Windows expert slams Panther

[iGav]

comparing an existing OS to one that isn't going to see release for another 2 maybe 3 years.... :rolleyes: :p

do you agree?? disagree??

discuss...


Rinky dink link

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/top_news_item.cfm?NewsID=7283


Full article below....

A leading Windows expert has dismissed Mac OS X as offering "nothing in the way of usability advancements over previous desktop operating systems".


Windows apologist Paul Thurrott has written several books about Microsoft operating systems. His statements are contained in a selection of answers to frequently asked questions about Microsoft's next significant operating system release, Longhorn, which will reportedly ship in 2005 or 2006.


Discussing the architecture of Longhorn, the author answers a FAQ question. This asks: "But Mac OS X already has a lot of (Longhorn's promised) features. What's the big deal?"


Thurrott responds: "Apple has implemented some basic desktop composition features in Mac OS X "Panther." But the basic problem with Mac OS X isn't going away: It's a classic desktop operating system that doesn't offer anything in the way of usability advancements over previous desktop operating systems.


"Today, Windows XP and its task-based interface are far superior to anything in Mac OS X. In the future, Longhorn will further distance Windows from OS X. From a graphical standpoint, there won't be any comparison. As Microsoft revealed at the PDC 2003 conference, Longhorn is far more impressive technically than Panther."

[caveman_uk]

In a word...Bull****

I've used windows XP a lot and in terms of the way you use it is no different from windows 95/98/Me/NT or 2000. They are all much the same. They've just got more stable with each release (well except Me) and require even higher spec'd machines. Task based my arse....

[peterjhill]

Windows XP is nothing more than NT6.0 that had some colorblind person design a new interface (no offense to those who are colorblind).

Task oriented? What the hell is that? If it were so advanced, you would think they would not ship it with so many virus transmission vectors open.

[hacurio1]

Originally posted by iGAV
comparing an existing OS to one that isn't going to see release for another 2 maybe 3 years.... :rolleyes: :p

do you agree?? disagree??

discuss...


Rinky dink link

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/top_news_item.cfm?NewsID=7283


Full article below....

Actually, I don’t believe somebody who doesn’t know what he is talking about, or even worst, somebody who only changes the wording of his website to accommodate partial statements. If I recall correctly, this FAQ isn’t new, I know I’ve read it before. When I say, “I’ve read it before,” I mean I’ve read this article several months ago, when panther wasn’t even released nor previewed. If I remember correctly, several months ago, when I read this for the first time, the author had “jaguar” instead of “panther” in the exact same phrase.

“Apple has implemented some basic desktop composition features in Mac OS X "Jaguar." But the basic problem with Mac OS X isn't going away: It's a classic desktop operating system that doesn't offer anything in the way of usability advancements over previous desktop operating systems. Today, Windows XP and its task-based interface are far superior to anything in Mac OS X. In the future, Longhorn will further distance Windows from OS X. From a graphical standpoint, there won't be any comparison.”

Then as soon as the preview for panther was given, he changed his wording to “panther” and hasn’t changed anything since then.

I don’t understand how he defines “usability Advancements;” moreover, I simply cant understand what does he mean when he writes, “(Panther) It’s a classic operating system that doesn’t offer anything new in the way of usability advancements over previous desktop operating systems.” Is he blind? Is he dumb? Or has he simply never used panther?

[patrick0brien]

-Gents

Let me point something out...

"Apple has implemented some basic desktop composition features in Mac OS X "Panther." But the basic problem with Mac OS X isn't going away: It's a classic desktop operating system that doesn't offer anything in the way of usability advancements over previous desktop operating systems.


"Today, Windows XP and its task-based interface are far superior to anything in Mac OS X. In the future, Longhorn will further distance Windows from OS X. From a graphical standpoint, there won't be any comparison. As Microsoft revealed at the PDC 2003 conference, Longhorn is far more impressive technically than Panther."

All of that, with zero backup. There is no content here, no concrete.

It's throwaway.

It is unfortunate that people will still believe him, even though he's not really saying anything.

[Powerbook G5]

I love how he says that in a few years Windows will be better than the version of OS X that is out right now. By then we will be on OS 10.5 or so. It's like Apple saying "We know that the G5 is only 2 GHz compared to the newer 3.4 GHz P4s, but that doesn't matter because they are still using Pentium 4 and in 5 years we will have 128-bit G8s running at 15 GHz, so obviously it is faster".

[Tim Flynn]

Longhorn is far more impressive technically than Panther

This simply silly. With Longhorns ship date of 2005 to 2006 (1-3 years away), it's funny to compare vapourware to a shipping product !

P.S. by "funny" I mean "STUPID"

[eclipse525]

...and with all the above said...this THREAD is offically closed. We can all move on and resume our normal lives.


~e

[spinner]

Interesting to hear what the windows "experts" are saying. Well I guess that's it then, lets pack it up and get out of here the Mac platform is officially dead. :rolleyes:

[bousozoku]

Come now, Deep Thurrott makes his money convincing people that Windows is the right choice. He doesn't need to be accurate. He just has to be legal in his words.

Does the fact that he's never tried Mac OS X bother you? It shouldn't. He gets early releases of Windows so that he can show carefully selected parts in screenshots, never showing work that's bad or controversial.

He even goes out of his way to post on MacCentral telling the world that Windows is wonderful. He never seems to convince anyone that there aren't problems with viruses or security holes, though. :D

[asphalt-proof]

I'm too lazy and disinterested in reading the whole article so my comments stem solely from the quotes above.

The guy is getting paid by somebody and it rhymes iwth Bicrosoft. I recently switched from windows and can say that XP is not that user-friendly. Some of the menus I used all the time (Windows Explorer) have been buried almost out of sight. Other features don't make intuitive sense. (Task bar grouping). And its still a virus magnet. These other things can be forgiven but to leave your software wide open for exploitation is unforgivable. It makes that "user advancements" useless if I am continually loading patches or rebooting from a crash. XP is MUCH more stable than 95, 98 etc. But its still is leakier than a collandar with a bladder control problem.
I think that he is more than just microsoft fanboy... he's a paid microsoft fanboy.
By the way, I am really getting tired of purported comparisons of Longhorn (due out in 2006) to a currently used operating system. WHy doesn't Apple respond by saying how much more usably advanced Panther is to Win 98. The timeline difference is about the same. Just my .02$

[revenuee]

Its name suggests it's doomed to fail

common longhorn?

It's a cow with giant horns :D ;)

The OS has potential, it's being build from the ground,rather than just being modified ,,,

BUT i would rather use an outdated mac running OS 9 then subject myself to a MS OS again.... shudders

[idea_hamster]

Originally posted by peterjhill
Task oriented? What the hell is that?
I had this same question, so I poked around a bit. It seems from this same guy's review of something MS calls "Activity Centers" (http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/ac_preview.asp) (is this kindergarten?) a task-based interface is basically a "wizard" -- but there's one for everything that you want to do. Import photos? Wizard. Listen to music? Wizard. :rolleyes: Just one more step closer to being copper-top in an ooze-filled pod.

[eclipse525]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate......

....I'm not a big MS fan by any means BUT LongHorn(dumb name) may turn out to be a great OS. Who's to say that just because XP isnt' up to par that this new OS being built from the gound up isn't going to kick ass. I love my Mac BUT I'm all for what works better. You never know...keep an open mind. We'll only REALLY know when it actually comes out.

~e

[Powerbook G5]

I am not saying that Longhorn will be bad but it's downright moronic to make claims of it being superior to Mac OS when it is nearly 3 years from being an actual product. Apple is not going to stand still in that time. By then we will be using OS 10.5 or 10.6 even. By then we may have Quartz Hyper Extreme Squared, Exposé 3, Safari 4, etc. It's just not good practice to knock the competition for something just released because you are coming out with something "newer" a few years later. If so, Apple would be putting FAQs up on their website for why to switch: "Because in 10 years we will have G8s and computers that can calculate 100 trillion flops per second running a version of Mac OS so advanced we cannot tell you about it yet. What does Windows have? XP and Pentium 4's".

[stoid]

The second scene on the 11-13-03 edition of AppleTurns, "Conciliatory Press RULES" there is another windows expert's vantage on the Mac OS.

[idea_hamster]

Originally posted by eclipse525
I'm gonna play devil's advocate.... Who's to say that just because XP isnt' up to par that this new OS being built from the gound up isn't going to kick ass.
I try not to wish failure upon others, but I think that cautious pessimism is in order here -- especially since they're rebuilding from the ground up.

Apple didn't build from the ground up. Apple started with FreeBSD. Given that MS seems to have an awful time implementing Apple's innovations (note their mention of a "dock-like Sidebar" :rolleyes: ), I just don't think that Longhorn is going to go off with a bang -- especially since it seems that all Windows applications will have to be rewritten (or at least recompiled).

MS doesn't have the corporate culture to really go from blank slate to whopping success.

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
I am not saying that Longhorn will be bad but it's downright moronic to make claims of it being superior to Mac OS when it is nearly 3 years from being an actual product. Apple is not going to stand still in that time. By then we will be using OS 10.5 or 10.6 even.

Actually, he's claiming XP is superior in its present form to OSX and that Longhorn (if it ever ships) will graphically be lightyears ahead of OSX.

So he likes the Windows way and gets paid to like the Windows way and gets paid to write that he likes the Windows way. Now can he just go away? :D

There's no accounting for taste.

But people who forge and determine the trends and style of the world are doing so on OSX. People who are figuring out how to make the least expensive systems using the cheapest materials and quirkiest software are doing so on Windows. There's room for both. But there's only one in my room. - j

[Powerbook G5]

Who actually uses the "task-based" features of XP? I've always found them to be the most annoying and worst part of the OS itself. The very fact that XP seems to be nothing but a task-based metaphor to OS X is its biggest flaw in my eyes. It's just funny to me that that is the biggest reason the guy gives for XP being "far superior" to OS X. I'd much rather having OS X set it up automatically in the background to going through a Wizard and when I need to set something up, I like doing it myself than using an unintuitive Wizard.

[mj_1903]

I e-mailed him a large e-mail with many technical points (I have used XP/Longhorn and use Mac OS X daily) and this was his reply:

Sorry, I've been using OS X every day for over two years, and I now own two Macs.

By using I think he means using them as a space heater?

[rueyeet]

Originally posted by eclipse525
I'm gonna play devil's advocate....Who's to say that just because XP isnt' up to par that this new OS being built from the gound up isn't going to kick ass.

I'll say it, for one. Not because it's Windows, but because I've been paying attention to the specific Longhorn features they've been touting, and looking at the early screenshots.

First, Microsoft is taking advantage of its settlement with Netscape to finally and completely integrate Internet Explorer into the OS. Bye, bye browser choice. And hello, Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish. The web standards people aren't just being paranoid when they voice concern as to what this will mean for every non-MS browser out there.

Second, widespread use of .NET, which as far as I have been able to tell is nothing more than Microsoft's answer to Java. Again, integrate with the OS, crush out the competition. Thanks to the laissez-faire attitude of the DoJ, they get away with both of these.

Activity centers = a Wizard for everything and everything in its Wizard. Unless they've improved by several orders of magnitude, this is not good. I can't count the number of times a wizard has done something I didn't want it to, or tied options I don't want with the options I do want. Why not simply make the settings as easy to reach and understand as OS X's System Preferences? Wizards are just a way to disguise how overcomplicated and difficult to configure Windows (and Office) is. And I use both every day, so this is not an uninformed Machead talking. There are Wizards you just learn to stay away from.

Oh, and the screenshots. Don't they understand the concept of screen real estate? Look at that sidebar thing...in many of the featured shots, the entire top space was dedicated to a picture, for no reason I could figure out. And they seem to have increased the size of the title bar with buttons and widgets I can't even remotely guess the use of. More features does not have to mean more clutter.

I've been using Windows since 3.1, up through 3.11, 95, 98, and 2KPro. And I have to say that it annoys me more with every revision, and that Longhorn does not look to reverse this trend from what information is available.

[jayscheuerle]

If Longhorn is going to be groundbreaking or great, it will be a first for Microsoft.

Originality is not their strong suit and leading requires originality.

History shows us that Longhorn will be bloated, busy, cartoonish, condescending and over-controlling. It will uphold the image of Windows designers as having no idea what makes an OS great even as they poorly copy the best parts of OSX.

Does anyone remember the episode of the Simpsons where Homer designed his own car? That's what Longhorn is going to be.

[Powerbook G5]

That's great :D

[stoid]

As a testament to Mac OS X's superiority, my family runs Mac OS X at home and my friend's family Windows at home. In both cases, we were the computer geeks in the house and fixed problems when they occurred. Roughly every other weekend he has to fix problems with the home computer, and in nearly three months absolutely nothing has gone wrong with the Macintosh at our house. Makes my life much easier. :D

[tutubibi]

Quote from Paul Thurrott's Windows "Longhorn" FAQ:
---
Longhorn will include new anti-virus (AV) APIs that will help developers more easily integrate their wares into the base OS. Microsoft will also offer Longhorn customers a subscription-based AV feature that use AutoUpdate to keep your system up-to-date with new virus signatures.


Good reasoning :D .
Instead of making OS more secure and robust by doing proper design work, MS decides to create new revenue stream.

[Sun Baked]

Simply no improvement over the previous operating system. http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?postid=572877

Mac OS X is MUCH easier to use than the NeXT operating system for the first time user.

Most of the 10.1 -> 10.2 -> 10.3 user interface has been refinements, with the drastic improvements occuring underneath the GUI.

Apple is working with the open source community to improve the kernal, programs, and compilers.

Unfortunately these can only be pushed so fast/far.

Sure Apple could jump ship from GCC to XL C and realize a drastic improvement in programs.

But this would mean walking away from the open source project and letting the compiler and the OS diverge from the wealth of help Apple is getting and giving to the community.

Of course with MS, they are the standard -- so they can easily dictate their wishes on the world. :rolleyes:

---

Really funny when you consider this guy is comparing a 15 year old operating system to one that will be released in a few years.

And that acient grey haired NeXT gen OS is still evolving and getting better. :p

[Drifter]

This is a man who blurts out utter garbage with nothing to back up his claims. Should be have a check box comparison on UI alone, OS X is superior. I think I have some time, and I will do it.
Does Windows have Anti-aliased 128x128 icons? No.
Can Windows implement great, high quality themes as easily as we can?
Can the use Exposé? No.

Just a few. Exposé is the best feature OS X has had. IMO. I have, every day, Soundtrack, PS CS, Keynote, Acquisition, and iTunes–maybe even Mail or something to that tune–every day. Life just got better.

But back on topic. The man has never used OS X before. Ever. I argued with a guy by the name of "Pascal314" on wc3campagins.com. He was a rabid PeeCee loser who posed as a college kid. He cnp'ed almost all of his arguments from **** like macsucks.com or something, which I realized in retrospect. The man–boy–posted stuff almost straight from Microsoft's website. I didn't agree with everything Apple did, but 95% I did, and he called me a drone. It was annoying. Then he pulled out some bogus benchmarks and some article that said the G5 was less than 1/2 of its said speed. He argued with Windows, yet, at the same time, used Red Hat.
Add that to the fact he never used a Mac, let alone OS X. And I've used almost every incarnation of Windows.

Hypocrisy is their game. They are just losers who never used one before.
That man from the MacWorld article has never used it and makes judgments on it. I could sit down and tell you every difference I found between Windows -2000 and XP–on a fingerless hand. All XP had was a lousy UI adjustment to copy Aqua–and failed. It looks like a candy coated kiddy piece of crap. First, they had those drab grays and reds and blues, now they have the ugliest and most out of place reds and greens like a Macy's in December. Add that to the most virus laden OS. And the fact that is still based on the original DOS, which wasn't much even back then. Now you have the most un-userfriendly UI imaginable with gloss. And the fact it needs drivers and BIOs **** to worry about doesn't make for something very fun.

But when it comes down to it, what does the man go home to? A beige box with XP and I go home to by 1900x1200
?Drifter

[idea_hamster]

Originally posted by Drifter
Reminds me of the French. And I hate France.
Um, well, I'm sad to hear that you've managed to develop a hatred for an entire nation of 60+ million people. I can only suppose you base your opinion on more experience with French people than Pascal314 had with Mac OS.

[Drifter]

Very Funny (http://www.pbbt.com/old/humor/index.html) Top 10 reasons
Stupid PC users who can't make a web page (http://mac-sucks.com/index.php)
That last one will make you want to bust out the pretty little 8mm.

[Rower_CPU]

Stay on topic folks.

Nation/nationality bashing will get you banned.

[jonapete2001]

Originally posted by revenuee
Its name suggests it's doomed to fail

common longhorn?

It's a cow with giant horns :D ;)

The OS has potential, it's being build from the ground,rather than just being modified ,,,

BUT i would rather use an outdated mac running OS 9 then subject myself to a MS OS again.... shudders

i will never use os0 again. I recently booted into 9 just for kicks and i was remined why osx was needed. Os9 sucks any windows offering since 95 on up is more usable than os9. Osx is a different story.

[Powerbook G5]

OS 9 is incredibly stable, I have used it for over 3 years and it has never given me a single problem. Nothing ever crashed and the only time Finder would give me a hang up would be when the network went screwy and made it unresponsive. I loved OS 9, it was really stable and extremely fast.

Well I lied...I do remember AOL unexpectedly quitting on me quite a few times due to low memory errors...but AOL sucks in general.

[Drifter]

AOL horror stories would take pages. Although it'd be funny, let's keep on the topic of stupid PeeCee users who bash OS X as Microsoft slips them a twenty.

[revenuee]

Originally posted by jonapete2001
i will never use os0 again. I recently booted into 9 just for kicks and i was remined why osx was needed. Os9 sucks any windows offering since 95 on up is more usable than os9. Osx is a different story.

i think your wrong.... :D


LOL .... oh how insightful on my part ;)

I switched 4 years ago from Windows 98 into OS 9, and it was the easiest transition i have ever had, but it was almost like starting from scratch because i had no attachment to my old setup... but this switch from OS 9 to OS 10, has been deadly... SCSI drives won't mount, manufacturer of the SCSI card didn't have a firmware update, had to find the chip manufacturerer and get a chip firmware upgrade.... but now if i want to use my Hard Drive, i have to install the drivers then restart the computer and only then it will mount... if for some reason i need to restart the computer, after the restart the drive won't mount anymore... so i have to delete the driver, and then install it again and then restart...

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by peterjhill
Windows XP is nothing more than NT6.0

Windows XP is Windows NT 5.1

[Drifter]

designuk, we all know that Microsoft "repackages" version of OSs and slaps a new name on them.
XP is just a bastard offspring of a bitch of an OS. I don't care what garbage color scheme and rounded buttons they slap on it, it is still based on a buggy frame, DOS. Originally, QDOS, Quick and Dirty Operating System. Quick and dirty in the early 1980's…today…would be trash. And it sure as hell is. Granted, they have made modifications, but it still is DOS. And DOS is flakier than a spastic cat.

Viruses, it has alot of. My friend's brother had his whole system hosed when he gut Blaster a couple months back. And there has never been any recorded OS X virus. A wonder why that is? Well, to my knowledge, alot of ports on OS X are closed. But it also has UNIX under it's GUI.

It would be much more interesting to see what this neanderthal would say about the G5. And those PC fanboys are still believe in a pipe dream called a good MS OS.
MS, I believe, has never made an OS from scratch. They have just added more to DOS. Now they have this dream of something called "Longhorn".
Firstly, that is the lamest code-name. Eva.
Second, it has been delayed like no one's business. Odds are it'll slip again.
Thirdly, by 2006, Apple will have an OS that has really come of age. And by that time, we'll have OS XI at some dot release like .1 or .2. Apple has the head start, and Microsoft has been ****ing up every chance to outdo them. Now their next OS is at least two years away, and XP is still ugly, unintuitive, and basically crap. And the weeds of the OS, viruses, will become more frequent. You could probably write a virus in less than an hour for XP.

XP just seems a little…crude, unpolished, ugly, and slow. And they'll have to deal with that piece of **** for another two years. Then Longhorn comes out, as hyped as plug n play, and fails to meet its expectations of something like, I don't know, OS X.

Speaking of which, I wonder what OS XI will be like? Can they really make it that much better?

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by Drifter
Now they have this dream of something called "Longhorn".

Speaking of which, I wonder what OS XI will be like? Can they really make it that much better?

Maybe call it "Longshot" instead? :D

The OS future, and hopefully Apple's, lies in approaches that haven't even been imagined yet. Look at Expose. Expose exists now because machines have the graphics ability to handle it. As machines get stronger, we'll be running all kinds of voice activated, expression and gesture recognizing software. Someday, OSX will be looked upon the way that OS6 is looked upon today. A quaint start to something great. And that great thing will be rendered quaint one day as well.

Just expect the unexpected and you'll be spot on. ;)

[Powerbook G5]

By OS 12 I expect to see a "Steve" button, where upon pressing it, a miniature Steve materializes next to my PowerBook and asks to grant 3 wishes. It should be a part of .Mac subscription where you get access to Steve once a month to grant you those 3 wishes.

[MrMacMan]

Originally posted by peterjhill
Windows XP is nothing more than NT6.0 that had some colorblind person design a new interface (no offense to those who are colorblind).


I take offense!

How could you!!!

Hooww!

I am red-green color blind!

Yuo Are Evilll!

;) (okay so I am color blind)




Okay people.

My New Os will Blow everything out of the water.

It is called the 'StarUltraMaxToTheExTremeXX Os'
Or 'SUMEXTXX'

It will run ALL OS'S.

It will run Mac Programs.

It will run PC programs.
Any OS?
Any Application, I can open it.

File is corrupted?
The Os will fix it.

You need a file?

Think about it, WHAM it is right there in front of you.

Prepare to be blown away people...

Prepare!

Coming 2020

[themadchemist]

yes, he's right. I give up. I'm moving to PC. damn. :D :p :D

[edesignuk]

- drifter

Have you used windows xp? My XP system is just as stable as my OS X system. I have NEVER had a virus, and never had a BSOD (been using it since release candidate 2). We all know there are many viri out there just waiting to attack windows, that's why anyone with half a brain should have GOOD antivirus, and have windows update automatically download and install updates, by doing this I have NEVER had a problem.
And as for XP looking like sh*t, that's easily fixed. Sure it looks pants out of the box, but windows xp has a very easily skinable UI. Themexp.org has many great themes to make your XP look good.
I am not a PC "fan boy", but I will not be a blind Mac "fan boy" either, zealots on both sides really piss me off! :mad:
OS X is a great stable OS, and for me, so is windows XP.

edit: typo

[Powerbook G5]

One thing I like about Windows that I wish I had in OS X is the ability to change font style and color to icon labels, system fonts, etc. In Windows you can literally change every single thing from every widget, font, dialogue box, icon, etc. Heck, you can change the location of the close, minimize, and maximize buttons. That is something that'd be awesome to have on OS X.