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NYCMacFan
Jan 26, 2008, 11:59 PM
Okay, I just saw the leaked specs on the Lenovo Thinkpad x300. I was kind of shocked at how much the X300 outclasses the Macbook Air (lighter, faster, smaller footprint, optical drive, lots of ports, removable battery, also SSD and only a smidgen thicker).

I am really depressed to see just how inferior the mac turns out to be. Consolation - the Lenovo is as ugly as ever.

Here is a link or two
http://gizmodo.com/346797/ultralight-lenovo-x300-series-thinkpad-leaked
http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=4213

Here are the specs:
* Display: 13.3" widescreen WXGA+ (1440 x 900) display, LED backlit
* Processor Chipset: Intel Santa Rosa 2.0GHz LV
* Storage: 64GB SSD
* Wireless: Bluetooth, 802.11 a/b/g/n, Wireless USB, WWAN, WiMax, GPS
* Optical Drive: Ultrathin DVD Burner (7mm)
* Memory: up to 4G
* Dimensions: 12.5 in (width) 9 in (depth) x 0.73 in - 0.92 in (thickness)
* Ports: 3 USB ports, Mic in, Headphone out, VGA Adapter, built-in web camera, stereo speakers
* Input: ThinkPad keyboard with TrackPoint, touchpad
* Battery: 3-cell Lithium-Polymer



heatmiser
Jan 27, 2008, 12:00 AM
If I were in the market, I'd get the Lenovo, no question.

Baba Ganoush
Jan 27, 2008, 12:04 AM
I may be the only one in the world that thinks this...but I think that Levono is sexy looking. :p

ahaxton
Jan 27, 2008, 12:07 AM
Hmm, non existent lenovo with no price lol.

kkat69
Jan 27, 2008, 12:19 AM
I've used stinkpads for years, since I switched nothing IBM or whoever puts out will ever make me buy another one.

Didn't like em when I was forced to use one, they don't even show up on my radar of systems I'd even consider buying.

Baba Ganoush
Jan 27, 2008, 12:23 AM
I've used stinkpads for years, since I switched nothing IBM or whoever puts out will ever make me buy another one.

Didn't like em when I was forced to use one, they don't even show up on my radar of systems I'd even consider buying.
:eek: This is the first time Ive ever seen anyone talk bad about thinkpads. Usually everyone is glowing about them. Iam curious what was wrong with them that you didnt like?

macjay
Jan 27, 2008, 12:25 AM
Can the blue "enter" key be changed to black?

Baba Ganoush
Jan 27, 2008, 12:32 AM
Can the blue "enter" key be changed to black?

I might be wrong but I am gonna say no its not. Every thinkpad I've ever seen has that blue enter button on it.

Peace
Jan 27, 2008, 12:34 AM
If anyone hasn't figured it out yet the MacBook Pro has better specs than the MacBook Air also..

This X300 will cost $2500-$3500 and compete with the new MacBook Pro.

MacBook Air is not meant to compete with this type of laptop.

contoursvt
Jan 27, 2008, 12:36 AM
Well you're the only one I know in history that thinks so. I pretty much think the Thinkpads are the best notebooks out there. Incredibly sturdy and reliable and quite well rounded. More money than most others but thats fine.

I've used stinkpads for years, since I switched nothing IBM or whoever puts out will ever make me buy another one.

Didn't like em when I was forced to use one, they don't even show up on my radar of systems I'd even consider buying.

Baba Ganoush
Jan 27, 2008, 12:37 AM
If anyone hasn't figured it out yet the MacBook Pro has better specs than the MacBook Air also..

This X300 will cost $2500-$3500 and compete with the new MacBook Pro.

MacBook Air is not meant to compete with this type of laptop.

:eek:Are you saying that little thinkpad is packing as powerful parts in it as a MBP has!? I dont believe it.:eek:

gcmexico
Jan 27, 2008, 12:39 AM
That is one ugly laptop!! I'll take a Macbook Air please!:)

Peace
Jan 27, 2008, 12:41 AM
:eek:Are you saying that little thinkpad is packing as powerful parts in it as a MBP has!? I dont believe it.:eek:

No I'm saying Comparing a MBA to either the upcoming new MBP or the X300 isn't fair because they're in two different classes.

That Lenovo will be expensive.A lot more than $1799.

gr8tfly
Jan 27, 2008, 12:45 AM
...only a smidgen thicker

21% to 456% thicker, which is just a "tad" more than a "smidgen".

Footprint does look a bit smaller, though. I'll give it that much... :)

Anderson3133
Jan 27, 2008, 12:50 AM
Okay, I just saw the leaked specs on the Lenovo Thinkpad x300. I was kind of shocked at how much the X300 outclasses the Macbook Air (lighter, faster, smaller footprint, optical drive, lots of ports, removable battery, also SSD and only a smidgen thicker).

I am really depressed to see just how inferior the mac turns out to be. Consolation - the Lenovo is as ugly as ever.

Here is a link or two
http://gizmodo.com/346797/ultralight-lenovo-x300-series-thinkpad-leaked
http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=4213

Here are the specs:
* Display: 13.3" widescreen WXGA+ (1440 x 900) display, LED backlit
* Processor Chipset: Intel Santa Rosa 2.0GHz LV
* Storage: 64GB SSD
* Wireless: Bluetooth, 802.11 a/b/g/n, Wireless USB, WWAN, WiMax, GPS
* Optical Drive: Ultrathin DVD Burner (7mm)
* Memory: up to 4G
* Dimensions: 12.5 in (width) 9 in (depth) x 0.73 in - 0.92 in (thickness)
* Ports: 3 USB ports, Mic in, Headphone out, VGA Adapter, built-in web camera, stereo speakers
* Input: ThinkPad keyboard with TrackPoint, touchpad
* Battery: 3-cell Lithium-Polymer

This means that Apple will definately have to up the ante with it's second version of the Macbook Air.

eddietr
Jan 27, 2008, 12:50 AM
Certainly a very interesting machine. I disagree that this is the competitor to the MBP. Because the MBP is twice the weight of this thing.

Unless the new MBP went on a serious diet.

I think Thinkpads are great. I would consider holding off on my MBA order to look at this, but at the end of the day I still prefer Leopard to any of the Linux distributions out there right now.

anirban
Jan 27, 2008, 12:53 AM
I may be the minority here, but I would still risk it here and say that Thinkpads have been one of the flawless machines that I have used. The software may be a different story, but the hardware itself has proved itself to be very reliable over time.

Given a choice between the Thinkpad and MBA, I would jump on the Thinkpad.

macRat17
Jan 27, 2008, 12:54 AM
just looking at the trackpad on the x300 turns me off. However i do like the specs, especially that "7mm" dvd burner

ProPedderKustom
Jan 27, 2008, 12:55 AM
I may be the minority here, but I would still risk it here and say that Thinkpads have been one of the flawless machines that I have used. The software may be a different story, but the hardware itself has proved itself to be very reliable over time.

Given a choice between the Thinkpad and MBA, I would jump on the Thinkpad.

Agreed! While the Thinkpad has never been as sexy as any Apple notebook, I have found this to be rock-solid pieces of hardware. If I could get OS X running legally and natively on this [X60 ultraportable], I wouldn't be going to an MBA!

mavherzog
Jan 27, 2008, 12:59 AM
Agreed! While the Thinkpad has never been as sexy as any Apple notebook, I have found this to be rock-solid pieces of hardware. If I could get OS X running legally and natively on this [X60 ultraportable], I wouldn't be going to an MBA!
I run Ubuntu on my X60s and have been very happy with it.

(I don't do the nasty (http://www.microsoft.com/windows))

It is a very portable machine and, with the 8-cell battery, you get a TON of battery life out of it.

eddietr
Jan 27, 2008, 01:00 AM
I may be the minority here, but I would still risk it here and say that Thinkpads have been one of the flawless machines that I have used. The software may be a different story, but the hardware itself has proved itself to be very reliable over time.

Given a choice between the Thinkpad and MBA, I would jump on the Thinkpad.

I don't know if you're in the minority. I've had three thinkpads. Two were rock solid. One didn't work out as well. But overall, I think they're really designed and built well. And I actually like the way they look and I like the keyboards and screens. The old 600X I had years ago was one of best computers I've ever owned, running Linux.

But for me OS X is a big advantage for the Macbook line versus the Thinkpad line.

gr8tfly
Jan 27, 2008, 01:08 AM
lighter


According to Gizmodo, the weight is up to 3.17 lbs (http://gizmodo.com/photogallery/x300/1000528037). Which, I believe, puts it heavier than the MPA?

Guess we'll have to see what the final specs really are. Pretty hard to believe it contains more hardware, is thicker, but yet ends up lighter (without going to very exotic materials).

No matter what, the aesthetics of the MPA make it hard to directly compare. I think I speak for others in saying the design itself is a feature. So, even if they do have the same specs and price, the MPA would have more value to many customers.

Mark16q
Jan 27, 2008, 01:08 AM
My latest Lenovo Thinkpad has been nothing but a headache. My previous thinkpad of IBM origin is still one of my favorite machines.

The worst part about my lemon Lenovo is how incredibly poor the support has been. Returned without being repaired, incorrect parts sent, numerous lost service calls, wrong addresses when shipped back etc etc. While a lemon can happen, it's how they support it that matters and here they've failed miserably. It's the last Thinkpad I'll buy, and really hope my new MBP is able to replace it.

Mark

ProPedderKustom
Jan 27, 2008, 01:08 AM
I run Ubuntu on my X60s and have been very happy with it.

(I don't do the nasty (http://www.microsoft.com/windows))

It is a very portable machine and, with the 8-cell battery, you get a TON of battery life out of it.


Yeah I have the 8 cell battery and it still leaves the machine incredibly light with enough battery life to watch a few movies and browse the net wirelessly for abit.

7even
Jan 27, 2008, 01:15 AM
Well you're the only one I know in history that thinks so. I pretty much think the Thinkpads are the best notebooks out there. Incredibly sturdy and reliable and quite well rounded. More money than most others but thats fine.

Welll... at least they used to be. Went through 2 Thinkpads already, both were plagued with either build quality issues or just general problems.. By contrast, earlier IBM-branded Thinkpads that I've seen have been extremely solid even after many years of use.

However, this x300, if it comes exactly as promised, sure looks to be sweet and I'd probably spring for one over an MBA, if I were looking for a small laptop and assuming the price was reasonable.

Andrmgic
Jan 27, 2008, 01:23 AM
Of course it will cost more than the MBA.. it doesn't come with a ****** 1.8" iPod hard drive. It comes with a 64gb SSD, which adds $1000($999) to the price of the Air.

That machine kicks the crap out of the macbook air in terms of features, is barely heavier and is a full-featured machine.

Unless it sells for more than $3,000, they've got Apple beat, hands down.

robby818
Jan 27, 2008, 01:33 AM
I am a happy X series user (22 --> 32 --> 40 (returned it because the 1.8" drive was too slow), and currently using an x61s.

I've been waiting for Apple to release an ultraportable for a long time and the Air seems like a viable replacement for my x61s.

The x300 caused me to reconsider though because i could finally get a trackpad in a thinkpad ultraportable and the LED screen would be a nice plus. I dont care about the optical drive but I like having more than one USB port and maybe an SD reader too.

Plus with the way lenovo has been discounting their laptops (my x61s cost $880 after all the rebates), the x300 could be very affordable. A lot of people have been comparing the retail prices of the PC ultraportables to the MBA, but for PCs they really dont sell for anythig near retail. Apples, yes, but PCs, no.

But I'd probably still run XP, which is now beginning to feel a little outdated. That's the main reason I'd probably choose a MBA-- I don't like or want Vista and XP is no longer doing it for me.

ProPedderKustom
Jan 27, 2008, 01:51 AM
Even though I believe that Thinkpads are great pieces of hardware, you still cannot compare them to an Apple. The operating system makes all of the difference in the world between the two...after all, if you have 3 USB ports instead of 1 but can't use them because the computer is always freezing or making you install new drivers, antivirus, etc. - it doesn't matter. This is the precise reason why I am making my second and final switch back to Apple - Windows just can't get things right.

aiongiant
Jan 27, 2008, 01:58 AM
i agree the os to me does make alot of difference
and plus personally i think the macbook air is wayyy sexier than the thinkpad
and i hate the stupid red mouse thing and colored enter button haha

Jiddick ExRex
Jan 27, 2008, 02:03 AM
According to Gizmodo, the weight is up to 3.17 lbs (http://gizmodo.com/photogallery/x300/1000528037). Which, I believe, puts it heavier than the MPA?

Guess we'll have to see what the final specs really are. Pretty hard to believe it contains more hardware, is thicker, but yet ends up lighter (without going to very exotic materials).

No matter what, the aesthetics of the MPA make it hard to directly compare. I think I speak for others in saying the design itself is a feature. So, even if they do have the same specs and price, the MPA would have more value to many customers.

MPA = Mac Pro Air? Now that's a machine I'd like to see :D

Baba Ganoush
Jan 27, 2008, 02:07 AM
MPA = Mac Pro Air? Now that's a machine I'd like to see :D

Good Eye! :p

sushi
Jan 27, 2008, 02:15 AM
Personally, I like Thinkpads.

But for now, the MBA looks like a much nicer option than the Thinkpad 300.

mashoutposse
Jan 27, 2008, 02:26 AM
It's not "only a smidgen thicker." The Lenovo takes up twice the space by volume. Actually, you can stack up two MBAs and still end up with something thinner than the Lenovo. Also, the footprints are practically identical (0.3" difference on one dimension) -- it's a bit disingenuous to call it "smaller."

Additionally, it's lighter because of the usage of plastics over metals. I would say the tradeoff here is worth it.

contoursvt
Jan 27, 2008, 02:26 AM
Last time I checked, you could shove a MBA through a slot thats 0.76 inches in height vs the 0.92" for the Lenovo. Thats a tad in my books.


21% to 456% thicker, which is just a "tad" more than a "smidgen".

Footprint does look a bit smaller, though. I'll give it that much... :)

gr8tfly
Jan 27, 2008, 02:50 AM
Good Eye! :p

Ok. ok. Fat fimbers... :p

gr8tfly
Jan 27, 2008, 02:58 AM
Last time I checked, you could shove a MBA through a slot thats 0.76 inches in height vs the 0.92" for the Lenovo. Thats a tad in my books.

That might mean something the next time I try mailing my notebook... :)

Really, though, the less bulky it is, the easier it is to carry. Even if you carry it with the thick end. Sorry, I'm not buying it. It's still less volume, no matter how it's sliced. Good try, though.

shadie
Jan 27, 2008, 07:16 AM
I've had around 15 Thinkpads and the same number of Powerbooks, in my opinion the Thinkpads win on upgradability and endurance (still have 7 working)

Powerbooks win on style/innovation (only my PB145b, PB520c and PB12" still "work").

I still think the X300 will be a much better buy than the Air, but I do understand some people will pay for style over functionality.

X300 Already discussed here.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=419041&highlight=x300

Cybergypsy
Jan 27, 2008, 07:35 AM
Not for me super ugly.......

shadie
Jan 27, 2008, 08:16 AM
Not for me super ugly.......

Yeh, that's what I mean, form over function, like LV, Prada ect.



I'd also not call the X300 or MBA sub-notebook form factor, I mean what do you call an X61s or EEPC?

NYCMacFan
Jan 27, 2008, 08:28 AM
If anyone hasn't figured it out yet the MacBook Pro has better specs than the MacBook Air also..

This X300 will cost $2500-$3500 and compete with the new MacBook Pro.

MacBook Air is not meant to compete with this type of laptop.

But the MBA with SSD is at that price range. And the X300 is lighter, smaller, faster.

Cybergypsy
Jan 27, 2008, 08:30 AM
Yeh, that's what I mean, form over function, like LV, Prada ect.\





I'd also not call the X300 or MBA sub-notebook form factor, I mean what do you call an X61s or EEPC?


I think this is lost in the 80s, not into prada or any designer, just think it plain ugly.......

Phil A.
Jan 27, 2008, 08:54 AM
Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A93 Safari/419.3)

personally the thinkpad is missing one feature that means I'm not even remotely interested in it: OS X!

clevin
Jan 27, 2008, 09:01 AM
let me contribute some facts, http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2126/2211891417_121e036d2f_o_d.png

NYCMacFan
Jan 27, 2008, 09:09 AM
Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A93 Safari/419.3)

personally the thinkpad is missing one feature that means I'm not even remotely interested in it: OS X!

I agree, but I mean if you could put OS X on...

(And I actually don't want the optical drive or need extra USB ports. I just feel like Apple could have done more...

NYCMacFan
Jan 27, 2008, 09:10 AM
let me contribute some facts, http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2126/2211891417_121e036d2f_o_d.png

Thanks. Very illuminating and cool. I wonder how one would compare the old PB 12inch to the MBA. Was only 12inches, but with 4:3 very usable screen.

MacRumorUser
Jan 27, 2008, 10:36 AM
personally the thinkpad is missing one feature that means I'm not even remotely interested in it: OS X!

Exactly.... surely it boils down to how important it is to run Mac OSX and Apple /Mac Applications?

Only one offers a legitimate OSX solution, and the other comes with the resource eating and slow poke Vista.

Makes the decision so much easier than spec for spec comparisons which at the end of the day mean nothing if the machine can't run the applications you use.

clevin
Jan 27, 2008, 10:39 AM
Thanks. Very illuminating and cool. I wonder how one would compare the old PB 12inch to the MBA. Was only 12inches, but with 4:3 very usable screen.

yes, Let me make it right now. brb

MacsAttack
Jan 27, 2008, 10:43 AM
Unless you can buy it - it's vapor-ware. They are probably holding off a launch until the SSD prices come down some. :D

Techguy172
Jan 27, 2008, 10:51 AM
This thing is really nice and it defiantly challenges apples engineers it makes them look bad sure this thing is a little thicker but it has a smaller foot print way more power a built in DVD drive and a better keyboard. Kinda makes you think what steve said in his keynote look like B.S. people don't necessarily want the thinnest notebook but they do want the goodies that lenovo gives you.

But I can't wait to see apple's answer back to this machine it will have to be good with bigger storage and better components maybe more ports better battery life. It will certainly something to see. it will also need a price drop to sell.

The Menacer
Jan 27, 2008, 10:51 AM
MacBook Air is not meant to compete with this type of laptop.

It's not meant to compete with a 3 pound, 13.3" widescreen subnotebook?

NYCMacFan
Jan 27, 2008, 10:58 AM
It's not meant to compete with a 3 pound, 13.3" widescreen subnotebook?

Exactly. You are right on them being clear competitors.

These are amongst the clearest competitors out there. Ultralight laptops for people that need real screens and keyboards - professors, writers, journalists, lawyers....

lost eden
Jan 27, 2008, 12:03 PM
With regards to all of the comments about the ThinkPad being ugly, you have to appreciate the important facts;

Apple design: form over function
IBM design: function over form

There's no denying that nearly all of Apple's products suffer in terms of functionality just so they can look pretty & the MBA is the prime example of this. Apple are more concerned with their products being visually appealing than highly functional, because this is their market; pretentious style-concious people who are more concerned with their stylish image than whether their computer is actually any use as a computer. In this regard, Apple pull it off very well.

ThinkPads OTOH have retained the same visual design since the very beginning of the range back in 1992. Why? Because it's a fscking solid design, which allows the ultimate functionality in the form factor & makes extremely strong/durable machines (that's the reason they've been used on the spacestation(s) for so long!). ThinkPads are targetted at the business sector; people who want a solid machine that also looks professional*. In this regard, IBM/Lenovo pull it off perfectly.

(* 'stylish' is not the same as 'professional'. Prada stilletos are 'stylish' but black leather suit shoes are 'professional')

Yes, these two machines are in some regards direct competitors, but in other respects they are not. Yes, they are targetted towards people who want a full screen & keyboard in a thin & light form factor, but there is a clear divide between who will buy each one. The MBA is targetted towards the "professors, writers, journalists" (to quote a previous post) whereas the ThinkPad is targetted towards your traditional suit & tie business man.

heatmiser
Jan 27, 2008, 01:50 PM
It's not meant to compete with a 3 pound, 13.3" widescreen subnotebook?

There's a lot of denial among the MBA crowd, if you haven't noticed. It can't be compared to *anything* except to the Macbook and Macbook Pro, in which case the comparison must be made on "thickness" and "weight" instead of on, you know, anything else (like performance or price). They keep saying it's the "best in its class", and I guess they're right, because they've effectively placed it in a class of one. Every notebook that outperforms it in speed, features, weight, or performance can't be compared to it, and isn't meant to compete with it. I doubt even SJ would be this detached from reality, but apparently, lots of the MBA's defenders are.

anirban
Jan 27, 2008, 02:00 PM
There's a lot of denial among the MBA crowd, if you haven't noticed. It can't be compared to *anything* except to the Macbook and Macbook Pro, in which case the comparison must be made on "thickness" and "weight" instead of on, you know, anything else (like performance or price). They keep saying it's the "best in its class", and I guess they're right, because they've effectively placed it in a class of one. Every notebook that outperforms it in speed, features, weight, or performance can't be compared to it, and isn't meant to compete with it. I doubt even SJ would be this detached from reality, but apparently, lots of the MBA's defenders are.

At the risk of getting a lot of heat, I will say that I agree with you.

PDE
Jan 27, 2008, 02:06 PM
I may be the only one in the world that thinks this...but I think that Levono is sexy looking. :p

You're not the only one. I love the thinkpad look and I love the sturdiness and keyboard. If it ran os x I'd actually prefer it over an MBA, but only because the specs and weight. An Air with the same specs would be perfect....

Quillz
Jan 27, 2008, 02:27 PM
The Thinkpad is better in nearly every way. Hopefully the second gen MacBook Air will be similar to this. Of course, it will be funny to hear Jobs try to explain why they were "wrong" about omitting the optical drive.

netdog
Jan 27, 2008, 02:30 PM
The Thinkpad is better in nearly every way. Hopefully the second gen MacBook Air will be similar to this. Of course, it will be funny to hear Jobs try to explain why they were "wrong" about omitting the optical drive.

Jobs won't admit that because for those of us who want the Air, we are glad he dropped it. The IBM is a totally different machine and is much more expensive.

It's for geeks. The MacBook Air is for a different crowd altogether. You will see how well it does. People ordering now are already going to have to wait until March to take delivery.

Thinkpads are great for what they are. So are MacBooks, MacBook Pros and MacBook Airs.

clevin
Jan 27, 2008, 05:27 PM
So are MacBooks, MacBook Pros and MacBook Airs.

these 3 are hardly same level, MB/ MBP has nearly no sacrifice in functionality (except for certain shortage in software availability for OSX) compare to their counterparts in PC world. MBA, on the other hand, sacrifices a lot of functionality.

Please don't list them together just because they all made by apple, it would be blind brand loyalty.

BWhaler
Jan 27, 2008, 05:36 PM
There is no way those specs are correct. I'll take any bet on it.

Engineering portables is all about tradeoffs.

Rdk3000
Jan 27, 2008, 05:45 PM
The Macbook Air will totally own thinkpad :apple:

ahaxton
Jan 27, 2008, 05:47 PM
The Macbook Air will totally own thinkpad :apple:

that's for sure, a no priced concept can't beat anything. If/By the time they come out with the thinkpad there will be version 2 of the MBA.

flashframe
Jan 27, 2008, 07:02 PM
I have an IBM Thinkpad a30p. Lots of great software. Anyone willing to trade me for an MBA? Half an MBA? 1/4 an MBA? A free lunch?

Didn't think so.

My Thinkpad is on eBay now...just in case you're serious.

ivan1234
Jan 27, 2008, 07:14 PM
Iam still getting the mba without a doubt :cool:

landis
Jan 27, 2008, 08:40 PM
those specs seem a little fishy to me. you are fitting all of the same components that are in the MB, plus some extras into a package slimmer than the mbp. it just doesnt seem right.

also, what would apples motivation be to use an aluminum case if it makes it so much heavier. it the mba has x number of components and the x300 has x+y number of components, none of which are smaller than the air's, how could it possibly weigh less or even the same?

butterfly0fdoom
Jan 27, 2008, 09:25 PM
I agree, it seems rater fishy. That's a really puny battery that they're fitting in this x300, and I truly doubt that DVD burners that thin exist.

Clix Pix
Jan 27, 2008, 10:19 PM
I didn't bother reading through the whole thread and I also didn't bother reading all the specs of the new Thinkpad. Why? Well, there is one HUGE problem with the Thinkpad. It uses Windoze......

r00
Jan 27, 2008, 10:28 PM
I didn't bother reading through the whole thread and I also didn't bother reading all the specs of the new Thinkpad. Why? Well, there is one HUGE problem with the Thinkpad. It uses Windoze......

Or Linux, BSD, Solaris, and all those unreliable OS's...;)

Diode
Jan 27, 2008, 10:36 PM
The IBM is a totally different machine and is much more expensive.

It's for geeks. The MacBook Air is for a different crowd altogether. You will see how well it does.

Not entirely accurate. A lot of business's use IBM's for their road warriors (not really "geeks" per say).

This looks like a great fully featured laptop in a compact package. The fact that it has 3 full usb ports (I'm sure not crippled), DVD drive AND pci express slots (hint 3G networks) makes it run circles around the MBA.

Now it's not as sexy as the MBA but there are always trade offs.

gcmexico
Jan 27, 2008, 11:15 PM
This is America...land of materialism!! Why would I get a fully loaded Honda Civic, when I can buy a Mercedes with half the features of a Civic??? Answer that question and you are at the heart of consumerism and capitalism. Same thing with the MBA...all you need is the right balance!!! Decent specs, awesome look means GREAT product that will sell! It's a win win for Apple, and for those that can afford the MBA right now. I'm a firm believer that most of the complainers are the ones that can't afford the MBA, if the MBA was on Ebay for 1000 right now, all the complainers would be bidding on it:cool:

mashoutposse
Jan 27, 2008, 11:15 PM
It's not meant to compete with a 3 pound, 13.3" widescreen subnotebook?

MBA is half the volume of the Lenovo.

mashoutposse
Jan 27, 2008, 11:41 PM
There's a lot of denial among the MBA crowd, if you haven't noticed. It can't be compared to *anything* except to the Macbook and Macbook Pro, in which case the comparison must be made on "thickness" and "weight" instead of on, you know, anything else (like performance or price). They keep saying it's the "best in its class", and I guess they're right, because they've effectively placed it in a class of one. Every notebook that outperforms it in speed, features, weight, or performance can't be compared to it, and isn't meant to compete with it. I doubt even SJ would be this detached from reality, but apparently, lots of the MBA's defenders are.

Guess what: Compare any company's smallest models to its almost always cheaper full-size brethren, and the smaller ones lose the performance battle every time.

According to CNet, the MBA is 2-3 times faster than similarly sized units from other manufacturers while being cheaper than practically all of them. This includes the oft-mentioned Sony TZ, Toshiba R500, et cetera et cetera.

The MBA and MBP/MB should not be compared because the MBA is over two times smaller than either.

NYCMacFan
Jan 27, 2008, 11:42 PM
The IBM is a totally different machine and is much more expensive.

Thinkpads are great for what they are. So are MacBooks, MacBook Pros and MacBook Airs.

Actually with an SSD, they will be comparably priced.

So IBM delivers a faster, smaller, lighter machine with more amenities and you just toss up your hands and say they are different and not subject to comparison. If you could install Leopard on the IBM would you still say so.

NYCMacFan
Jan 27, 2008, 11:46 PM
You're not the only one. I love the thinkpad look and I love the sturdiness and keyboard. If it ran os x I'd actually prefer it over an MBA, but only because the specs and weight. An Air with the same specs would be perfect....

I hate the look, but started this thread given how impressive the specs were. I will still probably buy the MBA, but am let down by the overall package (even though I agreed with killing the optical drive and retaining full sized keyboard and 13inch scree). Just thought it could be a touch lighter/smaller footprint.

Quillz
Jan 27, 2008, 11:48 PM
I didn't bother reading through the whole thread and I also didn't bother reading all the specs of the new Thinkpad. Why? Well, there is one HUGE problem with the Thinkpad. It uses Windoze......
When your only counter argument is lame trolling, it's best to just not post.

Quillz
Jan 27, 2008, 11:50 PM
Not entirely accurate. A lot of business's use IBM's for their road warriors (not really "geeks" per say).

This looks like a great fully featured laptop in a compact package. The fact that it has 3 full usb ports (I'm sure not crippled), DVD drive AND pci express slots (hint 3G networks) makes it run circles around the MBA.

Now it's not as sexy as the MBA but there are always trade offs.
Except the Thinkpad was designed from the start for functionality, whereas the MacBook Air is just a fashionable product with little functionality.

mashoutposse
Jan 27, 2008, 11:55 PM
Actually with an SSD, they will be comparably priced.

So IBM delivers a faster, smaller, lighter machine with more amenities and you just toss up your hands and say they are different and not subject to comparison. If you could install Leopard on the IBM would you still say so.

The Lenovo is not smaller than the MBA. The MBA is half the size.

Aranince
Jan 27, 2008, 11:59 PM
I think Apple might have done better with a simple 12" Macbook.

Freyqq
Jan 28, 2008, 12:00 AM
According to Gizmodo, the weight is up to 3.17 lbs (http://gizmodo.com/photogallery/x300/1000528037). Which, I believe, puts it heavier than the MPA?

Guess we'll have to see what the final specs really are. Pretty hard to believe it contains more hardware, is thicker, but yet ends up lighter (without going to very exotic materials).

No matter what, the aesthetics of the MPA make it hard to directly compare. I think I speak for others in saying the design itself is a feature. So, even if they do have the same specs and price, the MPA would have more value to many customers.

yes.. .17 extra lbs vs having a much more powerful system

lets see.....

eddietr
Jan 28, 2008, 12:01 AM
Actually with an SSD, they will be comparably priced.


They've announced pricing?

mashoutposse
Jan 28, 2008, 12:01 AM
yes.. .17 extra lbs vs having a much more powerful system

lets see.....

...and double the size by volume. Additionally, it's not even "much more powerful" (MBA's 1.6/1.8GHz full voltage CPU vs. Lenovo's 2.0GHz LV processor)

This Lenovo is much closer in size to the MacBook than to the MBA.

gr8tfly
Jan 28, 2008, 12:08 AM
yes.. .17 extra lbs vs having a much more powerful system

lets see.....

My comment had to do with the post stating it was lighter. It isn't.

kuwisdelu
Jan 28, 2008, 12:13 AM
The Thinkpad is better in nearly every way. Hopefully the second gen MacBook Air will be similar to this. Of course, it will be funny to hear Jobs try to explain why they were "wrong" about omitting the optical drive.

That optical drive thing won't happen. It would be like adding a floppy drive to the 2nd gen iMac because it was a "mistake" to not have one in the first place. The lack of an optical drive is part of the MacBook Air's design, and it's no less a flaw than the iMac's lacking a floppy drive was a flaw. Maybe you use your optical drive everywhere, but there were a lot of us who, when Steve announced the lack of an optical drive, were somewhat taken aback at first, but then thought "hey...I guess I DON'T use my optical drive all that much anyway...hmm..."

There are even those of us who never have more than one thing plugged into our USB ports at once, and don't even know what 3G is. *GASP* I know. Amazing, isn't it? That some of us have different needs and wants in a computer?

When your only counter argument is lame trolling, it's best to just not post.

I don't think he was posting a "counter argument," merely an opinion. For some people, not running OS X is a deal breaker. I know it would be for me. At the end of the day, sacrificing OS X wouldn't be something I'd be willing to do, even if I can run Linux instead.

If the X300 turns out to really have those specs, I'll be quite impressed by the hardware. I'm certainly not denying that. I'm not saying either is better than the other, here, just trying to remind everybody that "better" is a often a matter of differing needs and wants with computers like these, and not just hardware specs and number of ports.

clevin
Jan 28, 2008, 08:39 AM
This Lenovo is much closer in size to the MacBook than to the MBA.
how so? not to mention x300 is 3.17lbs, and MB is 5lbs

mashoutposse
Jan 28, 2008, 10:48 AM
how so? not to mention x300 is 3.17lbs, and MB is 5lbs

Volume:

Lenovo X300 - 92 in^3
MacBook Air - 53 in^3

The MBA is heavier due to the use of metals versus plastics.

heatmiser
Jan 28, 2008, 11:01 AM
At the risk of getting a lot of heat, I will say that I agree with you.

Hey, thanks. It's fun to watch the excuses pile up, though. :D

butterfly0fdoom
Jan 28, 2008, 11:23 AM
Has anyone LOOKED at that internals diagram for this purported X300 (even the name seems odd)? Do optical drives that thin even exist? Where's the SSD? The gray thing under the trackpad? That's a bit on the small side, even for a 1.8" drive, don't you think? And the battery, that looks to be the width and length of the iBook's battery and, given the thickness, probably 1/3 the thickness of the iBook's battery, and you're telling me this can get 4 hours of battery life? The first picture certainly looks real, but the specs, even for Lenovo, seem rather unrealistic.

I'm not a Lenovo hater by any means. If I didn't have such a preference to the Mac platform, I would have gotten a T60 instead of a MacBook (I switched from a T42 to an iBook when Windows crapped out on me, and my family's had at least 5 other ThinkPads that have seen more abuse than a MacBook could handle, probably). But even then, it just doesn't seem realistic.

clevin
Jan 28, 2008, 11:31 AM
Volume:

Lenovo X300 - 92 in^3
MacBook Air - 53 in^3

The MBA is heavier due to the use of metals versus plastics.

oh you didn't, tell me how you calculated it.

tell me you do understand this MBA is different than that simply illustration, and from "0.16" to 0.76" isn't a smooth gradient at all?

MBA's volume is more like ~76in^3.
x300 is ~93 in^3
MB is ~123in^3

That means x300 is closer to MBA in volume, not MB.
http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/images/gallery/4/2008/01/medium_2194963157_4aa8572bfc_o.jpg
vs
http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/images/gallery/4/2008/01/medium_2194962845_b7b36c5a26_o.jpg

Gurutech
Jan 31, 2008, 03:20 PM
If I had to choose a Windows laptop, I'd go with Lenovo. Although it's no longer IBM, they still make one of the best Windows laptops...

If you want Mac OSX, then no option.

Kaiser Phoenix
Jan 31, 2008, 04:49 PM
Are people forgetting that this thinkpad, no matter how wonderful it is, CANT run OSX????

Isnt that the whole point of using Apple products? Apple laptops were never top of the line or cutting edge but it had OSX, thats what matters!!!

Ofcourse if i could run OSX on this thinkpad, i will jump on it anyday, but until that day comes, I will use a MBA.

Kaiser Phoenix
Jan 31, 2008, 04:54 PM
There's no denying that nearly all of Apple's products suffer in terms of functionality just so they can look pretty & the MBA is the prime example of this. Apple are more concerned with their products being visually appealing than highly functional, because this is their market; pretentious style-concious people who are more concerned with their stylish image than whether their computer is actually any use as a computer. In this regard, Apple pull it off very well.


Wait wait wait, pretentious style-concious people who are more concerned with image????

Come on OSX is faaaaaaarrr more useful and productive, i can do so much with very little in terms of hardware with OSX.

What mattters is not Specs but Software in my opinion.

clevin
Jan 31, 2008, 04:59 PM
i can do so much with very little in terms of hardware with OSX.


I dont think thats an accurate statement at all.

MacTheSpoon
Jan 31, 2008, 07:20 PM
let me contribute some facts,

But the facts are misrepresented; the MBA is shown as a uniformly thick block.

At least for the 12" Powerbook, you can check out a real-life comparison:

http://gizmodo.com/348621/biggest-macbook-sizemodo-ever

macenforcer
Jan 31, 2008, 07:47 PM
:eek: This is the first time Ive ever seen anyone talk bad about thinkpads. Usually everyone is glowing about them. Iam curious what was wrong with them that you didnt like?

LENOVO CUSTOMER SERVICE!

Agathon
Feb 1, 2008, 12:05 AM
With regards to all of the comments about the ThinkPad being ugly, you have to appreciate the important facts;

Apple design: form over function
IBM design: function over form

Actually, you are completely wrong. This post demonstrates that you do not understand Apple's design philosophy at all. How many times do they have to say that function = form before some people will finally get it.

Kaiser Phoenix
Feb 1, 2008, 03:04 AM
Actually, you are completely wrong. This post demonstrates that you do not understand Apple's design philosophy at all. How many times do they have to say that function = form before some people will finally get it.

I concur!!!

applestew
Feb 1, 2008, 08:57 AM
The lenovo looks ugly and doesn't run OS X. 'Nuff said.

slffl
Feb 1, 2008, 01:57 PM
What a USELESS thread.

Call me when the Thinkpad runs OSX.

robrose20
Feb 1, 2008, 02:52 PM
nice specs, the only problem is that it runs Vista .... blech.

newmaclover
Feb 9, 2008, 05:00 PM
powerpoint slides and specs of the system: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=56967

it's only 1.2 ghz. is that a show stopper?

christof
Feb 10, 2008, 12:50 AM
Best Buy leaked the price for the 2GB/64GB configuration: $2,743. http://gizmodo.com/354327/lenovo-thinkpad-x300-series-confirmed

ruutiveijari
Feb 10, 2008, 01:02 AM
According to Gizmodo, the weight is up to 3.17 lbs (http://gizmodo.com/photogallery/x300/1000528037). Which, I believe, puts it heavier than the MPA?
Lenovo's always have a choice between a normal battery and a heavy use. Normal usually lasts about 4-6 hours (and weighs very little) and heavy use normally 8-10 hours and weighs a bit more. So the smaller weight is with a normal battery and 3.17lbs is with the heavy use.

So the Lenovo is lighter than the MBA.

r00
Feb 10, 2008, 01:04 AM
I was actually considering waiting for the X300... $2500 for a 1.2GHz C2D... NO THANKS! I'll stick with my air that's thinner and faster.

McGiord
Feb 10, 2008, 01:12 AM
A Mac is Mac no matter what.
________
Toyota C engine (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_C_engine)

ahaxton
Feb 10, 2008, 01:15 AM
I will never spend that much money on something so ugly. I would have never bought a BMW if it looked like a Honda Element or a Toyota Prius, no matter how good the insides are.

Plus I've gotten to like the whole manufacturer creating and supporting both the hardware and software.

Roba
Feb 10, 2008, 02:31 AM
I wish that Apple would have come out with something similar to this. I also don't think the Thinkpads are ugly having seen one i do quite like the look of them.
I don't understand this thinness obsession. Who really cares if something is a little bit thinner. Weight is really the most important thing. Both of these laptops both have a full sized keyboard so you cannot use that argument. I am just looking at the hardware here and not the operating system.

The x300 will have a 3/4 cell and a 6 cell battery. The battery that is currently used in the MBA is rated as a 6 cell battery because it has about 5800mah.

The MBA is not using a ULV processor. The processor that will be usd in the x300 is a ULV processor which should give it better battery life than the MBA. With a 6 cell battery Lenovo state that you should get up to 10 hours of battery life but that waits to be seen. I would rather take the better battery life.
The 1.2 ULV processor will not make it slow but the 1.8 HD that is used in the MBA might slow things down a little.

Still though ideally i would have liked the 1.8 ULV variant to have been used in both of these laptops. I would have also have liked to have seen an SD card slot in the x300 or something along those lings but i guess with 3 USB ports you can always buy an external SD card reader but for ease i would have prefered that they would have added one. It is good though that Lenovo offer the optical drive as a choice and the x300 offers greater connectivity and it is priced quite a bit lower than the the MBA.

newmaclover
Feb 10, 2008, 02:57 AM
Roba, won't the 1.2 in the x300 be way slower than the 1.8 in the MPA? The x300 should have a 5400rpm hard disk (at least one will be available according to the specs), but is that even enough to run multiple windows of office, firefox, picasa, streaming cnn, etc? i've never seen a 1.2 in action so idon't know.

chrisbeebops
Feb 10, 2008, 03:10 AM
Roba, won't the 1.2 in the x300 be way slower than the 1.8 in the MPA? The x300 should have a 5400rpm hard disk (at least one will be available according to the specs), but is that even enough to run multiple windows of office, firefox, picasa, streaming cnn, etc? i've never seen a 1.2 in action so idon't know.

Of course it will be slower. But people aren't buying laptops like this for good multitasking and raw performance. They are buying them for maximum portability and battery life.

If you are just running like Office + Mail + iChat + iTunes + Safari you aren't going to notice much difference between 1.2Ghz, 1.8Ghz and 10Ghz*, simply because these applications combined do not require anywhere near 100% cpu power. You are only going to notice a difference when running processor/graphics intensive applications like Photoshop, XCode (compiling times), 3D Modeling, etc, which actually can use 100% cpu when running.

*Obviously there is no 10Ghz processors on the market. I'm just putting that out there to stress my point.

Catch
Feb 10, 2008, 03:13 AM
I am just looking at the hardware here and not the operating system.


Let me know how that works out for you... We don't live in a world where 'what ifs' pay the bills. If you want small and OSX you have very little choice.

Personally, if I was happy using Vista I would not be on this site.

Regards,

C

Roba
Feb 10, 2008, 03:31 AM
In my experience it is usually the HD and ram that is the most crucial thing in speeding up a laptops performance. The x300 can support up to 4GB of ram and it will have a 5400 Sata HD available as an option also.

Neither of these laptops are designed for power users.

If you just intend to do email, MS Office, music and stuff like that on your computer then you will not even notice a difference between any of these processors except the ULV processor should give you better battery life which would be more ideal for travellers.

Just looking at the different processors generally the people that may notice a difference is those who intend to do more intensive stuff with their notebook but i doubt that most people who buy the MBA intend to do anything to intensive with it. It was intended to be used a second laptop and for those who travel.

Even though a higher CPU is nice whether ULV or a more standard C2D i have looked at my useage and i multi task a lot on my computer and do stuff like word processing, iTunes, download pics from my camera etc and i usually hover around 8-10% useage of my current 2.2ghz processor and i never go up to half. I know i probably would not notice a difference. Both of these processors have a 800mhz bus.

Looking at the different processors used it is people who really intend to use their computer in a more intense manner that may notice a difference. I doubt that they would notice a speed difference though. With the lacks of ports and the graphics card that is used anyway in both of these laptops they may well find themselves limited in other ways anyway.


Edited to add:
Catch i just read your post above i know what you are saying and i know that those who cannot use anything but Mac OSX have no other choice but i was putting that to one side and just looking at the hardware. Btw, i am not really interested in purchasing the x300 for myself.

Roba, won't the 1.2 in the x300 be way slower than the 1.8 in the MPA? The x300 should have a 5400rpm hard disk (at least one will be available according to the specs), but is that even enough to run multiple windows of office, firefox, picasa, streaming cnn, etc? i've never seen a 1.2 in action so idon't know.

newmaclover
Feb 10, 2008, 03:46 AM
Roba, Your posts are the best! So heplful. I'm still trying to figure out if I should purchase the MPA or not. I only do office tasks -- I keep 10 windows of email, excel, outlook, work, and firefox open. BUT I also like to stream cnn video. i'm at 97% to 100& cpu usage on my pentium m 1.6 ghz 2 ram dell d600. it's driving my crazy since the video freezes up. can i get away with the mpa since i don't do any graphic intensive video editing or photo editing? thansk! (i also use skype video to chat w/ family abroad.)

Roba
Feb 10, 2008, 03:58 AM
newmaclover based on what you have written i think that you would be ok with the MBA. The x3100 graphics card is a integrated card but this card should be able to cope with what you intend to use your laptop for.

ij3ffy
Feb 10, 2008, 04:03 AM
I don't think its ugly, its simple, functional.
Nothing wrong with that, and I can see how it appeals to others. Sometimes I wish apple would try a little less harder on looks, and a little bit more on functionality. MB Air is nice, don't get me wrong. I like it. But 1 usb port? I would sacrifice 1/16 of an inch for another..

Techguy172
Feb 10, 2008, 08:33 AM
I think as long as the CPU is powerful enough for simple tasks then it will be fine for the people using these computers but it will be that horrible hard drive that will be slow I think the Lenovo will beat the air because of a "real" Hard drive and up to 4 GB's of ram that's why it will be fast.

Catch
Feb 10, 2008, 08:41 AM
I think as long as the CPU is powerful enough for simple tasks then it will be fine for the people using these computers but it will be that horrible hard drive that will be slow I think the Lenovo will beat the air because of a "real" Hard drive and up to 4 GB's of ram that's why it will be fast.

Vista v. OSX. How can it 'beat' the MBA? They are in two different markets...

You want Vista buy the Lenovo. You want OSX, buy the MBA. It really is very simple if you think about it...

C

hexonxonx
Feb 10, 2008, 03:23 PM
That ThinkPas is all fine and good, if you don't mind going back to a Windows machine. I'm trying to avoid that and eventually never use one again. I don't have to use Windows laptops in my job thankfully. I still have two at home that hopefully will be replaced by MBP and possibly an Air.

iTeen
Feb 10, 2008, 03:24 PM
i like the thinkpad

BWhaler
Feb 10, 2008, 03:30 PM
But the MBA with SSD is at that price range. And the X300 is lighter, smaller, faster.

And runs Windows.

And there, my friend, is the rub.

Mikebuzzsaw
Feb 10, 2008, 03:32 PM
Bottom line is, if IBM ran Leopard, I'd buy it. Since it doesn't, MBA is what I bought.

ahaxton
Feb 10, 2008, 03:32 PM
Personally I think the MBA SSD is a better deal than this Thinkpad. If it ran Leopard I still wouldn't.

stevegmu
Feb 10, 2008, 03:36 PM
It looks like a crappy laptop I had in the mid 90's.

ahaxton
Feb 10, 2008, 03:38 PM
It looks like a crappy laptop I had in the mid 90's.

I remember the thinkpad commercials from back then. God did I hate them back then, probably even more now.

dsnort
Feb 10, 2008, 03:39 PM
I think there's something fishy here!!!

Okay, I just saw the leaked specs on the Lenovo Thinkpad x300. I was kind of shocked at how much the X300 outclasses the Macbook Air (lighter, faster, smaller footprint, optical drive, lots of ports, removable battery, also SSD and only a smidgen thicker).

I am really depressed to see just how inferior the mac turns out to be. Consolation - the Lenovo is as ugly as ever.

Here is a link or two
http://gizmodo.com/346797/ultralight-lenovo-x300-series-thinkpad-leaked
http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=4213

Here are the specs:
* Display: 13.3" widescreen WXGA+ (1440 x 900) display, LED backlit
* Processor Chipset: Intel Santa Rosa 2.0GHz LV
* Storage: 64GB SSD
* Wireless: Bluetooth, 802.11 a/b/g/n, Wireless USB, WWAN, WiMax, GPS
* Optical Drive: Ultrathin DVD Burner (7mm)
* Memory: up to 4G
* Dimensions: 12.5 in (width) 9 in (depth) x 0.73 in - 0.92 in (thickness)
* Ports: 3 USB ports, Mic in, Headphone out, VGA Adapter, built-in web camera, stereo speakers
* Input: ThinkPad keyboard with TrackPoint, touchpad
* Battery: 3-cell Lithium-Polymer

How on earth do they fit a 13.3" display into a comp that is not 13" in any dimension?

Jaffa Cake
Feb 10, 2008, 03:43 PM
How on earth do they fit a 13.3" display into a comp that is not 13" in any dimension?The MacBook doesn't have any dimension that's 13"+ either, according to it's specs page. (http://www.apple.com/uk/macbook/specs.html) The monitor dimension is measured on the diagonal, the width of the computer itself is measured straight across. ;)

David G.
Feb 10, 2008, 03:44 PM
I think there's something fishy here!!!

How on earth do they fit a 13.3" display into a comp that is not 13" in any dimension?

13.3 Diagonal vs. 12.5 horizontal.

ahaxton
Feb 10, 2008, 03:45 PM
Not like it matters, the leaked specs aren't true for what you will actually be able to buy. CPU is a big difference right from the bat.

duffyanneal
Feb 10, 2008, 03:47 PM
I think there's something fishy here!!!



How on earth do they fit a 13.3" display into a comp that is not 13" in any dimension?

The 13.3" is measured diagonally so yeah the actual width of the display is less than that. The MBA display is ~ 11.25 inches in width.

thechidz
Feb 10, 2008, 03:48 PM
its ugly and runs vista..

next

dsnort
Feb 10, 2008, 03:48 PM
The 13.3" is measured diagonally so yeah the actual width of the display is less than that. The MBA display is ~ 11.25 inches in width.

Ah! Thanks for explaining that.

ahaxton
Feb 10, 2008, 03:56 PM
Don't believe the leaked specs. They are inaccurate.

The leaked price of almost 3k buys you a lot less.

appletastic
Feb 10, 2008, 03:59 PM
:eek: This is the first time Ive ever seen anyone talk bad about thinkpads. Usually everyone is glowing about them. Iam curious what was wrong with them that you didnt like?

In my last job I went through about 6 Thinkpads.. various problems, but mainly dodgy plastic casing falling apart. One day I opened one of them and the whole back exploded across the room.. Which was very funny..

From now on I try and avoid plastic laptops .. I hate the creaking and sharp edges etc.. That's why my Air arrives next week! :-)

BongoBanger
Feb 10, 2008, 04:13 PM
What a USELESS thread.

Call me when the Thinkpad runs OSX.

What a useless comment. Call me when you understand that most people don't give a toss about what OS they use.

Anyway, the 1.2Ghz will be the bargain basement model (if you can call a $3K laptop 'bargain basement'). I assume they'll issue more powerful models later.

ahaxton
Feb 10, 2008, 04:17 PM
What a useless comment. Call me when you understand that most people don't give a toss about what OS they use.

Anyway, the 1.2Ghz will be the bargain basement model (if you can call a $3K laptop 'bargain basement'). I assume they'll issue more powerful models later.

3k lower powered significantly than a MBA SSD, crappy design and lackluster build quality. Don't see how anyone could want this machine. Apple actually used some engineering prowess to do what they did with the MBA. This Lenovo is overpriced garbage.

drummerlondonw3
Feb 10, 2008, 04:43 PM
I have to use a thinkpad at work and I do have too admit (painful fingers while typing) that its the best range out there if you have to use windows.

However, if it was MY money I would still go for the MBA. Its a nicer package and easier to integrate (admittedly apple) lifestyle, network etc.

The difference is its often not your own money these days and if you get too choose a new laptop for work, university etc and its a thinkpad or dell I know I would go for the thinkpad anyday

kockgunner
Feb 10, 2008, 05:31 PM
Wow nice specs but it must be hella expensive. What is so good about thinkpads anyway? I'm not trying to diss them, I am generally interested. Besides their phyrsical ruggedness, what makes them so reliable (software-wise) as they are still running windows?

kockgunner
Feb 10, 2008, 05:33 PM
What a useless comment. Call me when you understand that most people don't give a toss about what OS they use.

Anyway, the 1.2Ghz will be the bargain basement model (if you can call a $3K laptop 'bargain basement'). I assume they'll issue more powerful models later.

Actually for many people, the OS is just as important as hardware. Why do you think people buy Macs over lower priced and higher spec'd machines?

butterfly0fdoom
Feb 10, 2008, 07:32 PM
What a useless comment. Call me when you understand that most people don't give a toss about what OS they use.

It actually makes quite a difference, even when you least expect it. Some people are adamant about sticking with Windows, some people are adamant about using Mac OS X, even people that don't know much about computers.

seedster2
Feb 10, 2008, 08:10 PM
3k lower powered significantly than a MBA SSD, crappy design and lackluster build quality. Don't see how anyone could want this machine. Apple actually used some engineering prowess to do what they did with the MBA. This Lenovo is overpriced garbage.

I like the design of the MBA and will have one in a week or two (the thinness is irrelevant to me, the weight is the real priority, I dont care about tapered marketing nonsense).

But to question thinkpad's build quality is ridiculous. They have an amazing reputation for quality and reliability. They are business grade machines without the frills

Im typing on one from work and it has been bulletproof for over year. If the X300 ran Leopard and XPs2 I wouldn't even be looking at an AIR.

BWhaler
Feb 10, 2008, 08:10 PM
What a useless comment. Call me when you understand that most people don't give a toss about what OS they use.

Anyway, the 1.2Ghz will be the bargain basement model (if you can call a $3K laptop 'bargain basement'). I assume they'll issue more powerful models later.



So the 5,000,000 who bought the leopard upgrade in the past 70 days don't give a toss about what OS they use?"

The 100,000,000 people who bought the XP upgrade don't give a toss about what OS they run?

The people who waited in line to upgrade to Win95 don't care?

The fact that Intel, Dell, Lenovo, Gateway, HP bet their earnings last year to Wall Street on people buying new computers to run Vista? And the tens of thousands of analysts who believed them? (Shame Vista was a disaster.)

Or how people are leaving for Linux or OS X don't give a toss either?

What I find so funny about comments like yours is you don't understand market segments. Yes, there are segments of the market which don't care nor understand what an OS is.

But there are tens of millions of people who do.

And for SOME people in the market, those who chose to run OS X, iLife, iWork, etc. the MacBook Air is their product of choice because it is the lightest laptop which runs OS X. And even if the Lenovo laptop was free, it wouldn't matter.

Useless comment? Only to you, my man. (ANd you're in for a sad disappointment if you don't see the bad news coming on the vaporware press release.)

To the 9 guys I know who bought MBA's, it was their #1 reason for buying the MBA. And to Apple, that's all they care about.

Kids these days...

ahaxton
Feb 10, 2008, 08:17 PM
I like the design of the MBA and will have one in a week or two (the thinness is irrelevant to me, the weight is the real priority, I dont care about tapered marketing nonsense).

But to question thinkpad's build quality is ridiculous. They have an amazing reputation for quality and reliability. They are business grade machines without the frills

Im typing on one from work and it has been bulletproof for over year. If the X300 ran Leopard and XPs2 I wouldn't even be looking at an AIR.

I don't care how good the machine is on the inside, if it isn't good looking on the outside, I am not buying it.

To be honest this "mba killer" Lenovo is a waste of space. Almost 3k for specs below that of a MBA. The leaked specs looked better, but it was obvious that it wasn't going to happen. The MBA did something amazing. Lenovo's isn't anything special. Anyone can do what they did with this thinkpad.

camarobh
Feb 10, 2008, 08:22 PM
The fact that Intel, Dell, Lenovo, Gateway, HP bet their earnings last year to Wall Street on people buying new computers to run Vista? And the tens of thousands of analysts who believed them? (Shame Vista was a disaster.)


You have this part backwards....people aren't buying new computers to run Vista, they get Vista when they buy the computer (except for Apple of course). The only way that Vista achieves the sales numbers it does is due to pre-installation agreements with hardware manufacturers.

kuwisdelu
Feb 10, 2008, 08:40 PM
You have this part backwards....people aren't buying new computers to run Vista, they get Vista when they buy the computer (except for Apple of course). The only way that Vista achieves the sales numbers it does is due to pre-installation agreements with hardware manufacturers.

That certainly had an affect, but also there were many people who wanted to run Vista (expecting it to be better) but found that it required specs beyond their current computer's capabilities to run smoothly, and were thus forced to buy a new machine.

wildmannz
Feb 10, 2008, 09:06 PM
VGA?

No thanks.

camarobh
Feb 10, 2008, 09:42 PM
That certainly had an affect, but also there were many people who wanted to run Vista (expecting it to be better) but found that it required specs beyond their current computer's capabilities to run smoothly, and were thus forced to buy a new machine.

Agreed, but I bet the number of people who ended up with Vista because they ordered a new machine far exceeds the number of people who wanted it in the first place. Think about it, virtually every PC manufactured today (with the exception of Apple) defaults to Vista when you buy it. It is automatic market share.

aiongiant
Feb 10, 2008, 09:45 PM
yeap
now we know how MS can afford to offer $45 billion for Yahoo lol
insane considering Apple only has $16 billion in the bank

kuwisdelu
Feb 10, 2008, 09:47 PM
Agreed, but I bet the number of people who ended up with Vista because they ordered a new machine far exceeds the number of people who wanted it in the first place. Think about it, virtually every PC manufactured today (with the exception of Apple) defaults to Vista when you buy it. It is automatic market share.

I don't know about this. Before people found out about the truth about Vista vs. XP, I suspect a lot of people were looking forward to a better OS. I certainly know a lot who were, and ended up rather disappointed. But then, I'm not really disagreeing with you, just wondering aloud. I really have no idea, but it'd be interesting to see the numbers.

dsnort
Feb 10, 2008, 09:52 PM
What a useless comment. Call me when you understand that most people don't give a toss about what OS they use.

Speaking of useless comments.

To me the hardware doesn't matter. If it's not running OS X, then that Lenovo is a 3 lb paperweight. And I don't need any of those.

diabolic
Feb 10, 2008, 09:54 PM
Before people found out about the truth about Vista vs. XP, I suspect a lot of people were looking forward to a better OS.

I was one of those people. I have 3 systems that I upgraded to Vista when it came out. I had to downgrade all 3 back to XP within 2 months due to software incompatibilities and performance.

hotsauce
Feb 10, 2008, 10:10 PM
In my last job I went through about 6 Thinkpads.. various problems, but mainly dodgy plastic casing falling apart. One day I opened one of them and the whole back exploded across the room.. Which was very funny..

From now on I try and avoid plastic laptops .. I hate the creaking and sharp edges etc.. That's why my Air arrives next week! :-)

A thinkpad ate my baby. Hyperbole much?

ctt1wbw
Feb 11, 2008, 03:30 AM
Speaking of useless comments.

To me the hardware doesn't matter. If it's not running OS X, then that Lenovo is a 3 lb paperweight. And I don't need any of those.

That's the whole point. I've had a Thinkpad. It was nice machine, but no matter how nice it is or the specs on it, it still runs Windows. I have hated Windows since I started using it at version 2.1. It's still not anywhere near OS X yet. Yes, there are more games for Windows, but games (imho) do not and should not be considered actual "software" for computers.

Allmec
Feb 11, 2008, 07:46 AM
;-p

BongoBanger
Feb 11, 2008, 07:47 AM
So the 5,000,000 who bought the leopard upgrade in the past 70 days don't give a toss about what OS they use?"

A couple of points:

1) How many of those sales were pre-installed versions of Leopard on new Macs?
2) The word I used was 'most'. The calculation below explains why 5,000,000 is still a minority figure even if it's a pure upgrade which it's not.

The 100,000,000 people who bought the XP upgrade don't give a toss about what OS they run?

I assume you're talking about those upgrading from Me or 98? It's an upgrade to another variant of Windows, they're not changing the OS they use to OSX or Linux. The point here is they're not changing the OS provider, they're upgrading an existing OS to support new features.

In any event it’s a moot point: Lets look at the number of PCs sold over XP's lifecycle from 2001 to 2008. Conservatively I'm going to say that it's about 1.2 billion Windows based units which means your upgrade figure of 100 million accounts for about 8% of that number meaning... yes, you've guessed it!... most (i.e. over 90%) people just bought their PC with the OS installed!

The people who waited in line to upgrade to Win95 don't care?

From Windows 3.1. Another MS OS. Again see above.

The fact that Intel, Dell, Lenovo, Gateway, HP bet their earnings last year to Wall Street on people buying new computers to run Vista? And the tens of thousands of analysts who believed them? (Shame Vista was a disaster.)

Uh... they made their earnings figures - well, except Dell - and Vista was pre-installed except where a choice was given (by Dell for example). You should also note that hardware sales are not dependent on software sales.

As for Vista being a disaster, LOL! You might want to check usage versus OSX as well as sales.

Or how people are leaving for Linux or OS X don't give a toss either?

Last I looked the combined usage in the global PC market was still considerably less than 10%. Quite considerably less actually.

What I find so funny about comments like yours is you don't understand market segments.

They’re not as amusing as those who think they do but clearly don’t.

Yes, there are segments of the market which don't care nor understand what an OS is.

They’re called 'the vast majority'.

But there are tens of millions of people who do.

There were 280 million PCs sold last year. Even assuming there are 20 million people who cared what OS they used that means there were 260 million - or over 90% if you prefer - who just use the off the shelf OS they got.

What part of 'most' are you having trouble with?

And for SOME people in the market, those who chose to run OS X, iLife, iWork, etc. the MacBook Air is their product of choice because it is the lightest laptop which runs OS X. And even if the Lenovo laptop was free, it wouldn't matter.

Yes, they're called the... wait for it... minority!

Useless comment? Only to you, my man. (ANd you're in for a sad disappointment if you don't see the bad news coming on the vaporware press release.)

See, before you ranted off you should have checked your information. The fact remains the vast majority of people who buy a PC don't care what OS they use. Everyone knows that OSX is more stable than XP or Vista because its tailored to one manufacturer and, frankly, Vista isn't anything to write home about but most people don't actually care as long as they can play games or browse or write a letter to the council complaining about rubbish collection.

So let's reiterate the point:

Over 90% of people use the original OS that the system came with.

Again, what part of ‘most people’ don't you get?

To the 9 guys I know who bought MBA's, it was their #1 reason for buying the MBA. And to Apple, that's all they care about.

Good for them, it's a minority market though.

Kids these days...

I know. If you had done your homework you wouldn't look like such an ill informed dolt. Unfortunately you do.

Come back when you have a clue.

kuwisdelu
Feb 11, 2008, 07:48 AM
SO will the IBM or MBA fly further? ;-p

The Air is much more aerodynamic. And, well, look at the name!

czerc111
Feb 12, 2008, 03:18 AM
In one of my previous jobs, I was forced to work with Thinkpads back when IBM produced them. I went through THREE of them! On one, the screen went out, the second, the hard drive failed and the third failed to wake up one morning. Sure, it's nice to have all of those extra ports and drives and such but to go back to Windows AND unreliable hardware? No thanks. There is a reason why I drive a BMW and not a Ford. Same reason that I own two powerbooks and no windows machines.

johnlvx
Feb 12, 2008, 09:00 AM
In one of my previous jobs, I was forced to work with Thinkpads back when IBM produced them. I went through THREE of them! On one, the screen went out, the second, the hard drive failed and the third failed to wake up one morning. Sure, it's nice to have all of those extra ports and drives and such but to go back to Windows AND unreliable hardware? No thanks. There is a reason why I drive a BMW and not a Ford. Same reason that I own two powerbooks and no windows machines.

This is the exact opposite experience from mine. Every mac I have ever owned except for my iMac has had build issues and been returned. Two SR MBP's, both of which had yellow screens and one of them also had a raised trackpad corner that would catch on anything that brushed across the surface of the machine. My Air also got returned for running hot, noisy and having laughable battery life (90 minutes)("But you ran windows on it in a VM!!!!! It's Windows fault!!..... PLEASE.. WHAT A COPOUT).

On the other hand, my thinkpads are tanks. When lenovo first took full command of the product, there was a generation of machines with build issues. When this happened, there werent a handful of devotees that called and griped, there were many companies calling and threatening to no longer buy their 100, 1000 or 10000 machines a year (my company was one of those). So, what happened? The cleaned up their act and the machines we have been getting for the past two years have been great. When one isnt, they hand deliver a replacement.

This is subjective. I like mac and I like OSX. But I cannot say for instance that OSX with any of it's add on software can even compare to say, Office 2007 suite with OneNote and a well put together sharepoint portal. It is a dream to work with in a business environment. Now when it comes to organizing my photos, making movies to email to my family and the like, I laugh at the lousy stuff in windows for doing it. OSX is IMO clearly superior. Not only that, but the beauty of OSX inspires me to use my mac in ways that augment my personal life. That is one thing windows does not do for me.

It is really kinda goofy to compare the two. OSX is like a Porsche, XP/Vista is like a Ford Superduty. They are made for different reasons and for different people. Im the type of guy who relies on and loves his Superduty... but likes to enjoy the Porsche too.

MazingerZ
Feb 13, 2008, 08:00 AM
Mossberg's preview...

http://mossblog.allthingsd.com/20080213/x300/

jayducharme
Feb 13, 2008, 09:32 AM
but the hardware itself has proved itself to be very reliable over time.

I had one for a few years, and that Trackpoint was a pain in the butt. After a while, it wouldn't go back to its neutral position and the cursor would drift all over the screen. I don't know why they couldn't just use a trackpad.

TechHistorian
Feb 13, 2008, 09:33 AM
What a useless comment. Call me when you understand that most people don't give a toss about what OS they use.

For most people, true. Then again, most people don't use Macs. Mac users, however, do care about the OS they use. Despite what many posters on this thread believe, Mac users also care about function, especially when that function is Apple's trusted GUI. Case in point: the clone era. PowerComputing and Motorola bit heavily into Apple's sales at the time. Mac users didn't necessarily see Apple as the be-all and end-all of hardware back then. Indeed, a good number of us pointed out that PowerComputing actually offered better machines than Apple did. But what we really cared about was the OS. PowerComputing sold machines that Apple's OS and were better spec'ed. But it was the OS that was key then. And for the vast majority of Mac users now, it still is.

You might note that this is MacRumors .... ;)

jayducharme
Feb 13, 2008, 09:36 AM
rescinded... accidental post

LOL! They even show the thing sitting on top of a manila envelope! But I'd bet they'd never slide it inside, because its greater bulk would be painfully evident compared with the Air.

UltraNEO*
Feb 13, 2008, 09:43 AM
I think it'll be more interesting to see a MacBook Air beater... I mean, a system that's just as thin, as light and as friendly to use (probably not possible)... regardless of it's OS compatibility. I don't think the average windows user can have a system without a optical drive, if they're planning to plugin stuff - anystuff...


Then again, you have to remember 99% of our Mac's share the same hardware platform as the competitor, so in theory a user could get Leopard (or some other BIGCAT) running on a non-Apple system, weather they can make it run natively and update it after, well.. remains to be seen.

Personally, I'd buy a Apple system and run our lovely OS on there... It's kinda nice to know we don't really have hardware incompatibility issues, phew! no headaches! :D

feraca
Feb 13, 2008, 10:12 AM
I think Lenovo's are the best laptops to run windows of any flavor - bought 200 of them in my former job. But if you want the best laptop experience (not a desktop replacement like my old 17" powerbook) you need to work with the air for a week and you won't want anything else.

My biggest issue on a laptop is the trackpad. The gesture capability is the biggest differentiator. I always used an external mouse on every other laptop I owned mac & pc and with the Air I have not had the urge to use one yet. Browsing the web takes no effort. Swipe / scroll etc on the trackpad vs navigating to the tiny scroll bars or back button - no contest - try it for a while and you'll see.. :)

BongoBanger
Feb 13, 2008, 11:02 AM
For most people, true. Then again, most people don't use Macs. Mac users, however, do care about the OS they use.

Never the point I was arguing. It just irritates me when someone makes a silly point like that one. Mac users do care or they wouldn't be using Macs.

You might note that this is MacRumors .... ;)

Oh I know, but that's no excuse for not admitting a basic truth though.

dthree36
Feb 13, 2008, 05:08 PM
I think its great that other PC builders are getting on the slim laptop bandwagon. But as a former Windows only user, I have to say I just prefer the Mac experience over windows. I say release all the slimmest most port supporting, internal DVD integrated solution you can make. As for me, I just prefer OSX and the Air for now. Maybe I would care more if OSX could be installed on a Windows laptop with out hacks. I love ingenuity and new designs but for now, I just love my MBA.

diabolic
Feb 13, 2008, 05:16 PM
The gesture capability is the biggest differentiator. I always used an external mouse on every other laptop I owned mac & pc and with the Air I have not had the urge to use one yet. Browsing the web takes no effort. Swipe / scroll etc on the trackpad vs navigating to the tiny scroll bars or back button - no contest - try it for a while and you'll see.. :)

As dumb as I'm sure it sounds to those who haven't tried it, I completely agree. Using the gestures to browse the web on my MBA has spoiled me already. I keep trying to do it when I am using my Dell laptop. Guess I need to quit using the Dell. :)

kimkrause
Feb 13, 2008, 05:23 PM
you guys are mad...this ugly thing is 13 inches "wide" not a 13 inch wide screen. and that stinkpad keyboard is a tacky piece of crap. and the price? well ya get what ya pay for! how can you even compare it to the beauty of the MBA?

weckart
Feb 13, 2008, 06:12 PM
Thinkpads were universally acknowledged to have by far the best keyboards on any laptop, ever. I have used plenty in my time and can only agree, although I thought the Thinkpads were otherwise quite fugly and utilitarian. Unless Lenovo has dicked around with the design of its keyboards, there is no way the Air's keyboard will even be in the same league.

Techguy172
Feb 13, 2008, 06:52 PM
you guys are mad...this ugly thing is 13 inches "wide" not a 13 inch wide screen. and that stinkpad keyboard is a tacky piece of crap. and the price? well ya get what ya pay for! how can you even compare it to the beauty of the MBA?

This is exactly why I apple people are known as bad people Lenovo has the best keyboards in the world The MBA is not suitable for many people just because it looks good doesn't mean it is.

MacTheSpoon
Feb 13, 2008, 10:28 PM
I've heard bad things about Lenovo-built Thinkpads. Supposedly the reliability has decreased greatly since IBM was making them. Our IT department started recommending Dells instead of Lenovos because of the quality issues. That gives me pause about this x300, too; this will be the first Lenovo-designed laptop (IBM designed the previous ones). Not sure how solid it will be.

Tosser
Feb 13, 2008, 11:07 PM
I've heard bad things about Lenovo-built Thinkpads. Supposedly the reliability has decreased greatly since IBM was making them. Our IT department started recommending Dells instead of Lenovos because of the quality issues. That gives me pause about this x300, too; this will be the first Lenovo-designed laptop (IBM designed the previous ones). Not sure how solid it will be.

Haha, and you somehow recon a Mac has better build quality than the Thinkpads? :rolleyes:

you guys are mad...this ugly thing is 13 inches "wide" not a 13 inch wide screen.

You obviously are blinded, fanboy.

The Thinkpad is physically 12.5 inches wide, and the widescreen is 13.3 inches _diagonally_ – just like the Airbook. Only: The Airbook is physically much wider.

and that stinkpad keyboard is a tacky piece of crap. and the price? well ya get what ya pay for! how can you even compare it to the beauty of the MBA?

Besides the fanboyism from your quarters, its obvious that you wouldn't go to lengths you do to defend the Airbook that really is a toy compared to this, unless you were having a serious bout of envy. It shines through, you know.

What strikes me about this, is all the SJ-fans that were all "wow! this Airbook is an engineering feat" and so on ad nauseum seems to have shut up. All we're left with is "Man, the Airbook is so beautiful – everything else is ugly and therefore it has to be crap".

butterfly0fdoom
Feb 13, 2008, 11:17 PM
As a former ThinkPad user, I must admit that ThinkPads are probably the best Windows machines. Their build quality is impeccable and their keyboards are incredible. Unfortunately, the OS that they come with is atrocious.

Federico
Feb 13, 2008, 11:20 PM
IBM x300= uglyyyyyy, in that case Sony is better

HLdan
Feb 13, 2008, 11:36 PM
I've heard bad things about Lenovo-built Thinkpads. Supposedly the reliability has decreased greatly since IBM was making them. Our IT department started recommending Dells instead of Lenovos because of the quality issues. That gives me pause about this x300, too; this will be the first Lenovo-designed laptop (IBM designed the previous ones). Not sure how solid it will be.

Why does this forum always label Mac users as bad people? If a Mac user says something negative about a Windows machine they are called bad and are accused of belonging to a cult.

And why is it when a Mac user praises a Mac then they are called a fanboy?

I certainly don't like this rude name calling.

What do you call Windows users? Are they perfect angels that deserve to call Mac users all these names?

Tosser
Feb 13, 2008, 11:39 PM
its ugly and runs vista..

next

If going by their other X-series, this can also be delivered with XP.

Further, I wouldn't even feel guilty if I made it a dual boot hackintosh. Well, a little towards the thinkpad, as I think one should run a nice distro of Linux on it. –*a true wild rover :cool:

happyslayer
Feb 14, 2008, 12:13 AM
The ULV 1.2 CPU is an absolute deal breaker. For those that had never used the Sony TZ with the 1.2, let me tell you it is very slow. There is a massive difference between the ULV and LV chips wen it comes to performance.

If battery life is the main concern... then maybe. Otherwise the MBA will be a way less frustrating experience.

On the question of whether people care about their OS, my experience as a computer consultant this past year has proven that people DO care.

I hear from users both business and personal... Will it have Vista? I hear Vista is really bad and slow with lot of problems. Lets just stick with XP. Also, I would guess that I now have about 20 percent more Mac OSX using customers just in this past year then in the last 10 years.

I just switched back to a Mac laptop because of the Air. Having owned about 8 ultraportable (3 lb or less) Windows based laptops (all without integrated optical) I can honestly say this MBA is the nicest, best built, easiest to use laptop.

Lenovo is not bad, but that ULV processor will make it slow!

Kind of disjointed statements, but I am giving my thoughts on a lot of points made in the last 7 pages.

BWhaler
Feb 14, 2008, 12:21 AM
A couple of points:

1) How many of those sales were pre-installed versions of Leopard on new Macs?

Zero. This is a different stat.


2) The word I used was 'most'. The calculation below explains why 5,000,000 is still a minority figure even if it's a pure upgrade which it's not.


Nope. 2.1M new units sold over same period. This makes it the majority, and means there is a large segment that care about the OS.

I assume you're talking about those upgrading from Me or 98? It's an upgrade to another variant of Windows, they're not changing the OS they use to OSX or Linux. The point here is they're not changing the OS provider, they're upgrading an existing OS to support new features.

Thanks for making my point.

Your point was "people don't give a toss about OS." But you are correct, that people do upgrade their OS for new features. Whether it is in the same family of OS was not your nor my point.

I'll ignore the rest since you so nicely made my point right here. Thanks for saving me the time to read of the rest.

Come back when you have a clue.

Thank you for giving me permission. You are one class act.

butterfly0fdoom
Feb 14, 2008, 01:04 AM
I've heard bad things about Lenovo-built Thinkpads. Supposedly the reliability has decreased greatly since IBM was making them. Our IT department started recommending Dells instead of Lenovos because of the quality issues. That gives me pause about this x300, too; this will be the first Lenovo-designed laptop (IBM designed the previous ones). Not sure how solid it will be.

Lenovo actually designed the Z60. And the T60. And the X60. And the R60. IBM's last designs were the 41/42s.

Tosser
Feb 14, 2008, 01:24 AM
I just switched back to a Mac laptop because of the Air.
Odd, because you strike me a through-and-through Mac user:


If battery life is the main concern... then maybe. Otherwise the MBA will be a way less frustrating experience.

The reason I quote that is that there could be other reasons for choosing the X300 over the Airbook, why don't you mention them? I don't get that. To me, that makes your statement about being a PC consultant rather suspicious. Unless, of course, "consultant" simply means "sales man" – quite a difference.

Anyway, let's see if we can find other "main concerns":

Matte screen: A definate plus for a pro – especially if working with pictures (I'm not, I just do audio). I will not buy a computer with a glossy screen – especially not a laptop.

Better keyboard: If I were to write a lot, I might choose the one with the best keyboard, no? That, to me, is the Thinkpad.

Or how about WWAN/Wimax? You see, as there are no expansion ports on the MBA, one might quickly run out of options for this sort of thing on the MBA. Some people (at least around here) actually use those things to get work done.

Or, how about someone using an app that needs a dongle (some of us do) or otherwise need more than one USB port. With the Airbook, you're pretty lost. Perhaps that could very well be yet another "main concern".

Another "main concern" [sigh! It seems endless], could be someone who actully needs to burn or run a cd from time to time, but are not willing to take the weight penalty and clutter offered with the "solution" from Apple (i.e. external).

I think, that with all those "main concerns", one could easily turn your pseudo argument around and say "If your main concern is watching movies (which looks best on a glossy screen, I admit), or your main concern is having a backlit keyboard and having a place to plug your iPod into", then the MBA is the computer for you.


Having owned about 8 ultraportable (3 lb or less) Windows based laptops (all without integrated optical) I can honestly say this MBA is the nicest, best built, easiest to use laptop.

Sorry, but if my experiences with apple's hardware in the last four years or so is anything to go by, the build quality leaves much to be desired. Yes, they look nice and they run my favourite OS, but that's about it. But then again, they're silver. Boy, am I tired of anodised aluminium …

Lenovo is not bad, but that ULV processor will make it slow!
Propably. But to many people it will be much more useful than the MBA: the MBA may have a quicker processor (as far as we know), but it packs nothing. Most people can get their work done on a little slower computer, but many won't be able to get started, if they can't plug in, or otherwise are inhibited.

ctt1wbw
Feb 14, 2008, 02:22 AM
Wimax is a gimmic. If you get a certain one running under a certain brand, then that company rapes you with the rates, or goes under... what then?

Roba
Feb 14, 2008, 04:41 AM
Actually after reading more things on the X300 online i don't think that Lenovo will be using the ULV processors in the x300 notebook it appears that it will be using the LV voltage processors.

The 4GB of ram and the 5400 rpm HD will help to improve the speed of this laptop.
A 1.2ghz LV processor will be fine for the majority of users. The MBA uses a L voltage processor. The LV processors and the ULV voltage processors draw less power and therefore should extend battery life.

The TZ is an ultraportable laptop designed with battery life in mind.

The ULV 1.2 CPU is an absolute deal breaker. For those that had never used the Sony TZ with the 1.2, let me tell you it is very slow. There is a massive difference between the ULV and LV chips wen it comes to performance.

If battery life is the main concern... then maybe. Otherwise the MBA will be a way less frustrating experience.

On the question of whether people care about their OS, my experience as a computer consultant this past year has proven that people DO care.

I hear from users both business and personal... Will it have Vista? I hear Vista is really bad and slow with lot of problems. Lets just stick with XP. Also, I would guess that I now have about 20 percent more Mac OSX using customers just in this past year then in the last 10 years.

I just switched back to a Mac laptop because of the Air. Having owned about 8 ultraportable (3 lb or less) Windows based laptops (all without integrated optical) I can honestly say this MBA is the nicest, best built, easiest to use laptop.

Lenovo is not bad, but that ULV processor will make it slow!

Kind of disjointed statements, but I am giving my thoughts on a lot of points made in the last 7 pages.

Tosser
Feb 14, 2008, 05:37 AM
Wimax is a gimmic. If you get a certain one running under a certain brand, then that company rapes you with the rates, or goes under... what then?

Hmm, that depends where in the world you are. But are you saying it's a bad idea to give the consumer the choice whether he consider a given rate "rape"?

You could say the same thing with basically anything new. And with that argument, howcome it's okay to pay a 1000 US$ for a horrendously slow SSD in the Airbook, or pay through your nose for an iPhone (both up front and for the expensive 2.5G rates)?
Boy, has apple found their sweet spot when it comes to their utmost loyal customers: You can peddle them anything, even high rates, as long as they believe that modern technology and consumer's choice is bad. And a lot – weirdly enough – does. It's the new lowest common denominator: Buy a crippled product at high rates. We guarantee it cannot do what other products can do. It's a sale!! I never thought the distortion field was that strong.

On the other hand, people still believe that Apple's hardware is "excellent quality".

BongoBanger
Feb 14, 2008, 02:10 PM
Zero. This is a different stat.

Super. You'll note that I mention it's a moot point because it still only means 5 million people upgraded their OS from a yearly sales population of over 270 million. That would be, what, about 2%. Hell, let's add in the Vista upgrades (say 10 million?) and that brings it up to 6% of the market sales for a year.

Whee!

Again, what part of 'most' are you having difficulty with?

Nope. 2.1M new units sold over same period. This makes it the majority, and means there is a large segment that care about the OS.

No, it may make it the majority of Mac Users - most of whom probably do care about their OS - whereas most Windows user - who largely don't and who make up the majority of the purchases - didn't.

So, as far as PC users - which includes Macs and Windows units - go most really don't care about their OS. Perhaps I should have explicitly mentioned that I was talking about the global PC population but, you know, I thought that might have been obvious.

Guess I overestimated you.

Thanks for making my point.

LOL!

Your point was "people don't give a toss about OS."

Oh dear, no. What I said was:

"most people don't give a toss about what OS they use"

Care to have a stab at what the key word in that sentence is? Or would you rather keep painting yourself into a corner?

But you are correct, that people do upgrade their OS for new features. Whether it is in the same family of OS was not your nor my point.

You're right. My point is that the vast majority of people stick with the original OS they get on the unit they buy.

I'll ignore the rest since you so nicely made my point right here. Thanks for saving me the time to read of the rest.

I would have settled for you actually reading my first post properly as it would have saved you from trying to look like a smart arse when you replied - something you failed miserably at.

Thank you for giving me permission. You are one class act.

Only in comparison, sport.

BWhaler
Feb 14, 2008, 11:54 PM
The actual specs are comical:

800 Mhz single core processes. 800 mhz???
3.13 - 3.51 pounds
1gig memory standard
1 hour less battery life than MBA.
larger cubic space
No DVI out
Runs Windows (the real killer)

(And ugly as sin to boot...)

I'm saying it's better or worse--depends on your needs--but it is funny how the real deal is nowhere near the hype.

Roba
Feb 15, 2008, 01:38 AM
I thought the weight was 2.93lbs without optical drive and the standard battery it weighs 3.13lbs with optical drive and standard battery. The MBA weighs 3.7lbs with optical drive.

It will also be using a core 2 duo procesor a LV one and not a core solo processor.

The standard battery is a 3 or a 4 cell battery for the x300. The standard battery for the MBA is a 6 cell battery that is rated at around 5800mah. If you want to do a like for like comparsion you will need to compare the MBA battery life with a 6 cell extended battery that is also aviable for this model. If you do this the battery life given is actually better than that given for the MBA. In fact Lenovo state up to 6 hours 50 minutes battery life for this model with the extended battery.

I am not to sure about the ram but the ram is user upgradeable and ram is not so expensive to buy anymore.
http://usera.imagecave.com/picturesmac/2x300.jpg



The actual specs are comical:

800 Mhz single core processes. 800 mhz???
3.13 - 3.51 pounds
1gig memory standard
1 hour less battery life than MBA.
larger cubic space
No DVI out
Runs Windows (the real killer)

(And ugly as sin to boot...)

I'm saying it's better or worse--depends on your needs--but it is funny how the real deal is nowhere near the hype.

ruutiveijari
Feb 15, 2008, 02:35 AM
3.13 - 3.51 pounds
1 hour less battery life than MBA.
Actually it has THREE choices when it comes to battery life.

At 3.13 lbs (3 cell battery) it's 4.3 hrs
At 3.32 lbs (6 cell battery) it's 6.5 hrs
At 3.51 lbs (6 + 3 cell battery) it's 10 hours

http://www.engadget.com/photos/secrets-of-the-thinkpad-x300-what-walt-didnt-tell-you/

ctt1wbw
Feb 15, 2008, 02:45 AM
Hmm, that depends where in the world you are. But are you saying it's a bad idea to give the consumer the choice whether he consider a given rate "rape"?

You could say the same thing with basically anything new. And with that argument, howcome it's okay to pay a 1000 US$ for a horrendously slow SSD in the Airbook, or pay through your nose for an iPhone (both up front and for the expensive 2.5G rates)?
Boy, has apple found their sweet spot when it comes to their utmost loyal customers: You can peddle them anything, even high rates, as long as they believe that modern technology and consumer's choice is bad. And a lot – weirdly enough – does. It's the new lowest common denominator: Buy a crippled product at high rates. We guarantee it cannot do what other products can do. It's a sale!! I never thought the distortion field was that strong.

On the other hand, people still believe that Apple's hardware is "excellent quality".

No, I'm talking cell phone carriers raping you with charges. What if the rate is one set price, then they raise it 20% and you decide to cancel? Then you're stuck.

Tosser
Feb 15, 2008, 03:04 AM
No, I'm talking cell phone carriers raping you with charges. What if the rate is one set price, then they raise it 20% and you decide to cancel? Then you're stuck.

I know – As I said, it depends where you are in the world. Here they cannot just raise it like that. Besides, noone is forcing you to use it. I am saying that it's good if it's there, and that it's better to let the customer choose, rather than saying what you're saying: Concluding that that hypothetical scenario you're describing is worse than saying to the customers (of the hardware manufacturer) "Sorry, you cannot have X, Y and/or Z hardware, because we thought it better to NOT give you a choice on the off-chance that some phone company where you live might rip you off."

I don't know if I'm making it clear enough, but you ARE saying - if parallelled to the iPhone - "no, people shouldn't be able to buy a 3G one, because AT&T might screw people over", or, if how about the internet? Some places, there is a de facto (and some places a real) monopoly. Should they then be denied access to that too, on the basis that someone might raise prices, forcing you to stop the subscription? It's endless. You can use your argument to halt anything and everything. How about insurance? "No, sorry, Sir. We have made a law against insurance, because the companies might raise prices so some people cannot afford them" (i.e. health care "over there"). Noone buying that Lenovo is forced onto a given carrier. It's your choice – you can choose one, or you can choose not to. It appears Jobs & Co have pruned you well.

I guess though, that you have to go to extremes to make it look like it's "looking after their (apple) customers, when _not_ offering any of those features". It's the bloody reality distortion field over again – only this time, you're really twisting it into a whole new shape.

ADD: Let me feed it to you with spoons: You're not "stuck", because you suddenly don't have a wwan subscription to some carrier. Then it's just another laptop, with the _option_ to choose a carrier of you liking. And that without having to use the only USB-port for a dongle. It's not the bloody iPhone. Noone is getting you "stuck" anywhere. Besides Apple, of course.

That ought to have cleaned it up.

em500
Feb 15, 2008, 03:34 AM
The actual specs are comical:
800 Mhz single core processes. 800 mhz???

That's the speed of the front side bus.

em500
Feb 15, 2008, 04:18 AM
Businessweek has a nice glimpse behind the scenes of the X300 development (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_08/b4072042350389.htm?chan=magazine+channel_top+stories), and how nervous they were about getting upstaged by Apple :).

A revealing tidbit is that internally Lenovo projects only 60,000-130,000 sales in the first year. The Air will probably do much better than that. The X300 is even more of a prestige project than the Air is. This is mainly due to their decision to go SSD-only (which is the biggest reason for the $2500+ starting price).

ruutiveijari
Feb 15, 2008, 08:39 AM
This is mainly due to their decision to go SSD-only (which is the biggest reason for the $2500+ starting price).
http://www.engadget.com/photos/secrets-of-the-thinkpad-x300-what-walt-didnt-tell-you/641839/

According to that link there's also going to be an option for a 120GB HDD (5400RPM).

Tosser
Feb 15, 2008, 10:07 AM
Businessweek has a nice glimpse behind the scenes of the X300 development (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_08/b4072042350389.htm?chan=magazine+channel_top+stories), and how nervous they were about getting upstaged by Apple :).

A revealing tidbit is that internally Lenovo projects only 60,000-130,000 sales in the first year. The Air will probably do much better than that. The X300 is even more of a prestige project than the Air is. This is mainly due to their decision to go SSD-only (which is the biggest reason for the $2500+ starting price).

Excellent article, that one! Very well written (as it should be, of course).

BWhaler
Feb 15, 2008, 10:09 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A93 Safari/419.3)

still only runs windows.

Still ugly as sin.

Virgil-TB2
Feb 15, 2008, 10:16 AM
The Thinkpad is better in nearly every way. Hopefully the second gen MacBook Air will be similar to this. Of course, it will be funny to hear Jobs try to explain why they were "wrong" about omitting the optical drive.Well actually the ThinkPad is only *slightly* better in *most* ways. We are talking fractions of inches and ounces of weight. The ThinkPad is actually both heavier and thicker than the Air, despite what has been said above. It's also supposed to be quite a bit more expensive.

Additionally, ever since it went to Lenovo, the legendary ThinkPad quality has declined by a huge amount. Expect this thing to heat up like a Soviet rocket and have the build quality to match. ;)

Tosser
Feb 15, 2008, 10:17 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A93 Safari/419.3)

still only runs windows.

Well, when out in the field, and you need more than one USB port, or you need to have a functioning computer for more than 3-3,5 hours, or you need to connect to ethernet and so on, at least you can –*and all at the same time, no less.

Still ugly as sin.

Matter of taste. Black will always be the colour everything is measured against. Black will always be the classic colour. How many times have you heard "XYZ is the new black"? Well, I'll let in on a secret: It never is.

Further, to counter your taste, as that is the only thing it is: I am well and truly tired of anodised silver aluminium. It looks cheap. And with Apple's build quality it has even begun feeling cheap with things creaking, not fitting entirely, warping and what have you.
I'll prefer a Land Rover Defender over a Miyata any day I'm going "off road".

Tosser
Feb 15, 2008, 10:22 AM
Well actually the ThinkPad is only *slightly* better in *most* ways. We are talking fractions of inches and ounces of weight. The ThinkPad is actually both heavier and thicker than the Air, despite what has been said above.
Yes, your right. There are only those two parameters to deciding which one is the better computer. :rolleyes:

It's also supposed to be quite a bit more expensive.

You're cheating on the scales – at best. THe fact is, the Thinkpad is cheaper if compared like for like. If you take the SSD-version of the Airbook and compare it to the SSD-Thinkpad, the Thinkpad comes out a winner. The thinkpad is cheaper.

Additionally, ever since it went to Lenovo, the legendary ThinkPad quality has declined by a huge amount.
Well, from the "insight" you have just shown you have in the rest of the post, I will take that as an opinion with no bearing on reality or experience as well.

Expect this thing to heat up like a Soviet rocket and have the build quality to match. ;)

As I figured: No insight what so ever. Just spewing nonsense.

turkeydog
Feb 26, 2008, 12:29 AM
I guess everyone quoting the macbook air prices forgot to realize that the lenovo is packing a solid state drive. That brings the MBA price up to $3000, suddenly not a great bargain.... but it looks pretty, right... that's the most important part.

turkeydog
Feb 26, 2008, 12:31 AM
seems like tosser beat me to the punchline

mhaas
Feb 26, 2008, 03:23 AM
I guess everyone quoting the macbook air prices forgot to realize that the lenovo is packing a solid state drive. That brings the MBA price up to $3000, suddenly not a great bargain.... but it looks pretty, right... that's the most important part.

Its not the most important part, for most here the most important part here is the OS, yes the thinkpad is a great package, I would probably go for the Sony Vaio TZ21 - if, if it came with OS X!!! :rolleyes: :D

mhaas
Feb 26, 2008, 03:26 AM
....Expect this thing to heat up like a Soviet rocket and have the build quality to match. ;)

Wow, that was a nice compliment! Russian rockets are the best ones in the world, at least the most reliable, without them the ISS would have to be closed down...

ctt1wbw
Feb 26, 2008, 03:58 AM
Wow, that was a nice compliment! Russian rockets are the best ones in the world, at least the most reliable, without them the ISS would have to be closed down...

Sorry, the words Russian and reliable should never, ever be used in the same sentence. Take it from someone who studied the Russian military for 14 years. The only two things that the Russians have that are worth their weight in gold are the Akula II SSNs and the Su-37 Flankers. Everything else is garbage.

mhaas
Feb 26, 2008, 05:27 AM
You are funny :p

I am not saying that everything made in Russia is reliable. But the rockets that supply the spacestation are more reliable than the space shuttle, that is a statistical proven fact! If it were not for those rockets the ISS would not be supplied. How often was the space shuttle grounded for months and months, because of some leak or another in the last few years? In this time the old and trusty rockets went up as always ;)

BongoBanger
Feb 26, 2008, 05:49 AM
Sorry, the words Russian and reliable should never, ever be used in the same sentence. Take it from someone who studied the Russian military for 14 years. The only two things that the Russians have that are worth their weight in gold are the Akula II SSNs and the Su-37 Flankers. Everything else is garbage.

*cough*AK-47*cough*

lost eden
Feb 26, 2008, 07:40 AM
Sorry, the words Russian and reliable should never, ever be used in the same sentence. Take it from someone who studied the Russian military for 14 years. The only two things that the Russians have that are worth their weight in gold are the Akula II SSNs and the Su-37 Flankers. Everything else is garbage.
*cough*some of the best cameras EVER made*cough*

ctt1wbw
Feb 26, 2008, 07:48 AM
*cough*some of the best cameras EVER made*cough*

Leica is not Russian, is it? And Carl Zeiss lenses are not Russian. :)