Upgrade single G5 to dual possible?

[random1]

If I were to purchase the (recently discontinued) 1.8GHz G5, could I add another G5 at a later date to upgrade?

[Sun Baked]

NO

[jxyama]

yes, if by "upgrade" you meant getting another PowerMac with another single G5 in it. now you have dual G5! :rolleyes:

this kind of "upgrade" is not readily available on the PC side either, not at the desktop level.

[random1]

Originally posted by jxyama
yes, if by "upgrade" you meant getting another PowerMac with another single G5 in it. now you have dual G5! :rolleyes:

this kind of "upgrade" is not readily available on the PC side either, not at the desktop level.
Cute, but no that's not what I meant.

A friend is about to purchase a new Mac(I've been pushing him that way). He doesn't want to lay out massive cash as he's still pretty firmly in the PC world.
Main issues: Wants at least the 20" screen, so all of a sudden, the new iMac is a possibility, the old ones weren't.
Wants to do home photo/video editing. I realize the iMac is enough, I use the original iMac for my photo/video and it's fine. That said, if I was buying today, I would buy a G5 as I think the price difference is worth the extra life you'll get from the machine a few years down the road. So, I think the best move right now might be the old 1.8 at $2099 due to PCI-X and 8gb max ram, and he asked if he could upgrade in the future to dual. I think the new dual 1.8 is extremely tempting, as he was leaning towards the old 1.8 +20" display, and thus he would be "upgrading" for $100 compared to two days ago:D
We'll ignore the fact that it's $400 at today's prices...

[jxyama]

i know it's not the "upgrade" you meant. :D

sorry if i sounded mean or sarcastic. but the answer stands... it's not possible. so your friend will need to decide what kind of investment he wants to make for the longevity...

dual is not very useful unless you will be using dual processor aware programs. if you were thinking iMac will do the job for you, i'd think a better investment would be to get the 23" monitor.

the discontinued single 1.8 will be on sale now, no?

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by jxyama
dual is not very useful unless you will be using dual processor aware programs. Such as OS X...

[random1]

Originally posted by jxyama
i know it's not the "upgrade" you meant. :D

sorry if i sounded mean or sarcastic. but the answer stands... it's not possible. so your friend will need to decide what kind of investment he wants to make for the longevity...

dual is not very useful unless you will be using dual processor aware programs. if you were thinking iMac will do the job for you, i'd think a better investment would be to get the 23" monitor.

the discontinued single 1.8 will be on sale now, no?
yup, $2099, like I said above, and I think that's the right move.
But thanks for the info, I'm just trying to create another happy switcher.

[jxyama]

i'm sure your friend will be a happy switcher!

we have a dual g5 in our lab, hardly used... what a shame. but it's certainly an awesome machine.

[hobbes3113]

Originally posted by Counterfit
Such as OS X...

The OS is optimized for two processors, but there are not many programs that are. I think that is what jxyama is trying to get at...

[jxyama]

yep. i don't think it's hardly worth the money if the only "app" you have that's dual aware was Finder.

:rolleyes:

[disdoph]

PowerLogix says an upgrade ist possible fromt G5 1.8single -> dual. They are researching into this.

disdopoh

[Dont Hurt Me]

The only way to upgrade a single to a dual is with a complete new motherboard, tell you friend to wait a few weeks and new faster g5's should be coming and i wouldnt even doubt a G5 imac showing itself in the next few months and a faster new emac. consumer line needs a lot of help and Big Steve knows this.

[disdoph]

@Dont Hurt Me

Why do you think so (only way single->dual is a complete new motherboard)?

I'm no technician, but there a fittings for a second CPU-Card on the motherboard of the singel G5 1.8Ghz.

AND, why should PowerLogix say so, if it isn't.

Greetings! - and please excuse my bad English

disdoph

[Macpoops]

With the new design of the G5s each proc has it's own bank of memory and a dedicated channel for each proc to it's own memory bank. The Single 1.6s and 1.8s only have 1 bank of memory. The Dualies have 2 banks. Now unless they are putting a seperate memory bank on the actual dual proc card then it isn't possible. I'm fairly confident that there isn't a second socket for a second proc on any board other then the Dual 1.8 and Dual 2.0.

If their will be a Dualie upgrade it will be unlike anything we have today with the G4s

[disdoph]

Hmmm, bad news:(

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by Macpoops
With the new design of the G5s each proc has it's own bank of memory and a dedicated channel for each proc to it's own memory bank. The Single 1.6s and 1.8s only have 1 bank of memory. Nope, WRONG... the G5s do not have dedicated banks of memory to each CPU.

All the G5s are SHARED dual channel DDR, the SP G5 1.6 has 2 banks/pairs of dual channel DDR (4 DIMMs slots) while all the rest have 4 banks/pairs (8 DIMMs).

And all these slots are share via the U3 Memory controller to the CPU module's dedicated FSBs. I'm fairly confident that there isn't a second socket for a second proc on any board other then the Dual 1.8 and Dual 2.0. Right, there isn't a second socket for the 2nd processor, unlike the G4s the G5 each have a dedicated FSB to the U3 Memory Controller -- then out to dual channel DDR memory, and the Hypertransport PCI slots with passthrough to the Keylargo 2 I/O chip.

Since the single lacks the socket, one would need to be added -- which is a lot of soldering and chances to mess up the motherboard.

[disdoph]

But the G5 1.8 can handle 8GB of RAM, the G5 1.6 only 4GB. Isn't that a note that at least the 1.8 has the second channel?

On the motherboard of my G5 1.8 are four fittings at the place, where the second proc-card should be.

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by disdoph
But the G5 1.8 can handle 8GB of RAM, the G5 1.6 only 4GB. Isn't that a note that at least the 1.8 has the second channel?

On the motherboard of my G5 1.8 are four fittings at the place, where the second proc-card should be. If all of them need pairs of DIMMs and say 128-bit memory bus, then they're all dual channel.

Take a look at ...

http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G5/PowerMacG5/index.html

There's a ....

http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G5/PowerMacG5/art/03107301P1724_01.gif

And a bunch of details....

Memory bus: The main memory bus is 128 bit 333 MHz or 400 MHz. For more information, see “Main Memory Bus”.

... which basically is saying dual channel, since regual DDR memory is 64-bit.

[disdoph]

Thank you very much!

But what do you say to the from me described fittings. It seems that they are on the right place for an second cpu-card. Could it be so easy to ad a second? Or must there be a lot of soldering, as you sad.?

disdoph

[cvgraphics]

I just talked with apple and those who have a G5 1.8 single do in fact have the ability to upgrade to a dual processor version....it's simple. Purchase (from an authorized Apple vendor) the additional G5 processor module along with the fan, plug them in and PRESTO you're in business. By the way, the single 1.8 G5 comes complete with a dual memory bay configuration. Now the only trick left is to find an authorized Apple dealer who will sell you the parts.

[cc bcc]

And where would you want to plug in another G5? At least on my 1.8 G5 there is no second CPU socket. It should be possible to solder it on but you must have a very steady hand ;-)

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by Macpoops
With the new design of the G5s each proc has it's own bank of memory and a dedicated channel for each proc to it's own memory bank. The Single 1.6s and 1.8s only have 1 bank of memory. The Dualies have 2 banks. Now unless they are putting a seperate memory bank on the actual dual proc card then it isn't possible. I'm fairly confident that there isn't a second socket for a second proc on any board other then the Dual 1.8 and Dual 2.0.

If their will be a Dualie upgrade it will be unlike anything we have today with the G4s

Thank you SunBaked for your words of wisdom.
If after 6 months you are still oblivious to the most "basic" inner worings of the G5 then something is truely wrong. If you want a dual Proc Desktop, where each proc access's its own memory, buy an AMD Opteron system, with a Tyan motherboard.

Note: read my quote.

[crackpip]

Originally posted by jxyama
yep. i don't think it's hardly worth the money if the only "app" you have that's dual aware was Finder.



I think dual processor is totally worth the money if you use more than one app at a time. The OS will distribute tasks across both processors. Even when you're really beating on your machine, it will still feel nice and responsive.

Also(see "Core MacOS X and Unix Programming"), to take advantage of multiple processors you simply need to multithread your application. Once you multithread your app, the OS will distribute the threads across multiple processors.

There are a lot of apps out there, besides the finder, that are multithreaded. It can be advantageous to multithread even if its not to take advantage of multiple processors.

crackpip

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by disdoph
PowerLogix says an upgrade ist possible fromt G5 1.8single -> dual. They are researching into this.

disdopoh

Bwahahahaha!!!!

The answer is 'NO'

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by Macpoops
With the new design of the G5s each proc has it's own bank of memory and a dedicated channel for each proc to it's own memory bank. The Single 1.6s and 1.8s only have 1 bank of memory. The Dualies have 2 banks. Now unless they are putting a seperate memory bank on the actual dual proc card then it isn't possible. I'm fairly confident that there isn't a second socket for a second proc on any board other then the Dual 1.8 and Dual 2.0.

If their will be a Dualie upgrade it will be unlike anything we have today with the G4s

Sorry, but this is not correct.

Single Proc G5s might have only 4 DIMM slots, but there is no reason why 8 DIMM slots can't be utilized. Both processors do not have dedicated DRAM slots that each uses.

The difficulty in 'upgrading' a single processor G5 system is that the socket for the second processor just isn't there. And its a pretty delicate thing to put on that you can't just solder it on.

PowerLogix could do a trade-in, where they trade you a motherboard with 2 sockets, while you give them your motherboard with 1 socket. But, in essence, you have just traded your single proc computer for a dual proc computer.

Mac upgrades is done only one way. eBay the old computer and use the money to get another one. :p

[disdoph]

And why says Apple it's so simple?

---------------------------------
G5 Upgrade

I just talked with apple and those who have a G5 1.8 single do in fact have the ability to upgrade to a dual processor version....it's simple. Purchase (from an authorized Apple vendor) the additional G5 processor module along with the fan, plug them in and PRESTO you're in business. By the way, the single 1.8 G5 comes complete with a dual memory bay configuration. Now the only trick left is to find an authorized Apple dealer who will sell you the parts.
---------------------------------

:confused:

[cc bcc]

Originally posted by disdoph
And why says Apple it's so simple?

---------------------------------
G5 Upgrade

I just talked with apple and those who have a G5 1.8 single do in fact have the ability to upgrade to a dual processor version....it's simple. Purchase (from an authorized Apple vendor) the additional G5 processor module along with the fan, plug them in and PRESTO you're in business. By the way, the single 1.8 G5 comes complete with a dual memory bay configuration. Now the only trick left is to find an authorized Apple dealer who will sell you the parts.
---------------------------------

:confused:

Where did you get that from? It's just not possible, there is NO SOCKET. Secondly, Apple never says anything about upgradability, they don't make any money of it. Perhaps you have spoken to a Apple store employee or someone else low on the apple hierarchy, because he clearly didn't know what he was talking about.

[thatwendigo]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
The only way to upgrade a single to a dual is with a complete new motherboard, tell you friend to wait a few weeks and new faster g5's should be coming and i wouldnt even doubt a G5 imac showing itself in the next few months and a faster new emac. consumer line needs a lot of help and Big Steve knows this.

Other people have already answered the main part of this adquately, but something else just has to be said now. DHM is a bit of a zealot for some altered reality that he's decided will bring us G5 imacs, G5 game-oriented machines, and other such frivolity before we see PM bumps. I, on the other hand, not only expect Apple to put the fresh crop of 90nm processors into machines where they'll actually matter and make money (pro line and servers, if I wasn't explicit enough), but also want them to do so.

The 'consumer' line is fading, and I won't deny that, but Apple has always made a point of selling their best stuff in the pro line, and that's not something to ignore with the G5. Cutting costs would mean cutting performance by using older parts, more cheaply fabbed parts, or some other tactic that would sabotage the very aspects of the G5 that make it so fast. The chip is only as good as the architecture that keeps it fed, and we can ill afford a return to the bad old days of Motorola starving the G4... I'll repeat it here, just as I did on the gaming thread:

If you want to see a fast PM, then we need to keep pushing the technology curve. I could go and, for an OEM-built machine, order a PC with a 10k RPM SATA RAID-0 array at 73 GB for about $250-350 over the cost of a single, lower revolution SATA drive. You want performance, then you pay for it. Bring on high-speed drives that will feed the bus constantly, and in turn keep the two processors churning. Bring on PC4400 RAM, WD Raptor drives, FSBs that match the clock, and the newest graphics cards, and then we'll talk about things like dropping the price.

We need speed and competitive edge, and price just isn't going to be a place Apple can afford to play.

[FuzzyBallz]

Originally posted by jxyama this kind of "upgrade" is not readily available on the PC side either, not at the desktop level.

Not true at all. You can install either 1 more 2 CPU(s) depending on your budget on ALL AMD MP platform systems. The following is one of the newest examples. These mobos are readily available for consumers at most online retailers and some major B&M retailers such as Fry's.


MSI K8T800 Chipset Motherboard for Dual/Single AMD Socket 940 Opteron CPU, Model "K8T Master2-FAR" -RETAIL
Specifications:
Supported CPU: Socket 940 Dual/Single AMD Opteron CPU or Single Athlon64 FX CPU
Chipset: VIA K8T800 + VT8237
RAM: 4x DIMM for DDR200/266/333/400MHz Max 8GB(See Details)
IDE: 2x UltraDMA 133 up to 4 Devices
Slots: 1x AGP Pro 8X, 4x PCI 32-bit/33MHz
Ports: 2xPS2,1xLPT,2xCOM,1xLAN,4xUSB2.0(Rear 2)
Onboard LAN: Broadcom BCM5705 Gigabit Ethernet
Onboard SATA/RAID: 2x Serial ATA 150,RAID 0/1
Form Factor: ATX

(click me)
http://images10.newegg.com/productimage/13-130-436-04.JPG (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?DEPA=&sumit=Go&description=13%2D130%2D436&searchdepa=0)

[kenkooler]

Originally posted by jxyama
yep. i don't think it's hardly worth the money if the only "app" you have that's dual aware was Finder.

:rolleyes:

It is if you run several applications at once since the OS can distribute the load between the two.

[cvgraphics]

Sorry but you are both right and both wrong. Some single processor G5s have 2 memory banks...my 1.8 G5 has two. It just depends when and where you purchased your G5. Apple told me today that my single 1.8 G5 is totally upgradable to a dual processorl

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by cvgraphics
Sorry but you are both right and both wrong. Some single processor G5s have 2 memory banks...my 1.8 G5 has two. It just depends when and where you purchased your G5. Apple told me today that my single 1.8 G5 is totally upgradable to a dual processorl The SP 1.6 G5 had two banks of 128-bit DDR memory (aka, two pair and/or four standard DDR DIMMs).

The rest have four banks of 128-bit DDR memory (aka, four pair and/or eight standard DDR DIMMs).

Open the door if you don't see a empty high density processor socket on a SP 1.8 G5, it ain't upgradeable -- unless you trade in the machine for a new one.

Apple was selling 3 different G5 motherboards, with the termination of the SP 1.8 G5 -- they're down to two.

[Sun Baked]

This is a picture of a SP 1.8 PowerMac G5 logic board.

How do I know it's not a SP 1.6 G5 Motherboard?

Because it has 8 DIMM slots.

How do I know it's not a DP Motherboard?

Because it only has 1 (yes one) white Processor Connectors. A DP machine would have two.

Without that handy dandy little socket, the average brain donor won't be able to upgrade.

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by FuzzyBallz
Not true at all. You can install either 1 more 2 CPU(s) depending on your budget on ALL AMD MP platform systems. The following is one of the newest examples. These mobos are readily available for consumers at most online retailers and some major B&M retailers such as Fry's.


MSI K8T800 Chipset Motherboard for Dual/Single AMD Socket 940 Opteron CPU, Model "K8T Master2-FAR" -RETAIL
Specifications:
Supported CPU: Socket 940 Dual/Single AMD Opteron CPU or Single Athlon64 FX CPU
Chipset: VIA K8T800 + VT8237
RAM: 4x DIMM for DDR200/266/333/400MHz Max 8GB(See Details)
IDE: 2x UltraDMA 133 up to 4 Devices
Slots: 1x AGP Pro 8X, 4x PCI 32-bit/33MHz
Ports: 2xPS2,1xLPT,2xCOM,1xLAN,4xUSB2.0(Rear 2)
Onboard LAN: Broadcom BCM5705 Gigabit Ethernet
Onboard SATA/RAID: 2x Serial ATA 150,RAID 0/1
Form Factor: ATX

(click me)
http://images10.newegg.com/productimage/13-130-436-04.JPG (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?DEPA=&sumit=Go&description=13%2D130%2D436&searchdepa=0) I see two sockets there.

[oingoboingo]

What I want to know is if you can swap the G5 CPU modules between systems. For instance, could you take a 2GHz G5 CPU module and place it in a 1.6GHz G5 system successfully? PC motherboards automatically detect what CPU is plugged into them and adjust voltage, front side bus speed and multiplier to suit. It would make sense that Apple would have designed the U3 system controller so that it too automatically detected CPU settings and adjusted FSB as necessary, so that Apple engineers didn't need to separate system controllers for each CPU speed.

Has anyone heard of anyone trying this? And more to the point, does anyone have access to 2 G5 systems of 2 different CPU speeds, and be willing to try an interesting experiment? ;-) I'm not sure how difficult it would be to remove the G5 heatsink to get access to the CPU module underneath, but I have seen pictures on the web of a G5 module by itself. Any volunteers? I've only got a 1.6GHz G5 and a 1GHz 12" G4 PowerBook and I don't think that CPU transplant is going to work ;-)

[disdoph]

@Sun Baked
--------------------------------------------
Re: For the brain donors....

This is a picture of a SP 1.8 PowerMac G5 logic board.

How do I know it's not a SP 1.6 G5 Motherboard?

Because it has 8 DIMM slots.

How do I know it's not a DP Motherboard?

Because it only has 1 (yes one) white Processor Connectors. A DP machine would have two.

Without that handy dandy little socket, the average brain donor won't be able to upgrade.
------------------------------------------------

And for the talented brain donor? The contacts for the Connector are there.

;)

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by disdoph
@Sun Baked
--------------------------------------------
Re: For the brain donors....

This is a picture of a SP 1.8 PowerMac G5 logic board.

How do I know it's not a SP 1.6 G5 Motherboard?

Because it has 8 DIMM slots.

How do I know it's not a DP Motherboard?

Because it only has 1 (yes one) white Processor Connectors. A DP machine would have two.

Without that handy dandy little socket, the average brain donor won't be able to upgrade.
------------------------------------------------

And for the talented brain donor? The contacts for the Connector are there.

;) Look at his post again. See the little button on the bottom right? It's called the "Quote" button. :D

[cvgraphics]

Counterfit, thanks for bringing daylight to this mistery. I opened up my G5 1.8 and sure enough, it has no extra socket to plug in to.

[cubist]

Originally posted by thatwendigo
... DHM is a bit of a zealot for some altered reality that he's decided will bring us G5 imacs, G5 game-oriented machines, and other such frivolity before we see PM bumps. ...

First of all, OT, the single-processor machines aren't user-upgradable because the connector isn't populated, as SunBaked points out. You want to try soldering your own connector and scrounging the upgrade parts, well, you have our best wishes.

Now, certainly it is in Apple's best interests to push the top-end PowerMac line for the pro users. Whatever speed updates we get from 90nm go there first.
No question there.

But you know, Apple sells a lot more iMacs and eMacs than PowerMacs. It is the iMac, not the PowerMac, that is the "Computer for the Rest of Us." I don't think that Apple will let the iMac line lag too far behind the Pro line.

For their own sake, I hope they won't.

C'mon. Throw the dog a bone already.

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by oingoboingo
What I want to know is if you can swap the G5 CPU modules between systems. For instance, could you take a 2GHz G5 CPU module and place it in a 1.6GHz G5 system successfully? PC motherboards automatically detect what CPU is plugged into them and adjust voltage, front side bus speed and multiplier to suit. It would make sense that Apple would have designed the U3 system controller so that it too automatically detected CPU settings and adjusted FSB as necessary, so that Apple engineers didn't need to separate system controllers for each CPU speed.

Has anyone heard of anyone trying this? And more to the point, does anyone have access to 2 G5 systems of 2 different CPU speeds, and be willing to try an interesting experiment? ;-) I'm not sure how difficult it would be to remove the G5 heatsink to get access to the CPU module underneath, but I have seen pictures on the web of a G5 module by itself. Any volunteers? I've only got a 1.6GHz G5 and a 1GHz 12" G4 PowerBook and I don't think that CPU transplant is going to work ;-)

Can't be done. Not without enough tools and expertise that you find at the Apple factory.

Also, unless that 2GHz PowerMac just happen to die, why would you want to do it? Just so you can have two single 2GHz PowerMacs??? :confused:

[oingoboingo]

Originally posted by Frohickey
Can't be done. Not without enough tools and expertise that you find at the Apple factory.

Also, unless that 2GHz PowerMac just happen to die, why would you want to do it? Just so you can have two single 2GHz PowerMacs??? :confused:

To see if upgrading a G5 in the future will be a simple matter of swapping in a faster CPU module.