, isn't it.

[OllyW]

These threads pop up quite often. As consumers, we all want the lowest prices possible.

As a business person who does business in another country, I can't begin to tell you how expensive it is to set up shop in another country. We had to open an office, hire local people, deal with language issues, regulatory issues in another country, separate web site and all the expenses that come with opening a new office.

The rates we charge are based on our costs, not an exchange rate that fluctuates.

Don't you have to pay the staff who work in your own country then? :rolleyes:

Initial start up costs are obviously high but Apple has been established in Europe for many, many years so this argument can't be dragged out for eternity. All the goods come from China these days so they can't even use the extra transport costs excuse.

Yes we have higher taxes, everyone knows that and exchange rates fluctuate. But Apple has managed to get away with charging us high prices for years and I'm sure they will carry on that way as long as we are buying their products.

[mma]

Almost everything is cheaper in the US. Why should Macs be any different?

The average wage in the UK is about £25k, about US$50k... land, energy, transport; all more expensive in the UK. Goods are priced to their local market. See the Big Mac Index (http://www.economist.com/markets/indicators/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8649005).

The thing is that other products actually got cheaper (at least observing prices of laptops/english books) with deprecation of USD and prices of apple computers are rather constant. And those prices were set long time ago when USD was much more expensive.

Say that the cost of IMac was £500 a year ago. Now British reseller gets it for £400. The cost of transport etc has not changed. So it means that onthe same exact thing they are now making 100 £ profit more if they charge you the same price they used to charge a year ago.

[mma]

These threads pop up quite often. As consumers, we all want the lowest prices possible.

As a business person who does business in another country, I can't begin to tell you how expensive it is to set up shop in another country. We had to open an office, hire local people, deal with language issues, regulatory issues in another country, separate web site and all the expenses that come with opening a new office.

The rates we charge are based on our costs, not an exchange rate that fluctuates.

Yes I can can understand your point. But my point is different: the price difference is getting that big that in same cases it will be actually cheaper, a least for IMacs to buy them in States and take care by yourself to import them to Europe. And I am sure that is something which Apple can do cheaper as they operate on much bigger scale.

Note also that if I am not mistaken Apple has a single European center in in Irleland/Cork and acutully all machines are shipped from there. And all offices for all countries are located there (hotlines,internet shops).

[PMR]

My iMac in Portugal- 1500€

My iMac in USA - $1500


1€ = $1.466

So, my Mac costed me around $2200 US Dollars which is almost the price of the flagship iMac.

This sucks a lot!!

[Hmac]

My iMac in Portugal- 1500€

My iMac in USA - $1500


1€ = $1.466

So, my Mac costed me around $2200 US Dollars which is almost the price of the flagship iMac.

This sucks a lot!!Value Added Tax in Portugal is 21% isn't it?

[Yuppi]

Be happy to live in Switzerland. It is the least expensive country for devices because of their low VAT. I used to live there some time ago and now I am in Sweden. And all of a sudden I find Germany very cheap...
And yes, this discussion is very old. But if you want to be really shocked you better compare the english version of Adobe software with the english version sold in europe. THAT is a rip-off in my eyes.

[cube]

I dunno about Switzerland, but we pay 17.5% VAT, and that is included in the price, which makes up most of the difference.

VAT in Switzerland is 7.6%. That does not account for the difference.

[PMR]

Value Added Tax in Portugal is 21% isn't it?

Yes it is :mad:

[mma]

And yes, this discussion is very old.

One more time this disussion is not very old - The value of USD to CHF/EURO is dropping and is it setting new historical records. Dollar was never so cheap! And prices for Macs has been set few years ago in completely different economical situation when exchange ratio was very different.
That's why for example Air Bus is in troubles - their production cost is in Euros and they sell in Dollars. Every time dollars looses 5 euro cents it means for them 1 billion euro lost. That's why they started to talk to moving their production outside of Euro Zone. And it become that big issue only recently. But for Apple situation is exactly reversed!! So I supposed that they are making big benefits if they sell their stuff in most of other currencies then USD.

[G4DP]

Isn't it obvious, were paying for the privalige of El Jobso!

You can't think Apple would actually expect Americans to actually have to pay a fair price for anything do you? Of course not, so they make the rest of the world make up for it, but screwing us over with the exorbitant prices.

Even with VAT considered, in the UK we are paying $500 more for the stock Mac Pro. You poor buggers in Portugal with 21% VAT.

The will come a time when Apple has to adjust it's prices or it will lose business. Unfortunately it will be at some rediculous point when the $ is even more worthless than it already is.

Oh Apple is making huge profirs at the minute, the Processor chips have halved in price over 12 months, yet Apple are still charging the same amount for the final products, with everything else - RAM and HD - also being so much cheaper now, they are making almost 100% more profit on iMacs and Mac Pro than they were 12 months ago, also we seemed to get charged that extra special Apple Tax for not living in the US.

[takao]

Note also that if I am not mistaken Apple has a single European center in in Irleland/Cork and acutully all machines are shipped from there. And all offices for all countries are located there (hotlines,internet shops).

not really. i think they also heave some centers across europe since it wouldn't make sense to have a shipping center on an island ;)

i remember my BTO mac mini went directly from rotterdam to me and the keyboard came to me from czech republic

[heatmiser]

Oh Apple is making huge profirs at the minute, the Processor chips have halved in price over 12 months, yet Apple are still charging the same amount for the final products, with everything else - RAM and HD - also being so much cheaper now, they are making almost 100% more profit on iMacs and Mac Pro than they were 12 months ago, also we seemed to get charged that extra special Apple Tax for not living in the US.

This is all completely true, but don't expect much agreement. No matter how clear as day the evidence is, you'll still be bleated out by the "Apple is just; Apple is fair!" crowd.

[Brianstorm91]

Maybe we're paying for Steve Jobs' keynote wardrobe :rolleyes:

[Hmac]

The USA has no VAT, nor any national sales tax, but most (not all) states in the US have a Sales Tax, which is a consumption tax, a sort of value-added tax. It's typically between 4% - 7% and is charged at the point of sale. If you buy something from a store in a different state, such as online shopping, that vendor isn't usually subject to the laws of a different state and doesn't have to collect the tax. If that vendor has a retail presence in that state, then they do have to charge the tax. Online purchases from the Apple Store do include sales tax for the purchaser's home state in most cases because Apple has so many retail outlets around the country. If I physically go to the B&H Photo store in New York to buy a Mac, I'd have to pay New York sales tax. BUT, if I order that same computer from them online from my home state, the sales tax isn't charged. That has saved me over $1000 on Mac purchases over the last 6 months (MacPro, ACD30x2, MBP), not to mention sales tax on many, many photography purchases over the last few years. Technically, I'm supposed to declare those purchases and pay my home state the 6.5% sales/use tax, but there is no practical way to enforce that law in this state (and most others) for non-business consumers and so it isn't enforced. Saving that 6.5% is the reason I usually buy this kind of stuff online rather than walking into the store to buy it. Even if the MSRP is the same from B&H as it is from the Apple Store, as Apple computers are, I still save the 6.5%.

[serega]

In Washington State we pay 8.9% sales tax.

[Leon Kowalski]

Oh Apple is making huge profirs at the minute, the Processor chips have halved
in price over 12 months, yet Apple are still charging the same amount for the final
products, with everything else - RAM and HD - also being so much cheaper now...
All very true, but Apple's goal is to sell products at the highest price the traffic will
bear. "Passing the savings on to you" is not considered a high priority in Cupertino.

Just curious: Have Dell, HP, and other PC suppliers adjusted their prices downwards in
step with the plunging value of the once-mighty US dollar? If not, neither will Apple.

...nothin' personal, eurodudes -- it's just bidness,

LK

[cube]

The prices overseas have always been marked-up. It has nothing to do with the dollar devaluation.

[Eraserhead]

They only speak one language in the US (English), whereas in Europe there are 23 official EU Languages:


български (Bălgarski) - BG - Bulgarian
Čeština - CS - Czech
Dansk - DA - Danish
Deutsch - DE - German
Eesti - ET - Estonian
Elinika - EL - Greek
English - EN
Español - ES - Spanish
Français - FR - French
Gaeilge - GA - Irish
Italiano - IT - Italian
Latviesu valoda - LV - Latvian
Lietuviu kalba - LT - Lithuanian
Magyar - HU - Hungarian
Malti - MT - Maltese
Nederlands - NL - Dutch
Polski - PL - Polish
Português - PT - Portuguese
Română - RO - Romanian
Slovenčina - SK - Slovak
Slovenščina - SL - Slovene
Suomi - FI - Finnish
Svenska - SV - Swedish


All of which probably have to be supported by Apple, and this requires a fair bit of extra work. Also many languages have different accents, and require different keyboard layouts which is also expensive to support.

Macs have come down in price in the EU though, my Macbook which I bought in 2005 cost £899, and the mid range model now is £829, which is a fair drop.

[Brianstorm91]

Eraserhead, why does it appear on your list that English is spoken in no countries?

[Eraserhead]

Eraserhead, why does it appear on your list that English is spoken in no countries?

English is English in English ;).

The other languages have their name in their native language and their name in English.

[Brianstorm91]

Right you are :o
Moving on.
Nice weather, isn't it.

[Leon Kowalski]

Eraserhead, why does it appear on your list that English is spoken in no countries?

That's because the English don't speak English...

...they use some strange dialect of 'Murican,

LK



English is English in English ;).

...in any number base, the number base is 10,

LK

[GoodWatch]

Almost everything is cheaper in the US. Why should Macs be any different?

The average wage in the UK is about £25k, about US$50k... land, energy, transport; all more expensive in the UK. Goods are priced to their local market. See the Big Mac Index (http://www.economist.com/markets/indicators/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8649005).

I invite you to go to the Portugese Apple site. The Portugese average wages are lower, land, energy, etc; all less expensive in Portugal. But that Euro price however.......

[ceres]

I invite you to go to the Portugese Apple site. The Portugese average wages are lower, land, energy, etc; all less expensive in Portugal. But that Euro price however.......

...is very unfortunate but Apple would be risking people let´s say from UK buying in Portugal. Due to free market ec regulations nothing could prevent them (UK residents).

[GoodWatch]

...is very unfortunate but Apple would be risking people let´s say from UK buying in Portugal. Due to free market ec regulations nothing could prevent them (UK residents).

That is not the issue here.

[G4DP]

Apple are clearly in the business to make money, but given the change in the $ and the outdated specs, they may soon find that the only people wiling to buy are you guys in the US. And i'll give you some credit, I don't think even you guys will carry on buying them given how much of a con they currently are.

[G4DP]

Well just been on the dell site built this:

Components
Intel® Core™ 2 Quad-Core Processor Q6600 (2.40GHz, 1066MHz, 8MB cache)
Genuine Windows® XP Professional - English
Base Warranty - 1 Year XPS Premium Hardware Support (incl. Gaming and On-Site Support)
Logitech QuickCam Express Plus - free headset included
Monitor Not included
4096MB 800MHz Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM [4x1024]
1TB Serial ATA RAID 0 Stripe (2x500GB 7200rpm drives with DataBurst™ cache)
16x DVD+/-RW & 48x CDRW/DVD Combo Drive
SINGLE 768MB nVidia® GeForce® 8800 GTX graphics card
Accessories
Sound Blaster® X-Fi Xtreme Music PCI Soundcard
No Speakers
Dell™ Enhanced USB Multimedia Keyboard - UK/Irish (QWERTY)
Dell Optical Scroll Premium Mouse
19-in-1 Media Card reader
No Modem
Microsoft® Works 8.0 - English
Services & Software
No Accidental Damage Support
No Security/Anti-Virus Protection - English
Also Includes
English Documentation with No Power Cord (for Non H2C Systems)
D127204
Dimension Order - UK
Base Warranty - 1 Year XPS Premium Hardware Support (incl. Gaming and On-Site Support)
Dell Internet Order.
XPS 720 Resource CD ( XP only)

for £1,444.25
Includes VAT & Shipping.

Sorry but Apple are starting to get really left behind. 4GB of RAM for god sake, 1 TB of storage, and it's stilll cheaper than the recommended Mac Pro.

[Leon Kowalski]

And i'll give you some credit, I don't think even you guys will carry on
buying them given how much of a con they currently are.

Agreed. And it worries me. I have no love for Apple hardware, but OS-X is
the best (only) reasonably-priced, stable, high-quality unix system available,
and the only unix platform with an acceptable base of "home computing"
software. Linux is fine for servers, but it can't compete in client space.

If Apple computers become uncompetitive due to a growing price disparity
relative to commodity PC hardware, Apple-funded OS-X development will
suffer. I'd be delighted to see Apple license OS-X to run on ordinary PCs and
allow the free market to decide whether Apple hardware deserves to survive.

LK

[cube]

Sorry but Apple are starting to get really left behind.

http://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/OffersOfProduct/885646_-travelmate-7520g-502g25-lx-tl50x-080-acer.html

[Hmac]

Apple are clearly in the business to make money, but given the change in the $ and the outdated specs, they may soon find that the only people wiling to buy are you guys in the US. And i'll give you some credit, I don't think even you guys will carry on buying them given how much of a con they currently are.
Oh jeez. Another "Death of Apple" predictor.....how many times since 1984 have we heard this stuff?

[Hmac]

If Apple computers become uncompetitive due to a growing price disparity
relative to commodity PC hardware, Apple-funded OS-X development will
suffer. I'd be delighted to see Apple license OS-X to run on ordinary PCs and
allow the free market to decide whether Apple hardware deserves to survive.

LK

Are you TOTALLY unaware of the history of the personal computer industry?

[nickf]

If Apple computers become uncompetitive due to a growing price disparity
relative to commodity PC hardware, Apple-funded OS-X development will
suffer. I'd be delighted to see Apple license OS-X to run on ordinary PCs and
allow the free market to decide whether Apple hardware deserves to survive.

LK

I think it highly unlikely that Steve will license OS X to run on nasty plastic PCs (similarly, remember what happened to StarMax 4000?). And besides, he doesn't need to. According to John Fortt's blog in Fortune, Apple has $15bn stashed away at the moment. When I was a boy that was a lot of money.

[GoodWatch]

Well just been on the dell site built this:

Components
Intel® Core™ 2 Quad-Core Processor Q6600 (2.40GHz, 1066MHz, 8MB cache)
Genuine Windows® XP Professional - English
Base Warranty - 1 Year XPS Premium Hardware Support (incl. Gaming and On-Site Support)/ SNIP/

I know I sound like a prat right now but that isn’t the issue either. Apple are in the position to command those prices in Europe because they clearly have a product that is in demand. The complete package they offer still doesn’t have enough competition to persuade them to do anything about the European price level. Why should they?

If you want an iMac or other product you just have to fork out that cash. I did, and I don’t regret it. The only thing that raises my eyebrows however is the way our US cousins constantly sweet-talk this difference. Apple are treating their home market better than the Euro market. It is their prerogative. This will become a never-ending story but I just want to list a few prices and ask if those that reside in the US still find them acceptable in terms of value for money and competitiveness.

20” 2.4 GHz. iMac base model: $ 1668
24” 2.4 GHz. iMac base model: $ 2013
8 GB iPod Nano: $ 273
Mac Mini, base model: $ 689

All prices are without local taxes.

[Eraserhead]

Agreed. And it worries me. I have no love for Apple hardware, but OS-X is
the best (only) reasonably-priced, stable, high-quality unix system available,
and the only unix platform with an acceptable base of "home computing"
software. Linux is fine for servers, but it can't compete in client space.

If Apple computers become uncompetitive due to a growing price disparity
relative to commodity PC hardware, Apple-funded OS-X development will
suffer. I'd be delighted to see Apple license OS-X to run on ordinary PCs and
allow the free market to decide whether Apple hardware deserves to survive.

Are you TOTALLY unaware of the history of the personal computer industry?

LK

Quite, the reason Apple is the only surviving company from the beginning of the PC revolution is because their equipment was expensive enough for them to be able to plough money into R&D for the future. That the Apple II had large margins is why they managed to develop the Mac. And is a large reason why Altair, Radio Shack and Commodore aren't 100 billion dollar companies.

[GoodWatch]

I think it highly unlikely that Steve will license OS X to run on nasty plastic PCs (similarly, remember what happened to StarMax 4000?). And besides, he doesn't need to. According to John Fortt's blog in Fortune, Apple has $15bn stashed away at the moment. When I was a boy that was a lot of money.

Not all PCs are nasty plastic. But no PC is an iMac....

[Eraserhead]

Well just been on the dell site built this:

<<Dell System>>

Sorry but Apple are starting to get really left behind. 4GB of RAM for god sake, 1 TB of storage, and it's stilll cheaper than the recommended Mac Pro.


a) Its not a workstation, it doesn't use a Xeon processor.
b) Apple will up the specs of their computers when they stop selling record numbers of Macs every quarter.

[Hmac]

20” 2.4 GHz. iMac base model: $ 1668
24” 2.4 GHz. iMac base model: $ 2013
8 GB iPod Nano: $ 273
Mac Mini, base model: $ 689

All prices are without local taxes.

If they are selling, generating sales in a volume that satisfies Apple, then yes...they have value and are competitive.

[koobcamuk]

And is a large reason why Altair, Radio Shack and Commodore aren't 100 billion dollar companies.

How large? :rolleyes:

[GradientMac]

It's like that in Canada too, our dollar is higher than the US's and we still get over charged, but every company does it, except, well Wal-Mart :P

[GoodWatch]

Quite, the reason Apple is the only surviving company from the beginning of the PC revolution is because their equipment was expensive enough for them to be able to plough money into R&D for the future. That the Apple II had large margins is why they managed to develop the Mac. And is a large reason why Altair, Radio Shack and Commodore aren't 100 billion dollar companies.

No. Hewlett Packard is and they are a 104 billion dollar company.

[GoodWatch]

If they are selling, generating sales in a volume that satisfies Apple, then yes...they have value and are competitive.

No, you don't understand. Project these prices onto the US market.

[Eraserhead]

How large? :rolleyes:

I suggest you do some reading up (http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/total-share.ars/1).

Basically if you aren't making much money you can't develop new systems and venture capital firms won't invest unless they can get a decent return if you are successful.

[Hmac]

No, you don't understand. Project these prices onto the US market.I do understand. Sales is what matters.

No, at that price those computers wouldn't be competitive in the US to Apple's satisfaction. In the Netherlands, those prices appear to be fine. If they weren't generating enough sales at a given price point in a given country, Apple would change the prices, right?

[gnasher729]

No. Hewlett Packard is and they are a 104 billion dollar company.

But Hewlett Packard is not a computer company. It is a printer company:rolleyes: Sorry, not a printer company. A highly successful printer ink manufacturer.

[Eraserhead]

No. Hewlett Packard is and they are a 104 billion dollar company.

Apple (http://finance.google.com/finance?q=AAPL) is actually a $170 billion company, who is worth more than IBM (http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:IBM) ($150 billion). HP (http://finance.google.com/finance?q=HPQ) are worth $130 billion. (links are to the stock pages on Google Finance)

[cube]

Apple is a $170 billion iPod company.

[Eraserhead]

Apple is a $170 billion iPod company.

In the last quarter 50% of Apple's revenue was Mac, and 25% iPod and 25% Retail/Software. Unfortunately no figures are given for segment-wise profits. (source (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/10/22results.html))

[cube]

The market value is not about sales, it's about perception.

[Eraserhead]

The market value is not about sales, it's about perception.

They are selling 2 million Macs a quarter, which is more than ever and last Christmas their retail stores made more money per square foot than Tiffany (http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2006/12/26/6395). These are perceptions that have little to do with the iPod, especially if they are making a lot of their revenue from Macs.

[Hmac]

The market value is not about sales, it's about perception.

So if people in the Netherlands perceive that Macs cost too much in the Netherlands, they won't buy them, sales will decrease, and the market value will decrease. Yes?

[GoodWatch]

Apple (http://finance.google.com/finance?q=AAPL) is actually a $170 billion company, who is worth more than IBM (http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:IBM) ($150 billion). HP (http://finance.google.com/finance?q=HPQ) are worth $130 billion. (links are to the stock pages on Google Finance)

What is your point? I just stated that HP were there before Apple even existed and they are still there. Well, I didn't state that but Apple isn't the ONLY company that survived the early PC days. Djeez, you don't have to prove anything to me.

[cube]

People would don't invest in an alternative platform provider, they invest in a monopolic music player vendor.

[Eraserhead]

What is your point? I just stated that HP were there before Apple even existed and they are still there.

HP were in the Mini-Computer market in the 1970's these aren't the same thing. Look at this (http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/total-share.ars/1).

EDIT: In your previous post you implied that HP is the only company worth $100 billion dollars, sorry I misread your post.

People would don't invest in an alternative platform provider, they invest in a monopolic music player vendor.

Investors care about profits, they don't care about market share. Apple's Mac business is very profitable so its a large part of their value.

[cube]

So if people in the Netherlands perceive that Macs cost too much in the Netherlands, they won't buy them, sales will decrease, and the market value will decrease. Yes?

It's not about what customers perceive. It's about investors being convinced the company will go up or down.

[cube]

Investors care about profits, they don't care about market share. Apple's Mac business is very profitable so its a large part of their value.

Apple has a P/E ratio of 50. That is not about profits.

[GoodWatch]

HP were in the Mini-Computer market in the 1970's these aren't the same thing. Look at this (http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/total-share.ars/1).

It is unwise to quote web sources because I could do the same:

HP is acknowledged by Wired (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wired_Magazine) magazine as the producer of the world's first personal computer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer), in 1968, the Hewlett-Packard 9100A (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett-Packard_9100A).[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett_Packard#_note-10) HP called it a desktop calculator because, as Bill Hewlett said, "If we had called it a computer, it would have been rejected by our customers' computer gurus because it didn't look like an IBM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_mainframe). We therefore decided to call it a calculator, and all such nonsense disappeared." An engineering triumph at the time, the logic circuit was produced without any integrated circuits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_circuits); the assembly of the CPU having been entirely executed in discrete components. With CRT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathode_ray_tube) display, magnetic-card storage, and printer, the price was around $5000.

You don't have to defend Apple on my account. Relax :cool:

[Eraserhead]

It is unwise to quote web sources because I could do the same:

HP is acknowledged by Wired (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wired_Magazine) magazine as the producer of the world's first personal computer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer), in 1968, the Hewlett-Packard 9100A (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett-Packard_9100A).[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett_Packard#_note-10) HP called it a desktop calculator because, as Bill Hewlett said, "If we had called it a computer, it would have been rejected by our customers' computer gurus because it didn't look like an IBM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_mainframe). We therefore decided to call it a calculator, and all such nonsense disappeared." An engineering triumph at the time, the logic circuit was produced without any integrated circuits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_circuits); the assembly of the CPU having been entirely executed in discrete components. With CRT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathode_ray_tube) display, magnetic-card storage, and printer, the price was around $5000.

You don't have to defend Apple on my account. Relax :cool:

This is true, I think you've beaten me :p. I'm just arguing for the sake of it really, its fun sometimes.

Apple has a P/E ratio of 50. That is not about profits.

OK true, therefore Apples stock is mostly priced on potential. The iPod market is currently virtually saturated. So its not about that then.

This is the last post I'm making in this thread as Goodwatch says I'm getting worked up about it.

[GoodWatch]

This is true, I think you've beaten me :p. I'm just arguing for the sake of it really, its fun sometimes.



OK true, therefore Apples stock is mostly priced on potential. The iPod market is currently virtually saturated. So its not about that then.

This is the last post I'm making in this thread as Goodwatch says I'm getting worked up about it.

Frans says: "it is way past you bed time anyway" :p

[Hmac]

It's not about what customers perceive. It's about investors being convinced the company will go up or down.
It's entirely about what customers perceive. The Nederlander that asked the question thinks he's paying too much for Apple hardware. Aapparently the majority of Europeans don't agree with him about market value of Apple products since Apple sales in Europe have grown by more than 30% each year over the last 3 years.

[Eraserhead]

Frans says: "it is way past you bed time anyway" :p

Given that I was up until 5am on Thursday finishing some work, and I'm still fairly tired that is true. :cool:

[cube]

OK true, therefore Apples stock is mostly priced on potential. The iPod market is currently virtually saturated. So its not about that then.


Most of the soaring came from the iPod, but I think lately the price has increased mostly because of market share gains as Macs are seen now as Windows machines.

[GoodWatch]

It's entirely about what customers perceive. The Nederlander that asked the question thinks he's paying too much for Apple hardware. Aapparently the majority of Europeans don't agree with him about market value of Apple products since Apple sales in Europe have grown by more than 30% each year over the last 3 years.

Is forum member MMA (the OP) a Dutchman (or woman). How do you know this? :confused:

[GoodWatch]

Given that I was up until 5am on Thursday finishing some work, and I'm still fairly tired that is true. :cool:

"This is the last post I'm making in this thread" :p

[Hmac]

Is forum member MMA (the OP) a Dutchman (or woman). How do you know this? :confused:YOU are the Netherlander to whom I was referring...

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=4594273&postcount=39

[cube]

It's entirely about what customers perceive. The Nederlander that asked the question thinks he's paying too much for Apple hardware. Aapparently the majority of Europeans don't agree with him about market value of Apple products since Apple sales in Europe have grown by more than 30% each year over the last 3 years.

This is a PC country. I see iPods, not a Mac invasion.

[Hmac]

This is a PC country. I see iPods, not a Mac invasion.
If Apple is OK with that, I'm OK with that.

I don't care what you buy. As long as you keep sending money to Apple Inc. to help fund R&D for my computers, I'm happy.

[cube]

I don't care what you buy. As long as you keep sending money to Apple Inc. to help fund R&D for my computers, I'm happy.

I just bought an Acer because the Macbook is lame for the price.

[Hmac]

I just bought an Acer because the Macbook is lame for the price.

If I were on a tight budget, I might have had to settle for an Acer too.

[cube]

If I were on a tight budget, I might have had to settle for an Acer too.

Nothing about budget. Just didn't want to pay for a crippled overpriced PC.

[Blue Velvet]

This thread has gone on long enough. We get the identical and duplicate topic every couple of weeks or so, the last few posts are essentially a chat between two or three people about PCs... nothing more remains to be said until the next one.