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MacRumors
Dec 9, 2003, 02:32 AM
CNet reports (http://news.com.com/2100-1027_3-5117275.html) on the iHollywood Forum's Music 2.0 conference that took place on Monday.

According to the article, Apple's is up to 20 Million songs sold via the iTunes Music Store. (Apple was at 13 million songs (http://www.macrumors.com/events/musicevent2003.html) as of October 16th.) Peter Lowe, Apple's Director of Marketing, also reported that 45% of songs from iTunes have been in the form of albums.

Some interesting statistics from the NPD Group showed that the average iTunes customer bought 49 songs during the first four months of the iTunes Music Store's operation, which comes out to twice the purchasing pattern of the average teenager over the same time period.

alset
Dec 9, 2003, 02:48 AM
Happy to add to those stats. I've purchased about thirty songs, just tonight (I love the new gift certificate plan - they were all on a b-day present). I figure I have purchased over 125 tracks, total. Maybe 150. Apple might really have a shot at hitting 100mill... keep your fingers crossed.

How many total tracks have other MR users purchased?

Dan

edit: typo in the original article... "According to the article, Apple's is up"

bennyek
Dec 9, 2003, 02:50 AM
is this below or above their goal??

Sayhey
Dec 9, 2003, 02:54 AM
Twenty million is a great stat, but it doesn't say anything about how many are on each platform. I'm curious how this will jump when the advertising from Pepsi and Macdonalds (?) kicks in.

Oh, and I loved this quote:

The Macintosh audience may not be representative of the larger market, however, since Apple buyers tend to have higher incomes and greater technological sophistication than the PC audience as a whole, and have previously had less access to the free file-swapping services.

sethypoo
Dec 9, 2003, 02:54 AM
Wow, this is great! Yay for Apple Computer.

eric67
Dec 9, 2003, 02:56 AM
so the contract with Pepsi will represent equivalent of 3 years iTMS activity!!!!!
really good Apple

sethypoo
Dec 9, 2003, 02:57 AM
Originally posted by alset

How many total tracks have other MR users purchased?

Dan


Hey Dan, check out my Biggest Purchased Music thread here at MR. Just a hint, you know, since you were curious how many songs other MR members have purchased.

Here is the thread:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48033&highlight=purchased+music

simX
Dec 9, 2003, 02:58 AM
That's about 1 million songs a week (7 weeks until now, 7,000,000 songs sold in that period of time). So it seems like the iTMS is getting more popular, probably because of the PC version being released (IIRC, it was at about a 600,000 song per week rate before iTunes for PC came out).

Sunrunner
Dec 9, 2003, 03:10 AM
I am betting that the trand line is going to keep curving up as PC users catch on to ITMS. The big rush is going to come after the planned ad blitzes and giveaways from McDs and Pepsi .... this is gonna be good.

arn
Dec 9, 2003, 03:12 AM
apple's goal was 100million in the first year

arn

manitoubalck
Dec 9, 2003, 03:20 AM
Originally posted by Sayhey
since Apple buyers tend to have higher incomes and greater technological sophistication than the PC audience as a whole

Them's Fighting words. One may argue that apple customers have a lower technological sophistication than x86 users, hence their computers only come pre constructed, with everything already installed ready to used. No computing knowlege required. Apple could gain significant market share by sell in barebone, headless systems, (2 or 1 procs, 1 case and a motherboard) thus not pricing themselves out of the mass market.

However, Well done to the ITMS, even though when it comes to Australia, I won't touch it with a 40ft pole. (Big fan, of free downloads and Real CD's)

hokka
Dec 9, 2003, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by manitoubalck
Them's Fighting words. One may argue that apple customers have a lower technological sophistication than x86 users, hence their computers only come pre constructed, with everything already installed ready to used. No computing knowlege required. Apple could gain significant market share by sell in barebone, headless systems, (2 or 1 procs, 1 case and a motherboard) thus not pricing themselves out of the mass market.

However, Well done to the ITMS, even though when it comes to Australia, I won't touch it with a 40ft pole. (Big fan, of free downloads and Real CD's)

Technological sophistacation is different than "look my schick car (computer) mate, 10" exhaust witsch can go from 1 to a hundread in schix scheconds, and my scheck schtereo by kenwood is scha schitz" crowd my friend, but then again people of Adelaide probably is a bit behind ;o)

Be able to tinker you comfuser does not mean you are technological sophisticated, it's the quiet opposite.

winmacguy
Dec 9, 2003, 04:02 AM
Originally posted by manitoubalck
Them's Fighting words. One may argue that apple customers have a lower technological sophistication than x86 users, hence their computers only come pre constructed, with everything already installed ready to used. No computing knowlege required. Apple could gain significant market share by sell in barebone, headless systems, (2 or 1 procs, 1 case and a motherboard) thus not pricing themselves out of the mass market.

However, Well done to the ITMS, even though when it comes to Australia, I won't touch it with a 40ft pole. (Big fan, of free downloads and Real CD's)

One could argue that indeed, but as a PC WinXP owner an Mac operator myself I would say that your statement is probably untrue.

I have a pretty good working knowledge of Apple from a production point of view and a home user PC from a hobbyist point of view although I wouldnt say that I could build my own PC.

I would have to say that computer user knowledge for the individual would come down to that respective individuals own desire to learn about either operating system .

This is not based on whether one is pre installed or easier to use than the other. I converted over to Mac in 2000 when studying graphic design while still owning a PC running win98.

I found the learning experince challenging to learn the OS 9 operating system and found that I also prefered the OS9 system compared to Win 98. I have since used OS10.2 in a production set up after getting familiar with it and found that it is the system I would prefer to use.

I havent had a chance to Use Panther yet. It is not necessarily faster but I prefer it all round as a more stable operating system and just a preference from a user point of view.

manitoubalck
Dec 9, 2003, 04:22 AM
Originally posted by hokka
but then again people of Adelaide probably is a bit behind ;o)
Brave words form a person who keeps their location un-disclosed.

winmacguy
Dec 9, 2003, 04:35 AM
Originally posted by Macrumors
CNet reports (http://news.com.com/2100-1027_3-5117275.html) on the iHollywood Forum's Music 2.0 conference that took place on Monday.

According to the article, Apple's is up to 20 Million songs sold via the iTunes Music Store. (Apple was at 13 million songs (http://www.macrumors.com/events/musicevent2003.html) as of October 16th.) Peter Lowe, Apple's Director of Marketing, also reported that 45% of songs from iTunes have been in the form of albums.

Some interesting statistics from the NPD Group showed that the average iTunes customer bought 49 songs during the first four months of the iTunes Music Store's operation, which comes out to twice the purchasing pattern of the average teenager over the same time period.

Roll on iTMS for Australia and New Zealand and the rest of the world!

MattG
Dec 9, 2003, 05:11 AM
This is great! Glad to know I was a part of it :)

Analog Kid
Dec 9, 2003, 05:13 AM
Originally posted by manitoubalck
Them's Fighting words. One may argue that apple customers have a lower technological sophistication than x86 users, hence their computers only come pre constructed, with everything already installed ready to used. No computing knowlege required. Apple could gain significant market share by sell in barebone, headless systems, (2 or 1 procs, 1 case and a motherboard) thus not pricing themselves out of the mass market.

I see two distinct sets of users-- those who don't want to know what's under the hood and just want a solution that works and is easy to understand and those who have the technical sophistication to appreciate good execution.

I suspect the article was referring to the folks who have a digital camera and other gadgets and use the Mac because it brings them all together. "Tinkerers" are a different set.

I think the reason iTMS has been successful is because it works smoothly, and those who are considered "technically sophisticated" because they have lots of electronic gadgets like iPods can feed their cravings without having to fight the technology.

Sabenth
Dec 9, 2003, 05:33 AM
40 foot pole god god..


good to see some info on what is happening bring on the roll out around the globe

pkradd
Dec 9, 2003, 05:39 AM
"Apple's goal was 100 million the first year"


Hogwash.

SJ has never been quoted as saying how many downloads they expect. Please provide a link to this statement or statements. I've listened to every anaylist webcast and Apple has never given ANY indication of how many downloads they expect. They never give sales predictions for any of their products, ever.

punter
Dec 9, 2003, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by manitoubalck
Brave words form a person who keeps their location un-disclosed.

Adelaide isn't behind at all. It's "the city of churches" :P

Obviously people who custom build their pcs have good hardware knowledge, but my guess is only a small percentage of users do that.

richie
Dec 9, 2003, 06:05 AM
Originally posted by pkradd
"Apple's goal was 100 million the first year"

Hogwash. Apple never made any predictions of sales.

Sounds like a troll to me :eek:

Steve Jobs trolling during the Windows iTunes announcement, in fact ;)

At this rate, they need to pick it up to hit 100 million in a year, but with advertising campaigns coming up, who knows.

hokka
Dec 9, 2003, 06:11 AM
Originally posted by manitoubalck
Brave words form a person who keeps their location un-disclosed.

Nice come-back champ ;)

Originally posted by punter
Obviously people who custom build their pcs have good hardware knowledge

not really, building a PC is pretty easy, you can do it in half-an-hour if you have all the parts and a few screws - motherboard, processor, video card, network card, HD, CD/DVD drive, Ram, and a few cables which you just hook-up the connectors to the motherboard - if anyone think that's techological sophisticated, he or she has never built one or a idiot who think it's rocket science - which fits my "schick (sick)" analogy pretty well
:)

themadchemist
Dec 9, 2003, 06:23 AM
Yeah, sales are going to slow now that everyone and his mother is opening a music store. But the market will thin out by this time next year and THEN it will be interesting to see who's still standing and who's in the lead.

Trimix
Dec 9, 2003, 07:04 AM
i think those numbers are very impressive. i am still waiting for it to come to europe.
then i will get an i-pod and download 147 songs which are on my wanted-list currently.
bring it on apple

the_mole1314
Dec 9, 2003, 07:41 AM
Here's a question, how many has Napster and Musicmatch sold?

1macker1
Dec 9, 2003, 08:14 AM
20 million is only 20% of 100 million :)

They are not close to their target. By what date did he (steve jobs) say he wanted to sell 100 million?

jxyama
Dec 9, 2003, 08:17 AM
good news. sales seems to been holding. i'm still not sure about 100 million by late april, but we shall see. i'm also curious about other services as well.

as for average mac and pc users... remember that for every one technologically savy PC user who builds his own system, there are a bunch of PC users out there with the bare min. $500 dell machines and using only aol or business executive/management users using only outlook... those are not technological people. because macs cost more up front and are different from PC/windows, it takes a certain base knowledge of computing technology to even think of getting a mac.

i offer no proof but what he said about average mac and pc users is probably not a complete lie.

jxyama
Dec 9, 2003, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by 1macker1
20 million is only 20% of 100 million :)

They are not close to their target. By what date did he (steve jobs) say he wanted to sell 100 million?

jobs said by one year anniv. of iTMS - so that would be late April. i too think they won't quite get 100 million. i'd imagine 50 million would be a reasonable goal, with 4+ months left.

it will probably depend on the following two factors:

1) see how many people are getting their first ipod for christmas and subsequently starts downloading music via iTMS

2) see how pepsi's 100 million song 'give-aways' do. if it's "free" (not really because you will be paying for pepsi products...) people will certainly use the downloads...

machan
Dec 9, 2003, 08:43 AM
he said they wanted 100 mil by april 28, 2004 (the date the itms was launched in 2003).

SiliconAddict
Dec 9, 2003, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by pkradd
"Apple's goal was 100 million the first year"

Hogwash. Apple never made any predictions of sales.

Sounds like a troll to me :eek:

Kinda hard for Arn to be a troll when he runs the dang site. :p

Seriously though. Good for Apple. But as someone else pointed out...what are the numbers for Napster and MM.

I've purchased 148 songs from iTMS and 2 songs from Music Match just to see how easy MM was. (Easy enough to convert them back over to AAC after I burned them to CD so no money lost on my part.) I haven't been finding myself purchasing any albums since most of the ones I want are partials and not available for purchase and that I've found I purchase one track from the album, then another, then another. By the time I realize I like the entire album I've already purchased 1/4-1/3 the tracks of the album making my return on investment of 9.99 somewhat diminished. I wish the iTMS would cut you a break if you've already purchased A few tracks already. :( :p :)

wordmunger
Dec 9, 2003, 08:57 AM
100 million isn't too far-fetched. Their growth curve is exponential, and it's just starting to take off. There are going to be a lot of iPods and a lot of iTunes gift certificates given out this Christmas. I know my kids will be getting them (the gift certificates, not the iPods. I'm not that nice a dad) ;)

eirik
Dec 9, 2003, 09:12 AM
I haven't had the luxury to MAKE THE SWITCH yet. Although, my PC keeps developing a new ailment every week or two, I may have to force the plunge, regardless of my unemployment.

Anyway...

I use iTunes on Windows, and I love it! However, it is one slow, slow beast. And, there are some minor bugs and yes, I have thought of an interface tweak here or there. But, my walk away point here is that iTunes on Windows is slow, slow, slow.

I fear this is holding back even greater adoption of iTunes on the Windows platform.

Eirik

PS It sure beats the hell out of MusicMatch.

howard
Dec 9, 2003, 09:18 AM
well if they sell an average of 1,000,000 a week since itunes for windows came out then they will sell at least 20 million by end of april. total being 40 million, thats if the average stays exactly the same, which i'm sure it won't with all the deals and ads! i think they have a real good chance at 100 million thought they will have to kick there average up to 3 million during the next 5 months

DGFan
Dec 9, 2003, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by jxyama

2) see how pepsi's 100 million song 'give-aways' do. if it's "free" (not really because you will be paying for pepsi products...) people will certainly use the downloads...

Apple made it clear that the Pepsi downloads weren't counting toward their goal of 100 million. Of course, it's possible that with the Pepsi freebees lots of people will go out and buy some songs which would count.

the_mole1314
Dec 9, 2003, 09:28 AM
I find that iTunes for windows slow, but not horribly slow. I get 10x speeds on my 1.8ghz P4, so it's not bad. Plus I think iTunes does a better job at encoding than Real, WMP, or others do for MP3 or AAC. Same with playback, iTunes sounds much clearer and richer than WinAmp or others do.

P-Worm
Dec 9, 2003, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by DGFan
Apple made it clear that the Pepsi downloads weren't counting toward their goal of 100 million. Of course, it's possible that with the Pepsi freebees lots of people will go out and buy some songs which would count.

I'm not so sure of that. I could have sworn that because Pepsi was paying for them it counted. I mean the songs get bought one way or another, right?

P-Worm

Vector
Dec 9, 2003, 09:31 AM
has the aol deal started yet. jobs mentioned that they were going to team with aol music to link everything in that section to the itms, but thankfully i don't have aol so i dont know if it has started.

rjstanford
Dec 9, 2003, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by Macrumors
Some interesting statistics from the NPD Group showed that the average iTunes customer bought 49 songs during the first four months of the iTunes Music Store's operation, which comes out to twice the purchasing pattern of the average teenager over the same time period. Er, maybe its just me, but so what?

What this is saying is that one group of people, "iTunes customers," bought more music than another, independent group of people, "teenagers." It leads you to think that teenagers must be buying more music than adults through implication, but never actually says that (which makes me suspicious - marketing statistics are generally doubtful anyway). What percentage of iTunes customers are teenagers, anyway? Also, there should be some overlap there, if you assume that some teenagers are using the iTunes music store (which, if you go with the conclusion that they want you to, implies that non-iTunes-teenagers must be buying less than half as much as the iTunes-teenagers to make the numbers come out correctly.

A useful number would compare the buying habits of the same group of people, differing only in their approaches (using iTunes, using other online music stores, or using conventional stores). Not having these numbers makes me think that they wouldn't be as impressive as the ones quoted.

What was that Clemens quote again? Lies, damned lies, and statistics?

-Richard

DGFan
Dec 9, 2003, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by P-Worm
I'm not so sure of that. I could have sworn that because Pepsi was paying for them it counted. I mean the songs get bought one way or another, right?

P-Worm

Apple is paid for the Pepsi downloads. However, in an interview with an Apple executive (not Jobs) it was stated
1) the goal is 100 million downloads
2) that goal is from launch last April and not from the Windows iTunes launch
3) the Pepsi downloads aren't counted toward the goal

I don't have a reference for this but it was in one of the articles floating around the news sites when iTunes for Windows was launched.

~Shard~
Dec 9, 2003, 10:00 AM
This is great news Ė itís nice to see the service being successful and bringing in some extra revenue for Apple. Are there any figures out there that show how Appleís ITMS sales have been since this competition started up though? What about Napster, et al? Have sales slowed at all? Those will definitely be interesting figures to see in the New Year, once the plethora of other online stores start up. Then we'll see who will stand the test of time....

spaced
Dec 9, 2003, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by DGFan
3) the Pepsi downloads aren't counted toward the goal


Wrong. When Jobs announced iTunes for Windows he also stated the goal of 100m tracks. Then he said, and I quote "In order to reach this goal, we are going to give away 100 million songs" via the Pepsi promotion.

Can't you people please check your facts before you open your mouths?

jholzner
Dec 9, 2003, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by spaced
Wrong. When Jobs announced iTunes for Windows he also stated the goal of 100m tracks. Then he said, and I quote "In order to reach this goal, we are going to give away 100 million songs" via the Pepsi promotion.

Can't you people please check your facts before you open your mouths?

Took the words right outta my mouth!

the_mole1314
Dec 9, 2003, 10:15 AM
What I think the Apple Rep ment was that any un-used free songs won't count towards the total.

eazyway
Dec 9, 2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by winmacguy
One could argue that indeed, but as a PC WinXP owner an Mac operator myself I would say that your statement is probably untrue.

I have a pretty good working knowledge of Apple from a production point of view and a home user PC from a hobbyist point of view although I wouldnt say that I could build my own PC.





Building a PC is really very easy but to build a good solid working PC is quite a diffferent story. I have put together a lot of PC's and to make it work well you have to find out what pieces work the best with each other.

eazyway
Dec 9, 2003, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by the_mole1314
I find that iTunes for windows slow, but not horribly slow. I get 10x speeds on my 1.8ghz P4, so it's not bad. Plus I think iTunes does a better job at encoding than Real, WMP, or others do for MP3 or AAC. Same with playback, iTunes sounds much clearer and richer than WinAmp or others do.


The speed is usually a function of your computer , the connection traffic (ie time of day) , connecting device and so on ...

jxyama
Dec 9, 2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by the_mole1314
What I think the Apple Rep ment was that any un-used free songs won't count towards the total.

that sounds right. i don't remember explicitly reading that any portion of the 100 million pepsi promotion NOT being counted in the total.

but it certainly makes sense not to count the ones that weren't used... otherwise, "of course we've reached the goal of 100 million! we announced that we are giving away 100 milliion!" :D

jxyama
Dec 9, 2003, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by eazyway
The speed is usually a function of your computer , the connection traffic (ie time of day) , connecting device and so on ...

i think mole was referring to the ripping speed ("10x") and not the iTMS speed...

the_mole1314
Dec 9, 2003, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by jxyama
i think mole was referring to the ripping speed ("10x") and not the iTMS speed...

Exactly. :)

jeremy.king
Dec 9, 2003, 10:40 AM
not really, building a PC is pretty easy, you can do it in half-an-hour if you have all the parts and a few screws - motherboard, processor, video card, network card, HD, CD/DVD drive, Ram, and a few cables which you just hook-up the connectors to the motherboard - if anyone think that's techological sophisticated, he or she has never built one or a idiot who think it's rocket science - which fits my "schick (sick)" analogy pretty well
:)

Actually I disagree, the "average" computer user may not know enough to build a PC. That doesn't mean they cannot learn it (Just like I could learn how to maintain my car). But stating that building PC is easy is an understatement. You need to understand CPU/Motherboard compatibility, Bus types (ATA,SCSI,etc...), PCI/AGP/LMR, etc... You can't just go buy any hard drive or CPU and expect it to work. You need to have a good understanding of hardware, like punter said, and know if the components you bought are going to work together.

As for Apples "success" selling 20 million is great, but whats the margin on a song? I can't imagine its that big?

Also, what effect has the iTMS popularity had on iPod sales? Any?

mrsebastian
Dec 9, 2003, 10:44 AM
way to go apple! now if only my stock would go up in value :rolleyes:

SiliconAddict
Dec 9, 2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by eazyway
The speed is usually a function of your computer , the connection traffic (ie time of day) , connecting device and so on ...

Nope. I don't know about the other guys but I'm not talking iTMS. I'm talking the App itself. Itís slow. But as someone else stated itís acceptably slow. But then I open up Music Match and the GUI and responsiveness of the GUI is at least, by eyeballing it, about 1.5x the speed of iTunes. Iím running iTunes on a 866Mhz laptop, with 512MB of RAM. There is zero excuse for any app that does only music to not run at a decent clip on such a device. This is pure speculation but Iím guessing that Music Match takes advantage of Direct X and iTunes does not. *shrugs* again it works acceptably fast enough but it isnít blazing.

jxyama
Dec 9, 2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by kingjr3
But stating that building PC is easy is an understatement. You need to understand CPU/Motherboard compatibility, Bus types (ATA,SCSI,etc...), PCI/AGP/LMR, etc... You can't just go buy any hard drive or CPU and expect it to work.

worse than that, average user wouldn't know what components you need to make a functioning computer. will CPU/Mobo/HD be enough? video card? etc. etc.

DeusOmnis
Dec 9, 2003, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by spaced
Wrong. When Jobs announced iTunes for Windows he also stated the goal of 100m tracks. Then he said, and I quote "In order to reach this goal, we are going to give away 100 million songs" via the Pepsi promotion.

Can't you people please check your facts before you open your mouths?


The pepsi promotion can help the goal without necessarily counting towards it.

SiliconAddict
Dec 9, 2003, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by jxyama
worse than that, average user wouldn't know what components you need to make a functioning computer. will CPU/Mobo/HD be enough? video card? etc. etc.


Said it before and will say it again. Building a computer isn't as 1337 as it use to be but it still takes some brains to do it.

Building a custom PC is not for the weak. You need to know how to set the various speed settings on your mobo. Everything from your bus speed, to your CPU speed, to correctly setting the multipliers. Iíve seen someone accidentally overclock their CPU when they didnít intend to. So his normal CPU heat sink wasnít enough and consequently ended up with one nasty mess.
You need to know what mobos fit in what cases. You need to know what mobos are compatible with what CPUs. You definitely need to know about ESD. You need to know the master slave relationship on IDE devices or how SCSI chains work if you are dealing with SCSI. You need to know how to read a mobo manual. (It sounds funny but you'd be surprised how confused people get with connecting the correct wires to the correct locations on the mobo or settings the BIOS setting up for the first time. Unlike shake and bake systems like Dell there are a heck of a lot of settings in a off the shelf mobo.)
You should have an understanding of what the 3 types of plugs on a power source are and what they go to. (Granted you can muddle your way through this with round peg fits in round hole type of thing.)
Most importantly you need a firm grasp of how to troubleshoot a problem and this DOES require an understanding of the computers components. If you don't know the components you won't know where to look when the system beeps three times on initial boot and nothing is displayed on screen.

JDOG_
Dec 9, 2003, 11:17 AM
I'll second iTunes being rather slow on most PCs under 1 ghz. My roommate & I both have sub 1 ghz. machines and iTunes rips at maybe 4x and burns at 5x. Visualizations also run really slow.

But on my new iBook it runs like hot butter :cool:

ITR 81
Dec 9, 2003, 11:43 AM
To say we are close minded because the sys is close don't mean a damn thing to me. I for one worked on, built, and programmed on PC's for over 6 yrs before I went to Mac.

Also to say Mac user don't build their own sys. you should see some of lowend businesses in Japan taken old 1980 Mac shells and given them new internals via the iMac and eMac and also OS X and Panther. So yes, if you know your ***** you can do this too and yes it's alot harder then say a PC upgrade which I've always love challenges like these.


As for reaching a 100 million by April I think they are on the right track right now. Because est. they sell 1 million songs a week that would put them at right about 25 million right now. Now think about how many iPods are selling for Christmas. All those new iPods given on the 24-25th will all get used on those days....which means I expect a spike of downloads following the week of Christmas. Also if any new store is annouced over in Jan. then at that point we should see atleast additional 250-500k or more of DL's per week. Also combinding this with new Ads and promos we should hit 100 million pretty easy I would think.

I wonder now how many tracks are on iTunes Music Store now?? It has to be close to 500k now.

mjtomlin
Dec 9, 2003, 11:46 AM
I'll second iTunes being rather slow on most PCs under 1 ghz. My roommate & I both have sub 1 ghz. machines and iTunes rips at maybe 4x and burns at 5x. Visualizations also run really slow.

But on my new iBook it runs like hot butter

Well you didn't expect it to run as well as it does on the Mac, did you?

That's the incentive of running out and needing to get a Mac. ... It's the same app, yet it runs so much smoother under Mac OS X. So there must be something wrong with Windows? ;)

It's a simple, common strategy geared toward consumers who wouldn't know any better; get them to love the app/interface on Windows, then get them to long for the speed/performance on OS X.

The odds of that person becoming a switcher just got better.

MCCFR
Dec 9, 2003, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by themadchemist
Yeah, sales are going to slow now that everyone and his mother is opening a music store. But the market will thin out by this time next year and THEN it will be interesting to see who's still standing and who's in the lead.

Actually, no they will not!

1) Everyone and his mother is opening a WMA-based store.

2) iPod doesn't play WMA and all of the other players won't play Fairplay-protected AAC.

3) iPod shows all of the signs of retaining the Number One digital music player title for a considerable period of time, although the market share might decline over time.

4) Other news today from one of the research companies forecasts that the market for digital music players (particularly hard-disk based systems) will grow by a considerable degree.

Take all of these points and what it actually means is that the WMA stores are the one who have a problem - too many storefronts chasing too few consumers.

If iPod retains a de facto leadership - normally defined as 35% marketshare - iTMS will probably retain at least a 20% share of the downloads market whilst 20, 30, or even 100 other storefronts fight over the other 80%.

nitz
Dec 9, 2003, 11:53 AM
Does anybody know or has anybody heard how Apple is going about trying to secure the licensing deals in Europe? Are they trying to do it European-wide or country by country? It would be great to have on European iTunes Store but getting all the countries' different licensing and royalty schemes to play nice with each other must be a pain in the ass. On the other hand, if you had a iTunes Germany, and iTunes France they could all do it their own way and they could all be happy. Legal can o worms for sure.

Java
Dec 9, 2003, 11:58 AM
Did anyone notice in the article that they had a link to a Napster article that talked about how sweet Napster is by giving music to colleges?

Anyway, I am really curious how the other 12 or so stores (if we count WalMart and buycokemusic.com) are doing with their sales. So is Napster or buymusic.com up to even 1 million yet?

El Dandy
Dec 9, 2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by ~Shard~
This is great news Ė itís nice to see the service being successful and bringing in some extra revenue for Apple. Are there any figures out there that show how Appleís ITMS sales have been since this competition started up though? What about Napster, et al? Have sales slowed at all? Those will definitely be interesting figures to see in the New Year, once the plethora of other online stores start up. Then we'll see who will stand the test of time....

No, that's taken out of context. A goal of 100 million songs being downloaded wouldn't make any sence if they were giving away 100 million songs. That's like saying my goal is to get rid of 10 million $1.00 bills, and then leaving them on your front lawn, obviously someone is going to take them. Jobs said the Pepsi campaign would help the ITMS's goal of 100 million and it will. It is expected that after having the ability to use it for free through the Pepsi promotion, many users will go back and begin to download songs on their own, thus the Pepsi promotion helps Apple acheive their goal of 100 million downloads without the freebies counting.

TeknoTurd
Dec 9, 2003, 12:02 PM
Does anyone know when the Pepsi iTunes promotion will start? I can't wait to load up :)

TomSmithMacEd
Dec 9, 2003, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by the_mole1314
Here's a question, how many has Napster and Musicmatch sold?

Very good question. I havn't heard anything about these numbers... 20 million is nice seeming they are giving away 100 million songs... They will make the 100 million mark. I know I am going to break my policy of no pop when Pepsi starts giving away free songs. :)

TomSmithMacEd
Dec 9, 2003, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by El Dandy
No, that's taken out of context. A goal of 100 million songs being downloaded wouldn't make any sence if they were giving away 100 million songs. That's like saying my goal is to get rid of 10 million $1.00 bills, and then leaving them on your front lawn, obviously someone is going to take them. Jobs said the Pepsi campaign would help the ITMS's goal of 100 million and it will. It is expected that after having the ability to use it for free through the Pepsi promotion, many users will go back and begin to download songs on their own, thus the Pepsi promotion helps Apple acheive their goal of 100 million downloads without the freebies counting.

Pepsi is paying for the songs, Apple is getting full price for it. :)

vitrector
Dec 9, 2003, 12:05 PM
Here is a graph of the sales on iTunes Music Store over time, seady growth, but not exactly exponential or anything. We'll see how things progress over teh next 6m-1year....

El Dandy
Dec 9, 2003, 12:05 PM
sorry, for some reason it was quoting the wrong thing, i was trying to quote Spaced saying:

" Wrong. When Jobs announced iTunes for Windows he also stated the goal of 100m tracks. Then he said, and I quote "In order to reach this goal, we are going to give away 100 million songs" via the Pepsi promotion.

Can't you people please check your facts before you open your mouths?"

(See above for response)

El Dandy
Dec 9, 2003, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by TomSmithMacEd
Pepsi is paying for the songs, Apple is getting full price for it. :)

I realize Pepsi is paying Apple for the songs, but the goal of 100 million downloads when there are 100 million basically garaunteed by the pepsi promotion (assuming not too many people thrwo away their bottle caps) would still make no sense. the promotion is intended to help iTunes reach their goal of 100 million downloads w/out the pepsi promo songs actually counting.

winmacguy
Dec 9, 2003, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by howard
well if they sell an average of 1,000,000 a week since itunes for windows came out then they will sell at least 20 million by end of april. total being 40 million, thats if the average stays exactly the same, which i'm sure it won't with all the deals and ads! i think they have a real good chance at 100 million thought they will have to kick there average up to 3 million during the next 5 months

lets not forget that they havent mentioned how many people are actually using the service at this stage. It is probably only a select group. Considering the potential population base that iTMS could reach after Christmas and with both marketing campaigns out there I would say that 100 million songs should be easy to reach considering even 40% of the US population ( the 50%-60% of users who have windows 2000 or windows XP who havent started to use the service yet) then throw on iTMS international.......

winmacguy
Dec 9, 2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by eazyway
Building a PC is really very easy but to build a good solid working PC is quite a diffferent story. I have put together a lot of PC's and to make it work well you have to find out what pieces work the best with each other.
Thanks for that comment :)

winmacguy
Dec 9, 2003, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by nitz
Does anybody know or has anybody heard how Apple is going about trying to secure the licensing deals in Europe? Are they trying to do it European-wide or country by country? It would be great to have on European iTunes Store but getting all the countries' different licensing and royalty schemes to play nice with each other must be a pain in the ass. On the other hand, if you had a iTunes Germany, and iTunes France they could all do it their own way and they could all be happy. Legal can o worms for sure.

That is what I am expecting to hear about from the MWSF conference Jan 05 when SJ makes his big announcements

jettredmont
Dec 9, 2003, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by kingjr3
Actually I disagree, the "average" computer user may not know enough to build a PC. That doesn't mean they cannot learn it (Just like I could learn how to maintain my car). But stating that building PC is easy is an understatement. You need to understand CPU/Motherboard compatibility, Bus types (ATA,SCSI,etc...), PCI/AGP/LMR, etc... You can't just go buy any hard drive or CPU and expect it to work. You need to have a good understanding of hardware, like punter said, and know if the components you bought are going to work together.


Correct. This is "6-weeks of ITT training" sophistication. Joe Sixpack isn't going to throw together a working PC without some sort of training, but anyone who's got an Engineering degree (of any discipline) should be able to figure out what he needs to look up and how to check compatibilities (hint: they're most often listed right on the friggin' box!) I suspect even an English major should be able to figure it out on their lonesome :)

Your car analogy is halfway decent: it's brain-dead easy to figure out which weight of oil to use and lookup which filter your car needs, but most people wouldn't be able to change their car's oil without assistance or at least a good amount of nervousness. On the other hand, a good number of people who do know how to change their own oil still bring their car in to Jiffy Lube because the half hour spent gathering supplies and then under the car is worth more than the $30 for the oil change.

Generally, articles talking about the relative "technical sophistication" of Mac vs Windows users are talking about the relative education levels. Mac users tend to have a higher level of education (more college and grad-school graduates) than Windows users. This doesn't mean that they know more about how the IDE channels in their computer work; it means they are able to prioritize and choose the right tool for the right job :)

jettredmont
Dec 9, 2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
This is pure speculation but Iím guessing that Music Match takes advantage of Direct X and iTunes does not. *shrugs* again it works acceptably fast enough but it isnít blazing.

DirectX wouldn't help. It is possible Apple isn't taking advantage of SSE and SSE/2 (SSE/2, I believe, wouldn't apply in your case ... only P4+) ... but I doubt it. I suspect iTunes just has some bottlenecks.

winmacguy
Dec 9, 2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Macrumors
CNet reports (http://news.com.com/2100-1027_3-5117275.html) on the iHollywood Forum's Music 2.0 conference that took place on Monday.

According to the article, Apple's is up to 20 Million songs sold via the iTunes Music Store. (Apple was at 13 million songs (http://www.macrumors.com/events/musicevent2003.html) as of October 16th.) Peter Lowe, Apple's Director of Marketing, also reported that 45% of songs from iTunes have been in the form of albums.

Some interesting statistics from the NPD Group showed that the average iTunes customer bought 49 songs during the first four months of the iTunes Music Store's operation, which comes out to twice the purchasing pattern of the average teenager over the same time period.


Shipments of MP3 players to double in 2003
Noting that Apple's iPod and iTunes Music Store has energized the music industry, Jupiter Research today announced that it forecasts that U.S. shipments of MP3 players will almost double in 2003 to over 3.5 million, and will continue to grow almost 50% per year for the next three years: "Demand for MP3 players with hard drives will outstrip demand for those with flash memory starting in 2004. By 2006, the installed base of MP3 players will top 26 million, establishing a critical mass of users that will help spur digital music sales." Based on a new forecast and an October 2003 consumer survey, it says that nearly 60% of consumers in the market to buy a music player will be shopping online for the holidays.

jettredmont
Dec 9, 2003, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Said it before and will say it again. Building a computer isn't as 1337 as it use to be but it still takes some brains to do it.


The last time building a computer was 1337 was when you at least had to solder DIMM chips onto the motherboard if you wanted that fancy RAM thing. Building your own computer has been grunt work for more than a decade.


Building a custom PC is not for the weak. You need to know how to set the various speed settings on your mobo. Everything from your bus speed, to your CPU speed, to correctly setting the multipliers. Iíve seen someone accidentally overclock their CPU when they didnít intend to. So his normal CPU heat sink wasnít enough and consequently ended up with one nasty mess.


Hmm. Last time I did a custom computer all that was quite clearly spelled out in the motherboard documentation. They had a table with one column being CPU speed, then four or five DIP switch settings.

Yes, it takes brains to do it and a reasonably unmuddled understanding of cause/effect and spatial relationships. Your average left footed monkey wouldn't be able to do it.

But it's far from an "1337 skilz".

It's all about reading the instructions and following directions. To me, it's way too cookie-cutter to be enjoyable, and too time-consuming to be worth it.

jettredmont
Dec 9, 2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by DGFan
Apple made it clear that the Pepsi downloads weren't counting toward their goal of 100 million. Of course, it's possible that with the Pepsi freebees lots of people will go out and buy some songs which would count.

Just so you know you're not alone, that's the impression I'd gotten from the iTMS/Windows launch as well. Others, including Arn, vehemently disagree; I don't think it was really clear one way or the other, which means that in April the story will be shaped to fit the circumstances :)

the_mole1314
Dec 9, 2003, 01:07 PM
Building a PC is like writing a book guys, while it seems easy and most people should be able to do it, 99% are to intimidated to even try it.

winmacguy
Dec 9, 2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by jettredmont
The last time building a computer was 1337 was when you at least had to solder DIMM chips onto the motherboard if you wanted that fancy RAM thing. Building your own computer has been grunt work for more than a decade.



Hmm. Last time I did a custom computer all that was quite clearly spelled out in the motherboard documentation. They had a table with one column being CPU speed, then four or five DIP switch settings.

Yes, it takes brains to do it and a reasonably unmuddled understanding of cause/effect and spatial relationships. Your average left footed monkey wouldn't be able to do it.

But it's far from an "1337 skilz".

It's all about reading the instructions and following directions. To me, it's way too cookie-cutter to be enjoyable, and too time-consuming to be worth it.

And then there are the workers out there who turn up each day and log into their WindowsNT work station and do their work, send their emails and call the help desk when they have a problem. ie the average computer user at work who could be listening to iTunes from iTMS and taking it on their iPod when they leave work

vitrector
Dec 9, 2003, 01:17 PM
Another way at looking at the sales of the iTunes Music Store is average sales per day over the interval between announcements of sale numbers...
The Windows release boosted declining sales in the Mac community dramatically!

(edit: changed titles on image)

jettredmont
Dec 9, 2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by the_mole1314
Building a PC is like writing a book guys, while it seems easy and most people should be able to do it, 99% are to intimidated to even try it.

Ah, but unlike a book, it's hard to fool yourself into believing it's not crap when you're all done ... it either works, or it doesn't (albeit often intermittently ...)

Oh,hey ... was there a topic to this thread? :)

bommai
Dec 9, 2003, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Nope. I don't know about the other guys but I'm not talking iTMS. I'm talking the App itself. Itís slow. But as someone else stated itís acceptably slow. But then I open up Music Match and the GUI and responsiveness of the GUI is at least, by eyeballing it, about 1.5x the speed of iTunes. Iím running iTunes on a 866Mhz laptop, with 512MB of RAM. There is zero excuse for any app that does only music to not run at a decent clip on such a device. This is pure speculation but Iím guessing that Music Match takes advantage of Direct X and iTunes does not. *shrugs* again it works acceptably fast enough but it isnít blazing.

I was told that iTunes is slow because it uses the Quicktime API and not native Windows API.

captain kirk
Dec 9, 2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by El Dandy
No, that's taken out of context. A goal of 100 million songs being downloaded wouldn't make any sence if they were giving away 100 million songs. That's like saying my goal is to get rid of 10 million $1.00 bills, and then leaving them on your front lawn, obviously someone is going to take them. Jobs said the Pepsi campaign would help the ITMS's goal of 100 million and it will. It is expected that after having the ability to use it for free through the Pepsi promotion, many users will go back and begin to download songs on their own, thus the Pepsi promotion helps Apple acheive their goal of 100 million downloads without the freebies counting.

Why can't any of you guys understand this. Of the 100 million songs being given away by pepsi the likelyhood is that only around 20-30% will actually be claimed. Think about it, at least 30% of the population don't even own a computer. Then there will be those who aren't interested in music, extremely young children and also those who are just apathetic. The upshot is that pepsi will only be payin apple for those songs that actually get redeemed. Therefore pepsi will be buying roughly 20-30 million songs which all ties in perfectly with SJ's target of 100 million for the first year!

winmacguy
Dec 9, 2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by jettredmont
Ah, but unlike a book, it's hard to fool yourself into believing it's not crap when you're all done ... it either works, or it doesn't (albeit often intermittently ...)

Oh,hey ... was there a topic to this thread? :)

The original tread for this topic was relating to a comment from the CNET article on iTUNES sales with 20 million downloads with a comment about Mac users being more tech savy and educated than PC users


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Sayhey
since Apple buyers tend to have higher incomes and greater technological sophistication than the PC audience as a whole
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

manitoubalck
macrumors 6502

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Adelaide, Australia



Them's Fighting words. One may argue that apple customers have a lower technological sophistication than x86 users, hence their computers only come pre constructed, with everything already installed ready to used. No computing knowlege required. Apple could gain significant market share by sell in barebone, headless systems, (2 or 1 procs, 1 case and a motherboard) thus not pricing themselves out of the mass market.

However, Well done to the ITMS, even though when it comes to Australia, I won't touch it with a 40ft pole. (Big fan, of free downloads and Real CD's)


__________________
ďUnfortunately we cannot legislate against stupidityĒ Honourable Mike Rann Premier of South Australia

winmacguy
Dec 9, 2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by captain kirk
Why can't any of you guys understand this. Of the 100 million songs being given away by pepsi the likelyhood is that only around 20-30% will actually be claimed. Think about it, at least 30% of the population don't even own a computer. Then there will be those who aren't interested in music, extremely young children and also those who are just apathetic. The upshot is that pepsi will only be payin apple for those songs that actually get redeemed. Therefore pepsi will be buying roughly 20-30 million songs which all ties in perfectly with SJ's target of 100 million for the first year!

Well that puts it in layman's terms.

ddbean
Dec 9, 2003, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by captain kirk
Why can't any of you guys understand this. ... Therefore pepsi will be buying roughly 20-30 million songs which all ties in perfectly with SJ's target of 100 million for the first year!

I understood that Steve's goal did NOT include any of the promo giveaways, but I may be wrong.

DGFan
Dec 9, 2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by spaced
Wrong. When Jobs announced iTunes for Windows he also stated the goal of 100m tracks. Then he said, and I quote "In order to reach this goal, we are going to give away 100 million songs" via the Pepsi promotion.

Can't you people please check your facts before you open your mouths?

Wrong! The person I quoted was not Steve Jobs.

Can't you people read posts before you respond?

:rolleyes:

DGFan
Dec 9, 2003, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by the_mole1314
What I think the Apple Rep ment was that any un-used free songs won't count towards the total.

Possibly. He may not have been a very smart rep.

But, seriously, what would be the point of stating a goal and then giving away the product just to reach it. YES, I know that Apple will be paid for it but from the consumer's point of view it was given away. A goal of selling 100 million tunes is a good goal. If they sell 40 million and people download another 60 million for free it would be vastly inferior to if 80m are sold and 20m are downloaded for free.

So even if the Pepsi downloads are counted, they really shouldn't be. If Jobs does include them I will have to counter with the SJRDF argument.

edit:
Furthermore, if the goal is to "sell" 100 million then how does "giving away" songs count toward that total? The give-away promotion is obviously designed to get people into the store in the hopes that they will then buy songs. (Yes, Apple is getting paid for the songs but the distinction is clear in the statements because Jobs used the term "giving away" to refer to the Pepsi promotion)

I stand by my original statement (even though I can't find a link to the interview).

manitoubalck
Dec 9, 2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by jettredmont
Generally, articles talking about the relative "technical sophistication" of Mac vs Windows users are talking about the relative education levels. Mac users tend to have a higher level of education (more college and grad-school graduates) than Windows users. This doesn't mean that they know more about how the IDE channels in their computer work; it means they are able to prioritize and choose the right tool for the right job :)

That's taking it out on a limb and you only just covered yourself saying "relative education levels." I have had no formal training as far a building and fixing computers is conserned, just had to nut it out when the problem arrose, (has alot to do with my financial standings.) Remember apple Mac only holds around 5-6% of the computing market, so mot people with tertiary educated or not are going to end up with a x86 machine. Since most of the world hasn't had the oppertunity to attend University, let alone grade school, your comment is rather crude and derogatory.
On education levels an accountent may rationalise after 3 years in the books that the limited recycleablity/expandablity/office software base of an apple Mac makes them not worth the inital capital outlay.

SiliconAddict
Dec 9, 2003, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by jettredmont
DirectX wouldn't help. It is possible Apple isn't taking advantage of SSE and SSE/2 (SSE/2, I believe, wouldn't apply in your case ... only P4+) ... but I doubt it. I suspect iTunes just has some bottlenecks.

Direct X isn't SSE. Direct X is to Windows as Quartz Extreme is to OS X just a more limited version in some technologies. I'm thinking more along the lines of Direct Draw which would aid in the speed of resizing the window. that's only one of the problems with iTunes for Windows but its one of the more obvious one.

Sayhey
Dec 9, 2003, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by manitoubalck
Them's Fighting words. One may argue that apple customers have a lower technological sophistication than x86 users, hence their computers only come pre constructed, with everything already installed ready to used. No computing knowlege required. Apple could gain significant market share by sell in barebone, headless systems, (2 or 1 procs, 1 case and a motherboard) thus not pricing themselves out of the mass market.

However, Well done to the ITMS, even though when it comes to Australia, I won't touch it with a 40ft pole. (Big fan, of free downloads and Real CD's)

LOL, ok but I can throw a mean left hook from 8,000 miles away! Hey, manitoubalck, it wasn't my quote it came straight from the article. I like the kudos to Apple users even if I don't think such generalizations are worth, to use an old political phrase, "a warm bucket of spit."

As to the expansion of iTMS to markets other than the US, I'm betting we see some major announcements at the MacWorld - San Francisco. Hold on until then and we will see if Apple is going to be able to jump through all the legal hurdles to make iTMS an international success.

tychay
Dec 9, 2003, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Nope. I don't know about the other guys but I'm not talking iTMS. I'm talking the App itself. Itís slow. But as someone else stated itís acceptably slow. ... This is pure speculation but Iím guessing that Music Match takes advantage of Direct X and iTunes does not. *shrugs* again it works acceptably fast enough but it isnít blazing.

iTunes takes advantage of OpenGL instead of DirectX, plus all the widgets seem to have been customized to match closely with the Mac version of the product for better or worse. (I think it was a business decision that if the behavior wasn't identical, Apple would have suffered fallout from anti-Apple people claiming that Apple had compromised build quality and given the PC world a cheaper version of iTunes.)

This creates a load on the CPU and graphics card any time the GUI is manipulated. The best way to see this is to move the window about really fast or scroll around. This is mitigated somewhat with a couple of behavioral changes: use the minimized player/windows toolbar and the find-as-you-type search box.

On graphics cards with horrible OpenGL support (Matrox, for example), the GUI responsiveness is to the point of unsuitability.

iTunes for Windows already requires an advanced version of Windows (2000 and XP only) so therefore I don't think the CPU is much an issue. Most systems that run 2000/XP date to a little after the G4 was released so that would put them at around 800Mhz "Coppermine" style computers.

My guess is the Windows requirement is more restrictive than the GUI responsiveness. I'm very impressed with how accurately the mimic'd the behavior of the Mac version, even though I think they should have taken more risk by keeping with the spirit of the product instead of the detail.

This is unrelated to ripping speed and CPU load during playback (those are related to quicktime).

Back on topic. I got the impression that Apple was deliberately vague on whether or not the giveway songs would be counted as part of the 100 million. I seemed to take it as being that Apple optimistically would like to reach 100 million based on the AOL and iPod/iTunes popularity alone, but if they fall short they'll count the claimed Pepsi (and McDonald's) songs.

I can't wait until some vendor reports Nielsen SoundScan numbers. Right now the only one doing it is Apple which points to me that the other services are disappointing. Else they would be crowing about how much market share they took from iTunes (#1).

Take care,

macnews
Dec 10, 2003, 01:16 AM
Wow, some comments seem to have gotten a little off topic.

20 mil is great to hear. I hope Apple can make the 100 mil goal by April. That is a lot of ground to cover. Of course, this could only inspire other to join in - whoever ISN'T planning one right now. I think Santa Claus is going to introduce his online music store Dec 24 - so watch out Apple!

MCCFR
Dec 10, 2003, 04:02 AM
Tychay has made some great points, and what they imply is that - by adhering to a co-operative cross-platform 'open' standard (OpenGL) as opposed to pandering to a truly proprietary standard (DirectX) - Apple is paying a price in terms of performance.

Maybe what's needed is a pragmatic approach, namely a switch in Preferences that asks the user "Use OpenGL extensions"; leave it on and you get the full Apple-like application and decent speed so long as you have a graphics subsystem with good OpenGL performance, turn it off and you revert to a more traditional looking Windows app that exploits DirectX.

We should not forget that a few iterations of software optimisation will also be required - the development process for the Windows version only started in April if you use the job adverts as a guide so the fact that there was a version in October that works as well it seems is a bit of a miracle if you ask me.

the_mole1314
Dec 10, 2003, 07:21 AM
I agree, I'd rather have a slightly slower iTunes that is more like the Mac version than a cheap version that's faster.