Microsoft Piles -- er Stacks?

[MacRumors]

Longhorn was demoed on Monday (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031027/us_nm/tech_microsoft_longhorn_dc_3) at Microsoft's Professional Developers Conference.

One feature appears similar to a rumored feature from Apple called 'piles':
A demonstration of WinFS featured a method to "stack" documents by author in a window, with the heights of the stacks corresponding to the number of documents, as well as file views that showed snapshots of documents, rather than just file names

These rumors did not turn out to be true, but Apple does hold a patent (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/04/20030414200722.shtml) on their version of this UI element.

[rjstanford]

Bring on the enevitable Microsoft bashing for "stealing" a feature rumored to be (but not actually in) Panther... Still, this really does seem to be more of an iterative development than even an evolutionary one. As for the snapshots, that's been getting closer for quite some time now.

[evolu]

Look at him up there - he looks all evil.

[Mudbug]

a "beta" for the first service pack of the Windows Server 2003 system in the first half of 2004.

this makes me giggle deep down... :D

nothing like timing product release for when it's relevant... They might as well rename the thing Windows Server 2004, or 2005 for the sake of it (probably) not coming out until that year anyway.

[Einherjar]

Heh, so that's why it's now 2006! They're just biding their time for Apple to perfect X so it can be copied!

Welcome to 1987, people. :-)

/mini-zealot

[1macker1]

Umm, cool feature, but surely this wasnt the highlight of the demo.

[alset]

I'm actually getting pretty excited to see what happens with this over the next six months. We should make a checklist of OS X ripoffs and have a friendly betting pool on how many and which features will be copied (not for money, of course).

Dan

[jouster]

Heh, I have to say that whenever mac and MS fans argue about who thought of something first (like this piles thing or online music stores or whatever), I laugh to myself.

After all who cares? The only thing that matters is whose implementation is better.

If you can steal a (non patented) idea and do a better job, more power to you.

If it looked useful at the Longhorn demo, I should think we'll see it in 10.4 or 10.5

[Mudbug]

Originally posted by alset
I'm actually getting pretty excited to see what happens with this over the next six months. We should make a checklist of OS X ripoffs and have a friendly betting pool on how many and which features will be copied (not for money, of course).

Dan

http://www.flyonthemac.com/

gentlemen (and ladies, of course ;)), place your bets :D

[jxyama]

anyone here a serious developer (by trade, i assume, if you are frequently a mac site... :D ) for windows? i'm curious what the developers think of Longhorn. for that matter, i'd love to hear what developers for apple think of panther.

i'm quite ignorant and definitely don't trust microsoft but to me, all Longhorn seems to be is improved eye candies and not much more. (and an utterly useless - so it seems - large icon trey on the right, further taking up precious desktop real estate...) is it really better? will the file systems be improved?

they seem to be mentioning how the additional trey can hold stock information, clock, etc. is that really worthy of being mentioned in a pre-beta of an OS? is that part of the core function of an OS? doesn't M$ have more important things to worry about in designing their OS than where to put a large clock or real life stock quotes?

just asking...

(ok, not really. i've had it with Windows. they won't get much credit or my trust back until i see something good from them.)

[MorganX]

Originally posted by Mudbug
this makes me giggle deep down... :D

nothing like timing product release for when it's relevant... They might as well rename the thing Windows Server 2004, or 2005 for the sake of it (probably) not coming out until that year anyway.

Not sure I follow you. Windows Server 2003 has been out for some time. They are talking about the "service pack".

[1macker1]

A function of Expose has been a part of Windows since 98. So I think they just try and copy each other.
Originally posted by alset
I'm actually getting pretty excited to see what happens with this over the next six months. We should make a checklist of OS X ripoffs and have a friendly betting pool on how many and which features will be copied (not for money, of course).

Dan

[Phil Of Mac]

Longhorn is a rewrite of Windows.

"In Longhorn, a new window management tool...Expose".

"Don't you mean Exposé?"

"No, EXPOSE. Without the accent."

[1macker1]

ummm, ok.
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac

Longhorn is a rewrite of Windows.

"In Longhorn, a new window management tool...Expose".

"Don't you mean Exposé?"

"No, EXPOSE. Without the accent."

[jxyama]

Originally posted by 1macker1
A function of Expose has been a part of Windows since 98. So I think they just try and copy each other.

ok, this is borderline troll here. i have been using windows since 3.1 and don't ever remember being able to go to a window that's, say, 5 layers below the one i'm currently working on using just one keyboard button and one click of the mouse.

minimizing all to the taskbar and pulling up the one you want is not the same. tiling all (which makes each window usually too small to be distinguishable) and selecting the one you want is not the same.

the "intent" might have been there, but the implementation is so poor that i don't think you can call it a copy. expose is by far the most elegant imprementation as far as i can see.

[1macker1]

Show desktop is in Windows 95, not 3.1. And as fas as me being a troll, I guess I am, a Truth Troll.
Originally posted by jxyama
ok, this is borderline troll here. i have been using windows since 3.1 and don't ever remember being able to go to a window that's, say, 5 layers below the one i'm currently working on using just one keyboard button and one click of the mouse.

minimizing all to the taskbar and pulling up the one you want is not the same. tiling all (which makes each window usually too small to be distinguishable) and selecting the one you want is not the same.

the "intent" might have been there, but the implementation is so poor that i don't think you can call it a copy. expose is by far the most elegant imprementation as far as i can see.

[Shrike_Priest]

The thing is. This isn't like other stuff MS has "stolen". This is something that Apple actually holds a patent on.

it sounds VERY similar to piles. And I'd say MS are in trouble if it's true. Or then again, maybe not. If Apple sues MS can just say "No more Office for you!".

[SiliconAddict]

You want your piles? I got your piles right here:

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20031027/capt.la10210271848.microsoft_longhorn_la102.jpg

I loath this man with a passion. The smug little sanctimonious POS.http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/twak.gif

[jxyama]

show desktop? huh?

care to refresh my memory please? and how does that help me easily get to window toward the bottom in a multiple window layered mess? (and knowing exactly which window you'd be bringing up to the top)

edit: i said i've been using windows since 3.1. i didn't say this mysterious expose-equivalent feature you are talking about didn't exist in 3.1

edit2: your show desktop method doesn't work because windows equate an application with a window. (usually) if you had 5 word documents open, they will be 5 inner windows within one window for application for word. when you show desktop with that, you will see one task bar at the bottom with "word" and not 5 bars for 5 documents...

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by jxyama
ok, this is borderline troll here. i have been using windows since 3.1 and don't ever remember being able to go to a window that's, say, 5 layers below the one i'm currently working on using just one keyboard button and one click of the mouse.

Have you tried <ALT><TAB> - just make the icons into thumbnails and you've got something functionally similar to Expose'

[bennetsaysargh]

ok, i have a hypothesis.
MIP (minimize in place) was a feature in the early dev builds of jag, right? it was used to test out the badges in the docks. panther was rumored piles. piles from the description, can be expanded into expose`. i think piles might have been a way to test how expose could work on a smaller scale before it was on a larger scale like it is today in panther.

[P-Worm]

I haven't heard of this show desktop thing being just like Exposé either. I must be ignorant.

P-Worm

[1macker1]

i didnt say all the functions was there, but the 'clear desktop' has been a part of windows.
Originally posted by 1macker1
A function of Expose has been a part of Windows since 98. So I think they just try and copy each other.

[jxyama]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Have you tried <ALT><TAB> - just make the icons into thumbnails and you've got something functionally similar to Expose'

ok, this, i didn't know. and this is more similar to expose, i agree and i admit. (why don't they advertize this more? weird...)

still suffers from window's fundamental problem of (usually) equating one window for one app, though. (sorry, had to get the last word in there even in an apologetic post. :D )

[Phil Of Mac]

The clear desktop is perhaps the most minor part of Exposé.

[idea_hamster]

Originally posted by Shrike_Priest
If Apple sues MS can just say "No more Office for you!".
That would be a disturbing (non-)development, but I'm not sure that it would have the devastating impact today that it would have had in, say, 1998. There are lots of non-MS standards that have already been adopted (e.g., a number of non-Word word processors save by default to .rtf format which is readable by Word).

Also, recall that Adobe didn't stop developing Premier for Mac until Apple released Final Cut Express -- a direct competitor. And even MS didn't stop developing IE for Mac (and Windows too, as I understand it) until Apple released Safari.

It is a threat, but it's more likely to come about because Apple does something like buying Mariner Write and Calc or Nisus Express and puts out its own office apps.

[ryan]

Originally posted by 1macker1
Show desktop is in Windows 95, not 3.1. And as fas as me being a troll, I guess I am, a Truth Troll. Um, no offense, but it doesn't sound like you know what Expose is. 'Show Desktop' simply minimizes all the open applications/windows onto the task bar. Expose allows you to see either all the windows for a given application or all the windows for all the applications at the same time. The two technologies aren't really even close to be similar.

[Rower_CPU]

Apple's command+tab app switcher is more analogous to Windows alt+tab app switcher. Show desktop in Windows is similar to one part of Exposé, but saying Apple copied it is just...well, not intelligent.

[Shrike_Priest]

show desktop has been a part of Mac OS for ages too, by that logic (ie. hide all). and cmd+alt+clicking on the desktop in OSX.

And the thing about exposé's hide-all-ish thing is that you don't have to bring back the windows manually. You can press F11 or whatever it is, grab a document on the desktop, release F11 and drag it into an open app. something you can't in "show desktop".

[greenstork]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Have you tried <ALT><TAB> - just make the icons into thumbnails and you've got something functionally similar to Expose'

OK Windows apologists, expose is completely unique and MS may have similar features but nothing like Expose. The hot corners, hotkeys, is completely unique plus the GUI far exceeds anything MS has come up with.

That said, people on the forum need to get a grip. Just because MS is coming up with a stacks/piles doesn't mean they are copying Apple. Until Apple has an OS with this feature, everyone needs to step back and take a deep breath. Nobody has copied anything yet.

Let's all remember too that fast user switching was blatantly copied from Windows. It has been around for a while on the Windows platform and frankly it's about time Apple got around to integrating it into their OS. Good features get copied, it's a fact of software development. Most of the time Apple comes up with them first but not in the case of fast user switching or the unreleased piles.

Apple now has to come up with new features because MS has copied their current features. I'm not sure how anyone can view this as a negative. Competition spurs innovation and Apple is one of the best innovators out there.

[Freg3000]

Originally posted by greenstork
I'm not sure how anyone can view this as a negative.

Maybe because the title is blatantly biased. I know MacRumors is Mac site, but come'on, a little more objectivity.

I love innovation, whether it comes from Apple or Microsoft.

[Steradian]

Originally posted by idea_hamster
until Apple released... and puts out its own office apps.
Like AppleWorks?

[P-Worm]

Originally posted by Freg3000
Maybe because the title is blatantly biased. I know MacRumors is Mac site, but come'on, a little more objectivity.

I love innovation, whether it comes from Apple or Microsoft.

Did I just hear "Microsoft" and "innovation" in the same sentence? :eek:

P-Worm

[punter]

Originally posted by Shrike_Priest
show desktop has been a part of Mac OS for ages too, by that logic (ie. hide all). and cmd+alt+clicking on the desktop in OSX.

Damn! You tell me this now!?!? I'm just about to get panther and never need this again. Why didn't you tell me earlier!

[greenstork]

Originally posted by Steradian
Like AppleWorks?

All you have to do is look at their marketing efforts of the past 3 years to realize that Apple is trying to court "switchers." As much as I'd like Appleworks to be a viable alternative, Apple will never accomplish a switcher campaign or grow market share without MS Office, plain and simple.

[tychay]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Apple's command+tab app switcher is more analogous to Windows alt+tab app switcher. Show desktop in Windows is similar to one part of Exposé, but saying Apple copied it is just...well, not intelligent.

This needs some more description for the Windows trolls.

Command+tab switching is not part of Expose as evidenced by the fact that it has been around on Mac OS X since 10.1? and you can't control it from the Expose preference pane. What has changed in Panther is the fact that it pops open a window of apps to switch through which is similar to Windows (before it would switch in the Dock but this was unpopular). I'll note that the command+tab application switcher on the Mac looks much nicer (takes up full size, icons dynamically sized, translucent layer, etc.). This is a feature that has been copied from Proteron LiteSwitchX more than from Microsoft Windows. Proteron made LiteSwitch from Mac OS 8 as a freeware part of their GoMac which emulated the Windows Start Bar on Mac OS. I should mention that if there was any intellectual property here that was lifted (patents, copyrights and the like) from Microsoft they had the opportunity to sue Proteron as well as FVWM and a whole slew of other Unix window managers a long time ago.

Either Microsoft was being nice and decided that it would be good for their IP to go into the public domain or there is simply no IP in the user interface of Windows 95 that can stand any sort of legal test. Which reason is the real one is open for debate, but from recent quotes from their CEO regarding open source probably exclude the former.

Looks to me that if anybody has cause to bitch at Apple it is Proteron.

Now the big difference between LiteSwitchX and Panther's Command+Tab vs. Microsofts is that the latter switches between windows and the former switches between apps. This is because Windows users expand all windows to take the entire screen and then command-tab between them while Mac users use drag and drop and have a global menubar so don't want fully expanded windows. In other words different application models means different behavior is optimal. This can be annoying when switching because you have to learn to "command-tab" to the application and then "command-`" to the window... something which I see very few Mac users suggesting to recent switchers (a pity).

Clearly this in no way resembles Expose. In fact one of the features is not only impossible but impractical in the Windows world (exposing all windows in a given application). I don't think the windows thumbs are live updated, in fact for the most part they represent proxies of the actual window probably coped from a virtual window manager in Unix). They were just icons until Windows XP.

Getting back on topic. Clearly if Apple owns the patent on Piles than the description of this minor addition to Longhorn sounds like an obvious violation. Microsoft either licensed Piles from Apple or feels they can weather or pay off the lawsuit. Don't count out the former! Piles is old stuff and I seem to remember there was some IP exchange as part of the IE on Mac for Office on Mac and a few million bucks red herring thing from way back. For all we know, Microsoft can cherry pick Piles from the Apple... in fact, a lot of ex-Apple employees now work for Microsoft so it could have been one of them or maybe Microsoftie was reading MacRumors or somesuch and got the idea from there. *shrug* The whole feature must not be that impressive if Apple hasn't introduced it in 3 iterations of Mac OS X.

As for the Expose the desktop. Who is stealing from whom? I can remember option-clicking on the desktop in my Mac way back before Windows 95 and I'm not too sure when command-option-clicking (which hides all open apps) came into existence. I can remember back in the days window shade came out you could command-option or option-click on the shade button to do the Mac equivalent of Show Desktop. There has been an identical Windows-esque Show Desktop freeware for Mac OS X called (surprise!) "Show Desktop" for a while now. The reason nobody knows about it is because Mac users don't want it... they don't operate on windows the the same way Windows users do (see above).

All of this, as mentioned by Rower has nothing to do with Expose. With Expose, you can fly the windows away from the desktop, operate in finder, grab the icon you need, and fly the windows back in to drag it to the appropriate place. See? You leverage drag-and-drop. If the Windows world actually used that feature, they'd understand what Expose is so important to Mac users.

All Expose is trying to offer the features of command-tab switching or virtual desktops (around long before Microsoft even had a "Windows") without the cumbersome burden it places on Mac users workflow-- I mean not losing drag and drop, not losing live update, not requireing a rewrite of the windows attached to apps model, not creating a dicontinuous transition from a beginner to power user without a reams of documentation or classes and certifications, etc.).

Being "totally cool" also coincides with being Mac. If that wasn't the case, there wouldn't be a genie effect turned on by default when minimizing to the Dock.

And Expose is "totally cool". As one hard-core unix developer called to another after looking at my Powerbook over my shoulder, "Come here you gotta see Apple's answer to Virtual Desktops--this alone is a reason to buy a Mac!"

Take care,

terry

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by tychay
This needs some more description for the Windows trolls.

Command+tab switching is not part of Expose as evidenced by the fact that it has been around on Mac OS X since 10.1?

System 7.5, IIRC.

[daijones]

I'd like to see more on this, it comes across as not just another copy, but another poor copy. Stack documents by author? I've got thousands of docs on my machine, all authored by me. The author isn't my core concern (indeed, I don't include author data in my files), the task is. Apple's piles feature is based on the notion that a mix of different file types (and yes, different authors) may contribute to a particular short-term task, and piles gives an easy way of creating temporary task based organisations. I want piles very much, windows' stacks leave me cold from what I've heard so far.

[xtekdiver]

Originally posted by ryan
Um, no offense, but it doesn't sound like you know what Expose is. 'Show Desktop' simply minimizes all the open applications/windows onto the task bar. Expose allows you to see either all the windows for a given application or all the windows for all the applications at the same time. The two technologies aren't really even close to be similar.

A bit off topic, but speaking of this issue, I am somewhat new to OS X and havn't figured out how to get to my desktop quickly when I have loads of stuff open. Any sugg? Expose is awsome and worth the price of the upgrade, but is there anyway to collaps all open apps?

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by xtekdiver
A bit off topic, but speaking of this issue, I am somewhat new to OS X and havn't figured out how to get to my desktop quickly when I have loads of stuff open. Any sugg? Expose is awsome and worth the price of the upgrade, but is there anyway to collaps all open apps?

Click on the desktop and select "Hide Others" from the Finder menu.

[stcanard]

Originally posted by 1macker1
i didnt say all the functions was there, but the 'clear desktop' has been a part of windows.

I just tried it. I selected "show desktop", then opened mozilla, then selected "show desktop". It minimized my mozilla, and now none of the windows are where I left them.

Show desktop is the equivalent of "minimize all". How does that compare to the expose feature, where I can find an icon then immediately return all the windows to their original position?

You've been saying this for a while. Have you tried expose? If you really think that it's related to the show desktop feature I really doubt it.

[iPC]

Originally posted by tychay
This needs some more description for the Windows trolls.

<snip>To save space...</snip>

Take care,

terry
A few things....

All Windows users don't have all apps open and maximized. This is why I am constantly complaining about the lack of screen res for most of Apple's products. I use, and need, more pixels. I can have 8+ windows open with a corner or edge accessable at any given time with 1280*1024 on my Win98 machine at work (we are talking Word/Excel/IE/Explorer/Outlook/Mozilla/putty etc). My iBook does not give me as much flexibility with it's 1024*768 screen. Of course, in 12" format, that is okay with me. Not in 14" however.

I have 10.2.8 on said iBook, and cmd-tab swaps open programs via the dock. If you have 2 windows open for the same screen (buddy list and chat window for example) and I swap back and forth it is to the most recently used open window from that app. As a recent switcher (2 months or so) I found that rather difficult to get used to. Win98 and most any GUI I used with linux does not operate this way.

As for exposé (heh - just figured out option-e), I think it is rather gimicky in it's visual implementation. My *nix zealot buddies would call it a "bloated" feature. Using unnecessarily high amounts of processor time and RAM. It may be nice, but I can't say until I use it. Probably like the genie effect you mentioned, looks cool, but gets turned off on this "slow" iBook 800 G3 because it's a resource intensive gimick.

Fast user switching - about darn time! The rotating cube thing is odd way to re-draw a screen, and I hope it can be turned off. A quick pulse (1/20th of a second gray flash) followed by re-draw to another user would suit me just fine. Along with a 2 second show of the user's id that has been switched to (no idea if that is there now - or something like it).

And please, remember, your computer is just a tool. It is not a lifestyle. It is not a rite of passage.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by iPC
And please, remember, your computer is just a tool. It is not a lifestyle. It is not a rite of passage.

It is a lifestyle, dammit. I spend the majority of my waking hours by or near my PowerBook. How I use it is a very important part of my life.

[Turismo86]

In reading the propagandized literature that is Microsoft Developer News magazine (http://msdn.microsoft.com/longhorn/default.aspx?pull=/msdnmag/issues/04/01/DevelopingAppsforLonghorn/default.aspx) I discovered a slip-up in Microsoft's general attitude towards current releases of Windows. After a laundry list of "new" features (new to PC users i guess) i found this, "In addition, Longhorn is the first operating system designed from the ground up with security and trustworthy computing at the core."
Hmmm, does that mean that Microsoft finally admits that their current software has no protection. Well I guess admitting you have a problem is the first step in creating a halfway decent operating system. Oh well PC users, enjoy another three years of security problems and untrustworthy computing. :D

[MorganX]

Originally posted by jxyama
ok, this, i didn't know. and this is more similar to expose, i agree and i admit. (why don't they advertize this more? weird...)

still suffers from window's fundamental problem of (usually) equating one window for one app, though. (sorry, had to get the last word in there even in an apologetic post. :D )

Some people, myself included think Multiple Document Interface is superior. I suppose it is a matter of taste and work style. Working with multiple applications on the Mac is a nightmare for me. I can drag and drop between two apps with no problem in Windows. Just right click and tile the two open apps and start working. Never was able to do that elegantly on MacOS'. Having a unified menu makes for a sloppy desktop and the "need" for Exposè. It's long overdue IMO. Kudos to Apple for doing it with style and for avoiding tile/cascade/minimize which allowed them to actually market something old and basic as something new and innovative.

Windows has been able to, with two clicks, tile or cascade all open Windows horizontally or vertically since the Taskbar debutted. Not sure when show desktop showed up. Show desktop and minimize all are toggle switches. The last tile or cascade can be undone even after opening additional apps/folders.

Functionally, Exposè is playing catch-up to Windows.

Microsoft doesn't market it because it's "basic" window management.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by stcanard
I just tried it. I selected "show desktop", then opened mozilla, then selected "show desktop". It minimized my mozilla, and now none of the windows are where I left them.

Show desktop is the equivalent of "minimize all". How does that compare to the expose feature, where I can find an icon then immediately return all the windows to their original position?

You've been saying this for a while. Have you tried expose? If you really think that it's related to the show desktop feature I really doubt it.

Just select "Show Desktop" again and all windows will show the the positions they were in. It's a toggle.

You can open an applicaition and the windows will still return.

[Shrike_Priest]

" A bit off topic, but speaking of this issue, I am somewhat new to OS X and havn't figured out how to get to my desktop quickly when I have loads of stuff open. Any sugg? Expose is awsome and worth the price of the upgrade, but is there anyway to collaps all open apps?"

Like I said, hold cmd+alt and click on the desktop.

or any other app for that matter, and all windows not belonging to that particular app will be hidden.

[bennetsaysargh]

Originally posted by iPC
And please, remember, your computer is just a tool. It is not a lifestyle. It is not a rite of passage.

that's where you're wrong. we're a community. we're all here (most of us) because we use macs. it makes us unique. we stick together. there are a lot of people who show up to openings constantly. people still love their one button mice!

[MorganX]

Originally posted by Shrike_Priest
The thing is. This isn't like other stuff MS has "stolen". This is something that Apple actually holds a patent on.

it sounds VERY similar to piles. And I'd say MS are in trouble if it's true. Or then again, maybe not. If Apple sues MS can just say "No more Office for you!".

1) OS/2 had similar technology first, though there was no visual indicator of the size of the Pile.

2) Stacks sounds like it is more than a container for documents.

3) There's no such thing as Piles in reality to my knowledge, only a patent of a similar idea of technology IBM actually implemented in OS/2.

Could having knowledge of stacks be a reason Apple was throwing around a patent with no implementation? There should be a law against patent-squatting.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by Turismo86
In reading the propagandized literature that is Microsoft Developer News magazine (http://msdn.microsoft.com/longhorn/default.aspx?pull=/msdnmag/issues/04/01/DevelopingAppsforLonghorn/default.aspx) I discovered a slip-up in Microsoft's general attitude towards current releases of Windows. After a laundry list of "new" features (new to PC users i guess) i found this, "In addition, Longhorn is the first operating system designed from the ground up with security and trustworthy computing at the core."
Hmmm, does that mean that Microsoft finally admits that their current software has no protection. Well I guess admitting you have a problem is the first step in creating a halfway decent operating system. Oh well PC users, enjoy another three years of security problems and untrustworthy computing. :D

What it probably means, and what is probably the only reason we'd have to wait until 2006 for the Longhorn "client" is there's a good change Longhorn will work hand-in-glove with Intel security and encryption built-into it's upcoming chipsets.

[jxyama]

Originally posted by iPC
And please, remember, your computer is just a tool. It is not a lifestyle.

i beg to differ. to me, PC is a tool. i use it at work to get some work done. Mac is a lifestyle to me. it has apps and features that have changed my hobbies and the way i spend my "playing" hours. that's why i like Macs - it has vastly expanded and deepened my world of hobbies.

it might be a tool to you but it isn't so for me.

[jxyama]

Originally posted by MorganX
Some people, myself included think Multiple Document Interface is superior. I suppose it is a matter of taste and work style. Working with multiple applications on the Mac is a nightmare for me. I can drag and drop between two apps with no problem in Windows. Just right click and tile the two open apps and start working. Never was able to do that elegantly on MacOS'. Having a unified menu makes for a sloppy desktop and the "need" for Expos. It's long overdue IMO. Kudos to Apple for doing it with style and for avoiding tile/cascade/minimize which allowed them to actually market something old and basic as something new and innovative.

Windows has been able to, with two clicks, tile or cascade all open Windows horizontally or vertically since the Taskbar debutted. Not sure when show desktop showed up. Show desktop and minimize all are toggle switches. The last tile or cascade can be undone even after opening additional apps/folders.

Functionally, Expos is playing catch-up to Windows.

Microsoft doesn't market it because it's "basic" window management.

again, i beg to differ. you can replace all of your Windows specific words with Mac equivalent ones and you have my opinion. i find Windows MDI to be utterly unusable. i started using Macs at the beginning of the year and noticed the difference right away. i personally find Mac to be far more usable.

M$ implementation of MDI has been inconsistent over the years, esp. in Office.

i'll comment on one of your points. i don't understand how having "unified menu" makes for a sloppy desktop. i assume you are talking about the top of the desktop being reserved for menu items? the fact it's there means two things:

1) you only see menu items that is relevant for the application you are currently using. (do you need to access menu function of programs you are NOT using at the expense of screen real estate that most people covet?)

2) you know exactly where the menu items will show up regardless of whether the application window is minimized, maximized, tiled or otherwise.

but that's just my opinion.

bruce tognazzini, a noted expert in UI, doesn't like MDI.

asktog.com (http://www.asktog.com/readerMail/2000-07ReaderMail.html#Anchor2)

also, here is one example of a website listing some of the reasons MDI is not a very usable design.

pixelcentric interface hall of shame (http://pixelcentric.net/x-shame/docs.html)

while these will not contradict your experience in successfully working under MDI, they certainly don't make me a believer in it.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by jxyama
bruce tognazzini, a noted expert in UI, doesn't like MDI.


Well, I don't know him. Not going to read him. If the doesn't like MDI, I would never accept him as a UI expert.

It's one man's opinion. Personal preference and the way and type of work you do. In general "I" give the nod to MDI. But I can see how many would prefer the unified approach, especially single-tasking/focus activity.

Once you start multitasking and get windows and pallettes all over I prefer MDI; click between a floating pallete and hit the desktop by accident. Aaargh. I can't hang. Exposè will definitely be a big boost to working on a Mac and a big help winning over switchers.

FWIW, the only "flawless" UI, is iTunes. Well, there is one UI flaw. The browse icon is the ugliest thing ever. I wonder, did Apple add the iTunes UI or was it in place when they bought it? ;)

[jxyama]

without making it personal, i'll say one thing. if you are willing to dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with you as a "non expert" and not worth a read, then it's clearly not possible to have an intelligent discussion.

i happen to have noticed Mac's lack of MDI and followed up by reading and researching for reasons why i personally found non-MDI to be more usable.

while i respect your opinion, i do not respect or appreciate your rather crude dismissal when i'm trying to present my point of view intelligently with some information.

this is far off topic and i have no motive to convert you to my point of view. so on that note, i'm leaving this thread. good bye.

[Docrjm]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
You want your piles? I got your piles right here:

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20031027/capt.la10210271848.microsoft_longhorn_la102.jpg

I loath this man with a passion. The smug little sanctimonious POS.http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/twak.gif
If he has piles I know an excellent Proctologist!:D

[crees!]

Originally posted by 1macker1
i didnt say all the functions was there, but the 'clear desktop' has been a part of windows.

Okay, I'm a fresh switcher and I know exactly what he's talking about. All this Show Desktop button does is minimize every single window that's currently open. That's it, it doesn't do anything else. The fact that it does a similar task as one of Expose's 3 functions doesn't mean diddly squat.

I can see were you're getting at, but you're not getting too far with this pitch. If you haven't seen Expose in action personally for your self I suggest you go to your nearest Apple Store or to a friend that might have a Mac and see it for yourself. It is a mighty impressive tool and definitely has a WOW factor to it.

[VIREBEL661]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Have you tried <ALT><TAB> - just make the icons into thumbnails and you've got something functionally similar to Expose'

This works in 10.2 Jaguar also... Don't know if it works in earlier versions... Does the same thing as windoze but switches in the dock..

[VIREBEL661]

Originally posted by jxyama
i beg to differ. to me, PC is a tool. i use it at work to get some work done. Mac is a lifestyle to me. it has apps and features that have changed my hobbies and the way i spend my "playing" hours. that's why i like Macs - it has vastly expanded and deepened my world of hobbies.

it might be a tool to you but it isn't so for me.
I totally agree with you! Somebody is on your side...

[greenstork]

Originally posted by MorganX

Functionally, Exposè is playing catch-up to Windows.

Microsoft doesn't market it because it's "basic" window management.

I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that you've never actually used Expose. on paper, I thought the same thing about it as you. Sounds cool, functional but what is the big deal. When you use it, you'll understand why it is so much better than anything in windows.

This is the same Mac vs Windows argument of the ages. Apple manges to do the subtle things that much simpler and better, and with such grace. Windows, despite its functionality, will never accomplish the same task with the same simplicity and grace.

[greenstork]

To further add to the discussion about Expose, there are things it does that Windows can't do. Imagine you have a bunch of files on the desktop and an open finder window you want to use.

If you have windows cluttering the desktop, you can press F11, clear the desktop, grab the file you want off the desktop, press F9 and select from all of the open finder windows to drop the file. When you're organizing files, this type of thing is invaluable. Apple has basically eliminated the need to ever move a window to accommodate a drag and drop operation.

Think about this for a second because it's a freaking huge deal.

edit: My guess is that most people downplaying the usefulness of expose have either never used it or have yet to truly appreciate how useful it is.

[sinclairZX81]

Originally posted by daijones
I'd like to see more on this, it comes across as not just another copy, but another poor copy. Stack documents by author? I've got thousands of docs on my machine, all authored by me. The author isn't my core concern (indeed, I don't include author data in my files), the task is.

then you would probably want to stack by 'task' or 'project', no? ;)

[Fukui]

What it probably means, and what is probably the only reason we'd have to wait until 2006 for the Longhorn "client" is there's a good change Longhorn will work hand-in-glove with Intel security and encryption built-into it's upcoming chipsets.
I can't hardly wait...:rolleyes:
Why don't we all just slap barcodes to our foreheads and be done with it!

[1macker1]

The point is not that it's a minor part of expose, the fact is that it was copied. And speaking of copying, the fast user switching is also a copy. Expose is a neat trick that will fade quickly. I use everything from linux red hat, to windows 95,98,2000, and XP, to Mac OS X.

And for those who say Mac OS X is light years ahead of the Window OS, it is exactly what one would expect from a fanatic. Only the truly intelligent people can see that the OS you choose depends on your needs.

[Rower_CPU]

Is it a "copy" because the are similar? Seeing as how they achieve the effect in completely different ways, I still don't see it...especially when Apple has had similar functionality all through OS X via different means, as others have already pointed out.

Again, if you've used Exposé you know how powerful this feature is as a UI feature. Have you used it?

As for your other remark, no, it's what you'd expect of fans of an OS to say about their system. I'd say there are a lot of people here who have assessed their needs and seen that OS X is what makes the best sense for them. Quit trolling.

[ipiloot]

From here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/longhorn/productinfo/tour/

following things:

-Open the Start menu and click Music. The music you added to the WinFX default store appears in the music collection.

-Click the column heading Artist and select Stack by artist. The items appear in stacks according to their artist metadata. Double-click a stack to see music by a specific artist.

[greenstork]

Originally posted by 1macker1
The point is not that it's a minor part of expose, the fact is that it was copied. And speaking of copying, the fast user switching is also a copy. Expose is a neat trick that will fade quickly. I use everything from linux red hat, to windows 95,98,2000, and XP, to Mac OS X.

And for those who say Mac OS X is light years ahead of the Window OS, it is exactly what one would expect from a fanatic. Only the truly intelligent people can see that the OS you choose depends on your needs.

There are intelligent responses, and there are trolls. Go back to /. troll.

How can I justify this comment. Ask yourself one question. If you didn't think Mac OS X is light years ahead of Windows, why are you posting to a rumor site that focuses on the latest Apple innovations?

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by MorganX
FWIW, the only "flawless" UI, is iTunes. Well, there is one UI flaw. The browse icon is the ugliest thing ever. I wonder, did Apple add the iTunes UI or was it in place when they bought it? ;)

They added it.

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by greenstork
Apple now has to come up with new features because MS has copied their current features. I'm not sure how anyone can view this as a negative. Competition spurs innovation and Apple is one of the best innovators out there.

I think people see it as a negative because Apple is an innovator and Microsoft poaches.

Yes, there are ideas that Apple has appropriated from elsewhere but I find this more excusable in that Apple tends to brings a lot to the party and generally lets everyone take home a souvenir...

For all the wind MS blows about innovation, their primary mode of operation is consolidation.

It's a real burden on a smaller company when all of their R&D efforts feed their competitor. Despite being a closed system, Apple builds a very open environment. MS does just the opposite-- why is it that no one (not even Entourage) can interface with Exchange, for example? No, not the web interface, but native MAPI...

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by tychay
This needs some more description for the Windows trolls.

...

Take care,

terry

Excellent discussion. A lot of this does come down to the difference in how the GUI is used on the two platforms.

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by iPC
A few things....

All Windows users don't have all apps open and maximized. This is why I am constantly complaining about the lack of screen res for most of Apple's products.
...

I have 10.2.8 on said iBook, and cmd-tab swaps open programs via the dock.
...

As for exposé (heh - just figured out option-e), I think it is rather gimicky in it's visual implementation. My *nix zealot buddies would call it a "bloated" feature. Using unnecessarily high amounts of processor time and RAM. It may be nice, but I can't say until I use it. Probably like the genie effect you mentioned, looks cool, but gets turned off on this "slow" iBook 800 G3 because it's a resource intensive gimick.

Fast user switching - about darn time! The rotating cube thing is odd way to re-draw a screen, and I hope it can be turned off. A quick pulse (1/20th of a second gray flash) followed by re-draw to another user would suit me just fine. Along with a 2 second show of the user's id that has been switched to (no idea if that is there now - or something like it).

And please, remember, your computer is just a tool. It is not a lifestyle. It is not a rite of passage.

I don't think anyone will argue with you about needing more pixels... That's one of the reasons I hate menu-per-window in Windows, and one of the reason I hate all the metal trim on the new Finder...

I personally won't disagree about cmd-tab being broken in past releases. This is the first workable cmd-tab for Mac that I've seen.

I do start to disagree about the "bloat" in Exposé and FUS though.

One of the principles of Apple design is to make sure the user follows you through what's happening. You'll notice things never just "snap" into place-- they always slide. When a user lets go of something and it suddenly "snaps" to a different location there's a momentary panic as the user tries to figure out what happened. It breaks the flow.

If you ever used Interface Builder, I noticed that if you just click an item on a palette that is meant to be dragged instead, it jiggles. Cute, right? But it also tells you "I move. Don't click me, move me".

Show Desktop might clear the desktop, but when you click it, there's the "where did everything go" lag while you reorient to your new environment. Did it close all my apps, or just minimize them? If they're minimized, which icon represents the app I'm interested in?

Exposé makes sure the user is following what is going on. You know everything slid off screen when you look at the desktop. You know where your windows are in the stackup when they slide out to tile and then back again. They tile according to their relative sizes, so you don't lose that visual clue as you would with a 'simple' tiling-- everything is as you remember it, albeit a bit smaller.

Same holds for FUS. While that cube is rotating, you're orienting yourself to the new desktop. You know the desktop that is leaving hasn't been closed-- it's being rotated out. You are remembering where things were left on the new one.

The quick strobe and change is faster as far as getting the desktop drawn, but not faster for the user who has just gotten flashed in the face and now has a new view to adjust to and possibly a bunch of questions about what just happened.

Don't confuse speed with productivity-- just because something happens more quickly doesn't mean you can get more done in less time. Often the opposite is true. The brain is well adapted to the physical world where things happen in continuum, not instantaneously.

As far as the use of resources, one of the beauties of Quartz extreme is that most of this makes use of the largely unused graphics processor-- so it is hardly wasting useful resources.

I'm running without QE (iMac 400) and I find it perfectly workable- a momentary blip to 20% cpu usage for Exposé and FUS unfortunately doesn't bother with the cube.

People often refer to Apple's UI style as "eye candy", but there is very little that they do that without purpose. It's probably better phrased "instinct candy", because it's a group of niceties that appeal to your instincts more than to your eyes.

[Phil Of Mac]

One intuitive feature I love is when you type an incorrect password into the Mac OS, the dialog box will actually shake from side to side like it's shaking its head. That's cute! But it's also functional.

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by MorganX
Some people, myself included think Multiple Document Interface is superior. I suppose it is a matter of taste and work style. Working with multiple applications on the Mac is a nightmare for me. I can drag and drop between two apps with no problem in Windows. Just right click and tile the two open apps and start working. Never was able to do that elegantly on MacOS'. Having a unified menu makes for a sloppy desktop and the "need" for Exposè. It's long overdue IMO. Kudos to Apple for doing it with style and for avoiding tile/cascade/minimize which allowed them to actually market something old and basic as something new and innovative.

Windows has been able to, with two clicks, tile or cascade all open Windows horizontally or vertically since the Taskbar debutted. Not sure when show desktop showed up. Show desktop and minimize all are toggle switches. The last tile or cascade can be undone even after opening additional apps/folders.

Functionally, Exposè is playing catch-up to Windows.

Microsoft doesn't market it because it's "basic" window management.

You're right that it's a matter of opinion, and of work style. Here's my opinion based on my work style:

MDI was one of my major pet peeves when I was using Windows... It turns a multi-tasking OS into a single task environment. I've got two applications I'm working with together, but I can only see one at a time because each one has this opaque frame that blocks out the entire desktop, or at the very least wraps borders around borders and eats up my real estate.

Makes me think of when I buy nothing but a bag of chips and the clerk wants to put it in a bag for me to carry out...

Then I've got icons in the frame, and icons on the taskbar, and menus and toolbars attached to everything...

Now that transparency is functional in hardware, a translucent frame might be useable, but I'm glad that MS just ditched the whole MDI scheme with the more recent versions of office instead.

When I tile Windows apps, I find myself with a screen containing nothing but menus and borders with very little workable space.

Show Desktop might be a toggle, but I need to click to toggle which can be a bit of a problem when the mouse is dragging something from one place to the other.

I don't have much truck with cutting and pasting files. Files are too critical to trust to an invisible clipboard. I want to have them in my sight at all times.

I agree that MS doesn't market their scheme because it's "basic" window management... Very basic to the point of crude, in my opinion. If they put a little effort into it they may have been able to market it as "functional" window management.

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
One intuitive feature I love is when you type an incorrect password into the Mac OS, the dialog box will actually shake from side to side like it's shaking its head. That's cute! But it's also functional.

Yeah, the etch-a-sketch response... Let's me know that it heard me fine, and just doesn't like my response.

My Sun station just clears the fields and waits for new input like it's hard of hearing... :rolleyes:

[hokka]

On another forum (newstoday) I found people were trading and sharing some kind of REAL skin for XP which similates OSX, from the Dock, to icons to tool bars - now, even Exposé! and Safari! And the people who have tried it said it's pretty smooth in action, and couldn't tell it's just a skin!!

The guys whom were sharing these info wouldn't share the link of the software but they'll send you via email - due to the reason that Apple will sue who ever wrote the codes!

What do you guys think? The shreen-grabs are too big to attach, so you'll have to see it from the link below...

http://www.tofslie.com/files/expose.jpg

http://www.tofslie.com/files/safari.jpg

Check it!!! before it disappears

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by 1macker1
The point is not that it's a minor part of expose, the fact is that it was copied. And speaking of copying, the fast user switching is also a copy. Expose is a neat trick that will fade quickly. I use everything from linux red hat, to windows 95,98,2000, and XP, to Mac OS X.

And for those who say Mac OS X is light years ahead of the Window OS, it is exactly what one would expect from a fanatic. Only the truly intelligent people can see that the OS you choose depends on your needs.

Actually I'd say that the folks saying Mac OS is light years ahead of Windows are saying it precisely because they chose an OS based on their needs...

I use those OS's plus Solaris, HPUX, VAX and Palm. Oh, and I've written a proprietary GUI for embedded devices... Does that make my opinion more valid? ;)

I know that wasn't cool, just couldn't resist... You called me a fanatic first though... :p

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by tychay
Getting back on topic. Clearly if Apple owns the patent on Piles than the description of this minor addition to Longhorn sounds like an obvious violation. Microsoft either licensed Piles from Apple or feels they can weather or pay off the lawsuit. Don't count out the former! Piles is old stuff and I seem to remember there was some IP exchange as part of the IE on Mac for Office on Mac and a few million bucks red herring thing from way back. For all we know, Microsoft can cherry pick Piles from the Apple...

Oh yeah, the topic... I think you're right on this one-- I can't remember when the patent was filed, but I think Apple settled with MS and they licensed all their current IP (current at the time) to the Beast.

I guess technically it wasn't copied, it was extorted.. ;)

[hokka]

http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?id=14694&category=main

haha, it's leaked already... and they've ripped off the Panther metallic look already!!!

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by hokka
http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?id=14694&category=main

haha, it's leaked already... and they've ripped off the Panther metallic look already!!!

My, what big buttons you have!

Where are you supposed to work? I think the reason Longhorn keeps slipping is because MS is waiting for 40" CRTs...

I love the "you have 60 days to activate Windows" tag at the bottom there... :)

[airbag]

Exellent, exellent post!

One look at the early previews of Longhorn, and it's clear that Microsoft STILL hasn't learned anything!:D

Sidebar??? What for? In all the screenshots I've seen, 80% of the "sidebar" is empty - just a huge waste of pixels!


_A_



Originally posted by Analog Kid
I don't think anyone will argue with you about needing more pixels... That's one of the reasons I hate menu-per-window in Windows, and one of the reason I hate all the metal trim on the new Finder...

I personally won't disagree about cmd-tab being broken in past releases. This is the first workable cmd-tab for Mac that I've seen.

I do start to disagree about the "bloat" in Exposé and FUS though.

One of the principles of Apple design is to make sure the user follows you through what's happening. You'll notice things never just "snap" into place-- they always slide. When a user lets go of something and it suddenly "snaps" to a different location there's a momentary panic as the user tries to figure out what happened. It breaks the flow.

If you ever used Interface Builder, I noticed that if you just click an item on a palette that is meant to be dragged instead, it jiggles. Cute, right? But it also tells you "I move. Don't click me, move me".

Show Desktop might clear the desktop, but when you click it, there's the "where did everything go" lag while you reorient to your new environment. Did it close all my apps, or just minimize them? If they're minimized, which icon represents the app I'm interested in?

Exposé makes sure the user is following what is going on. You know everything slid off screen when you look at the desktop. You know where your windows are in the stackup when they slide out to tile and then back again. They tile according to their relative sizes, so you don't lose that visual clue as you would with a 'simple' tiling-- everything is as you remember it, albeit a bit smaller.

Same holds for FUS. While that cube is rotating, you're orienting yourself to the new desktop. You know the desktop that is leaving hasn't been closed-- it's being rotated out. You are remembering where things were left on the new one.

The quick strobe and change is faster as far as getting the desktop drawn, but not faster for the user who has just gotten flashed in the face and now has a new view to adjust to and possibly a bunch of questions about what just happened.

Don't confuse speed with productivity-- just because something happens more quickly doesn't mean you can get more done in less time. Often the opposite is true. The brain is well adapted to the physical world where things happen in continuum, not instantaneously.

As far as the use of resources, one of the beauties of Quartz extreme is that most of this makes use of the largely unused graphics processor-- so it is hardly wasting useful resources.

I'm running without QE (iMac 400) and I find it perfectly workable- a momentary blip to 20% cpu usage for Exposé and FUS unfortunately doesn't bother with the cube.

People often refer to Apple's UI style as "eye candy", but there is very little that they do that without purpose. It's probably better phrased "instinct candy", because it's a group of niceties that appeal to your instincts more than to your eyes.

[backspinner]

Strange screenshots...
- have you ever seen a cow standing in a field of corn like the default desktop implies?
- they have two total different styles of clickable things in their ctr-alt-del screen: shutdown and cancel at the bottom and logoff and the others in the middle

[ottawawatts]

Originally posted by xtekdiver
A bit off topic, but speaking of this issue, I am somewhat new to OS X and havn't figured out how to get to my desktop quickly when I have loads of stuff open. Any sugg? Expose is awsome and worth the price of the upgrade, but is there anyway to collaps all open apps?

Hold down Apple + option keys then click on the finder icon in the dock. all apps are hidden.

this could be your tip of the day.

by the way... windows sucks *****

[Shadey]

Fast User Switching. Neat little tool that has been in Windows XP since it's release.

[1macker1]

No not really :)

What is this 'trolling' you all speak of.

Originally posted by Analog Kid

I use those OS's plus Solaris, HPUX, VAX and Palm. Oh, and I've written a proprietary GUI for embedded devices... Does that make my opinion more valid? ;)

I know that wasn't cool, just couldn't resist... You called me a fanatic first though... :p

[1macker1]

similarity is a synonym for copy.
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Is it a "copy" because the are similar? Seeing as how they achieve the effect in completely different ways, I still don't see it...especially when Apple has had similar functionality all through OS X via different means, as others have already pointed out.

Again, if you've used Exposé you know how powerful this feature is as a UI feature. Have you used it?

As for your other remark, no, it's what you'd expect of fans of an OS to say about their system. I'd say there are a lot of people here who have assessed their needs and seen that OS X is what makes the best sense for them. Quit trolling.

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by greenstork
There are intelligent responses, and there are trolls. Go back to /. troll.

How can I justify this comment. Ask yourself one question. If you didn't think Mac OS X is light years ahead of Windows, why are you posting to a rumor site that focuses on the latest Apple innovations? I can't help but contrast this to the post from jxyama just a few before:without making it personal, i'll say one thing. if you are willing to dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with you as a "non expert" and not worth a read, then it's clearly not possible to have an intelligent discussion.Yes, it really is a little too much to expect to have "intelligent" discussion about the good and bad parts of a system, isn't it? Here's a hint. Just because someone has something critical to say, that doesn't make them a troll.

-Richard

[ewoh24]

As far as this "piles" or "stacks" idea goes, I remember a third party app from about 10 years ago that was on my PowerBook 190 that created "stacks" from files that you dragged together. It was not an Apple or a Microsoft product. I wish I could remember the name of it. I'll investigate tonight.

[greenstork]

Originally posted by rjstanford
I can't help but contrast this to the post from jxyama just a few before:Yes, it really is a little too much to expect to have "intelligent" discussion about the good and bad parts of a system, isn't it? Here's a hint. Just because someone has something critical to say, that doesn't make them a troll.

-Richard

Have you read the guys posts, he's obviously trolling.

Just look at his two posts directly above the one I am quoting. He's writing inflammatory posts, contrary to popular opinion, on the forum to incite people. Someone needs to call this out every now and then.

I would suggest that if you going to introduce a contrarian opinion that you should have something intelligent to say to back it up. And if you read my posts from the beginning of this thread, you'd see that I am just as critical of Apple zealots as the next guy.

Someone is a troll when they haven't used the features in question but are quick to point out that it is a copy of Windows (edit: specifically expose), think about it.

[Fukui]

Originally posted by Shadey
Fast User Switching. Neat little tool that has been in Windows XP since it's release.
And has been in Unix since forever.
Keep trolling!
I wanna see what else you can come up with!

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by Fukui
And has been in Unix since forever.

Please explain how in the X Window System to suspend a desktop, log in as a new, different user with a new desktop, then switch back and forth with the original desktop.

And, BTW, "forever" in UNIX includes a time when the ASR-33 teletype was the most popular interface. Please explain "fast user switching" at 110 baud !

[Fukui]

Originally posted by 1macker1
similarity is a synonym for copy. Uh, no its not.
Similarity implies that something JUST SO HAPPENED to be...uh similar.

Copying implies a direct intention to make something EXACTLY the same.

If I say that, "Oh, these clouds are similar to the ones in my home town," you can't change that sentence to say, "Oh, these clouds are copied from my home town," it doesn't make any sense boooyyeeee!

They are not synonyms, if that were so, I could interchange those words at any place and the meaning will be the same, here its not. Therefore you are wrong.

And secondly, if apple copied MS, then don't you think they would have put a button on the menu-bar or something that you clicked, and all it did was hide all the windows? Oh, thats not what it does...silly me....:rolleyes:

Expose doesn't hide anything, it SHOWS all you windows, again, it doesn't hide your windows like on Windows, it EXPOSES them.

:eek:

[Shadey]

Originally posted by Fukui
And has been in Unix since forever.
Keep trolling!
I wanna see what else you can come up with!

Troll this, troll, that, who gives a f@ck?!

I was mearly pointing out that everyone copies, hardly any innovation. Don't put Apple up on a pedestal just because you use an i_________.

And last I looked, Unix was a text-based OS, not a GUI one.

[Fukui]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Please explain how in the X Window System to suspend a desktop, log in as a new, different user with a new desktop, then switch back and forth with the original desktop.

And, BTW, "forever" in UNIX includes a time when the ASR-33 teletype was the most popular interface. Please explain "fast user switching" at 110 baud !
I was waiting for you to show up.

1) I didn't say X Windows.
2) In Unix you can just fire up a shell and login as anyone you want, startup programs as any user, as long as you have authentication...it actually better in some ways because you can mix and match apps on the same desktop as other users.
3) Virtual Desktops are akin to user switching.
4) "Forever" was a exaggeration...I think you know better...but I guess not.

[Fukui]

Originally posted by Shadey
Troll this, troll, that, who gives a f@ck?!

I was mearly pointing out that everyone copies, hardly any innovation. Don't put Apple up on a pedestal just because you use an i_________.

And last I looked, Unix was a text-based OS, not a GUI one.
Hmm, Okay....
You could have just said, "Look, everyone borrows ideas and even copies from others, just look at XP it has had that since it was released." That is true. Steve Jobs even admitted it!!
Originally posted by Shadey
Troll this, troll, that, who gives a f@ck?!
And your calling me the troll.

[network23]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
One intuitive feature I love is when you type an incorrect password into the Mac OS, the dialog box will actually shake from side to side like it's shaking its head. That's cute! But it's also functional.

...and another example of the superior UI of the Mac OS. In Windows, if you type in an incorrect password, a dialog pops up that either has to be clicked on or Enter pressed to get rid of before I can try my password again. In Mac OS, a quick shake, and I'm right back at the input field, ready to start typing.

And to everyone who thinks they can gloat and prance about proclaiming "Windows had FUS first! Windows had FUS first!" -- please stop.

It really is embarrassing to see a behemoth like Microsoft with tens of thousands of employees and millions upon millions of dollars invested in "R&D" come up with one, ONE development that was worthy for Apple to borrow from. I just sit here and say "What? Is that all you got? Is that all you have to show from all your resources, yet your MDI is a pain to use, your UI methodologies are useless and your consistency is nonexistent."

Microsoft is still a "wait by the sidelines and copy whatever looks good that comes along" company. The fact that they came up with this one good idea is tragic, embarrassing and pitiful. You are not impressing anyone by pointing that fact out.

[jxyama]

he he... can't stay away...

fast user switching, the way it's impremented, is a copy of XP. not much question about that and i think jobs even talked in some interview alluding to the fact it's a good feature of XP that will be incorporated into panther. (i don't have a source, looked around a bit in google and hence, i could be completely wrong.)

the lack of fast user switching was particularly strange in X to begin with because it's UNIX at its core, which is natively simultaneous multi-user OS.

key distinction is the fact you can have a desktop personalized for each user. being able to run shell scripts for other people on the same desktop as in UNIX doesn't really count, i'd say...

i personally think it's done better in panther since it takes a little less steps and you can switch to the new user without going to the full login menu.

of course, that is to be expected because panther came out after XP. i imagine M$ will fine tune it for longhorn. i'm no authority, but i think you deserve to be called a mac zealot if you couldn't see that the fast user switching was pretty much taken from XP.

M$ does come up with pretty good stuff once in a while. fast user switching is one. scroll wheel mouse is another i can think of off the top of my head. i'm sure there are others.

i still think expose is a pretty darn good implementation of better windows management. i couldn't care less who invented first, but i sure am glad apple implemented to my satisfaction and making it a very useful function in panther.

[greenstork]

Originally posted by jxyama
he he... can't stay away...

fast user switching, the way it's impremented, is a copy of XP. not much question about that and i think jobs even talked in some interview alluding to the fact it's a good feature of XP that will be incorporated into panther. (i don't have a source, looked around a bit in google and hence, i could be completely wrong.)

the lack of fast user switching was particularly strange in X to begin with because it's UNIX at its core, which is natively simultaneous multi-user OS.

key distinction is the fact you can have a desktop personalized for each user. being able to run shell scripts for other people on the same desktop as in UNIX doesn't really count, i'd say...

i personally think it's done better in panther since it takes a little less steps and you can switch to the new user without going to the full login menu.

of course, that is to be expected because panther came out after XP. i imagine M$ will fine tune it for longhorn. i'm no authority, but i think you deserve to be called a mac zealot if you couldn't see that the fast user switching was pretty much taken from XP.

M$ does come up with pretty good stuff once in a while. fast user switching is one. scroll wheel mouse is another i can think of off the top of my head. i'm sure there are others.

i still think expose is a pretty darn good implementation of better windows management. i couldn't care less who invented first, but i sure am glad apple implemented to my satisfaction and making it a very useful function in panther.

Well said, although I still contend that there's nothing like expose on Windows at least nothing nearly as functional.

[Fukui]

Originally posted by jxyama
Fast user switching, the way it's impremented, is a copy of XP. not much question about that and i think jobs even talked in some interview alluding to the fact it's a good feature of XP that will be incorporated into panther. (i don't have a source, looked around a bit in google and hence, i could be completely wrong.)


He said it in the keynote.
Something like, "They beat us to it, so now we are adding it too..."

As to MS copying Piles, this may be a result of the "IP exchange" that was talked about between MS and Apple. Its no longer in use (new ideas aren't shared, willingly), but things that MS added before that time, and things that Apple added before that time were to be crossed licensed....AFAIK

[1macker1]

this is getting funny. use your theasaurus.
Originally posted by Fukui
Uh, no its not.
Similarity implies that something JUST SO HAPPENED to be...uh similar.

Copying implies a direct intention to make something EXACTLY the same.

If I say that, "Oh, these clouds are similar to the ones in my home town," you can't change that sentence to say, "Oh, these clouds are copied from my home town," it doesn't make any sense boooyyeeee!

They are not synonyms, if that were so, I could interchange those words at any place and the meaning will be the same, here its not. Therefore you are wrong.

And secondly, if apple copied MS, then don't you think they would have put a button on the menu-bar or something that you clicked, and all it did was hide all the windows? Oh, thats not what it does...silly me....:rolleyes:

Expose doesn't hide anything, it SHOWS all you windows, again, it doesn't hide your windows like on Windows, it EXPOSES them.

:eek:

[Fukui]

Originally posted by 1macker1
this is getting funny. use your theasaurus.
I did...;)

[iPC]

Originally posted by hokka
http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?id=14694&category=main

haha, it's leaked already... and they've ripped off the Panther metallic look already!!!
"metallic look" was not copied. older alpha's of Longhorn were blue instead of dark grey.... themes.... kind of like aqua with blue, or not. or winxp with blue, or silver.

<edit>
Entry: equivalent
Function: adjective
Definition: same
Synonyms: agnate, akin, alike, analogous, carbon, commensurate, comparable, convertible, copy, correlative, correspondent, corresponding, ditto, duplicate, equal, even, homologous, identical, indistinguishable, interchangeable, like, parallel, proportionate, reciprocal, same difference, similar, substitute, synonymous, tantamount
Antonyms: different, differing, dissimilar, diverse, incompatible, unequal, unlike
Concept: equivalence
Source: Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright © 2003 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.
</edit>

[crees!]

Originally posted by jxyama
i'm no authority, but i think you deserve to be called a mac zealot if you couldn't see that the fast user switching was pretty much taken from XP.

Steve Jobs said it himself at WWDC that MS beat Apple to this feature.

[jxyama]

for clearing the desktop feature common in both windows and panther/expose, i think the intent is a little different.

in windows, i think its intent was to minimize all the windows. not much more than that. i *think* the main goal was to clear up the windows - and as a consequence, the desktop shows up. it's a toggle, which shows that the window minimizatin was the goal.

for panther, i think it's subtly different. since when this function is invoked in expose, you see the windows slide off to the edges - and only while you press the F key. i'd say the intent is to clear the windows temporarily in order to access the desktop. it's not the windows that's the subject of the function - it's the access to desktop that's important, not the cleaning of windows..

very subtle and probably indistinguishable and i claim no lack of bias in my part. and as i said before, i don't really care who invented it, as long as it's elegantly and functionally done for my OS of choice. (that would be OS X, of course.)

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by 1macker1
this is getting funny. use your theasaurus.

Arguing semantics is a sure sign of not having a leg to stand on in an argument.

Many people have refuted your claim and you haven't been able to come up with a response. Drop it already.

[1macker1]

I can agree with that
Originally posted by jxyama
for clearing the desktop feature common in both windows and panther/expose, i think the intent is a little different.

in windows, i think its intent was to minimize all the windows. not much more than that. i *think* the main goal was to clear up the windows - and as a consequence, the desktop shows up. it's a toggle, which shows that the window minimizatin was the goal.

for panther, i think it's subtly different. since when this function is invoked in expose, you see the windows slide off to the edges - and only while you press the F key. i'd say the intent is to clear the windows temporarily in order to access the desktop. it's not the windows that's the subject of the function - it's the access to desktop that's important, not the cleaning of windows..

very subtle and probably indistinguishable and i claim no lack of bias in my part. and as i said before, i don't really care who invented it, as long as it's elegantly and functionally done for my OS of choice. (that would be OS X, of course.)

[1macker1]

I dont claim anything, i just stated the plain truth.
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Arguing semantics is a sure sign of not having a leg to stand on in an argument.

Many people have refuted your claim and you haven't been able to come up with a response. Drop it already.
I use the feature everyday so i know it's there.

[Rower_CPU]

Well, I guess we should all just shut up and go home then. :rolleyes:

What's "truth" to you isn't necessarily so for anyone else. People have showed over and over and over how the feature you said Apple "copied" is obviously different from its Windows counterpart. And yet you persist...

This whole argument is pointless. In the current desktop metaphor of computing, there are a finite number of UI interactions. Do you hear Mac users point out that Windows stole the Mac OS' concepts of menus, windows, icons, etc. (which were derived from Xerox's work at the PARC)? No.

Give it a rest, 1adonis1.

[stcanard]

Originally posted by jxyama
very subtle and probably indistinguishable and i claim no lack of bias in my part. and as i said before, i don't really care who invented it, as long as it's elegantly and functionally done for my OS of choice. (that would be OS X, of course.)

Actually, the difference in the functions between windows show desktop, and expose's expose dektop is very distinguishable with my work pattern.

I currently have 16 windows open on my desktop, 10 of them terminal windows. (it's a low count, if I was coding instead of just debugging I could double that with editor windows too). Terminal windows don't get named well, so I identify them postionally (all windows on the top, right are tailing log files, all windows on the bottom, left are for running commands, windows in the middle of the screen are my working "temporary" windows, etc)

Windows that are on the desktop are actively in use. Windows that are minimized are for tasks that I'm not currently working on (think of it as a desktop version of virual memory)

I'm in Windows now. If I want to look for something that's only on my desktop, I have to carefully drag windows to the side until I expose the icon, while trying to not move them too far out of their position when I will start to confuse their purpose. It's a royal pain. If I try to use show desktop, then open a new application, I lose the careful partitioning of used / paged out applications.

If I was able to use expose, one button exposes my desktop, I open the application / document I want, and everything immediately comes back into the right place.

The difference in usability is stunning. Now when you combine that with the expose show all / tab trick on osxhints, I can easily manage a dozen terminal windows, a dozen editor windows, and several browser windows without ever getting lost.

[jaykk]

I think apple covered it by modifying original patent for Newton to update it with "Multiple persona", i guess. Apple is going to use that to show prior case if MS comes knocking. But apple have a chance to fight with MS on "piles" though.

[Fukui]

Originally posted by iPC

Entry: equivalent
Function: adjective
Definition: same
Synonyms: agnate, akin, alike, analogous, carbon, commensurate, comparable, convertible, copy, correlative, correspondent, corresponding, ditto, duplicate, equal, even, homologous, identical, indistinguishable, interchangeable, like, parallel, proportionate, reciprocal, same difference, similar, substitute, synonymous, tantamount
Antonyms: different, differing, dissimilar, diverse, incompatible, unequal, unlike
Concept: equivalence
Source: Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright © 2003 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

Aside from getting into a retarded and useless argument about semantics, your example shows a problem, copy and similar are synonyms to the word equivalence, not to each other...

Anyways, ironically I did use a thesuarus....the one in MS word.

[iPC]

Originally posted by Fukui
Aside from getting into a retarded and useless argument about semantics, your example shows a problem, copy and similar are synonyms to the word equivalence, not to each other...

Anyways, ironically I did use a thesuarus....the one in MS word.
I happen to agree with you. I was just showing the jump in logic the other poster was probably using. I was a engineering major, so I usually don't care about semantics unless we are discussing accuracy vs. precision. ;)

To me, similar does not equal copy. Duplicate equals copy however. There are differences in the implementations. Apple went from being behind, to jumping ahead. This is what they do. They are very rarely first to market with an all new thing, but they do usually make improvements worth noticing.

--

10 terminals open - you need a terminal app that does tabs. Then you could have 2 or 3 open (for side to side comparisons when you need it) windows instead of 10.

[jxyama]

Originally posted by iPC
They are very rarely first to market with an all new thing, but they do usually make improvements worth noticing.


probably not "all new" thing but they do a pretty good job of introducing something useful to the masses in a very functional package. (superdrive, wireless, wireless-g, iTMS, firewire, usb, etc. none of these were invented by apple, with the exception of firewire and iTMS, but apple definitely was the first to implement them to be used by much wider audience than the original inventor.)

i tend to think adopting the technology to be usable/available to the masses is almost worth equal in praise as the original invention. who made the transistor radios available to the public to be useful - sony or engineers that invented transistors?

[iPC]

Originally posted by jxyama
probably not "all new" thing but they do a pretty good job of introducing something useful to the masses in a very functional package. (superdrive, wireless, wireless-g, iTMS, firewire, usb, etc. none of these were invented by apple, with the exception of firewire and iTMS, but apple definitely was the first to implement them to be used by much wider audience than the original inventor.)

i tend to think adopting the technology to be usable/available to the masses is almost worth equal in praise as the original invention. who made the transistor radios available to the public to be useful - sony or engineers that invented transistors?
superdrive and 802.11g are 2 recent examples of Apple _NOT_ being first to market. Linksys 802.11g routers were out months before Airport Extreme was available. IIRC, the Pioneer DVD-R drive Apple used was available for sale well before it was included in PowerMacs. I think Apple was first with firewire, and they used USB before anyone else important, again, IIRC. iTMS does not count, as it is a service, and it is definitely _NOT_ first to market as a place to buy music files online (essentially all that iTMS does - no matter how nicely).

http://www.linksys.com/press/press.asp?prid=107&cyear=2003

http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/01/07/airport/

Above are links just an example...

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by iPC
I think Apple was first with firewire

Sorry - Sony was shipping iLink standard on its Windows systems before Apple included it on any Mac.


and they used USB before anyone else important, again, IIRC.

You are right here, due to careful choice of language.

USB ports were standard on many PCs for at least a year before the iMac shipped.

Few of the USB ports on PCs were actually *used*, however, since the PCs had alternate ports and the Windows support for USB was pretty poor before Windows 98....

Apple brought out the iMac with *only* USB expansion at this time, and jump started the moribund USB industry.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Nope - Sony was shipping iLink standard on its Windows systems before Apple included it on any Mac.

Link?

Apple had Firewire on Macs in January, 1999.

http://www.apple-history.com/noframes/body.php?page=gallery&model=g3blue

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Link?

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9812/10/tophome.idg/

Top 10 home PCs

December 10, 1998
Web posted at: 11:45 AM EST

by Kirk Steers

(IDG) -- If you're one of those people who are still waiting for the next great technology before taking the leap and buying a new machine, you're probably still using an abacus. Over the past 18 months, Universal Serial Bus, DVD-ROM, and now FireWire (also known as IEEE 1394) have joined the elite company of much-hyped technologies that have found their way into actual PCs.

FireWire is touted as a faster, easier-to-use interface for hard drives and multimedia devices. Though you won't find many FireWire hard drives for sale anytime soon, a few digital cameras and video recorders on the market do use FireWire's 200-mbps transfer rates to download images straight into a computer.

Two power systems on this month's chart boast the speedy new interface: Sony's new entertainment dream machine, the VAIO PCV-E308DS, and a home networking solution, Compaq's Presario 5600.

There were earlier systems as well, but a magazine review from December 1998 pretty much destroys any claim that the B&W G3 was first.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by iPC
superdrive and 802.11g are 2 recent examples of Apple _NOT_ being first to market. Linksys 802.11g routers were out months before Airport Extreme was available. IIRC, the Pioneer DVD-R drive Apple used was available for sale well before it was included in PowerMacs.

DVD authoring used to require dedicated hardware (other than the drive itself). Apple innovated in accomplishing it in software at a fast enough rate to be useful.

Originally posted by iPC
I think Apple was first with firewire

Apple invented FireWire.

[jxyama]

i never said apple was the first to use the technology or make it available. i said available to the general public in useful (configured) way. it's one thing to say there were external devices you can use for dvd-r or wireless-g before apple included them - i know that and i don't dispute that - but another thing to say they came standard (or as an option), pre-configured with functional software bundled to make them usable to any joe schmoe.

before sony put together transistor radio, any techies with knowledge of transistors could have done the same. that still doesn't take away from sony making it widely available to the public by offering it in the form that's usable and cost effective. if the technology is there but is not used, then what's the point?

i'm not interested at all who invents what. all i'm interested in is who makes those inventions available and useful to me.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9812/10/tophome.idg/

There were earlier systems as well, but a magazine review from December 1998 pretty much destroys any claim that the B&W G3 was first.

Good info. Thanks.

As others have pointed out, Apple has still done more than any other company in the advancement of this technology.

[tychay]

BTW, I stopped responding to the troll because I think his posts stand by themselves. Heck, maybe it'd cause a few people to scroll back and read my post to see what he's trolling.

Originally posted by Fukui
I was waiting for you to show up.

1) I didn't say X Windows.
2) In Unix you can just fire up a shell and login as anyone you want, startup programs as any user, as long as you have authentication...it actually better in some ways because you can mix and match apps on the same desktop as other users.
3) Virtual Desktops are akin to user switching.
4) "Forever" was a exaggeration...I think you know better...but I guess not.

(3) is a really bad idea. Classic Mac zealot David K. Every ruined a perfectly good critique of Panther by trying to use Fast User Switching as a substitute for Virtual Desktops.

I'm going to have to side with Aiden here. The salient points of "FUS" is the concept of multiple logins and on the desktop. The only way I can do FUS in the Unix world is to use Virtual Network Computer (VNC). Yes, I've been using multiple logins for years, heck, I've been using multiple X sessions for years, but until FUS, I wasn't using multiple logins on a physical machine.

Not that I'm using FUS today. My roomates however like it. They're using my mac fileserver much more, much to my chagrin.

Too bad you can't leave iTunes running, it'd be nice if my roomate can leave iTunes open so he can access his music share over Rendezvous when my other roomate wants to listen to his crap.

[Wombatronic]

Originally posted by greenstork
Well said, although I still contend that there's nothing like expose on Windows at least nothing nearly as functional.

Well, no one seems to have mentioned what happens when you right click on the start bar thingy. You get a menu with, among other things, "cascade windows", "tile windows horizontally", "tile windows vertically", "show desktop" ... etc

these have a similar effect as expose, but keep the windows in place (ie, used for arranging windows, not finding misplaced ones). If you like, you can right click again, and select "undo tile". Not sure who all the bozos where offering up bets that "windows apologists" have not used expose (I have, btw) but it seems they haven't used XP.

All this said, I agree with the Kid's point about smooth transitions. Makes it more pleasant, but it is still pretty clear that the *functionality* of expose is in XP (caveat: "omg omg, but is is not functional without the smooth transition and... and... WAAAAAA!!!" folks can bite me.)

[ottawawatts]

Originally posted by Wombatronic
Well, no one seems to have mentioned what happens when you right click on the start bar thingy. You get a menu with, among other things, "cascade windows", "tile windows horizontally", "tile windows vertically", "show desktop" ... etc

these have a similar effect as expose, but keep the windows in place (ie, used for arranging windows, not finding misplaced ones). If you like, you can right click again, and select "undo tile". Not sure who all the bozos where offering up bets that "windows apologists" have not used expose (I have, btw) but it seems they haven't used XP.

All this said, I agree with the Kid's point about smooth transitions. Makes it more pleasant, but it is still pretty clear that the *functionality* of expose is in XP (caveat: "omg omg, but is is not functional without the smooth transition and... and... WAAAAAA!!!" folks can bite me.)

you can bite me you little *****. next what you are talking about is nothing like expose and you know it. you are a pc troll. have you even tried expose? i thought not. then shut your hole.

[jxyama]

ok, it's not cool to start cursing and such, guys. i don't know why this happens on online boards. people say things they wouldn't in person.

i guess some of us are very adament about XP and expose and such... all i can say is, i've used XP and it was never advertized to me of all those "features." at least apple told me that such features are available and i've found them to be very useful. i'll try XP stuff when get home on my gf's dell.

[Rower_CPU]

User banned. That sort of behavior will not be allowed.

Read the rules (http://forums.macrumors.com/announcement.php?forumid=20), folks.

[Wombatronic]

Originally posted by jxyama

i guess some of us are very adament about XP and expose and such... all i can say is, i've used XP and it was never advertized to me of all those "features." at least apple told me that such features are available and i've found them to be very useful. i'll try XP stuff when get home on my gf's dell.

Good. I will bet $20 that you wont like it as much as expose, but it *will* make you feel a little differently about the degree of Apple's innovation with expose.

Everyone else should try it out too, if only so that you can more clearly express why you like expose more. You won't win any converts with uninformed soapboxing. (or you should feel guilty about it, anyhow) :)

[iPC]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
DVD authoring used to require dedicated hardware (other than the drive itself). Apple innovated in accomplishing it in software at a fast enough rate to be useful.



Apple invented FireWire.
Wrong.

FireWire was initially developed by TI for Apple. FireWire supports 63 Device connectivity, hot swapping, multiple speeds and isochronous data transfers. (Required for bandwidth of multi-media content delivery.)

http://www.buildorbuy.org/1394.html

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by iPC
Wrong.

http://www.buildorbuy.org/1394.html

From that page:
IEEE 1394 was conceived by Apple Computer and then developed within the IEEE 1394 Working Group.

Picking on the word "invented" gets us nowhere. It's obvious that Apple originated the idea and set about creating it with the IEEE.

[iPC]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
From that page:


Picking on the word "invented" gets us nowhere. It's obvious that Apple originated the idea and set about creating it with the IEEE.
And IEEE 1394a is based on older tech that Apple was not involved with. Selective absorption is cool....

IEEE 1394-1995: Similar to 1394a, this is an earlier standard that has been replaced by IEEE 1394a. It is used in devices such as digital video cameras, but in the future most devices will comply with IEEE 1394a.
From the same page even.

[Phil Of Mac]

I was going to buy a Mercedes, but since they didn't invent the seat belt, airbag, CD player, wheel, automatic transmission, or internal combustion engine, they've obviously put no work into innovation. They're a bunch of bastards.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by iPC
And IEEE 1394a is based on older tech that Apple was not involved with. Selective absorption is cool....


From the same page even.

How is it selective absorption if they conceived it and it evolved from their original concept? Are all of the version of the 1394 spec based on different technology?

[greenstork]

Originally posted by Wombatronic
Well, no one seems to have mentioned what happens when you right click on the start bar thingy. You get a menu with, among other things, "cascade windows", "tile windows horizontally", "tile windows vertically", "show desktop" ... etc

these have a similar effect as expose, but keep the windows in place (ie, used for arranging windows, not finding misplaced ones). If you like, you can right click again, and select "undo tile". Not sure who all the bozos where offering up bets that "windows apologists" have not used expose (I have, btw) but it seems they haven't used XP.

All this said, I agree with the Kid's point about smooth transitions. Makes it more pleasant, but it is still pretty clear that the *functionality* of expose is in XP (caveat: "omg omg, but is is not functional without the smooth transition and... and... WAAAAAA!!!" folks can bite me.)

I offered up that bet to the windows apologists who clearly had not used the feature as you pointed out.

However, I stand by that bet that many who have criticized it have probably never used it and ironically, I think you agree. Which begs the question, why are you calling me a bozo.

If you bothered to read my other posts perhaps you see that I'm not just "soapboxing" and that I explained, in detail, how it is differnt than anything it Windows. It is changing the way a drag and drop operation is performed. You can tile windows all you want in XP, but not while you're dragging a file. Did you catch that? You can't drag a file and right click to tile your windows at the same time. Is it sinking it yet? XP is not as functional.

In addition, Apple has expose set up super easily with hot corners and hot keys. I even have a mouse button on an expert mouse configured for it. I don't have to right click, and select from a menu. I drag my mouse into a corner (quickly), press a function key, or press a mouse button on my expert mouse to use expose. There is just no comparison to that ease of use in windows. Pulling up a contextual menu (right-click) is simply not the same ease of use, it's nowhere close.

In addition, when you tile a bunch of open windows, you can't see the content of those windows. In expose, you see all of them, and what's going on inside in real time. Again, XP tiling, not nearly as useful.

I could go on but I think you're starting to get the idea. What I think is that expose is a brand new feature and that although you have used it, you don't really understand all it is capabale of. That, or you're trolling, I can't really say. But if you think right clicking multiple times and selecting from contextual menus is easier or the same, you should probably just stick to XP.

[stcanard]

Originally posted by Wombatronic
Well, no one seems to have mentioned what happens when you right click on the start bar thingy. You get a menu with, among other things, "cascade windows", "tile windows horizontally", "tile windows vertically", "show desktop" ... etc


Hmm, interesting. I had no idea that was there. I'll have to play with it and see what I think. Windows may have functionality closer than I thought (although I am now hooked on tabbing through my applications when expose is active, that's brilliant)

The only arrangment thing I knew of was the "Show Desktop" button between the Start Button and the minimized applications.

Does the show the desktop / undo minimize work better than the "show desktop" option beside the start menu? I'm afraid to experiment. After my last one I had to waste something like 10 minutes trying to figure out which windows I had been using.

[iPC]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
I was going to buy a Mercedes, but since they didn't invent the seat belt, airbag, CD player, wheel, automatic transmission, or internal combustion engine, they've obviously put no work into innovation. They're a bunch of bastards.
Read my sig...

I give credit where it is due.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=objective

3a sums it up nicely.

[1macker1]

it's useable on Windows, but it's nothing that you would want to use. Yes i have used Expose, and i like using it, but with Windows, it's too much of a hassle. But that's just me.
Originally posted by stcanard
Hmm, interesting. I had no idea that was there. I'll have to play with it and see what I think. Windows may have functionality closer than I thought (although I am now hooked on tabbing through my applications when expose is active, that's brilliant)

The only arrangment thing I knew of was the "Show Desktop" button between the Start Button and the minimized applications.

Does the show the desktop / undo minimize work better than the "show desktop" option beside the start menu? I'm afraid to experiment. After my last one I had to waste something like 10 minutes trying to figure out which windows I had been using.