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MacRumors
Jan 16, 2008, 12:54 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Here are some details that have come to light as the day has rolled along.

iPhone/iPod Touch Location Technology
While some had speculated that Apple would simply be incorporating Google's recently announced location services (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/11/28/mobile-google-maps-to-offer-gps-like-positioning/) into the new software, Apple has actually used a hybrid technology that uses both Google's data (using cellular triangulation) and data from Skyhook Wireless (using a database of known Wi-Fi hotspot locations) to pinpoint the location. This enables the location feature to be used on the iPod touch, which cannot use Google's service due to lack of cellular capabilities, but can utilize Skyhook's Wi-Fi database.


iPod Touch Paid Upgrade
The $20 upgrade for the iPod touch software was met with a cool reception both by the keynote crowd and by MacRumors readers. While we have not received an official reason for the move, we remind users that only the iPhone and Apple TV are currently using Apple's "subscription revenue" accounting model. As such, Apple has explained that it can give software updates for those devices, when possible, for free. The iPod touch does not fall under this model, and therefore under Apple's reasoning, a major feature upgrade must incur a charge.

We have heard that all current iPod touch models already in the distribution channel without the new software have been immediately discounted by $20 to accommodate for the upgrade fee.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/01/16/todays-announcements-the-untold-story/)



NDLaHam
Jan 16, 2008, 12:58 AM
I think the 20 dollars is reasonable. I am not complaining. Even though some say those apps should have been their from the start, it is still a good deal and I am happy to pay for it if it helps the software developers build these apps. They are a business, they are supposed to make money. They arn't just gonna give out free stuff to all their customers just because they support them. A lot of the digg community was extremely mad about this it seemed. It's only 20 bucks guys.

Never been the first post either. Sweet.

gusapple
Jan 16, 2008, 12:58 AM
I am so glad that I can use the locate me tool! It is way helpful for getting around!

neven
Jan 16, 2008, 01:01 AM
Even though some say those apps should have been their from the start

If it was that much of a deal-breaker to anyone, then they shouldn't have bought the iPod Touch.

Many users won't even take advantage of the upgrade because they don't need those additional features. For those who need them, it's an entirely reasonable price.

aznkid25
Jan 16, 2008, 01:06 AM
So if I go to the Apple store this weekend to get the ipod touch, it should have the iphone apps on it. right?

Zwhaler
Jan 16, 2008, 01:09 AM
I think the upgrade should be free, because I've already paid 400$ for a top of the line product and I don't see why I should pay more to get something another equally expensive product gets for free.

Abstract
Jan 16, 2008, 01:12 AM
If you want that new Google thingamajig very soon, you need to pay $20 for it. However, these models are/should be discounted by $20, so you lose nothing.

However, iPod Touch models with the software already included will be in store shelves quite soon. This way, you don't need to go through the "hassle" of upgrading.

iBlue
Jan 16, 2008, 01:14 AM
I think the upgrade should be free, because I've already paid 400$ for a top of the line product and I don't see why I should pay more to get something another equally expensive product gets for free.

Do you think the word "should" means a damn thing to Apple? (Arrogant greedy twats that they are) Nope.

There's a lot of things that they should do but never will. Sad what's become of them.

ricosuave
Jan 16, 2008, 01:14 AM
The iPod touch does not fall under this model, and therefore under Apple's reasoning, a major feature upgrade must incur a charge.



So Macs are under the subscription model? Because they get constantly updated.

maestrokev
Jan 16, 2008, 01:15 AM
I was quite happy to pay the $20 for the upgrade. Didn't like jailbreaking my touch and the cat and mouse game with hacking. I believe Jobs was quite clear when the touch launched that it was an iPod first and not a smartphone.

With these new features it brings me that much closer to getting rid of my Windows Mobile smartphone. If only the iPhone was available worldwide I wouldn't have bought the touch.

If you're happy with your touch you don't have to upgrade, you bought it knowing it was an iPod. The hacking community has given people a sense of self-entitlement and self-righteousness.

admanimal
Jan 16, 2008, 01:17 AM
I was happy to pay $20 to get the extra features. If you were unhappy buying the iPod in the first place for $300 or $400 without these features, you shouldn't have purchased it and expected them to show up for free later on.

I don't see how this is any different than buying a new computer with iLife '07 and then a few months later having new computers include iLife '08 for free while everyone else has to pay for it.

coolfactor
Jan 16, 2008, 01:18 AM
The $20 upgrade fee only really hurts those that *just* bought an iPod touch. However, how long is "just"? A week? A month? The line needs to be drawn somewhere, and Apple chose to draw that line starting today. It's their business, and they don't owe their customers anything more than what they have delivered at the time of purchase. It's a simple transaction, and now they've chosen to enhance their product line while keeping it at the same price point. Any previous customers that want to upgrade their units to the same level should pay. That's not hard to figure out.

Rogzilla
Jan 16, 2008, 01:18 AM
I see it like updating to Leopard. If you already HAVE an iMac, you don't get the upgrade to Leopard for free. I have said this a bit but this is exactly what I expected: an update to give the touch more PDA like capabilities. It is even how much I thought it would be. I mean, it is a very reasonable price. They could be asking $40, $50, or MORE fore it.

I know first thing I did when I got home from work...update and upgrade!

TPALTony
Jan 16, 2008, 01:19 AM
So if I go to the Apple store this weekend to get the ipod touch, it should have the iphone apps on it. right?

If it does not, it will be 20 bucks cheaper, so you can then pay for the upgrade on iTunes and net out the same.

The rest of this post is general and not directed at aznkid25 in particular...

It amazes me how many people in various threads are hammering apple for charging for this upgrade. Can someone show me where the iPod Touch marketing materials EVER said this was an upgradeable general purpose computing device? When iPhone was introduced they SPECIFICALLY said it would be upgraded, and that the upgrades were free. When they launched iPod touch, they NEVER said anything like that. They related everything on it back to either "it's the touch version of what is on the current iPod, calendar that you can't edit, etc." OR that it was necessary to make the wireless work (Safari etc.) The benefit that you could then surf the web after using Safari to get onto the wireless network, was a bonus.

People are so unbelievably unreasonable these days. "It should have come with these apps in the first place." It didn't, you chose to buy it knowing there was no promise of them coming later for free. Get over it. Sheesh! I suppose you want a pony too right? :)

To be clear, I am not speaking from a position of "it hasn't happened to me yet" either. I stood in line on 6/29/07. I paid $600 for my iPhone. I was not irked when he cut the price. I shrugged my shoulders and said "was bound to happen, such is the life of an earlier adopter." They clearly laid out what I was getting and what is was going to cost, I liked what was on offer so I bought it.

Apple makes cool products, they are marketing geniuses, and their stuff is bleeding edge. Stands to reason that if you buy early on, you're paying a higher price.

be well

t

coolfactor
Jan 16, 2008, 01:21 AM
So Macs are under the subscription model? Because they get constantly updated.

The software updates include bug fixes and security enhancements. Rarely do they include new features. Apple's operating on a 12 to 18 month period between major updates to OS X, which you have to pay for.

The exception is software that is already free, such as iTunes.

TPALTony
Jan 16, 2008, 01:22 AM
So Macs are under the subscription model? Because they get constantly updated.

No they don't. The hardware is upgraded, but they don't run around giving existing owners free hardware upgrades.

Upgrades to Leopard fall under the bug fix category which means "making it do what we said it would do." That's not "technically, in accounting parlance" an upgrade.

When they launched Leopard, Tiger users had to pay for it. That they started shipping it on all new macs, well that was a change in specification for new purchases. Entirely different.

rendezvouscp
Jan 16, 2008, 01:23 AM
The $20 upgrade fee only really hurts those that *just* bought an iPod touch. However, how long is "just"? A week? A month? The line needs to be drawn somewhere, and Apple chose to draw that line starting today.

According to their retail policy (http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/salespolicies.html#topic-16), 14 calendar days.
-Chasen

espoir
Jan 16, 2008, 01:27 AM
Can anyone tell how updating of Touch is going to work?

Are there two versions let say 1.1.3. free and 1.1.3 Plus (with iPhone apps) at 20$... or there's only one 1.1.3 which you can get only by paying 20$...

This makes me uncomfortable - if any other update is gonna be paid - how about bug fixes? And what is more important how am I supposed to get these extra fitures if in my country there's no iTunes Store but iPod Touch is sold officially. How am I supposed to pay?

David G.
Jan 16, 2008, 01:27 AM
I too thought was extremely angry with :apple: today for not including thos updates for free. But then I had some sense knocked into me by some of the forum members here are realized the reasons I was being nonsensical. I have now upgraded to 1.1.3 and am currently awaiting my iPod touch to load my music back on it before I actually purchase the app package. Having a non jailbroken iPod just seems like the right thing to do now that the apps are officiallly available. Who's with me?

grappler
Jan 16, 2008, 01:32 AM
Wonder if the location feature will actively track you as you move, or if you need to keep hitting that "locate me" button in the lower left corner?

caliguy
Jan 16, 2008, 01:33 AM
The "Locate Me" feature doesn't work very well at all for me on my iPhone. I live just about an hour north of Los Angeles in Ventura, so it's not like I'm in the middle of nowhere. It locates me about 10 miles south of where I actually am.

brownieguy19
Jan 16, 2008, 01:34 AM
you have to keep pressing the locate me button. It is not "live gps"

grappler
Jan 16, 2008, 01:35 AM
The "Locate Me" feature doesn't work very well at all for me on my iPhone. I live just about an hour north of Los Angeles in Ventura, so it's not like I'm in the middle of nowhere. It locates me about 10 miles south of where I actually am.

wow... and I was concerned because it placed me half a block away!

brownieguy19
Jan 16, 2008, 01:35 AM
The "Locate Me" feature doesn't work very well at all for me on my iPhone. I live just about an hour north of Los Angeles in Ventura, so it's not like I'm in the middle of nowhere. It locates me about 10 miles south of where I actually am.

I live in Thousand Oaks and it has hit me on the nose every single time I have tried it.

Curtis72
Jan 16, 2008, 01:35 AM
I too thought was extremely angry with :apple: today for not including thos updates for free. But then I had some sense knocked into me by some of the forum members here are realized the reasons I was being nonsensical. I have now upgraded to 1.1.3 and am currently awaiting my iPod touch to load my music back on it before I actually purchase the app package. Having a non jailbroken iPod just seems like the right thing to do now that the apps are officiallly available. Who's with me?

You have too look at this as paying $29 dollars (or was it $19?) for the pro version of Quicktime. Also this is in line with what Apple charges for iPod games. $20/5 applications equals $4.

I don't have an iPod touch... not enough storage for me. I need at least 32GB. I actually what a iPhone but again... not enough storage and AT&T needs to have a cheaper plan for my tastes.

lizacolby1
Jan 16, 2008, 01:39 AM
Do you think the word "should" means a damn thing to Apple? (Arrogant greedy twats that they are) Nope.

There's a lot of things that they should do but never will. Sad what's become of them.

I'm not sure I know what you mean when you say "sad what's become of them." Is it sad that the OSX continues to be one of the most flexible and responsive (as well as stable) platforms in the market? Is their releasing a FREE upgrade to one of their hottest selling items (the iPhone) some kind of a sad development? Is the fact that you get help from qualified people in the local stores a sad development? What is sad?

I switched to Mac 5 years ago from PC (Gateway). Now THAT is sad what has become of them: downhill customer service (complete lack of it) and poor workmanship. What happened to Gateway is pretty similar to what has happened to most PC manufacturers. Sad.

maverick18x
Jan 16, 2008, 01:47 AM
I think the upgrade should be free, because I've already paid 400$ for a top of the line product and I don't see why I should pay more to get something another equally expensive product gets for free.

Equally expensive? Really? Because over the next two years I'm paying another $1,440 for the base iPhone plan. Around $240 of that subscription fee will go right back to Apple. In exchange, they're providing me with free software updates. I would be amazed if I got 12 of them over two years, but if I did they'd still cost me $20 a piece.

Stop whining that this is a paid upgrade. If you want the apps, then buy them. If you don't, then you have no reason to complain... your iPod didn't have those apps to begin with, and it was worth the money to you then.

PhysicsGuy
Jan 16, 2008, 01:50 AM
Why does everybody assume that $20 is fair??? I bought my iPod touch because I am on a college campus and can't afford the data plan the iPhone requires. Why does Apple consider my product differently? $20 means a lot to me. Not to mention that this iPod touch thing keeps screwing me over. No apps? $20 upgrade for capability it should have had from the beginning? Apple is ubiquitous in the academic environment, but they just refuse to show me any love. If only Apple had heard of Google's mantra - don't be evil!

To put it succinctly - why is the iPod touch being treated like a bastard sibling of the iPhone instead of the brother it really is??

thinkadrian
Jan 16, 2008, 01:51 AM
I bought a macbook två years ago and simply REFUSE to pay to get more RAM memory which comes pre-installed in the new ones!

/sarcasm

iBlue
Jan 16, 2008, 01:54 AM
I bought a macbook två years ago and simply REFUSE to pay to get more RAM memory which comes pre-installed in the new ones!

/sarcasm
not even close to the same thing and you know it. not to mention, that's HARDWARE you're speaking of. :rolleyes:



Don't know what's so tough to understand. They are indeed taking the piss charging for that little upgrade. While it may be worth it, it's still just pure greed on Apple's part, which is fast becoming what they're really all about.

trygve
Jan 16, 2008, 01:55 AM
I don't think 20$ is a major issue, its pocket money. But what I'm wondering about is: what do these new applications actually do? Can the email application send emails, or just recieve them? Apple omniously writes that mail "lets you view rich HTML email". And: do the notes application in any way sync it's information with my local mac? :confused:

David G.
Jan 16, 2008, 01:56 AM
I ike how the title of this article is "Today's MWSF 2008 Announcements: The Untold Story" but then says it was posted on Wednesday January 16, 2008 01:54 AM EST by longofest.:D
Anyways, thanks for all the great work you guys have done.:) We all really appreciate it.

GQB
Jan 16, 2008, 01:57 AM
I've had my touch since day one, and this was the best $20 I've ever spent.
The 5 apps absolutely kick ass.
I NEVER expected to get poor man's GPS on my touch.

maestrokev
Jan 16, 2008, 01:57 AM
Why does everybody assume that $20 is fair??? I bought my iPod touch because I am on a college campus and can't afford the data plan the iPhone requires. Why does Apple consider my product differently? $20 means a lot to me. Not to mention that this iPod touch thing keeps screwing me over. No apps? $20 upgrade for capability it should have had from the beginning? Apple is ubiquitous in the academic environment, but they just refuse to show me any love. If only Apple had heard of Google's mantra - don't be evil!

Since when was an iPod or iPhone required for college? If $20 means a lot to you then don't upgrade - you shouldn't have bought the iPod since you're stretching beyond your means. There are school children in developing countries who can't afford textbooks or laptops and you're crying about $20 for a luxury product.

I'm starting to believe Apple's mistake was offering all those educational discounts. This isn't your parent's basement, Apple like any corporation expects you to move out, get a job and pay the market rate.

GQB
Jan 16, 2008, 02:03 AM
The "Locate Me" feature doesn't work very well at all for me on my iPhone. I live just about an hour north of Los Angeles in Ventura, so it's not like I'm in the middle of nowhere. It locates me about 10 miles south of where I actually am.

On my touch it located me within about 50 feet, and in the far reaches of Marin county. ****** amazing.

kainjow
Jan 16, 2008, 02:05 AM
it's still just pure greed on Apple's part, which is fast becoming what they're really all about.

Corporations are supposed to be greedy. If you ever think they're doing something to just be nice, you're being fooled.

MadCow42
Jan 16, 2008, 02:06 AM
I'm a bit surprised at how accurately it nailed my location on the iTouch... the only writeup I saw said they used a "database of known WiFi hotspots", and I'm in the middle of a residential neighborhood. Does this mean someone has mapped my WiFi location?

MadCow.

iBlue
Jan 16, 2008, 02:11 AM
Corporations are supposed to be greedy. If you ever think they're doing something to just be nice, you're being fooled.
Sure, but it's becoming a bit too much of a kick in the teeth. They can still make a huge profit without being almost insulting to their customers, and without letting their quality control slip. I think anyone would be hard pressed to say Apple's quality is as good as it used to be. They're like that kid that was once ignored and finally becomes popular and turns into a complete prick.
It's becoming all about the shiny little yuppie devices with them and that irritates me... and I felt like being a rotten grump about it.

dAlen
Jan 16, 2008, 02:14 AM
you have to keep pressing the locate me button. It is not "live gps"
why not have live gps?

Just saw a GPS device for the first time. (I live in the middle of nowhere in the country of Hungary.) My mother-in-law has one.

She paid for the ipod touch looking device, and it plays music, shows photos, has live GPS that even shows her street (in the middle of nowhere) and no monthly charges.

This is cool as can be. Its like the ipod touch (you touch and scroll the map with your finger, etc.), but the ipod touch doesnt have live GPS

Anyone, seriously, know why? Is this something to far fetched for apple.
I mean I live in the middle of nowhere and this technology exist...so is it a political one. (there ties with ATT and google) or whats up?

Someone that knows about this (probably most of you) please enlighten me.

Peace

dAlen

Rogzilla
Jan 16, 2008, 02:22 AM
Why does everybody assume that $20 is fair??? I bought my iPod touch because I am on a college campus and can't afford the data plan the iPhone requires. Why does Apple consider my product differently? $20 means a lot to me. Not to mention that this iPod touch thing keeps screwing me over. No apps? $20 upgrade for capability it should have had from the beginning? Apple is ubiquitous in the academic environment, but they just refuse to show me any love. If only Apple had heard of Google's mantra - don't be evil!

To put it succinctly - why is the iPod touch being treated like a bastard sibling of the iPhone instead of the brother it really is??

If $20 is a lot for you....then...and follow me here...why did you buy an iPod touch? If you REALLY want an MP3 player, get a shuffle! If you NEED a video player, get a nano! It wasn't until I graduated a year and a half ago was I able to buy nice things! That is just college life.

And boy, people sure have a bizarre sense of evil! Genocide is evil! Poisoning dogs is evil! Charging $20 for software that you don't need (I didn't have anyway to get directions or check my email on the go whilst I was in college) isn't evil.

Now go study! If you have time to follow all this and post on forums, you aren't making good use of your time!

ogo
Jan 16, 2008, 02:31 AM
Apple is again getting too greedy. :mad:
Software updates should be free for at least of a period of one year after purchase. And software updates for fixing major product defficiencies should be free for whole product support lifecycle.
Apple's overgreediness will in long term again cost them big bucks. Apple seems to be good at repeating this in regular cycles of getting market share, then getting overgreedy, then loosing over competition, then getting smart again after being hit on the head, and so on ...

Ogo

adrian.oconnor
Jan 16, 2008, 02:33 AM
The comments by people who expect us all to be modern day mindless consumers are mis-guided and unreasonable. To say "you get exactly what you paid for at the time of sale" is to completely miss the point.

As a group of technically minded people, we are interested in using our technology and pushing it as far as possible (without breaking it, hopefully). We don't like to see our gadgets artificially restricted, and we have known all along that there was no technical reason that Mail and Notes (in particular) could not be on the iPod touch.

We jail break, chip and otherwise hack our gadgets because that is just what we do, and we always will. Even if the iPod touch had these apps from the start, jail break would still exist because we want to push it further still.

I think the reason that many people are dismayed by the $20 upgrade ($25 in the UK) is that this is a bit sneaky and a bit Microsoft-ish. Microsoft are in the business of releasing important software upgrades and leaving old versions to fester in the hope that you spend more cash. Apple seem to be doing more of that too.

Just to push the thought a bit further, in my grandparents' day everything that you bought was an opportunity to 'hack' and modify. Anything that broke was invariably repaired in a 'hackerish' manner, and anything that could be improved upon almost certainly was. That's just the way life is.

Let's hope the SDK rocks. If Apple get that right, it'll change everything.

Loge
Jan 16, 2008, 02:34 AM
The software updates include bug fixes and security enhancements. Rarely do they include new features. Apple's operating on a 12 to 18 month period between major updates to OS X, which you have to pay for.

The exception is software that is already free, such as iTunes.

OK, so why is iTunes treated differently, then? New versions come out from time to time with new features (yesterday, :rolleyes:), but existing Mac owners aren't being asked to pay for it.

Note, I'm not moaning about the $20, looks good value for what it is, just trying to understand where the distinction is.

g-7
Jan 16, 2008, 02:35 AM
Interesting question is, HOW can I buy the new iPod Touch software?
There is no iTunes Store in Poland. In fact there are many countries
iTunes Store does not support (a kind of "No Blacks Allowed" attitude).
I wonder if 1.1.3 is going to be distributed on CDs here? ;)

dAlen
Jan 16, 2008, 02:36 AM
If $20 is a lot for you....then...and follow me here...why did you buy an iPod touch?

Its all about what your used to. For example:
Having used Apple products my whole grown up life I am used to the following:

1) Free software updates except for major revisions.
1a) Seeing that Leopard runs on all their hardware (ipod touch & phone) all updates would appear to be free to the software. Applications do cost. It depends on your perception. Is it an application or an update to the core software of that device itself?
2) iLife was free (trying to make an example so hold on)
When idvd got to big, they said its free but pay for the disk. Now its pay for the programs.
3) When they said in the keynote that the software update for the iphone would be free...the very use of that gave me a flash back of the iLife days and I knew that potentially they would charge one day for the service.
3a) That one day came with the very next update the ipod Touch.

At the end, its just nice to be able to clarify things and no where you stand with the vendor. What to expect for cost and non cost. Thats all really.

Also I made a post above about GPS...really curious to hear some feedback on that.

Peace

dAlen

aswitcher
Jan 16, 2008, 02:37 AM
The Apps are nice. Would have been nice to have the free after only 4 months since release. I am not sure how they came to the $20 figure.

sorted hope they through in some other stuff later at no cost for those who paid for this update

dAlen
Jan 16, 2008, 02:45 AM
The Apps are nice. Would have been nice to have the free after only 4 months since release. I am not sure how they came to the $20 figure.


There not either but they are hoping you pay for it. ;)
With iLife it was easy when they went from free to pay.

"Oh its cost of CD for that large iDVD" - Then later "its just because its so darn cool and such a good deal at this price!" - well not that good of a deal compared to when it was free.

Yes apple is changing, but it has been like that. Free then pay.
Free then pay.

One day we will pay for our air. - oh macbook air. :)
Seriously, it is funny as with things like the movie rentals, one day you will have adds thrown in your movies...right at a climatic point...and then you one day will have to pay for 2 hours of adds, then some more to see a peak of a movie...and one day...well, we know what happens then. The universe explodes from the stupidity and greed. heheh

Peace

dAlen

mattydodgy
Jan 16, 2008, 02:46 AM
Locate me tool - Great feature, but it would have been a lot helpful if it were on my iPhone like a month ago! I spent christmas in New York, and I got totally lost at one point in the upper east side, and it took me forever to find out where I was... So I had to improvise... (Long story).

Multiple Text Messaging - How handy would this have been for Christmas day and New Years, the amount of times that I had to type the same message over and over again, wishing all of my friends and family a merry christmas... My fingers got so tired... With multiple texts, it would have been so much easier!

I guess these features would come in handy this year and future years to come right?

siurpeeman
Jan 16, 2008, 02:47 AM
OK, so why is iTunes treated differently, then? New versions come out from time to time with new features (yesterday, :rolleyes:), but existing Mac owners aren't being asked to pay for it.

Note, I'm not moaning about the $20, looks good value for what it is, just trying to understand where the distinction is.

it makes plenty of sense to distribute itunes for free, as it generates money from the itunes store. didn't apple announce selling their 4 billionth song from itunes today? the number would not have been nearly that high if people were required to buy itunes software.

weckart
Jan 16, 2008, 02:49 AM
I too thought was extremely angry with :apple: today for not including thos updates for free. But then I had some sense knocked into me by some of the forum members here are realized the reasons I was being nonsensical. ....... Who's with me?

You drank the Kool-Aid and now you're babbling. Don't join the sheeple.

People who knew what Apple truly is noted from day one that these apps were needlessly missing from the iPod Touch and we knew that Apple would penny-pinch for these later. No surprise that this is what has happened.

Loge
Jan 16, 2008, 02:56 AM
it makes plenty of sense to distribute itunes for free, as it generates money from the itunes store. didn't apple announce selling their 4 billionth song from itunes today? the number would not have been nearly that high if people were required to buy itunes software.

Sorry, I wasn't being clear. I can see it can make sense to distribute software for free, but the suggestion has been that Apple had no choice about making software for the touch available for free.

When the SDK comes, I expect some will develop free software and others will develop commercial software. Will it then be OK for Apple to provide software free if they choose to do so?

JohnHawkins
Jan 16, 2008, 03:00 AM
OK, so why is iTunes treated differently, then? New versions come out from time to time with new features (yesterday, :rolleyes:), but existing Mac owners aren't being asked to pay for it.

Note, I'm not moaning about the $20, looks good value for what it is, just trying to understand where the distinction is.
shhh or else they will catch on ;)

lavem
Jan 16, 2008, 03:02 AM
This may have already been mentioned but what if you are constantly buying songs from the iTunes store? I've purchased about the 350+ songs. I know it isn't a constant revenue stream for them but it should count for something. I don't like being taken for granted.

I don't see the value in this software so I'm not buying it. It would have been a nice gesture to get it for free. I just think apple are being a bit tight.

New touches shouldn't come with the extra software either. When you buy a new copy of OSX you don't get the iLife apps do you?

gifford
Jan 16, 2008, 03:03 AM
Do you think the word "should" means a damn thing to Apple? (Arrogant greedy twats that they are) Nope.

There's a lot of things that they should do but never will. Sad what's become of them.

Hey? They could be a lot worse!

In-fact in comparison so almost any other company I think the total opposite.
95% of people who think this about apple are normally mistaking the policies of the studios or music labels for those of apples.
I read every day how 'apple is a bastard cos they xxxxxxxxxxx' , when I know for sure that they are taking the flak for the greed of others.

nomad01
Jan 16, 2008, 03:07 AM
Don't know what's so tough to understand. They are indeed taking the piss charging for that little upgrade. While it may be worth it, it's still just pure greed on Apple's part, which is fast becoming what they're really all about.

When Apple release new games for the iPod, nobody expects to get them free.

Yesterday, Apple released new apps for an iPod (touch) so what's the difference?

I think the big difference is that iPhone users are getting the same thing for free.

aLoC
Jan 16, 2008, 03:09 AM
If it was just to get around a legal requirement, surely they would charge some token amount, like $1.

No, they want people to think of iPod upgrades as similar to OS X upgrades and be prepared to pay for them.

Cloudane
Jan 16, 2008, 03:12 AM
I thought it was a bit cheeky to charge for features that should've been included in the first place.

Then again, you're unlocking features that weren't there before on a device that doesn't make them a lot of money (and detracts from iPhone sales). Right from the beginning I've thought that the Touch was created grudgingly in response to pestering/rumours, and never really fit in with their business model. And £12 is hardly going to break the bank anyway.

At the end of the day I just paid the money, did the upgrade and moved on with my life.

samh004
Jan 16, 2008, 03:13 AM
Interestingly that new wifi-mapping feature found my location in Hong Kong. I'm using only an iPod touch and it pin-pointed me pretty darn well, so I am very impressed with the feature and not at all upset about it's cost. Well worth it. I just wonder if it'll be as good in Australia...

When Apple release new games for the iPod, nobody expects to get them free.

Yesterday, Apple released new apps for an iPod (touch) so what's the difference?

I think the big difference is that iPhone users are getting the same thing for free.

They (iPhone users) always had them as part of the package, they're not getting them for free, they paid for them when they bought the iPhone. The iPod touch didn't come with a camera, or bluetooth, or a phone, because it's a different device and to differentiate it even more it didn't come with a few applications.

Now, probably due to obvious pirate use of the iPhone apps, they've had to make some changes. I'd imagine a big reason is that with both devices now having the same applications, there'll be less of a need to jailbreak by some users, thereby regaining some security on the device.

The fee is small, they're not going to or trying to make money on it, but they're saying that these features weren't there when you bought an iPod touch and they're only here now because your pushing so hard for them.

aswitcher
Jan 16, 2008, 03:15 AM
Maybe they could give all us iPod touch upgraders some free game credit when they finally get games

smurfjammer
Jan 16, 2008, 03:16 AM
This may have already been mentioned but what if you are constantly buying songs from the iTunes store? I've purchased about the 350+ songs. I know it isn't a constant revenue stream for them but it should count for something. I don't like being taken for granted.

I don't see the value in this software so I'm not buying it. It would have been a nice gesture to get it for free. I just think apple are being a bit tight.

New touches shouldn't come with the extra software either. When you buy a new copy of OSX you don't get the iLife apps do you?

But when you buy a new iPod Touch you're buying HARDWARE not software, same as you bought a new mac you would get the latest OS and bundle applications (iLife)
Saying that the current updated iPod Touches shouldn't come with the new applications, is like current Mac's shouldn't come with OS 10.5 because they originally came out with OS 10.4

codedifferent
Jan 16, 2008, 03:24 AM
In my opinion the Location Based Service feature which is delivered with the 20$ upgrade is really worth it. Steve Jobs showed the LBS integrated in Maps in his keynote. Apple cooperates with Skyhook Wireless to realize a Location service by triangulating the beacon signals of surrounding WiFi networks which are known to Skyhook Wireless.

Hopefully Apple will enable app developers and web developers to use the Location service also when they release the iPhone SDK.

For all of you who want to check the functionality of that location service on a Mac ... Skyhook just released a Firefox toolbar plugin for Mac OS X called Loki (http://www.codedifferent.com/2008/01/16/skyhook-wireless-just-released-the-loki-20-firefox-toolbar-for-mac-os-x/).

willdenow
Jan 16, 2008, 03:27 AM
How many times is Apple going to milk this cow? To all those Apple shills who told me that my iPod Touch lacking many of the applications found on the iPhone for technical reasons - phooey on you! Their availability now proves that their inclusion was always feasible. Picking my pocket for the privilege of adding functionality that could and should have been there to begin with is despicable. Didn't you guys learn from your iPhone fiasco. This combined with the seriously overpriced and underpowered MacBook Thin only reinforces my attitude regarding Apple. It's all about the Benjamins, customer satisfaction and allegiance be damned. It's simple greed. For Christ-sakes, you guys only pulled it out of the toilet ten years ago, do you seriously want to go there again? If you keep treating customers with Microsoft high handedness, you'll be back there again! Dieux et Mon Droit, doesn't even work for the Queen of England anymore, it certainly doesn't for you, Mr. Jobs.

willdenow
Jan 16, 2008, 03:32 AM
I bought a macbook två years ago and simply REFUSE to pay to get more RAM memory which comes pre-installed in the new ones!

/sarcasm

Ha, ha, except for the fact that Apple will rip you a new one to the tune of 3 times market rate for additional RAM. Can't see that you got much to be pleased about.

/sacasm back at ya/

maestrokev
Jan 16, 2008, 03:36 AM
How many times is Apple going to milk this cow? To all those Apple shills who told me that my iPod Touch lacking many of the applications found on the iPhone for technical reasons - phooey on you! Their availability now proves that their inclusion was always feasible. Picking my pocket for the privilege of adding functionality that could and should have been there to begin with is despicable. Didn't you guys learn from your iPhone fiasco. This combined with the seriously overpriced and underpowered MacBook Thin only reinforces my attitude regarding Apple. It's all about the Benjamins, customer satisfaction and allegiance be damned. It's simple greed. For Christ-sakes, you guys only pulled it out of the toilet ten years ago, do you seriously want to go there again? If you keep treating customers with Microsoft high handedness, you'll be back there again! Dieux et Mon Droit, doesn't even work for the Queen of England anymore, it certainly doesn't for you, Mr. Jobs.

So you bought an iPod touch even though it was lacking features you wanted? Was anyone pointing a gun to your head? What does this say about your intelligence? No product that I've purchased in my life has been perfect, there's always something I wish it had, but I was happy enough that I paid for it. You don't like a product the way it's being sold, keep waiting and waiting until it's perfect! Get over yourself.

beate
Jan 16, 2008, 03:36 AM
This may have already been mentioned but what if you are constantly buying songs from the iTunes store? I've purchased about the 350+ songs. I know it isn't a constant revenue stream for them but it should count for something. I don't like being taken for granted.


I do Royalties for a couple of record companies. They get most of the revenue. In my estimation, Apple keeps very little for all the storing, cataloging, admin, selling/invoicing/collecting & accounting to the record companies.

lavem
Jan 16, 2008, 03:40 AM
But when you buy a new iPod Touch you're buying HARDWARE not software, same as you bought a new mac you would get the latest OS and bundle applications (iLife)
Saying that the current updated iPod Touches shouldn't come with the new applications, is like current Mac's shouldn't come with OS 10.5 because they originally came out with OS 10.4

I did buy the HARDWARE.

nomad01
Jan 16, 2008, 03:43 AM
Ha, ha, except for the fact that Apple will rip you a new one to the tune of 3 times market rate for additional RAM. Can't see that you got much to be pleased about.

/sacasm back at ya/

That's not really sarcasm though is it now?

You don't have to buy the RAM from Apple. You don't have to buy new applications for your iPod.

Will you be complaining that Apple aren't giving you free games for your iPod when they get released too?

Dale Sorel
Jan 16, 2008, 03:43 AM
I just bought a Touch on January 1, and knew I'd be within the 14 day return period when Macworld hit. I just got off the phone with an Apple rep who set me up so I will get a full credit for the new software.

smurfjammer
Jan 16, 2008, 03:50 AM
I did buy the HARDWARE.

Yes and got what was advertised at the time, there was no stocks, maps, mail etc. included and now they have updated the core OS to contain the new applications or the option to buy them.
If you bought an iMac with OS 10.4 months before OS 10.5 came out, you don't expect get OS 10.5 for free - you have to pay for it.

iEdd
Jan 16, 2008, 03:58 AM
Sigh, there will always be whingers. Just like the $2 (or was it $1?) 802.11n upgrade. Sure, this isn't as pathetic as that, but jesus christ. You iPod touch is the same as it was yesterday, but today you can choose to upgrade it for a price. That is only a positive thing. Sometimes I think the whingers would rather be left with a device that couldn't be upgraded at all. :rolleyes:
Yes and got what was advertised at the time, there was no stocks, maps, mail etc. included and now they have updated the core OS to contain the new applications or the option to buy them.
If you bought an iMac with OS 10.4 months before OS 10.5 came out, you don't expect get OS 10.5 for free - you have to pay for it.

Couldn't agree more. Some people just expect a free lunch all the time and don't realise that it takes work to develop these apps. From what I have heard, they are well worth the small cost.

Music_Producer
Jan 16, 2008, 04:02 AM
I think the upgrade should be free, because I've already paid 400$ for a top of the line product and I don't see why I should pay more to get something another equally expensive product gets for free.

Yeah, you would think that after paying British Airways over $9500 for a first class ticket.. I would get a $50 baggage allowance for free? :eek:

Sheesh. I am sick of people complaining all the time.. I don't know if it's just the US but I see a trend of consumers whining day and night. First, they want a $50 airline ticket.. won't pay more. Then they complain if the on board food is not free!

Bonte
Jan 16, 2008, 04:27 AM
why not have live gps?

Just saw a GPS device for the first time. (I live in the middle of nowhere in the country of Hungary.) My mother-in-law has one.

She paid for the ipod touch looking device, and it plays music, shows photos, has live GPS that even shows her street (in the middle of nowhere) and no monthly charges.

This is cool as can be. Its like the ipod touch (you touch and scroll the map with your finger, etc.), but the ipod touch doesnt have live GPS

Anyone, seriously, know why? Is this something to far fetched for apple.
I mean I live in the middle of nowhere and this technology exist...so is it a political one. (there ties with ATT and google) or whats up?

Someone that knows about this (probably most of you) please enlighten me.

Peace

dAlen

Most of the GPS devices these day's have a touch interface with music, photo's and some also movies. Most of them on the other hand are to big to carry around a lot, don't have exelent webbrowsing, no PDA functionality, no usable onscreen keyboard, no mail an not to great in battery-life.

Soon there will be extra 3P apps and the the full power of the iPhone and touch will be unleashed, pricing for extra software will probably be around $5 making it the cheapest PDA, game handheld and smartphone in the world. :)

espoir
Jan 16, 2008, 04:28 AM
Guys - you forget that the 20$ update is the problem only for those who already have the device.

Why new users of the same product (!!!!) should get it bundled and others not?
It's not iPod Touch 2 or something - but for some of us it should apply some extra charges. WHY?

teme
Jan 16, 2008, 04:28 AM
If these new applications would be an extra features, it would be ok to charge for them. However, I think they are basic features because they are included to all new iPod Touches.

So basically, if Apple wouldn't include these apps to any iPods and all customers would have to buy them separately, charging for them would be ok. However, Apple says this is "January Software Upgrade" and charges for it, and that is the fact I don't accept.

If Apple has to charge for new features because some law, I think the price would be lower. Apple is just greedy and they have decided that "hey, we could get more money if we don't give these updates freely".

espoir
Jan 16, 2008, 04:34 AM
Don't forget about Apple TV

We have many new fitures AT NO CHARGE for both new and existing customers... But there are something really new!

And in iPod Touch - there was nothing developped - all thoses fitures have been thrown away and now Apple is just putting them back!

Nym
Jan 16, 2008, 04:38 AM
I guess we all can understand why this is strange.

When I bought my iPod Nano (1st Gen) if I had to pay 20$ to upgrade the software I would go crazy at Apple, I personally think they should have given the new update away to the iPod Touch users, not because they have the obligation to, but to try and make their (so needed) loyal fan base happy and feeling that they are sharing the companie's recent BOOM.

BTW, just an example: Sony doesn't charge for PSP Firmware Updates, which also adds new features to the device (Skype, Web Browser, RSS, etc...) and Sony is like..., greedy! Same thing for a lot of other tech products that I'm not going to list because you know them already.

This and the pricing that Apple has decided basically for all the products announced yesterday.. I think they are going in the opposite way now. They are proving nay-sayers that Apple's products really are overpriced (MacBook Air) and stickin it to our faces :)

I don't know but.. as Apple keeps growing and growing... I feel like the old Apple mindset is dying.. even the Apple TV Update I was like "Jesus!" :eek:

I'm just being real. If it was something related to Microsoft asking for a 20$ software update I would be saying the exact same thing.

My personal view is that, companies may be there to make profit but.. they can at least TRY and fool me to think that they actually care, and that... makes me love or hate a brand, nothing more, nothing less.

Tyrannosaurs
Jan 16, 2008, 04:43 AM
Don't forget about Apple TV
And in iPod Touch - there was nothing developped - all thoses fitures have been thrown away and now Apple is just putting them back!
there was nothing developed?

did these applications spring fully formed from nothing?

they were developed for the iPhone and ported to the iPod Touch, but Apple paid out to develop them in the first place so are entitled to try and make money from them.

iWork '08 and final cut existed before the MacBookAir. by your logic it cost nothing to develop. should they give them away with the MacBookAir?

i got iLife '07 with my mac 8 months ago. should i automatically be entitled to iLife '08 just because they've upgraded it?

do you also get annoyed when game console manufacturers release new games for consoles and then have the bloody nerve to charge for them?

you bought something. if it doesn't do what was claimed when you bought it (hello Airport Extreme) then you have a valid argument, but you don't have an automatic right to anything new that is produced for that platform.

you have the right to be annoyed and disappointed with apple but not much beyond that.

don't get me wrong, i think apple should give it away to engender loyalty and encourage early adoption, or if there is some legal reason then at least make it very cheap (c. $5), but i don't think they're immoral or evil for not doing so.

massib80
Jan 16, 2008, 04:46 AM
to ALL that ones that say they are HAPPY to pay 20 bucks.... eih dudes!!! I can apy for new iLife, or new OS... but that iTouch aps are "cutted and paste" from iPhone... Apple doesn't spent a cent for it... so why ask this dirty mony???
I'm totally disappointed! Anyway... my unlocked iPod Touch just have everything :D

massib80
Jan 16, 2008, 04:49 AM
there was nothing developed?

did these applications spring fully formed from nothing?

they were developed for the iPhone and ported to the iPod Touch, but Apple paid out to develop them in the first place so are entitled to try and make money from them.

iWork '08 and final cut existed before the MacBookAir. by your logic it cost nothing to develop. should they give them away with the MacBookAir?

i got iLife '07 with my mac 8 months ago. should i automatically be entitled to iLife '08 just because they've upgraded it?

do you also get annoyed when game console manufacturers release new games for consoles and then have the bloody nerve to charge for them?

you bought something. if it doesn't do what was claimed when you bought it (hello Airport Extreme) then you have a valid argument, but you don't have an automatic right to anything new that is produced for that platform.

you have the right to be annoyed and disappointed with apple but not much beyond that.

don't get me wrong, i think apple should give it away to engender loyalty and encourage early adoption, or if there is some legal reason then at least make it very cheap (c. $5), but i don't think they're immoral or evil for not doing so.

iLife 08 is a new DELOPMENT from iLife 07, notes.app for iPhone is cutted and pasted on iPod Touch... so YEAH! they have to give to you FOR FREE!

Tyrannosaurs
Jan 16, 2008, 04:52 AM
iLife 08 is a new DELOPMENT from iLife 07, notes.app for iPhone is cutted and pasted on iPod Touch... so YEAH! they have to give to you FOR FREE!
so MacBookAir users should be entitled to iWork and Final Cut for free?

after all by your logic (and i use the word losely), they existed for all the other macs, it's really just being cut and pasted on to the MacBookAir.

Cloudane
Jan 16, 2008, 04:55 AM
Could have been worse guys, they could've refused the update altogether and said you must buy an iPod Touch 2.0 (maybe with some excuse like 24-32MB models and a tweak to the styling)

The ATV is different. It makes them a lot of money, and customers who buy those are favourable customers... whilst those of us who buy the Touch wanted a cheap iPhone without the phone, much to Apple's disgust :p

bobrik
Jan 16, 2008, 04:56 AM
I just wonder ... why did Apple invite European media to watch the keynote live in London? I thought this was because there would be some Europe-specific announcement, like EU-wide iTunes (or even Apple) Store, but there was nothing (I don't believe "In defense of my country" song was the reason :). Was it just "the more watch it, the better for Apple"?

Anyone any ideas, or new information?

massib80
Jan 16, 2008, 04:59 AM
Yes and got what was advertised at the time, there was no stocks, maps, mail etc. included and now they have updated the core OS to contain the new applications or the option to buy them.
If you bought an iMac with OS 10.4 months before OS 10.5 came out, you don't expect get OS 10.5 for free - you have to pay for it.

if you take the iPhone apps the dot APP files and you PASTE IT in the Applications folder of the iPod Touch... they're working so... why I need to pay 20$? to don't install an SSH client on my computer and to Apple-C Apple-V ?
We are not speacking about new OS, new iLife... but about CUT AND PASTE!!!! DAMN!

so MacBookAir users should be entitled to iWork and Final Cut for free?

after all by your logic (and i use the word losely), they existed for all the other macs, it's really just being cut and pasted on to the MacBookAir.

No iWork and FinalCut are optional software! But... they are getting Leopard for free and iLife 08 for free...

Tyrannosaurs
Jan 16, 2008, 05:00 AM
if you take the iPhone apps the dot APP files and you PASTE IT in the Applications folder of the iPod Touch... they're working so... why I need to pay 20$? to don't install an SSH client on my computer and to Apple-C Apple-V ?

how about because you have no license for those applications?

i could cut and paste iWork on to my Mac but that doesn't mean i have the right to do so.

No iWork and FinalCut are optional software! But... they are getting Leopard for free and iLife 08 for free...
and if you own an ipod touch notes, mail, maps etc. are optional software.

you didn't buy them so why do you have the right to them?

myeggsareboiled
Jan 16, 2008, 05:07 AM
I just wonder ... why did Apple invite European media to watch the keynote live in London? I thought this was because there would be some Europe-specific announcement, like EU-wide iTunes (or even Apple) Store, but there was nothing (I don't believe "In defense of my country" song was the reason :). Was it just "the more watch it, the better for Apple"?

Anyone any ideas, or new information?

I was curious about that one myself. I was thinking there would be either a Europe specific announcement, or a release of something huge. For all its funkiness, I wouldn't class the Air as something major. Just a nice skinny laptop. I was sorely disappointed. the only mention we got was international itunes movie rentals will not be available yet........

Tyrannosaurs
Jan 16, 2008, 05:11 AM
the only mention we got was international itunes movie rentals will not be available yet........
maybe they're close with the international itunes rentals and thought they'd be ready to annouce it, only to have it fall through at the last minute?

or possibly it's just a less US centric approach. here in the UK apple are gaining momentum off the back of the iPod (as they are everywhere) and perhaps they just want to acknowledge that Europe is an important market?

Mackan
Jan 16, 2008, 05:39 AM
So, if the iPod touch today ships with the new firmware and applications, the retail price should be increased 20$ for new buyers, right? Or why should we who own it already pay for the extra apps if the new buyers get it for free? Or did I missunderstand something...

thequicksilver
Jan 16, 2008, 05:46 AM
I don't have an iPod touch, so this doesn't really affect me. But:

If I did have one, I would have issues paying money for an update for previously existing iPhone apps such as Mail, Stocks, and Weather that Apple already had working on the iPhone and omitted for their own reasons. It is not the consumer's fault that these were not on the stock touch, and the consumer should not be made to pay for it.

I'd have no issue paying for brand new features, however, such as the self-location on Maps.

Breckenridge
Jan 16, 2008, 05:47 AM
iPhone/iPod Touch Location Technology doesn't work in our little town, when the iPhone tries to determine my location it draws a huge circle that includes our little Colorado ski town, as well as, a neighboring town.

Still cannot edit/copy/paste, still cannot sync multiple calendars with leopard's iCal.app, no video capture, no flash support, no true gps = no good and I also need a battery replacement of which apple told me they will do it for free but I have to stay without my phone for about a week or so!!!!!

The iPhone is becoming, at least to me, more of a shinny gadget than a practical smart phone. I cannot even access our company's website with the iphone since the idiot who designed the menu and login interfaces used flash.

Droidworx
Jan 16, 2008, 05:49 AM
Apple is again getting too greedy. :mad:
Software updates should be free for at least of a period of one year after purchase. And software updates for fixing major product defficiencies should be free for whole product support lifecycle.
Apple's overgreediness will in long term again cost them big bucks. Apple seems to be good at repeating this in regular cycles of getting market share, then getting overgreedy, then loosing over competition, then getting smart again after being hit on the head, and so on ...

Ogo

I cannot believe this, this isn't an upgrade, it is applications you can add to the touch. Do you think for a second that the apps published with the SDK will be free? The iPod Touch is just an mp3 player just like the Nano or the Classic. You should feel fortunate that it is expandable and that there are developers working on new applications for the device.

Google wrote the application, why shouldn't they be compensated for their time and development the same as any other software developer.

Just be glad you do have a iTouch that is expandable. Apple could have launched the iTouch II and included these features in that and left existing users in the dust....

IMHO, these applications are being developed now for the iTouch because of the iPhone's existence. if it weren't for the iPhone, there would be no iTouch to begin with.

billystlyes
Jan 16, 2008, 05:52 AM
The ATV is different. It makes them a lot of money, and customers who buy those are favourable customers... whilst those of us who buy the Touch wanted a cheap iPhone without the phone, much to Apple's disgust :p

The ATV is not different. And it doesn't make them a lot of money. It's loser device that will discontinued by next year. Take 3!

nomad01
Jan 16, 2008, 05:56 AM
If I did have one, I would have issues paying money for an update for previously existing iPhone apps such as Mail, Stocks, and Weather that Apple already had working on the iPhone and omitted for their own reasons. It is not the consumer's fault that these were not on the stock touch, and the consumer should not be made to pay for it.

Fair enough but the way I see it is that the Touch was never advertised with these functions and nobody ever said it would have them.

bobrik
Jan 16, 2008, 05:57 AM
I cannot even access our company's website with the iphone since the idiot who designed the menu and login interfaces used flash.

someone who uses flash for this should be fired instantly. I really mean, really instantly - right now.

GSMiller
Jan 16, 2008, 05:57 AM
Wow...As if paying an arm and a leg and being locked into the AT&T network wasn't enough, you have to pay for software upgrades too...

Cheffy Dave
Jan 16, 2008, 05:58 AM
:(after 3 tries and as many charges to my card, no upgrade. WTF apple. Anybody else have to report a "problem"?:confused:

Tyrannosaurs
Jan 16, 2008, 06:18 AM
Wow...As if paying an arm and a leg and being locked into the AT&T network wasn't enough, you have to pay for software upgrades too...

no, this relates to the iPod Touch. if you signed a contract with AT&T for your iPod touch then being taken for $20 for a software upgrade is the least of your worries.

stockcerts
Jan 16, 2008, 06:22 AM
I bought my Ipod Touch yesterday afternoon and I still had to pay for the $20- software upgrade. I was surprised by this. I called the Apple Store and they said had I purchased it there they would have reduced the price of the Ipod by $20- to compensate for the upgrade.

I think ITunes should have recognized that I was registering a new device and it should not have charged me. I won't complain too much as it was just $20-, but I wasn't happy about it.

NC MacGuy
Jan 16, 2008, 06:22 AM
So if I go to the Apple store this weekend to get the ipod touch, it should have the iphone apps on it. right?

Probably not:
We have heard that all current iPod touch models already in the distribution channel without the new software have been immediately discounted by $20 to accommodate for the upgrade fee.

VaDor
Jan 16, 2008, 06:24 AM
So Macs are under the subscription model? Because they get constantly updated.

Not the Mac but rather the Mac OS X that you bought!

stockcerts
Jan 16, 2008, 06:32 AM
Probably not:
We have heard that all current iPod touch models already in the distribution channel without the new software have been immediately discounted by $20 to accommodate for the upgrade fee.

They are only discounted if you buy them from the Apple Store. I bought mine at Costco yesterday and had to pay the $20-. It wasn't a lot of money, but I wasn't pleased by this.

willdenow
Jan 16, 2008, 06:32 AM
whole lot of cool-aid drinking here folks. i used to wonder how jim jones could get 1100 adults to agree to go belly up in the jungle. after reading the mac fanboi posts the last couple of years, i don't anymore.

Tyrannosaurs
Jan 16, 2008, 06:32 AM
Not the Mac but rather the Mac OS X that you bought!
There also seems to be some difference between fixes (including security patches) and enhancements or new functionality.

These new apps fall firmly into the new functionality category. Most patches to the OS are fixes and don't provide anything new (10.5.1 certainly didn't). Even something like the change to stacks mooted for 10.5.2 could be seen as fixing it based on what was demo-ed/promised.

Hattig
Jan 16, 2008, 06:34 AM
if you take the iPhone apps the dot APP files and you PASTE IT in the Applications folder of the iPod Touch... they're working so... why I need to pay 20$? to don't install an SSH client on my computer and to Apple-C Apple-V ?
We are not speacking about new OS, new iLife... but about CUT AND PASTE!!!! DAMN!

Naw, we all know you're kidding us. Cut and Paste on the iPhone, indeed! :p

I agree that Apple should have let everyone share in their success by giving the applications away for free, although it's likely the 1.2 OS update will just bundle them anyway (otherwise they'd always have to have two updates for the Touch) regardless of whether or not you paid for them now.

Sarbanes-Oxley is the excuse for charging, and Apple seem to be very serious about not breaking this law. New features on the PSP, PS3 and XBox360 however aren't affected by this law, or you don't need to charge for new features and Apple is making stuff up. I think a law that effectively means you can't give your customers free upgrades in functionality is rather weird. Also why does this affect us in the UK?

However it is optional, and if you were happy with the iPod Touch at release then there shouldn't be an argument now. Pay the small fee, or not.

pmoeser
Jan 16, 2008, 06:34 AM
I was curious about that one myself. I was thinking there would be either a Europe specific announcement, or a release of something huge. For all its funkiness, I wouldn't class the Air as something major. Just a nice skinny laptop. I was sorely disappointed. the only mention we got was international itunes movie rentals will not be available yet........

I think they pulled something from the keynote at the last minute

Finishing with Randy Newman!?! Come on...

I bet the record and /or movie studios pulled the pin on the pan European iTunes store or worldwide movie rentals at the last minute

Probably due to Fox and the combined iTunes/DVD

Apple are the whipping boy of the consumers who are still getting screwed by the demands of the out of touch big studios

nomad01
Jan 16, 2008, 06:34 AM
whole lot of cool-aid drinking here folks. i used to wonder how jim jones could get 1100 adults to agree to go belly up in the jungle. after reading the mac fanboi posts the last couple of years, i don't anymore.

If it bothers you so much why stick around?? You're saying that you're preaching to the perverted already so just give it up man!

Hattig
Jan 16, 2008, 06:43 AM
The ATV is not different. And it doesn't make them a lot of money. It's loser device that will discontinued by next year. Take 3!

With the lower price and new software features it could sell more, although I am not buying one until it can do full HD video (whether or not my eyes can tell the difference, heh) and play Divx, etc. Problem is that I'll get a PS3 at some point and that can do all that, so why would I need this?

However if Apple are making a profit off the device, and a revenue stream from the movie rental stuff, they'll keep it going.

tremendous
Jan 16, 2008, 06:47 AM
Why does everybody assume that $20 is fair??? I bought my iPod touch because I am on a college campus and can't afford the data plan the iPhone requires. Why does Apple consider my product differently? $20 means a lot to me. Not to mention that this iPod touch thing keeps screwing me over. No apps? $20 upgrade for capability it should have had from the beginning? Apple is ubiquitous in the academic environment, but they just refuse to show me any love. If only Apple had heard of Google's mantra - don't be evil!

To put it succinctly - why is the iPod touch being treated like a bastard sibling of the iPhone instead of the brother it really is??

hold on; if it should have had these features from the beginning, why did you buy it knowing it didn't have them if this was going to be such an issue for you? You can't have it both ways.

deputy_doofy
Jan 16, 2008, 06:55 AM
I need someone to explain why the $20 is a problem at all. Too many people have been complaining that they shouldn't have to pay $20 for something that already cost them $400.

Yet, these are the same people who have no problem with iLife being $79 (or free with their next computer purchase).

My MBP cost a lot more than an iPod Touch and you don't hear me complaining one bit.

Apple cannot both succeed financially and give everything away free.

carlostsr
Jan 16, 2008, 07:05 AM
What a disgrace!

djgamble
Jan 16, 2008, 07:05 AM
I personally think that this $20 is a farce in the same way that the 802.11n update ($2 or something ridiculous) for my MBP was.

I'll pay for a 2.0 upgrade, maybe even a 1.2 upgrade if it's substantial. But a 1.1.3 upgrade, what a farce! for 0.0.1 we pay $20. How much are they going to charge for 1.2? Based on $20 for every 0.0.1 I'd put it at $200 for 1.2, that's fair right?

Anyway I guess there's no point me complaining. Apple hasn't taken anything away from me and I don't want these features so will not pay $20... easy!

Instead I'm sticking with my Jailbroken 1.1.2, which has a large array of much more entertaining applications for free. God compared to maps and notes, how much is a PSX emulator, ScummVM, a GBA emulator, a multi-language dictionary (I live in Japan), a chat client, a drawing program...etc worth? Well I get them all for free.

It just makes MacWorld a bit disappointing as Apple hasn't matched the 3rd party developers in any way, and to rub it in they're charging $20 for their comparatively less than impressive efforts, while at the same time putting a meat axe to support for these superior 3rd party apps in their newly released firmware.

I say Apple shouldn't support 3rd party apps at this stage, but shouldn't actively take them away from us! Why bother spending all the man hours disabling useful hacks?

rspress
Jan 16, 2008, 07:11 AM
How can I fault Apple for charging 20 bucks for these apps. When the iPod Touch came out I sent feedback to Apple saying they should do just that, charge 20 bucks for the apps because one way or another people would find a way to use them anyway and so would I. I did just that by jailbreaking the iPod and installing many third party apps.

Even though I have the apps but not with all the new features I will happily plunk down my 20 bucks to go legit and get the updated apps. If this spurs Apple to make more 3 party apps available for the Touch then all the better! I would love more third party apps from Apple. I have sent my wish list into Apple via the iPod Touch feedback page and so should other users. I would really like a way to run the Widgets I made for Tiger and Leopard on the Touch and since they are just HTML, CSS and Javascript this should be a whole lot easier than it is and even third parties have not gotten this right yet. A more seamless tie in with dotmac would be cool as well. Copying and pasting text is a MUST! Leopard data detectors would be nice as well.

lavem
Jan 16, 2008, 07:18 AM
This revenue generating business still bugs me. ATV gets a free update and more functionality because it is a product that is supposed to generate cash for them. But I can buy an ATV and never pay a penny for content.

Same goes for the touch, you can buy content on it and generate more revenue for them. Or you don't bother.

I think they just want to screw us over and experiment with their itunes software store at the same time.

This fool isn't biting. :p I think the majority feel the same way.

jayducharme
Jan 16, 2008, 07:24 AM
I don't see how this is any different than buying a new computer with iLife '07 and then a few months later having new computers include iLife '08 for free while everyone else has to pay for it.

Now this finally makes sense to me. In the other Touch Update thread my position was that, as an early adopter, I felt punished for buying a first generation product. But this point is well taken: if you look at it as a software package along the lines of iLife and not a system update (which Apple did provide for free), the $20 fee makes perfect sense.

Perhaps Apple needed a better strategy for announcing it. If they had made the parallel between iLife and the new Touch apps, perhaps it would have gone down a bit better.

But then again, there's the nagging issue of the iPhone -- all of those users (lucky enough to be part of Apple's "subscription" model) get the upgrade for free. :confused:

massib80
Jan 16, 2008, 07:28 AM
and if you own an ipod touch notes, mail, maps etc. are optional software.

you didn't buy them so why do you have the right to them?

because, iPhone and iPod Touch are quite the same HARDWARE.

It's like if you buy an iMac 24 you got for free iWork, if you got iMac 20 no because 24 is more for profesional use, and the video card is faster.

ariel
Jan 16, 2008, 07:31 AM
People are so unbelievably unreasonable these days. "It should have come with these apps in the first place." It didn't, you chose to buy it knowing there was no promise of them coming later for free. Get over it. Sheesh! I suppose you want a pony too right? :)

t

AMEN

rd261
Jan 16, 2008, 07:32 AM
So Apple is not getting any "subscription revenue" from ipod users right? You're telling me that those of us that have spent hundreds of dollars on itunes do not contribute to apple's revenue? Ipod users have to pay for the music just like apple tv users have to pay to watch movies and iphone users have to pay to get the service. Im sorry but Im just very disappointed with Apple's decision and I cant find a reasonable excuse. Specially since you can get those app's easily and for free right now. Just imagine if apple decides to charge for every single update from now on?

ftaok
Jan 16, 2008, 07:36 AM
How about this perspective?

Apple will be opening up the iPod Touch and iPhone to developers in Februrary, right. If they give away free software, which is what some here are asking for, they might be accused of undercutting the 3rd party developers.

Maybe a developer wants to make a Notepad application and sell it for $2. Apple comes along and offers one for free. How would that make him feel?

I don't know, maybe I'm talkin' out my ass.

ft

BOSS10L
Jan 16, 2008, 07:40 AM
There not either but they are hoping you pay for it. ;)
With iLife it was easy when they went from free to pay.

"Oh its cost of CD for that large iDVD" - Then later "its just because its so darn cool and such a good deal at this price!" - well not that good of a deal compared to when it was free.

Yes apple is changing, but it has been like that. Free then pay.
Free then pay.

One day we will pay for our air. - oh macbook air. :)
Seriously, it is funny as with things like the movie rentals, one day you will have adds thrown in your movies...right at a climatic point...and then you one day will have to pay for 2 hours of adds, then some more to see a peak of a movie...and one day...well, we know what happens then. The universe explodes from the stupidity and greed. heheh

Peace

dAlen

That is because true GPS is based on sattelite tracking which is "everywhere", whereas the iPod Touch is based on Wi-Fi tracking, which isn't everywhere...yet.

I hope you mother in law enjoys it, I got one (even though it is a base model - GPS only) for the Holidays, and it's been great.

Fast Shadow
Jan 16, 2008, 07:42 AM
If you're angry about the $20 charge for the Touch upgrade, then complain to your congresspeople about the law. This is an election year, after all.

PatrickC
Jan 16, 2008, 07:42 AM
...whereas the iPod Touch is based on cellular tracking, which isn't everywhere...yet.

I think you mean WiFi tracking.

BOSS10L
Jan 16, 2008, 07:45 AM
Dang, you Apple people have had it too good for too long. I'm a Windows guy about to go MBP this weekend. Hop over to the M$ side of things and I'm sure you'll appreciate what you have.

Had Billy-Boy released something like this for the Zune, it would require a HW attachment, some convoluted authentication scheme, and your wallet would be at least $100 lighter.

As others have pointed out, if you think the update has value, buy it. If not, don't.

I think you mean WiFi tracking.


Thanks. I'm not awake yet. :D

Tyrannosaurs
Jan 16, 2008, 07:45 AM
because, iPhone and iPod Touch are quite the same HARDWARE.

It's like if you buy an iMac 24 you got for free iWork, if you got iMac 20 no because 24 is more for profesional use, and the video card is faster.
that's odd because i've had a really good look at my ipod touch and can't find the gsm phone or the camera. and my ipod touch has more RAM. and the iphone processor is faster. the iphone is certainly bigger, which suggests that there's something in there.

you mean they're compatible which is different.

look at it this way. the people who bought an iphone paid extra. why shouldn't they get more apps?

people who buy OS X server get stuff that's not in regular OS X. that's not because OS X Server won't run on a non-server mac. something like wikiserver on a macbook for local wiki's would be cool and, by your logic they could give it to me for free because it already exists.

but i don't expect it because OS X and OS X server are DIFFERENT PRODUCTS in the same way that the iPhone and the iPod Touch are different products.

apple bundle stuff up and flog it to us. we make the choice on whether to buy it or not and, where there are different versions, we choose which one we buy by weighing up what it offers and what it costs.

but you don't get to buy the product and then moan about the fact it doesn't do something it never claimed to do.

I think you mean WiFi tracking.

it uses both to improve accuracy.

still, in the arse end of no-where you'll still get +/- 5 miles because there won't be enough registered hotspots or masts.

Now this finally makes sense to me. In the other Touch Update thread my position was that, as an early adopter, I felt punished for buying a first generation product. But this point is well taken: if you look at it as a software package along the lines of iLife and not a system update (which Apple did provide for free), the $20 fee makes perfect sense.

Perhaps Apple needed a better strategy for announcing it. If they had made the parallel between iLife and the new Touch apps, perhaps it would have gone down a bit better.

But then again, there's the nagging issue of the iPhone -- all of those users (lucky enough to be part of Apple's "subscription" model) get the upgrade for free. :confused:
free?

have you seen the price of an iPhone and subscription plan? in the UK it comes to about £800 ($1600) over a couple of years.

the increased functionality is anything but free.

So Apple is not getting any "subscription revenue" from ipod users right? You're telling me that those of us that have spent hundreds of dollars on itunes do not contribute to apple's revenue? Ipod users have to pay for the music just like apple tv users have to pay to watch movies and iphone users have to pay to get the service. Im sorry but Im just very disappointed with Apple's decision and I cant find a reasonable excuse. Specially since you can get those app's easily and for free right now. Just imagine if apple decides to charge for every single update from now on?
i agree with your disappointment but that's no argument - it's not a subscription because there is no commitment.

i know plenty of people who have an ipod but have never spent a penny on iTunes.

Baron58
Jan 16, 2008, 07:58 AM
So Macs are under the subscription model? Because they get constantly updated.

No. There were not any major features added to 10.3.x or 10.4.x, nor will there be to 10.5.x. Just bugfixes and minor tweaks. Any feature that materially adds to the value of the product will be in the next (e.g. 10.6) release, which you will *pay* for, and then get bugfixes for 'free' until the next major release, and so on.

This is not Apple being mean. This is a result of the Sarbanes-Oxley (SOX) accounting laws.

SilentLoner
Jan 16, 2008, 08:00 AM
free?

have you seen the price of an iPhone and subscription plan? in the UK it comes to about £800 ($1600) over a couple of years.

the increased functionality is anything but free.


It riles me that people bought the ipod touch without these features, so they can buy the updates if they want but still they got a ipod touch that is exactly the same as when they first bought it. The iphone is a completely different kettle of fish as it on a subscription based service.

Baron58
Jan 16, 2008, 08:03 AM
Do you think the word "should" means a damn thing to Apple? (Arrogant greedy twats that they are) Nope.

There's a lot of things that they should do but never will. Sad what's become of them.

You mean, that they've become a profitable, innovative, growing-market-share company? Yes. It's sad when success happens. :rolleyes:

What, exactly, were they before they were 'greedy twats'? You really prefer the Apple, Inc. that made Performas, System 7.x, incompatible everything, "Sorry, a system error has occurred <bomb>", "Error Type 11", and had ~ 1% marketshare, if that?

guzhogi
Jan 16, 2008, 08:06 AM
The iPod touch does not fall under this model, and therefore under Apple's reasoning, a major feature upgrade must incur a charge.

So it's kinda like when people had to pay $1.99 to activate the 802.11n card in the first MBPs. W/ the MBPs, I kinda had a problem w/ it since the card was actually built-in, but not advertised. W/ the iPod Touch, it's a new feature (kinda). Actually, aren't the iPod Touch & iPhone relatively the same hardware minus the phone? So it would've been really easy to just copy the software over. But whatever. I'm not getting an iPod Touch so doesn't really matter.

Freis968
Jan 16, 2008, 08:09 AM
How do you know if the iPod Touch in the store has the upgrade already? Is there some new UPC# or some sticker on the outside telling you its upgraded?

jayducharme
Jan 16, 2008, 08:17 AM
Having a non jailbroken iPod just seems like the right thing to do now that the apps are officiallly available. Who's with me?

I agree with the non-jailbroken iPod statement. I launched the software update feature in iTunes and something caught my eye: "January Software Update." I'm cynical and paranoid, so this is probably over-reacting. But why is it specifically called a "January" software update? The implication is that this is the first of future monthly updates, almost like a subscription service. I can see Apple bundling the new apps that are developed with the SDK and every month enticing people to shell out more $$$.

The only app I really wanted in this bundle was the Notes app. Well, that and also the ability to re-arrange the icons (which IMO should have been part of the system update). So I think I'm going to wait a bit....

tivoboy
Jan 16, 2008, 08:18 AM
I haven't read the ENTIRE thread, but the point to make is

The issue of Software Revenue Recognition rules and requirements is 100% valid. In order for apple to be able to BOOK all the revenue of the SALE of any product, there must be NO ADDITIONAL deliverable, consequential or INCONSEQUENTIAL in the future. Otherwise, a percent of REVENUE would have to be DEFERRED till such time that those items are DELIVERED, ACCEPTED and INSTALLED by the end user.

Such a scenario is bad for revenue timing, and REALLY bad for tracking of DELIVERY.

With a charge, (and it DOES have to be somewhat reasonable) it becomes a NEW REVENUE opportunity and a NEW DELIVERY with its OWN REVENUE SCHEDULE.

Remember the 802.11N update, that was 2.99$ or something crazy. SAME Thing.

It is just anothe reason why we HAVE to pay something for SOFTWARE upgrades, but not UPDATES

Baron58
Jan 16, 2008, 08:19 AM
Why does everybody assume that $20 is fair???

Why not?

I bought my iPod touch because I am on a college campus and can't afford the data plan the iPhone requires.So?

Why does Apple consider my product differently? Why do you consider it the same?

$20 means a lot to me.Then don't spend it. Your Touch will function just as it always has.

Not to mention that this iPod touch thing keeps screwing me over. How? If it's broken, get it fixed under warranty. If it works AS IT WAS SOLD TO YOU, then how is it 'screwing' you? By doing exactly what it was designed to do?

$20 upgrade for capability it should have had from the beginning?"Should" have had? Oh, I thought you were a college student. I didn't realise that you were the VP of Product Design for Apple. My bad.

why is the iPod touch being treated like a bastard sibling of the iPhone instead of the brother it really is??

Did APPLE define it as the brother, or did YOU? I don't recall ever seeing Apple marketing material that called it a phoneless iPhone, it's called an iPod that happens to have some additional features. You BOUGHT an iPod that happened to have some additional features. If you expected more, then that's your fault. It performs exactly as advertised. You knew this when you bought it. No promises were made for any additional apps.

Now, Hey! Here's some new Apps (if you want them). Cost for these apps = $20. So, you make a choice: are they worth $20 to you? If so, spend it. If not, don't. Nothing has been taken away from what your touch already does. No promises were broken. Get over it.

I am SO SICK of all the whining about this keynote and its products, and in general, all of the whining about how Apple is out to screw people.

jayducharme
Jan 16, 2008, 08:26 AM
the increased functionality is anything but free.

Yes, but Apple had no obligation to add the new apps to the iPhone. You could have been paying the same tariffs without them. So your iPhone now has "added value" which might make the tariffs slightly more attractive, especially if Apple continues adding more functionality at no additional cost.

Touch owners, though, apparently will always have to pay for that functionality.
Again, I see the point people have been making: the Touch is really an MP3 player; it's not a "subscription-free" iPhone. MP3 players don't need GPS and Notes.

But it would be nice.... :)

guzhogi
Jan 16, 2008, 08:30 AM
Why not?

So?

Why do you consider it the same?

Then don't spend it. Your Touch will function just as it always has.

How? If it's broken, get it fixed under warranty. If it works AS IT WAS SOLD TO YOU, then how is it 'screwing' you? By doing exactly what it was designed to do?

"Should" have had? Oh, I thought you were a college student. I didn't realise that you were the VP of Product Design for Apple. My bad.



Did APPLE define it as the brother, or did YOU? I don't recall ever seeing Apple marketing material that called it a phoneless iPhone, it's called an iPod that happens to have some additional features. You BOUGHT an iPod that happened to have some additional features. If you expected more, then that's your fault. It performs exactly as advertised. You knew this when you bought it. No promises were made for any additional apps.

Now, Hey! Here's some new Apps (if you want them). Cost for these apps = $20. So, you make a choice: are they worth $20 to you? If so, spend it. If not, don't. Nothing has been taken away from what your touch already does. No promises were broken. Get over it.

I am SO SICK of all the whining about this keynote and its products, and in general, all of the whining about how Apple is out to screw people.

You bring up a lot of good points, but there's no need to be rude. I agree that if someone put in effort for this to happen, they should get paid for it. However, there are many times where people may really need something, but can't afford it. So something's gotta give.

bytethese
Jan 16, 2008, 08:32 AM
Locate me tool - Great feature, but it would have been a lot helpful if it were on my iPhone like a month ago! I spent christmas in New York, and I got totally lost at one point in the upper east side, and it took me forever to find out where I was... So I had to improvise... (Long story).

Multiple Text Messaging - How handy would this have been for Christmas day and New Years, the amount of times that I had to type the same message over and over again, wishing all of my friends and family a merry christmas... My fingers got so tired... With multiple texts, it would have been so much easier!

I guess these features would come in handy this year and future years to come right?

Sorry, I always get a chuckle out of people who get lost on numbered streets. :) But yes, Locate Me would have been helpful not only a month ago, but from the getgo! The Multiple Text Message feature is going to save me a lot of typing!

Small White Car
Jan 16, 2008, 08:32 AM
I don't see how this is any different than buying a new computer with iLife '07 and then a few months later having new computers include iLife '08 for free while everyone else has to pay for it.

EXACTLY.

Everyone is so thrilled that they can put a computer in a phone or put a computer in an iPod. "Wow" the say. "This is way better than those old phones...this is a whole computer in here!"

Well, guess what, kids. Computer software costs money. And for those saying the iPhone gets it for "free" you do realize those people are paying $80 - $150 per MONTH to use that thing, don't you? You really want to compare yourself to that? (And yes, Apple gets a chunk of that each and every month.)

Maybe you should realize when you're ahead and leave it at that!

dan-o-mac
Jan 16, 2008, 08:36 AM
No. There were not any major features added to 10.3.x or 10.4.x, nor will there be to 10.5.x. Just bugfixes and minor tweaks. Any feature that materially adds to the value of the product will be in the next (e.g. 10.6) release, which you will *pay* for, and then get bugfixes for 'free' until the next major release, and so on.

This is not Apple being mean. This is a result of the Sarbanes-Oxley (SOX) accounting laws.

What about the iTunes example someone gave earlier? Wasn't a major feature added yesterday?

IMO this was a poorly handled update by Apple. They should have just waited for the SDK to be released and sold each app separate. The way they did it now, it just comes off as a greedy move.

I think most people are upset because they knew these apps could have been on the Touch a long time ago, and held back just to milk us later. I don't even have a touch and I feel it's a snake move on Apple's part(especially releasing it after the Holiday season).

Oh well what can you do. If you don't like it, don't support it. If you feel its wrong and took the time to write about it on this forum, I hope you take the time out to send Apple some feedback.

carlostsr
Jan 16, 2008, 08:39 AM
I bought my iPod form Germany and I live in Romania I have no option to buy that update. In Apple's vision some customers are more customers than others. Not to mention that "special" 20$ update issue. What a disgrace for all the customers what a shame!

I will make a complaint to European Union for unfair commercial practices for that 20$ surcharge and for discrimination within EU economic space. Please contact the European Union board under Meglena Kuneva Commissioner.
For all the europeans please fill up the complaint against Apple.Inc

http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/index_en.htm

As a customer I have the right to be customer! Apple did not think of that.

eastcoastsurfer
Jan 16, 2008, 08:39 AM
Apple has always been closed, but I think now we see why they are becoming even more closed. They want to be able to nickel and dime customers to add features (which arguably should have been their to start) to their products now.

What's so wrong with jailbreaking the ipod touch? Don't let Apple fool you and say it messes up the customer experience. Jailbreaking gets in the way of Apples revenue stream and that's why they fight it so much. Forget what's best for the consumer (or the fact that you OWN a piece of hardware once you buy it). Apples recent treatment of it's customers with the iphone and now the touch have soured me on them. They used to embrace the hackers (anyone remember the Apple 2 came with a complete circuit layout!), and were once hackers themselves fighting the closed hardware makers. My how times have changed. Makes me think more and more that my mbp will be the last apple computer I own :(

Mackan
Jan 16, 2008, 08:40 AM
Ok, existing iPod touch owners have to pay for this update, but new buyers get it for free. Those who think this is fair, how do you reason?

For me, it's okay they charge you if you want good new applications. But why put these applications on new shipping iPods? They should have a base firmware for all iPod touch, then let all owners go buy new cool applications through iTunes, if they want.

That is what would be fair for me. Right now they just screw early buyers. It is hardly encouraging. Despite their cool products, their buisness models are clearly very greed directed.

iStefmac
Jan 16, 2008, 08:43 AM
I think iPod touch users got off cheap. Real cheap.

iStefmac
Jan 16, 2008, 08:46 AM
Ok, existing iPod touch owners have to pay for this update, but new buyers get it for free. Those who think this is fair, how do you reason?

For me, it's okay they charge you if you want good new applications. But why put these applications on new shipping iPods? They should have a base firmware for all iPod touch, then let all owners go buy new cool applications through iTunes, if they want.

That is what would be fair for me. Right now they just screw early buyers. It is hardly encouraging. Despite their cool products, their buisness models are clearly very greed directed.

Please. Don't go there. iPhone owners would tear you a new one for saying that $20 for the remaining 5 of our apps (excluding phone as a possibility) is screwing early buyers. Hardly. Dropping the price of the iPhone by $200....THAT was screwing early adopters. $100 credit or not. Its a GIFT is what it is. People who want them will have them. People who don't, won't.

Nym
Jan 16, 2008, 08:55 AM
Am I wrong or is this the FIRST time since the iPod introduction that the customer has to pay for a software update?

sikkinixx
Jan 16, 2008, 08:56 AM
All I know is my iPod stays jailbroken, with more features, with a much more attractive skin, and it cost me 20 minutes of my time. I bet it took them about the same amount of time to change the code to 'update' the apps for the ipod.

gkarris
Jan 16, 2008, 08:58 AM
I haven't read the ENTIRE thread, but the point to make is

The issue of Software Revenue Recognition rules and requirements is 100% valid. In order for apple to be able to BOOK all the revenue of the SALE of any product, there must be NO ADDITIONAL deliverable, consequential or INCONSEQUENTIAL in the future. Otherwise, a percent of REVENUE would have to be DEFERRED till such time that those items are DELIVERED, ACCEPTED and INSTALLED by the end user.

Such a scenario is bad for revenue timing, and REALLY bad for tracking of DELIVERY.

With a charge, (and it DOES have to be somewhat reasonable) it becomes a NEW REVENUE opportunity and a NEW DELIVERY with its OWN REVENUE SCHEDULE.

Remember the 802.11N update, that was 2.99$ or something crazy. SAME Thing.

It is just anothe reason why we HAVE to pay something for SOFTWARE upgrades, but not UPDATES


Yep, we got rid of SOX (Sarbanes-Oxley) at work because of their other strange rules that were upsetting our clients...

I don't think it would affect a lot of people - most bought the Touch as an iPod.

Now, it's the BEST PDA available!

The only reason I didn't get the Touch is becuase it didn't have the iPhone apps. Now I'm thinking if something happends to my iPhone, I'll just get a cheap phone and replace it with a Touch...

asiayeah
Jan 16, 2008, 09:02 AM
If I want to get the capability to display lyrics on the iPod touch, do I have to pay the USD20? The lyrics display capability is more like a missing feature than a new feature. Because the feature is available on almost all existing ipods, except the ipod shuffle.

How about installing 3rd party applications when the SDK is available? Do we have to pay USD20 to get a customizable home screen so that we can install any future application on it?

I think Apple should free the lyrics display and customizable home screens as a free upgrade, because those should be part of the original iPod touches. For Mail, Google Maps, Weather or Stock, feel free to charge them and better individually at $5 each.

asiayeah
Jan 16, 2008, 09:03 AM
And BTW, is the Radio Remote supported by firmware 1.1.3 yet?

Teddy's
Jan 16, 2008, 09:07 AM
It's obvious that most of the current iPT users are not happy with the charge. Even if it is $20 or $4.99 or $1.99 It does not matter!

Yesterday I saw a different company. One that is more interested in lifestyle and status rather than performance.

Shortly, Apple will be working with Abercrombie to release Mac Scarves for your MB Air... at $200 a piece.

Mechcozmo
Jan 16, 2008, 09:08 AM
About the iPod Touch apps...

Could this be like the 802.11n updater? Where Apple cannot 'enable' new features without a fee due to the way revenue is counted?

The price could be cheaper, sure, but just throwing that idea out into the wild...

ablashek
Jan 16, 2008, 09:12 AM
wow, its almost like apple likes to harm its early buyers.
All those who bought the iPhone in the first days paid full price, when the prices dropped 200$ they gave back 100$ store credit. Now the iPod Touch, all those that bought the iPod early will have to paid 20$ for software that is included in all iPod Touches after this date?

After these events, i'll wait before i purchase the MacBook Air... who knows in 4 months maybe they will include the cd/dvd player for free?

thats a bad apple...

Mackan
Jan 16, 2008, 09:13 AM
Please. Don't go there. iPhone owners would tear you a new one for saying that $20 for the remaining 5 of our apps (excluding phone as a possibility) is screwing early buyers. Hardly. Dropping the price of the iPhone by $200....THAT was screwing early adopters. $100 credit or not. Its a GIFT is what it is. People who want them will have them. People who don't, won't.

New buyers of iPod touch get the applications for free, early buyers don't. That's what unfair and we have to react against it. I am not counting the dollars here. I see some people on this forum defending all what Apple is doing, to death. It doesn't matter what clear logical reasoning you do.

joeconvert
Jan 16, 2008, 09:14 AM
Why does everybody assume that $20 is fair??? I bought my iPod touch because I am on a college campus and can't afford the data plan the iPhone requires. Why does Apple consider my product differently? $20 means a lot to me. Not to mention that this iPod touch thing keeps screwing me over. No apps? $20 upgrade for capability it should have had from the beginning? Apple is ubiquitous in the academic environment, but they just refuse to show me any love. If only Apple had heard of Google's mantra - don't be evil!

To put it succinctly - why is the iPod touch being treated like a bastard sibling of the iPhone instead of the brother it really is??

The post above yours pretty much summed it up. You are paying Apple nowhere near what iPhone users are.... get over it.

franzmueller
Jan 16, 2008, 09:16 AM
Want to step around to tell you that i am very happy with my update and for € 17,99 ( in Spain ) i´ve got a lot of new features into my itp .

I believe some of this apps are from 3rd party ? anyway can´t wait till new apps arrives and for € 4-5 .- a piece i´m in .

When i first bought my ipod i knew what i was getting and since ever i had to pay for new software ..... ilife ? OSX ? quicktime pro ?

So take it easy .... i still have 8 pages to fill up with great apps :D

Saludos

Tyrannosaurs
Jan 16, 2008, 09:17 AM
However, there are many times where people may really need something, but can't afford it. So something's gotta give.
Need? As in can't live without?

We're talking about an iPod Touch here. There's no-one who needs the damn thing in the first place so I'm not sure what need has to do with it.

twoodcc
Jan 16, 2008, 09:20 AM
yeah, i thought there was reason for the $20 fee.

capvideo
Jan 16, 2008, 09:23 AM
OK, so why is iTunes treated differently, then? New versions come out from time to time with new features (yesterday, :rolleyes:), but existing Mac owners aren't being asked to pay for it.

Well, you are being asked to pay for iTunes. You're being asked to pay 20% of the original cost. :cool:

If it was just to get around a legal requirement, surely they would charge some token amount, like $1.

The bureaucrats who enforce laws like Sarbanes-Oxley do not like it when you try to get around their turf. In this case I believe it's the SEC, and they have all sorts of ways to screw you over if they decide you're trying to get around one of the requirements that they enforce.

I would like to see a clear description of why and how this is a legal requirement though; I'd like to be able to complain to the right people.

Jerry

germ war
Jan 16, 2008, 09:23 AM
I don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet, but here are my thoughts on the $20 charge:

When I bought a 3rd generation iPod in July 2003, I was very excited for everything it could do. A year or so later, Apple came out with the 4th generation model which had some extra software abilities that my current model didn't have. My option? Buy a whole new iPod.

While most people are upset about the $20 charge, I'm glad Apple is now giving people that option, instead of expecting people to buy a whole new product to get the new features.

bytethese
Jan 16, 2008, 09:24 AM
Need? As in can't live without?

We're talking about an iPod Touch here. There's no-one who needs the damn thing in the first place so I'm not sure what need has to do with it.

"I said bring only what you need to survive!"

"It's my industrial strength iPod, and I CAN'T live without it!"

TehBits
Jan 16, 2008, 09:25 AM
Need? As in can't live without?

We're talking about an iPod Touch here. There's no-one who needs the damn thing in the first place so I'm not sure what need has to do with it.

Exactly. I don't get what the big deal is. It's an iPod, why the hell does it need GPS? Especially if it only works in WiFi. Generally, if you're in a place with WiFi, you've got a pretty good idea where you are in the first place.

noco80
Jan 16, 2008, 09:27 AM
Why does everybody assume that $20 is fair??? I bought my iPod touch because I am on a college campus and can't afford the data plan the iPhone requires. Why does Apple consider my product differently? $20 means a lot to me. Not to mention that this iPod touch thing keeps screwing me over. No apps? $20 upgrade for capability it should have had from the beginning? Apple is ubiquitous in the academic environment, but they just refuse to show me any love. If only Apple had heard of Google's mantra - don't be evil!

To put it succinctly - why is the iPod touch being treated like a bastard sibling of the iPhone instead of the brother it really is??

So, if your a college student and on a budget, why are you buying a new iPod Touch. It's hard to argue that an iPod Touch is an essential item in your daily life. Food, housing, books for school - those are necessary. iPods, not so much. If you were a decently intelligent student (you did get into college) you should have known of the lack of apps before you bought it. Again, it's not appropriate to complain about something you got yourself into.

beeh
Jan 16, 2008, 09:29 AM
It's cyclical. Apple has grown to be popular now, something Microsoft was years ago. A few years from now it will be someone else ( Google maybe ) that delivers us the next cool series of gadgets, they're probably out there now, just not well known ( yet ).

It seems that the announcements yesterday were cool, I think. I only question the MacBook Air, I don't see a huge market for it. Maybe there is, or maybe this is the start of a slew of products that Steve thinks are "cool" that market research conrtadicts? ( i.e. he's going nutty, seems to happen to most celebrities ).

BH

Thomas S
Jan 16, 2008, 09:33 AM
There are a few reasons why the charge was necessary and fair.


Due to the fear of a SOX audit, etc. Apple has to charge for additional functionality; if they did not, they'd be leaving the door *wide open* for legal trouble for unfairly recognizing revenue early.
You all bought the iPod Touch KNOWING what it came with. You found it a worthy purchase, and parted with your money. Apple has delivered what you purchased with everything they advertised for it. That's where their duty to you, the consumer, ENDS. You were NEVER promised updates such as this, and you KNEW this when you purchased the device. Quit whining and go back to a basic econ class.
Apple has the right to charge ANYTHING they want (but they choose to go with what the market will pay). You are not required to purchase an iPod Touch, and you are not required to purchase this update. It's optional. If enough people refuse to buy it, Apple will go back and re-evaluate the market price (just look at the iPhone). Greed has nothing to do with it; Apple's only duty is to its shareholders - and giving things away like candy doesn't help there.
You need to understand that you no "right" to this update; I cannot stress this enough. Just because you want something does not mean you're going to get it.


Now, a few of you are asking "well, iTunes and Software Updater... " and why you're not charged for those updates. First off, the iTunes client is free, and because of that, they don't have to worry about recognizing revenue for it (since there is none).

As far as software updates are concerned, they're delivering on promises made through advertising, the terms of service, etc. etc. when you originally purchased the product. In addition, they're not adding functionality to it that would raise red flags with Uncle Sam; they're just fixing things etc.

Anyhow, if you want to complain about the fees feel free to write your state's representatives and senators; they're the ones who passed SOX, and they're the ones who continually tie the hands of corporations.

Tyrannosaurs
Jan 16, 2008, 09:37 AM
Am I wrong or is this the FIRST time since the iPod introduction that the customer has to pay for a software update?
depends whether you count the games apple has been releasing for the Nano and Classic.

that's basically the same thing in that new functionality = more money.

PatrickC
Jan 16, 2008, 09:39 AM
...whereas the iPod Touch is based on cellular tracking, which isn't everywhere...yet.

I think you mean WiFi tracking.

it uses both to improve accuracy.

still, in the arse end of no-where you'll still get +/- 5 miles because there won't be enough registered hotspots or masts.

I was referring to comments about the iPod Touch, which only uses WiFi positioning as it has no GSM capabilities. It has no way of using both methods of tracking.

slffl
Jan 16, 2008, 09:39 AM
Good! I say make it $50 for whiners. All of you always want everything for free. If you can't afford it, or think it's unfair, BUY SOMETHING ELSE or don't buy anything at all.

Dicx
Jan 16, 2008, 09:41 AM
Well, you are being asked to pay for iTunes. You're being asked to pay 20% of the original cost. :cool:



The bureaucrats who enforce laws like Sarbanes-Oxley do not like it when you try to get around their turf. In this case I believe it's the SEC, and they have all sorts of ways to screw you over if they decide you're trying to get around one of the requirements that they enforce.

I would like to see a clear description of why and how this is a legal requirement though; I'd like to be able to complain to the right people.

Jerry


Finally someone has done some research and figured it out, also Sarbanes-Oxley is EXACTLY why it is $20.00. Not free, not $1, not $15.00. The iPhone and Apple TV can be amortized to accommodate the free update. The iPhone has AT&T and the subscription, the ATV has iTunes with subscriptions also (season pass, and now rentals.)

You can go to: http://www.sarbanes-oxley-101.com/

for more info.

brad2610
Jan 16, 2008, 09:43 AM
I bought the update and it does not download...does not install..it does nothing.

Looks like the apple/mac discussions are heating up about others having the exact issue.

mrwizardno2
Jan 16, 2008, 09:47 AM
I bought the update and it does not download...does not install..it does nothing.

Looks like the apple/mac discussions are heating up about others having the exact issue.

Strange. Worked fine for us last night.

Tyrannosaurs
Jan 16, 2008, 09:50 AM
I bought the update and it does not download...does not install..it does nothing.

Looks like the apple/mac discussions are heating up about others having the exact issue.

you buy it then go to the main ipod screen in itunes and do "check for update". this will download the 1.1.3 update and install it at which point the apps appear.

same thing happened to me - the whole "huh?" when you click purchase and nothing happens... worked it out in the end.

Teddy's
Jan 16, 2008, 09:50 AM
You can go to: http://www.sarbanes-oxley-101.com/

for more info.

Securities??? Confused

How the hell that US Law is being applied to other countries?

Lancetx
Jan 16, 2008, 09:50 AM
I could understand the complaints over the iPhone price drop because we were talking about $200 at that point. But to hear so much angst over just $20 with the iPod touch? I'm sorry, but that's literally a drop in the bucket by comparison. Not to even mention that iPhone customers in the U.S. have to pay a minimum of $60 per month for 2 years to AT&T just to have one.

Everyone has known for almost a year what impact SOX has on software upgrades, as it goes all the way back to the 802.11n upgraders. Knowing that, plus what happened with the iPhone back in September, I'm not sure how anyone was surprised by the events of yesterday with the iPod touch.

Like many have said, if you choose not to pay the $19.99, your iPod touch will still work exactly the same as it did yesterday morning, so it's not like Apple is cheating you. And if you don't like having to pay $19.99 for the upgrade, blame the congress, because that's squarely where the blame belongs.

Mackan
Jan 16, 2008, 09:51 AM
Good! I say make it $50 for whiners. All of you always want everything for free. If you can't afford it, or think it's unfair, BUY SOMETHING ELSE or don't buy anything at all.

I would say it is just good we have people bringing up points why we can question Apple's actions. I want the iPod touch update to be free for early buyers, if new buyers get it for free. I can also pay for it, if new buyers also have to pay for it. But they don't, so it feels unfair. That is why we whine.

It has nothing to do with always wanting everything to be free.

Unspeaked
Jan 16, 2008, 09:51 AM
I think the problem with the $20 upgrade is that when the iPod Touch was presented, many people looked at it as an alternative to the iPhone for those that didn't have AT&T and/or didn't want to hack a phone.

In fact, I can think of specific threads where would-be unlockers were told be posters that they should just get a Touch and not bother unlocking.

Well, clearly that wasn't the way Apple saw it; but actions like this only justify the consciouses of those that hacked their Touches to get the iPhone applications on it...

Small White Car
Jan 16, 2008, 09:52 AM
Apples recent treatment of it's customers with the iphone and now the touch have soured me on them.

And WHAT, exactly, did they do to stop jail-broken iPhones? People who bought them and jail-broke them are STILL using those phones today! Apple could have found a way to kick them off the cell-network, but they haven't touched those phones one little bit. Not once.

Yes, people with jail-broken phones can't run new updates from Apple, but so what? People have a choice to make: Am I going to get my software from hackers or from Apple? BOTH choices worked out well for the people who made them.

The only thing you CAN'T do is pick one (hackers) and then whine and complain that you can't ALSO get the other (support and updates from Apple). Well boo hoo, you're telling me you can't have it all? You want the best of both worlds? Get over it. If you wanted to go with the hackers, be happy with your choice. No one is stopping you.

cmendill
Jan 16, 2008, 09:52 AM
This is a matter of perception. Consumers see the touch as iPhone minus phone minus camera. The look nearly identical, they run the same software. It stands to reason that they should feel entitled to all the same free software the iPhone gets that will run equally well on the touch. If Apple really wanted these to be two drastically different devices they should have changed the appearance of the touch, they should have not included wifi, they should have given it only music/video capabilities, it should have been $100 cheaper. That would have been a bad idea, which is why the didn't do it. People who want a touch, want an iPhone, but don't want a new phone. But, after releasing it as simply iPhone minus phone, they've chosen to arbitrarily draw a line between which apps touch users get and which ones they don't. That seems silly. And why they are charging an upgrade fee (legality aside) where new touch owners won't have to pay makes people feel cheated.

These aren't new apps. They are standard OS X portable apps, consumers realize that. Charging an upgrade fee is identical to Microsoft having multiple versions of Vista at different price points. Go ahead and charge both touch users and iPhone users for NEW apps, but come on, this was just a quick way to make a buck and nothing else. Shame on :apple:.

This should have been a $0.02 upgrade.

my $0.02

Dicx
Jan 16, 2008, 09:54 AM
Securities??? Confused

How the hell that US Law is being applied to other countries?

Because Apple is headquartered in the US and it's accounting every year is in the US, and they are liable for US taxes and accounting principles.

Simple enough.

guzhogi
Jan 16, 2008, 09:54 AM
About the iPod Touch apps...

Could this be like the 802.11n updater? Where Apple cannot 'enable' new features without a fee due to the way revenue is counted?

The price could be cheaper, sure, but just throwing that idea out into the wild...

I think so. The only thing I didn't get about the 802.11n was it's not like people bought an .11n adaptor and installed it. It was already built-in, but Apple didn't say so. How hard is it to say "We have 802.11n built-in"? I remember someone saying in the thread about the .11n that he could show me a MBP box and it wouldn't say that it had .11n. But then I'd open up the MBP and show him the .11N. I just didn't like having to pay any amount for a feature we already have, whether advertised or not.

With the iPod Touch, it's a little more grey than black or white. iPod Touches didn't have these features before so I can see why we should pay for them. On the other hand, they were already on the iPhone and the two products, under my understanding, are pretty much identical except for the phone so no extra development was needed. Just put it into the firmware installer. If Notes and E-Mail were completely new apps that neither had before, I can see the charge. But when it's like this, it's kind of a rip off IMO.

In response to the person who said Apple would partner w/ Abercrombie & sell a scarf for the MBA for $200, I agree. Apple seems like it wants market share, but makes only high class, really stylized products only rich people can afford. Apple makes a lot of really cool products, but they're just so expensive. I remember reading articles on MRs and Appleinsider about the breakdown of different Apple products and how much the individual components cost. For many Apple products, the total cost of the actual components (screen, hard drives, etc.) is about half what the completed products goes for. Like a $100 product would actually cost Apple $50 for the parts. Sure there's assembly, R&D costs and so forth, but a lot of that gets worked off so Apple can discount prices after a while. And Apple charges a REALLY big premium for RAM when you can go somewhere else, get the same kind of RAM for not even 1/2. Apple, IMO, likes to overcharge people. But then again, a lot of other companies do, too.

Tyrannosaurs
Jan 16, 2008, 09:56 AM
One other thing:

This is now a pattern and a defined behaviour for apple - it's happened for the MBP n update, now it's happened for the ipod touch.

If you're moaning this time, fair enough, I get why you're upset, however please accept that this is now how apple do business and in future buy products based on what they are at the time you hand over the cash and don't expect that you'll get extra stuff for free down the line.

Tyrannosaurs
Jan 16, 2008, 10:01 AM
I think so. The only thing I didn't get about the 802.11n was it's not like people bought an .11n adaptor and installed it. It was already built-in, but Apple didn't say so. How hard is it to say "We have 802.11n built-in"? I remember someone saying in the thread about the .11n that he could show me a MBP box and it wouldn't say that it had .11n. But then I'd open up the MBP and show him the .11N. I just didn't like having to pay any amount for a feature we already have, whether advertised or not.
nearly but not quite. the product is a combination of hardware and software. the argument that the hardware was capable of supporting n is undermined by the fact that (a) the software wasn't and therefore the product wasn't, and (b) they never sold it as a n compatible product.

reality is that a lot of products could do a lot more stuff if the software changed - that's what new versions are for. i could list a load of features i'd like in OSX which could be implemented without changing the hardware. doesn't mean i'm entitled to them.
With the iPod Touch, it's a little more grey than black or white. iPod Touches didn't have these features before so I can see why we should pay for them. On the other hand, they were already on the iPhone and the two products, under my understanding, are pretty much identical except for the phone so no extra development was needed. Just put it into the firmware installer. If Notes and E-Mail were completely new apps that neither had before, I can see the charge. But when it's like this, it's kind of a rip off IMO.
the whole of the software industry relies on the fact that you write it once and then milk it. if an app is ported to the mac from the PC do you expect a discount because they had to do less work for the mac version?

why should the ipod be any different?

Dicx
Jan 16, 2008, 10:03 AM
One other thing:

This is now a pattern and a defined behaviour for apple - it's happened for the MBP n update, now it's happened for the ipod touch.

If you're moaning this time, fair enough, I get why you're upset, however please accept that this is now how apple do business and in future buy products based on what they are at the time you hand over the cash and don't expect that you'll get extra stuff for free down the line.

Yes, Apple post 2002 (Sarbanes-Oxley) will act like this from now on.

matthewHUB
Jan 16, 2008, 10:04 AM
so.... Locate Me should work on any Mac if it can use wireless pinpoint technology, not just cell towers??

DamnDJ
Jan 16, 2008, 10:05 AM
You know, I am shocked at the people who think that Apple is okay for charging $20 for an upgrade that should have been there in the first place.

There is NO other reason for this other than the fact that Apple is being greedy. These features should have been available in the first place, for free. Was this Apple's plan all along? Cripple the iTouch with the plan to milk even MORE money out of the buyers just a few months after it's release? Ridiculous. Utterly and completely ridiculous.

Shame on Apple for this. Are they really that hard up for cash where they need to cheat their customers out of money? Sure, it's "only $20" but money is money. I don't go outside just throwing money out on the streets.

In other news, I am loving the locate me feature on Google Maps. I've tried it at home, at work, and while at a gas station on my way to work. All three times it nailed my location within a hundred feet or so. I'm sure results will vary, but so far so good here in Denver.

Loge
Jan 16, 2008, 10:14 AM
Yes, Apple post 2002 (Sarbanes-Oxley) will act like this from now on.

Lucky they "forgot" when 5G iPod owners got gapless playback for free in a firmware update.

phytonix
Jan 16, 2008, 10:15 AM
It's not like they have to charge $20.
They enabled n wireless for $1.99 for Intel Macs. They can do the same thing, $1.99, if it is just about they "have to" charge a fee.
$20 is pure extra profit. If they have sold 1M, then it will be $20M extre profit.

I urge iPod touch users NOT to buy.

oxygen8
Jan 16, 2008, 10:16 AM
would you rather have a 17 inch mbp @ $2800 or a 20 inch imac and mba @ $ 3000?

Dicx
Jan 16, 2008, 10:18 AM
Lucky they "forgot" when 5G iPod owners got gapless playback for free in a firmware update.


Gapless playback is an enhancement to the function of playing back music, which was already established in the iPod, doesn't count as a new appication.

I am not a lawyer or an accountant, just going by what lawyers and accountants have told me.

Loge
Jan 16, 2008, 10:27 AM
Gapless playback is an enhancement to the function of playing back music, which was already established in the iPod, doesn't count as a new appication.

I am not a lawyer or an accountant, just going by what lawyers and accountants have told me.

This is splitting hairs surely. It could be argued that wireless n is an enhancement to the function of wireless networking, which was already established in the computer, not a new function. :rolleyes:

some12b
Jan 16, 2008, 10:29 AM
It's not like they have to charge $20.
They enabled n wireless for $1.99 for Intel Macs. They can do the same thing, $1.99, if it is just about they "have to" charge a fee.
$20 is pure extra profit. If they have sold 1M, then it will be $20M extre profit.

I urge iPod touch users NOT to buy.




Think of it this way:

If you were Steve Jobs, how could you convince all the other board members NOT to take that extra $20M pure profit?

Stampyhead
Jan 16, 2008, 10:30 AM
...Dieux et Mon Droit, doesn't even work for the Queen of England anymore, it certainly doesn't for you, Mr. Jobs.

Sorry, I don't see how this applies to Apple charging you for a software upgrade. Plus, unless you are hindu and believe in many gods, the phrase is actually Dieu et Mon Droit.

wake6830
Jan 16, 2008, 10:31 AM
Can someone explain to me how the AppleTV is a subscription-model when the iPod Touch is not?

morespce54
Jan 16, 2008, 10:34 AM
View Post
The iPod touch does not fall under this model, and therefore under Apple's reasoning, a major feature upgrade must incur a charge.
So Macs are under the subscription model? Because they get constantly updated.

soooo true! :D


Edit: And renting movies or buying music on iTMS (to put on your iPod) doesn't fall under "ongoing flowing revenues" model? ;)

Virgil-TB2
Jan 16, 2008, 10:38 AM
... A lot of the digg community was extremely mad about this it seemed. ...The "Digg community" is basically just a bunch of dim, twenty-something American males though. ;)

Not representative of real thinking humans at all. Certainly a very narrow demographic at best.

Dicx
Jan 16, 2008, 10:39 AM
This is splitting hairs surely. It could be argued that wireless n is an enhancement to the function of wireless networking, which was already established in the computer, not a new function. :rolleyes:

I disagree, however what I was getting at is that this was an issue with lawyers and accountants, and not Steve putting his hand to his forehead and saying to the faithful "$20.00".

Kind of like Remy in Ratatouille checking for poison, that scene. That was my visual :)

cthorp
Jan 16, 2008, 10:40 AM
If someone paid for an iPod then they made the decision that the price was equal to what they were receiving. Deal was done get over it. Why do so many people expect handouts?

carlgo
Jan 16, 2008, 10:46 AM
Lots of posts saying apple is becoming greedy, in so many ways. I can't remember them ever giving anything away. Are some people crying over a Camalot that never existed?

Reminds me of hippies outside the gates at concerts wailing "music should be free, man".

CasinoOwl
Jan 16, 2008, 10:48 AM
If I had bought an iPod Touch and Apple offered me the chance to add the ability to send and receive mail on it for only $20, I would be pretty happy. I'm getting tired of hearing all this grumbling from people who have this sense of entitlement about things. You bought the Touch with the features it had and were happy enough to pay the price. Now you can have a better Touch for a small upgrade fee. I think it just kills people that someone else is getting what they got for a cheaper price. If this is the case, you should probably stop buying electronic gadgets.

Loge
Jan 16, 2008, 10:50 AM
I disagree, however what I was getting at is that this was an issue with lawyers and accountants, and not Steve putting his hand to his forehead and saying to the faithful "$20.00".

Kind of like Remy in Ratatouille checking for poison, that scene. That was my visual :)

I haven't seen that unfortunately. :) But it seems it will ultimately come down to some fairly arbitrary distinctions over what precisely is the function of a device. Something for lawyers to enjoy, I agree.

franzmueller
Jan 16, 2008, 10:53 AM
You know, I am shocked at the people who think that Apple is okay for charging $20 for an upgrade that should have been there in the first place.

There is NO other reason for this other than the fact that Apple is being greedy. These features should have been available in the first place, for free.


Why ?

for me it is an ipod with a wide screen.

Apple added wifi, safari,youtube,calculator all things all other ipods just DONT have.

and now you can have more apps for € 3,5 a piece .... for me more than reasonable for all these great apps.

AGAIN

its a ipod and not an iphone or a PDA

is just plain an

IPOD

got it ?

Saludos

Bosunsfate
Jan 16, 2008, 10:56 AM
I haven't read the ENTIRE thread, but the point to make is

The issue of Software Revenue Recognition rules and requirements is 100% valid. In order for apple to be able to BOOK all the revenue of the SALE of any product, there must be NO ADDITIONAL deliverable, consequential or INCONSEQUENTIAL in the future. Otherwise, a percent of REVENUE would have to be DEFERRED till such time that those items are DELIVERED, ACCEPTED and INSTALLED by the end user.

Such a scenario is bad for revenue timing, and REALLY bad for tracking of DELIVERY.

With a charge, (and it DOES have to be somewhat reasonable) it becomes a NEW REVENUE opportunity and a NEW DELIVERY with its OWN REVENUE SCHEDULE.

Remember the 802.11N update, that was 2.99$ or something crazy. SAME Thing.

It is just anothe reason why we HAVE to pay something for SOFTWARE upgrades, but not UPDATES

tivoboy, thank you for being the first person to finally inform people on this thread of why Apple had to charge for the upgrade. I can understand why people would not be familiar with this SEC rule.

But it is really important for users to understand that a public software company cannot give away free upgrades.

I have been trying to figure out why they thought the :apple:TV upgrade did not fall under SOX.

iliketomac
Jan 16, 2008, 10:56 AM
It's an iPod touch! :D

Spades
Jan 16, 2008, 10:57 AM
If you're moaning this time, fair enough, I get why you're upset, however please accept that this is now how apple do business and in future buy products based on what they are at the time you hand over the cash and don't expect that you'll get extra stuff for free down the line.

No, I'll continue buying products for the potential of what I can do with them. If this is Apple's new strategy, that just means I won't be buying from them.

GQB
Jan 16, 2008, 11:02 AM
No, I'll continue buying products for the potential of what I can do with them. If this is Apple's new strategy, that just means I won't be buying from them.

Get this through your head... this is the Regulatory Agencies' policy, not Apple's 'strategy'.
jeez.

tenneriffe
Jan 16, 2008, 11:06 AM
Not that anyone here really reads other peoples posts, so my expectations of eloquent discussion about this topic are non-existent - but there is a great reason why the $25 (Aus) ($20 US) is a rip off -

when my mates bought the touch, like me, they were sure that in time AT LEAST mail would be a simple software upgrade. This may be a naive view - but did anyone (a link to a post would be nice) predict that Apple would use a touch upgrade as a money making scheme?

hmmm... I will go back to READING what others think of themselves - oh and others.

gmanrique
Jan 16, 2008, 11:08 AM
there are a couple of things. There were apps and also OS features. If there will be an SDK and new apps are developed, it makes sense that you would have to pay for those. The thing is that the 1.1.3 upgrade did not include some basic (OS level) functionality that is part of it, like customization of icons location, and even the webclips (a safari upgrade since we already had that app), or lyrics thing fort the iPod app. It seems he OS features are something that would be useful later on when 3rd party apps are introduced. So, if the OS had been upgraded properly and for free (it is a minor upgrade hence the 1.1.3), then this would be a little different. You would judge if the apps were worth the $20 or not (I still think that Apple should had given this apps for free but that is another story). But it just does not feel right, especially cleverly (meaning with greed) choosing the Dec 27 as the cut date for start the free upgrade.

I cannot believe this, this isn't an upgrade, it is applications you can add to the touch. Do you think for a second that the apps published with the SDK will be free? The iPod Touch is just an mp3 player just like the Nano or the Classic. You should feel fortunate that it is expandable and that there are developers working on new applications for the device.

Google wrote the application, why shouldn't they be compensated for their time and development the same as any other software developer.

Just be glad you do have a iTouch that is expandable. Apple could have launched the iTouch II and included these features in that and left existing users in the dust....

IMHO, these applications are being developed now for the iTouch because of the iPhone's existence. if it weren't for the iPhone, there would be no iTouch to begin with.

guzhogi
Jan 16, 2008, 11:09 AM
nearly but not quite. the product is a combination of hardware and software. the argument that the hardware was capable of supporting n is undermined by the fact that (a) the software wasn't and therefore the product wasn't, and (b) they never sold it as a n compatible product.

reality is that a lot of products could do a lot more stuff if the software changed - that's what new versions are for. i could list a load of features i'd like in OSX which could be implemented without changing the hardware. doesn't mean i'm entitled to them.

the whole of the software industry relies on the fact that you write it once and then milk it. if an app is ported to the mac from the PC do you expect a discount because they had to do less work for the mac version?

why should the ipod be any different?

You're right. That's what I hate about capitalism. It makes people greedy. I'd like to know what it would be like if we had more of a socialism/meritocracy system. People get what they need to survive while people who work harder get rewarded for it. No freeloaders. People only get paid for by what they deserve. I personally don't think it's fair that CEOs get millions of dollars while the janitors don't even make $20,000 a year.

Good! I say make it $50 for whiners. All of you always want everything for free. If you can't afford it, or think it's unfair, BUY SOMETHING ELSE or don't buy anything at all.

I agree, people DO have a choice of whether to buy something or not. Whining won't solve anything. If you don't like it, do something about instead of just whining. On the other hand, people shouldn't be like how you are, being apathetic and being like "Oh, well. Everything's **** and nothing I can do about it." If you just sit on your hands and not buy anything, these companies probably will continue making **** products and you can get in trouble for not having a certain item/feature. I'll admit, I don't know how to make companies to do exactly what you want 100% of the time, but if you're truly concerned enough, do something about it. Just saying "That's life" and not buying isn't gonna cut it.

weezer160
Jan 16, 2008, 11:11 AM
I think the upgrade should be free, because I've already paid 400$ for a top of the line product and I don't see why I should pay more to get something another equally expensive product gets for free.

I guess that's the price of adopting early on a 1st gen product. Look at me: my 4 GB ram kit now costs $80 than when I bought it. I can't bitch.

sellitman
Jan 16, 2008, 11:12 AM
I think the upgrade should be free, because I've already paid 400$ for a top of the line product and I don't see why I should pay more to get something another equally expensive product gets for free.

Because your product's profit contribution stops at the sale. IPhone users who use att have a monthly contribution to Apple as long as they keep their service.

Project
Jan 16, 2008, 11:13 AM
I'm amazed that people expect this thing for free. A software update, yes. But 3 entirely new apps? LOL. Did Mac users get the new iLife with iWeb/Garageband respectively when they were launched? I am not counting the widgets.

Software costs money to develop. Do people believe that these things have no value because they are on a portable device? If so, why? And to the people saying that the iPhone got these for free, well that's not true. They were apps there from the beginning as part of the sale price and we continue to pay a premium to Apple each month.

If Apple were to give these for free (legal issues aside), it would be a nice gesture, not what was expected of them.

At least you get the opportunity to bring the Touch up to speed with the iPhone. Remember in the old days when you would need to buy a whole new iPod to get search and game functionality?

guzhogi
Jan 16, 2008, 11:14 AM
tivoboy, thank you for being the first person to finally inform people on this thread of why Apple had to charge for the upgrade. I can understand why people would not be familiar with this SEC rule.

But it is really important for users to understand that a public software company cannot give away free upgrades.

I have been trying to figure out why they thought the :apple:TV upgrade did not fall under SOX.

I agree. Companies should give away free updates for bug fixes and times they messed up. For upgrades that add new features, people should pay for it. I find a lot of things like this aren't totally black or totally white, but some shade of gray. I don't think everyone will have the same opinion on this so can we just agree to disagree & get over it?

Tyrannosaurs
Jan 16, 2008, 11:16 AM
You know, I am shocked at the people who think that Apple is okay for charging $20 for an upgrade that should have been there in the first place.

There is NO other reason for this other than the fact that Apple is being greedy. These features should have been available in the first place, for free.
Can someone explain why they "should" have been there?

I've never bought an MP3 player with the view that it should have a stocks app. Or maps. Or notes. If I had I'd have been massively dissappointed with my 3rd gen iPod and equally disappointed with my wife's new nano.

The iPod Touch was billed, launched and advertised as an iPod, not a cut down iPhone and as as an iPod it kicks ass, with or without 1.1.3.

Where did the idea that certain non-iPod related features "should" be part of it's feature set come from?

I think people are confusing what is possible with what should happen.

gmanrique
Jan 16, 2008, 11:16 AM
specially since the keynote usually take the full 2 hours. So it seems suspicious they announced Mac Pro upgrades a week before to make the keynote shorter, and then Boom, it was 25 minutes shorter than usual.

BTW, I don't believe the theory of 'stealing some thunder from CES'.

I think they pulled something from the keynote at the last minute

Finishing with Randy Newman!?! Come on...

I bet the record and /or movie studios pulled the pin on the pan European iTunes store or worldwide movie rentals at the last minute

Probably due to Fox and the combined iTunes/DVD

Apple are the whipping boy of the consumers who are still getting screwed by the demands of the out of touch big studios

BigHat
Jan 16, 2008, 11:17 AM
If it does not, it will be 20 bucks cheaper, so you can then pay for the upgrade on iTunes and net out the same.

The rest of this post is general and not directed at aznkid25 in particular...

It amazes me how many people in various threads are hammering apple for charging for this upgrade. Can someone show me where the iPod Touch marketing materials EVER said this was an upgradeable general purpose computing device?

People are so unbelievably unreasonable these days.


t

Because they're morons and/or cheapskates that have nothing better to do than sift through tons of great news and innovative products in search of some microscopic problem or sub-optimal decision.
No question in my mind, these same people would be b*tching that Apple should have offered a low cost ($20?) upgrade for their iPod Touch if Jobs hadn't announced the opportunity. It's not the issue at hand, it's their NEED to whine about something. I wish they'd all go buy a Zune and a Vista based PC and go torture Gates.

rd261
Jan 16, 2008, 11:18 AM
For those saying that ipod touch users are not paying what iphone users are paying:
True Im not paying 99 bucks to get a plan that I can easily get much cheaper from another company, that seems retarded to me but everyone has a different opinion. True Im not paying 400 bucks for the phone, but Im paying 300 for the ipod touch.
For those saying that ipod touch users do not need mail, maps, or notes:
Well technically thats true, we dont need them. But if we look at it from that perspective then we could easily say that iphone users dont need them either.

The bottom line is, we are not complaining about the 20 bucks, we are complaining because new buyers are getting the applications for free. We paid the same amount of money for the ipod, and it is the exact same product. There were no physical upgrades made to the product (so dont compare the ipod with a computer). They are basically charging the 20 bucks just because they want to screw up early buyers. Most of you saying its fair are saying so because you probably have the iphone; well how would you react if they had done the same to the iphone. I mean enough of you complained when they dropped the price after less than 2 months.

Tyrannosaurs
Jan 16, 2008, 11:23 AM
No, I'll continue buying products for the potential of what I can do with them. If this is Apple's new strategy, that just means I won't be buying from them.
fair enough.

i think what's gauled a lot of people is that this has kind of come out of the blue (the 802.11n upgrade aside). in future i won't say i won't buy apple products, i'll just know a little better precisely what i'm buying.

as is i bought an iPod touch, loved it, and don't resent the upgrade (which incidentally i have bought) because buying the touch at the time i bought it, with the functionality it had, for the price i payed was a good deal as far as i was concerned.

if people are going to get bent out of shape about the fact that someone some time later got a better deal they should never buy anything involving technology. everyone who has ever bought a digital camera will have found the guy who bought it 6 months later got a better deal or a better product. the fact it's software is neither here nor there - it's a product, the component parts are irrelevant.

killmoms
Jan 16, 2008, 11:25 AM
Most of you saying its fair are saying so because you probably have the iphone; well how would you react if they had done the same to the iphone. I mean enough of you complained when they dropped the price after less than 2 months.

They already ARE doing the same with the iPhone. They're getting money (to the tune of $240 by all reasonable guesses) over 2 years from AT&T that we pay. They're accounting for our purchase price over two years. There's our "subscription" to Apple for new software updates. Have we gotten 6 software updates with new features in the time the iPhone has been out? Nope. So we're already paying more than iPod touch owners for our software updates.

And we're fine with that.

Stop bitching.

(Some of us were also fine with the price cut. Such is the price of being an early adopter. The iPhone was worth it to me at launch at its price, so I bought it.)

southernpaws
Jan 16, 2008, 11:27 AM
why not have live gps?

Just saw a GPS device for the first time. (I live in the middle of nowhere in the country of Hungary.) My mother-in-law has one.

She paid for the ipod touch looking device, and it plays music, shows photos, has live GPS that even shows her street (in the middle of nowhere) and no monthly charges.

This is cool as can be. Its like the ipod touch (you touch and scroll the map with your finger, etc.), but the ipod touch doesnt have live GPS

Anyone, seriously, know why? Is this something to far fetched for apple.
I mean I live in the middle of nowhere and this technology exist...so is it a political one. (there ties with ATT and google) or whats up?

Someone that knows about this (probably most of you) please enlighten me.

Peace

dAlen


not sure if anybody has answered this yet. Doesn't having live gps (like in an actual gps device) require hardware (a gps chip) that is not in the ipod touch, nor in the iphone? that would make it far-fetched. and, while the price of gps chips are probably dropping, it's probably not yet low enough to make it cost efficient. They certainly weren't low enough to include when these products were debuted.

Rot'nApple
Jan 16, 2008, 11:31 AM
Why does everybody assume that $20 is fair??? I bought my iPod touch because I am on a college campus and can't afford the data plan the iPhone requires. Why does Apple consider my product differently? $20 means a lot to me. Not to mention that this iPod touch thing keeps screwing me over. No apps? $20 upgrade for capability it should have had from the beginning? Apple is ubiquitous in the academic environment, but they just refuse to show me any love. If only Apple had heard of Google's mantra - don't be evil!

To put it succinctly - why is the iPod touch being treated like a bastard sibling of the iPhone instead of the brother it really is??

Reading your post, I just had to laugh. It seems so typical of a lot of young people in America today. It also brought back so many memories of my college days and memories of attitudes and positions I once took, where when I look upon them today, makes me quiver.

It's been 20 years since I have been out of college, but I remember when certain calculators for math or science courses were required. Have things changed in today's college enviroment that an iPod touch is required matriculation for today's universities? What of the students who can't afford one, do they have to drop out of school, change majors or change to universities not requiring an iPod of any kind?

I love the whole, I'm too impoverished for an iPhone/AT&T plan, but I am affluent enough for an iPod Touch but then complain about Apple's remunerative iPod touch software update.

Also, by chance, are you from Missouri? You know it has the motto as the "Show Me" state. I was curious when I read in your post, "Apple is ubiquitous in the academic environment, but they just refuse to show me any love." rather than "Apple refuses to show all iPod Touch owners any love." Why narrow it down to just "you" as if you are the only one entitled. Stating it that way can mislead one to define you as a self righteous, selfish person. You don't want that misrepresentation do you?

And if by "$20 means a lot to me." but you are fortunate enough to have parents who are financially able and willing to pay the high cost of college, then, really, what is twenty bucks in todays terms relating to most, but not all, college students in their late teens and early twenties? Buying less than half a tank of gas to cruise around town? Going to the movies or dinner with a date for one evening? Going to a local club for dancing and drinking? Saving money for "Spring Break"?

Or if by "$20 means a lot to me." and you are working two or three jobs to make ends meet for tuition and/or room and board, while admirable to pay your own way, kind of foolish to pay $300.00 or $400.00 for an electronic gadget, especially if it is not required during your tenure at your university where text books for the classes you are enrolled in and pen and paper for taking notes, writing reports, etc. are.

It doesn't sound like you need to be "shown the love" or worry about if Apple is aware of Google's mantra "don't be evil" but rather, well, if it has to be spelled out for you this late in the game, why bother...:(

Rather your rant seems like a typical young American who thinks they are "Owed Something". I was there once myself (starting to quiver in disbelief). Most, not all people, gradually get fixed of this notion once out in the Real World, where other priorities take more credence than worrying about having to pay for a software update. Over time, it did for me. Hopefully, over time, for you too.

Tyrannosaurs
Jan 16, 2008, 11:32 AM
The bottom line is, we are not complaining about the 20 bucks, we are complaining because new buyers are getting the applications for free. We paid the same amount of money for the ipod, and it is the exact same product. There were no physical upgrades made to the product (so dont compare the ipod with a computer). They are basically charging the 20 bucks just because they want to screw up early buyers. Most of you saying its fair are saying so because you probably have the iphone; well how would you react if they had done the same to the iphone. I mean enough of you complained when they dropped the price after less than 2 months.
do you genuinely think that apple sit around and go "let's screw the early adopters?"

when i bought my macbook apple released OSX10.5 just 4 months later. should they have given me that free?

i suppose you could take the approach that microsoft took with vista - that the "early adopters" who bought PCs before vista came out and have XP are rewarded with not having to put up with vista... but personally i'd rather go for a company whose products get better over time not worse, even if that occassionally means the next guy gets a slightly better deal than i did.

robanga
Jan 16, 2008, 11:32 AM
It's all about revenue recognition and accounting rules. As others have noted iPhone and ATV have a subscription component to them (either iTunes, AT&T wireless or both)

This means they have to be accounted for in a different and less attractive way than iPods, iMacs etc.

In order to use the better accounting rules for iPods, Apple must charge for upgrades plain and simple and they must make it more than just a "token or nominal $ 2 thing" or they could be called on it.

Paying for significant software upgrades is a part of the future on all non-subscription based products.

EagerDragon
Jan 16, 2008, 11:34 AM
Regardless of what we think, Apple made a decision not to include those apps/features in the first version of the touch.

The idea was to deferenciate the products better and that is a decision that is up to Apple to make.

If they want to charge 20 dollars for old systems, that is their decision to make. If you don't like it, dont pay it, vote with your wallet, just like all consumers should always do. For example .... I want a true GPS with turn by turn directions in the iPhone and I will not get one until if has it, if it never does then I don't get it, simple.

BellyAchking solves nothing.

Project
Jan 16, 2008, 11:34 AM
The bottom line is, we are not complaining about the 20 bucks, we are complaining because new buyers are getting the applications for free. We paid the same amount of money for the ipod, and it is the exact same product.

This is absurd.

Are you saying that Apple are not allowed to add greater functionality to products as time goes by and maintain the same price point?

Put it this way. You go into the store 12 months ago and picked up Tiger. You pay $129 for it. 6 months later, Leopard is out. Should you get the Leopard features for free?

Software development costs money.

Tyrannosaurs
Jan 16, 2008, 11:35 AM
not sure if anybody has answered this yet. Doesn't having live gps (like in an actual gps device) require hardware (a gps chip) that is not in the ipod touch, nor in the iphone? that would make it far-fetched. and, while the price of gps chips are probably dropping, it's probably not yet low enough to make it cost efficient. They certainly weren't low enough to include when these products were debuted.

the iphone uses a combination of cell phone masts and public wi-fi hot spots to determine the location.

the ipod touch just uses the wi-fi hot spots...

theBB
Jan 16, 2008, 11:36 AM
The bottom line is, we are not complaining about the 20 bucks, we are complaining because new buyers are getting the applications for free. We paid the same amount of money for the ipod, and it is the exact same product. There were no physical upgrades made to the product (so dont compare the ipod with a computer). They are basically charging the 20 bucks just because they want to screw up early buyers. Most of you saying its fair are saying so because you probably have the iphone; well how would you react if they had done the same to the iphone. I mean enough of you complained when they dropped the price after less than 2 months.
Umm, Dell adjusts its prices up and down on hardware constantly, so do cell phone companies. As time passes electronics cost less. Some companies reduce prices and some keep the price the same, but offer additional features. In this case, Apple went with the latter approach. You are only entitled what you agree to during a transaction. Companies may offer more later as good will or for good PR, but that's up to them.

iPhone price drop was 33% after two months, touch price adjustment is 5% after about 3-4 months.

robanga
Jan 16, 2008, 11:43 AM
the iphone uses a combination of cell phone masts and public wi-fi hot spots to determine the location.

the ipod touch just uses the wi-fi hot spots...

It's also worth noting that a GPS chip which costs maybe $ 15-30 in large quanities requires its own little antenna, power leads, and real estate space on the motherboard. It also requires extra emissions testing etc.

If location can be accomplished only using the WIFI and Cellular radios and it's reasonably accurate, who needs GPS on a phone?

EagerDragon
Jan 16, 2008, 11:43 AM
Can anyone tell how updating of Touch is going to work?

Are there two versions let say 1.1.3. free and 1.1.3 Plus (with iPhone apps) at 20$... or there's only one 1.1.3 which you can get only by paying 20$...

This makes me uncomfortable - if any other update is gonna be paid - how about bug fixes? And what is more important how am I supposed to get these extra fitures if in my country there's no iTunes Store but iPod Touch is sold officially. How am I supposed to pay?

Just a guess on my part ...... Apple separates bug fixes from apps. Apps are sold by the iTunes store (just like they do with games), patches are downloaded and applied by the iTune store at no charge. However later patches may contain fixes to the apps that you have not payed for, as such the patch may or may not apply that set of patches since the apps are missing, but the rest of the patches will be applied.

massib80
Jan 16, 2008, 11:48 AM
Tyrannosaurs....
explain why: the mony that people spend on iTunes for buy music for their iPod Touch is not the same that the mony that people spend for movie rental in Apple TV.

Explain me why... the "feature" to add events to Calendar on iPod Touch wasn't charged at ALL

Uncle Steve just want to find a way to earn easy mony on iPod Touch users that doesn't pay him through the AT&T or Orange or O2 contracts.

Tell me what you want... but this 20$ are not in any way something "resonable" at least to ME!

RIP.

jlbrown23
Jan 16, 2008, 11:49 AM
Guys - you forget that the 20$ update is the problem only for those who already have the device.

Why new users of the same product (!!!!) should get it bundled and others not?
It's not iPod Touch 2 or something - but for some of us it should apply some extra charges. WHY?

If you bought a Mac on Oct 20, you got Tiger. If you bought one on Oct 30, you got Leopard.

To me the irritating thing Apple did was not include the Apps on the Touch in the first place. They should have. But now people should know the risk of being early adopters. I complained about the lack of iPhone apps when I bought my Touch back in Sept - I saw it as intentionally crippling a device for no good reason(never bought the iPhone sales argument - if you want a PHONE you are going to buy a PHONE). Now that Apple is offering me what I wanted for a pittance(and no whining about "it may be nothing to you!" If you have $400 to spend on a frivolous toy, $20 isn't going to keep food off of your table), I bought it as fast as I could get to a computer. I think it seems slightly unfair that new Touch owners get it free, but if I look at it as a price break(Touch price reduced from $400 to $380 4 months after its release), it doesn't really seem unfair any more.

Jaymes
Jan 16, 2008, 11:49 AM
Apple should have never given out the iPhone rebates. Now every time they decide to charge for something, change the price on something, or in some way try to make an improvement in an existing product to generate new sales, people who already own said product are going to whine and cry in hopes that Apple caves and gives them something for free. Pathetic.

Apple never said they'd have Mail or GPS support on the iPod Touch. The expectation that they would somehow just dole out Mail and GPS support for free after awhile is naive. Go price a GPS unit someplace, and then start crying about $20. If anything, you're getting a steal. Apple could have charged $20 per app, and it still would have been a bargain as compared to other software titles out there.

If I go buy a Nintendo DS, do I expect Nintendo to give me free copies of every in-house game they develop? Somehow, I think Nintendo isn't going to do that.

All this extra software is optional. If you don't want to pay the $20, then no one is forcing you to do so! Get a grip. I am so tired of people thinking software should be free all the time. Sure, if someone wants to release something open source, then it's free. Obviously, Apple chose not to do that, so you need to pay a license fee!

And let's be clear about one thing as well. This is not a software upgrade/update/etc, this is additional software. Your iPod touch will function fine with or without this software! I agree that patches/update should be free, but this is no such thing.

Sheesh - next you know people will be lining up in front of Apple looking for government cheese and butter.

robanga
Jan 16, 2008, 11:54 AM
[QUOTE=Jaymes;4770655]Apple should have never given out the iPhone rebates. Now every time they decide to charge for something, change the price on something, or in some way try to make an improvement in an existing product to generate new sales, people who already own said product are going to whine and cry in hopes that Apple caves and gives them something for free. QUOTE]

Have to say that I agree with you. These rather endless threads about Apple, Micorsoft, whomever disregarding "loyal" customers just because they bring out better things, less expensive is just silly. For the life of my I can not understand the argument. I have an open mind to it, but can never even come close to empathy on the thing.

pubius
Jan 16, 2008, 11:55 AM
Locate me tool - Great feature, but it would have been a lot helpful if it were on my iPhone like a month ago! I spent christmas in New York, and I got totally lost at one point in the upper east side, and it took me forever to find out where I was... So I had to improvise... (Long story).
yeah... in these times just remember to kick it old school. forever? uh, new york is a grid based system with numbered streets. higher numbers = north, lower numbers = south. so one block north or south would have told you roughly where you are (y axis) and the upper east side is (at it's largest point) is only 9 blocks wide (x axis). plus there are 5 million people in manhattan to ask (you know, on the street, personable style). any one of those ways should have been an easy fix. again, forever?

didn't mean to come down on you. but come on. these gps systems are nice, but let's remember not to totally rely on them.

EagerDragon
Jan 16, 2008, 11:56 AM
Not that anyone here really reads other peoples posts, so my expectations of eloquent discussion about this topic are non-existent - but there is a great reason why the $25 (Aus) ($20 US) is a rip off -

when my mates bought the touch, like me, they were sure that in time AT LEAST mail would be a simple software upgrade. This may be a naive view - but did anyone (a link to a post would be nice) predict that Apple would use a touch upgrade as a money making scheme?

hmmm... I will go back to READING what others think of themselves - oh and others.

Part 1 of your assumption (mail will be added later) was correct, part 2 was also correct. However it is free for new purchases. Yes a little naive but very close.

Apple does not like to lower prices, Apple prefers to give you more for the same price or to split the difference ($500 enhancement and raise price by 250). Take a look at the Mac Pro as an example of that.

Prediction is the same as tossing a coin and calling it. The only way you will be correct fairly consistently is if you have insider information.

Buy items that meet your needs today and for the next year, always expect to be left behind the curve of new products, expect new products will give you more for the same amount or a little more and you will be happy with Apple. Never buy something that does not meet your needs in the hope that changes in the future.

jashic
Jan 16, 2008, 12:02 PM
"Never buy something that does not meet your needs in the hope that changes in the future. "

so true.

To all others who bought a tough but are disappointed in Apple, there is always ebay where you can sell your device and go buy the MS Zune at discount.

we can scream and rant all we want. In the end, $20 is what they are charging. If it was unreasonable, we wouldn't upgrade. Supply and demand. As long as there are people out there that disagree with the whiners, the whiners can sit back and not upgrade and continue whining while those who buy will enjoy their new apps.

The laws of supply and demand are very basic.

DisturbedLen
Jan 16, 2008, 12:07 PM
I don't think Google Maps on the iPhione is the same as on other phones...

I can't figure out how to get the blue location dot on the iPhone. I can get the circle location, but in order to get the Blue Dot to estimate your location, Google Help says to press "0" on your keypad. Well, there is not a keypad available. If you've ever used Google Maps on another phone, you'll know what I mean.

This "throbbing" dot is supposed to "move" with you as you drive. (http://www.google.com/mobile/gmm/mylocation/index.html) I have not seen that. The circle is stationary and I must press the location icon to refresh my location.

On a blackberry, your location is in the circle. Someplace in the circle (usually on the road) there is a throbbing blue dot that estimates your location. As you drive, both the circle and the blue dot updates. It does not update every second like GPS, it's more like every few minutes. It is really cool functionality and I was looking forward to seeing it on the iphone.

guzhogi
Jan 16, 2008, 12:11 PM
If you bought a Mac on Oct 20, you got Tiger. If you bought one on Oct 30, you got Leopard.

I don't think the line between getting things too early and then having to pay for the new features and getting the features for free will never be totally clear. No one will be able to agree on it. Both sides should play fair though. The company should respect the early adopters since they tend to be the most loyal and can be the guinea pigs so they shouldn't reduce the price by so much so soon. For the consumer, just realize that things progress & change. No stopping it. Just need to adapt and see if you can make it change for the better.

To me the irritating thing Apple did was not include the Apps on the Touch in the first place. They should have. But now people should know the risk of being early adopters. I complained about the lack of iPhone apps when I bought my Touch back in Sept - I saw it as intentionally crippling a device for no good reason(never bought the iPhone sales argument - if you want a PHONE you are going to buy a PHONE). Now that Apple is offering me what I wanted for a pittance(and no whining about "it may be nothing to you!" If you have $400 to spend on a frivolous toy, $20 isn't going to keep food off of your table), I bought it as fast as I could get to a computer. I think it seems slightly unfair that new Touch owners get it free, but if I look at it as a price break(Touch price reduced from $400 to $380 4 months after its release), it doesn't really seem unfair any more.

Apple should have never given out the iPhone rebates. Now every time they decide to charge for something, change the price on something, or in some way try to make an improvement in an existing product to generate new sales, people who already own said product are going to whine and cry in hopes that Apple caves and gives them something for free. Pathetic.

Apple never said they'd have Mail or GPS support on the iPod Touch. The expectation that they would somehow just dole out Mail and GPS support for free after awhile is naive. Go price a GPS unit someplace, and then start crying about $20. If anything, you're getting a steal. Apple could have charged $20 per app, and it still would have been a bargain as compared to other software titles out there.

If I go buy a Nintendo DS, do I expect Nintendo to give me free copies of every in-house game they develop? Somehow, I think Nintendo isn't going to do that.

All this extra software is optional. If you don't want to pay the $20, then no one is forcing you to do so! Get a grip. I am so tired of people thinking software should be free all the time. Sure, if someone wants to release something open source, then it's free. Obviously, Apple chose not to do that, so you need to pay a license fee!

And let's be clear about one thing as well. This is not a software upgrade/update/etc, this is additional software. Your iPod touch will function fine with or without this software! I agree that patches/update should be free, but this is no such thing.

Sheesh - next you know people will be lining up in front of Apple looking for government cheese and butter.

I agree, these programs should've been available on the Ipod Touch in the 1st place. Architecturally, it's the same thing as an iPhone minus the phone hardware. Just because you wouldn't use it doesn't mean everyone else won't. If you don't want it, don't use the features. Since these apps are the same on both devices, it's only fair that both should've gotten the apps @ the same time. Same thing with the 802.11n enabler. Apple should've just included the functionality from the beginning, not after you release them. Apps/hardware that already existed should be totally there & functional from the get go. Anything new people should pay for. With the iPhone giving Apple payment every month, I can see the price on new software for that subsidized or something, but for software you don't even have to change, that's a little greedy IMO.

Also, for those that say that the iPod Touch is only an iPod which means it should only play music/videos, may I ask why? Just curious. Not meaning to flame anyone, I just want to know. And why can't other people use it as a PDA or something? Why can't you just be live and let live and let other people use it the way they want w/o complaining about it? And to those people, don't complain if you change it and a new firmware update comes out & wrecks it. You know what, it happens. Just let Apple and whoever makes the broken software know that it doesn't work and hope they fix it. If not, maybe learn how to program and make your own programs. Apple's delivering an SDK next month so it's possible.

EagerDragon
Jan 16, 2008, 12:14 PM
I have a Palm device and Google Maps works great and uses the GPS in the phone and I paid zero for it. Apple added the enhancement of WIFI towers to make it more accurate in locations close to a WIFI hot spot. By itself it may not be worth 20, but there are more features / apps there to bring the value up.

For those complaining, have you ever purchase apps like email and games for your previous smart phones? You may have noticed that a lot of those apps were 6 to 25 dollars EACH and there were some people selling bundles with some very weak applications to raise the value of the purchase.

20 is dirt cheap for so many good apps, guys.

xDANx
Jan 16, 2008, 12:22 PM
The comments by people who expect us all to be modern day mindless consumers are mis-guided and unreasonable. To say "you get exactly what you paid for at the time of sale" is to completely miss the point.

As a group of technically minded people, we are interested in using our technology and pushing it as far as possible (without breaking it, hopefully). We don't like to see our gadgets artificially restricted, and we have known all along that there was no technical reason that Mail and Notes (in particular) could not be on the iPod touch.

We jail break, chip and otherwise hack our gadgets because that is just what we do, and we always will. Even if the iPod touch had these apps from the start, jail break would still exist because we want to push it further still.

I think the reason that many people are dismayed by the $20 upgrade ($25 in the UK) is that this is a bit sneaky and a bit Microsoft-ish. Microsoft are in the business of releasing important software upgrades and leaving old versions to fester in the hope that you spend more cash. Apple seem to be doing more of that too.

Just to push the thought a bit further, in my grandparents' day everything that you bought was an opportunity to 'hack' and modify. Anything that broke was invariably repaired in a 'hackerish' manner, and anything that could be improved upon almost certainly was. That's just the way life is.

Let's hope the SDK rocks. If Apple get that right, it'll change everything.

that's the most sensible thing anyone's written about the ipod touch $20 debacle so far...!

Bosunsfate
Jan 16, 2008, 12:26 PM
I agree. Companies should give away free updates for bug fixes and times they messed up. For upgrades that add new features, people should pay for it. I find a lot of things like this aren't totally black or totally white, but some shade of gray. I don't think everyone will have the same opinion on this so can we just agree to disagree & get over it?

Yea, my point was that there is a law that requires a public company to charge for upgrades.

How much they charge is another question. As for debating that, I'm not really interested. :cool:

guzhogi
Jan 16, 2008, 12:39 PM
that's the most sensible thing anyone's written about the ipod touch $20 debacle so far...!

I concur. It does seem like Apple's been screwing people over so they can charge more for something. Kinda sad.

As for what Adrian said about in our grandparents' day, lots of things were hackable. My Grandfather used to work at Zenith and had a laboratory in his basement at home. He made his own electronic organ and cement mixer and stuff. It was awesome. If he were still alive today, I'm sure he would've gotten into computers. In the school district I work for, we have this repair guy who fixes printers, overhead projectors and pretty much anything electric. His repairs are very McGyver-ish. It's awesome. I wish I had his skills.

Stampyhead
Jan 16, 2008, 12:46 PM
No, I'll continue buying products for the potential of what I can do with them. If this is Apple's new strategy, that just means I won't be buying from them.

Whew, that's a relief. One less whiner to have to deal with in these threads.

hiptobesquare
Jan 16, 2008, 12:47 PM
I had been waiting to see the keynote for news on this topic.

I have an ATT phone that I bought cheap. I bought ATT so that I would be able to upgrade to an iPhone later on, if I want, without contract problems.

But I am also considering an iPod Touch, and keeping my little samsung phone separately. I haven't yet decided.

I don't think the negatives here are out of line. I think the 20$ is a bad move.

I can see an argument for paying for the software, and I can understand some of the issues for software licensing, and I know SOX is causing all kinds of trouble for all kinds of companies.

But I think the big thing is this: Perceived insult.

A bunch of people bought a new product from Apple, and helped make Apple's quarterly reports favorable, and supported a new, revolutionary product.

Now, they are retroactively being charged for something that is NOT being charged for new buyers as of today, if they buy a new item with the software installed. The price of the new iPT has not gone up correspondingly. (and the profit margin on that device is likely enough for Apple to provide this software update for free. The development costs of these apps are already on the amortization schedule, and can be covered by Apple's profit margins.)

It isn't a fair application. It is apple's prerogative to be unfair, and to have their reasons for it. But people have a right to remember Apple being unfair the next time apple wants people to early-adopt one of their new products. Like MacBook Air, for instance. If it can't be a free update (which the iPhone is getting with 1.1.3) then it would almost have been better if the iPT price went up by the same $20, even if it drops again in the future.

It is a perception of lack of any form of gratitude or grace by only charging 20$ from people who did step up and support apple in the past.

20$ is not the end of the world. A couple of grocery store meals instead of restaurants could easily cover it. It is the perception of lack of manners that seems to tick people off.

This isn't a new argument, anyway. People have been bemoaning the lack of these apps since day one. That is one of the big reasons I have yet to buy either an iPhone or an iPodTouch.

I don't like Apple's confiscatory plan arrangement along with paying full price for a phone (when others are subsidized, and more cheaply, by the phone plan), nor do I like their closed hand dealings with only offering their product with one wireless vendor. I don't like it, but the iPhone might be worth living with it.

I don't like the handicaps of the iPhone in the memory department, inferior cellular data speed (no 3G yet), and no stereo bluetooth on a phone that CLEARLY is also a music player, and marketed as "everything in one." Everything in one, except that it doesn't do things that several other phones do, in terms of media devices, something that the iPhone should excel at.

I haven't liked that the iPodTouch is just as capable a device (and better looking, IMHO, than the iphone) for what it does, and has been handicapped by Apple with fewer apps, which this update addresses. The question is, does the iPT's memory capacity offset the connectivity outside of wifi areas. Now that iPT does come with those apps built into the price, it is that much more attractive. But it still requires me to carry, manage, and not lose another device, a cell phone.

Apple is improving it. iPT deserves this update. The iPhone deserves the hardware update that is rumored to be coming. But I hope Apple doesn't spoil it's public good will. After all, people complain about things they care about. They don't bother complaining about things they don't care about. A lot of Apple complaints is almost an underlying complement, because people care enough about Apple products to want them to be as good as possible.

If they continue to 'appear' to be slapping their early adopters, they bite the hand that feeds them.

And they shouldn't have randy newman perform like that again, either. Apple doesn't want that kind of political divisiveness. People of all political stripes like Apple products, and it is counterproductive to put half of them off via the political diatribe of the other side. There are plenty of other venues for political discussion.

apple-science
Jan 16, 2008, 01:06 PM
All companies "take advantage" of early adopters by charging more initially than later. But they are not forcing the early adopters to buy. Why do early adopters pay more? Because they want the latest fad/toy/gadget/gizmo/device and are willing to pay for it. The MacBook Air will come down in price or will have more capabilities in the next 6-9 months. Apple is only doing what profitable companies do all the time - provide compelling products that people want. People have as much right to whine as Apple has to charge for something it produces.

If $20 is too much, don't pay. You actually have a choice. Whereas new buyers of the Touch are, in essence, forced to buy the apps rather than take a $20 discount.

Entitlement is not a way to win an argument.

diamond.g
Jan 16, 2008, 01:28 PM
Has anyone noticed that the 1.1.3 update with and without extra apps are the same size? I am hearing that the apps are on all the iPT's but is only visible with an updated plist file. Can anyone confirm or deny?

hiptobesquare
Jan 16, 2008, 01:30 PM
All companies "take advantage" of early adopters by charging more initially than later. But they are not forcing the early adopters to buy. Why do early adopters pay more? Because they want the latest fad/toy/gadget/gizmo/device and are willing to pay for it. The MacBook Air will come down in price or will have more capabilities in the next 6-9 months. Apple is only doing what profitable companies do all the time - provide compelling products that people want. People have as much right to whine as Apple has to charge for something it produces.

If $20 is too much, don't pay. You actually have a choice. Whereas new buyers of the Touch are, in essence, forced to buy the apps rather than take a $20 discount.

Entitlement is not a way to win an argument.

This isn't quite the same as that, although similar. It certainly is not an entitlement. It is however a precedent.

Most iPod software updates that are compatible with the hardware have previously been free. Now it is not free, unless you buy a new iPod Touch, in which it is the same price as it has always been, making the software update, essentially free for those who have yet to buy.

I said, it is apple's prerogative to charge what ever they want. But it is their loyal fan base to lose. The bad-will effect may lose more future revenue than this little 20$ fee that only applies to people who have already bought iPod Touches. This one particularly will not apply to anyone else into the future.

Apple can charge what they want, people can choose whether or not to upgrade or not. You are perfectly correct.

But good will, brand loyalty, and other non-tangibles are at play. And threatening that with retroactive-only charges, is not always worth poisoning that well just for the small revenue right now from a small cadre of people who bought an expensive, cool toy early.

aplCORnuthnMOR
Jan 16, 2008, 01:54 PM
while i agree that we are not entitled to these apps, the lack of an email client on the original release was a determining factor in not purchasing an iPod touch, for me. still waiting on a chat client. iChat lite perhaps? widgets alone are worth $20 to me.

what irks me more than this software is that when you buy a new mac, you get software that is usually newer than your existing machines. therefore, even though you have the software in your possession, you have to purchase it again :eek: to use the same version on all of your machines. I know you can copy over the app and relevant files to your other machine, but even adobe allows you to use the software on multiple machines as long as you don't use them simultaneously.

pocketrockets
Jan 16, 2008, 01:54 PM
Ok here's the thing that bugs me the most, and I'm surprised no one has said this yet:

I would 100% rather have Apple make EVERY ipod touch user pay the $20 for the upgrade if they decide to, even those who buy it in the future, UNTIL they come out with the new model (~Sept 2008). That would make much more sense.

Stu-Duncan
Jan 16, 2008, 02:10 PM
I bought an ipod Touch in September and I love it. Like most people, I could see that Apple had "de-selected" some iPhone apps from the Touch (presumably to make the iPhone look a better buy). I expected that Apple would let us obtain some or all of the missing apps at some point. So I was thrilled to be able to buy them last night.

I can't get upset at Apple charging $20 or £12.99 for them, they are well worth the cost. This expectation that everything should be free is ridiculous. Download and try them - Google Maps with integration into Address book is simply stunning and super fast. Mail - just what I wanted. And notes.

When I bought my Touch, I had no promise that I would get the extra apps, and even though I guessed they would become available, I had no idea when. Paying $20 now is a lot better than waiting another 6 months and getting them free.

entspeak
Jan 16, 2008, 02:32 PM
If I purchased an iPod Touch within the 14 days allowed for return, I'd take it back or ask for the discount as a credit towards purchase of the upgrade software.

As it is, I got mine for X-mas, so I'm in no position to complain. $20 bucks is worth it for me. The fact that they've included a way to locate me via wi-fi for the maps is also a big plus.

I see this platform really taking off for a lot of things... PocketQuicken for iPhone/iPod Touch would be great.

pmoeser
Jan 16, 2008, 03:17 PM
I bought my iPod form Germany and I live in Romania I have no option to buy that update. In Apple's vision some customers are more customers than others. Not to mention that "special" 20$ update issue. What a disgrace for all the customers what a shame!

I will make a complaint to European Union for unfair commercial practices for that 20$ surcharge and for discrimination within EU economic space. Please contact the European Union board under Meglena Kuneva Commissioner.
For all the europeans please fill up the complaint against Apple.Inc

http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/index_en.htm

As a customer I have the right to be customer! Apple did not think of that.

You need to have a long hard think about it before doing this.

Apple have every right to charge for the software upgrade.

Far more intelligent people than me have already laid out reasoned arguments in this post.

Your actions will do nothing other than increase the cost of Apple products for the rest of us. And waste the EUs time and resources.

morespce54
Jan 16, 2008, 03:49 PM
Maybe they could give all us iPod touch upgraders some free game credit when they finally get games

hey, maybe with the new apple-price-scheme, you will have to pay to be able to have the right to buy some games... ;)
/sarcasm

JGShort
Jan 16, 2008, 03:56 PM
Probably not:
We have heard that all current iPod touch models already in the distribution channel without the new software have been immediately discounted by $20 to accommodate for the upgrade fee.

OK, I was probably stupid for receiving an Apple Gift Card from my folks for Christmas and then using it just before New Years for 2 IPod Touches (for me and my wife). Since I ordered them from the Online Store to be laser engraved and was even more stupid to sign up for the two-day delivery option over the holiday. However, as I tracked its delivery progress, I was able to watch it come straight to me from China via Alaska, it actually took 4 days to be delivered to me. The point here is that if you order online after the changeover date, your iPod Touch will probably come to you straight from China with all the latest stuff.

Yes, I am paying the extra $20 for the new software. I had some complication because the iPod would not update until I had updated iTunes to 7.6 first, then I needed restore the IPod, which took a long time. But it did finally finish loading and I think I am happy with the new software (I have not completely tested it yet). I have some wifi hotspots about me, but I do not know the passwords for them. I need more practice with the touch keyboard, but I think it far the Palm Pilot stylus keyboard I had used before (ok, long ago). I wish the new Notes application had the ability to use text files like they had in the older iPod. Maybe that is coming.

Now, tonight, I will be ready to try upgrading the software on my wife's unit. I have already upgraded to iTunes 7.6 and downloaded the iPod 1.1.3 firmware, so I hope that it will be faster and smoother this time. It will also be interesting to see if the iPod software updater is smart enough to detect the two iPod Serial Numbers and charge me another $20 for hers (probably so).

We must always remember the risk of trying to live at the cutting edge of consumer technology. That is that no sooner do we pay extra money to enjoy the privilege of owning the latest stuff, then it becomes obsolete so much faster. Each person must decide how much this risk is worth. On the one hand, I do not really like spending more of my money in this way; on the other hand, in this case, $20 does not seem excessive to me.

Oh well, to each his or her own! So much for another posting of ranting and raving!

:) :apple:

carlostsr
Jan 16, 2008, 04:10 PM
You need to have a long hard think about it before doing this.

Apple have every right to charge for the software upgrade.

Far more intelligent people than me have already laid out reasoned arguments in this post.

Your actions will do nothing other than increase the cost of Apple products for the rest of us. And waste the EUs time and resources.

Wrong ! You live a totally different reality over there Sir! Because of many complaints about Apple's pricing policies in EU the EU Commission acted and Apple from this year has implemented one price per song across Europe's iTunes Store. The second implementation it is on the way with forcing Apple to open one single iTunes Store Europa.
As a EU citizen I have the right to buy things from a German e-store without being questioned about sex, race, hair colour or address, and I cannot be refused in a e-store in France because I am from Romania.
Making impossible for a french person to buy songs from iTunes Store in Sweden is illegal within the Union. Within the Union we have no taxes no charges, no borders, no questions. It is my right to update my product if I want to, but Apple ignores a lot of countries from the EU like Lithuania, Letonia, Estonia, Poland , Czech R, Slovenia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Slovenia, providing e-stores just for the old members of the Union. This is a discriminatory policy and it will be charged by the EU Commission. Apple is guilty for surcharging people, unfair use of DRM and other unfair policies.

Spades
Jan 16, 2008, 04:10 PM
Whew, that's a relief. One less whiner to have to deal with in these threads.

At least somebody is happy about this situation. :p