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MacRumors
Dec 18, 2007, 07:36 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Apple has seeded developers with two updates tonight.

The first is the Mac OS X 10.5.2 (9C7) update which lists fixes to 76 distinct issues. Bug fixes range from memory leaks, various printing issues, SMB support and more. Apple issued Mac OS X 10.5.1 in November (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/15/apple-releases-first-leopard-update-10-5-1/) and has recently updated (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/12/17/apple-updates-retail-leopard-to-10-5-1/) retail copies of Leopard to include the full 10.5.1 version. A Page 2 rumor (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/12/05/mac-os-10-5-2-mac-pro-update-at-macworld/) pegs the Mac OS X 10.5.2 final release at Macworld Expo in January.

Next, Apple has finally seeded Java SE 6 Preview 8 for Leopard. Apple had been secretive about the Java 6 support for Leopard and the product launch was met with disappointment (http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2202328/apple-leopard-stomach-java) amongst Java developers hoping for support for the latest version. Tonight's release provides an implementation of Sun's Java SE 6 for Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) and includes Java SE 6 version 1.6.0_01. This latest seed requires a 64-bit capable Intel-powered Mac and is described as having received only limited testing thus far.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/12/18/apple-seeds-mac-os-x-10-5-2-and-java-se-6-preview-8-for-leopard/)



maverick808
Dec 18, 2007, 07:37 PM
Is there a changelog for 10.5.2 available?

emotion
Dec 18, 2007, 07:40 PM
Apple: please fix Mail.app. It's pretty buggy in Leopard.

macinfojunkie
Dec 18, 2007, 07:43 PM
Apple: please fix Mail.app. It's pretty buggy in Leopard.

And safari, Wifi reliability, Macbook Pro wake from sleep and Quicktime! Leopard is quite the roachfest at the moment IMHO!

Taylor C
Dec 18, 2007, 07:45 PM
Would love to see a changelog too.

dr_lha
Dec 18, 2007, 07:47 PM
Would love to see a changelog too.
Good luck, they barely release a proper changelog when they actually release an update, let alone a pre-release to developers.

emotion
Dec 18, 2007, 07:48 PM
And safari, Wifi reliability, Macbook Pro wake from sleep and Quicktime! Leopard is quite the roachfest at the moment IMHO!

I won't disagree.

It's still nice despite all that but it needs some polish for sure.

iJawn108
Dec 18, 2007, 07:52 PM
So does this mean java 6 will be 64bit only :\


if that's the case and apple is allready rejecting it's 32 bit user base... I dunno what to say.

al256
Dec 18, 2007, 07:53 PM
Safari crashes so much more in 10.5.1... I hate it.

appleguru1
Dec 18, 2007, 07:55 PM
iJawn108: No, I think they'll do a 32/64bit ub when they release it... they still have much work to do.

And J2SE6 DP8?! how the hell did I miss 1-7???

In any case, can anyone confirm if the java DP is available to all ADC members?

luminosity
Dec 18, 2007, 07:55 PM
I must say that I feel pretty secure on Tiger right now, which seems to be comparatively rock solid. Obviously, it doesn't have the same features, but it's not like using Windows 3.1 or some such thing.

firefoxnx
Dec 18, 2007, 07:55 PM
Downloading Java 6 for Leopard now! But its excruciatingly slow.. 40KB/s

yetanotherdave
Dec 18, 2007, 07:56 PM
Everythings pretty good on my system, except mail.app which really really sucks. It badly needs an update. It's slow, it hangs, when I select a mail item or rss item, it often takes 3s+ to load it, despite it being stored locally.

ryanw
Dec 18, 2007, 07:57 PM
Apple: please fix Mail.app. It's pretty buggy in Leopard.

I installed clean but brought in my mail from my OSX 10.4 tiger install. I have over 4gb of mail doing my personal and business mail. Mail.app has worked great for me.

alenm88
Dec 18, 2007, 07:57 PM
Does somebody has wi-fi issues?

Sometimes i am browsing and safari says i am not connected to the internet but I AM! :mad:

Is it just me or somey body else has the sam issues :confused:

appleguru1
Dec 18, 2007, 07:58 PM
Does somebody has wi-fi issues?

Sometimes i am browsing and safari says i am not connected to the internet but I AM! :mad:

Is it just me or somey body else has the sam issues :confused:

No, its not just you.. depends on your configuration, but leopards wifi support is screwy as all hell.

emotion
Dec 18, 2007, 07:59 PM
I installed clean but brought in my mail from my OSX 10.4 tiger install. I have over 4gb of mail doing my personal and business mail. Mail.app has worked great for me.

All four machines I have access to have clean installs. All display varying degrees of bugginess with Mail.app.

I normally wait for .2 releases as a rule for Apple OSs but was drawn in by the new shiny tweaks. I still don't regret that.

appleguru1
Dec 18, 2007, 08:01 PM
Downloading Java 6 for Leopard now! But its excruciatingly slow.. 40KB/s

Ditto.. 38K/s, 22mins to go :/

BWhaler
Dec 18, 2007, 08:05 PM
76 bug fixes?

For Leopard?

At this rate, it may be 10.5.8 before Leopard gets to release quality.

Let's hope Apple has fixed many, many more bugs than 76 and Apple is just no disclosing the full list or full count.

Leopard is a total train wreck on the quality front. Such a shame since it is a great OS otherwise.

I also hope Apple took the opportunity to re-think how Spaces and Mail tasks work. The functional design seems like it is something born in Redmond, on a bad day. A very bad day.

Oh, and getting Back to Mac to actually work would be nice, because, you know, it's one of the core upgrade features and all.

balwx
Dec 18, 2007, 08:05 PM
I noticed too that mail is very buggy. it has frozen many times so far:(

Telp
Dec 18, 2007, 08:06 PM
Hopefully it fixes some finder issues where my finder crashes. Also, some firewall issues, especially the itunes sharing one...Or is that not a bug? Its annoying either way.

twoodcc
Dec 18, 2007, 08:06 PM
well, looks like 10.5.2 at macworld....

psychofreak
Dec 18, 2007, 08:08 PM
well, looks like 10.5.2 at macworld....

My Leopard is perfect, but I have a friend with a Samsung G600, and I recently switched him to the Mac...unfortunately the phone doesn't work with Leopard (unless someone can find me a driver) and I hope 10.5.2 will bring support :)

maverick808
Dec 18, 2007, 08:12 PM
My Leopard is perfect

Well, you better call up Apple and tell them not to bother with 10.5.2 then. Silly Apple, thinking they've found and fixed bugs when you know there's no bugs at all. :)

psychofreak
Dec 18, 2007, 08:16 PM
Well, you better call up Apple and tell them not to bother with 10.5.2 then. Silly Apple, thinking they've found and fixed bugs when you know there's no bugs at all. :)I said My Leopard, meaning that I'm not personally desperate for 10.5.2, I'm by no means suggesting that there are no bugs at all...

emotion
Dec 18, 2007, 08:18 PM
Do you have a link to this "My Leopard"? It sound just the ticket.


:)

lekun
Dec 18, 2007, 08:19 PM
Any indication of future hardware in this seed?

psychofreak
Dec 18, 2007, 08:23 PM
Do you have a link to this "My Leopard"? It sound just the ticket.


:)

Yes, its here:)

EDIT: Link removed, apparently I'm not allowed to share already-perfected internal builds from Apple

deputy_doofy
Dec 18, 2007, 08:23 PM
I cannot wait. I refuse to upgrade my G5 until I see a less buggy Leopard.

chelsel
Dec 18, 2007, 08:24 PM
I must say that I feel pretty secure on Tiger right now, which seems to be comparatively rock solid. Obviously, it doesn't have the same features, but it's not like using Windows 3.1 or some such thing.

Same here. Had loads of problems with Leopard, not to mention incompatibility with dozens of great programs.

Why trade rock solid Tiger for dubious improvements and hundreds upon hundreds of bugs.

(Dubious improvements based on the fact that before Leopard, Tiger was the 'best' operating system in the world... can't improve on the best that much can you? Apparently not!)

nuckinfutz
Dec 18, 2007, 08:24 PM
As always your mileage will vary with a new OS. My mail.app doesn't hang but sometimes when it has been open for a while it stops send/receive and will not shot down.

I haven't really pushed any boundaries in Leopard but the new features to me are well worth any growing pains. I've used the new Google infused Addressbook features and iCal is now something I'll actually try. Hell I've even used Automator for some basic things.

Software is never "done" and Apple no exception. It's nice to see Java 6 coming but let's be honest. You have people here sounding off like Leopard is the antichrist because a feature or two doesn't work well and yet another group sounding off about the lack of a feature.

Software developers know they can't win..they're damned either way so they may as well ship stuff when they feel they have things ready enough.

flyinmac
Dec 18, 2007, 08:35 PM
64-bit capable processor a requirement for Java?

Well, there goes Java for the CoreDuos and G4's. Goodbye iMac and Mac Mini CoreDuos (and of course the MacBook and MacBook Pros). Now you'll need a Core2Duo or better.

Man, that was short. Who'd have thought it would be Java that would kill-off the 32-BIT systems?

mdriftmeyer
Dec 18, 2007, 08:35 PM
Absolute ********!

Java 6 is available only for Leopard?

This completely eliminates any interest in doing Java on Apple for me. I'll focus on Java for Linux only.

mdriftmeyer
Dec 18, 2007, 08:38 PM
As always your mileage will vary with a new OS. My mail.app doesn't hang but sometimes when it has been open for a while it stops send/receive and will not shot down.

I haven't really pushed any boundaries in Leopard but the new features to me are well worth any growing pains. I've used the new Google infused Addressbook features and iCal is now something I'll actually try. Hell I've even used Automator for some basic things.

Software is never "done" and Apple no exception. It's nice to see Java 6 coming but let's be honest. You have people here sounding off like Leopard is the antichrist because a feature or two doesn't work well and yet another group sounding off about the lack of a feature.

Software developers know they can't win..they're damned either way so they may as well ship stuff when they feel they have things ready enough.

Regarding Java 6, there is nothing in the language that requires a baseline for a 64 bit processor architecture only.

This is a strategic maneuver to minimize engineering resources on Java within Apple.

I'd have no problem with this if Apple would re-release WebObjects 5.4 as WebObjects 6.0 for Cocoa only. That would justify this transition.

Since they have made no effort to go in this direction they would rather kill off the AppServer market options for them and focus on every moron and their incessant need to have the latest portable audio/video toy.

richard.mac
Dec 18, 2007, 08:49 PM
well done apple! i wasnt expecting 10.5.2 until janurary sometime.

edit:sorry i thought they released it? missed the vital word there.

mixel
Dec 18, 2007, 09:00 PM
Apart from some teething issues (kernel panics in .0, occasional (one every couple of weeks?) UI hangs now).. I've not had any issues with Mail or Safari, photoshop, any of the Apple 1st party apps, they've been going like troopers, and Mail has a lot of Mail in it. :D (10k msgs, 4 mailboxes)

Makes me happy when stuff "just works" .. Makes it weird that so many others' installs just haven't worked so well. When .1 came out i started recommending to all my Mac using (non techy) friends they start upgrading to Leopard.. But if serious issues still need ironing out, it's hard to know who they're going to affect.

All in all though, 5.2 is great news! looking forward to it.

Also, great news about Java! The Mrs does Java so she'll be happy to hear that. :D

AidenShaw
Dec 18, 2007, 09:06 PM
if that's the case and apple is allready rejecting it's 32 bit user base... I dunno what to say.

Start saving your euros for a 64-bit machine, it's only a matter of time before 32-bit is on the dust heap.

(Same advice applies to Windows users, by the way....)

nsbio
Dec 18, 2007, 09:09 PM
Hopefully they will fix the buggy Mail. The spotlight refuses to search inside any new messages until the index is force-renewed.

At the same time, Safari has not crashed once on me.

ckurowic
Dec 18, 2007, 09:11 PM
Apple: please fix Mail.app. It's pretty buggy in Leopard.

I have not found any issues on my G5. Its interesting though. I certainly believe you, of course! However, there seems to be distinct issues with PPC versus Intel Macs. Both have their share of bugs! Could we compile a list of comparisons?

Absolute ********!

Java 6 is available only for Leopard?

This completely eliminates any interest in doing Java on Apple for me. I'll focus on Java for Linux only.

Uh, Sorry dude, this IS an Apple forum.....

64-bit capable processor a requirement for Java?

Well, there goes Java for the CoreDuos and G4's. Goodbye iMac and Mac Mini CoreDuos (and of course the MacBook and MacBook Pros). Now you'll need a Core2Duo or better.

Man, that was short. Who'd have thought it would be Java that would kill-off the 32-BIT systems?

So what. 32 bit has been obsolete for years! My G5 is from 2003! Save some cash, go get a G5 or a new Core 2 Duo.

I installed clean but brought in my mail from my OSX 10.4 tiger install. I have over 4gb of mail doing my personal and business mail. Mail.app has worked great for me.

4GB??? You must feel REAL important.....

bearda
Dec 18, 2007, 09:18 PM
I've given up on using Mail.app on Leopard (Gmail's web interface works fine for now) and Safari 3 (Firefox works fine), but the WiFi issues are still driving me nuts. Half the time I go into my office to use my desktop it's dropped my wireless connection and I have to reselect my network. iChat hasn't seen a lot of use lately since I can't get it to stay connected while I'm away.

Leopard isn't bad, and it's got a lot of little nice tweaks to Tiger, but I'm really regretting upgrading my G4 Mac Mini. It may be faster, but a system that tells me I'm not connected to the internet twice as fast is still pretty useless.

AidenShaw
Dec 18, 2007, 09:22 PM
My G5 is from 2003!

Yes, but Apple has had no real 64-bit support until 10.5, and even then it has some significant restrictions.

riversky
Dec 18, 2007, 09:37 PM
Two bugs stand out to me.....

1. Major one is Wifi drops in and out often for no reason. Really frustrating! When I look at the meter it says "scanning..."

2. This is small but I don't get the sound when I receive new mail. I get the indicator but no sound. Have no idea why. Perhaps I am the only one.

I like Leopard very much but small bugs sometime get irritating more than anything but the Wifi issue is serious.

shadowfax
Dec 18, 2007, 09:38 PM
Uh, Sorry dude, this IS an Apple forum.....

And apple deserve a slap in the face for the completely, utterly, in-every-way craptastic job they have done of supporting the modern java VM. They are CONSTANTLY incredibly late at providing support for the latest releases. I believe that the final version of Java 6 has been around for over a year now. And they are still hacking out developer previews, not to mention they don't have it working on the processors of 90% of the macs out there.

Complete crap. I would strongly recommend against doing Java for OS X, and I have to for work.

flyinmac
Dec 18, 2007, 09:40 PM
So what. 32 bit has been obsolete for years! My G5 is from 2003! Save some cash, go get a G5 or a new Core 2 Duo.

Not an issue for me (check my signature). But, I was simply commenting on the fact that it kind of sucks that you either need an older computer (G5) or a much newer machine (Core2Duo or better).

I never liked the fact that Apple stepped down to 32-BIT processors when they switched to Intel.

Seems pretty lame for them to succeed a 64-BIT machine with a 32-BIT machine. Then, to take so long switching the entire line over to 64-BIT processors again. Then, release an update that requires 64-BIT processors.

Considering that the Mac Mini was still 32-BIT's until August of 2007 (just a short 4 months ago), it seems a bit early for them to say "Tough Luck guys".

Not that I have to worry about it myself. I just think they should go more than 4 months before issuing an update that requires replacing an entire (4 month old) computer to use it.

jmpmntwnty3
Dec 18, 2007, 09:49 PM
As long as they fix those annoying sleep from wake issues and the wifi problems I'm good! It's hella annoying to try to type something and notice that your keyboard isn't working. I have to reboot everytime. And when I open my Macbook Pro after more than 6 hours I have to reboot because the trackpad doesn't respond. Oh, and we can't forget about how the screen doesn't turn back on after you wake it from sleep. But other than that, and the fact that wifi drops more than it should my macbook is perfect!!

I should've stuck with Tiger...

Stella
Dec 18, 2007, 10:06 PM
Apple promised OSX would be the best Java development platform. At the moment it isn't, that honour belongs to Linux. Hopefully, things will change with Java 6.

Hopefully Java 6 will fix the long, ongoing AWT-SWT bug that plagues OSX.

gifford
Dec 18, 2007, 10:08 PM
What is it with apple and crappy wifi connections, and sleep/wake problems?
It's seems an ongoing problem.
I was having wakeup problems on my Pismo G3 and my Pismo G4 and now my Macbook (although largely sorted since the last tiger update).

I'm not making the leap to Tiger for quite a while if I can help it.

Hmmm saying that, whatever new developer tools they bring out in feb will probably sway me.

DiamondMac
Dec 18, 2007, 10:17 PM
Safari crashes have got to stop. I know it just isn't with mine as some others here have had that problem AND countless others I know in real life that use Leopard on their Desktops, MBP's, iMacs, etc....I am hoping this newest update stops a majority of them

Someone mentioned the Mail.app problem....AMEN

Outside of those two problems, I am satisfied with Leopard but I hope the next few months have a good bit of bugs fixed

HLdan
Dec 18, 2007, 10:21 PM
Two bugs stand out to me.....

1. Major one is Wifi drops in and out often for no reason. Really frustrating! When I look at the meter it says "scanning..."

2. This is small but I don't get the sound when I receive new mail. I get the indicator but no sound. Have no idea why. Perhaps I am the only one.

I like Leopard very much but small bugs sometime get irritating more than anything but the Wifi issue is serious.


Have you checked Mail Preferences-General and see if the sound for new mail has a sound selected? It may be set to none.

sord
Dec 18, 2007, 10:27 PM
Yes, its here:)

EDIT: Link removed, apparently I'm not allowed to share already-perfected internal builds from Apple
Yea, I have the "already-perfected external build" :cool: (no problems as of yet, if I completely forget about Java)

And no Java for PPC? :confused: What crap! :mad:

quovadis
Dec 18, 2007, 10:29 PM
I've been using Leopard since Oct. and the only problem I've experienced are the memory leaks with Safari. Since I switched to the Webkit nighlty builds, no more memory leak problems ...

Everything else - Mail, iPhoto, Sleep/Wake, etc has worked perfectly

Java 6 support ? That would be a nice update

Booga
Dec 18, 2007, 10:41 PM
Well, this Java pre-release should silence all those folks who were trying to defend Apple, claiming Java 6 would be "just around the corner". From the release, it's pretty obvious that we're a long way from a stable Java 6 on MacOS that runs on all the machines Leopard runs on.

If you're a Java developer, time to go visit www.dell.com...

mdriftmeyer
Dec 18, 2007, 10:49 PM
Uh, Sorry dude, this IS an Apple forum.....

Grow up. I was working at NeXT before this Java thing took hold. The fact it's here doesn't change the fact that AppServer work is predominantly Java based.

Well, this Java pre-release should silence all those folks who were trying to defend Apple, claiming Java 6 would be "just around the corner". From the release, it's pretty obvious that we're a long way from a stable Java 6 on MacOS that runs on all the machines Leopard runs on.

If you're a Java developer, time to go visit www.dell.com...

You don't get it. There was a Java 6 build before Leopard was out in development. Then they pulled it. This is a change and I respect them making the change, but they should have supplanted it with WebObjects 6 and ObjC/Cocoa.

Give me back the tool that made Web Development enjoyable. Moving it to another RAD environment gives me no need to develop Java on OS X. Obviously this doesn't affect my interest in Cocoa Client Apps.

Booga
Dec 18, 2007, 11:10 PM
You don't get it. There was a Java 6 build before Leopard was out in development. Then they pulled it. This is a change and I respect them making the change, but they should have supplanted it with WebObjects 6 and ObjC/Cocoa.

Give me back the tool that made Web Development enjoyable. Moving it to another RAD environment gives me no need to develop Java on OS X. Obviously this doesn't affect my interest in Cocoa Client Apps.

I "get it". I'm a Java developer who can no longer work on a Mac. And yes, I had the 10.4 pre-release of Java 6. It sucked too, and they don't appear to have made a huge amount of progress in the last year.

So I can't develop Java on the Mac, and then when I do "fun" projects on the Mac, I have to use the awful XCode environment. Apple is about 10 years behind the state-of-the-art in software development and not regaining ground. They either need to pour a LOT of investment into it to start catching up or adopt someone else's environment/language/toolkit soon. (I'm sure all the former NeXT employees will take offense at this last paragraph, and any old Mac developers who haven't already jumped ship to Windows or Java will probably nod.) XCode, Objective-C and Interface Builder were state-of-the-art in 1989 but haven't really gotten beyond 1999 yet while the rest of the industry whizzed past.

ckurowic
Dec 18, 2007, 11:27 PM
And apple deserve a slap in the face for the completely, utterly, in-every-way craptastic job they have done of supporting the modern java VM. They are CONSTANTLY incredibly late at providing support for the latest releases. I believe that the final version of Java 6 has been around for over a year now. And they are still hacking out developer previews, not to mention they don't have it working on the processors of 90% of the macs out there.

Complete crap. I would strongly recommend against doing Java for OS X, and I have to for work.

Show me statistics that 90% of Macs are PowerPC's. Until then, whatever.

Then go slap "Apple" in the face. See if they care.

gifford
Dec 18, 2007, 11:31 PM
I "get it". I'm a Java developer who can no longer work on a Mac. And yes, I had the 10.4 pre-release of Java 6. It sucked too, and they don't appear to have made a huge amount of progress in the last year.

So I can't develop Java on the Mac, and then when I do "fun" projects on the Mac, I have to use the awful XCode environment. Apple is about 10 years behind the state-of-the-art in software development and not regaining ground. They either need to pour a LOT of investment into it to start catching up or adopt someone else's environment/language/toolkit soon. (I'm sure all the former NeXT employees will take offense at this last paragraph, and any old Mac developers who haven't already jumped ship to Windows or Java will probably nod.) XCode, Objective-C and Interface Builder were state-of-the-art in 1989 but haven't really gotten beyond 1999 yet while the rest of the industry whizzed past.

I personally find objective c, cocoa, interface builder, xcode a dream to use. Certain areas such as core audio could do with a layer of abstraction to save time IMO but im generally happy.
In particular I find Cocoa the most wonderfully thought out framework I have ever used. And the beauty of Objective C is its simplicity, to ad features to the language would destroy what makes it so special.
Admittedly I have not programed on the PC for 10 years, but from a distance it still looks like a writhing mess of proprietary muck and half arsed 'standards'.

What features do you believe the 'competition' have whizzed past on?

martinlev
Dec 18, 2007, 11:39 PM
This is small but I don't get the sound when I receive new mail. I get the indicator but no sound. Have no idea why. Perhaps I am the only one.

I have the same problem. More discussion here:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1199018&tstart=75

SiliconAddict
Dec 18, 2007, 11:52 PM
Yah Leopard needs more fixes. I've become INTIMATELY familiar with the top and kill commands. Enough that they are on screen 4 at all times. That being said I've frozen Leopard at least 4 times since install. 2 of which pertain to going from wireless to Ethernet. Basicly. Bring the system back from sleep, turn off WIFI, plug in Ethernet, change the location setting to wired and BAM....total freeze. So now I change the setting after I disable wireless but before plugging it in.
Then there is the weird shutdown behavior, as in it doesn't want to. Just sits at the blue screen (BSoD?) and that is all. Then there is the outright weird behavior with WIFI. I swear to god that WIFI speed will be fine one minute, crappy the next (With the router in the same room and SOLID sig streignth.) and the only wait to get it back again is to disable and re enable WIFI.
Nothing is a deal killer but I swear to god its getting really annoying having to tippy toe around Leopard. :( Not good. Not good. Vista is buggy...no doubt about it and they came out first. I wonder who copied who... :(

flyinmac
Dec 19, 2007, 12:07 AM
Grow up? I don't honestly care where you worked, old man.


And what the hell do you mean grow up? I simply stated a FACT. This is an APPLE forum. Go spread your Linux humping ways to forums that care. Linux will never take off. You all are too disorganized to do anything anyway.


I'm not a Linux user. But, I found your comment curious. So, I went to check the current web statistics based on browser activity.

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

Interestingly, Linux seems to nearly parallel Mac OS in terms of usage. Not exactly even, but the trend seems to be that Linux increases as Mac OS usage increases. And, their numbers are very close.

So, I guess if Linux isn't catching on, then neither is the Mac OS.

SiliconAddict
Dec 19, 2007, 12:09 AM
Wow there is a lot of fanboi funk in this thread....strong enough that I can smell it over the net. :(

flyinmac
Dec 19, 2007, 12:15 AM
Wow there is a lot of fanboi funk in this thread....strong enough that I can smell it over the net. :(

Nope, that's just you :o

Might be time for a shower :confused:
:D

robjrussell
Dec 19, 2007, 12:40 AM
I'm not a Linux user. But, I found your comment curious. So, I went to check the current web statistics based on browser activity.

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

Interestingly, Linux seems to nearly parallel Mac OS in terms of usage. Not exactly even, but the trend seems to be that Linux increases as Mac OS usage increases. And, their numbers are very close.

So, I guess if Linux isn't catching on, then neither is the Mac OS.

ouch.
solid evidence will get ya every time..

totally_fly
Dec 19, 2007, 12:45 AM
I noticed that in Safari on Tiger (and probably also in Leopard) that Java applet windows now have a little warning graphic in the top right corner indicating that the window is an applet and not a normal website window.

Note sure I really care for this little change (I preferred it the way it was), but perhaps others feel differently.

flyinmac
Dec 19, 2007, 12:50 AM
ouch.
solid evidence will get ya every time..

Yep, don't you just hate that :D

adrianm
Dec 19, 2007, 12:55 AM
Absolute ********!

Java 6 is available only for Leopard?

This completely eliminates any interest in doing Java on Apple for me. I'll focus on Java for Linux only.

Well, if you you're going to base your work decisions on the opinions and interpretations of a bunch of 12-year-olds on a macrumors forum, then the Mac Java dev community is probably better off without you :)

Peace
Dec 19, 2007, 01:13 AM
ouch.
solid evidence will get ya every time..

Yep, don't you just hate that :D

In all actuality both Linux and OS 10 are piddly compared to Windows market share so it's really a small point to make.But since it was made here's the actual market share :

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=8&qpmr=100&qpdt=1&qpct=3&qptimeframe=M&qpsp=107&qpnp=1

Kelmon
Dec 19, 2007, 01:37 AM
I have but one request from Apple at the moment and that's to fix Spaces. The idea is great but the implementation is absolutely maddening at times (read: almost all the time). Here's what they need to do to make the damned thing work as expected:


If I switch to an application that has windows open in my current Space, always switch to those windows. Do not switch me to an entirely different Space for no apparent reason.
When I switch to a Document-based application in a Space, activate an actual Document rather than a window that represents a toolbox or something like it. Specifically, activate the last Document that I was working on in the application.
Do not switch me to another Space unless I request it explicitly by either changing to another Space via the interface or selecting an application that is not currently running in my Space. Do not suddenly switch me because another application in another Space has opened a dialog or some other alert.


This is common sense stuff that does actually worry me. I'm sure that this all makes sense and that it doesn't do this out of the box tends to suggest that maybe Spaces will never work as it should because of a technical limitation. Still, finger's crossed...

Avicdar
Dec 19, 2007, 01:57 AM
Are we likely to see support for currently unsupported cameras in this release, or is this strictly bug fixes?

Still waiting for support for my A700.

emotion
Dec 19, 2007, 01:58 AM
I'm not a Linux user. But, I found your comment curious. So, I went to check the current web statistics based on browser activity.

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

Interestingly, Linux seems to nearly parallel Mac OS in terms of usage. Not exactly even, but the trend seems to be that Linux increases as Mac OS usage increases. And, their numbers are very close.

So, I guess if Linux isn't catching on, then neither is the Mac OS.

You need to see the 'real' stats (that's just for the w3schools website):

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=10

Linux has a lot less usage on here.

edit: I see someone else has posted these stats.

Mr.damien
Dec 19, 2007, 01:59 AM
And safari, Wifi reliability, Macbook Pro wake from sleep and Quicktime! Leopard is quite the roachfest at the moment IMHO!
I have no problem with Safari, Wifi or quicktime. I must have a different release of Leopard ... :rolleyes:

Jim Campbell
Dec 19, 2007, 02:02 AM
What is it with apple and crappy wifi connections, and sleep/wake problems?
It's seems an ongoing problem.

Tell me about it. Bought myself a lovely MacBook in May, running 10.4.8 ... all lovely.

Updated to 10.4.9 and my wifi internet connection stopped working - transfer speeds dropped to about 2k per second when it worked at all. Tried the Airport patch that fixed this issue for some people. Nothing. Rolled back to 10.4.8 and all was well.

Then Apple announced that they were making changes to .Mac and you'd need to run 10.4.9 or better in order to sync properly. This wasn't an option, so I waited, with a crippled .Mac account, for 10.4.10 and dutifully updated.

Guess what?

Wifi internet FUBARed again, so I had to roll back to 10.4.8 ... which means that I am currently paying for a .Mac account that I cannot use with my portable machine, due to a known issue with Apple's own operating system.

Thanks, guys. After fifteen years of dedicated Mac use, thousands of pounds of my money, it's embarrassing to be stuck in this situation having recommended my Mac experience to so many people.

Bah.

Jim

macinfojunkie
Dec 19, 2007, 02:48 AM
Great to see Apple striving ahead to fix the myriad bugs in Leopard. Having the 2nd major service release already for developer testing is pretty good going at this point.

I said My Leopard, meaning that I'm not personally desperate for 10.5.2, I'm by no means suggesting that there are no bugs at all...

I'm sure we'll all sleep better for knowing that nugget :cool:

thefunkymunky
Dec 19, 2007, 02:52 AM
Tonight's release provides an implementation of Sun's Java SE 6 for Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) and includes Java SE 6 version 1.6.0_01. This latest seed requires a 64-bit capable Intel-powered Mac and is described as having received only limited testing thus far.

Does that mean that this new version of Java won't work on my Mac. :( WTF???

b0ned0me
Dec 19, 2007, 03:30 AM
Grow up? I don't honestly care where you worked, old man.


And what the hell do you mean grow up? I simply stated a FACT. This is an APPLE forum. Go spread your Linux humping ways to forums that care. Linux will never take off. You all are too disorganized to do anything anyway.
If I remember my geek prehistory, him having been at NeXT raises the intriguing possibility that he may have also 'humped' bits of MacOSX before it was even MacOS. Better boil your hard drive in bleach just in case.

emotion
Dec 19, 2007, 03:31 AM
Does that mean that this new version of Java won't work on my Mac. :( WTF???


I do not understand all this whining about 64 bit support.

There is NO WAY Apple will drop 32 bit support when they release their Java 6 implementation.

They've just prioritised that build for development that's all.

You can all relax.

Sometimes I dispair of all the moaning that goes on here.

thefunkymunky
Dec 19, 2007, 03:56 AM
I do not understand all this whining about 64 bit support.

There is NO WAY Apple will drop 32 bit support when they release their Java 6 implementation.

They've just prioritised that build for development that's all.

You can all relax.

Sometimes I dispair of all the moaning that goes on here.

Errm. I'm not moaning. I'm concerned. It says in the article that this release only works on 64-bit machines.

garethlewis2
Dec 19, 2007, 04:08 AM
I can see a very simple reason for only releasing a 64bit version of Java for Leopard. Servers. Simple. J2EE and other services.

Jobs hates Java for clients. He openly hates it. But Servers are another matter.

Alfred.Woodden
Dec 19, 2007, 04:15 AM
Do you think they will address the issues concerning the jerky and slow GUI-animations?

I mean, Dashboard, Expose, Spaces, Dock, Minimize + Maximize among other animations are at all not adequate, and Í'm running a 3 week old MBP.

Topic : Not Smooth, Jerky & Slow. (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=6083750)
Minimize effect really slow - not smooth (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1206063)
Leopard not as smooth on native resolution? MBP! Help! (http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=185380)

nikiski
Dec 19, 2007, 04:24 AM
I'm finding it rather funny that everyone replying to this thread bashing about Java being 64-bit only. This is a developer seed. Why is everyone (no, not everyone, but you know, might as well) basing their opinion on pre-released software? May be Apple think this build is not stable enough for other architecture? May be they aren't ready? May be they want to test 64-bit performance gains? Who knows.

Although I don't speak for Apple, but I doubt Java SE 6 will be 64-bit only. ;)

EDIT: I see "emotion" posted something similar... I'm a slow poster. =P

whitehexagon
Dec 19, 2007, 04:27 AM
bah, this Java 6 news seems like another attempt to get everyone to switch to Leopard. When are Apple going to realise there are a lot of Java developers using OSX these days, and we are all crying out for 1.6 support, and not everyone wants to sacrifice their stable Tiger development environments for some new eye candy.

I'm doing my best to develop a small game thats cross platform supported, but having a dependence on Java6 is gonna affect a significant portion of the mac audience.

Hopefully the open source Java movement will eliminate the dependence on Apple soon. I found this the other day which looks quite promising alternative.

http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte/

Although for me the ideal solution would be for Sun to take control of the OSX JVM.

princigalli
Dec 19, 2007, 04:59 AM
but nothing is done to make the system more responsive. Windows people sitting on my computers are often amazed at how often they have to wait for things to happen.

hogmog
Dec 19, 2007, 05:00 AM
Hopefully the "printing issues" covers fixing the breakdown in printing from Word, Excel and PowerPoint in MS Office 2004. The more I read about this problem the more it seemed to be an O/S problem rather than an application problem. I'm no expert though so with any luck Apple and MS are working together to fix it asap.

Eraserhead
Dec 19, 2007, 05:33 AM
but nothing is done to make the system more responsive. Windows people sitting on my computers are often amazed at how often they have to wait for things to happen.

Aside from at startup I never have slowdowns on my MB Core Duo with 2GB RAM, so maybe its time for a RAM upgrade? 1GB is really the minimum.

Blacky
Dec 19, 2007, 05:40 AM
Do you think they will address the issues concerning the jerky and slow GUI-animations?

I mean, Dashboard, Expose, Spaces, Dock, Minimize + Maximize among other animations are at all not adequate, and Í'm running a 3 week old MBP.

Topic : Not Smooth, Jerky & Slow. (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=6083750)
Minimize effect really slow - not smooth (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1206063)
Leopard not as smooth on native resolution? MBP! Help! (http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=185380)

I have the same issue, apple just basically ignores you after buying a 2400€ laptop, at least they fixed the keyboard error, I had people using 599€ laptop laughing at me at times when my keyboard froze ...

it's terrible, I'm a java developer myself and leopard has caused so much problems, keyboard, jerkyness, no java 6, buggy java 5 on leopard (weird stacktraces & shutdowns of java apps) ... people around me are making fun of the situation, and I can't blame them because they are right.

I'm considering going to linux using compiz for the eye candy and then just have all the stability I need.

Eraserhead
Dec 19, 2007, 05:41 AM
I have the same issue, apple just basically ignores you after buying a 2400€ laptop,

Did you do an archive and install or erase and install when updating to Leopard? If you did an "Upgrade" reinstall it with an Archive and Install and most of your problems should go away, that applies to everyone posting in this thread about Leopard problems.

emotion
Dec 19, 2007, 05:51 AM
Errm. I'm not moaning. I'm concerned. It says in the article that this release only works on 64-bit machines.

*slaps head*

This is not a release of Java. As has been pointed out many times this is just going out as a seed.

Alfred.Woodden
Dec 19, 2007, 05:55 AM
Blacky, the horrendous GUI-performance has killed the whole smooth and snappy GUI-experience I was left with after using Tiger for months.

Apple seriously needs to fix this in 10.5.2.

I read somewhere in my links that Macs with intel onboard graphic card's not experiencing these slow jerky non-smooth animations like users with high-end graphic cards do.

So MacBooks and Mac Mini's seem to not be affected.

And yes, I performed an "Erase & Install" on my MacBook Pro, and I'm still experiencing GUI-animation-issues with my nVidia 8600 128mbram card.

mcnaugha
Dec 19, 2007, 05:55 AM
Looks like 10.5.2 could hold the new world record for the biggest delta update. 355MB. Has any other delta been bigger?

It would be hilarious (but in a very sick way) if Apple limit Java 6 support to Core 2 Duo/Extreme and Xeon. A lot of my customers use a business critical Java product which recently forced them all to Tiger because of Java 5 requirement. I can see them going to Java 6-only. They're covered by AMP... so Leopard isn't necessarily an issue. They do have a lot of pre-64-bit Intel Macs. They're liable to replace them with PCs.

emotion
Dec 19, 2007, 05:59 AM
It would be hilarious (but in a very sick way) if Apple limit Java 6 support to Core 2 Duo/Extreme and Xeon. A lot of my customers use a business critical Java product which recently forced them all to Tiger because of Java 5 requirement. I can see them going to Java 6-only. They're covered by AMP... so Leopard isn't necessarily an issue. They do have a lot of pre-64-bit Intel Macs. They're liable to replace them with PCs.

This is exactly why they won't drop 32 bit support in Java. Regardless of Job's view on Java the rest of the world does use it and Apple would definitely lose a lot of business if they went that way.

bmk
Dec 19, 2007, 06:12 AM
Tell me about it. Bought myself a lovely MacBook in May, running 10.4.8 ... all lovely.

Updated to 10.4.9 and my wifi internet connection stopped working - transfer speeds dropped to about 2k per second when it worked at all. Tried the Airport patch that fixed this issue for some people. Nothing. Rolled back to 10.4.8 and all was well.

Then Apple announced that they were making changes to .Mac and you'd need to run 10.4.9 or better in order to sync properly. This wasn't an option, so I waited, with a crippled .Mac account, for 10.4.10 and dutifully updated.

Guess what?

Wifi internet FUBARed again, so I had to roll back to 10.4.8 ... which means that I am currently paying for a .Mac account that I cannot use with my portable machine, due to a known issue with Apple's own operating system.

Thanks, guys. After fifteen years of dedicated Mac use, thousands of pounds of my money, it's embarrassing to be stuck in this situation having recommended my Mac experience to so many people.

Bah.

Jim

If you bought your machine in May it is still in warranty. If you wi-fi doesn't work, then it will be fixed by Apple free of charge. End of story. Why are you complaining here? Of course what you probably mean is not that your wi-fi doesn't work at all, but that you are having problems with your own wi-fi connection at home. If your wi-fi connection doesn't work at home and it works everywhere else, go figure. Is it really likely that Apple put a bug in the software so that your wi-fi specifically wouldn't work in your own home?
I've always found the people at the Apple Genius bars very helpful, if you r problem is replicateable, they will fix it.

Eraserhead
Dec 19, 2007, 06:23 AM
If your wi-fi connection doesn't work at home and it works everywhere else, go figure. Is it really likely that Apple put a bug in the software so that your wi-fi specifically wouldn't work in your own home?

Its far more likely, almost practically certain, that your $50 home router is at fault, and that you need a replacement ;).

macinfojunkie
Dec 19, 2007, 06:25 AM
If you .... replicateable, they will fix it.

What does replicateable mean?

phillipjfry
Dec 19, 2007, 06:25 AM
please fix some of the flakyness in the Finder windows drag and drop for 10.5.2

plzkthx :)

Eraserhead
Dec 19, 2007, 06:30 AM
And yes, I performed an "Erase & Install" on my MacBook Pro, and I'm still experiencing GUI-animation-issues with my nVidia 8600 128mbram card.

For future reference Archive and Install is really just as good on a Mac. The Advantage of Archive/Erase and Install is that it rewrites the whole system so if you made any modifications (e.g. by installing Uno), to the base system those changes will be overwritten and won't cause problems.

I think the GUI-animation-issues with the Santa Rosa MBP are caused by crappy drivers for the graphics card rather than a Leopard issue, regardless you should contact Apple so they know its an issue.

To show how slow bug reports to Apple can be. According to the duplicate bug report ID the fact that Stacks have less functionality than folders under Tiger was originally reported to Apple around the end of November.

What does replicateable mean?

That the problem can be replicated.

cogsinister
Dec 19, 2007, 06:36 AM
Well, you better call up Apple and tell them not to bother with 10.5.2 then. Silly Apple, thinking they've found and fixed bugs when you know there's no bugs at all. :)

My install of Leopard has allways worked fine........

cecemf
Dec 19, 2007, 06:37 AM
I said My Leopard, meaning that I'm not personally desperate for 10.5.2, I'm by no means suggesting that there are no bugs at all...

My only problem with Leopard is the Screen Sharing over iChat who doesn't work and iChat crashing all the time !

Apart from that no problem at all so far and love Leopard !!!

PS: No problems at all with wifi !!!!

bmk
Dec 19, 2007, 06:55 AM
What does replicateable mean?

What do you think it means? Why are you being so picky? Replicateable is fairly commonly used to mean something which can be replicated. OK so the correct word is 'replicable' but who uses that these days? If you can replicate a problem - if it is replicateable - it makes it a hell of a lot easy for someone else to work out what's wrong.

SolRayz
Dec 19, 2007, 07:00 AM
I don't understand why so many people are having so many issues with leapard. Maybe its because I've suffered through various xp machines for so long? I have had very few issues since the leopard upgrade. And my AEBS issues under Tiger are now a thing of the past.

macinfojunkie
Dec 19, 2007, 07:07 AM
What do you think it means? Why are you being so picky? Replicateable is fairly commonly used to mean something which can be replicated. OK so the correct word is 'replicable' but who uses that these days? If you can replicate a problem - if it is replicateable - it makes it a hell of a lot easy for someone else to work out what's wrong.

Sorry English is my 2nd language so I was unable to find the word in my dictionary.

MrCrowbar
Dec 19, 2007, 07:20 AM
Do you think they will address the issues concerning the jerky and slow GUI-animations?

I mean, Dashboard, Expose, Spaces, Dock, Minimize + Maximize among other animations are at all not adequate, and Í'm running a 3 week old MBP.

Topic : Not Smooth, Jerky & Slow. (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=6083750)
Minimize effect really slow - not smooth (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1206063)
Leopard not as smooth on native resolution? MBP! Help! (http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=185380)

I have those problems on my Gen 1 2 GHz CD Macbook with 2 GB RAM. Big apps are faster in Leopard, but responsiveness of the user interface is pretty bad in Leopard. I disabled dock scaling because it looks terrible in Leopard, the icons just don't scale smoothly. :-(

i.maverick
Dec 19, 2007, 07:24 AM
Apple: please fix Mail.app. It's pretty buggy in Leopard.

mail.app is my only pet peeve for leopard
notes can't be deleted..they just come back to haunt me!!
new message windows hang up..they don't send and they don't go away and i need to force quit the app!!
o.w leopards been a deam...quicklook.W.O.W!!

JSchwage
Dec 19, 2007, 07:26 AM
Here's to hoping this one will fix the wireless problems. My dad is getting quite frustrated with his MacBook Pro (his first Mac) because his wireless keeps on having troubles.

iBunny
Dec 19, 2007, 07:29 AM
I have no other issues except the Jerky/Slow Animations.

I just think we need new/better video card drivers

Amuraivel
Dec 19, 2007, 07:49 AM
In particular I find Cocoa the most wonderfully thought out framework I have ever used. And the beauty of Objective C is its simplicity, to ad features to the language would destroy what makes it so special.

Java 6 missing.

I am still angry that the Java version of Cocoa environment was deprecated...I actually had a shot at programming using my java skills, now the whole thing is just a put off. Moreover, doesn't the new objC support garbage collection like Java now?

spookje
Dec 19, 2007, 07:55 AM
Yes, let's hope it comes before New Year. They should fix all the issues with Leopard from Bluetooth and Wireless reliability, instability of Quicktime, Mail, Safari and Spaces (stops working out-of-nothing).

Feverish Flux
Dec 19, 2007, 07:55 AM
Not sure if I will wait for this or not.

Have a new HDD coming from MacSales and I'm pretty sure I'm going to go back to Tiger. And I've never downgraded an OS before, which is pretty telling.

Mail quits frequently.
No sleep with externals attached.
Apps are slow to launch.
Leopard takes at least twice as long to boot.
Google Earth is basically unusable.
Still waiting for SuperDuper.

It just doesn't feel as quick as Tiger. Of course I have no concrete evidence of it, but it just feels sluggish.

Don't remember Tiger being this buggy, but maybe it was. My fault for buying and installing a .0 release, though.

kerryn
Dec 19, 2007, 07:57 AM
I find it funny that people describe Leopard as a "Roachfest". Having just come over to Leopard from Windows a few weeks back I find it quite wonderful compared to windows. Perfect no, but not quite the roachfest that people describe here.

Its telling how much the Windows crapfest has lowered my expectations for an OS. I do not experience any wifi problems nor Safari instability (probably because I use Firefox) and my one BIG problem is the keyboard issue with the Macbook (that apparently is fixed today via another software update).

All in all I am quite happy, still I can't wait for 10.5.2 to see how much it improves!

kornyboy
Dec 19, 2007, 08:09 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/3B48b Safari/419.3)

So does this mean java 6 will be 64bit only :\


if that's the case and apple is allready rejecting it's 32 bit user base... I dunno what to say.

I see what you are saying. Aren't all Mac notebooks still running on just 32 bit chips? I think that dropping the support for 32 bit chipsets will be a mistake, but if that is the case it may not have been up to Apple.

emotion
Dec 19, 2007, 08:11 AM
I see what you are saying. Aren't all Mac notebooks still running on just 32 bit chips?

All 64 bit now. Have been for well over a year.

Still, 32 bit support isn't going away.

Eraserhead
Dec 19, 2007, 08:13 AM
Java 6 missing.

I am still angry that the Java version of Cocoa environment was deprecated...I actually had a shot at programming using my java skills, now the whole thing is just a put off. Moreover, doesn't the new objC support garbage collection like Java now?

ObjC 2.0 supports Garbage collecting. I think Java was depreciated as no-one was using it, that is clear from Aaron Hiligass's book. The advantage of Java is that its cross platform, but that is removed if you stick a Cocoa UI on it.

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/3B48b Safari/419.3)
I see what you are saying. Aren't all Mac notebooks still running on just 32 bit chips? I think that dropping the support for 32 bit chipsets will be a mistake, but if that is the case it may not have been up to Apple.

No, but this is just a seed, they probably think the 64 bit version is better or that it needs more feedback than the 32 bit version.

robbieduncan
Dec 19, 2007, 08:21 AM
ObjC 2.0 supports Garbage collecting. I think Java was depreciated as no-one was using it, that is clear from Aaron Hiligass's book. The advantage of Java is that its cross platform, but that is removed if you stick a Cocoa UI on it.

Whilst very few people were using it and it stops being cross platform once you used the Cocoa classes the real reason Apple gave for stopping support for the Java bridge AND adding support for Python/Ruby bridges is that Java is fundamentally less dynamically typed than Obj-C, so was a very bad fit. Lots of strange hoops had to be jumped through to move data around and the whole thing was a badly designed kludge. Ruby/Python are much closer to Obj-C in this respect so the bridges are simple and elegant.

Squonk
Dec 19, 2007, 08:24 AM
These issues of GUI performance make me glad that I'm still on Tiger for now. I sure hope that 10.5.2 fixes these in time for my MBP purchase after MWSF.

To those experiencing the GUI performance issues, are you saying it would feel slower than my 1.25GHz G4 with Tiger on it? If so, that would really be, well, crappy.

Maybe I should consider at 2.2/2.4 refurb with the Leopard drop-in CD and just stay on Tiger for a bit longer...

emotion
Dec 19, 2007, 08:34 AM
These issues of GUI performance make me glad that I'm still on Tiger for now. I sure hope that 10.5.2 fixes these in time for my MBP purchase after MWSF.

To those experiencing the GUI performance issues, are you saying it would feel slower than my 1.25GHz G4 with Tiger on it? If so, that would really be, well, crappy.

Maybe I should consider at 2.2/2.4 refurb with the Leopard drop-in CD and just stay on Tiger for a bit longer...

I've seen a few problems with Leopard but not seen the choppy video on this 2.2GHz SR MBP.

Leopard is quicker in some respects when compared to Tiger for this machine (and on my macbook 2GHz C2D too).

My colleague here has a 1.67GHz powerbook running Leopard smoothly enough (he says it feels quicker than Tiger). He does see the Mail.app problems though.

guzhogi
Dec 19, 2007, 08:39 AM
I've been using Leopard for a while now and haven't really experienced any problems on my MBP. Only thing was the keyboard thing where it doesn't take the 1st letter. I did use pre-release versions of Leopard and REALLY buggy.

0racle
Dec 19, 2007, 09:14 AM
Please Steve, can I have some Active Directory fixes?

thats nice
Dec 19, 2007, 09:21 AM
Does anyone know if this release fixes the calendar syncing problems with the iPhone? I buy leopard and a new iPhone and get screwed with no calender syncing...

edit - after playing around with it just now it seems i have got it working. lets hope it doesn't go off on its own little escapade like last time and delete all my calender notes :)

Eraserhead
Dec 19, 2007, 09:36 AM
Lots of strange hoops had to be jumped through to move data around and the whole thing was a badly designed kludge. Ruby/Python are much closer to Obj-C in this respect so the bridges are simple and elegant.

OK That makes sense. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_system) wikipedia article is interesting if you didn't understand this before.

cecemf
Dec 19, 2007, 09:43 AM
Two bugs stand out to me.....

1. Major one is Wifi drops in and out often for no reason. Really frustrating! When I look at the meter it says "scanning..."

2. This is small but I don't get the sound when I receive new mail. I get the indicator but no sound. Have no idea why. Perhaps I am the only one.

I like Leopard very much but small bugs sometime get irritating more than anything but the Wifi issue is serious.


I have the alum. imac Core2Duo and leopard 10.5.1 installed and had no problem with WIFI at all !!! it's there and it's stays connected !!!

But i use to have that problem on tiger and Apple advise me to take Automatic OFF from Location in Wireless preference and to creat a profil for my Wireless box and it worked like a charm !!!! so that might work on Leopard as well !!! :D

bilbo--baggins
Dec 19, 2007, 09:45 AM
I find it funny that people describe Leopard as a "Roachfest". Having just come over to Leopard from Windows a few weeks back I find it quite wonderful compared to windows. Perfect no, but not quite the roachfest that people describe here.

There are far more problems with Leopard than I have experience with previous Mac OS releases. It's a combination of LOTS if minor bugs, plus some stuff thats seriously broken - like AirDisk and iChat completely messed up and unusable for lots of people.

zorinlynx
Dec 19, 2007, 09:47 AM
Mail quits frequently.
No sleep with externals attached.
Apps are slow to launch.
Leopard takes at least twice as long to boot.
Google Earth is basically unusable.
Still waiting for SuperDuper.


It really sounds like you have a borked install. Mail works fine for me, as does Google Earth. Apps launch quickly and sleep works fine when external devices are attached.

Try a fresh install. Upgrade installs can cause probleme sometimes; my upgrade install went well but if your system is wedged in an obscure way under Tiger, it can totally break things when you move to leopard.

morespce54
Dec 19, 2007, 09:48 AM
76 bug fixes?

For Leopard?

At this rate, it may be 10.5.8 before Leopard gets to release quality.

Let's hope Apple has fixed many, many more bugs than 76 and Apple is just no disclosing the full list or full count.

Leopard is a total train wreck on the quality front. Such a shame since it is a great OS otherwise...

I agree. I must had pretty much all 76 bugs...:(
Okay, not really, but even if I like (a lot) Leopard, I can't wait to get to a better/more stable release...

mdriftmeyer
Dec 19, 2007, 09:50 AM
Java 6 missing.

I am still angry that the Java version of Cocoa environment was deprecated...I actually had a shot at programming using my java skills, now the whole thing is just a put off. Moreover, doesn't the new objC support garbage collection like Java now?

Java was never a competitor for client/server apps next to Cocoa/ObjC and it was a bad decision to make an attempt to make it so for so many years.

Now that they've realized it and put some crucial improvements into ObjC 2.0 and Cocoa.

Apple never should have wasted the cycles on the Java/Cocoa Bridge. That has been a sore spot for many of us since the closing days of NeXT and the merger.

However, Apple needs to release a comprehensive strategy/guidance on their goals for Java and how it fits in with their business model(s).

alosii
Dec 19, 2007, 09:52 AM
I'm not having any problems with Mail, Safari or any other Apple made software for that matter... and im using an old Powerbook G4 1.6GHz. The only thing I've noticed is the jerky animations with the dock and exposé/Spaces. How do you ppl keep breaking your Leopard? :confused:

This completely eliminates any interest in doing Java on Apple for me. I'll focus on Java for Linux only.

You do know that Java is supposed to be platform independent right? Besides this is only a Developer Preview, Im sure the 32bit UB will be out soon ;)

mdriftmeyer
Dec 19, 2007, 09:53 AM
Whilst very few people were using it and it stops being cross platform once you used the Cocoa classes the real reason Apple gave for stopping support for the Java bridge AND adding support for Python/Ruby bridges is that Java is fundamentally less dynamically typed than Obj-C, so was a very bad fit. Lots of strange hoops had to be jumped through to move data around and the whole thing was a badly designed kludge. Ruby/Python are much closer to Obj-C in this respect so the bridges are simple and elegant.

Correct. And I'd add I'd much rather see the return of WebObjects ObjC/Cocoa with the addition of Ruby/Python in the mix to make a push into the market NeXT help truly define.

iBunny
Dec 19, 2007, 09:57 AM
Looks like 10.5.2 could hold the new world record for the biggest delta update. 355MB. Has any other delta been bigger?

It would be hilarious (but in a very sick way) if Apple limit Java 6 support to Core 2 Duo/Extreme and Xeon. A lot of my customers use a business critical Java product which recently forced them all to Tiger because of Java 5 requirement. I can see them going to Java 6-only. They're covered by AMP... so Leopard isn't necessarily an issue. They do have a lot of pre-64-bit Intel Macs. They're liable to replace them with PCs.

How do you know that it will be 355MB? Just curious?

If its true, its exciting!

cecemf
Dec 19, 2007, 09:58 AM
So, did anyone installed 10.5.2 ???:D

balwx
Dec 19, 2007, 10:04 AM
mail.app is my only pet peeve for leopard
notes can't be deleted..they just come back to haunt me!!
new message windows hang up..they don't send and they don't go away and i need to force quit the app!!
o.w leopards been a deam...quicklook.W.O.W!!


This is the exact same problem I am having. :(

mdriftmeyer
Dec 19, 2007, 10:09 AM
I'm not having any problems with Mail, Safari or any other Apple made software for that matter... and im using an old Powerbook G4 1.6GHz. The only thing I've noticed is the jerky animations with the dock and exposé/Spaces. How do you ppl keep breaking your Leopard? :confused:



You do know that Java is supposed to be platform independent right? Besides this is only a Developer Preview, Im sure the 32bit UB will be out soon ;)

The point I was addressing is the viability of pre-existing non-64 bit Apple hardware.

Obviously any future systems I buy will be 64 bit only.

For now, I've already got 64 bit Linux hardware. I'm currently on 32 bit hardware awaiting the next Mac Pro lineup.

I don't see any advantage of Java on OS X from the Server perspective.

I don't plan on dealing with any Client app work for Java in OS X--this is where Cocoa should be the focus and where I'll put my efforts on the matter.

Apple should make an actual strategy on what they will focus on with regards to Java against other language tools and technologies.

To make a simple and clear declaration that Apple will focus solely on Java for the AppServer or just another option would clear up a lot of confusion.

Apple should not focus on Java for the client. Let Sun focus on that since it's their platform for client/server development.

I was quite disappointed for several years where we saw an attempt to appease all camps from Java to Carbon to Cocoa.

Cocoa should have always been first from day one.
Carbon should have been the transition strategy as it was stated back in 1997 and not this abysmal 10 year delay to Cocoa full-steam ahead.

How the hell Java ever became on equal footing with ObjC was an attempt to make Apple the first to "embrace" Java integrated into their OS. Big deal. That should have been Sun's duty with Solaris.

If I were chief of the Enterprise Group that was once NeXT and then for a while AES at Apple it would be clear:

WebObjects 6 (Pure Cocoa/ObjC 2.0/Python/Ruby/AppleScript)
Java 6 (Legacy for WebObjects 5.4.x, but included in OS X Client/Server at a platform agnostic point of view. Make it current with the OpenJDK and move forward with it in-line with the rest of the Industry)

If Apple isn't going to make WOF a major player in the Java World they should reign it back in to the Cocoa world and use it to extend in-roads into other markets where a Distributed Objects/Client-Server/WOF 6 ObjC 2.0/Heterogeneous mixed set database backend clients can be better served.

Make WebKit a crucial part of the strategy for the Enterprise and extend it to add value to their consulting services teams.

If you're not going to be a Hardware/Software solution provider for more than the creative fields and general consumer don't waste your stock investors time and money on put resources partially into it.

Tsurisuto
Dec 19, 2007, 10:13 AM
I am currently running Leopard (64bit) on an iMac G5 (also 64bit) so why don't I get some of this Java loving? :confused:

Peace
Dec 19, 2007, 10:37 AM
For future reference Archive and Install is really just as good on a Mac. The Advantage of Archive/Erase and Install is that it rewrites the whole system so if you made any modifications (e.g. by installing Uno), to the base system those changes will be overwritten and won't cause problems.

I think the GUI-animation-issues with the Santa Rosa MBP are caused by crappy drivers for the graphics card rather than a Leopard issue, regardless you should contact Apple so they know its an issue.

To show how slow bug reports to Apple can be. According to the duplicate bug report ID the fact that Stacks have less functionality than folders under Tiger was originally reported to Apple around the end of November


That the problem can be replicated.


Those "problems" have been fixed. And just a FYI. For a "bug" to be classified a "bug" it has to be "reproducible" at least 3 times on the same hardware with the same set-up.

Some of you people may have issues but they arn't bugs.So please stop calling them that. Some of the problems people have here are caused by the old adage garbage in , garbage out. Or better known as user error.

64 bit Unix certification comes with certain requirements. There will be a 64-bit PPC version coming so I wouldn't freak out over it.

kingtj
Dec 19, 2007, 10:38 AM
I upgraded 2 of my 3 Macs to Leopard, but left one on Tiger. I have to agree with you. Right now, it's the Tiger box that feels more "stable and compatible" with everything. Leopard has more "flash" to it and a few nice functional improvements (no hangs when the Finder loses a network connection, for example!). But at the same time, many of my music-related apps aren't compatible with Leopard yet, and/or I have to spend $'s to upgrade to get them there. My VPN Tracker app requires a $60 update for the same reason.

Simple things like copying files to an NFS share on my Linux server worked just fine in Tiger, but are "wacky" in Leopard. (I get weird problems like "no permission" errors trying to copy them if I copy them from anyplace other than the OS X boot drive, using the Finder. Sometimes a file even copies 70% or so of the way and then reports I don't have permission to copy it!)

Leopard just needs a few more revisions to iron out bugs.... I feel like currently, it's just fine for the "typical user" who just surfs the net, uses the typical home/small business user type apps, and so forth. If your needs are more specialized or advanced though, Leopard will be a bit of a thorn in your side right now. At the very least, it's an upgrade that costs much more than the price of the product. IMHO, far too many shareware apps are charging for Leopard-compatible versions when that SHOULD be a free or VERY cheap upgrade.


I must say that I feel pretty secure on Tiger right now, which seems to be comparatively rock solid. Obviously, it doesn't have the same features, but it's not like using Windows 3.1 or some such thing.

timothyjay2004
Dec 19, 2007, 10:42 AM
Looks like 10.5.2 could hold the new world record for the biggest delta update. 355MB. Has any other delta been bigger?.

Developer builds have historically been much bigger in size than what the final released version is. I'd expect to see that number cut down to 1/3 of 355, probably around 118 or so when it is released.

And I can tell that a lot of the users on here are recent mac switchers. It is not uncommon with any of the Apple releases for the first few updates to contain a ton of "bug" fixes, such as 10.5.2 having supposedly 76. A lot of those "bug" fixes will be minor, and a few major. Microsoft does the same thing with their service packs, such as SP1, SP2, etc. They contain a heck of a lot more than 76, plus, Microsoft releases updates to Windows XP and Vista on almost a daily basis. So, each OS company does it (except for the daily part). I'd rather them knock out a bunch of "bug" fixes now and see overall system improvements. I mean, stuff like memory leaks are bug fixes, which are a good thing to fix, but not a hugely important deal.

Everyone needs to calm down. I for one have had no problems with 10.5/10.5.1 on my 1.83 ICD2 MacMini. The only problems I have had are with some third party apps that sometimes freeze. I've had safari crash a few times, but that is mostly because of Flash animations, which would be Adobe's fault, not Apple's. I've not had one problem with Mail, and I use it every single day and leave it running the whole day. Same goes for my iBook G4. Hardly any problems. For the people complaining of "jerky" animations, it's probably because of an older graphics card (because on my MacMini, which has the basic Intel GMA graphics card, they are very nice). They're a little jerky on my iBook, but so what? My iBook shipped with 10.3 and it's running 10.5 so I'm not expecting it to be spectacular. That's be like me installing XP on a computer that shipped with Win98 and expecting it to be awesome.. Not going to happen. I guess I just don't understand why people have panic attacks every time an update is released. I mean if you were to have a panic attack for every time a Microsoft update was to come out, you'd be dead after 1 month? I guess what I am saying is just relax, let the updates come and be happy. If you have problems, go to Apple's support page and submit a "bug" report of the problems you are having. Apple does have developers look at each one of those to figure out what caused the problems. It could be because of Apple "bugs" or because of the other third party hacks or apps that you have installed. And trust me, they run through and try to replicate some of the problems to see if they can get the same result and figure out why it happened the way it did. And to be fair, Microsoft does the exact same thing. So, give Apple time. No OS will ever have all problems fixed over night in 1 single update.

wjbombo
Dec 19, 2007, 10:48 AM
I also hope Apple took the opportunity to re-think how Spaces and Mail tasks work. The functional design seems like it is something born in Redmond, on a bad day. A very bad day.


Agreed. What I don't understand is why they didn't make stacks a feature you could turn on or off like spaces. :confused:
I've found it to be a big step backward in productivity at the expense of eye candy.:(

Not the end of the world though. I prefer stability and security to anything else no matter what OS I'm using.

Peace,
Will

wizard
Dec 19, 2007, 10:52 AM
So does this mean java 6 will be 64bit only :\

A very good thing in my opinion. Done right a 64 bit implementation should provide for robust performance and good memory usage.


if that's the case and apple is allready rejecting it's 32 bit user base... I dunno what to say.

Don't say anything! 64 bit is the way of the future, contrary to all the negativity associated with it. As to the 32 bit user base I really can't feel sorry for you at all. The Intel transition pretty much left an obvious warning to those that choose to stay on 32 bit platforms. Further me and more than a few others have been strident in our warnings about 32 bit hardware.

Dave

wrldwzrd89
Dec 19, 2007, 11:04 AM
I am glad to hear this news - I am a Java programmer, and have been wondering why Apple seemed to have dropped the ball on Java 6. I'm not having any serious Leopard issues at the moment but there is one thing I hope 10.5.2 fixes - that 20 second delay from when the screen shuts off to when the computer shuts off.

chem
Dec 19, 2007, 11:16 AM
This is not directed at any one particular poster, but rather at six pages of Java posts:

man, you Java developers are a whiny bunch. Don't like Xcode? Can't stand having to use Leopard on a 64-bit CPU to develop for Java 6? boo friggin hoo. I've never used a Java app I actually liked, anyway. Learn a real programming language like Fortran, python or Perl, please.

Nobody really cares if you're gonna boot to Linux on your Pentium 4 in order to do some Java 6 work. Go do it and stop wasting space posting here. Frankly, the less Java code I see on the Mac, the better.

Java programming is for the lowest common denominator.

GNice
Dec 19, 2007, 11:30 AM
Sorry, but what Java 6 things must you absolutely have? Not an attack, but a sincere question. I'm developing a Java web app right now on my mac. I don't understand the comment "I can't do Java development on a mac without Java 6." Please enlighten me? I'm not saying having Java 6 would be bad, I'm just wondering why not having it is a "show stopper".

GNice
Dec 19, 2007, 11:37 AM
This is not directed at any one particular poster, but rather at six pages of Java posts:

man, you Java developers are a whiny bunch. Don't like Xcode? Can't stand having to use Leopard on a 64-bit CPU to develop for Java 6? boo friggin hoo. I've never used a Java app I actually liked, anyway. Learn a real programming language like Fortran, python or Perl, please.

Nobody really cares if you're gonna boot to Linux on your Pentium 4 in order to do some Java 6 work. Go do it and stop wasting space posting here. Frankly, the less Java code I see on the Mac, the better.

Java programming is for the lowest common denominator.

Simple question...if Java isn't a real programming language then why are soooo many enterprise apps being developed with it? Please don't say hype because hype doesn't last but so long. Java isn't the only language I know how to program, but to say it isn't a real language is silly on the face of it. Maybe that was just hyperbole...I hope so...

Amdahl
Dec 19, 2007, 11:38 AM
If I switch to an application that has windows open in my current Space, always switch to those windows. Do not switch me to an entirely different Space for no apparent reason.
When I switch to a Document-based application in a Space, activate an actual Document rather than a window that represents a toolbox or something like it. Specifically, activate the last Document that I was working on in the application.
Do not switch me to another Space unless I request it explicitly by either changing to another Space via the interface or selecting an application that is not currently running in my Space. Do not suddenly switch me because another application in another Space has opened a dialog or some other alert.



1. Disagree; the current behavior is most logical for the Mac-demographic. People will get lost without this.
2. It doesn't do this already? I suppose I don't use many apps like you describe, so I haven't seen it give focus to a toolbox.
3. ARGH! I think subtitles or closed captioning in DVD Player will cause a switch like this. Very annoying. An alternative might be to make the Dock icon jump.

robbieduncan
Dec 19, 2007, 11:39 AM
Simple question...if Java isn't a real programming language then why are soooo many enterprise apps being developed with it? Please don't say hype because hype doesn't last but so long. Java isn't the only language I know how to program, but to say it isn't a real language is silly on the face of it. Maybe that was just hyperbole...I hope so...

Server-side Java is amazingly widely used and very, very fast when done right. I'd choose Java for intensive non-graphical apps over anything else...

GNice
Dec 19, 2007, 11:50 AM
Server-side Java is amazingly widely used and very, very fast when done right. I'd choose Java for intensive non-graphical apps over anything else...

That was exactly my point...maybe chem was only thinking about AWT/SWT apps. I have no stats to back it up, but the vast majority of Java developers I come in contact with build server-side Java apps.

Small White Car
Dec 19, 2007, 11:50 AM
The Intel transition pretty much left an obvious warning to those that choose to stay on 32 bit platforms.

Wait, so when the Intel Macs came out Apple said "Don't buy these new macs! Wait 10 months!"

I don't remember them saying that. What "warning" are you talking about?

gnasher729
Dec 19, 2007, 11:55 AM
Does that mean that this new version of Java won't work on my Mac. :( WTF???

This is a developer seed. Are you a developer?

Apple does developer seeds so that developers can find bugs. If Apple has a 32 bit version that they are quite confident with, and a 64 bit version that they are less confident with, then obviously a developer seed should contain the 64 bit version in order to find bugs.

iBunny
Dec 19, 2007, 11:57 AM
So, did anyone installed 10.5.2 ???:D

lol.

I hope to God that English is not your first language. :D

xUKHCx
Dec 19, 2007, 12:10 PM
Any other juicy bits you'd like to share

britpop
Dec 19, 2007, 12:18 PM
damn, missed it

babboxy
Dec 19, 2007, 12:27 PM
i just made it in time to see the thumbnail ... looked like my xp start menu :p

Stella
Dec 19, 2007, 12:50 PM
That was exactly my point...maybe chem was only thinking about AWT/SWT apps. I have no stats to back it up, but the vast majority of Java developers I come in contact with build server-side Java apps.

And the vast majority of Java IDEs, and other tools such as XML Apps ( i.e., Oxygen), database clients ( i.e,. Aqua DS, DBVisualiser ) are built using Java, thus require a GUI. Client side Java apps are also important.

How many programmers would seriously use XCode over say Eclipse or IntelliJ for serious development? Not many - these people would be in the minority.

There aren't many differences between JDK5 and 6, compared to 4 and 5 but Java6 has better performance than Java5.

writeous
Dec 19, 2007, 12:59 PM
Honestly I like stacks, but i'll probably end up going back to the hierarchical if the pic is legit;)

GNice
Dec 19, 2007, 01:06 PM
And the vast majority of Java IDEs, and other tools such as XML Apps ( i.e., Oxygen), database clients ( i.e,. Aqua DS, DBVisualiser ) are built using Java, thus require a GUI. Client side Java apps are also important.

How many programmers would seriously use XCode over say Eclipse or IntelliJ for serious development? Not many - these people would be in the minority.

There aren't many differences between JDK5 and 6, compared to 4 and 5 but Java6 has better performance than Java5.

I agree wholeheartedly...

HailToTheVictor
Dec 19, 2007, 01:32 PM
If I had a dollar for every time Safari has crashed on me since loading Leopard day 1, I could have paid for it...the full retail price.

MacAddict1978
Dec 19, 2007, 01:43 PM
Does somebody has wi-fi issues?

Sometimes i am browsing and safari says i am not connected to the internet but I AM! :mad:

Is it just me or somey body else has the sam issues :confused:

i spent an hour on the phone with apple about this. here are a few things that fixed this for some people:

search for appleairport2.kext if you have this file, delete it.
Its a left over from an update that should have been removed by an installer.

If able, reinstall the keychain 1.0 update, has worked for some on other forums. I couldn't reinstall it though. Kept saying I wasn't eligible and I'm not terminal savvy or anything to force it.

My fix via apple care: Create a second user account. It actually worked. But if I delete the second user account, the problem returns. So for now I have the annoying feature of having to log in every time i boot, but it's oddly working for me.

Oh, and they acted to surprised about this issue. I said, "Really? The 600 posts on your own discussion boards haven't caught your eye yet, eh?"

surfsnow
Dec 19, 2007, 01:52 PM
I can foresee that the "Secure Empty Trash" problem won't get solved in 10.5.2
I am ready to call Apple AGAIN :mad: to address the problem.

How would it possible if you have 1 item in your trash can and it will become 5 items to be deleted in "Secure Empty Trash". That's just not acceptable, and how come they cannot catch this obvious bug in the initial release.

darbyclash34
Dec 19, 2007, 02:04 PM
Tell me about it. Bought myself a lovely MacBook in May, running 10.4.8 ... all lovely.

Updated to 10.4.9 and my wifi internet connection stopped working - transfer speeds dropped to about 2k per second when it worked at all. Tried the Airport patch that fixed this issue for some people. Nothing. Rolled back to 10.4.8 and all was well.

Then Apple announced that they were making changes to .Mac and you'd need to run 10.4.9 or better in order to sync properly. This wasn't an option, so I waited, with a crippled .Mac account, for 10.4.10 and dutifully updated.

Guess what?

Wifi internet FUBARed again, so I had to roll back to 10.4.8 ... which means that I am currently paying for a .Mac account that I cannot use with my portable machine, due to a known issue with Apple's own operating system.

Thanks, guys. After fifteen years of dedicated Mac use, thousands of pounds of my money, it's embarrassing to be stuck in this situation having recommended my Mac experience to so many people.

Bah.

Jim

I feel the exact same way about the wireless situation. Mine has essentially not functioned, or has had very impaired functionality since 10.4.9 was released. I hope this is fixed soon.

Shawn

compuguy1088
Dec 19, 2007, 02:12 PM
This is not directed at any one particular poster, but rather at six pages of Java posts:

man, you Java developers are a whiny bunch. Don't like Xcode? Can't stand having to use Leopard on a 64-bit CPU to develop for Java 6? boo friggin hoo. I've never used a Java app I actually liked, anyway. Learn a real programming language like Fortran, python or Perl, please.

Nobody really cares if you're gonna boot to Linux on your Pentium 4 in order to do some Java 6 work. Go do it and stop wasting space posting here. Frankly, the less Java code I see on the Mac, the better.

Java programming is for the lowest common denominator.

Apparently to the College Board, Java is a language. That is what they teach in the Computer Science curriculum.

avkills
Dec 19, 2007, 02:50 PM
Java is a steaming pile of McNealy Sun poop. I really don't care at all.

Apple should be focusing on more important issues like the wacky graphics drivers in Leopard; plus all the other roaches crawling all over the place.

Fix the foundation before working on useless fluff.

-mark

Virgil-TB2
Dec 19, 2007, 03:03 PM
iJawn108: No, I think they'll do a 32/64bit ub when they release it... they still have much work to do.

And J2SE6 DP8?! how the hell did I miss 1-7???

In any case, can anyone confirm if the java DP is available to all ADC members?This is a funny cartoon and all, but nothing can really change the fact that what the Steve Jobs character says in it is essentially quite true. Java *is* a mostly useless, mostly un-used, bulky, ugly, etc. solution that has most *definitely* seen it's best day a long, long, long time ago.

Almost every browser user I know (that bothers to change the settings in their browser at all), turned off Java support a long time ago. JavaScript may still be the preferred method for web action, but Java itself is an "also-ran" when you consider it next to other web technologies.

I've been waiting for that cross-platform Java promise to come to fruition since the first day it was announced all those years ago and it just has never, ever happened.

IMO, Java enthusiasts have about as much right to get upset about the "less-than-timely" inclusion of Java in OS-X, as Commodore 64 enthusiasts have to demand C-64 emulator support. In other words, it's nice that Apple et al., do still support Java, but (I think), kind of outrageous that anyone would criticise them for not being timely with it's inclusion.

Wake up and smell the coffee Java enthusiasts! ;)

Jim Campbell
Dec 19, 2007, 03:18 PM
Its far more likely, almost practically certain, that your $50 home router is at fault, and that you need a replacement ;).

My "$50 home router" is a C2D Mac Mini, and my three Mac wireless home network was just fine until I ran the 10.4.9 updater, and ever since my MacBook hasn't been able to get a wireless connection worth a damn unless I roll back to 10.4.8, which cripples my .Mac compatibility ... which somewhat negates the point of having it, if my portable machine can't access my e-mail or iDisk away from home, doesn't it?

Did you miss the part about my 15 years of Mac use? You aren't to know that I've managed entire offices full of Macs, that I go back to System 7 and I have run multi-Mac networks including state of the art servers, and sometimes Mac Classics, but you ought to think long and hard about who you patronise.

Bah.

Jim

Virgil-TB2
Dec 19, 2007, 03:21 PM
There are far more problems with Leopard than I have experience with previous Mac OS releases. It's a combination of LOTS if minor bugs, plus some stuff thats seriously broken - like AirDisk and iChat completely messed up and unusable for lots of people.While I tend to agree in general, I think people are seriously forgetting that all OS's have bugs and that some of these never get fixed.

To all those staying with Tiger... what about Tiger bugs? :eek:
There are quite a few even after the latest update.

My favorite is that the "Cmd-H" key-stroke to hide the foremost application (and this is one of my fave commands in general), never quite worked right. Even after the 10.4.11 update, every once in a while "Cmd-H" just stopped working for a given program. The system simply lost track of the "hide" status of apps in the list. I started noticing this in the 10.4.3 release if I remember correctly and was greeted by it on every machine and every subsequent release.

So there is at least one, high-profile, in-your-face, easily repeatable, "happened to thousands of users," kind of bug in Tiger that presumably will *never* be figured out.

Too bad, so sad, that's what you get for using those "Computer" thingies.
Wah! :(

GNice
Dec 19, 2007, 03:26 PM
This is a funny cartoon and all, but nothing can really change the fact that what the Steve Jobs character says in it is essentially quite true. Java *is* a mostly useless, mostly un-used, bulky, ugly, etc. solution that has most *definitely* seen it's best day a long, long, long time ago.

Almost every browser user I know (that bothers to change the settings in their browser at all), turned off Java support a long time ago. JavaScript may still be the preferred method for web action, but Java itself is an "also-ran" when you consider it next to other web technologies.

I've been waiting for that cross-platform Java promise to come to fruition since the first day it was announced all those years ago and it just has never, ever happened.

IMO, Java enthusiasts have about as much right to get upset about the "less-than-timely" inclusion of Java in OS-X, as Commodore 64 enthusiasts have to demand C-64 emulator support. In other words, it's nice that Apple et al., do still support Java, but (I think), kind of outrageous that anyone would criticise them for not being timely with it's inclusion.

Wake up and smell the coffee Java enthusiasts! ;)

Sorry, but you must be totally clueless when it comes to enterprise application development...I mean totally clueless. If you think Java is ONLY about running applets in the browser you are the one that is waaaaaaaay out of touch. :p

My company employs hundreds of Java developers and we have a billion plus dollars a year in revenue partly from those products. Not too shabby!

Having said that, I'm not the least bit worried about Java 6 taking a while to be available on the mac...it's not really that big a deal.

Eraserhead
Dec 19, 2007, 04:21 PM
@ Virgil-TB2

I suggest you get an ADC account (https://connect.apple.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MemberSite.woa/100/wo/ff14V6uyHSTw2YhIJ8o1mG362EG/1.0.1.17.2.25) and report your bug to http://bugreport.apple.com/

@ Jim Campbell.

I suggest you contact Applecare, or file a bug report as well.

I can't say this enough, personally as a developer I love bug reports, you at least then know there is a problem. Also mostly even if they are fairly obvious they haven't been filed before, and if they are marked as a duplicate then you know its been considered.

If these issues occur with the same hardware/software configuration more than three times as Peace mentioned earlier. There is little point in complaining on this forum about issues (once you have confirmed that they aren't something you are doing wrong/a hardware issue).

swagi
Dec 19, 2007, 04:28 PM
i spent an hour on the phone with apple about this. here are a few things that fixed this for some people:

search for appleairport2.kext if you have this file, delete it.
Its a left over from an update that should have been removed by an installer.

If able, reinstall the keychain 1.0 update, has worked for some on other forums. I couldn't reinstall it though. Kept saying I wasn't eligible and I'm not terminal savvy or anything to force it.

My fix via apple care: Create a second user account. It actually worked. But if I delete the second user account, the problem returns. So for now I have the annoying feature of having to log in every time i boot, but it's oddly working for me.

Oh, and they acted to surprised about this issue. I said, "Really? The 600 posts on your own discussion boards haven't caught your eye yet, eh?"

Wait a minute! Tell me, my eyes are not O.K.

So, I just ingested your information and found out, that you had only one account on your Mac. Are you freakin' serious?

O.K. Little reality check, in case nobody told you before:

NEVER ONLY USE ONE ACCOUNT ON A COMPUTER!

This applies to all OSes, be it Unix, Linux, Windows or Mac OS X. If you are really surfing the Web with an Admin account, then you are asking for serious trouble (all the security marketing hype aside).

Basically you should always have one admin account for maintenance and installing, and one user account for your everyday stuff. Don't worry, Mac OS X may also allow you to install Appz with your user account. You just have to identify as admin to drag stuff to critical folders (like the global Applications folder).

The procedure should always be: Install OS, create admin account. Install globally necessary Appz with the admin account. Create user account. Use the admin account for maintenance only.

I love my Mac, but honestly, Windows wouldn't have that bad of a reference, if only half of the people got accustomed to creating Admin and User accounts on there.

gmeddles
Dec 19, 2007, 05:03 PM
Sorry, but you must be totally clueless when it comes to enterprise application development...I mean totally clueless. If you think Java is about running applets in the browser you are the one that is waaaaaaaay out of touch. :p

My company employs hundreds of Java developers and we have a billion plus dollars a year in revenue partly from those products. Not too shabby!

Having said that, I'm not the least bit worried about Java 6 taking a while to be available on the mac...it's not really that big a deal.

I rarely post on here, but I'm one of those unique intersections of long-time mac user (since the 80's) and long-time software architect/java developers (10+ years). In the application server space, Java has no equal at present. That said, Mac's have no real footing in that marketplace. Companies run AIX/WAS, Solaris/WebLogic, or linux/jboss. It's also not a place where the latest JDK is ever used. Many enterprise apps are still using 1.4.2 JDK and are just switching over to the 1.5 JDK (not to be confused with Java 5 EE). Apple isn't a major player in the market, and what marketshare they do have doesn't require immediate adoption of the latest spec to come out of the JCP. That said, they need to determine what the long-term strategy for addressing the enterprise application-server space will be. Either fight competively or get out. Right now they are somewhere in the money-wasting-middle-ground.

On the other hand, java is less than ideal for client applications on any OS, but the Mac in particular. If you are going to do Swing- or Eclipe-based clients, then you definitely need the latest JDK's to get reasonable performance. Aside from the developer utilities (XML editors, Aqua Data Studio) most client-side java apps are custom for enterprise customers who have specific requirements that couldn't be met some other way. General-use software usually isn't java. In that realm, all of those Steve Jobs-bashing-java quotes are very apropos. When I come home and write home-grown software for my mac I use cocoa. Dogma rarely has a place in software. Tools are there to be used, and part of being a good developer is knowing which tool to use for the task at hand.

Jim Campbell
Dec 19, 2007, 05:05 PM
Jim Campbell.

I suggest you contact Applecare, or file a bug report as well.


Done it. More than once. I am very aware that Apple have whittled down the numbers of people that have experienced this problem with various fixes and workarounds ...

I understand that there are problems resolving this issue - I've looked into it and its very hard find anything resembling a common set of circumstances, and that makes finding a solution pretty much impossible. But ...

But, there is some damn thing in 10.4.9 and 10.4.10 that breaks Airport in some MacBooks, that isn't in 10.4.8 and I can't believe that it's beyond the wit of Apple's software guys to figure out what it is and sort the damn thing out.

Cheers

Jim

Jim Campbell
Dec 19, 2007, 05:13 PM
NEVER ONLY USE ONE ACCOUNT ON A COMPUTER!


So ... I have to have two accounts on my MacBook in order to get my wireless internet connection to work the way it's supposed to?

That is entirely, utterly, ridiculous. I am - and have been for a decade and a half - a Mac evangelist, defender and apologist, and your post embarrasses me.

I'm allowed to point out that Apple have dropped the ball on this one occasion, goddammit!

Cheers

Jim

robbieduncan
Dec 19, 2007, 05:16 PM
...lots of sensible stuff...

Yep, we still use on a 1.4.2 JDK on our Solaris servers. Apple are not really competing in this market. XServes really don't cut it as 1U servers when the movement is all towards massive boxes that can be dynamically partitioned into "smaller" ones. That's a trick that, as of yet, OSX can't manage (and nothing to do with Java itself either).

Eraserhead
Dec 19, 2007, 05:21 PM
Done it. More than once. I am very aware that Apple have whittled down the numbers of people that have experienced this problem with various fixes and workarounds ...

Good for you, however if you've been through that I think its probably time to shell out $50 for a router, which is what most people use to connect to the internet so you are much less likely to have problems :).

M!K
Dec 19, 2007, 06:59 PM
Great they're thinking about repairing this issue. I mean I'm having so much trouble with my printer on my MacBook Pro!!! And I need to print some important stuff for school... so I'm kinda mad at Apple right now!

MacAddict1978
Dec 19, 2007, 10:26 PM
Wait a minute! Tell me, my eyes are not O.K.

So, I just ingested your information and found out, that you had only one account on your Mac. Are you freakin' serious?

O.K. Little reality check, in case nobody told you before:

NEVER ONLY USE ONE ACCOUNT ON A COMPUTER!

This applies to all OSes, be it Unix, Linux, Windows or Mac OS X. If you are really surfing the Web with an Admin account, then you are asking for serious trouble (all the security marketing hype aside).



Basically you should always have one admin account for maintenance and installing, and one user account for your everyday stuff. Don't worry, Mac OS X may also allow you to install Appz with your user account. You just have to identify as admin to drag stuff to critical folders (like the global Applications folder).

The procedure should always be: Install OS, create admin account. Install globally necessary Appz with the admin account. Create user account. Use the admin account for maintenance only.

I love my Mac, but honestly, Windows wouldn't have that bad of a reference, if only half of the people got accustomed to creating Admin and User accounts on there.

You forgot to throw in there that if burglars bust in my apartment, they can surf the web on sarfai too easily.... but safari 3 has built in burglar protection in leopard. it will crash on them enough they will just think its broken and not worth taking :p

Seriously though, much of what you said is like telling people to book 2 rooms in steerage on the Titanic.

If its going down, it's going down.

I take lots of precautions with my macbook however to make sure it's a bit more secure. (Though I don't find it necessary to have 2 user accounts!)

Windows.... I'll give you that one. It rivals swiss cheese in holes.

Stella
Dec 19, 2007, 10:29 PM
What utter bollocks. Try telling that to the many companies that develop client side, and enterprise server side applications.

When SJ was referring to Java, IMO, he was talking about Java applets. Java is alive and well on desktop, server side - webapps or invisible to user , and, cell phones ( read: the majority of cell phone games are developed in Java and perform very well ).

If SJ meant something different then he's totally clueless and you've fallen for the RDF, sadly. Java is used everywhere, you may not know it, but it is.



This is a funny cartoon and all, but nothing can really change the fact that what the Steve Jobs character says in it is essentially quite true. Java *is* a mostly useless, mostly un-used, bulky, ugly, etc. solution that has most *definitely* seen it's best day a long, long, long time ago.

Almost every browser user I know (that bothers to change the settings in their browser at all), turned off Java support a long time ago. JavaScript may still be the preferred method for web action, but Java itself is an "also-ran" when you consider it next to other web technologies.

I've been waiting for that cross-platform Java promise to come to fruition since the first day it was announced all those years ago and it just has never, ever happened.

IMO, Java enthusiasts have about as much right to get upset about the "less-than-timely" inclusion of Java in OS-X, as Commodore 64 enthusiasts have to demand C-64 emulator support. In other words, it's nice that Apple et al., do still support Java, but (I think), kind of outrageous that anyone would criticise them for not being timely with it's inclusion.

Wake up and smell the coffee Java enthusiasts! ;)

flyinmac
Dec 19, 2007, 10:37 PM
What utter bollocks. Try telling that to the many companies that develop client side, and enterprise server side applications.

When SJ was referring to Java, he was talking about Java applets in web pages. Java is alive and well on desktop, server side - webapps or invisible to user , and, cell phones ( read: the majority of cell phone games are developed in Java and perform very well ).

If SJ meant something different then he's totally clueless and you've fallen for the RDF. Sadly. Java is used everywhere, you may not know it, but it is.

So, that brings me to the next question...

If this Java thing is so important, then how come I didn't even realize I was missing it until I stumbled onto this thread? I had just assumed it was there since it was in Tiger.

Yes, I'm running Leopard.

Stella
Dec 19, 2007, 10:53 PM
So, that brings me to the next question...

If this Java thing is so important, then how come I didn't even realize I was missing it until I stumbled onto this thread? I had just assumed it was there since it was in Tiger.

Yes, I'm running Leopard.

Are you a Java developer? Are you aware of what language the websites ( i.e., web applications ) you may use regularly are developed in? Are you aware of how wide spread Java is used? There are all sort of reasons why Java is important, overall, and on OSX.

I hope your not seriously suggesting because you don't find it important, that, everyone else shouldn't either.

Using OSX for development on a day to day basis is an absolute pleasure. Apple threaten this for many people because they choose to be lackluster about Java support. If Apple can't keep up with Java then they should let Sun instead develop the OSX version.

flyinmac
Dec 19, 2007, 11:02 PM
Are you a Java developer? Are you aware of what language the websites ( i.e., web applications ) you may use regularly are developed in? Are you aware of how wide spread Java is used? There are all sort of reasons why Java is important, overall, and on OSX.

I hope your not seriously suggesting because you don't find it important, that, everyone else shouldn't either,

I understand that some people / corporations use it. My wife's office has a lot of remote stuff that done through websites and they also set up lots of web applications.

My main point, is that people who work in those environments and need those web applications usually have Windows machines (because that's what the corporations supply their employees for use). My wife's office won't even permit us to use Macs to access the information remotely or to remotely log-in to their server (even though the software to do so is available for free). They just will not support it, and provide pre-configured installers to run on the PC's (with hidden settings), so that we cannot obtain the information needed to manually setup a computer to log-in.

So, since they won't provide the settings, and they only provide Windows installers to configure the PC's, you can't use a Mac even though the software is available for the Mac (and for free) to get into the system.

Everything they do is with web apps. So, I'm aware of it's use in the business world. But, since many corporations mandate using computers they supply to perform business tasks, that takes a pretty good chunk out of the potential users.

The main point being, that your average web user isn't going to miss or notice the lack of Java support. I go all over the web, and really can't recall the last time a Java applet loaded.

thirdeyeopen666
Dec 19, 2007, 11:11 PM
Sorry English is my 2nd language so I was unable to find the word in my dictionary.

English is my first language, and it isn't in my dictionary... because it isn't a word. I've never heard someone have the balls to say replicateable out loud. I'd gladly correct them if I did. His suggestion that it is ok to use because "who uses replicable" is one of the more laughable (laughingable?) things I've seen on MacRumors forums... and that's really saying something.

pamon
Dec 20, 2007, 12:18 AM
I preface this as a leopard user, but it amazes me the # of updates and features that have had to be fixed before its right. IMHO, Apple rushed this out and should've gotten everything fixed before release.

mdriftmeyer
Dec 20, 2007, 12:49 AM
I understand that some people / corporations use it. My wife's office has a lot of remote stuff that done through websites and they also set up lots of web applications.

My main point, is that people who work in those environments and need those web applications usually have Windows machines (because that's what the corporations supply their employees for use). My wife's office won't even permit us to use Macs to access the information remotely or to remotely log-in to their server (even though the software to do so is available for free). They just will not support it, and provide pre-configured installers to run on the PC's (with hidden settings), so that we cannot obtain the information needed to manually setup a computer to log-in.

So, since they won't provide the settings, and they only provide Windows installers to configure the PC's, you can't use a Mac even though the software is available for the Mac (and for free) to get into the system.

Everything they do is with web apps. So, I'm aware of it's use in the business world. But, since many corporations mandate using computers they supply to perform business tasks, that takes a pretty good chunk out of the potential users.

The main point being, that your average web user isn't going to miss or notice the lack of Java support. I go all over the web, and really can't recall the last time a Java applet loaded.

The Key being Enterprise. Fortune 1000 [1-1000] use Java and write very large applications suites which are a combination of AppServer/Server-side and AWT/Swing Client-side apps that are often custom KIOSK apps that hit data records requiring hundreds of millions of rows and more.

Apple needs to make a coherent strategy that is consistent with the rest of the Industry.

It has taken 10 years to shed the ilk that was Carbon/Classic. That is actually 8 years longer than originally planned and it was only last WWDC they made it clear by killing off Carbon64 to make the switch.

Apple finally realizes it can be competitive in their first class Cocoa environment and creating compelling applications for consumers to use and be productive, without having to cower to Adobe and Microsoft.

However, there is no point in investing in Java if you're not going to make an intriguing platform for development/deployment running Java in the Enterprise.

Cocoa/ObjC WebObjects when it was in its true roots was an incredibly powerful and scalable development system.

With the advent of various other RAD tools it's clear that Java isn't the only game in town.

Make your minds up Apple and make the solution a compelling, robust and extensible one.

mdriftmeyer
Dec 20, 2007, 12:51 AM
I preface this as a leopard user, but it amazes me the # of updates and features that have had to be fixed before its right. IMHO, Apple rushed this out and should've gotten everything fixed before release.

I know nothing of your Operating Systems background, but get used to all software products being compromises at release.

There is no panacea solution before release.

Jim Campbell
Dec 20, 2007, 01:58 AM
Good for you, however if you've been through that I think its probably time to shell out $50 for a router, which is what most people use to connect to the internet so you are much less likely to have problems :).

What kind of crack are you smoking? Are you seriously suggesting that I should have to buy a router to replace a £500+ computer that's supposed to be able to do this?

Cheeses.

Jim

yetanotherdave
Dec 20, 2007, 02:18 AM
What kind of crack are you smoking? Are you seriously suggesting that I should have to buy a router to replace a £500+ computer that's supposed to be able to do this?

Cheeses.

Jim

You only seem to have mentioned .8 .9 and .10, I thought .11 fixed the wireless issues you are talking about? You have tried it haven't you? If not I tend to find that all software and hardware issues are fixed by creating 36 different user accounts, one for office docs, one for internet, one for email, one for installing stuff, one for games, one for modifying stuff.. ;)

Jim Campbell
Dec 20, 2007, 02:58 AM
You only seem to have mentioned .8 .9 and .10, I thought .11 fixed the wireless issues you are talking about? You have tried it haven't you?

Sorry ... forgot about 10.4.11 - installed it, rebooted, and my wifi internet immediately died. Uninstalled it straight away. It was on my machine for about 5 minutes, which is why I forgot about it.

I also installed the Airport Extreme update 2007-004 which fixed this issue for a lot of people, and that didn't work, either!

Cheers

Jim

Stella
Dec 20, 2007, 06:50 AM
Sorry, I've lost what your point was!

I understand that some people / corporations use it. My wife's office has a lot of remote stuff that done through websites and they also set up lots of web applications.


A web application is platform independent and never fires up the client's JVM. The user has no idea that Java is being used on the server.


My main point, is that people who work in those environments and need those web applications usually have Windows machines (because that's what the corporations supply their employees for use). My wife's office won't even permit us to use Macs to access the information remotely or to remotely log-in to their server (even though the software to do so is available for free). They just will not support it, and provide pre-configured installers to run on the PC's (with hidden settings), so that we cannot obtain the information needed to manually setup a computer to log-in.


Java applets are rarely used these days.


The main point being, that your average web user isn't going to miss or notice the lack of Java support. I go all over the web, and really can't recall the last time a Java applet loaded.

SJ once stated that he wanted OSX to be the best Java development platform.

There is absolutely no reason why Apple should retire Java on OSX or give it even less attention that present. *You* may not need Java but there's plenty of other people that do. OSX without Java will damage Macs in the workplace, users and its reputation.

MrCrowbar
Dec 20, 2007, 08:43 AM
English is my first language, and it isn't in my dictionary... because it isn't a word. I've never heard someone have the balls to say replicateable out loud. I'd gladly correct them if I did. His suggestion that it is ok to use because "who uses replicable" is one of the more laughable (laughingable?) things I've seen on MacRumors forums... and that's really saying something.

I think I have a report by an apple genius where it says "replicatable". I'll post it when I find it :D

Eraserhead
Dec 20, 2007, 09:06 AM
What kind of crack are you smoking? Are you seriously suggesting that I should have to buy a router to replace a £500+ computer that's supposed to be able to do this?

Yep. If only 1% of people connect to the internet in the way you do, then Apple probably doesn't consider the risk of screwing something else up worth fixing this bug.

Of course the more information they have about the bug, the less likely damage to other components if they fix it.

kaiwai
Dec 20, 2007, 09:16 AM
Good for you, however if you've been through that I think its probably time to shell out $50 for a router, which is what most people use to connect to the internet so you are much less likely to have problems :).

Dear god, stop trying to turn a computer into a router; what next, a home made router constructed out of an old PCMCIA card and 1/2 dozen coat hangers arranged in a star like patter for maximum reception?

Jim Campbell
Dec 20, 2007, 10:10 AM
Dear god, stop trying to turn a computer into a router; what next, a home made router constructed out of an old PCMCIA card and 1/2 dozen coat hangers arranged in a star like patter for maximum reception?

The problem isn't with the Mini - the iMac picks up wireless internet just fine from the Mini.

It's the MacBook - and 30 seconds on Apple's own forums shows that there are plenty of people whose wifi is FUBARed on their MacBooks with any update from 10.4.9 or 10.4.10 onwards. If I have anything other than the version of OSX the MacBook shipped with installed, then wifi is useless - not just at home, but in hotspots as well.

I would have no problem with sticking at 10.4.8 if it wasn't for the fact that .Mac now doesn't work properly with anything before 10.4.10, meaning that the machine I specifically bought so that I could work away from home can't properly access my e-mail, or iDisk.

I bought the machine for a specific purpose and subscribed to .Mac to support that purpose, and Apple's own software has removed that functionality.

If I wanted a laptop that didn't just work, then I could have saved several hundred quid and bought a bargain basement Windows job. I paid the "Apple Tax" willingly to avoid precisely the situation I am now in.

If that makes me a whiner, so be it.

Cheers

Jim

JFreak
Dec 20, 2007, 10:22 AM
It has taken 10 years to shed the ilk that was Carbon/Classic. That is actually 8 years longer than originally planned and it was only last WWDC they made it clear by killing off Carbon64 to make the switch.

Backwards compatibility, anyone? Seriously, Apple has done good. It has supported the deadend Carbon/Classic and at the same time encouraged develpers to move on to the next one. That 8 years is more than anyone can ask for, IMO.

kingtj
Dec 20, 2007, 10:30 AM
Even IF you could prove that statistic, it would mean that you're counting all the people who are still hanging on to their really OLD Macs ... puttering along with the original MacOS on a Performa and whatnot.

The fact is, if you want to develop modern software for Macs, you really have no business not investing in the current architecture. (I know, some "financially strapped freeware developer" is going to get all bent out of shape at my statement. But too bad... I'm talking about people coding for a profit here, ok?)

I mean, if you sell your PowerMac G5 or iMac G5 you write code on now, you'll still get a decent return on your money to put towards a new iMac or Mac Pro. And even if that means coming up with another $1000-1500 or whatever, that should be an expense you can write-off on your federal taxes as a business expense.

I understand that Java development insulates you from the whole "Universal binary" dilemma (no need to have an Intel based system to test how your UB code runs on said processor type. Even so, I would think a developer would want to use a machine running the architecture Apple has moved ALL of their products to now? The performance is clearly better, and time is money when waiting on your code to compile/recompile.



Show me statistics that 90% of Macs are PowerPC's. Until then, whatever.

Then go slap "Apple" in the face. See if they care.

kaiwai
Dec 20, 2007, 06:40 PM
(Aside: Can I ask the mods why it's OK for someone to address me like this, but when I get mildly irritated, my post gets edited?)

The problem isn't with the Mini - the iMac picks up wireless internet just fine from the Mini.

It's the MacBook - and 30 seconds on Apple's own forums shows that there are plenty of people whose wifi is FUBARed on their MacBooks with any update from 10.4.9 or 10.4.10 onwards. If I have anything other than the version of OSX the MacBook shipped with installed, then wifi is useless - not just at home, but in hotspots as well.

I would have no problem with sticking at 10.4.8 if it wasn't for the fact that .Mac now doesn't work properly with anything before 10.4.10, meaning that the machine I specifically bought so that I could work away from home can't properly access my e-mail, or iDisk.

I bought the machine for a specific purpose and subscribed to .Mac to support that purpose, and Apple's own software has removed that functionality.

If I wanted a laptop that didn't just work, then I could have saved several hundred quid and bought a bargain basement Windows job. I paid the "Apple Tax" willingly to avoid precisely the situation I am now in.

If that makes me a whiner, so be it.

Cheers

Jim

Hang on, you setup the machine in a way it was never intended to run and now you complain when things break? am I the only one seeing that the problem isn't in Apple's corner? Why you also spent NZ$1000 on a computer when a NZ$100 router could have done the job - God only knows (and I think even he is confused about the situation).

Jim Campbell
Dec 21, 2007, 03:41 AM
Hang on, you setup the machine in a way it was never intended to run and now you complain when things break? am I the only one seeing that the problem isn't in Apple's corner? Why you also spent NZ$1000 on a computer when a NZ$100 router could have done the job - God only knows (and I think even he is confused about the situation).

What in God's name are you talking about? I bought the Mini first as a media centre and it's connected directly to the cable modem by ethernet.

I then subsequently bought a MacBook and an iMac (to replace my venerable G4 tower) and enabled the "Share Internet Connection" option in Airport on the Mini so that the other machines could access the internet from different rooms in the house ... how is this using the machine in a way that Apple did not intend?

This set-up worked just fine until I installed a system update when prompted to by Apple which completely borked the Airport on the MacBook, and nothing Apple has done since has rectified it. Again, I should point out that Apple's own discussion forums are not short of people in the same situation.

In what way is it unreasonable to expect my laptop's wifi to work with Apple-issued software? As I said, it doesn't work in wifi hotspots either if I upgrade the OS.

I don't understand this eagerness to blame me for the failure of a system that only occurred when I installed Apple's own system update and which they have entirely failed to fix over the course of the last six months.

In addition, they have exacerbated the situation by making .Mac only fully compatible with 10.4.10 onwards, so I can either have functioning wifi or full .Mac access but not both. Not that .Mac access is worth a damn if I can't actually sustain a wifi connection long enough to use it.

All I originally said was that I hoped that the vague references to 10.5.2 fixing "Airport issues" finally addresses this problem, notwithstanding the fact that I'm going to have to buy an OS upgrade for no reason other than to get Airport and .Mac working again.

I'm starting to see why some Mac fans have a bad name in some parts of the interweb, given the haste that there has been to heap opprobium on me, a former Mac professional, and a Mac user for fifteen years, for having the audacity to suggest that Apple has not served me well on this occasion.

Cheers

Jim

cb1016
Dec 21, 2007, 02:08 PM
Sorry, but what Java 6 things must you absolutely have? Not an attack, but a sincere question. I'm developing a Java web app right now on my mac. I don't understand the comment "I can't do Java development on a mac without Java 6." Please enlighten me? I'm not saying having Java 6 would be bad, I'm just wondering why not having it is a "show stopper".

FIPS 140-2 compliant crypto via NSS in the Java 6 PKCS #11 implementation.

psychofreak
Dec 21, 2007, 05:42 PM
AWESOME!!! Does it look like Tiger if the box is unticked? Rounded corners and all...

emotion
Dec 21, 2007, 05:47 PM
Quite cool, though this is already in the OS just not via a menu:

In terminal:

sudo defaults write /System/Library/LaunchDaemons/com.apple.WindowServer 'EnvironmentVariables' -dict 'CI_NO_BACKGROUND_IMAGE' 1

From http://www.usingmac.com/2007/11/18/leopard-tweaking-terminal-codes

psychofreak
Dec 21, 2007, 05:58 PM
My grandad has bad vision and there's something I'm really hoping for in 10.5.2, the ability to enlarge the text in Finder's Sidebar (like you can in iTunes, Mail, iPhoto etc.), any word on this?

kaiwai
Dec 25, 2007, 02:06 AM
What in God's name are you talking about? I bought the Mini first as a media centre and it's connected directly to the cable modem by ethernet.

I then subsequently bought a MacBook and an iMac (to replace my venerable G4 tower) and enabled the "Share Internet Connection" option in Airport on the Mini so that the other machines could access the internet from different rooms in the house ... how is this using the machine in a way that Apple did not intend?

This set-up worked just fine until I installed a system update when prompted to by Apple which completely borked the Airport on the MacBook, and nothing Apple has done since has rectified it. Again, I should point out that Apple's own discussion forums are not short of people in the same situation.

In what way is it unreasonable to expect my laptop's wifi to work with Apple-issued software? As I said, it doesn't work in wifi hotspots either if I upgrade the OS.

I don't understand this eagerness to blame me for the failure of a system that only occurred when I installed Apple's own system update and which they have entirely failed to fix over the course of the last six months.

In addition, they have exacerbated the situation by making .Mac only fully compatible with 10.4.10 onwards, so I can either have functioning wifi or full .Mac access but not both. Not that .Mac access is worth a damn if I can't actually sustain a wifi connection long enough to use it.

All I originally said was that I hoped that the vague references to 10.5.2 fixing "Airport issues" finally addresses this problem, notwithstanding the fact that I'm going to have to buy an OS upgrade for no reason other than to get Airport and .Mac working again.

I'm starting to see why some Mac fans have a bad name in some parts of the interweb, given the haste that there has been to heap opprobium on me, a former Mac professional, and a Mac user for fifteen years, for having the audacity to suggest that Apple has not served me well on this occasion.

Cheers

Jim

No, its the fact that you go out and use a piece of hardware NEVER designed to do what you're attempting; it is NOT up to Apple to address issues which occur in products being used in a way which it was NEVER intended.

Their focus is on the 99% of people who use the computers in the way Apple expected. You expect Apple to ring up little old you and ask, "now, what weird and wonderful way around you using your machine - because perish if we break something only 1% actually use!".

Jim Campbell
Dec 25, 2007, 03:13 AM
No, its the fact that you go out and use a piece of hardware NEVER designed to do what you're attempting; it is NOT up to Apple to address issues which occur in products being used in a way which it was NEVER intended.

Reading comprehension not so good with you? What part of the problem is not with the Mini, it's with the MacBook are you struggling with*?

The fact remains that an Apple-supplied system update broke the wifi on MacBook - not just at home but, as I stated before, when I try to access wifi hotspots, which clearly demonstrates that the problem is not with the set-up of my home network.

10.4.10 doesn't fix this issue, 10.4.11 doesn't fix this issue, neither, apparently, does 10.5.0 or 10.5.1. All I said was that I hoped 10.5.2 does fix the problem because I'm presently forced to stick with 10.4.8.

Again, as I stated before, even this wouldn't be a problem were it not for the fact that Apple knew this issue existed and went ahead and changed the .Mac service so it only works properly with 10.4.10 or higher, meaning that I am now paying for a service I can't access away from home which somewhat defeats the point of it.

You're clearly trolling at this point, so I'm going to hope that I have explained the issue, and the reason for my disappointment with Apple on this occasion, in words of as few syllables as possible and leave it at that.

Cheers

Jim

* Leaving aside the part where I'm confused as to how enabling an Apple-created option in the Sharing Preferences constitutes using the machine in a way that Apple didn't intend.

rbhudelson
Dec 25, 2007, 11:00 AM
Reading comprehension not so good with you? What part of the problem is not with the Mini, it's with the MacBook are you struggling with*?

The fact remains that an Apple-supplied system update broke the wifi on MacBook - not just at home but, as I stated before, when I try to access wifi hotspots, which clearly demonstrates that the problem is not with the set-up of my home network.

10.4.10 doesn't fix this issue, 10.4.11 doesn't fix this issue, neither, apparently, does 10.5.0 or 10.5.1. All I said was that I hoped 10.5.2 does fix the problem because I'm presently forced to stick with 10.4.8.

Again, as I stated before, even this wouldn't be a problem were it not for the fact that Apple knew this issue existed and went ahead and changed the .Mac service so it only works properly with 10.4.10 or higher, meaning that I am now paying for a service I can't access away from home which somewhat defeats the point of it.

You're clearly trolling at this point, so I'm going to hope that I have explained the issue, and the reason for my disappointment with Apple on this occasion, in words of as few syllables as possible and leave it at that.

Cheers

Jim

* Leaving aside the part where I'm confused as to how enabling an Apple-created option in the Sharing Preferences constitutes using the machine in a way that Apple didn't intend.

Jim, not sure why folks are giving you a hard time about this. I'm assuming you have worked your way through Apple Care. I don't see anything that you are trying to do that shouldn't be working. I have moved all my machines over to leopard or I would try to duplicate what you are seeing. There have been issues of upgrading in place from certain versions of OS X to Leopard that will kill the wifi until you delete a file. This doesn't appear to be your issue. I would escalate inside AppleCare and they will take care of the problem.

Brad

Kar98
Dec 27, 2007, 08:19 PM
Two bugs stand out to me.....

1. Major one is Wifi drops in and out often for no reason. Really frustrating! When I look at the meter it says "scanning..."

2. This is small but I don't get the sound when I receive new mail. I get the indicator but no sound. Have no idea why. Perhaps I am the only one.


Absolutely not. Sometimes it pings, most often it doesn't. And the "can't browse any other computers on my network" bug is irritating as hell. Here it is almost 2008 and I am reverting to the good ole sneaker network!

BlackSmp
Dec 28, 2007, 10:23 AM
Wait a minute! Tell me, my eyes are not O.K.


NEVER ONLY USE ONE ACCOUNT ON A COMPUTER!

This applies to all OSes, be it Unix, Linux, Windows or Mac OS X. If you are really surfing the Web with an Admin account, then you are asking for serious trouble (all the security marketing hype aside).


Well, I've been surfing on the Web using XP for ages without trouble..

However, even if it is sound practice not to use a admin account, the installation should work with one account only and if it doesn't something is wrong.

--j

Concorde Rules
Dec 28, 2007, 02:01 PM
I've read page 1 and 8 and its just people moaning.

Leopard has been fine for me, the only ONLY problem is the sleep one, THATS IT!

Otherwise it hasn't crashed, locked or done anything untoward.

I've had 10.1, 10.2, 10.3 and 10.4 from launch and they have all been perfect.

So I dunno what you lot are moaning about, incompatible software causing these problems perhaps? Hmmmmmmm?
:apple: = :D:D:D:D

DiamondMac
Dec 28, 2007, 02:08 PM
So I dunno what you lot are moaning about, incompatible software causing these problems perhaps? Hmmmmmmm?
:apple: = :D:D:D:D

Not at all. Just a lot of lock-up's and freezes since switching to Leopard on both my iMac and MBP. Neither of which have much of anything outside a few iTunes songs and word documents.

I am happy with Leopard but the problems have increased 10x since switching to it. But, that is expected having gotten it when it first came out (well, at least I think so) so it is nothing that is really blowing my mind.

garybUK
Dec 28, 2007, 04:28 PM
i've had an occasional crash on leopard, nothing serious.

mostly yahoo messenger crashes when i've signed out/in again then try to do anything, but i blame Yahoo more than Apple for this.

10.5 was bad, especially for wifi, very flakey. 10.5.1 fixed that and it's running peachy now on x1 Macbook Pro (SR), x1 Powerbook G4 1.5, x1 Macbook (SR) and x1 Dual G5 1.8ghz

Concorde Rules
Dec 28, 2007, 05:44 PM
Not at all. Just a lot of lock-up's and freezes since switching to Leopard on both my iMac and MBP. Neither of which have much of anything outside a few iTunes songs and word documents.

I am happy with Leopard but the problems have increased 10x since switching to it. But, that is expected having gotten it when it first came out (well, at least I think so) so it is nothing that is really blowing my mind.

I don't get it tho. The hardware should just be as stable as mine and if you did a clean install like I did from the minute i got my MBP (ordered a week before leopard launch) and its fine.

*shrug* Still don't totally believe its 100% apples fault when most people are ok

DiamondMac
Dec 28, 2007, 06:52 PM
I don't get it tho. The hardware should just be as stable as mine and if you did a clean install like I did from the minute i got my MBP (ordered a week before leopard launch) and its fine.

*shrug* Still don't totally believe its 100% apples fault when most people are ok

If it were me, I would agree.

But obvious many others are having the same problems. High majority? No...but a big enough amount that something may be buggy.

aliquis-
Dec 29, 2007, 12:23 AM
Safari crashes so much more in 10.5.1... I hate it.So use Opera?

flyinmac
Dec 29, 2007, 12:29 AM
Safari crashes so much more in 10.5.1... I hate it.

I use Safari exclusively (and I use it a lot). I haven't had it crash on me. And, that's using it probably at least 8 hours a day, every day since Leopard came out (and before that, I used the previous version of Safari to the same extent).

aliquis-
Dec 29, 2007, 01:30 AM
64-bit capable processor a requirement for Java?

Well, there goes Java for the CoreDuos and G4's. Goodbye iMac and Mac Mini CoreDuos (and of course the MacBook and MacBook Pros). Now you'll need a Core2Duo or better.

Man, that was short. Who'd have thought it would be Java that would kill-off the 32-BIT systems?To make anything useful (ever tried Aperture on 128MB vram?) you need 256MB or more vram aswell so goodbye more or less all macs. Apple suck.

Atleast with a PC you _CAN_ get what you want.

Start saving your euros for a 64-bit machine, it's only a matter of time before 32-bit is on the dust heap.

(Same advice applies to Windows users, by the way....)Same advice for ALL computers.

Nothing wrong with a 32 bit machine if you can live with less than 4GB of ram. I wouldn't have bought a core machine thought, and I didn't either.

i3iz
Jan 7, 2008, 12:14 PM
Come on apple. Release the stinkin update already. Quit blaming adobe for the JPEG exif crashes in mail and quicklook/finder. Just fix the problem and release an update.

There should be an option to test the packs like developers can. Like check a beta test option in system prefs. By the time it gets to devs it is pretty polished.

Domofloge
Jan 10, 2008, 02:26 PM
I said My Leopard, meaning that I'm not personally desperate for 10.5.2, I'm by no means suggesting that there are no bugs at all...

I'm going to have to agree with Psycofreak on this one.. My version of Leopard really isn't that buggy at all. But one of my good friends already downgraded to Tiger because he was so disgusted with his Leopard. Its really stinks that so many people are having issues with it.

DiamondMac
Jan 10, 2008, 03:53 PM
I'm going to have to agree with Psycofreak on this one.. My version of Leopard really isn't that buggy at all. But one of my good friends already downgraded to Tiger because he was so disgusted with his Leopard. Its really stinks that so many people are having issues with it.

Agreed. Several friends of mine have Leopard and have yet to see a single problem with it. I am amazed when I visit them to hear them talk about no freezing issues, etc....their systems range from iMac's to MBP's as well (I have both)

Then again, a good amount of family/friends of mine have gotten Leopard and really are shocked with the amount of problems we have come across....whether it is slow load-up times for programs such as System Preferences, freezes on Safari, and iTunes bouncing and just not ever starting up.

Odd but coming on here and seeing so many complain about similar problems does make me feel better that others are seeing the same thing thus so is Apple.

Overall, still very happy I bought it

chris200x9
Jan 10, 2008, 04:12 PM
So what. 32 bit has been obsolete for years! My G5 is from 2003! Save some cash, go get a G5 or a new Core 2 Duo.




If 32 bit has been obsolete for years why did apple release computers with 32 bit hmmm...... I know what you'll say the laptops were g4 so they were only 32 bit anyway while this is true the imac had a g5 that they replaced with a core duo, which means apple deliberately BACKTRACKED. I own a cd macbook and if it stops being supported in like a year I'll be pissed :mad: and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

rbhudelson
Jan 11, 2008, 12:24 PM
I'm going to have to agree with Psycofreak on this one.. My version of Leopard really isn't that buggy at all. But one of my good friends already downgraded to Tiger because he was so disgusted with his Leopard. Its really stinks that so many people are having issues with it.

I have 4 Macs, Macbook Pro, Intel Imac, G4 Imac, Powerbook g4 all of which were upgraded to Leopard from Tiger. I don't have any problems with any of them - well, at least since the keyboard freeze was fixed for the macbook. I did the archive install route. I wonder if a lot of the problems folks are having stems from doing the simple upgrade instead of the archive/install route?

emotion
Jan 11, 2008, 12:41 PM
If 32 bit has been obsolete for years why did apple release computers with 32 bit hmmm...... I know what you'll say the laptops were g4 so they were only 32 bit anyway while this is true the imac had a g5 that they replaced with a core duo, which means apple deliberately BACKTRACKED. I own a cd macbook and if it stops being supported in like a year I'll be pissed :mad: and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Stop panicking. Honestly, Apple won't withdraw support. There is no conspiracy.

32 bit isn't obsolete either. Can you tell me what benefits 64 bit has given you? Support for addressing more memory? Like most people need more than 4GB....

btw. my three Leopard installs so far are wipe and start again installs. There is definitely flakiness in 10.5.1, especially with Mail.app. However Leopard is very usable though and I wouldn't even consider a downgrade at this stage.

chris200x9
Jan 12, 2008, 11:25 AM
^
I know, I'm not panicking I was just trying to point out that ckurowic's statement was not accurate and to be accurate it would mean a big conspiracy, for lack of a better word, that would hurt actually apple.

Paulos
Jan 15, 2008, 07:53 AM
10.5.2 going to be out this week or is it only new thin macbook air's coming out?

emotion
Jan 15, 2008, 07:58 AM
^
I know, I'm not panicking I was just trying to point out that ckurowic's statement was not accurate and to be accurate it would mean a big conspiracy, for lack of a better word, that would hurt actually apple.


Yes, apologies, my post was mis-directed to you not ckurowic.

As for 10.5.2 I'm expecting that soon.

Project
Jan 15, 2008, 08:01 AM
Hopefully this comes soon. I want that Stacks upgrade.

Iamtherealwoody
Jan 15, 2008, 05:54 PM
Ya where is it? Im wishing it brought the multi touch gestures to my C2D macbook.

psychofreak
Jan 15, 2008, 05:56 PM
Ya where is it? Im wishing it brought the multi touch gestures to my C2D macbook.

I'm really hoping for that too, but then again it did take a long time to get the older notebooks up to speed with the two-finger scrolling...