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Be aware that OS X (at least Leopard) is not "rock solid"

A

ArthurDaley

macrumors regular
Original poster
I'd love to write something longer to detail my experience of moving over to a Mac (MBP running 10.5.2) after 16 years of using Windows. But for now, I'll keep this one short and to the point. The purpose is to provide more honesty than you get from "apple diehards".

My faith in Windows being a long term platform vanished with Vista and I decided to move quicker than later because if my main laptop broke, I could not get another one with XP (and it's against principle to be forced to buy Vista just to "downgrade").

So on moving over to a MBP I had visions set by what I realise now are what I call Mac zealots. What I'd like to do thru a few posts is point out the reality of moving over to the Mac.

With the aim of keeping this short, let me make the first point by mentioning a geek t-shirt I have. Soon after I got totally sick of XP, I bought a t-shirt which read:

"End Task,
End Task,
End Task,
End the f**king task" (stars added for forum)

One of my biggest hopes was I'd not suffer this on a Mac. The reality is on a good day it maybe occurs quarter of the time it did on XP and on a bad day like yesterday, the same amount of times. Yesterday I was left wanting a t-shirt which read:

"Force Quit,
Force Quit,
Force Quit,
F**cking Force Quit the B**tard"

Yesterday may have been more demanding as I was using Parallels quite a bit (to get some data over). But the point remands the same - on moving to the Mac you may not be hitting CTRL+ALT+DEL but you will be hitting COMMAND+OPTION+ESCAPE, albeit somewhat less often.
 
Leopard can still be a bit buggy, hell its only been out 8 months. Compared to XP thats been out 7 years I would say its quite a triumph 😛

Also your still on 10.5.2 apparently. 10.5.3 is out, get that, it will improve your system a lot 😉
 
There is no such thing as a Rock Solid OS. The OS is designed to be as strong and stable as possible under most predictable conditions. Any OS will experience problems from time to time for a plethora of reasons, (user abuse, bad programming, unforseen conflicts between apps/hardware and such like).

I am a recent convert myself and have also seen a crash (and am pretty sure it was due to th eamount if pounding my macbok air is getting until the MacPro takes over the serious stuff).

My point is that even the mighty Solaris and other posix OS's have problems from time to time. The Mac os has less than most commercially available to the public becuase it is targetted at specific hardware boundries (apple).

I remember seeing the 'bomb' on my Mac LCII back in the day and to be honest about the same frequency as my PC would crash (MSDOS5) - this however was about once or twice a year. Times have changed and we all demand a lot more from our systems, and as such we have to expect an occasional hang up.

My current experience is somewhat good with the MAC OS X 10.5.3.

Take heart my fellow antivistanarian - it is better than most OS's......

Thanks tho for your honesty
 
ArthurDaley said:
Yesterday may have been more demanding as I was using Parallels quite a bit
Click to expand...

I'm a switcher too - my MBP has locked up, not just the application, but even a complete kernel panic (OS X BSOD). Application lockups stopped when I ditched Office 2008 for iWork, and the kernel panics and other related flakiness when I ditched Parallels for VMWare.

Parallels and its networking components bring mine and many of my colleagues machines to their knees. VMware, not so much 😉
 
as far as rock solid OS's go

XP > Vista
Leopard > XP
Tiger > Leopard
Tiger 10.4.11 > mythical future OS that never stalls/crashes/reminds you of windows in general
 
All I can say is that your computer is probably lacking RAM for all the tasks you want to do. My Mac mini used to give me the spinning beachball quite often, however after upgrading to 2.5GB this little box rarely has time to play volleyball anymore. 😉

It could also be your applications that are at fault and not the OS, so YMMV. So far, in almost 3 years, my Mac minis have frozen about 4 times total. I don't see why your system is having as much problems as you are saying.
 
yeah i feel the same way

i switched to mac os x almost exactly a year ago. The very first time i used it i had a kernel panic which caused tiger to no longer boot up I had to use the disk that came with the computer. Since then I've had probably somewhere around 100 kernel panics that froze my computer. But 10.5.2 crashed a lot less and 10.5.3 hasn't had a kernel panics YET, even though there have been some minor problems. The only thing that I like about the mac os x, over windows, is the fact there are virtually no viruses or trojans which is a big plus other then that Mac Os X and Xp are about the same in my opinion. So I may switch back with my next computer purchase if windows 7 is very good.
 
What is it that you're force quitting exactly, the finder or specific apps?

If it's not kernel panicing then the *OS* is stable, if apps are crashing then it's likely that you're running buggy apps, apple can't create a magical OS that automagically runs buggy programs perfectly the best they can do is create an OS that won't fall over when an application does.

If your mac is freezing up completely or kernel panicking there is something wrong with it probably a hardware fault.
 
ArthurDaley said:
Yesterday may have been more demanding as I was using Parallels quite a bit (to get some data over).
Click to expand...

Leading with a "Look, I really, really don't like Windows, but..." disclaimer/cred-builder is unnecessary. It's OK to continue to use & even enjoy other OS's, even those from MS, we won't think less of you. 😛 Instead of just saying that OS X is less than perfect (which we all know, anyway), why not start with the paragraph above--and why exactly it was necessary to Force Escape, and give us a little detail about your machine and the complete symptoms. The Mac & its OS aren't some sort of "magic box," configuration & settings are important. I spend a lot of time with my MacBook running Win2K3 Server, Oracle 11, and a proprietary commerce application with zero problems under Fusion, but I can't do that by allocating too little memory, having other things running that aren't needed at the time, etc.
 
I'm having the same trouble since 10.5.3. Quiting applications doesn't alway work and neither does force quiting. You have to continually hit force quit, on the 4th or 5th time it decides to do it.
 
Laco said:
i switched to mac os x almost exactly a year ago. The very first time i used it i had a kernel panic which caused tiger to no longer boot up I had to use the disk that came with the computer. Since then I've had probably somewhere around 100 kernel panics that froze my computer. But 10.5.2 crashed a lot less and 10.5.3 hasn't had a kernel panics YET, even though there have been some minor problems. The only thing that I like about the mac os x, over windows, is the fact there are virtually no viruses or trojans which is a big plus other then that Mac Os X and Xp are about the same in my opinion. So I may switch back with my next computer purchase if windows 7 is very good.
Click to expand...

wow 100???

under jaguar/tiger/leopard i have had no more than 20 in the last 5-6 years.. what have you been doing lol!! running too much 3rd party software?? haha

my only major kernal panics have been either
a) a lacie external HD causing the problem
b) 3rd party software
c)crappy RAM
 
DoFoT9 said:
wow 100???

under jaguar/tiger/leopard i have had no more than 20 in the last 5-6 years.. what have you been doing lol!! running too much 3rd party software?? haha

my only major kernal panics have been either
a) a lacie external HD causing the problem
b) 3rd party software
c)crappy RAM
Click to expand...

I would say that about 40 to 50 percent of those had to do with hibernation in leopard (during which time i had an on average of 4 to 5 kernel panics per day), which caused me no try to avoid hibrination all together for a long time. The other half I'm not sure of, but also seemed to have been tiger and leopard 10.5.0 and 10.5.1 related since they decreased greatly in 10.5.2 and 10.5.3 didn't crash YET, i hope it stays that way~!
 
Laco said:
i switched to mac os x almost exactly a year ago. The very first time i used it i had a kernel panic which caused tiger to no longer boot up I had to use the disk that came with the computer. Since then I've had probably somewhere around 100 kernel panics that froze my computer. But 10.5.2 crashed a lot less and 10.5.3 hasn't had a kernel panics YET, even though there have been some minor problems. The only thing that I like about the mac os x, over windows, is the fact there are virtually no viruses or trojans which is a big plus other then that Mac Os X and Xp are about the same in my opinion. So I may switch back with my next computer purchase if windows 7 is very good.
Click to expand...

100 Kernel panics is obviously a hardware problem. If I saw TWO kernel panics, the machine would be going back in. But that hasn't happened.
 
decksnap said:
100 Kernel panics is obviously a hardware problem. If I saw TWO kernel panics, the machine would be going back in. But that hasn't happened.
Click to expand...

I agree. I have had zero on leopard and maybe one ever on tiger. The only kernal panic I can distinctly remember was with 10.2, and it was caused by my moving system files. 🙄
 
ArthurDaley said:
I'd love to write something longer to detail my experience of moving over to a Mac (MBP running 10.5.2) after 16 years of using Windows. But for now, I'll keep this one short and to the point. The purpose is to provide more honesty than you get from "apple diehards".
Click to expand...



All one has to to do is say "I'm not having that problem" and they are labeled an "Apple diehard".
 
The only application I find I have to Force Quit because its not responding is Safari (sadly). Usually I visit some site that is running a not very well coded script and Safari locks up with the beach ball for over 30 seconds and I get frustrated and Force Quit.

I've had it happen with all my applications of course but its never a regular occurrence like with Safari. I'm also a Vista user and I don't have many applications crash on there either. Team Fortress 2, a game by VALVe (makers of Half Life) always always crashes on Exit. What I mean is I will click the Exit on the game, the game will then close completely but I get a crash report box appear saying the game crashed.. Not that it is so bothersome I just hit the Close button and its gone.

That's the only real application I find that crashes on my Vista install and Safari likewise on Leopard.

A far cry from Mac OS 10.2 and the first few years of Windows XP I can tell you now!
 
It is not always the OS at fault.

ArthurDaley said:
Yesterday may have been more demanding as I was using Parallels quite a bit (to get some data over). But the point remands the same - on moving to the Mac you may not be hitting CTRL+ALT+DEL but you will be hitting COMMAND+OPTION+ESCAPE, albeit somewhat less often.
Click to expand...

Quitting Parallels is not very wise move - it is using a bunch of kernel extensions, so it is like trying to terminate kernel. I would agree parallel is not the best product out there. BTW it is causing issues in 10.4.11 as well (I ended up erasing one of my VM image and started from scratch as it completely lost its mind). VMFusion may be the answer as I heard more positive than negative about.

It you want to stay rock-stable - stick with Apple software only, if possible, or 3rd party apps that do not rely on kernel or extensions as these type of app could potentially wreck a havoc in your system (Virtualization, hardware monitors/diagnostic/performance and etc.).

I am about to clean-install Leopard instead of my "rock-solid" Tiger, but I would not want just to upgrade it, to make sure old stuff would not interfere with new OS.
 
ArthurDaley said:
I'd love to write something longer to detail my experience of moving over to a Mac (MBP running 10.5.2) after 16 years of using Windows. But for now, I'll keep this one short and to the point. The purpose is to provide more honesty than you get from "apple diehards".

My faith in Windows being a long term platform vanished with Vista and I decided to move quicker than later because if my main laptop broke, I could not get another one with XP (and it's against principle to be forced to buy Vista just to "downgrade").

So on moving over to a MBP I had visions set by what I realise now are what I call Mac zealots. What I'd like to do thru a few posts is point out the reality of moving over to the Mac.

With the aim of keeping this short, let me make the first point by mentioning a geek t-shirt I have. Soon after I got totally sick of XP, I bought a t-shirt which read:

"End Task,
End Task,
End Task,
End the f**king task" (stars added for forum)

One of my biggest hopes was I'd not suffer this on a Mac. The reality is on a good day it maybe occurs quarter of the time it did on XP and on a bad day like yesterday, the same amount of times. Yesterday I was left wanting a t-shirt which read:

"Force Quit,
Force Quit,
Force Quit,
F**cking Force Quit the B**tard"

Yesterday may have been more demanding as I was using Parallels quite a bit (to get some data over). But the point remands the same - on moving to the Mac you may not be hitting CTRL+ALT+DEL but you will be hitting COMMAND+OPTION+ESCAPE, albeit somewhat less often.
Click to expand...

Your expectations are set too high. Programs lock up on all
OSes. In most cases it's the fault of the application writer.

OS X and Vista are both pretty solid, and Vista is substantially
more solid than XP (more code runs in user mode than before).
 
nick9191 said:
Leopard can still be a bit buggy, hell its only been out 8 months. Compared to XP thats been out 7 years I would say its quite a triumph 😛

Also your still on 10.5.2 apparently. 10.5.3 is out, get that, it will improve your system a lot 😉
Click to expand...

I gotta pipe in here and say:

That is the most Windows-like advice I've ever encountered here at this forum and most certainly un-Apple-like to a very high degree. Why would someone need "improvement" for "the world's most advanced operating system" ? Eh? If it's so damned advanced, what's with all the updates - and why don't people look at Leopard as people look at Vista in the sense that "Ok, it wasn't done right when it was shoved out the door, so we'll just patch it as time goes by." Why don't actual Mac owners that do have issues - the incredibly silent minority, mind you - actually speak up from time to time and say "Hey, that does bother me, but I let it go" because I know damned well that not 100% of current Apple Macintosh computer owners are 100% satisfied - it's impossible, and anyone saying otherwise would be a liar, period.

The OP is merely stating a fact that is true and remains true regardless of what "PC" you own or bought or built or use: no OS is perfect, but a lot of Mac owners do tend to claim more often than not that the sheer fact that Apple builds the machine and then writes the OS tailored for the machine they build. One could argue to some degree that Macs are the "consoles" of the personal computing industry because of the narrow tightly controlled architecture and platform tied to a specific OS.

Regardless, I can speak from my own experience of having owned 4 "real" Macs in a 2 month span of time (all returned for being defective - not even Apple can make 'em that perfect).

For an OS that Apple claims is "the most advanced operating system" I'm looking at not one, not two, but now THREE major updates to Leopard since it's release and within 7 days of the release of the third, they're now testing the FOURTH major update.

And here we are with the person above saying "Oh, don't worry about it, just grab the latest 'service pack' (my words, but they get the point across) and you'll be fine."

Sounds like the advice people give Vista RTM users... "Oh, don't worry about it, just grab the latest service pack and you'll be fine, they fixed that with the latest update."

The similarities are mind boggling... 🙂
 
br0adband said:
For an OS that Apple claims is "the most advanced operating system" I'm looking at not one, not two, but now THREE major updates to Leopard since it's release and within 7 days of the release of the third, they're now testing the FOURTH major update.
Click to expand...


No piece of software comes out of the gate perfect. Furthermore, incompatibilities with new and untested peripherals and machines always mean new patches will be necessary. Better to have those updates for free, right?

If I thought different, I would have assumed that your post was just a touch inflammatory... 😉
 
See, that's exactly what I'm referring to:

Instead of saying "Ok, it's got bugs, I admit that" the effort was put forth to restate that obvious (that Leopard is a bit buggy to some degree; how much exactly, that's impossible to say) in this way:

Blue Velvet said:
Furthermore, incompatibilities with new and untested peripherals and machines always mean new patches will be necessary.
Click to expand...

It's a twist on the fact that the .3 update resolved a lot of bugs, glitches, what have you. Looking over the list of actual things resolved in the .3 update, I see more "fixes" for software issues with Leopard itself - far more - than I do just simple compatibility resolution with hardware although there are a few tossed in (Time Machine works better with more external drives, some USB devices work better, etc).

The statement quoted above is spinning the update(s) in a positive way, far more positive than I would ever dream of trying to spin it. They're bug fixes and updates, simple, and should be called as much.

I'm not pointing a finger at Leopard and saying "You're crap and people should just admit it." What I'm saying is that OSX has its issues just like any other and it would be nice if the diehard Mac aficionados would sometimes just state the obvious instead of taking an almost politician's path and spinning it.

And we all know what happens when people assume things, right? 😉

Service Pack 1 for Vista wasn't put out just to add support for "new and untested peripherals" I assure you, and neither are the Leopard updates. It's a bug fix, plain and simple, with some additional support and compatibility resolutions, just as the Leopard updates are meant to do.
 
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