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MacRumors
Nov 25, 2003, 02:02 AM
Apple has kept busy with ongoing Mac OS X 10.3 updates.

A recent flurry of 10.3.2 releases have been released to Apple Developers (10.3.2 7D12 (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/11/20031118095649.shtml) and 7D15 (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/11/20031122005243.shtml)).

While its unclear when the new update is going to be released, Apple requested quick feedback on the latest build. According to one anonymous report, the updated OS X should offer:

-Improved file sharing and directory services for mixed Mac and PC networks
-More robust printing to PostScript printers
-Improved font management
-Updated Mail and Address Book applications
-New ATI and NVIDIA graphics drivers
-FileVault, Firewire 800, WebDAV and USB Printing improvements from Update 10.3.1
-Previous standalone security updates

groovebuster
Nov 25, 2003, 02:07 AM
OK, so some of the main issues I have with Panther seem to be addressed with that update. So bring it on!

groovebuster

MacsRgr8
Nov 25, 2003, 02:08 AM
Hmmm... new ATi drivers.
Just installed the Radeon utility update. Didn't this update also install new ATi (Radeon) drivers, or is there another incompatibilty coming up... ;)

ZildjianKX
Nov 25, 2003, 02:10 AM
Wow, everything I want. I'm dying for better network support, new version of mail, and new ATI drivers... bring it on!

ontheverge
Nov 25, 2003, 02:15 AM
Expose is a little choppy when I have a dozen or so windows open. I hope the new drivers make it smoother.

-------------------
iBook 700 16MB

greenstork
Nov 25, 2003, 02:23 AM
I hope they do some work on Font Book, it is in dire need of an update. That said, updates are always good news, and Font book's a great program if I could only get it to work at more than a crawl.

simX
Nov 25, 2003, 02:53 AM
Hopefully they've resloved the (admittedly kind of stupid) bug in Font Book where you can disable fonts that are absolutely required for certain applications and that caused weird problems with those apps.

For example, when you turn off Monaco (http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20031105110530578&query=Terminal+small+window), your Terminal window becomes impossibly small until you reactivate the font.

Of course, Panther seemed to be pretty solid for a .0 release, at least for me. I'm glad that I didn't have any FireWire hard disk problems before the 10.3.1 update came out.

altair
Nov 25, 2003, 03:03 AM
Originally posted by ontheverge
Expose is a little choppy when I have a dozen or so windows open. I hope the new drivers make it smoother.

-------------------
iBook 700 16MB

How much ram do you have? i can open a bazillion windows and click the expose buttons tons of times and it never even slows down. insanely amazing, imo

I have a tibook 1ghz, with 1gig of ram.

Altair

sethypoo
Nov 25, 2003, 03:09 AM
I just wonder if this will fix File Vault so I can actually add songs to my iTunes library without it freaking out.

New Expose drivers would be cool.:p

ontheverge
Nov 25, 2003, 03:23 AM
Originally posted by altair
How much ram do you have? i can open a bazillion windows and click the expose buttons tons of times and it never even slows down. insanely amazing, imo

I have a tibook 1ghz, with 1gig of ram.

Altair

I have 16MB VRAM, Radeon 7500.

AT71
Nov 25, 2003, 03:25 AM
So, is the Fax issue fixed?

Sometimes it faxes and sometimes it doesn't. Sometime it receives fax and sometimes it doesn't.

I'm confused.

ITR 81
Nov 25, 2003, 03:33 AM
Well given that this is the first time they offered Fax and a Font app. with the OS, I think they did pretty good job because it could always been worse.

Though there is one thing I want and thats an update to Safari because it does crash a good bit and if they could only get it to almost never crash I'll be a happy camper.

But hell it took IE up to 5.2 to just get it stable but it still runs slow as hell. So I think Apple did good job for a browser only in it's first update. Come on 1.2!!!

alamar
Nov 25, 2003, 03:35 AM
I wish apple would leave the apps alone for a while, there are plenty of places to get much more full featured replacement, and these apps do their jobs fine....lets fix the OS for now, and continue to refine it. IMHO. :)

Over upgraded apps result in Microsoft Word type problems of having a word processor designed for people who can't type! Auto numbering and outlining pisses me off to no extent! (And I don't like turning them off on every computer I visit!) Even Adobe is guilty of this. The iApps should do their job, and little else. Again: IMHO ;)

Its nice to have upgraded Apps, but really, what is wrong with Mail? :) :D

edited for content

coolfactor
Nov 25, 2003, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by ITR 81
Though there is one thing I want and thats an update to Safari because it does crash a good bit and if they could only get it to almost never crash I'll be a happy camper.

Safari very rarely crashes for me. I had problems when I installed about 100 fonts, and it didn't like some of the invalid files. Disabling the fonts fixed that problem, but as for Safari crashing.. almost never, so I can't see that an update would fix your problem.. has to be something else you've installed.

I definitely need to increase my 256MB RAM because I find 10.3.1 to be slow when switching apps, especially iTunes with 3000+ songs. I hope this is addressed in 10.3.2.

coolfactor
Nov 25, 2003, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by alamar
I wish apple would leave the apps alone for a while, there are plenty of places to get much more full featured replacement, and these apps do their jobs fine....lets fix the OS for now, and continue to refine it. IMHO. :)

Apple has different teams of people working on different aspects of the OS and applications. That's why Mail and iPhoto have some very odd approaches to interface design. The Mail Import Assistant in Mail.app is just silly, and the Keywords feature in iPhoto definitely has room for improvement.

alamar
Nov 25, 2003, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by simX
Hopefully they've resloved the (admittedly kind of stupid) bug in Font Book where you can disable fonts that are absolutely required for certain applications and that caused weird problems with those apps.

For example, when you turn off Monaco (http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20031105110530578&query=Terminal+small+window), your Terminal window becomes impossibly small until you reactivate the font.

Of course, Panther seemed to be pretty solid for a .0 release, at least for me. I'm glad that I didn't have any FireWire hard disk problems before the 10.3.1 update came out.

You could always change the font Terminal uses. I'm not sure if this is a bug any more than slamming your finger in a car door is :) ;)

alamar
Nov 25, 2003, 03:56 AM
Originally posted by coolfactor
Apple has different teams of people working on different aspects of the OS and applications. That's why Mail and iPhoto have some very odd approaches to interface design. The Mail Import Assistant in Mail.app is just silly, and the Keywords feature in iPhoto definitely has room for improvement.

I assume these apps are not for power users....spare iChat. iChat is really the one they should work on I think. Address book could also use some grouping features, but it doesn't need much more...iPhoto simply needs to be designed, its wacky....then again maybe its just me....

At any rate, I would rather that when they say the OS has X number of upgrades, that Mail Application upgrades are listed. Like you said, different teams...and really why should only the 10.3 crowd get the better Mail app? I'd pay for the threads feature, but can't afford 10.3 yet.

If anyone who can do it is listening, I'd like to be able to play an entire folder of music without launching iTunes.

Trimix
Nov 25, 2003, 03:57 AM
I am a heavy user of Entourage. Since the installation of PANTHER, I have to close each individual MS Program (Word, Excel and Entourage) before I can use the Shut down Command - otherwise Entourage will keep the computer from switching off.
Has that happened to you too ?
Safari has been good, some pages wont open and I have to use IE - but apart from that no complaints.
The Norton Fire Wall comes on sporadically, sometimes it does not load and I get a message it hasn't loaded.

Have you had similar problems ?

oliverbothwell
Nov 25, 2003, 04:09 AM
Originally posted by ITR 81
Well given that this is the first time they offered Fax and a Font app. with the OS, I think they did pretty good job because it could always been worse.

Though there is one thing I want and thats an update to Safari because it does crash a good bit and if they could only get it to almost never crash I'll be a happy camper.

But hell it took IE up to 5.2 to just get it stable but it still runs slow as hell. So I think Apple did good job for a browser only in it's first update. Come on 1.2!!!

Yeah but why can't they check their products for this before they release them. Isn't it possible to have a .0 which is secure and fully working? It's frustrating and puts me off upgrading.

1TB
Nov 25, 2003, 04:24 AM
Does anyone know what specific printing improvements have been made?

Under OS 9, it was easy for developers to let their programs specify paper trays from within their programs (and thus bypassing the OSes dialogues; handy for printing 2 or more jobs to 2 or more paper types with the click of one button).

Since OS X, this functionality has been lost (at least to the developers of my programs).

Any insight as to why or when this functionality may return?

splashman
Nov 25, 2003, 04:55 AM
I keep my old 9600 around as a rendering machine, and it's running 8.6. Under previous releases of X (including Jaguar), I had no problem using the "Connect" feature to link up via Appletalk and transfer files from my G4.

Under Panther (10.3.1), clicking on "Network" in a finder window shows my wife's iBook, but not my 9600. From the 9600, I can connect to the G4 via the Chooser, but not the other way around.

When I boot up my G4 in 10.2.8 from my other drive, I can connect to the 9600 just fine. Reboot to 10.3.1, and no-can-see-um.

Anybody else having this kind of problem?

regald
Nov 25, 2003, 05:32 AM
To browse AT-only servers on the network with Panther, you need to activate "AppleTalk" in /Application/Utilities/Directory Services - other than Jaguar, this is off by default in Panther.

:)

splashman
Nov 25, 2003, 05:58 AM
Originally posted by regald
To browse AT-only servers on the network with Panther, you need to activate "AppleTalk" in /Application/Utilities/Directory Services - other than Jaguar, this is off by default in Panther.

:)

Thanks! I never would have found that one. I had activated AT via the Network pref. panel, and I never would have guessed there was another setting in another app that could override it.

I just double-checked -- Mac Help sure doesn't make this "feature" easy to find. Even the help document titled "The computer I want to connect to doesn't appear in the Network browser" doesn't reference this issue. Now that's helpful, eh?

(BTW, the utility is called "Directory Access".)

rt_brained
Nov 25, 2003, 06:55 AM
Has anyone had problems with FontBook and Suitcase (10 or X1) running at the same time?

I still prefer some of the options available in Suitcase, but I'm concerned that FontBook automatically loads its own sets, thereby creating issues with Suitcase.

Can the two apps play nice together?

pkscout
Nov 25, 2003, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by alamar
I wish apple would leave the apps alone for a while, there are plenty of places to get much more full featured replacement, and these apps do their jobs fine....lets fix the OS for now, and continue to refine it. IMHO. :)


Except that there are bugs in mail and address book that are kind of problems. For instance, if you have an IMAP account and all your boxes are in your inbox, you can't add a rule that moves mail to another of the boxes unless you create a dummy POP account *and* have the IMAP folder open in the tray.

In address book when you drag a contact from an LDAP server to your contacts, *all* your other contacts disappear. The good news it's just a display issue, as quitting and relaunching address book brings all your contacts (plus the one you imported) back.

Just a couple of things worth fixing. :D

Aeolius
Nov 25, 2003, 07:25 AM
With 10.3.1, Mail crashes constantly and I can no longer copy/paste between apps like Word and iChat (neither problem was present with 10.3) . I'm hoping 10.3.2 addresses both of these issues.

wordmunger
Nov 25, 2003, 08:13 AM
Aeolius, it looks like you just need to reinstall. That shouldn't be happening.

awulf
Nov 25, 2003, 08:26 AM
I have problems with Safarion my computer, when ever I try to lauch it, it immediatly crashes, so I am using Camino at the moment. (It was upgraded from 10.2).

I really hope they will fix the Active Directory bug where I can't connect any 10.3 macs in our school to the Active Directory network (wont bind).

yoman
Nov 25, 2003, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by ITR 81

Though there is one thing I want and thats an update to Safari because it does crash a good bit and if they could only get it to almost never crash I'll be a happy camper.
Come on 1.2!!!

I have noticed this same problem when i try to acess media on the web( streaming video, audio, etc...)I have noticed this has happened to two other users as well. So it could be a hardware problem or some third party RAM we may be all using or who knows. Hopefully it's just a small problem that could be fixed for our comptuters.

cizzino
Nov 25, 2003, 08:47 AM
also it would be nice if I could run panther on my lombard which *IS* supported, instead of getting screen garbling and crashes if I try to use my 512 of RAM.

1macker1
Nov 25, 2003, 08:51 AM
I guess i'll be waiting another month before I upgrade to Panther. Too many problems, not saying that I would see any of these, but it's just not worth the risk. I'll stick with the stable Jaguar.:)

With all these problems, it reminds me when I had to upgrade my other computer to XP from 98. Seems like going from 10.2 to 10.3 would be much easier.

Powerbook G5
Nov 25, 2003, 08:54 AM
Panther runs flawlessly on my Lombard series PowerBook (400 MHz/192 megs RAM). As far as Safari or Mail crashing, that has never happened to me. I was looking at the Apple support forums just to see what problems others are having and most people report that Safari has been crashing for many due to bad fonts being installed, so once the bad fonts are disabled, Safari appears to be perfectly stable for them. It is worth checking out. Everything for me seems to be working quite well, but I did a clean install because I didn't want any issues involving an upgrade from Jaguar.

DarkPhoenixCA
Nov 25, 2003, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by coolfactor
Safari very rarely crashes for me. I had problems when I installed about 100 fonts, and it didn't like some of the invalid files. Disabling the fonts fixed that problem, but as for Safari crashing.. almost never, so I can't see that an update would fix your problem.. has to be something else you've installed.

I definitely need to increase my 256MB RAM because I find 10.3.1 to be slow when switching apps, especially iTunes with 3000+ songs. I hope this is addressed in 10.3.2.

Safar has been one of most stable OS X apps for me, even while in beta. The one problem I am continuing to have with it is printing: many pages that print fine in IE are impossibly small when printed from Safari. I haven't had a chance to call AppleCare yet, t I was wondering if anyone else experiences this.

reckless_0001
Nov 25, 2003, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by splashman
I keep my old 9600 around as a rendering machine, and it's running 8.6. Under previous releases of X (including Jaguar), I had no problem using the "Connect" feature to link up via Appletalk and transfer files from my G4.

Under Panther (10.3.1), clicking on "Network" in a finder window shows my wife's iBook, but not my 9600. From the 9600, I can connect to the G4 via the Chooser, but not the other way around.

When I boot up my G4 in 10.2.8 from my other drive, I can connect to the 9600 just fine. Reboot to 10.3.1, and no-can-see-um.

Anybody else having this kind of problem?

Another Solution...

Try turning going to your 9600 and Control Panels->Sharing(or)File Sharing->and click Allow to connect over TCP/IP

Should fix problem.

soosy
Nov 25, 2003, 09:15 AM
I still can't browse any of the windows shares at work that I could see under Jag. I have to remember each share name individually! I've played a bit with the Directory Access app with no success. How ridiculous!

I also think the network browse interface is appalling. The difficulty in knowing where to "disconnect" as well as a lack of mount point on the desktop are two of the biggest problems. I was really hoping Panther was going to clean up the network GUI.. not make an even bigger mess of it!

Rant Over. I still love my Mac. :D

akac
Nov 25, 2003, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by pkscout
Except that there are bugs in mail and address book that are kind of problems. For instance, if you have an IMAP account and all your boxes are in your inbox, you can't add a rule that moves mail to another of the boxes unless you create a dummy POP account *and* have the IMAP folder open in the tray.


I don't have that issue. I have only an IMAP account with all my mailboxes under the Inbox and my rules work great.

MacTech
Nov 25, 2003, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by soosy
I still can't browse any of the windows shares at work that I could see under Jag. I have to remember each share name individually! I've played a bit with the Directory Access app with no success. How ridiculous!

I also think the network browse interface is appalling. The difficulty in knowing where to "disconnect" as well as a lack of mount point on the desktop are two of the biggest problems. I was really hoping Panther was going to clean up the network GUI.. not make an even bigger mess of it!

Rant Over. I still love my Mac. :D

I have AD on Windows 2000 server, running a 3rd party AFP/IP server and connect without any problems. I can also connect with SMB if I want.
If you are using Win2003 server there is a setting that is on by default which keeps macs from authenticating. Go to macwindows.com for more info.
Once you manage to connect, create aliases to the shares and place them in the Finder toolbar or sidebar. Works great for me.

Photorun
Nov 25, 2003, 09:46 AM
First off, everyone who writes in a reply that goes something like "Well I've never had a problem with Safari so you must be stupid" take a minute before you hit that reply button and think "can I help my fellow Mac user with a valid suggestion?" and if the answer is no, don't hit reply. Maybe not everyone is as incredibly lucky with the pinnicle of stability your machine your so proud of. Instead of calling other people to blame (which they're not) write Apple an email about how well your system runs under 10.3 and see if they'll feature you in an ad.

/rant

Apple hears from me a lot... but it's from the Submit Bug button that pops up from Safari twice and Font Book three times. I'd like them to rectify whatever the heck is causing that and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I highly doubt it's something to do with my G5 2.0, the two gigs of RAM, or the user. The good news is Apple knows about these things and it appears is working on them.

willmg
Nov 25, 2003, 09:55 AM
Hopefully this fixes some graphics issues in 3D games as well, I tried out tiger woods 2003 last night on my PB 1.25 and it has some serious artifacts.

mainstreetmark
Nov 25, 2003, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by oliverbothwell
Yeah but why can't they check their products for this before they release them. Isn't it possible to have a .0 which is secure and fully working? It's frustrating and puts me off upgrading.

No.

I've seen this said a number of times about a number of apps out of Apple and others. This is simply the 'way things are' in the world of software development, and especially OS development. Apple is one of the best at this because it's installed set of hardware is fairly consistent, but it's still not a constant. Apple can't possibly know, for example, all the different kinds of Windows networks in-work today. Just ask the Samba team about it.

So, the best any software manufacturer can hope for in a major release is that it works on "the vast majority" of it's user's machines, and since it doesn't have access to an infinite amount of test machines, it will inevitably rely on it's own customers to find some bugs.

Why can't they check their products before release? I'm sure you don't honestly believe that they don't. This entire thread is about how 10.3.2 is currently being tested by testers right now! Hopefully this upgrade will fix the small number of bugs that slipped through the extensive beta test program of Panther.

Why would it put anyone off from upgrading? Panther's been out for a month, and already a large amount of bugs have been identified and fixed (10.3.1) and now we're waiting for the second round!

Go back to Windows to be reminded of how frustrating things can really be.

JJTiger1
Nov 25, 2003, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by Photorun
First off, everyone who writes in a reply that goes something like "Well I've never had a problem with Safari so you must be stupid" take a minute before you hit that reply button and think "can I help my fellow Mac user with a valid suggestion?"
{snippage}

This should help:
1. You may have an old Jaguar preference interferring with Panther:
trash: com.apple.quicktime.plugin.preferences.plist

2. You may need to run the latest Panther Cache Cleaner:
Click the "Caches" tab, click button Deep Cleaning, checkmark all, click the "Clean" button.

You will see several pop-ups. click the yes/okay's.

Reboot. All is well .. for a while.
=-=
Attitude adjustment for the non-helpful people: swift kick to the seat of your pants because you did not offer any help.

Get off the keyboard.

Longey Nowze
Nov 25, 2003, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by JJTiger1
This should help:
1. You may have an old Jaguar preference interferring with Panther:
trash: com.apple.quicktime.plugin.preferences.plist

2. You may need to run the latest Panther Cache Cleaner:
Click the "Caches" tab, click button Deep Cleaning, checkmark all, click the "Clean" button.

You will see several pop-ups. click the yes/okay's.

Reboot. All is well .. for a while.
=-=
Attitude adjustment for the non-helpful people: swift kick to the seat of your pants because you did not offer any help.

Get off the keyboard.

you took the words right out of my mouth err... finger tips :P

anyway what I usually do when i have a problem with an app, is I do a search for that app in my HD, then I find the files, prefs and other stuff like caches, then i just dump them or actually what I do is is just move them to a folder i made YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL DOING THIS YOU DON'T WANT TO DELETE SOMETHING IMPORTANT REMEMBER WHAT YOU DELETED AND WHETE IT WAS CUZ YOU MAY WANT TO RETURN IT! after I do that I launch the app, then I take the files one by one and return them in place of the newly created ones, I keep re-launching the app every time I put back a file and when it crashes I'll know that it's the last file I put back! I do this to know what exactly is causing the problem :D

all this reminds me of OS 9 and extensions, but I don't this in X as much as used in 9, actually i rarely do it, last time was with IE :P

THANK YOU
MaT

1macker1
Nov 25, 2003, 10:31 AM
They seem to be finding more and more bugs.
Originally posted by mainstreetmark
No.
Why would it put anyone off from upgrading? Panther's been out for a month, and already a large amount of bugs have been identified and fixed (10.3.1) and now we're waiting for the second round!

Go back to Windows to be reminded of how frustrating things can really be.

chickengrease16
Nov 25, 2003, 10:31 AM
i hope they fix the annoying problem i've been having with mail's usability.

normally you're supposed to be able to click inside of the preview pane and then you can use the up/down arrow keys to navigate up and down the email. yeah, with the new version of mail its ONLY if you click in the header section of the preview pane. if you dont and you press up/down, it moves up and down in the email list and it changes emails. thats not how it's supposed to be. i submitted a usability bug report. thats my biggest annoyance with panther thus far.

expose works fine for me, but then again i've got the mobile radeon 9000 with 64MB video memory with a 1GHz G4 and 768MB RAM. i love when you hold down shift and press one of the expose keys, and it goes really slow :D

illumin8
Nov 25, 2003, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by coolfactor
I definitely need to increase my 256MB RAM because I find 10.3.1 to be slow when switching apps, especially iTunes with 3000+ songs. I hope this is addressed in 10.3.2.
Haha... Excuse me while I laugh. Yes, I'm sure Apple is very much interested in making Panther so small that all the users with only 256 MB or even 128 MB of memory can run at a good speed. While we're at it, let's go back to System 9.2 when everything was much faster and took so much less memory.
</sarcasm>

If you're trying to multitask and have multiple iApps open with only 256 MB of RAM, how can you be surprised that it's slow and expect Apple to fix it? They can't make the programs smaller without taking out features, so, get over it.

Really, a 256 MB stick of memory nowadays costs a whopping $31. If you can afford the $129 price for Panther, why not fork out an extra $31 just to get a decent amount of memory?

scat999999
Nov 25, 2003, 10:45 AM
You can't seem to use emulation printing with Panther like you can with Jaguar. The printer has to be set up as the dedicated printer, which means you have to quit VPC to restore the printer to the Mac side of things.
I'd love to upgrade my wife's eMac to Panther, but she uses VPC too often to have to quit out every time she wants to print something from the Mac platform.

jeffmc425
Nov 25, 2003, 10:48 AM
Ever since Panther, I cannot see FW drives hooked to my iMac on the other Macs on the network. Jaguar, they were all there. THis got anoying. :)

jeffmc425
Nov 25, 2003, 10:49 AM
And yes, the AFP server is on! ;)

SiliconAddict
Nov 25, 2003, 10:49 AM
I voted negative because you should NOT need this many fixes so soon after a release. Even Microsoft didnít have this many released after XP came out (They more then made up for that in the trickle effect since then what? 30+ updates? but in 90% of those updates they are security related not functionality related.)
Said it before. Will say it again. Panther smells of being rushed to market for the X-Mas season. And they are doing post release cleanup at this point. Iíll give Apple credit for jumping on top of these problems immediately but they shouldnít have been there to begin with. No one should expect a perfect release but some of the glitches have been complete show stoppers. FW hard drives and Filevault to name a couple.

gopher
Nov 25, 2003, 10:50 AM
Firewire 800 improvements are all nice and good, but until they fix Firewire 400 as well, there are going to be people I just am not going to recommend to upgrade to Panther.

gopher
Nov 25, 2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by Macrumors
Apple has kept busy with ongoing Mac OS X 10.3 updates.

A recent flurry of 10.3.2 releases have been released to Apple Developers (10.3.2 7D12 (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/11/20031118095649.shtml) and 7D15 (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/11/20031122005243.shtml)).

While its unclear when the new update is going to be released, Apple requested quick feedback on the latest build. According to one anonymous report, the updated OS X should offer:

-Improved file sharing and directory services for mixed Mac and PC networks
-More robust printing to PostScript printers
-Improved font management
-Updated Mail and Address Book applications
-New ATI and NVIDIA graphics drivers
-FileVault, Firewire 800, WebDAV and USB Printing improvements from Update 10.3.1
-Previous standalone security updates

Based on this feature set, while good, it doesn't look like those with Firewire 400 problems are going to have their problem fixed.

McToast
Nov 25, 2003, 10:59 AM
...and when are they going to acknowledge and fix the problem with QPS FireWire CDRW drives with the SW-208B mechanism? System Profiler says "Disc Burning: Apple Supported" and iTunes recognizes the drive, but neither iTunes nor burning from the finder works! Only Toast works! :mad:

Everyone who has this drive has this problem, and it's always worked until Panther!

iPC
Nov 25, 2003, 11:18 AM
Needs an update fast! Not only do I still have the random crashing problem http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47109, but I still can't use it to fill out forms at www.chase.com (one of my banks). I have to use IE to fill out any of the forms there... (specific proble is spacing - SSN blocks are 3-2-4 characters, but Safari only inputs 2-1-3 characters!)

fBaran
Nov 25, 2003, 11:19 AM
Does any body know if they're gonna supprt HP OfficeJet v40? The open source drivers don't work :(

kherdin
Nov 25, 2003, 11:21 AM
Hopefully, all of you who are talking about bugs you've experienced have reported them to Apple. How else are you expecting them to fix these?

1macker1
Nov 25, 2003, 11:45 AM
By getting the guys whom they PAY to test the software to report the bugs.
Originally posted by kherdin
Hopefully, all of you who are talking about bugs you've experienced have reported them to Apple. How else are you expecting them to fix these?

Powerbook G5
Nov 25, 2003, 12:36 PM
But those people whom they pay to find these issues can't possibly test on as wide of range of hardware/software combinations as the millions of OS X users out there have, so until the users who have a certain combination of software and hardware send in bug reports to show Apple that there is an issue that may otherwise not be found or tested by the Beta team, there won't be a way that Apple hears of these issues.

1macker1
Nov 25, 2003, 01:13 PM
I work in the Engineering field, as yeah, there are real world applications that we can't test in our controlled enviroment. But looking at some of the complaints, it see a more that a few that should have been caught.

ryan
Nov 25, 2003, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by coolfactor
Apple has different teams of people working on different aspects of the OS and applications. That's why Mail and iPhoto have some very odd approaches to interface design. ... While Apple does have different teams of developers working on different apps they all follow this (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/index.html) .

splashman
Nov 25, 2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Photorun
First off, everyone who writes in a reply that goes something like "Well I've never had a problem with Safari so you must be stupid" take a minute before you hit that reply button and think "can I help my fellow Mac user with a valid suggestion?" and if the answer is no, don't hit reply. Maybe not everyone is as incredibly lucky with the pinnicle of stability your machine your so proud of. Instead of calling other people to blame (which they're not) write Apple an email about how well your system runs under 10.3 and see if they'll feature you in an ad.

How about canning the sarcasm? While you're at it, why don't you suggest to everyone that they not assume that every problem they're having is Apple's fault? Count up the number of posts in this thread that sound something like this: "[X] application crashes a lot. Why doesn't Apple fix it?" Well, of course, it MUST be Apple's problem. It COULDN'T be due to anything the user did.

I'm not suggesting the users are definitely at fault. I'd just like to see a few more questions asked, and a few less assumptions made.

mcsjgs
Nov 25, 2003, 02:49 PM
I think that there is a lot of merit in having users as beta testers. Not developers, not engineers, just plain users. If you build in a bug reporter to the beta, you will find a lot of very useful information on a wider variety of platforms and more real world issues coming back to the development team. I cannot help but think that the Firewire and File Vault problems would have been caught this way.

rdowns
Nov 25, 2003, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by iPC
Needs an update fast! Not only do I still have the random crashing problem http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47109, but I still can't use it to fill out forms at www.chase.com (one of my banks). I have to use IE to fill out any of the forms there... (specific proble is spacing - SSN blocks are 3-2-4 characters, but Safari only inputs 2-1-3 characters!)

Strange, Safari works better for me on chase.com than IE ever did.

mcsjgs
Nov 25, 2003, 05:45 PM
Based on the release date (11/22) of the 15 build and Apple's comments about a one week turnaround, it looks like the first week of December for 10.3.2 if there are no problems. Just a guesstimate.

WM.
Nov 25, 2003, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by mcsjgs
I think that there is a lot of merit in having users as beta testers. Not developers, not engineers, just plain users. If you build in a bug reporter to the beta [...]
It's called the AppleSeed program, and last time I checked they weren't looking for new participants.

But it does exist.

FWIW
WM

mcsjgs
Nov 25, 2003, 06:26 PM
I hate to bring up the evil empire, but MSFT does a lot of beta testing with just users, although you would not know it from some of the glitches in security. But it does pay off in the plug and play part of their OS.

WM.
Nov 25, 2003, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
I voted negative because you should NOT need this many fixes so soon after a release. Even Microsoft didnít have this many released after XP came out (They more then made up for that in the trickle effect since then what? 30+ updates? but in 90% of those updates they are security related not functionality related.)
Said it before. Will say it again. Panther smells of being rushed to market for the X-Mas season. And they are doing post release cleanup at this point. Iíll give Apple credit for jumping on top of these problems immediately but they shouldnít have been there to begin with. No one should expect a perfect release but some of the glitches have been complete show stoppers. FW hard drives and Filevault to name a couple.
I would go so far as to say that Jaguar 10.2 had more glaring bugs than Panther 10.3 does.

You say Apple should not need this many fixes so soon. It looks like 10.3.1 was not a planned release, so 10.3.2 will really be the first Panther update. It will be coming about six weeks after Panther's release into the wild. Well, guess what? 10.2.1 was released about six weeks after Jaguar came out, and (AFAICT and IIRC) it actually had more bugfixes than 10.3.2 will. Does that mean that Jaguar was a horrible release? No!! But it did take a while for many of the bugs to be squashed. Just like it will with Panther, just like it did with XP, and just like it will with Longhorn.

I think it's very unfair to a) expect perfect releases from OS developers, and then when they don't deliver on that, b) vote negative on MR stories about the updates that fix the highest-priority bugs.

Which reminds me: lest there be any doubt, 10.3.2 WILL NOT fix every Panther bug, and will almost certainly introduce some of its own. Just like with every other software update ever.

Finally, to all the other whiners ;) in this thread, if there's a bug that really annoys you, first read (Safari developer) Dave Hyatt's most recent blog entries, and then submit a report to Apple, via the built-in mechanisms, www.apple.com/macosx/feedback, or (for ADC members, which I am not) bugreporter.apple.com or something like that.

WM

mcsjgs
Nov 25, 2003, 06:35 PM
You raise an excellent point in bug reporting. I've sent some in, and I bet Apple is deluged with them, but that is the way to go. And ADC offers a free signup with limited access, but one point of access is the bug reporter at:

ADC Bug Report Link (https://bugreport.apple.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/RadarWeb)

dloomer
Nov 25, 2003, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by coolfactor
Safari very rarely crashes for me. ... I can't see that an update would fix your problem.. has to be something else you've installed.

Safari almost never crashes for me, either. However, lately whenever I see a mention of Panther updates on some message board or other, there's always at least one person who chimes in about the crashing. So, I think there's an issue somewhere. Maybe to do with how Panther was installed?

FWIW, mine was a clean install ... fresh brand new hard drive and everything ... no trace of Jaguar anywhere.

uberman42
Nov 25, 2003, 06:51 PM
is it just me- or is 10.3 disappointing in the standpoint of bugs. I have been using OS X since the slow as molasses 10.0, but that was pretty rock solid compared to this. I had done two erase and installs and both times (.3 and .3.1) I have had glitches. I decided to go back to 10.2.8 I'll wait till 10.3.7 is out before I install this again on my PBook 12" rev A. And thanks for the bug report link mcsjgs:o :( :o :(

Powerbook G5
Nov 25, 2003, 06:54 PM
As I mentioned previously, there have been postings by Apple on their discussion boards mentioning that Safari and Mail have known stability issues due to outside fonts that are corrupt not being handled gracefully by the programs, resulting in a crash, so if anyone who is experiencing these frequent crashes with Safari has added fonts, I'd suggest disabling them to see if it helps.

alamar
Nov 25, 2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Longey Nowze
you took the words right out of my mouth err... finger tips :P

anyway what I usually do when i have a problem with an app, is I do a search for that app in my HD, then I find the files, prefs and other stuff like caches, then i just dump them or actually what I do is is just move them to a folder i made YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL DOING THIS YOU DON'T WANT TO DELETE SOMETHING IMPORTANT REMEMBER WHAT YOU DELETED AND WHETE IT WAS CUZ YOU MAY WANT TO RETURN IT! snipTHANK YOU
MaT

If you do something like this be sure you know how to launch into single user mode, mount your HD as readable, and move files back to where they go, incase you break the OS...witch I have done on occasion, you know for kicks.....

Get comfortable with unix at osxfaq.com before you start moving files that you don't know what they are. The message boards there have loads of info on how to fix OSX, and after almost 2 of trouble free computing I had to track it down because of a weird problem I was having. its a good site and worth looking through. I like OSX, its typically stable, and easy to repair. Sadly, its a bit more technical than OS9, and when problems do occur (much less often) it can take a bit of command line savvy to fix them. Its a good idea to know about permissions, file moving, and how to show (and hide again) invisibles. Just be very careful. ;)

WM.
Nov 25, 2003, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by mcsjgs
I hate to bring up the evil empire, but MSFT does a lot of beta testing with just users, although you would not know it from some of the glitches in security. But it does pay off in the plug and play part of their OS.
Well, yes. But it depends on how you define "a lot". Is it based on marketshare? R&D budget? Number of other beta testers? Price per release*? (All of which Apple has much, much less of than Microsoft does.)

Not to mention that Apple puts out major, feature-adding OS releases about five times more often than Microsoft. I believe Longhorn's beta testing program will be well over a year. Do you really think Apple could do the same thing with each 10.x release? Probably not.

What's more, considering the vastly fewer hardware configurations OS X has to deal with as compared to XPee, you could argue that Apple can justify even fewer non-developer/-engineer beta testers than would be accounted for by the four factors listed above (budget, marketshare, other testers, price--which I suppose are all interrelated anyway).

I guess what it boils down to is this: I'm pretty happy with the way OS X's development is going. I don't think I could suffer through four or five years of the same basic OS release, and I'm very willing to pay for the privilege of major annual releases--both financially and in terms of the bugs I'll have to put up with until 10.x.x fixes them. (And I'm experiencing very, very few of them in Panther; printing in Times seems pretty weird, but hopefully 10.3.2 will fix that :) ).

BTW, thanks for the corrected ADC bug reporting link.

WM

*What I mean here is, Microsoft charges like $200 for each major upgrade (e.g. XP Pro)--about 50% more than Apple does for an annual 10.x release. So there are more testing resources for each copy, and MS sells way more copies. This is probably a redundant point (not too different from R&D budget), but whatever. :)

Finally, I'm pretty sure Apple sold about a million copies of Jaguar, presumably most of them at about $129. (Actually, that could be an interesting question--how do they figure in the family packs [five licenses for $199] and the educational sales [$69 to individuals, and less to institutions; zero for Jaguar for Teachers participants]? Plus, considering that Amazon sells Panther for about $100, the wholesale cost must be way less. But I digress.) Now, AFAIK software has a very low marginal cost, so you're basically paying for R&D with your $129. Well, guess what? Apple's R&D budget was about $500 million last year, and about 25% of that was for OS development (IIRC--if you're less lazy than me you can check this out :) ). That works out to about $120-130 million in OS R&D!!! With somewhere around (perhaps) $100-130 million in revenue! This is not where their profits are coming from!!

And if they spent more money on beta testing (although AppleSeed-type programs probably don't cost too much), they'd make even less, if anything.

biaachmonkie
Nov 25, 2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by gopher
Firewire 800 improvements are all nice and good, but until they fix Firewire 400 as well, there are going to be people I just am not going to recommend to upgrade to Panther.

What problems do you have with FW400? I'm using a TiBook with 2 FW400 drives (Hard drives, and attach a DVD-R as well) with no problems. What is the issue?

cristiana
Nov 25, 2003, 07:33 PM
I hope they fix this expose bug. I run dual monitors. If I have a window which has more than 50% of it below the screen, and then, hit the all windows hey. The windows fly into the corner, and are only a few pixels tall. The top of the image is the before, and the bottom is the after i hit the all windows key.

jimsowden
Nov 25, 2003, 08:14 PM
remember the paragraph on the panther site abou saving your user file on an ipod and then logging onto it on any other computer? http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/10/20031008183849.shtml I hope that surfaces in 10.3.3 or so. I would really like that. Either that or a newton ipod. Either would be good.

hamishb
Nov 25, 2003, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by willmg
Hopefully this fixes some graphics issues in 3D games as well, I tried out tiger woods 2003 last night on my PB 1.25 and it has some serious artifacts.

Did you grab the patch for Tiger Woods 2003 released a week or so ago?

Not sure it will fix it, but grab it anyway.

splashman
Nov 25, 2003, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by cristiana
I hope they fix this expose bug. I run dual monitors. If I have a window which has more than 50% of it below the screen, and then, hit the all windows hey. The windows fly into the corner, and are only a few pixels tall. The top of the image is the before, and the bottom is the after i hit the all windows key.

Interesting! I hadn't noticed this before, but you're right, that's what happens! (Actually, I don't even get a "few pixels tall" -- they completely disappear.)

Yeesh, you'd sure think Apple and the beta testers could have caught this one!

Powerbook G5
Nov 25, 2003, 08:59 PM
Does it have to be dual monitors? I tried putting two Safari windows off the bottom of the screen like described, but activating "all windows" mode of Exposť worked like it should have.

splashman
Nov 25, 2003, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by Powerbook G5
Does it have to be dual monitors? I tried putting two Safari windows off the bottom of the screen like described, but activating "all windows" mode of Exposť worked like it should have.

Forgot to mention -- I'm running a dual-monitor setup as well (two 19" LCDs). So perhaps it is a dual-monitor problem only.

To be more specific about the problem, if more than 50% of a window is off-screen (either to the left, right, or bottom), when you press an Exposť key (F9 or F10), the window zooms to the upper left of the left monitor, at the same time scaling down to nothing, so it is essentially invisible.

To be even more specific, my reference to "left, right, or bottom" refers to the virtual monitor space (as if the 2 screens were just one big monitor). So the problem I'm describing doesn't occur when the window is split between the two monitors. It only occurs when the window is off to the left of the left monitor, off to the right of the right monitor, or off the bottom of either.

sososowhat
Nov 25, 2003, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by uberman42
I decided to go back to 10.2.8 I'll wait till 10.3.7 is out before I install this again on my PBook 12" rev A. And thanks for the bug report link mcsjgs:o :( :o :(
I hope you remembered to go to 10.2.8(b) not 10.2.8(a). :( :o :)

Mac Kiwi
Nov 26, 2003, 03:59 AM
Heres hoping the new drivers seriously improve our Open GL abilities.




This dual monitor bug is a pain,I have 2 NEC 19 inch LCDs on their way to me.

Trimix
Nov 26, 2003, 05:13 AM
Originally posted by kherdin
Hopefully, all of you who are talking about bugs you've experienced have reported them to Apple. How else are you expecting them to fix these?

Mea culpa

I rather bitch here and hope that someone from Apple is reading this.
:p

Trimix
Nov 26, 2003, 05:22 AM
Originally posted by splashman
How about canning the sarcasm? While you're at it, why don't you suggest to everyone that they not assume that every problem they're having is Apple's fault? Count up the number of posts in this thread that sound something like this: "[X] application crashes a lot. Why doesn't Apple fix it?" Well, of course, it MUST be Apple's problem. It COULDN'T be due to anything the user did.

I'm not suggesting the users are definitely at fault. I'd just like to see a few more questions asked, and a few less assumptions made.

sorry splashman i must disagree a tad
if my system runs perfectly, which it did before the installation of PANTHER, then the last one who made the changes, aka Apple, must get the blame by default.
I for one cannot take the blame as i was just the disc jockey, who switched between installation disc one and two.
The guys who made the other programs such as MS sadly cannot be blamed either as their programs ran without a glitch before. So in a way, yes it is Apple's problem - they introduced an extension to the OS, received my money for it and i feel i can demand that it works at least as well as before and definitely not worse

encro
Nov 26, 2003, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by alamar
Address book could also use some grouping features, but it doesn't need much more...

I disagree with you as Address Book could do with some serious improvement:

1. A method to automatically transfer Birthday and Aniversary fields to iCal (without using iCal Birthday Shifter)

2. A method of storage/retrieval of sent SMS messages. Currently all sent messages go to >dev/null with no verification the message was actually sent.

3. Long SMS Message implementation.

4. SMS Smilies (the same ones in iCal) - optional

5. Automatic Linking of Photo's to Names on a syncronised Phone directory via iSync. This might not be possible with current SymbianOS or Sony-Ericsson phones, I'm not sure.

splashman
Nov 26, 2003, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by Trimix
sorry splashman i must disagree a tad
if my system runs perfectly, which it did before the installation of PANTHER, then the last one who made the changes, aka Apple, must get the blame by default.
I for one cannot take the blame as i was just the disc jockey, who switched between installation disc one and two.
The guys who made the other programs such as MS sadly cannot be blamed either as their programs ran without a glitch before. So in a way, yes it is Apple's problem - they introduced an extension to the OS, received my money for it and i feel i can demand that it works at least as well as before and definitely not worse

If a given situation is exactly as you describe (i.e., worked before, doesn't now), then Apple gets the blame -- fair enough. But that's not the type of situation I was aiming my comment at. I specifically mentioned users who give no other explanation besides "It's broke. Must be Apple's fault." (Such as a few posts earlier in this thread.)

Fair enough?

iPC
Nov 26, 2003, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Powerbook G5
As I mentioned previously, there have been postings by Apple on their discussion boards mentioning that Safari and Mail have known stability issues due to outside fonts that are corrupt not being handled gracefully by the programs, resulting in a crash, so if anyone who is experiencing these frequent crashes with Safari has added fonts, I'd suggest disabling them to see if it helps.
I have not added any fonts (this thing is for personal use only).

Mine is a Jag install that was updated to Panther though.

JJTiger1
Nov 26, 2003, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by cristiana
I hope {snippage}

I liked the Expose features, for about an hour.

I use a mouse that has acceleration features. The acceleration feature overflies the cursor and into a corner which launches an Expose feature,
.. which means that I have to stop what I'm doing, click somewhere that I did not intend to, just to resume where I was before Expose triggered.

... and it all slows me down, so I turned OFF Expose. Selected the " - " (dash).
=-=-=
Problem: accelerated mouse (Logitech Marble Mouse) launches Expose unintentionally.

Brainless Solution :D : whine that Apple needs to fix something that is not within their realm of responsibility.
=-=
JJ

Trimix
Nov 26, 2003, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by splashman
If a given situation is exactly as you describe (i.e., worked before, doesn't now), then Apple gets the blame -- fair enough. But that's not the type of situation I was aiming my comment at. I specifically mentioned users who give no other explanation besides "It's broke. Must be Apple's fault." (Such as a few posts earlier in this thread.)

Fair enough?

it is exactly as i described it and thus your comment is well taken and very fair :)

BOOMBA
Nov 26, 2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by coolfactor
Apple has different teams of people working on different aspects of the OS and applications. That's why Mail and iPhoto have some very odd approaches to interface design. The Mail Import Assistant in Mail.app is just silly, and the Keywords feature in iPhoto definitely has room for improvement.

Right again coolfactor!
You are soooo cool!

areyouwishing
Nov 26, 2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by fBaran
Does any body know if they're gonna supprt HP OfficeJet v40? The open source drivers don't work :(

I've gotten a v40 to work, both by USB and by Windows Sharing...and that was under jag.

magi.sys
Nov 27, 2003, 04:33 AM
I use a mouse that has acceleration features. The acceleration feature overflies the cursor and into a corner which launches an Expose feature,
.. which means that I have to stop what I'm doing, click somewhere that I did not intend to, just to resume where I was before Expose triggered.


That's why there's the option to use the keyboard (function keys).

JJTiger1
Nov 27, 2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by magi.sys
That's why there's the option to use the keyboard (function keys).

Thank you.

I am aware of the keyboard F-key Expose mapping defaults, which I had to turn off to prevent conflicts.

I should have mentioned that my USB Logitech Navigator keyboard keys came with it's own default mapping to other functions that I use.

Thank you.