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Parsa
Oct 13, 2003, 12:50 PM
I'm sure somebody has asked this before, but it's a simple question, so I hope someone can give a quick answer.

I have a Al Powerbook 12" connected via an ethernet cable to my Zoom cable modem. I also have an older PowerComputing clone and I want to hook it up for my kids to use if I'm using the PowerBook.

What hardware do I need? Do I need a cable router?

Steve

stoid
Oct 13, 2003, 01:05 PM
You need an ethernet switch, you should be able to get one for 20-40 dollars.

You DON'T want a router, because they are against the service agreements from most companies.

whocares
Oct 13, 2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by stoid
You need an ethernet switch, you should be able to get one for 20-40 dollars.

You DON'T want a router, because they are against the service agreements from most companies.

Will both machines be able to connect to the net w/o a router?
Where will the second mechine's IP come from? Or can they share the IP given by the ISP?

Gymnut
Oct 13, 2003, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by stoid
You need an ethernet switch, you should be able to get one for 20-40 dollars.

You DON'T want a router, because they are against the service agreements from most companies.

How are they against the service agreements from most companies? If that were the case then there wouldn't be so many manufactuers selling routers. In regards to the question at hand, if you want your kids to access the internet while you're on, which is what I'm asuming, the router is the way to go.

whocares
Oct 13, 2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Gymnut
How are they against the service agreements from most companies? If that were the case then there wouldn't be so many manufactuers selling routers. In regards to the question at hand, if you want your kids to access the internet while you're on, which is what I'm asuming, the router is the way to go.

I think they're against agreements as they allow you to share internet connections, and your standard agreement with an ISP is internet access for *one* computer :mad:

Lanbrown
Oct 13, 2003, 01:34 PM
In that case they would not allow MS products on their networks as some of them have ICS. If the ISP's didn't want you to use a router are they going to cover the expense to make sure that your computer is secure? Most routers have a firewall built-in. If they required every computer to have it's own IP, they would run out of IP's.

thehuncamunca
Oct 13, 2003, 02:12 PM
a router is the way to go, i have comcast and while they don't official support routers (ie if you have a problem with your connection they will troubleshoot it for the one computer you're supposed to have connected to the internet) routers work fine with the service

jt23
Oct 13, 2003, 03:10 PM
ditto Road Runner via Time Warner cable. the agreement does not prohibit multiple computers using the service via a network -- they just don't "support" the network unless you purchase that option at an extra $10/per. The thing is, it is VERY easy to set up a local network (Linksys provides easy-to-follow instruction, IMHO)

so -- get a router. just did a quick search at Compusa.com. and found the following:

4-Port Cable/DSL Router
Manufacturer: Linksys
Mfg Part #: NR041
Product Number: 296161
Price: $49.99

I've found Linksys products be good and inexpensive products that are quite easy to setup.

of course, since you have a laptop, i'd STRONGLY recommend you get a router with a Wireless Access Point. Again, Linksys makes good ones, that will run you about $80

patrick0brien
Oct 13, 2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by whocares
I think they're against agreements as they allow you to share internet connections, and your standard agreement with an ISP is internet access for *one* computer :mad:

-whocares

I'm curious about which provider has this provision in their contracts - so I can avoid them.

This is an archaic carryover from the cable TV days when there were technical limitations to how many TV's a standard signal could support.

The stantad Cable TV signal strentgh is designed for supporting the impedance load of onle one TV. You put another on that line - you double the impedance, and half the signal strength.

Measuring this is how the Cable companies find pirates.

With Cable or DSL Internet, a rounter simply doles out the bandwidth downstream it gets from upstream - it won't affect line signal no matter how many computers you have - you still have X bandwidth to live within, and it is up to you how you use it.

I have noticed that providors will not support such a setup as that would be incredible the amount of calls they would get.

Noiseboy
Oct 13, 2003, 06:17 PM
As was posted above, going the wireless route is the best way here. Pick up a Linksys or D-link wireless router that has wired ethernet port for the iMac and if you don't have an Airport card for the PB grab one. As Blackadder (Rowan Atkinson) might have said, "a powerbook without Airport is like a pencil without lead, pointless":p

benixau
Oct 13, 2003, 11:22 PM
netgear also make good networking products. i use one at hoe here with 3 macs and one pc. if you want the one i use is the FVS318: 8x 10/100, 1 x 10 (modem), VPN support, firewall, multicasting.

Parsa
Oct 22, 2003, 03:14 PM
I have an airport card in my powerbook. It was cheap for me as I'm a teacher.

The speed on the wireless routers isn't as fast as the airport base station is it? However, the Apple base station doesn't let you route the cable to the other computer... it only lets you hook up and share files via the ethernet port. Right?

I don't want to switch ethernet signals from one computer to the other. I want to share the cable simultaneously. So I guess I need a router.

I use Cox cable, and I know they charge if you want to have more than one computer on the high speed cable, but who would be stupid enough to tell them? They can't find out unless they come into my family room. I've read threads where a cable person came into the home and saw the router and gave them nasty looks, but hey, all you have to do is disconnect it.

Steve

alia
Oct 22, 2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by Parsa
I have an airport card in my powerbook. It was cheap for me as I'm a teacher.

The speed on the wireless routers isn't as fast as the airport base station is it? However, the Apple base station doesn't let you route the cable to the other computer... it only lets you hook up and share files via the ethernet port. Right?

I don't want to switch ethernet signals from one computer to the other. I want to share the cable simultaneously. So I guess I need a router.

I use Cox cable, and I know they charge if you want to have more than one computer on the high speed cable, but who would be stupid enough to tell them? They can't find out unless they come into my family room. I've read threads where a cable person came into the home and saw the router and gave them nasty looks, but hey, all you have to do is disconnect it.

Steve

I was under the impression that the airport WAS a router. That's what we have in my mom's house (I tried to get her to get a Linksys but she insiste on airport).

All we did was hook up the cable modem to the airport, the imac to the airport, and the rest of us connect wirelessly using wireless cards and wireless usb adapters.

It was pretty painless.


Alia

Le Big Mac
Oct 22, 2003, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Gymnut
How are they against the service agreements from most companies? If that were the case then there wouldn't be so many manufactuers selling routers. In regards to the question at hand, if you want your kids to access the internet while you're on, which is what I'm asuming, the router is the way to go.

Yes. You need a router and a switch. And you can probably buy a router with a built-in switch for less than a two-part combination. A switch alone will do nothing, because it can't control the flow of information from the internet to one or the other computer by itself.

Some cable companies prevent you from this by recording the MAC address from your computer (that's not a Mac, it's a MAC--which is a hardware identified). It then refuses to connect to any hardware with a different MAC address. If that happens, call them and tell them you've got a new computer. They'll reset it and read the MAC address from the router, and you'll be good to go. Alternatively, you can get a router with MAC cloning, which will make it appear to the cable co. that the router is your computer.

Or, if you're lucky, they won't do this and you can just plug and play.

Le Big Mac
Oct 22, 2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by patrick0brien
-


This is an archaic carryover from the cable TV days when there were technical limitations to how many TV's a standard signal could support.



Not really. It's put in the contracts to avoid having one subscriber supply internet access for the entire neighborhood. (yes, there would be bandwidth problems). They would rather sell access separately to everyone.

I don't know who restricts it within a single household, although such cos. do exist. I read an article recently, however, where they interviewed folks from several companies and they basically said "we don't really care if you're sharing among computers in your house. the problem is if you share with neighbors and so on." With wireless, of cousre, it's even more of a problem.

tomf87
Oct 22, 2003, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Le Big Mac
Not really. It's put in the contracts to avoid having one subscriber supply internet access for the entire neighborhood. (yes, there would be bandwidth problems). They would rather sell access separately to everyone.

I don't know who restricts it within a single household, although such cos. do exist. I read an article recently, however, where they interviewed folks from several companies and they basically said "we don't really care if you're sharing among computers in your house. the problem is if you share with neighbors and so on." With wireless, of cousre, it's even more of a problem.

I can say that my DSL and cable provider (I switch from cable to DSL) both have seen my router hooked up to their service, and all they say is, we don't support that so it's your puppy. When I was having issues with cable, I even told them I had it, and they never said a word about it otherwise.

Le Big Mac
Oct 22, 2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by tomf87
I can say that my DSL and cable provider (I switch from cable to DSL) both have seen my router hooked up to their service, and all they say is, we don't support that so it's your puppy. When I was having issues with cable, I even told them I had it, and they never said a word about it otherwise.

Perfectly reasonable that they don't support it. They're not in the business of general network support.

But how can they tell you have a router as opposed to a computer? I'm just curious--shouldn't the two be essentially indistinguishable (unless you don't have a firewall, and it can see multiple IP addresses behind the router)?

tomf87
Oct 22, 2003, 04:59 PM
They could look at the MAC address of the device connected and determine the manufacturer of it. If it turns up to be a Linksys or D-Link, then you can be sure it is a network device of some sort. However, if it turns out to be Apple, that could be either an Airport station or any of their computers...

Parsa
Oct 22, 2003, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Le Big Mac
Some cable companies prevent you from this by recording the MAC address from your computer (that's not a Mac, it's a MAC--which is a hardware identified). It then refuses to connect to any hardware with a different MAC address. If that happens, call them and tell them you've got a new computer. They'll reset it and read the MAC address from the router, and you'll be good to go. Alternatively, you can get a router with MAC cloning, which will make it appear to the cable co. that the router is your computer.

Which routers do MAC cloning?

I found this interesting comparison page for 802.11g routers. I've seen the same results on other pages, and from user reviews.

CNET Review (http://reviews.cnet.com/U_S__Robotics_USR8054_802_11g_wireless_turbo_router/4505-3319_7-30527119-4.html)

Parsa

ibookin'
Oct 22, 2003, 10:00 PM
Using a switch will NOT work unless your ISP has assigned you multiple IP addresses, which most home ISPs don't.

A router is the way to go. If they were to look at the MAC address and call you on it, just say you have a Linksys or Netgear NIC in your PC. I doubt they'd bother checking for that, or that it is even a violation of the service terms. My ISP (Adelphia) lets you use a router as long as you support that configuration yourself.

tomf87
Oct 23, 2003, 06:37 AM
Originally posted by ibookin'
... If they were to look at the MAC address and call you on it, just say you have a Linksys or Netgear NIC in your PC. I doubt they'd bother checking for that...

No need to lie about it. Just be honest, and I have never found one of the ISP's to care about it either. I think you'll be okay.

If the ISP has enough time to go around check every MAC address on its network, then they'll probably lay off some people soon as they must have an overage of workers.

Archaeopteryx
Oct 23, 2003, 08:40 AM
If you are like me and only want the best.. get this...

http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=72


Great product :p... Of course this is a switch and there fore harder to set up then a router.. Quite frankly Routers are gay, They are marketed for crappy home setups :-/ You want speed and performance you will need a switch instead...


A good Router/gateway....

http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=64

tomf87
Oct 23, 2003, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by Archaeopteryx
If you are like me and only want the best.. get this...

http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=72


Great product :p... Of course this is a switch and there fore harder to set up then a router.. Quite frankly Routers are gay, They are marketed for crappy home setups :-/ You want speed and performance you will need a switch instead...


A good Router/gateway....

http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=64

Routers are not gay... If you are only allotted one IP, how do you expect to share the connection? And if they only have a standard broadband, it's not going to help to have gig ports running all over the home network just to go out a 1 Mb line.

How do you have the D-Link connected to the 'Net? I'm assuming you have your broadband connection into a 10/100 port and you are using the gig port?

aphexist
Oct 23, 2003, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by Archaeopteryx
Quite frankly Routers are gay

I heard there was a new reality TV show where five stylish, charismatic Routers go to a Switch's house and give him tips on things that Routers are "good" at like fashion and interior decor.

My Router cooked me an AWESOME rack of lamb with a perfectly matched wine, then took me to Pottery Barn and bought me all new furniture.

I would recommend a Router, unless you are doing constant high-speed network transfers (if you know what I mean). In that case, get a Switch (or risk being gay).

revenuee
Oct 23, 2003, 10:26 AM
Router? what the.. for two computers at home?

This is what i did to get 2 macs and a PC to run off the same cable internet

step one bought a hub.

step 2 connected the modem, and the 3 computers into the inputs - arbitrarily i might add

started up the computers - and opened a browser... everything worked fine. jus set the net preferences to to provied DCHP - or whatever it's call from the service provider -

Total cost about 75$ for hub and ethernet cables

set up time... maybe 10 minutes to unpack hub, unravel cords, connect everything, boot up, and start working

i did not call my ISP for my IP's, i have no routers - they're macs... they just work

tomf87
Oct 23, 2003, 10:34 AM
See, my ISP in Cincinnati only allows one IP per consumer. So, routers using NAT are the only way to get around it.

aphexist
Oct 23, 2003, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by revenuee
Router? what the.. for two computers at home?

started up the computers - and opened a browser... everything worked fine. jus set the net preferences to to provied DCHP - or whatever it's call from the service provider

Well, MOST broadband ISPs do NOT assign multiple IP addresses.

The price you quoted sounds like you did buy a router, unless you bought a really expensive hub.

Also, a hub will provide NO protection from the rest of the internet, therefore hacking and DDoS attacks will be much more of a problem. Get a router, block incoming ports, you're golden.

aphexist
Oct 23, 2003, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by revenuee
i did not call my ISP for my IP's, i have no routers - they're macs... they just work

WOW! Your Macs were able to lease an IP via DHCP...THAT'S INCREDIBLE!!!

FYI, most "broadband routers" these days will work out of the box, no config required, with cable internet.

revenuee
Oct 23, 2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by aphexist
Well, MOST broadband ISPs do NOT assign multiple IP addresses.

The price you quoted sounds like you did buy a router, unless you bought a really expensive hub.

Also, a hub will provide NO protection from the rest of the internet, therefore hacking and DDoS attacks will be much more of a problem. Get a router, block incoming ports, you're golden.


Asante 5 Port Ethernet Hub is what it says on the thing... and it was 75 CND

i bought the thing 4 years ago upon the advice of my reseller

as far as getting hacked... i don't know

how is being on a hub make you more suseptable to being hacked then if you've just got one computer running?

tomf87
Oct 23, 2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by revenuee
Asante 5 Port Ethernet Hub is what it says on the thing... and it was 75 CND

i bought the thing 4 years ago upon the advice of my reseller

as far as getting hacked... i don't know

how is being on a hub make you more suseptable to being hacked then if you've just got one computer running?

Not just one computer running... I have an iMac at home and I still use a router, as the router blocks incoming packets to my IP.

By being on a hub, it's like being directly connected to the ISP, so you're susceptible to more attacks.

Le Big Mac
Oct 23, 2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by tomf87
They could look at the MAC address of the device connected and determine the manufacturer of it. If it turns up to be a Linksys or D-Link, then you can be sure it is a network device of some sort. However, if it turns out to be Apple, that could be either an Airport station or any of their computers...

Good lord. A cable company really would need some time on its hands to do that.

But thanks, I didn't realize MAC numbers were like VINs on cars--that you could tell the brand of product.

joker2
Oct 23, 2003, 11:34 AM
I agree that a router with NAT is the way to go. The cable company cannot see beyond the router, and see only that one "machine" and therefore have no problems with it.

You will, however, need to call your provider in some areas (like Northern Virginia and Florida with Adelphia) and say you're switching computers, and need to have the cache cleared. With Adelphia, get a ticket number and ask to be bumped to level 2 support. Alternately, I was told by the technician that their timeout is 4.5 hours, so leave your cablemodem unplugged for 4.5 hours and the system will then capture the first MAC address given when you plug it back in. (Most of us can't live that long without our connections though, so it's worth the 10 minutes on the phone to get to tech support. ;)

tomf87
Oct 23, 2003, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by shadow95
I agree that a router with NAT is the way to go. The cable company cannot see beyond the router, and see only that one "machine" and therefore have no problems with it.

You will, however, need to call your provider in some areas (like Northern Virginia and Florida with Adelphia) and say you're switching computers, and need to have the cache cleared. With Adelphia, get a ticket number and ask to be bumped to level 2 support. Alternately, I was told by the technician that their timeout is 4.5 hours, so leave your cablemodem unplugged for 4.5 hours and the system will then capture the first MAC address given when you plug it back in. (Most of us can't live that long without our connections though, so it's worth the 10 minutes on the phone to get to tech support. ;)

Someone asked earlier about MAC cloning and it relates to your post.

I have a Linksys BEFW11S4 and it supports MAC cloning. You essentially enter the MAC address of your old PC and it will use that on the WAN port, so your ISP doesn't see a change at all (and you won't have to call them).

Lanbrown
Oct 23, 2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Le Big Mac
Good lord. A cable company really would need some time on its hands to do that.

But thanks, I didn't realize MAC numbers were like VINs on cars--that you could tell the brand of product.

Yes and no. I have run across duplicate MAC's before, so while they are supposed to be unique, they do get reused. I have heard VIN numbers get reused, but the previous vehicle was destroyed as well.

You cannot always tell the brand of the product either. Some companies sell chipsets to a lot of companies. Sometimes they get programmed with the other companies address range and then shipped to them, other times it may have who originally made the chipset. So you will see one of two things, either who made the chipset or whose equipment it really is. Most large companies that sell network gear have several allocations. The first three octets say who it is.

Le Big Mac
Oct 23, 2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by shadow95
Alternately, I was told by the technician that their timeout is 4.5 hours, so leave your cablemodem unplugged for 4.5 hours and the system will then capture the first MAC address given when you plug it back in. (Most of us can't live that long without our connections though, so it's worth the 10 minutes on the phone to get to tech support. ;)

You don't even sleep that long? I know you're kidding, a bit, but why not unplug when you go to bed and plug in the new device in the morning? Sure, you have to do it bleary-eyed, but hardly a major deal.

revenuee
Oct 23, 2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by tomf87
Not just one computer running... I have an iMac at home and I still use a router, as the router blocks incoming packets to my IP.

By being on a hub, it's like being directly connected to the ISP, so you're susceptible to more attacks.

lets forget about the router for a minute...

How is it any different when my computer is connected staight into the modem via ethernet, or if it's connected to the hub, and then to the modem via eithernet ... as far as security risk is concerned...

tomf87
Oct 23, 2003, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by revenuee
lets forget about the router for a minute...

How is it any different when my computer is connected staight into the modem via ethernet, or if it's connected to the hub, and then to the modem via eithernet ... as far as security risk is concerned...

There is no difference. Both are directly connected to the Internet with nothing in between them.

ibookin'
Oct 24, 2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Archaeopteryx
Quite frankly Routers are gay, They are marketed for crappy home setups :-/

So the backbone of the internet is gay?

And, quite frankly, how can you call this gay?

aphexist
Oct 24, 2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by ibookin'
So the backbone of the internet is gay?

And, quite frankly, how can you call this gay?

Don't pay any attention to Archaeopteryx . He's not much of a "computer person" seeing as he can't figure out how to open his CD drive.

Here is the link (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43223). Laugh, laugh!

Supa_Fly
Oct 25, 2003, 09:12 PM
LMFAO!!! I just laughed so hard that I almost peed myself for the first time ever, just almost!!! Don't pay any attention to Archaeopteryx . He's not much of a "computer person" seeing as he can't figure out how to open his CD drive.