Mac OS X Snow Leopard Drops PowerPC Support [Archive]

MacRumors

Jun 11, 2008, 12:15 PM

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

http://images.macrumors.com/article/2008/06/11/131105-6846_400.jpg

Image from LogicielMac (http://www.logicielmac.com/news5041/Snow_Leopard__adieu_les_PPC_.html)
LogicielMac publishes (http://www.logicielmac.com/news5041/Snow_Leopard__adieu_les_PPC_.html) a screenshot for the system requirements for Mac OS X Snow Leopard which was seeded to developers this week. The requirements list the following:

- An Intel Processor
- An internal, external, or shared DVD drive
- At least 512 MB of RAM
- Display connected to an Apple-supplied video card
- 9GB of disk space, or 12GB for developer tools

Developers received an early copy of Snow Leopard at WWDC this week. As this is an early version, requirements could change in the future, but the dropping of PowerPC support has been long rumored. MacRumors can independently verify that these are the current requirements for Snow Leopard.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/06/11/mac-os-x-snow-leopard-drops-powerpc-support/)

amusiccale

Jun 11, 2008, 12:17 PM

iMpathetic

Jun 11, 2008, 12:18 PM

Can I celebrate now?

stiles

Jun 11, 2008, 12:19 PM

wow, good thing i recently purchased a mac pro

jayhawk11

Jun 11, 2008, 12:19 PM

And let the b*tching begin...:rolleyes:

slightly

Jun 11, 2008, 12:19 PM

GeekLawyer

Jun 11, 2008, 12:20 PM

Ouch. Good thing my shop is all Intel, save for my old G3 iMac, which couldn't hope to run plain, simple Leopard, let alone super-duper Snow Leopard.

redAPPLE

Jun 11, 2008, 12:20 PM

it is going to happen eventually, but again, i think it is a bad move (personally because i still have a lot of ppc macs).

Yvan256

Jun 11, 2008, 12:21 PM

The requirements specifically say "Snow Leopard Developer Preview", not just "Snow Leopard".

It could mean nothing, maybe the PPC code isn't up-to-date. It could also mean that PPC is a thing of the past, like the 680x0.

I do agree that leaner code should mean faster machines, so I don't mind the drop of PPC support, even though 2/3 of my Macs are G4s (and still run Tiger anyway).

aLoC

Jun 11, 2008, 12:22 PM

But other screenshots of this preview has Finder showing apps as Universal. If they were going to drop PowerPC support, surely the first thing they'd do is go through and skinny up all the binaries.

mjstew33

Jun 11, 2008, 12:22 PM

Mixed feelings, here. I've got two PPC Macs that could run Snow Leopard very well.

On the other hand... better, faster, more efficient code is always a good thing. Thank God my main computer is my MacBook Pro!

BillyBobBongo

Jun 11, 2008, 12:22 PM

Aye....was bound to happen!

*sheds tear for all those that will be left behind*

Cabbit

Jun 11, 2008, 12:23 PM

All this currently means is that the current build of the developer preview is intel only. but it may mean that PPC has been ditched and will require to stay on normal Leopard only.
Since Snow Leopard is the foundation for future OSX builds it makes seance not to have PPC support as these systems will not be supported in future versions of OSX anyway which Snow Leopard is being built as the foundations of.
Anyone surprised by this needs to think logically, you don't lay a wooden foundation for a brick house.
I also note that its a good 5GB smaller than a 10.5 install.

atszyman

Jun 11, 2008, 12:23 PM

These are the requirements for the preview version it's entirely possible that the intel version has had more work done at the moment and they can get developers/testers started on that while they work out the PPC kinks if there are any.

It hasn't even been 5 years since the Intel announcement. I would think they'd keep PPC support around at least that long.

Muffin87

Jun 11, 2008, 12:23 PM

Isn't that a little bit too early?
I don't personally care and actually think dropping PowerPC support will enable Apple to provide Intel Macs owners a better product, yet people who bought a Mac in late 2005 or especially a PowerMac G5 in August 2006 (when the intel transition ended) should still be able to install the latest OS.
My personal opinion...

BornAgainMac

Jun 11, 2008, 12:23 PM

LloydBraun89

Jun 11, 2008, 12:23 PM

goodbye ppc i will miss thee...not

benlee

Jun 11, 2008, 12:24 PM

Complainers: please try to remember that your PPC computer will continue to work as it always has. This is for the benefit of all and the advancement of the OS.

I tried.

Cyburnclassic

Jun 11, 2008, 12:24 PM

Seems like the minimum specs havent changed much from Mac OS X Leopard (10.5)

The Menacer

Jun 11, 2008, 12:25 PM

Daveoc64

Jun 11, 2008, 12:25 PM

I also think it's a little to early to call.

Apple might just not have the PPC version ready to go/is only going to test it internally.

Although I think it's entirely possible that it'll be Intel-only.

I personally expected G5 support.

k2spitfire88

Jun 11, 2008, 12:26 PM

TheAngusBurger

Jun 11, 2008, 12:26 PM

I'm not surprised. Sounds like Snow Leopard is going to be an Intel Optimised version of Leopard, instead of a new OS.

cloudnine

Jun 11, 2008, 12:26 PM

Well that's a clear explanation of why the application sizes are so small... I feel like a hypocrite being excited about it, because if I hadn't bought a new iMac a couple months ago, I'd be bitching up a storm about not being able to install it on my PowerBook... hah.

nick004

Jun 11, 2008, 12:26 PM

Bummer :) Guess you can't live in the past forever :P

powermac_daddy

Jun 11, 2008, 12:27 PM

why named snow?

cloudnine

Jun 11, 2008, 12:28 PM

zioxide

Jun 11, 2008, 12:28 PM

Good. PPC is dead and has been for quite a while.

slicecom

Jun 11, 2008, 12:28 PM

This could be the excuse I was looking for to upgrade my PowerBook! If only they still made a 12"... :rolleyes:

cloudnine

Jun 11, 2008, 12:28 PM

why named snow?

Because it's basically going to be a "prettier" version of Leopard. :P

johnnyjibbs

Jun 11, 2008, 12:28 PM

I guess drop all the PowerPC drivers, binaries and files (therefore dropping all the application sizes and increasing speed and efficiency), no new features, another $129 thankyouverymuch. :eek::rolleyes::mad:

Tallest Skil

Jun 11, 2008, 12:28 PM

why named snow?

It's not a very big upgrade. There are no radical changes.

Wait... There ARE radical changes because they're basically rewriting OS X. The feature set is remaining the same.

Earendil

Jun 11, 2008, 12:28 PM

I'm probably going to be ignored, but I'll say it anyway...

Developers using XCode 3 and Leopard right now are required to use Intel machines if I am correct. At least XCode 3 requires an intel machine.

So does it not make sense that a release meant only for DEVELOPERS would also require intel machines?
i.e. support for PPC would be stupid and useless if the release is meant only for those that are already required to be on intel machines.

This could just be me being hopeful, but it makes sense, right?

Kuska

Jun 11, 2008, 12:30 PM

I'm confused

So my eMac no longer 'has no Leopard' ;)

Applepi

Jun 11, 2008, 12:30 PM

I adore my G4, but if this does end up happening..I won't be upset as I am all for OSX moving forward.

ATG

Jun 11, 2008, 12:31 PM

Snow Leopard is mainly about performance. If you have a PPC processor then it's very unlikely that any of the new improvements in snow leopard will help that much. So not really that much of a big deal.

I'm probably going to be ignored, but I'll say it anyway...

Developers using XCode 3 and Leopard right now are required to use Intel machines if I am correct. At least XCode 3 requires an intel machine.

So does it not make sense that a release meant only for DEVELOPERS would also require intel machines?
i.e. support for PPC would be stupid and useless if the release is meant only for those that are already required to be on intel machines.

This could just be me being hopeful, but it makes sense, right?
This is incorrect. Xcode is a universal binary and you can use it on PPCs. Developers do not need to have Intel computers.

Scottcop

Jun 11, 2008, 12:31 PM

FakeWozniak

Jun 11, 2008, 12:31 PM

why named snow?

Because a Snow Leopard is still a Leopard! No new feature changes.

MrT8064

Jun 11, 2008, 12:31 PM

I think this is a fantastic move, people will complain, but if it leads to a much better and faster OS then so be it.

greenmymac

Jun 11, 2008, 12:32 PM

Where can we get a legit copy of this?

mjstew33

Jun 11, 2008, 12:33 PM

kabunaru

Jun 11, 2008, 12:33 PM

ecoons

Jun 11, 2008, 12:33 PM

slicecom I was looking to do the same with my PB G4 12" But I love it so much that I am just considering buying a iMac and keeping the laptop around for mobility. I bought my computer less than 3 years ago and it runs Leopard fine. I just don't see how they can cut PPC support for those G5 owners who bought late in 2006.

If Apple wants to sell high end computers that are going to last their customer base 3-5 years (which I would say is a good amount) they need to keep the support running.

I mean, how would some of these new Mac Pro owners feel if 10.7 wouldn't run on their computers in 2 years...

With that said, I DO see the advantages of switching eventually.

chuckles:)

Jun 11, 2008, 12:34 PM

My iMac G5 which i got just b4 the intel transition is almost 3 years old. In another year, when snow leopard launches, it'll be 4. Thats about as old a computer can get. Even if i cant install snow, and i still want to use it, it will function just fine under leopard for another year without feeling overly obsolete from a software perspective.

In order to move forward, we must leave the past behind.

The Menacer

Jun 11, 2008, 12:34 PM

A little earlier than I expected, but bound to happen eventually. I guess they are gonna use Snow Leopard as their foundation for the future, and because of that, they decided the PPC machines couldnt keep up. I'm sorry if you have a PPC Mac, but this had to happen at some point.

So this is Apple's Vista?

FakeWozniak

Jun 11, 2008, 12:34 PM

michaelvoigt

Jun 11, 2008, 12:34 PM

According to the web archive you could still purchase a powerPC full line of Mac computer through the first quarter 2006.

Do you stop making a OS that works for machines that are 2.5 years old, especially for Mac hardware?

I mean for god-sakes Vista will run; like crap, on a much older machine.

I find this lazy, and flawed.

I still prefer the architecture of the powerPC and find it more efficient. If they could only get the chip heat down for a laptop sized G5 it would be a different world.

Sky Blue

Jun 11, 2008, 12:35 PM

Where can we get a legit copy of this?

Right now, nowhere.

stormj

Jun 11, 2008, 12:35 PM

I thought Snow leopard was suppose to have a small footprint, save you hard drive space for your photos etc, seems you need to have 9 gigs spare.

I know nowadays you can pick up a 500gig drive for £60, but I assumed it had a much smaller install than that?
I suppose its a pre-beta(?) so we maybe things will change.

Things might change depending on how it's compiled.

Anyway, I love the name--I hope it raises awareness a little about Snow Leopards, which are super cool critters. I think moving past PPC is not unexpected.

So my only remaining question is this:

Does it ditch Carbon? Wouldn't having a Cocoa-only API go further to streamline things than removing PPC support?

Personally, I thought the universal binary concept was neat, and hope it stays around just because I wonder whether or not x86 is forever.

FrenchKheldar

Jun 11, 2008, 12:36 PM

I don't get it... If Apple will use PA Semi stuff for its portable devices (iPod, iPhones) and the OS X on these has the same kernel as the OS X on the Mac (based on what was said on the keynote), does that mean Apple will integrate x86 procs (Atom 2 since Atom is an order of magnitude away in terms of power used) on a system on chip designed by PA Semi?

I'd like to believe that most of the optimization will indeed be focused on x86 architecture but that PowerPC support will still be around for the future. To those so high on Intel right now, don't forget that the wind can change direction pretty quickly in this field, and that it would make sense for Apple to keep its options open. Now I'm sure they will keep internal builds for PPC but a complete drop still sends the wrong message to me.

himansk

Jun 11, 2008, 12:36 PM

Its just the developer preview, apple is known to release intel only developer previews to the developers, does not necessarily meant that they are dropping ppc just yet.

milo

Jun 11, 2008, 12:36 PM

And let the b*tching begin...:rolleyes:

If you insist.

This sucks.

So much for trusting that Apple will support your box for a reasonable period of time. I have to say, this definitely puts a damper on my apple purchases for a while - if I can't count on support, I'm going to have to stretch things out as long as possible and wait for major chip updates to avoid getting stuck with something that won't be supported.

And for the record, I know machines have to lose support at some point. This is just a much shorter window of support than apple usually provides.

And I know my machine can keep running 10.5, but there will undoubtably be apps that will be 10.6 only.

At least this isn't coming until mid 2009 instead of January as initially rumored. Hopefully it will run late like Leopard daid.

Good. PPC is dead and has been for quite a while.

Two years is not "quite a while".

So this is Apple's Vista?

Doesn't vista support machines going back more than two or three years?

SP Jon M3

Jun 11, 2008, 12:36 PM

Daveoc64

Jun 11, 2008, 12:37 PM

Yeah, I think it would suck if you got a Mac in 2006 - particularly a PowerMac G5 - hardly the longest support lifecycle (i.e. less than 3 years).

stormj

Jun 11, 2008, 12:38 PM

I think it is also to early to call. There are still developments in the G6 area and I would suspect Apple still has rights to use the architecture. I wouldn't be surprised if PA Semiconductor wouldn't be able to churn out a low power G6+ in the future...

I feel sorry for all those Quad/Octo-Core G5 owners out there. There are Ocot-core G5's, right?

It's not as if you can't run Leopard on those. Also, by the time this comes out--realistically first or second quarter 2009, is anything that you used to need cutting-edge stuff for still going to be any good on those?

Those machines won't explode and die when Snow Leopard comes out.

ChrisA

Jun 11, 2008, 12:38 PM

Snow Leopard may drop PPC suport but maybe Apple will continue to support Leopard for some time with security fixes and so on PPC users can stay with Leopard they would gain nothing with Snow Leopard anyways.

I doubt the final release will drop PPC. I think the real reason for this new "smaller" OS is to suport the new line of very low-end CPUs that are going into portible devices like iPod and the iPhone. Untill now each OS release could assume the "CPU Power" would be noplace but up but now Apple needs the OS to run well on pocket size computers. Apple does ot want to have two OSes, they'd rather have one that runs on both the iPod Touch and the Mac Pro.

Cutting down the number of processors supported does NOT make the OS smaller. Look at both Linux and BSD Unix. These both support a huge number of processors, from micro controlers to huge super computers. Linux even runs on the iPod. But yet both Linux and BSD Unix are smaller and faster then Mac OS X. What happens is the build process on those systems builds binaries that are processor specific. I can't understand why Aple went with "fat" Universal Binaries. Why not put two binaries on the disc and have the installer pick the corect one. Users would never know

chrisgeleven

Jun 11, 2008, 12:38 PM

Well that also solves the 64-bit only debate. Clearly, it will run on all intel macs, 32-bit or 64-bit.

I have no problems with this. Keep in mind that 10.6 Snow Leopard is at least a year away from release. At that point, even the oldest PPC Macs are in the 3-4 year old range and as the year goes on, more and more of those PPC macs are being retired. There simply won't be enough PPC Macs left for Apple to commit resources to keep up-to-date.

The Menacer

Jun 11, 2008, 12:39 PM

I think this "Snow Leopard" thing is ********. They say that their focus is on performance and stablility for this next operating system. Translation? We've just been focusing on throwing a bunch of new, mostly useless, features in to OS X and not on the whole thing.

They should've made it fast the first time they put it out. Instead of rushing and essentially making me pay $258 for one operating system.

jfruh

Jun 11, 2008, 12:39 PM

Just because the OS is Intel-only, that doesn't mean it won't work with PPC-compiled apps, does it? I mean, I'm assuming that Rosetta will still be part of the system.

stormj

Jun 11, 2008, 12:39 PM

Where can we get a legit copy of this?

WWDC. Become a developer.

GotPro

Jun 11, 2008, 12:39 PM

So this is Apple's Vista?

Huh? In what warped sense is this Apple's "Vista"???

Vista was a bloated, ginormous eye-candy filled piece of **** that was coded so poorly that you had to have the very best hardware just to make it run slowly...

Snow Leopard is a lean, trim, mean massively multi-cpu aware OS that requires multiple cpus. To keep it lean and trim, they are shaving off PPC support...

How in the WORLD is that the same?

OS X Dude

Jun 11, 2008, 12:39 PM

Steve did say "it'll have a much smaller footprint, more space for photos etc"

And where does this space come from? Dropping PPC support.

Such a crying shame. I got into Macs in the G3 days and I always see the PPC macs as "true macs". Now they're useless. ouch.

stormj

Jun 11, 2008, 12:40 PM

SirOmega

Jun 11, 2008, 12:40 PM

The requirements specifically say "Snow Leopard Developer Preview", not just "Snow Leopard".

It could mean nothing, maybe the PPC code isn't up-to-date. It could also mean that PPC is a thing of the past, like the 680x0.

This is pretty much what I have to say. Just like the iPhone SDK wasn't supported on PPC macs until the 3rd or 4th beta, this could be the case here as well...

KindredMAC

Jun 11, 2008, 12:40 PM

I think it is also to early to call. There are still developments in the G6 area and I would suspect Apple still has rights to use the architecture. I wouldn't be surprised if PA Semiconductor wouldn't be able to churn out a low power G6+ in the future...

I feel sorry for all those Quad/Octo-Core G5 owners out there. There are Ocot-core G5's, right?

Nope. Just Dual Cores and Quad Cores (2xDual Cores).
I have the 2.0GHz Dual Core PowerMac G5, the last gen of PowerMacs, and I have to say I think this is BS to drop PPC G5 support. If anything, drop G4 support. The Dual Core G5 PPC is a perfectly capable chip to run what ever Apple wants to throw at it.

ecoons

Jun 11, 2008, 12:41 PM

Developers using XCode 3 and Leopard right now are required to use Intel machines if I am correct. At least XCode 3 requires an intel machine.

XCode 3 still runs on my PB G4, so I think it is just the iPhone SDK.

unwinded

Jun 11, 2008, 12:41 PM

It would make zero sense to inject PPC in a later preview build. That would defeat the purpose of it being a developer build. Yes, the applications say "Universal" instead of "Intel" but those file sizes are awfully small.

It's called "Snow Leopard" and has no new features other than taking advantage of new technology... what would the benefits to PowerPC owers be?

The Menacer

Jun 11, 2008, 12:41 PM

Doesn't vista support machines going back more than two or three years?

Yeah, it does. Hence, Apple, by cutting PPC, is putting out something that is LESS COMPATIBLE THAN VISTA!

zioxide

Jun 11, 2008, 12:41 PM

Two years is not "quite a while".

It is in the computing world. Also the intel transition was announced 3 years ago.

Anyone who bought a PPC Mac after the transition started (especially in 06 after some intel macs were already shipping) should have thought about it more carefully. Expecting Apple to support these machines for the long haul was stupid.

QuantumLo0p

Jun 11, 2008, 12:41 PM

why named snow?

Because we are getting snowed by Apple again. This is a big one but arguably the biggest Apple Snow Job would be "we'll use intel chips when hell freezes over" while testing EVERY iteration of os-x on intel along side power since 10.0.

Seriously now, this seems totally logical but my biggest concern is how long will Apple support Leopard on power with security updates and bug fixes.

If Leopard support for power evaporates when Snow is released then Apple will again add to its long list of loyal customers left in the cold (no pun intended) to achieve the next level.

Perhaps os-x on non Apple hardware is a solution.

:D

Moe

Jun 11, 2008, 12:41 PM

Does it ditch Carbon?

I sure hope not! I wouldn't be able to run Cap'n Magneto any more. :-(

sebastianlewis

Jun 11, 2008, 12:42 PM

The dead giveaway for me was how you would have more disk storage for photos and music. This will be an emotional issue for some. Leopard PPC should be good enough for a few years for those folks with G5's anyways. This should help with the Q/A department with testing this and future OS upgrades and more rapid updates.

Will it only support Cocoa apps? That is the next phase to cutting out the fat.

Unlikely, even if they were to "trim out Carbon" there would still be POSIX and Java.

Sebastian

ppnkg

Jun 11, 2008, 12:42 PM

predictable....

morespce54

Jun 11, 2008, 12:42 PM

That makes me wonder if I won't re-install Tiger on my PPCs...
Leopard is ok on my Intels but not as good as Tiger was on my PPCs.
I know, we're only on .3 but still... And if Snow is Intel only and supposed to be an "Leopard enhanced" version...

Time will tell!

The Menacer

Jun 11, 2008, 12:42 PM

Where did you see a list price?

Do you really think that Apple wouldn't charge us $129 for this? It's Apple, for Godssake!

stormj

Jun 11, 2008, 12:42 PM

Just because the OS is Intel-only, that doesn't mean it won't work with PPC-compiled apps, does it? I mean, I'm assuming that Rosetta will still be part of the system.

I would hope you could at least opt to disable it--it causes a lot of problems. OTOH, I would hope it's included too.

Otherwise, how will I use my HP printer? (;

socamx

Jun 11, 2008, 12:42 PM

Well if it is true, it is for the best, you need to drop older stuff to move forward in most cases. Leaves me pretty bitter because it is much, much sooner than expected.

Just sucks for me because I really can't afford a Mac Pro, that's a very steep price for having a computer I can actually upgrade. Least my G5 was reasonably cheaper...

Being stuck with 10.5 on my G5 makes it useless now because I won't be able to run the latest software after 10.6 hits. Sure, I may be fine with new apps for awhile but sooner or later applications are going to saying '10.6 or newer' or 'Intel only.'

Makes me wonder what will become of universal binaries. I guess developers are going to choose between continuing their product as universal, start offering alternative intel-only downloads for smaller sizes or just totally drop PPC all together.

Oh well, computer/technology life goes on.

atszyman

Jun 11, 2008, 12:42 PM

If indeed they are dropping PPC support I'd also expect rosetta to be dropped completely. If the OS doesn't support PPC, there's no reason it should have to run PPC applications right?

If we're to the point of Apple not needing to support PPC, then there shouldn't be any applications that are PPC only left.

It will save space and improve performance since apps will all have to be native, no?

stormj

Jun 11, 2008, 12:43 PM

Do you really think that Apple wouldn't charge us $129 for this? It's Apple, for Godssake!

They didn't charge for 10.1

kabunaru

Jun 11, 2008, 12:44 PM

They should make a seperate copy for Intel and PowerPC. Two disks, each for their own architecture. People would be happy then.:)

oldwatery

Jun 11, 2008, 12:44 PM

And let the b*tching begin...:rolleyes:

Yeh, and why not.

Apple releases a slow, bloated OS and then realizes it needs to do something about it. So lets cast off all the millions of pre Intel users. Who cares about them anyway. After all they aren't buying new computers so screw them. :(

mjstew33

Jun 11, 2008, 12:45 PM

Where did you see a list price?

$129 for Leopard + $129 for Snow Leopard = $258

jettredmont

Jun 11, 2008, 12:45 PM

Inevitable, just as Classic support was dropped for Leopard. The OS has to move forwards, and if lack of PPC support is the price for lean, mean, fast code with a small footprint, I'm all for it.

Matt

Yeah, except that the Classic support transition lasted for 6-7 years, not 2-3.

Personally, I'll be majorly pissed. I buy computers with an expected 4-5 year lifetime (on a rotating schedule). My main workhorse machine is up for replacement next year (from a dual 2GHz G5, purchased early 2004), but the kids' machine won't be up until at least the year after that (late model G5 iMac, early 2005).

In the iMac range, moving the OS to Intel-only in Jan 2009 gives a max machine lifetime (unless you want to run an older, less-secure OS) of 3 years for those who bought fresh off the assembly line, and about 2 years for those who bought last-model closeouts in the refurb and discount sections. That's way too short.

Every other model went Intel later than the iMac over the course of 2006.

3 years or less effective lifetime is a knock in the teeth to prospective buyers. I'm not willing to spend $2500-3500 on a machine which will be dropped from support in three years. That damned well would affect my next-round buying decisions.

hodgjy

Jun 11, 2008, 12:46 PM

tmelvin

Jun 11, 2008, 12:47 PM

Yeah, it does. Hence, Apple, by cutting PPC, is putting out something that is LESS COMPATIBLE THAN VISTA!

Really? What ones are those? I tried installing Vista on a 3 year old DELL, and although it loaded on, many of the drivers were not available. Plus, it was dog slow because the processor wasn't of the latest and greatest.

It may install, but is it usable? That's another story.

If Vista is that great, then why is MS extending XP? I was told by our HP rep that they will continue to sell XP with all their new business notebooks/desktops for sometime to come, based on that statement.

a456

Jun 11, 2008, 12:47 PM

stormj

Jun 11, 2008, 12:47 PM

Unlikely, even if they were to "trim out Carbon" there would still be POSIX and Java.

Sebastian

Don't forget virtual machines. You can accomplish a lot with those. I wouldn't be opposed to using some kind of VM for rarely-used legacy support. You could, theoretically, run a Leopard VM to run programs that required Rosetta, Carbon or other deprecated APIs.

As for the PPC issue, well, that's life in the big city. It wasn't so long ago that a year old computer was hopelessly outdated. Things have slowed a little, but there's no reason to expect they won't speed up again.

Personally, I like that. It means new stuff is happening.

Anyway, I think the complainer folks obsession with long term support is overstated. Their current machines with Leopard will continue to work.

morespce54

Jun 11, 2008, 12:48 PM

Inevitable, just as Classic support was dropped for Leopard. The OS has to move forwards, and if lack of PPC support is the price for lean, mean, fast code with a small footprint, I'm all for it.

Matt

yes but support for Classic hasn't been dropped until 10.4 (not even, if you upgraded from 10.3). Now, 10.5 drops Classic support, 10.6 will drop PPC support, maybe we can expect 10.7 to drop Intel support... ;)

unwinded

Jun 11, 2008, 12:48 PM

atszyman

Jun 11, 2008, 12:48 PM

It is in the computing world. Also the intel transition was announced 3 years ago.

Anyone who bought a PPC Mac after the transition started (especially in 06 after some intel macs were already shipping) should have thought about it more carefully. Expecting Apple to support these machines for the long haul was stupid.

How is it stupid to buy a machine that natively supports all current applications and expect to get 3-4 years out of it? At the time of the announcement there were many, many good reasons to stick with the G5 architecture, and even after the Intel versions started shipping there were good reasons to stay with G5. Most people don't necessarily expect the long haul, but 4-5 years on an Apple computer isn't uncommon.

I know it's bound go happen sometime but it seems like this is about a year or two too early (and I am taking the fact that it won't be out until next year into account).

Drumjim85

Jun 11, 2008, 12:48 PM

ilflyya

Jun 11, 2008, 12:49 PM

I'm just a layman, but is 9GB of disk space for the operating system (for mac) pretty big? I assume that this will over take the existing disk space that regular leopard already uses right? I do want to say that it is awesome that the minimum Ram is 512MB! Doesn't Vista take like 4GB if you want it to run correctly (on pc)?

elppa

Jun 11, 2008, 12:49 PM

Apple made their Java 6 preview releases intel 64 bit only.

I (quite naïvely) presumed that for the final release PPC and 32 bit intel machines would be supported.

They weren't. The final release was intel 64 bit only.

If Apple is saying intel only for the developer previews then don't expect it to magically change for the final version. There is no logical reason to do this. If they were intending on supporting PPC they would support it in the preview.

PPC support is gone and won't be coming back, so please don't hang onto a hope that it will as you will only be disappointed. A precedent has been set.

mickeymikey

Jun 11, 2008, 12:50 PM

I keep up with MR daily, and I generally enjoy the "rumors" posted here, but this headline is pure shock value. Just because Apple chooses to release a VERY EARY, developer only, version of an OS that isn't due in a year for a single processing platform does not mean the PPC will not be included in the final release.

Come on guys - dial back the drama. Sure, PPC will be dropped at some point as many have noted, but this release does not necessarily guarantee that it will occur with Snow Leopard. I bet this release doesn't have a full driver pack for printers, camera, etc. either. Does that mean Apple is going to drop support for HP and Canon? Why not use that as a headline...

Certainly, Snow Leopard could mean the end of the PPC era, but with the current facts this is not known for sure. As such, such a strong assertion in the headline of this article is in poor taste.

Composed on PowerMac G5...for the record.

jocknerd

Jun 11, 2008, 12:51 PM

Snow Leopard is going to be a leaner, faster version of Leopard.

1. Apple drops PPC support.
2. Recompiles everything for Intel only. Resulting binaries are smaller because they don't have to create Universal binaries.
3. Sell it for $129.
4. Profit.

twoodcc

Jun 11, 2008, 12:52 PM

well this will make a lot of people angry. we'll see if they add support later

milo

Jun 11, 2008, 12:52 PM

The PPC user's also need to remember that Snow Leopard (as of yet) is not going to have any major feature differences. So basically this is just a version of Leopard (that currently runs just fine on G4s and G5) that is optimized for the Intel processors. So no one should fee left out (except for 800mhz and slower G4s). And as others have stated, this is just the next step that was bound to happen.

It won't have major features that the user will see, but it will have major changes under the hood. Code written for the new OS optimizations won't run on 10.5, meaning that users won't be able to run the latest apps.

On the bright side, apple has had a horrible record of taking advantage of new things like this, so it may be years before they actually ship an app that uses this stuff.

It is in the computing world. Also the intel transition was announced 3 years ago.

Anyone who bought a PPC Mac after the transition started (especially in 06 after some intel macs were already shipping) should have thought about it more carefully. Expecting Apple to support these machines for the long haul was stupid.

I disagree that 2 years is that long, especially when there are machines sold back then that are faster than some machines being sold now.

I agree that it was unwise to buy PPC after the switch was announced. But even machines bought before the announcement are only about three years old now. Before the announcement, was it stupid to expect apple to support machines for a few years? I guess then it's stupid to expect long term support for machines you're buying NOW?

Anuba

Jun 11, 2008, 12:53 PM

While I understand that for simplifying and speeding up the OS, intel support only could streamline the whole thing, I can't help but feel like a number of G5 owners who had gotten tired of waiting for CS3 will feel ... a small tinge of outrage?
Well... it's Mac. They should've seen it coming. Anyone who is concerned about legacy support should stick to Windows, where surprises are few and minor. When you take the Mac route you volunteer to replace your machine at frequent intervals, or be cut off with no advance warning.

They've been doing this for ages now. I still remember the puzzled look on a colleague's face as he unboxed his new Mac and went about pluggin in his $500 MIDI interface, only to find that the 9-pin serial port had somehow magically disappeared. Those unlucky souls had to have holes drilled in their Macs to install something called a "stealth port". Couple of years later, another colleague unboxed his new Mac and was about to connect his two Apple CRT monitors with VGA cables, but all he found on the back of the Mac was this wide white thingamabob now known as a DVI port. My first Mac was a Mini G4, I woke up one morning shortly after buying it and discovered that Apple had switched to Intel.

Apple wants to stay on the cutting edge, and if you wanna make an omelet you gotta break some eggs. Now the turn has come to G4 and G5 owners to be the eggs.

JG271

Jun 11, 2008, 12:53 PM

Hm. I suppose it is good for some of us, but the people who bought Powermac G5s must be annoyed.
Quite soon for a new operating system, my mac mini shipped with tiger and leopard in november, any idea when this will be released? Macworld? Or this time next year?

kbmb

Jun 11, 2008, 12:53 PM

Such a crying shame. I got into Macs in the G3 days and I always see the PPC macs as "true macs". Now they're useless. ouch.

Um.....so you are moving over to Windows right now correct? Since right now you are saying your machine is useless. Right?

C'mon, Snow Leopard is the....wait for it....FUTURE of OS X. Nothing that Snow Leopard does is going to change how your machine runs today, right now, as I type.

Even after Snow Leopard comes out, you can keep on running Tiger, like many people do. Or even Leopard. Snow Leopard isn't going to make your current machine go away.

-Kevin

Xavier

Jun 11, 2008, 12:53 PM

I dont see the big deal. If you bought a PPC in 2006, then that computer will last you many good years later running leopard.

In that mean time, you can get yourself a new (better) intel machine that will come pre installed with Snow Leopard. Awesome, and problem solved. You will forget all about PPC

number9

Jun 11, 2008, 12:54 PM

I have an Intel Mac, but I still feel that it's too early to drop support for PPC. They only stopped selling them 2/3 years ago. If Windows XP can run on computers with a 233MHz processor (which is what I had until last year), then Apple can run Snow Leopard on 2 year old computers.

ESPECIALLY G5s. That would be plain STUPID if they cut off support for G5s.

Hey, reality check--- That 233MHz processor of yours is still in the same family of processors that a Windows machine came with 2 years ago. You can't compare simply running at a much slower clock speed or with only one core instead of 2+ to OSX running on two completely different processor architectures between x86 and PPC. OSX already does what you say XP is capable of; you can run 10.5 on a brand new Mac Pro, or you can run it, albeit slowly, on a G4 iMac with 1/8th the amount of cores and a much slower clock speed. Think about what you're whining about before you actually whine.

I for one am glad that PPC is getting dropped...its the best for the OS. I currently have a first gen Intel iMac, and I'm almost positive that a year or so after Snow Leopard comes out, there will be talk/proof of 10.7 dropping 32 bit processors, leaving out my computer. But I'll deal with it...it's just how things work with tech.

stephan.works

Jun 11, 2008, 12:54 PM

I've found this very interesting article (http://utvv.blogspot.com/2008/06/snow-leopard-details.html) that gathers all the known news of Snow Leopard. Enjoy.

usingpond

Jun 11, 2008, 12:55 PM

Laco

Jun 11, 2008, 12:55 PM

I only have an intel mac so this is probably good news for me if it makes the os better. I just wanted to add one more thing to all those people saying that its only been 2.5 years since ppc thats all well and true and that probably is too early to drop it BUT until it is released in "about a year" it will be 3.5 years or even more...and that in my opinion is a fair amount of time to drop it.

Lil

Jun 11, 2008, 12:55 PM

If it is the case that Apple is dropping PPC support with Snow Leopard in the final release version, 4 years which will be the age of a half decent iMac G5, and a PowerMac G5 which would be as much as only 3 years old is a good reason why Apple doesn't generally suceed in the enterprise too well.

Some businesses depend on machines lasting a bit longer than that cycle. And to call a computer that is 3 years old about useless or expired is something of nonsense and a by-product of this hugely consumerist economy and society we live in. Not to mention environmentally unsustainable.

Of course older machines will still run fine, in fact I am still using Tiger as Leopard doesn't really offer me anything compelling that would change the way I use my Macs. However, I'm also still using a 7 year old Dell which works just fine and whilst I won't be rendering Hollywood blockbusters on it, it's a fine machine to use.

I could understand better if Apple gave it 5 years or so before dropping PPC support (i.e. August 2011) which seems a fair lifecycle but in as little as 3-4 years, that's quite short. There again I see people buying a new laptop as much as once a year (if not every 6 months in one case...) -- what a waste.

If Snow Leopard was the last PPC compatible version, I think that would be perfectly acceptable if it is a release to tighten up the whole system by and large. After all, if this is just a re-compile to drop the universal/fat binaries and voila, that's a bit disappointing.

I'll be happily enjoying my eMac and PowerBook G4 12" for years to come on Tiger mind and I'm certainly not about to scald my perfectly fine old Dell with XP and install Vista.

mreed911

Jun 11, 2008, 12:55 PM

But other screenshots of this preview has Finder showing apps as Universal. If they were going to drop PowerPC support, surely the first thing they'd do is go through and skinny up all the binaries.

I think you misunderstand the difference between PowerPC, the chip and architecture, and Rosetta, which allows PPC apps to run on Intel Macs.

SkippyThorson

Jun 11, 2008, 12:56 PM

When I said they wouldn't drop PPC.....

Forget I said that. :)

It's not as if you can't run Leopard on those. Also, by the time this comes out--realistically first or second quarter 2009, is anything that you used to need cutting-edge stuff for still going to be any good on those?

Those machines won't explode and die when Snow Leopard comes out.

Exactly. No iBooks / PowerBooks / eMacs pulling a Steve-like Boom.

People need to stop worrying. I have a 1.33ghz iBook G4, and Tiger runs just great, and I have no desire to upgrade what already works. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Leopard isn't my cup of tea. I won't need any of the new features, I have my own version of Spaces which is just fine, I have the wallpaper, and my 2D dock is alright by me. Bugs from Leopard? I'll pass. I'm keeping Tiger, which has proven itself to be very stable and near bug-less after all it's time out in the open.

This however makes Leopard 10.5 seem like a filler to go from 10.4 to 10.6... All the new features and bugs makes it look like it was just pushed out to keep schedule between OS's. Like they just released what they had of the to-be 10.6 at the time, and they're fixing it as they continue towards 10.6.. Like the road leads you here, the end kind of thing for PPC, and still available for Intel if you'd like, yet a cleaner "snappier" version is on it's way.

I can't explain my impression too well. Like it's a filler - a rather less than Apple-typical transition point between 2 great OS's.

unwinded

Jun 11, 2008, 12:56 PM

Nope. Just Dual Cores and Quad Cores (2xDual Cores).
I have the 2.0GHz Dual Core PowerMac G5, the last gen of PowerMacs, and I have to say I think this is BS to drop PPC G5 support. If anything, drop G4 support. The Dual Core G5 PPC is a perfectly capable chip to run what ever Apple wants to throw at it.

Well G5 was only around for three years. G4 was available in the Mac Mini, eMac, and PowerBook/iMac along side G5 iMacs and PowerMacs for most of that time too. With laptops outselling everything else for the past five years or so, I'd be willing to wager that the G4 outsold the G5 in that time period. Wouldn't make much sense to drop G4 support and continue with G5.

I do see where you guys are coming from though. The last PowerMacs were 64-bit and multicore. Seems like they would benefit from Snow Leopard....

iMpathetic

Jun 11, 2008, 12:57 PM

The bitching has begun.

mixel

Jun 11, 2008, 12:57 PM

I don't think they'll be dropping Rosetta this soon.. Why would they? It'll carry on working. They don't need to do anything new to it as nobody's doing anything new on the PPC osX development front. It works too well to ditch, I mean, a lot of people must still be using CS2 or 1, or even Photoshop 7 etc. People would be seriously pissed if they were forced to upgrade everything to run the latest OS.

I can see them dropping support for the architecture to give new features and focus to the Intel people but why would they cripple a useful function the Intel guys have been using. Rosetta isn't bloat.

It's one thing saying they're not adding features, but *taking them away?* ;)

smartalic34

Jun 11, 2008, 12:57 PM

this was going to happen eventually... and if it has to happen in order to make Mac OS X better for the future, than so be it. PPC macs are still supported, and still have Leopard. no new features are in 10.6, so I don't see what all the fuss is about.

the dropping of PPC code is part of what is making 10.6 faster, so keeping PPC support sort of defeats the purpose

although I feel bad for the quad G5 owners...

Quillz

Jun 11, 2008, 12:58 PM

I think it's a good move. The newest G5 computers are at this point nearly three years old. That's ancient in the tech world. Also, Snow Leopard will not add many end-user features, so it's not like the G5 is missing out on anything.

milo

Jun 11, 2008, 12:59 PM

Well... it's Mac. They should've seen it coming. Anyone who is concerned about legacy support should stick to Windows, where surprises are few and minor. When you take the Mac route you volunteer to replace your machine at frequent intervals, or be cut off with no advance warning.

They've been doing this for ages now. I still remember the puzzled look on a colleague's face as he unboxed his new Mac and went about pluggin in his $500 MIDI interface, only to find that the 9-pin serial port had somehow magically disappeared. Those unlucky souls had to have holes drilled in their Macs to install something called a "stealth port". Couple of years later, another colleague unboxed his new Mac and was about to connect his two Apple CRT monitors with VGA cables, but all he found on the back of the Mac was this wide white thingamabob now known as a DVI port. My first Mac was a Mini G4, I woke up one morning shortly after buying it and discovered that Apple had switched to Intel.

Apple wants to stay on the cutting edge, and if you wanna make an omelet you gotta break some eggs. Now the turn has come to G4 and G5 owners to be the eggs.

I wonder if it's your intention to talk people out of buying macs?

sebastianlewis

Jun 11, 2008, 12:59 PM

PPC users are not losing support!!! They can still run Leopard, Tiger, and even Panther if they so choose to. Snow Leopard brings no new features to current Leopard users. Snow Leopard is an optimized version designed specifically for Intel processors. Apple will still support Leopard for a while, which means that PPC users still get support. Had Snow Leopard brought some new feature equivalent to Time Machine that will not be available to PPC users, then you have a right feel miffed. But Leopard remains and so does the support. Quit complaining and acting like Chicken Little claiming the sky is falling.

Edit: The new features that will come out in 10.7 is when PPC support will officially be dropped, and that could be 2+ years from now.

Hmm, well let's see... Quicktime X, OpenCL, Grand Central, and Exchange support in Mail/iCal/Address Book. At least Safari 4 will run on both Leopard and Tiger as well, but let's face it, PPC support is not there, Apple's moved on, and both OpenCL and Grand Central will be very important to developers, and if they require Snow Leopard, then developers using OpenCL and Grand Central are going to target SL, not L or T.

Don't forget virtual machines. You can accomplish a lot with those. I wouldn't be opposed to using some kind of VM for rarely-used legacy support. You could, theoretically, run a Leopard VM to run programs that required Rosetta, Carbon or other deprecated APIs.

As for the PPC issue, well, that's life in the big city. It wasn't so long ago that a year old computer was hopelessly outdated. Things have slowed a little, but there's no reason to expect they won't speed up again.

Personally, I like that. It means new stuff is happening.

Anyway, I think the complainer folks obsession with long term support is overstated. Their current machines with Leopard will continue to work.

Running a Leopard VM just for Rosetta which itself is a translator for PPC to x86 is actually very backwards. They're better off dropping it. Only the GUI parts of Carbon were depreciated in Leopard, the rest will probably be depreciated in Snow Leopard but not removed.

I agree, fast upgrade cycles are a good thing.

Sebastian

Bye Bye Baby

Jun 11, 2008, 01:00 PM

But if this is a copy for developers, why would they want PPC code? Surely any new programs will be intel only.

I have a powerbook G4 and I am happy if :apple: really does bring out a kikin' new system OS that does what it says.

jettredmont

Jun 11, 2008, 01:00 PM

Complainers: please try to remember that your PPC computer will continue to work as it always has. This is for the benefit of all and the advancement of the OS.

I tried.

Ummm ... are you comfortable running an OS after support for it has ceased?

Effectively, if I can't buy a supported OS for a machine, it is dead.

Look, I see this as an incredibly stupid move for Apple, were they to carry it forward into the general release. I also would see not being up-front about it now an even stupider move.

If your customer base averages a 4-year computer buying cycle (which is fairly high-rate from home buyer numbers), then a 3-year obsolescence affects 25% of them. But, that's not the killer. The killer is that a small portion of those are multiple-computer households, who are buying a new machine every 1-2 years. You piss off 100% of your multiple-purchase households.

That's the killer: this short of a lifetime would breed discontent in a healthy portion of your casual buyers, but absolute animosity in every single one of your most loyal and consistent buyers.

It's a bad move. I hope Apple doesn't make it, for both selfish and non-selfish reasons.

CaryMacGuy

Jun 11, 2008, 01:01 PM

What is apple thinking???

Apple is making some strange decisions lately...

I can understand dropping some more PPC support. However, there are many very capable G5 Power Mac, G5 iMacs, and G4 Powerbooks. I maybe can understand dropping support for G4 iMacs, iBooks, and even MAYBE Mac Minis (I say that reluctantly).

Another thing...this "Service Pack" better not cost me $129 to purchase. This is what Apple should do:

Free or really cheap upgrade for anyone running Leopard
$129 Upgrade for everyone else.

Come on Apple! Don't let Windows 7 move ahead of Mac OS X (unlikely, I know)

Ade-iMac-177

Jun 11, 2008, 01:01 PM

really??!?!?!
I honestly didn't think they would drop it so quick - thank god i didn't by the PowerMacG5 i saw on eBay :D

ilflyya

Jun 11, 2008, 01:01 PM

Wow! My macbook doesn't work anymore now that SL has been announced! It just won't turn on! It's useless! OMG!

Now, see how stupid that sounds?

chenazhi

Jun 11, 2008, 01:03 PM

,
Is that means the snow leopard system can be installed on a PC ??
??

Joel Beason

Jun 11, 2008, 01:04 PM

already another one ahhh

morespce54

Jun 11, 2008, 01:04 PM

Good. PPC is dead and has been for quite a while.

Yes? I didn't knew that. ;)
I have one 2002 G4 933MHz 1.5GB (with Leopard on it) which I wanted to throw away but couldn't find any reason to do so since it's still working great...
Maybe that would be a good reason... ;)

MHerstand

Jun 11, 2008, 01:05 PM

How is it stupid to buy a machine that natively supports all current applications and expect to get 3-4 years out of it?

It's not.

I know it's bound go happen sometime but it seems like this is about a year or two too early (and I am taking the fact that it won't be out until next year into account).

It's not. Apple will let you use your machine for 3-4 years. Heck, if the hard drive lasts, you could use it for 4-5 years. And Leopard 10.5.4/10.5.5... will be a perfectly good operating system 2 years out. Apple can't take a break from development simply because it hasn't hit the 3-4 year mark yet (which, by the way, it will have come next summer). Right now, they have the best operating system on the market and you can use it on your PPC model. There are very few new features that would be any good without a complete rewrite of the architecture. It makes no sense for them to create two versions of Snow Leopard because no one will be using PPC in another 2-3 years. Again, no one is losing out just because Apple is rewriting their NEXT operating system. It's slightly ironic that people complain that Apple is not letting them be cutting edge when they are, by choice, running a three year old computer (by next year).

I'd say the big announcement that should make people happy, is that even with this new operating system that is super advanced, it will only take 512mb of RAM to run it. Take that, Vista.

andiwm2003

Jun 11, 2008, 01:05 PM

i don't care much if Snow Leopard runs on PPC. It's ok that speed increases and disk space needs get optimized for intel only.

My concern is that this will not affect only the OS. It will mean that software updates from 3rd party vendors could require Snow Leopard and then you're forced to buy new macs.

And I can also imagine that .mac or "mobile me" will require Snow Leopard for certain functions.
Remember: Similar things happened with ".mac" when we got 1 day notice that all our macs have to run tiger to sync our computers. People with older macs suddenly couldn't sync them anymore because apple required Tiger and that didn't run on all old macs. let alone 1 day to run to the store buy Tiger for $129 and update a bunch of computers and the corresponding software.:mad:
Or remember how they dropped imovie HD because Steve thought the new imovie is cool although people needed it and had lots of money invested in plugins. At least they let you use imovie HD but for how long will it work on new systems?

complain about windows as much as you want but we had scientific instruments running on windows 95 working happily in a network with vista machines. and 7 year old software without updates would still run on windows xp.

if apple want people to set up their whole life around mobile me and break into the business market they better assure us that we will be able to use our systems for a long time even if we don't have the newest versions of Mac OS.

Mac OS X Ocelot

Jun 11, 2008, 01:05 PM

Good. I'm glad to see that Apple is waiting for a few seeds to include PPC support. That way they can focus on Intel for anti-PPC whiners and then fix it for the rest of us.

phillystax

Jun 11, 2008, 01:06 PM

As someone who purchased a Powerbook right before the Intel switch, I understand that this had to be done. As Apple continues to forge new paths with the iPhone/Touch OS and continuing to better speed up and slim down the current OS, this kind of thing was inevitable.

But like many have said, Snow Leopard isn't going to have many "new" features but just make improvements on speed and security. I'm guessing many of the speed updates will maximize the use of the current and future Intel chips. Not the PPC chips.

Luckily I just bought a new iMac and Macbook so.....

atszyman

Jun 11, 2008, 01:06 PM

I'm as ready to dump PPC support as the next guy, but seriously. Don't you think it would have been announced if Apple were officially dropping PPC support? Jesus Christ, why is this even a question?

Do you really think Apple would just walk into a PR nightmare like that, having people buy it on store shelves thinking it has PPC support 'cause no one told them otherwise?

So the PPC support is obviously either A) planned to be merged later on or B) up in the air at the moment.

I think we can all agree that Apple is definitely not ruling out PPC support; even if it makes sense to you, me, or anyone else. Please think a little people.

I think this is a fair assessment. We don't know for sure! It was a Developers conference. You'd think they would announce that if the OS will have new features to make applications run faster/smoother it might have been mentioned that these features would not be available on PPC machines. It would only make sense. If I were a developer and wanted to optimize an application to utilize new features in a new OS, without adding new features to the software, I wouldn't want to spend time making sure that this newer version of software compiles as a universal binary if I knew that the features wouldn't be available on PPC.

irishgrizzly

Jun 11, 2008, 01:06 PM

Great news – this is the Leopard we should have gotten all along :D

and for people bitchin' about lack of support for PPC, I hear you, but it's not the end of the world. I have an iMac running OS9 for web surfing it's not great, but it hasn't melted the time-space continuum for running an older OS.

stadidas

Jun 11, 2008, 01:06 PM

Surely if Snow Leopard doesn't contain any new features, PPC users aren't losing anything.

leekohler

Jun 11, 2008, 01:06 PM

The bitching has begun.

You're damn right it has. I have the last rev dual core G5 that's a little over two years old. Support should NOT be dropped on a machine that young.

Anuba

Jun 11, 2008, 01:07 PM

I wonder if it's your intention to talk people out of buying macs?
Absolutely not, I'm just saying there's no reason to complain. Most people replace their computers at <36 month intervals anyway, but those who expected to be able to milk their machines for more than 3 years chose the wrong platform.

FakeWozniak

Jun 11, 2008, 01:08 PM

Just because the OS is Intel-only, that doesn't mean it won't work with PPC-compiled apps, does it? I mean, I'm assuming that Rosetta will still be part of the system.

Nice thought, but try running an OS9 application on an Intel machine running the oldest system that supported Intel (methinks Tiger 10.4). They dumped a lot of legacy folks on that decision.

I'm pretty peeved that Leopard/Rosetta don't have 68040 emulation as that should be pretty straight forward. I wouldn't ask for 6502 or whatever was in the GS as an emulator is better suited for those computers/OSes. But don't be surprised if applications built for iPhone/iPodTouch are not able to run directly on the Mac version of the OS via Rosetta.

dr_lha

Jun 11, 2008, 01:08 PM

You're damn right it has. I have the last rev dual core G5 that's a little over two years old. Support should NOT be dropped on a machine that young.
Sure, but can you quit yer bitching until after Apple actually announces that its dropping PPC support? The fact that the Developers Preview doesn't support PPC doesn't mean the final product won't.

bplein

Jun 11, 2008, 01:08 PM

The dead giveaway for me was how you would have more disk storage for photos and music. This will be an emotional issue for some. Leopard PPC should be good enough for a few years for those folks with G5's anyways. This should help with the Q/A department with testing this and future OS upgrades and more rapid updates.

Will it only support Cocoa apps? That is the next phase to cutting out the fat.

They could also do something like trimmit on install, essentially only installing PPC or Intel binaries depending on the host. Just because they use less space doesn't absolutely mean they are supporting only one platform.

I'm all Intel, but I can understand the feelings of PPC owners.

dante@sisna.com

Jun 11, 2008, 01:10 PM

bmk

Jun 11, 2008, 01:10 PM

Where can we get a legit copy of this?

Don't like to be hard on newbies - we've all got to learn somehow. But unless you are being incredibly arch or ironic, I think your comment betrays a staggering lack of understanding about Macs, Apple, the way things work in general about developer releases etc - not to mention the fact that you clearly haven't even read the prior posts about Snow Leopard otherwise you'd know already that it is only a developer release and that therefore no ordinary mortal can get their hands on it legitimately and anyone who posts it, says anything about it, etc etc will have all their privileges revoked.

If you are joking, forgive me, I'm clearly getting too jaded. so try and make your jokes a bit more obvious next time.

MHerstand

Jun 11, 2008, 01:10 PM

If your customer base averages a 4-year computer buying cycle (which is fairly high-rate from home buyer numbers), then a 3-year obsolescence affects 25% of them. But, that's not the killer. The killer is that a small portion of those are multiple-computer households, who are buying a new machine every 1-2 years. You piss off 100% of your multiple-purchase households.

That's the killer: this short of a lifetime would breed discontent in a healthy portion of your casual buyers, but absolute animosity in every single one of your most loyal and consistent buyers.

It's a bad move. I hope Apple doesn't make it, for both selfish and non-selfish reasons.

Nice math. You're forgetting something though. Leopard will be supported for the one year it takes for the non-intel machines to die out (between next summer and the summer after that - the 4 year mark). In fact, it will probably be supported for a little longer than that since so many people won't switch over even who have Intel Macs. Therefore, Apple will be pissing off no one. No one who has a three year old computer should complain that the computer company isn't letting them be "cutting edge." Any Mac user knows they are already running a cutting edge operating system, and 10.5.4/10.5.5/10.5.6... will be perfectly fine in two years.

Stop complaining.

milo

Jun 11, 2008, 01:11 PM

Absolutely not, I'm just saying there's no reason to complain. Most people replace their computers at <36 month intervals anyway, but those who expected to be able to milk their machines for more than 3 years chose the wrong platform.

That's funny, there IS reason to complain.

And I'm not sure where you get the idea that "most" people upgrade every three years, nobody I know does. Got a stat on that?

And telling people they "chose the wrong platform" sure does sound like talking people out of buying Mac. Maybe that's your intention, but that's the result.

arn

Jun 11, 2008, 01:11 PM

I keep up with MR daily, and I generally enjoy the "rumors" posted here, but this headline is pure shock value. [/I]

Not sure if I agree it's a "shock" headline, but I did add a question mark for your benefit, as it hasn't been officially confirmed.

That being said, given what we know about Snow Leopard, that it's going to be multli-core optimizezd, I don't think Apple's going to waste resources devoting time to get that working right on PowerPC since it's a discontinued platform.

arn

Mac Player

Jun 11, 2008, 01:12 PM

If apple can afford to dump the PPC users it can afford to dump the 32 bit Intel users (which are far less).

Sky Blue

Jun 11, 2008, 01:12 PM

i'm looking to use 10.6 Mail/iCal as our Exchange clients instead of crappy Entourage. Of our 400 Macs we have a 70% PPC/ 30% Intel split. I kinda hope they at least include G5 support eventually, then we'd have a 52/48 split.

sebastianlewis

Jun 11, 2008, 01:13 PM

,
Is that means the snow leopard system can be installed on a PC ??
??

Yes and No. Yes if you hack it and have drivers that work with Snow Leopard, but basically No, and if you do, you lose all software support from Apple.

Sebastian

milo

Jun 11, 2008, 01:14 PM

Sure, but can you quit yer bitching until after Apple actually announces that its dropping PPC support?

Nope. That might not happen for months or a year. If apple IS planning on continuing PPC support, they can announce that now and silence the bitching.

But they won't.

bosskxx1

Jun 11, 2008, 01:14 PM

This should come as no surprise to anyone. Apple has always stated that a typical Macs life span is approximately 3 years. Since the last PPC computers were last sold in August of 06 (the quad g5's), that means that they would be approximately 3 years old, this time next year (assuming they haven't leaked yet).

*Right now over half of the mac computers out there are intel based. Come time next year that numbers will probably be less than 20%

*Supporting multiple CPU architectures is very costly in both designing and testing. This also applies to 3rd party developers. For some apps its not that much work, but for others it involves keeping two separate code bases.

*The biggest advantage of snow leopard is its ability to work with multiple CPU cores. Most G5s only have 1 or 2 CPUs, which would probably see only minimal gains.

*As far as I know, there are no new APIs or Core Services that are being added to snow leopard. This should help in assuring that most applications are compatible with Leopard and Snow Leopard.

Eraserhead

Jun 11, 2008, 01:14 PM

All this currently means is that the current build of the developer preview is intel only. but it may mean that PPC has been ditched and will require to stay on normal Leopard only.

Exactly, I think they may do this, but Gizmodo (http://gizmodo.com/5014251/source-os-x-106-snow-leopard-will-support-powerpc-chips) think PPC is staying.

I'm in two minds on it, firstly the iPhone SDK is Intel-only and the Snow Leopard site says the next version will use less hard drive space (so making it Intel only would easily achieve that). But on the other hand Steve made no mention of dropping PPC at the keynote, and it'd been worthy of it and the Safari 4 beta does run on PPC machines...

Since Snow Leopard is the foundation for future OSX builds it makes seance not to have PPC support as these systems will not be supported in future versions of OSX anyway which Snow Leopard is being built as the foundations of.

You could make the same comment about 10.0 though ;).

Will it only support Cocoa apps? That is the next phase to cutting out the fat.

If you don't want to run Microsoft Office and Adobe CS3/4 on your Mac, they can go right ahead there.

If Windows XP can run on computers with a 233MHz processor (which is what I had until last year), then Apple can run Snow Leopard on 2 year old computers.

a) XP doesn't exactly perform well on its minimum hardware specs, and I've seen machines run on it in South East Asia.

b) XP came out in 2001.

But if this is a copy for developers, why would they want PPC code? Surely any new programs will be intel only.

New programs should be Universal.

Westsider 4 Mac

Jun 11, 2008, 01:14 PM

bound to happen sooner or later. prepare accordingly.:cool:

zioxide

Jun 11, 2008, 01:14 PM

You're damn right it has. I have the last rev dual core G5 that's a little over two years old. Support should NOT be dropped on a machine that young.

Yeah, because your G5 is going to just completely stop working and never turn on again as soon as Snow Leopard DVDs are on the shelf of the Apple Store. :rolleyes:

Apple's not "dropping support" on PPC. Leopard and Tiger will still be able to run on them, and they'll keep getting updates. Hell, QuickTime 7.5 that came out the other day was still an update for PANTHER.

coolbits

Jun 11, 2008, 01:15 PM

So what PPC will run Leopard, Intel will run Snow Leopard... same features just intel will be a bit more optimized as it is now... nothing more...
Same apps, same everything else.

neondiet

Jun 11, 2008, 01:15 PM

I'm still not convinced. The Snow Leopard screen shots published a few days ago showcasing the improved file sizes also showed the Application file types as "Universal": which by definition includes PPC.

Having said that it might not matter so much; as Leopard's feature set probably isn't going to change significantly now for about 18 months until 10.7 comes out. Most of today's PPC crowd will have updated by then as the increasing power of the Intel platform make it an even more irresistible upgrade target.

Der Alte

Jun 11, 2008, 01:16 PM

It was bound to happen.

Leopard will get me by on my G5 iMac until the Nehalem iMac with USB 3 comes out....and cross our fingers maybe a blue ray DVD drive with it too. Then it will be time to upgrade!

Eraserhead

Jun 11, 2008, 01:16 PM

*Supporting multiple CPU architectures is very costly in both designing and testing. This also applies to 3rd party developers. For some apps its not that much work, but for others it involves keeping two separate code bases.

If your application requires separate code bases for PPC and Intel its shockingly badly coded. The only difference should be the high performance code which runs on SSE or Altivec.

*The biggest advantage of snow leopard is its ability to work with multiple CPU cores.

Right now programs can work with multiple cores, and I doubt the improvements in multi-core technology will be a silver bullet.

I'm still not convinced. The Snow Leopard screen shots published a few days ago showcasing the improved file sizes also showed the Application file types as "Universal": which by definition includes PPC.

Good point, if they were really dropping PPC why wouldn't they build the applications as Intel-only...

nagromme

Jun 11, 2008, 01:17 PM

Makes sense to me--all those under-the-hood speed enhancements (and the reduction of app size from not being Universal, which I do believe) are Intel-specific. They would never work the same for two different architectures, and it would never make sense for Apple to try to bring them to PPC, which will be even older in a year. Some (not all) of those optimizations COULD be done in a PPC-specific version, but the cost/time to do so would not be worth it.

PPC owners can be happy: even Intel Macs won't get this stuff for a year, and SOME things, like Safari 4, seem to be coming to PPC anyway. Meanwhile, major new FEATURES won't be coming until long after Snow Leopard. So it will be a very long time before PPC owners miss out on user-exposed OS features.

HailToTheVictor

Jun 11, 2008, 01:18 PM

Three years without shipping a PPC Mac by the time Snow Leopard comes out seems about fair.

iJed

Jun 11, 2008, 01:20 PM

I don't see them dropping support for PPC in this release. As has been said before the screenshots clearly show an applications directory full of Universal Binaries. So either Apple has started supporting another architecture (that is not x86 or x64) or they are continuing to develop a PPC version of 10.6. It would be a relatively pointless act to bother to compile everything for PPC (as a UB) when you were not supporting these chips.

I think the only reason the developer preview is Intel only is because some of the new technologies are not functioning on PPC yet. A good example of this is OpenCL: I believe this is an enhanced version of the C programming language to support concurrent programming. This would require modification of the GCC compiler and support may be architecture specific for many tasks.

In short I believe that PPC support is just not ready for this developer preview. It would be very premature for Apple to drop it this quickly.

atszyman

Jun 11, 2008, 01:20 PM

Sure, but can you quit yer bitching until after Apple actually announces that its dropping PPC support? The fact that the Developers Preview doesn't support PPC doesn't mean the final product won't.

Likewise those who are saying that it's definitively gone and saying good riddance should also be waiting for the official announcement. It was a Developer's conference, don't you think they would have told developers that the new OS features would not be available on PPC machines? Why have them waste money working on getting universal binaries to compile?

Look, I know that everyone's machine will still work the exact same way it did before Snow Leopard's release but it sets a bad example for developers and denys Apple a significant amount of money (assuming that Snow Leopard isn't free).

Why should developers bother with performance enhancements on PPC applications anymore? Will they start ignoring bug-fixes as well? Will you start getting, "our latest version fixes that bug, but is only available on Intel based Macs." as an answer for a 3 year old Computer?

PPC users are not an insignificant install base yet, so it makes no sense for Apple to ignore them on a non-free upgrade.

I'd put money on them still having PPC support in Snow Leopard, it's just not quite to the point of being ready for developers to play with yet.

Gosh

Jun 11, 2008, 01:20 PM

I can see the coffin now for PowerPC at MacWorld 09. Smoke, funeral choir, Steve Jobs trying not to laugh, a'la OS 9!

tny

Jun 11, 2008, 01:21 PM

Yes and no. New applications will likely all be Intel only, so you won't be able to upgrade a lot of your existing applications or buy a lot of new ones. For those of us with G5 PowerMacs, that's annoying. Catastrophic? No. But annoying.

Complainers: please try to remember that your PPC computer will continue to work as it always has. This is for the benefit of all and the advancement of the OS.

I tried.

JayMan8081

Jun 11, 2008, 01:21 PM

I would agree that this is an inevitable change since it's been a while (I think at least 2 years??) since the PowerPC proc was dropped from production. It's still a big change though and we all know how ppl are resistant to change. :)

leekohler

Jun 11, 2008, 01:21 PM

Yeah, because your G5 is going to just completely stop working and never turn on again as soon as Snow Leopard DVDs are on the shelf of the Apple Store. :rolleyes:

Apple's not "dropping support" on PPC. Leopard and Tiger will still be able to run on them, and they'll keep getting updates. Hell, QuickTime 7.5 that came out the other day was still an update for PANTHER.

Say what you will, but my old G4 tower started out using OS 9 and went all the way to Tiger before I sold it. I used it for six years. The guy I sold it too has been using it for the last two and runs Leopard on it (I upgraded the processor). So there's a tower that's been able to run every OS that's come out for 8 years now. I didn't expect my G5 to be unable to run a new OS in only 3 years' time.

TheNorthWaves

Jun 11, 2008, 01:21 PM

Eraserhead

Jun 11, 2008, 01:23 PM

keep in mind that windows vista dropped support for virtually every PC that had been built up until the point they released it.

Thats not true, it'll run on a much older machine if it has a proper graphics card and enough memory. For a start it ran fine on my Core Duo MacBook which was out before Vista.

Bigdaddyguido

Jun 11, 2008, 01:23 PM

Anyone who didn't see this coming was just being naive. Apple said when releasing 10.5 that they believed many people would be sticking with leopard far longer than until they released an updated OS. If the whole goal of the OS is to be super light and highly optimized for multiple cores, its logical that it would be exceedingly more effective to substantially limit the hardware you support. It totally flies in the face of stripping down the size of the OS as well as using it as a stepping stone for 10.7 which will certainly not support 4-6 year old PPC computers.

The only people with a small right to complain are the dual-core G5 owners, a very very small demographic of mac users who, while clearly desirous of a very powerful pc, aren't desperate enough for more power to be updating on the average 2-3 year cycle. Remember, it will have been 3 years since the dual G5 days when this OS ships. Since it would be a ton more work to try and optimize multi-core tech for vastly different architectures, and the fruits of such labor would benefit so few, why is apple expected to do this?

Finally, the assumption at 10.5 support will stop when 10.6 releases is absurd. There is every reason to believe that 10.5 will continue to see incremental updates after 10.6 is released, especially since Apple seems to be viewing 10.6 as a professional\developer only upgrade.

TheNorthWaves

Jun 11, 2008, 01:24 PM

Thats not true, it'll run on a much older machine if it has a proper graphics card and enough memory.

Like I said, it won't run very well though - I ran vista on a variety of non-dual-core machines with "adequate" ram, etc... total *****.

BigPrince

Jun 11, 2008, 01:24 PM

Well there would of been an uproar no matter when they decided to drop it.

age234

Jun 11, 2008, 01:25 PM

As someone who still uses a G5 in a professional environment, I'd say fine, if this was a normal release. But if 10.6 ends up being the glorified service pack it appears it will be, I'm disappointed.

KindredMAC

Jun 11, 2008, 01:26 PM

Well, all I can say now is that you KNOW that Apple is testing Snow Leopard on a PPC based code so that when Intel and AMD destroy themselves, Apple will be like, "Oh hi there IBM and Motorola.... fancy seeing YOU here. Say how about we talk about getting PPC back into our line up. IBM, your Power 6 and Power7 chips smoke the living daylights off out of the X86 chips."

Simple as this.... Kill PPC support, you kill Universal Binaries that Apple pushed so hard during the Intel switch.

Is there a reason why Apple can't trim down the OS into a true Universal Binary that only has one set of instructions on it for whatever chip is in the mac? That way the door is always open to go back to PPC.

And for those who say we'll never go back to PPC.... Just remember how many of us said we would NEVER go to an Intel chip. Universal Binary is the key to the door that opens to a multi chip world.

Small White Car

Jun 11, 2008, 01:29 PM

I have an Intel Mac, but I still feel that it's too early to drop support for PPC.

Who said anything about dropping support?

I'm serious. By next year intel Macs will be running 10.6 and PPC Macs will run 10.5, but so what?

What's the MAIN feature for Snow Leopard? That's right: "Runs Faster." Well, newer Macs will run faster than older Macs. Shocker!

They're not adding new consumer-type features like Time Machine or Spotlight, so what are PPC Macs missing out on? Well, they don't get "faster." Well, they're older machines anway. Who really expects a 2 or 3 year old machine to "get faster?"

As long as they keep updating and supporting 10.5 (which I believe they will) then I see no problem here. Saying that they're "dropping support" for PPC Macs isn't just innacurate, it borders on being an outright lie. This ammounts to "Apple Makes New Macs Faster" which isn't news at all. You'll have to wait until 10.7 before Intel Macs get actual FEATURES that PPC Macs are missing. That's news, but that will probably be 2011, which is certainly not too soon to be dropping PPC support!

Dimwhit

Jun 11, 2008, 01:29 PM

I'm probably really care about this if I had a PPC. But I have Intel at home, and only 1 (out of 6) machines at work are PPC. So I'm a little excited about it.

Eric S.

Jun 11, 2008, 01:33 PM

If true, it's regrettable but predictable, given Apple's accelerated pace of abandoning backward compatibility lately.

Bummer :) Guess you can't live in the past forever :P

Don't celebrate too much, Intel elitists, someday Apple will screw you^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hdrop your systems too. For those who bought the early 32-bit versions, that day may not be far off.

Shin3r

Jun 11, 2008, 01:34 PM

Everyone here is cracking me up. I have an iMac G5 and I am not upset that they are possibly dropping PPC support. By the time this new system comes out, the G5's will be about 4 years old which lies in the range of four to five years that most of you are bitching about. This is the life of computers, you have to move forward for things to work efficiently.

If you decide to keep your G5, guess what? Your computers won't stop working!!! Get over yourselves. So you won't have the newest or greatest, oh well.

Some of you are also making comparisons that Vista will still work on older computers, but you must be forgetting about how we all bitch about how bad their OS is. Part of the reason they can't fix their S@#T is because it's legacy!!!

smartalic34

Jun 11, 2008, 01:34 PM

as mentioned above, apple will always have OS X on PPC chips... for the "just in case" day where they ditch Intel. they may keep labeling everything as "universal binary" because it is just that- but now that they have un-obfuscated the dual nature of OS X, no reason to go back.

so basically what I'm saying is that there will still be a PPC 10.6, but apple will only publicly release and support an Intel version (opposite of the PPC days)

Lancetx

Jun 11, 2008, 01:34 PM

This is great news if it's true. They're doing the polar opposite that Microsoft has been doing with Windows, and they will avoid any potential for a future Vista-like disaster by being proactive like this.

The PPC's time has come and gone, and even the newest PPC based Macs will be at least 3 years old by the time 10.6 is released. And it's not like Apple will kill support for 10.5 right away either, so those older PPC Macs will still be supported for some time to come.

jasonleigh

Jun 11, 2008, 01:34 PM

You're damn right it has. I have the last rev dual core G5 that's a little over two years old. Support should NOT be dropped on a machine that young.

Just about right with Applecare coverage. 3 Years. Is apple going to plan to service all of these PPC machines 5 years from now ? Nope.

Are they going to come out with a big promotion that says NOT FOR PPC ! Nope.

You will still have a nice machine. But as good as it is, it is old technology in the vision of apple. Enjoy it or sell it. Time to move along.

Someday you can put it on the shelf next to your betamax, CRT TV, minidisc player, HD-DVD player and 4gb iphone. (which all still work quite well.)

mr.fancypants

Jun 11, 2008, 01:35 PM

While I understand that for simplifying and speeding up the OS, intel support only could streamline the whole thing, I can't help but feel like a number of G5 owners who had gotten tired of waiting for CS3 will feel ... a small tinge of outrage?

I'm not quite sure why... I feel like CS3 works fine on my G5, at least as fast as my Intel MacBook Pro.

As far as dropping PPC support too quickly, everyone's computers will be at least one year older when it happens, so it won't sting as much as if it happened right now.

If you have a G5, keep non-Snow Leopard on it, no big deal. You don't have a bijillion cores on your machine, so Snow Leopard wouldn't help you too much anyway.

Anuba

Jun 11, 2008, 01:36 PM

That's funny, there IS reason to complain.

And I'm not sure where you get the idea that "most" people upgrade every three years, nobody I know does. Got a stat on that?

And telling people they "chose the wrong platform" sure does sound like talking people out of buying Mac. Maybe that's your intention, but that's the result.
Well, I guess that leaves me in a catch 22 then.

On one hand it's a well known fact that Apple has a long track record of bold moves and cutting off legacy support for this and that at regular intervals. There was the floppy drive that went out the window. There was the dropping of various connectivity (SCSI, parallel, mouse port, serial, VGA... none of this was announced loudly, most users discovered it when they unboxed their new Macs). There was the OS9-OSX transition where they threw out the entire OS, included Classic mode but threw that out soon after. There was the introduction of Audio Units and simultaneous discontinuation of VST support, which meant that users who finally got their audio software working on OSX had to face even more downtime. There was the switch to Intel... and now there's the dropping of PPC support. It's an ever changing platform, and I assumed all Apple users were well aware of (and OK with) this pattern.

On the other hand you're telling me that nobody you know replaces his/her computer as often as every three years, which means - given Apple's track record - that at least 50% of the user base should be upset at any given time. But they're not.

So... what do you want me to say? That Mac is the most future proof, legacy support affirmative, low-cost low-maintenance platform out there? I can't say that because I'd be lying, but I will say this: I encourage everyone to buy a Mac, because it's a great platform wrapped in beautiful looking hardware. Just be aware that it's no Windows PC where you can run 5-10 year old software or plug in ancient hardware.

xamkil83

Jun 11, 2008, 01:36 PM

Um.....so you are moving over to Windows right now correct? Since right now you are saying your machine is useless. Right?

C'mon, Snow Leopard is the....wait for it....FUTURE of OS X. Nothing that Snow Leopard does is going to change how your machine runs today, right now, as I type.

Even after Snow Leopard comes out, you can keep on running Tiger, like many people do. Or even Leopard. Snow Leopard isn't going to make your current machine go away.

-Kevin

Exactly... I don't understand why everyone is so upset about Apple dropping PPC support in Snow Leopard. They had to drop it eventualy and I think it is about time. You will still be able to run Leopard, Tiger, ect... It is not like you PPC Mac will stop working if you can't upgrade to Snow Leopard. If it bothers you that much then buy a new Mac.

Jalvez

Jun 11, 2008, 01:38 PM

messedkid

Jun 11, 2008, 01:38 PM

So....

Who loves me now? :D:D

bosskxx1

Jun 11, 2008, 01:38 PM

Is there a reason why Apple can't trim down the OS into a true Universal Binary that only has one set of instructions on it for whatever chip is in the mac? That way the door is always open to go back to PPC.

Not really. The PPC and x86 architecture are very different. PPC uses big endian while x86 uses little endian (There are more differences, but that is a big one). That is like the difference of a left to right language (ex. english) vs a right to left language (ex. Chinese,Hebrew). The language could contain one code base (ex. Java bytecode) but it would take a huge performance hit.

Val-kyrie

Jun 11, 2008, 01:39 PM

But other screenshots of this preview has Finder showing apps as Universal. If they were going to drop PowerPC support, surely the first thing they'd do is go through and skinny up all the binaries.

Perhaps Apple will still develop apps for both Leopard and Snow Leopard, but just prepare to move the OS to Intel-only.

ianpyst

Jun 11, 2008, 01:40 PM

Simple as this.... Kill PPC support, you kill Universal Binaries that Apple pushed so hard during the Intel switch.

@ KindredMAC: Universal Binaries are more of a transition piece than anything. Much like the classic environment. They will be dropped and are not going to stay forever, as much as you may want it to be.

@ The topic at hand: If PPC is dropped, i won't shed a tear. Sure my PPC models won't make the next upgrade, but that was bound to happen. They will still work and get updates for a little bit of time at least. And now my intel will be screaming fast. :P

Eraserhead

Jun 11, 2008, 01:40 PM

There was the OS9-OSX transition where they threw out the entire OS, included Classic mode but threw that out soon after.

Well if soon means 10.5 which was the first OS without Classic and which was released 6.5 years after 10.0, but its much sooner than that for PPC.
Even if you take Intel Tiger as the first OS without classic that was still nearly 5 years after the introduction of Mac OS X.

iPave

Jun 11, 2008, 01:40 PM

http://204.248.28.67/~Mini/4.jpg
If it'll drop ppc support why applications are still universal??? (screenshot from developer preview)

Val-kyrie

Jun 11, 2008, 01:41 PM

saminsocks

Jun 11, 2008, 01:42 PM

I can see people getting upset if they were releasing a completely different OS with all new features, thus leaving PPC users out. But they're not. I think this is a smart move. Get people ready for the Intel only era of Apple while not sacrificing anything for the PPC users. And for those who don't need all the extra weight of an OS with dual support, it's an added bonus. Honestly, Spaces and Time Machine weren't enough for me to upgrade to Leopard. But if I start using Lightroom exclusively, or upgrade to CS3 I may have to get Snow Leopard. Having all the Leopard features with added disk space and speed is appealing.

Tasteslikehappy

Jun 11, 2008, 01:45 PM

I think people should be commended for their loooonnnggg and arduous complaints . . . . I suggest that everyone with a G5 or G4 (Sorry G3s . .. none for you) should just complain as much as possible until Apple just supplies them with a new computer . . . That makes sense right? . . . Wait

As a side note i'd like to say that I do think it is a bit silly that they are dropping PPC support and i'm happy I bought a used intel mac versus a G4 iBook . . . Thats right eBay, I out smarted you! Suck this!!!

Small White Car

Jun 11, 2008, 01:45 PM

Weak. I got my G5 in late 2005. If they drop PPC support it would mean that all us PPC users (who were promised the transition to Intel would be slow and tha our computers would be supported for years) will have only had one major OS released by the time we are left behind.

Well, what do you want? The OS whose MAIN feature is that it beefs up the performance of multi-core intel chips?

How is having that really going to affect your life one way or the other?

Other than that it's pretty much going to have the exact same stuff that regular Leopard has. That's what the name is so similar...it IS Leopard, but with optimizations to make the newest Macs run as fast as they can. You don't need that on your computer.

gehrbox

Jun 11, 2008, 01:46 PM

Apple would like all you PPC users to upgrade to new hardware. That's how Apple makes the bulk of its revenue.

Apple is expending resources to make OS X run on different platforms for the Mac and the iPhone. It's seems clear that the iPhone has gobbled up a fair share of Apples development assets. Apple has to trim the load somewhere.

Its hard to optimize the OS for Intel Mac's if you always have to look back at the PPC's capabilities and limitations. The iPhone has special needs as well, but it is making money for Apple where the PPC is not except for the small amount generated for OS upgrades.

Besides I have all Intel Mac's now except for stuff in the closet and a laptop that I use to surf and email. It doesn't need Leopard for what I do with it.

I'm really kind of bummed out that my se/30's don't have an upgrade path to color though :)

MarkMS

Jun 11, 2008, 01:47 PM

Can't say that I'm truly surprised that they may be dropping PPC support. They want Snow Leopard to be an optimized version of OS X and to do that you'll have to drop old code.

Oh well, I still have Leopard on my old iBook.

studiomusic

Jun 11, 2008, 01:49 PM

So my work has 3 older Protools rigs that all use G5's and have 4 PCI HD cards in them... if we want to stay current with the newest version of Protools (which requires the newest version of OSX) then not only will we have to upgrade to Mac Pros, but we'll also have to upgrade the cards (which are $4,000 each) because the Mac Pros have PCI-e...

... kinda sucks ...

Uh, you need the latest version of Mac Pros to run the latest version of Protools... for now!
And the upgrade to the cards is $1700.
Ya, lot$, but for a professional studio... one of my mic pres cost twice that.

They're (Digi) going to come out with new cards before Snow Leopard hits the shelves anyways, just wait to transition until then;)

Eraserhead

Jun 11, 2008, 01:52 PM

Uh, you need the latest version of Mac Pros to run the latest version of Protools... for now!

That's probably because Protools is a pile of **** that breaks every time Apple releases a point update.

Anuba

Jun 11, 2008, 01:52 PM

keep in mind that windows vista dropped support for virtually every PC that had been built up until the point they released it.
Hardly, but it ran poorly on 3 year old PCs, just like Leopard runs poorly on G4 machines, some of which had a 32 MB video card which buckles under Leopard graphics such as the mirror effect on the dock.

Also, Vista was the first Windows version to bump up the minimum specs considerably, mostly due to the introduction of a much requested new desktop graphics engine. But before the introduction of Vista, XP lasted for over 6 years, and the latest (and final) XP service pack was released over a year after Vista. So it's not like people with 8 year old computers haven't been catered to, and they can run Vista if they disable all the bells and whistles and revert to the classic desktop. It will suck, but it runs, which is more than you can say about Snow Leopard on a 3 year old G5.

Well if soon means 10.5 which was the first OS without Classic and which was released 6.5 years after 10.0, but its much sooner than that for PPC.
Even if you take Intel Tiger as the first OS without classic that was still nearly 5 years after the introduction of Mac OS X.
Did it really last that long? OK, my bad but I was under the impression that they dropped Classic in June of 2004 (on new Macs anyway), and in my book Jaguar was the first OS X version that people were comfortable enough with to take the leap and leave OS9 behind for good... that was, what, august 2002, less than 2 years before June '04.

hodgjy

Jun 11, 2008, 01:53 PM

This is a good thing. One of the biggest reasons the Windows platform is so bug filled is because Microsoft has always been adamant about maintaining a ton of backwards compatibility. The result? You can run your 1984 game but the code is a monstrosity. Do we need this from Apple? I say no. Remove the backwards compatibility when the hardware becomes old. PPC users can still run Leopard. Intel users can run snow Leopard. In 2010 or 2011, Apple will release 10.7. By then, PPC will be old and not worth supporting anyway. I say remove PPC support because the code monstrosity needed to support PPC isn't worth the performance hits it will have on Intel users, especially since the majority of Mac users will be using Intel processors by then.

If true, it's regrettable but predictable, given Apple's accelerated pace of abandoning backward compatibility lately.

jettredmont

Jun 11, 2008, 01:54 PM

Absolutely not, I'm just saying there's no reason to complain. Most people replace their computers at <36 month intervals anyway, but those who expected to be able to milk their machines for more than 3 years chose the wrong platform.

You state this as fact. Can you back it up?

Every (admittedly old) study I've seen puts the Mac replacement rate as slower than the 3.5-year PC cycle, between 4 and 5 years. In fact, this is often cited in TCO studies (total cost of ownership of Macs is typically lower than PCs primarily due to the longer machine lifecycle).

The only rates I've seen around 3 years are for laptops (Mac and PC both).

Eraserhead

Jun 11, 2008, 01:55 PM

Also, Vista was the first Windows version to bump up the minimum specs considerably, mostly due to the introduction of a much requested new desktop graphics engine.

That isn't actually true, Windows XP, 98 and 95 at the very least all did the same.

damacus

Jun 11, 2008, 01:55 PM

As far as I know, it's still unknown if the SL preview did in fact strip out all PPC from their universal binaries, or just stripped out all the other languages and such. Unknown whether a binary can lack PPC and still be called a "universal binary" either.

That's besides the point, however. Stripping out PPC for an Intel-only OS *won't* (shouldn't) make your computer faster. The OS basically would just ignore the code it doesn't need. Wouldn't have to read the data in, etc.

All you get for doing that is a smaller size. And honestly, with the size of modern hard drives, using this as a reason to drop PPC support is just making poor excuses.

Personally, I hope that 10.6 includes PPC support. I feel in the end, Apple will allow it to work on PPC. Obviously a lot of the new features that use special hardware acceleration/features would have empty pass-thrus for PPC, but at least it'd still run.

However, if they choose for 10.5 to be the end, expect 10.5 to be the landmark release for a period of at least another 2 - 4 years from 10.6's release. Software written for MacOSX is going to be aimed at the biggest market they can, and that means 10.5 will be that mark for a long time.

Any new enhancements/API acceleration calls improvements in later versions of OSX may not be embraced by software companies because they prefer a larger target market. This is the reason a lot of games for Windows use DirectX9 instead of platform-limited DirectX10.

So, whenever Apple chooses to drop PPC, it'd better be a landmark release with a rock-solid API, because that's going to be the coding standard. Also, whenever that is, they'd better plan on security patches/updates for a LONG time. Again, 2-4 years.

CyberBob859

Jun 11, 2008, 01:55 PM

Perhaps Apple will still develop apps for both Leopard and Snow Leopard, but just prepare to move the OS to Intel-only.

The Universal Binary was once thought of a way to transition from PPC to Intel. Now, it may be the way to support legacy PPC machines.

Snow Leopard and Leopard will have similar features (nothing new announced), so you can develop something that will work on both. But if you want to have your program run on the broadest hardware (including PPC), check the "Universal Binary" box when compiling. If you want the best performance on the newest Intel hardware, check the "Intel-only" box when compiling.

EricNau

Jun 11, 2008, 01:55 PM

In spite of my 3-year-old iMac G5, I can accept that PPC support has been dropped. Since they're working on parallel computing and code optimization, it probably wouldn't benefit PPC much anyway.

However, I can't deal with paying another $129 for Leopard 2.0, for features that should have been included from the beginning. How's this for a slogan: "We sold you a bloated and slow OS, now give us $129 to fix it!"?

unwinded

Jun 11, 2008, 01:56 PM

keep in mind that windows vista dropped support for virtually every PC that had been built up until the point they released it. Ok, true, vista will RUN on a handful of PCs made in the year previous to vista's release - but badly. Don't ask me how I know. With that in mind, having converted to Apple last year, I see things like Snow Leopard dropping PPC support and think "yeah, they still gave PPC a good run so far" - and I agree, they are probably trying to streamline the code. Microsoft's code sucks AND won't run on last year's computer.

Not true. That was only to support Vista's "eye candy". One of the projects at my old job involved finding the slowest configuration for Vista to run on. I had it running on a 233 mhz Pentium II. It was definitely very slow, but it did boot and it did execute the OS.

Krevnik

Jun 11, 2008, 01:56 PM

But other screenshots of this preview has Finder showing apps as Universal. If they were going to drop PowerPC support, surely the first thing they'd do is go through and skinny up all the binaries.

They can't... Rosetta can't function without the PPC binaries.

Which is why I am horribly confused as to why they would drop PPC now when you still need to build PPC apps/libs for Rosetta to continue to function.

Eric S.

Jun 11, 2008, 01:58 PM

Anyone who bought a PPC Mac after the transition started (especially in 06 after some intel macs were already shipping) should have thought about it more carefully.

No one who is thinking clearly buys the first version of a new hardware architecture. And besides, it's not going to surprise me if Apple's next step is 64-bit only, and those who did buy those first 32-bit Intel systems find that 10.7 won't run on them.

Expecting Apple to support these machines for the long haul was stupid.

Yeah, it's definitely stupid to take Apple at its word on these things.

gehrbox

Jun 11, 2008, 01:58 PM

http://204.248.28.67/~Mini/4.jpg
If it'll drop ppc support why applications are still universal??? (screenshot from developer preview)

Because they are refining the base OS and not the apps initially. Once they finish the development tool tweaks they can recompile the apps to trim the PPC fat.

Boot Camp Assistant on my Mac shows up as Universal, but I cannot run it on a PPC Mac, note that it states Intel on your sample screen shot..

Roy Hobbs

Jun 11, 2008, 01:59 PM

ashjamben

Jun 11, 2008, 01:59 PM

why are people cracking on about 10.6 just being a performance update, and 10.7 will be the new os x to bring new features, etc.

i say, after 10.6, bring on OS 11! :)

StopWhining

Jun 11, 2008, 01:59 PM

The amount of whining on here is ridiculous.
You people need to stop being cranky babies

this 10.6 update is coming a year from now the EARLIEST. That means you will have gotten 4 plus years out of your PPC card. 4 years is a lot, if you want more, buy a new computer!

Diode

Jun 11, 2008, 02:00 PM

Well I guess that means intel chips will be here for the long-haul.

apfhex

Jun 11, 2008, 02:01 PM

Dropping PPC support will only really be an issue if apps come out that require Snow Leopard, but you know what, I don't think most apps will. The ones that do you will probably want to run on newer, beefier hardware than a G5 anyway, if you see what I'm getting at? Not to put down the power of the last generation G5s but they'll be outdated eventually. :)
(EDIT: I want to add, yes there will be some new features that PPC users might want too, but it seems like it will mostly benefit Intel users.)

Apple will still release updates for Leopard like they have for all previous versions (as someone mentioned, even Panther machines are still seeing some updates). Your Leopard-running PPC is not suddenly going to be completely unsupported. It's going to be a good OS for some time just as Tiger is now (10.4.11 is great).

If Rosetta were dropped, however, that would cause some issues for me since I still use/need Adobe CS2 (boo for no backwards compatible saving option).

I've seen several people mention CS3 and Snow Leopard but I guess I'm not making the connection. :confused: What about Snow Leopard will be good for CS3? Won't CS4 be out by then (if not sooner)? Is Adobe even going to take advantage of the new features?

Dimwhit

Jun 11, 2008, 02:01 PM

arkitect

Jun 11, 2008, 02:02 PM

Well I guess that means intel chips will be here for the long-haul.

Was there ever any doubt? :confused:

Riemann Zeta

Jun 11, 2008, 02:02 PM

This certainly does suck for all the PPC owners out there. But, has anyone actually tried to install this 10.6 Alpha on a PPC box--just because it is not officially supported does not mean it is ipso facto impossible. If PPC support has been completely dropped, then why in the hell did they include applications compiled as "Universal" on the 10.6 disc? If they have axed the whole concept of multi-platform support and are programming only x86-specific code from here on out, shouldn't all of the Applications say "Intel 64bit" instead of Universal?

Either way, I think Apple is making the wrong decision if they are abandoning their architecture-agnostic stance. I mean, PPC support is free for Apple: all of the tools, compilers, assemblers, etc... are already developed, so making a PPC version is as easy as hitting a button. Are they really that concerned about saving a gig or two of hard drive space? When TB (or near) capacity drives are becoming the norm, this argument doesn't make sense.

Not that PPC has much of future as a desktop chip architecture (the power consumption is way to high), but it seems dumb to sh*tcan the modern idea of abstracted code for low-level x86-only code. But obviously, the reason that Apple switched to Intel is--like it not--the x86 architecture is here to stay. It was here when many of us were born and it will be here when we die, in some form or another. Intel has an almost-complete monopoly on the desktop CPU market because of x86 and it will probably remain that way for a long time to come. Even Intel's own in-house attempt to slay x86 and replace it with the RISC-y IA64 architecture failed miserably and has since been abandoned.

Now, 10.5 drops Classic support, 10.6 will drop PPC support, maybe we can expect 10.7 to drop Intel support...
Har har har. An Operating System so advanced, it doesn't even exist... I can hear the fanboys of the future rushing to claim that corporeality is so passe.

Krevnik

Jun 11, 2008, 02:07 PM

Because they are refining the base OS and not the apps initially. Once they finish the development tool tweaks they can recompile the apps to trim the PPC fat.

For all we know the apps may always show up as universal even when they have no PPC code as far as Snow Leopard is concerned. Or Apple may not have adjusted the code at this stage to reflect SL only apps.

Trimming the PPC fat won't save you a whole lot. Languages take up most of the space. For example, look at Safari: 69MB for the app itself. 3MB of that is actual executable code. Another MB or two for icons/etc. The remaining 64MB or so is localized resources (3MB per language).

For things like Activity Monitor, you save a few hundred KB by stripping out the PPC code.

Plus, as I said just a couple posts up, Rosetta breaks if your libraries aren't universal.

If PPC gets dropped, I would have to assume Rosetta would also be out.

Which has its own reasons for being a bad move. PPC-only apps that haven't yet been updated will be dead in the water.

I can understand going x86-only on most apps shipped with the OS... but not the core libraries. Not yet. You don't save enough to make it worth it. A single language's resources can easily rival the size of the executable code itself.

Anuba

Jun 11, 2008, 02:07 PM

You state this as fact. Can you back it up?

Every (admittedly old) study I've seen puts the Mac replacement rate as slower than the 3.5-year PC cycle, between 4 and 5 years. In fact, this is often cited in TCO studies (total cost of ownership of Macs is typically lower than PCs primarily due to the longer machine lifecycle).

The only rates I've seen around 3 years are for laptops (Mac and PC both).
Fact and fact... maybe my perception is a bit skewed because I'm in the audio/video business where a 3 year old computer is pretty worthless, but at my workplace no computer is older than 3 years -- leasing contracts typically run 36 months so that pretty much dictates the replacement intervals. Anything older than 4 years has already been picked up by charities. The oldest machine in my home is a G4 Mini from '05 but it's been sitting on a shelf since last summer. And don't get me started on hardcore gamers who buy new machines every 6 months...

milo

Jun 11, 2008, 02:07 PM

Apple has always stated that a typical Macs life span is approximately 3 years.

Apple stated that? Where?

And has apple ever had a support cycle this short before? Dumping a machine three years after it was discontinued?

*As far as I know, there are no new APIs or Core Services that are being added to snow leopard. This should help in assuring that most applications are compatible with Leopard and Snow Leopard.

Nope, the multicore and GPU updates will have new APIs. So unless apps code specifically to run both with and without them, they won't be 10.5 compatible.

Yeah, because your G5 is going to just completely stop working and never turn on again as soon as Snow Leopard DVDs are on the shelf of the Apple Store. :rolleyes:

Well, it probably isn't going to be able to run the latest apps.

Apple's not "dropping support" on PPC. Leopard and Tiger will still be able to run on them, and they'll keep getting updates. Hell, QuickTime 7.5 that came out the other day was still an update for PANTHER.

You really think there will still be TIGER updates after 10.6 ships? And even Leopard updates are a stretch - 10.4.11 is the ONLY time apple has updated an OS after the next version shipped. Since 10.6 is basically a service pack of 10.5, I wouldn't be surprised if they do fewer 10.5 updates than they did with other OSX versions.

jasonleigh

Jun 11, 2008, 02:09 PM

Maybe someone will write a liposuction application for Leopard 10.5 users who will now feel a bit self-conscious sitting beside the slimmer, faster, younger snow Leopard.

Or, just download the 10.6 wallpaper.:)

spaz8

Jun 11, 2008, 02:09 PM

Windows is stuck supporting so much old architecture.. we should be happy things are able to move forward. The problem is for ppl that bought macs at the end of the PPC era.. i would be pissed if I got a G5 quad.. I was there way back when I got a 68040 mac a few months before PC 601 came out.

But chances are if you make a living with your computer and actually need the latest and greatest your not running a PPC still or have been looking at an intel box for awhile.

ATM it seems like the ppl that are getting cut out are the students and soccer moms sitting on 4+ yr old tech that claim to need 64 bit PPC support to answer email and type essays in MS word. And basically are on hardware and software capable of doing what you do. If it wasnt you would upgrade to a better computer.

jettredmont

Jun 11, 2008, 02:11 PM

Finally, the assumption at 10.5 support will stop when 10.6 releases is absurd. There is every reason to believe that 10.5 will continue to see incremental updates after 10.6 is released, especially since Apple seems to be viewing 10.6 as a professional\developer only upgrade.

Has this been true of any previous OS X release?

By my reckoning and experience, after 10.n+1 comes out, you get one more 10.n.x release, then nothing ever again. More importantly, after 10.n+1 comes out, a substantial body of software moves to 10.n+1-only support (primarily because Apple's dev tools on the new OS make it far easier to target only the new OS than to be compatible with older versions).

Fact: for over a year it was impossible to build a 10.2-compatible C++ application in the 10.3 developer tools (XCode rather than Project Builder); the gcc libraries were just completely FUBAR until their second update for 10.3.

Apple has a very poor track record of supporting developers who want to support "old" OS versions. And the result is apparent with a casual glance at VersionTracker or MacUpdate: most new-release apps are compatible only with the version of the OS the developer used, or newer.

milo

Jun 11, 2008, 02:11 PM

Same apps, same everything else.

That's an assumption. I have my doubts about "same apps".

Now here's an idea - if apple REALLY wanted to go to intel only but reassure PPC owners, they could promise that all 10.6 apps would run on 10.5. But there's no way in hell that will happen.

bigmc6000

Jun 11, 2008, 02:12 PM

If it's going to be Intel only I'd have to say it will be a free upgrade (much like 10.1). It's not going to add a single thing to a very, very large % of the Macs out there and the coding should be similar enough that any Leopard app with run on Snow Leopard (just not conversely if it's built for a 64-bit box exclusively).

I do think we're quite a ways until we get to the point where new apps are going to be 64-bit ONLY. I mean - if you're a developer why would you write an app that wouldn't run with half the computers out there (or more?)

Also - what the heck are they talking about smaller foot print? The HD free space required is EXACTLY the same - 9GB for Leopard, 9GB for Snow Leopard. I fail to see any HD space saving. On that topic this is only an issue for MacBook and MacBook Air owners - I can't imagine that a MBP with 200-250GB of HD space is down to it's last 2-3 GB and bumping that up to 5GB is going to make much of a difference. Now if the code is more efficient (which it likely is) then that's fine but don't peddle some BS about more HD space when it uses exactly the same - that's, dare I say, MS-eque...

robotica

Jun 11, 2008, 02:12 PM

They should make a seperate copy for Intel and PowerPC. Two disks, each for their own architecture. People would be happy then.:)

I agree, I don't even understand fully why they didn't do it in the first place?

I think they may have done is to further soften the blow during the PPC to Intel crossover.

But yes, they should release and Intel version and a PPC version, i mean after all its supposed to be faster than leopard? well surly that's going to be most hand on older machines with slower cup's and less RAM.
I mean after all these are still mostly capable computers that could be used for further computing enjoyment for years to come.

I really hope they don't drop PPC support because after all these are apple branded computers, we want to see as many useful ones of these out in the wild for as long as possible in my opinion.

If apple truly to want to become the "greener apple" you keep hearing about i would suggest computers with a long life spans would be much better for the environment - oh and on that note it would be nice if they could speed up the process of "greening it up" it would nice to see things change in that dept a little faster. How about setting a true example for EVERY other company out there. Clearly apple is a truly exceptional company with allot of good things going for it, how about leading the way..wait... how about leaving everyone else in the distance?

gehrbox

Jun 11, 2008, 02:13 PM

Trimming the PPC fat won't save you a whole lot. Languages take up most of the space. For example, look at Safari: 69MB for the app itself. 3MB of that is actual executable code. Another MB or two for icons/etc. The remaining 64MB or so is localized resources (3MB per language).

For things like Activity Monitor, you save a few hundred KB by stripping out the PPC code.

Plus, as I said just a couple posts up, Rosetta breaks if your libraries aren't universal.

My point was that they may not have recompiled most apps code at this stage of development. The primary selling point of Snow Leopard is performance improvement for the Intel platform. Saving a few MB on the HD these days is just gravy.

ckurowic

Jun 11, 2008, 02:16 PM

And let the b*tching begin...:rolleyes:

Oooo noooezz!!11!1one!! lol, yeah for sure. can't wait to hear all the complaining. For those that claim only the Intel Mac people don't care about dropping PPC support...I've been using Macs since 1990. I've had my share of PPC's, but its time to move on.

Small White Car

Jun 11, 2008, 02:17 PM

Has this been true of any previous OS X release?

By my reckoning and experience, after 10.n+1 comes out, you get one more 10.n.x release, then nothing ever again.

And what does your 'reckoning and experience' tell you from the last time Apple realeased an update that featured optimization as the sole feature?

Oh, that's never happened before? Well, then why are you trying to base your guesses on past experience when there isn't anything in the past to compare this to?

tirerim

Jun 11, 2008, 02:18 PM

The Universal Binary was once thought of a way to transition from PPC to Intel. Now, it may be the way to support legacy PPC machines.

Snow Leopard and Leopard will have similar features (nothing new announced), so you can develop something that will work on both. But if you want to have your program run on the broadest hardware (including PPC), check the "Universal Binary" box when compiling. If you want the best performance on the newest Intel hardware, check the "Intel-only" box when compiling.

Compiling Intel-only won't make it run any faster, it will just make the application bundle smaller. A universal binary just includes complete binaries for both Intel and PPC.

a_iver

Jun 11, 2008, 02:18 PM

Wow! My macbook doesn't work anymore now that SL has been announced! It just won't turn on! It's useless! OMG!

Now, see how stupid that sounds?

Well listen to this. Just because it's common in a corporation to replace hundreds of computers every two or three years, doesn't mean it's the same situation for users with a home computer, or better yet maybe a student who just bought a computer not long ago. Oh yeah it's still totally useful. Need a new printer, oh, well too bad because there aren't any drivers for you. Something wrong with your computer, well don't call tech support because they won't help. Surf the internet? A thing of the past when you find out that some of your favorite websites dropped support of your web browser. Absolutely it turns on, but what good does it do?

I doubt Apple's this stupid, but if they really are dropping PPC, I just hope that third party developers can figure it out.

ungraphic

Jun 11, 2008, 02:20 PM

So what PPC will run Leopard, Intel will run Snow Leopard... same features just intel will be a bit more optimized as it is now... nothing more...
Same apps, same everything else.

Exactly, if there isnt difference between leopard, and snow leopard other than tweaks specifically for intel based computers, why get all pissy?

Amdahl

Jun 11, 2008, 02:21 PM

Apple needs to be supporting older OSX releases with updates, beyond their simplistic previous-version-only method. If OSX is going to be coming out more often, with less improvements, that means older OSes are getting less support, which is an even bigger deal for PPC owners.

tirerim

Jun 11, 2008, 02:22 PM

They can't... Rosetta can't function without the PPC binaries.

Which is why I am horribly confused as to why they would drop PPC now when you still need to build PPC apps/libs for Rosetta to continue to function.

I think you're a little confused. Rosetta is an emulator: it emulates a PPC processor on an Intel chip so that you can run applications that were compiled PPC-only. Universal binaries will run natively on both Intel machines and PPC machines without emulation, but if you don't want the apps to run on PPC machines at all (as there is no comparable emulator that runs on PPC), you can just compile them Intel-only, and they'll be fine.

Val-kyrie

Jun 11, 2008, 02:24 PM

nikiski

Jun 11, 2008, 02:25 PM

I think you're a little confused. Rosetta is an emulator: it emulates a PPC processor on an Intel chip so that you can run applications that were compiled PPC-only. Universal binaries will run natively on both Intel machines and PPC machines without emulation, but if you don't want the apps to run on PPC machines at all (as there is no comparable emulator that runs on PPC), you can just compile them Intel-only, and they'll be fine.

It is NOT an emulator... It is a translator.

messedkid

Jun 11, 2008, 02:25 PM

You PPC users are acting like this is the end of the world!
You will still be able to run Leopard to ITS full potential on your machines, and it's not like Apple is going to stop bringing out patches and updates for Leopard (that includes PPC and Intel).

It will taper off...sure, thats technology for ya. But I highly doubt that would happen anytime soon.

madmaxmedia

Jun 11, 2008, 02:26 PM

Why would dropping PPC support necessarily save space? AFAIK only the right version gets installed on your machine- you can't clone the HD from an Intel Mac and use it to boot up a PPC Mac.

I can however see Intel-focused optimizations in Snow Leopard. It wouldn't necessarily rule out PPC support, just means you're not going to get as much benefit on a PPC machine.

Finally, I see even less reason to drop Rosetta. There are always going to be legacy apps out there that are no longer actively developed, why drop support for them? (unless there is a valid technical reason to do so.)

zelmo

Jun 11, 2008, 02:26 PM

I've only got two PPC Macs, but you won't hear me complaining about dropping support in the next OS. I haven't even upgraded to Leopard yet, although I'm sure my primary Mac [1.33GHz G4 PB] would run it well enough. I figure I might as well wait to buy a new Mac to upgrade the OS, and pick up the new Time Capsule and wireless n kit at the same time. Dropping PPC not only makes the code leaner and faster, it also gives me one more argument to use when I attempt to convince my wife we need to drop $4K on shiny new Apple computer gear.;)

janey

Jun 11, 2008, 02:27 PM

I mean, PPC support is free for Apple: all of the tools, compilers, assemblers, etc... are already developed, so making a PPC version is as easy as hitting a button.
I cannot believe you think it's that easy. I can't believe you think it's free. That's almost insulting.

It is not free. Who the hell is going to pay for the engineers to support an arch that hasn't been sold for a few years? That's not even counting all the developer/user relations people, all the QA people, all the marketing people..all the third party developers...

It is not that easy, given all of the developer candy in Leopard and Snow Leopard alike (and honestly, there's way more developer candy than anything else, including end-user features).

Just wait until more people are on Leopard. There are so many things in Leopard alone that is insanely tempting and not backwards-compatible with Tiger. And then once Snow Leopard becomes popular, then Leopard will be dropped cause there'll be new things in turn. I wish I could expand on that so much given the sessions I'm attending at WWDC right now..it hasn't even been more than a couple of days and I'm already so excited.

I am completely flabbergasted by the vast majority of comments here, and it's obvious that almost nobody here does any development work. It sucks that Apple is dropping PowerPC support in Snow Leopard, but by the time it comes out it will have been YEARS since, and it's not like you have to upgrade, for ****s sake I still use Tiger on one of my machines. Apple will provide security updates and miscellanea for a little longer for Leopard. Then at that point it will have been like what, 7-8? years since the transition possibly? Maybe even longer?! You actually use computers that long? The computer I had 8 years ago is relegated to a box somewhere in my closet to pull out when guests are over because it's so slow and power hungry and slow and expensive to maintain.

Even then nothing is stopping you from using Leopard still. Honestly I still deal with friends and their parents who are still on the likes of Jaguar and Panther, and Apple definitely doesn't support those anymore.

So please stop whining about it.

Amdahl

Jun 11, 2008, 02:30 PM

It makes no sense for them to create two versions of Snow Leopard because no one will be using PPC in another 2-3 years.

That's not true. There will be people running G5s on 10.4 w/Classic support for a long time. Is Snow Leopard going to be the end of security updates for Tiger?

tirerim

Jun 11, 2008, 02:32 PM

Because a Snow Leopard is still a Leopard! No new feature changes.

Actually, a snow leopard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_leopard) is not a leopard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard), any more than a mountain lion is a lion. :-P

rjfiske

Jun 11, 2008, 02:32 PM

I have two PPC chip computers... a G4 powerbook (3 years old) and a G5 tower (3 years old). I feel for those who feel like they are getting shafted but as an owner who won't be able to take advantage of snow leopard without a hardware upgrade, I say bring on the change.

Those who have taken their G4 tower that used to run OS 9.2 and have upgraded it through Leopard are in the minority. Most Mac users I know don't even know or care about upgrading the operating system. They upgrade when I say they ought to. :D If Apple wants to or feels the need to make a sweeping change for the benefit of many or most, I'm on board with it. Nothing Apple does will make everyone happy.

On the one hand, I also think there's an issue of semantics here. Your (or more directly, MY) processors will still be "supported" as they are now... indeed better than when I bought them with Panther. So PPC's are still "supported" in that sense, which runs counter to the "my computer is no longer supported" argument I've heard in this thread. What is meant is that your computer is no longer upgradable, operating-system-wise. This would be a problem if this upgrade was revolutionary, not evolutionary.

On the other hand, I don't think anyone in my camp can effectively say that Snow Leopard is 100% without new user benefits. As has been mentioned it comes with Quicktime X, Exchange support, OpenCL and others. But I don't think these "new user features" can be appropriately sold as "new user features" that warrant a paid upgrade cost. Which leads me to...

I have a gut feeling that this upgrade will either be $129 in cost OR will support PPC's... but not both at the same time (witness 10.1 as an example). Sure it might cost something, but $129 seems steep, even for Apple. I don't think it will happen.

atszyman

Jun 11, 2008, 02:32 PM

Exactly, if there isnt difference between leopard, and snow leopard other than tweaks specifically for intel based computers, why get all pissy?

That all depends on how far down the tweaks go.

If the API changes significantly it might make it a significant effort to compile applications that utilize the new tweaks for performance that will still work for a PPC machine. This would lead to applications that start using Snow Leopard performance tweaks to go to Intel only binaries and leave a lot of PPC users with only their older versions of the applications.

Of course since it was a Developer's conference I would assume that a drop of PPC support might have been reported to the developers since if there are issues with coding to make it compile universally, and they are intending the app to be Snow Leopard only, then the effort spent on doing the PPC work is money wasted.

Dimwhit

Jun 11, 2008, 02:33 PM

If PPC support has been completely dropped, then why in the hell did they include applications compiled as "Universal" on the 10.6 disc? If they have axed the whole concept of multi-platform support and are programming only x86-specific code from here on out, shouldn't all of the Applications say "Intel 64bit" instead of Universal?

Probably because they're still in the early stages of Snow Leopard and haven't re-compiled most of the Apps? They're probably still on system-level stuff. Only a guess, though.

Which has its own reasons for being a bad move. PPC-only apps that haven't yet been updated will be dead in the water.

In Apple's eyes, that's likely not a bad thing. It will force those developers to re-do their apps. Has to happen eventually. They'll have at least a year's warning now.

kornyboy

Jun 11, 2008, 02:35 PM

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

I have mixed feelings as many here do. It does seem a bit early to drop it still but it was going to happen eventually. I was hoping for one more release but this being the developers preview doesn't necessairly mean it will be dropped in the final version.

hughyboy101

Jun 11, 2008, 02:35 PM

i think that they will include two versions of snow leopard one for $89 for intel macs and $129 for powerpc machines makes sense not to piss off early adopters of the mac

C-Dubs

Jun 11, 2008, 02:37 PM

while everyone else is venting, i might as well throw in my two cents too

If you read the press release for snow leopard, it doesn't add features- its supposed to re-lay the foundation for the operating system and make it leaner and faster than it currently is. We all know that currently, OS 10.5 is running for both PPC and INTEL CPU's, and while that will appease those G5 owners and others with older Macs, it's obviously a handicap for the mac OS to have to support two different CPU types.

So even though it ticks off all the PPC users, I think 10.6 will be a great improvement over 10.5 in stability and speed, and finalize the transistion from PPC to Intel only. And since this is the first seed, don't expect 10.6 to come out for at least another year, and between now and then, all those who really, really want 10.6 can save up for a new Intel Mac when 10.6 is released. Not to mention that by the time 10.6 comes out, it would be totally worth upgrading a PPC Mac to a Intel- they'll be running circles around your G5 =)

jettredmont

Jun 11, 2008, 02:38 PM

And what does your 'reckoning and experience' tell you from the last time Apple realeased an update that featured optimization as the sole feature?

Oh, that's never happened before? Well, then why are you trying to base your guesses on past experience when there isn't anything in the past to compare this to?

1. Optimization is not Snow Leopard's sole feature. The primary features outlines are developer-centric new APIs. The tagline is faster and smaller. Even with all that, there are user-visible features to Snow Leopard, they just aren't the focus.

2. 10.1 was solely performance. There were no 10.0.x releases after 10.1 came out. Nyah.

3. The claim I was responding to was:

Finally, the assumption at 10.5 support will stop when 10.6 releases is absurd. There is every reason to believe that 10.5 will continue to see incremental updates after 10.6 is released, especially since Apple seems to be viewing 10.6 as a professional\developer only upgrade.

While there isn't a direct match for the 10.6 situation historically, every reasonably close match points to Apple not releasing Leopard point releases after 10.6 comes out. If 10.6 drops PPC support, it is an organizational cost-saving effort (which in turn allows them to concentrate on optimizing for Intel). Continuing 10.5.x support takes away all cost savings and removes the ability for Apple to concentrate on Intel. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that they will do so.

Again, this is all hypothetical, as Apple hasn't announced anything. If they do move forward with a non-PPC 10.6, though, I believe it is highly unlikely that PPC users will see more than one wrap-it-up point release of Leopard.

rjfiske

Jun 11, 2008, 02:39 PM

That's not true. There will be people running G5s on 10.4 w/Classic support for a long time. Is Snow Leopard going to be the end of security updates for Tiger?

If people are using 10.4 with Classic, then they have no use for Leopard or its cousin Snow Leopard, do they? What's the problem?

Leopard wasn't the end of security updates for Tiger. Tiger wasn't the end of security updates for Panther. Granted they were MUCH more rare, but they were still there. Apple.com currently has support pages going back to OS9. And the fact that Apple knows many of its users CAN'T upgrade to Snow Leopard even if they wanted to, this leads me to believe that Apple will be more aggressive than they have been in the past in supporting the soon-to-be-"outdated" Papa Leopard.

Amdahl

Jun 11, 2008, 02:39 PM

Hell, QuickTime 7.5 that came out the other day was still an update for PANTHER.

No, that was an update for iTunes. Apple is perfectly happy to issue updates for 10.3 when it keeps iTunes money flowing, yet they no longer issue security updates for 10.3 at all.

Anuba

Jun 11, 2008, 02:41 PM

That isn't actually true, Windows XP, 98 and 95 at the very least all did the same.
Bumped up the minimum specs considerably?

Not that I even consider the ancient 3.11 to be part of this equation, but Win95 ran on any stinky old 486. Win98 was essentially Win95 with IE included so that's not even an issue. WinME was Win98 with dementia. Win2K was WinNT. WinXP was Win2K with a butt ugly skin. At no point during this period, which covered 386, 486, Pentium I, II, II, IV, Pentium M and Core 2, did I or anyone in my vicinity ever install a new Windows version and go "dang! This here machine can't handle this new fangled OS". Being able to install the OS was a given back then, the only thing that had people worried about system requirements were the latest games. Each version may have required a tad more RAM than the last, but video hardware requirements were virtually non-existent as Windows only used a fraction of those resources due to its sad old graphics engine.

If those versions represented one flight of stairs each, Vista was an elevator ride to the 52nd floor. OS install size jumped from 1 GB to 12 GB. Tons more graphics and fx, full use of video hardware, new RAM handling, SuperFetch... all very poorly optimized of course.

jettredmont

Jun 11, 2008, 02:42 PM

Exactly, if there isnt difference between leopard, and snow leopard other than tweaks specifically for intel based computers, why get all pissy?

Because there are significant new APIs in Snow Leopard, which directly benefit developers (by design, obviously). New apps will only support Snow Leopard, which means they will only support Intel. From the developer's perspective, they need to choose between taking advantage of the speed optimizations inherent in the new APIs and selling to the wider PPC user base.

atszyman

Jun 11, 2008, 02:42 PM

1. Optimization is not Snow Leopard's sole feature. The primary features outlines are developer-centric new APIs. The tagline is faster and smaller. Even with all that, there are user-visible features to Snow Leopard, they just aren't the focus.

2. 10.1 was solely performance. There were no 10.0.x releases after 10.1 came out. Nyah.

3. The claim I was responding to was:

While there isn't a direct match for the 10.6 situation historically, every reasonably close match points to Apple not releasing Leopard point releases after 10.6 comes out. If 10.6 drops PPC support, it is an organizational cost-saving effort (which in turn allows them to concentrate on optimizing for Intel). Continuing 10.5.x support takes away all cost savings and removes the ability for Apple to concentrate on Intel. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that they will do so.

Again, this is all hypothetical, as Apple hasn't announced anything. If they do move forward with a non-PPC 10.6, though, I believe it is highly unlikely that PPC users will see more than one wrap-it-up point release of Leopard.

This only goes to show that we don't know that they are dropping PPC support. If Apple is dropping PPC and expects developers to utilize the new API why not tell them that the OS loses PPC support so that apps that are now possible due to performance enhancements don't waste time and money working to make sure PPC compatibility is there? You'd think that would be information that developers might want to know.