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MacRumors
Dec 9, 2003, 01:55 PM
AppleInsider claims (http://www.appleinsider.com/news.php?id=264) that Apple has been in negotiations to acquire several of Discreet's video products including Combustion, Cleaner and 3dsmax.

This is in the wake of recent rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/12/20031205173709.shtml) suggested that Discreet's Cleaner Video Application (http://www.discreet.com/products/cleaner/cleaner6/) may be in jeopardy due to restructuring at the company.

Apple has had numerous software acquisitions over the past couple of years, including Emagic (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/07/20020701071234.shtml), Nothing Real (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/02/20020206184749.shtml), Silicon Grail (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/06/20020612185912.shtml), and Prismo Graphics (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/06/20020620194933.shtml)

SumDumGuy
Dec 9, 2003, 02:00 PM
Oh goody! This will be quite a boon for content creation. With Apple at the helm, Cleaner could become usable again like when it was owned by Terran.

Phobophobia
Dec 9, 2003, 02:00 PM
Sweet--I hope apple will save cleaner.

Sonofhaig
Dec 9, 2003, 02:01 PM
What could this mean for Apple? Does anyone want to speculate?s this compa

spaced
Dec 9, 2003, 02:02 PM
Great move, Discreet. Threatening to close your floundering Mac division was the perfect bait to position Apple for a buyout. Bravo!

Bakey
Dec 9, 2003, 02:03 PM
Sod Cleaner, if there's any credence to this rumour then maybe [just maybe] there may be 3ds Mac!!

ennerseed
Dec 9, 2003, 02:07 PM
that would be great... although an alias acquisition would be better news.

srobert
Dec 9, 2003, 02:09 PM
Please excuse my ignorance on this topic... but is this a:

A) We're buyin' ya 'cause we really like your product and want to integrate it.

or

B) We're buyin' ya 'cause we don't like your product (even if it's a good one) because it is competing with one of our present or future product.

Any idea?

henryblackman
Dec 9, 2003, 02:09 PM
Let's hope Apple do acquire them, or at least their technology. Apple do NOT need any kind of knocks when they are pushing forward with video as a target market!

Of course, hopefully they'll discontinue the PC version and give them Mac Cleaner free with a purchase of a Mac - a la EMagic.

AmigoMac
Dec 9, 2003, 02:16 PM
Just a small step for apple but a big one for the computers community...

or was it the other way? ...

Some tools are needed to catch that expected market share increase... step by step ... if you want money, you have to invest...

nuckinfutz
Dec 9, 2003, 02:17 PM
Not too sure 3ds would be for sale. Who knows though.

I doubt this comes to fruition for the simple fact that Apple must tread lightly as far as software acquisitions. Microsoft can get away with competing with developers without punishment, Apple cannot.

Although if the price is right I say do it. Apple doesn't really need alot of extra video products but I'm sure they could poach the best code from many discreet products and strengthen DV on the Mac.

jettredmont
Dec 9, 2003, 02:18 PM
Hmmm ... seems to me that if Apple was buying Cleaner then the Cleaner development team wouldn't have already been laid off ... so one rumor or the other is inaccurate.

hkhaskell
Dec 9, 2003, 02:18 PM
I am not sure whether this would be a good thing or not.

There's no question that somebody who will actually develop it should buy the technology from Discreet. It's ridiculous that there's no Real Player or Windows Media 9 export on OS X, while the PC version has had both of these for a while now. It's not like the codecs haven't been available for almost a year now...

My fear is that Apple would not be very motivated to develop a product that exports streaming media to other formats other than QuickTime.

Makosuke
Dec 9, 2003, 02:33 PM
If Apple maintained Cleaner (or improved it) as a standalone product, that'd be very cool, particularly since they'd probably drop the price some, maybe putting it within the reach of cheap-o folks like me.

But if they wrapped it into/bundled it with FCE/FCP, that would be even cooler. It'd be nice to have a standalone version for postprocessing video, but (also, hopefully) having an integrated version would be very cool.

Who knows, if we're really lucky they'll just make it part of QuickTime Pro.

Longey Nowze
Dec 9, 2003, 02:36 PM
A lot of people I know wont buy a mac cuz it doesn't have 3ds max! I keep telling them about Cinema 4d, de éspirit (sp) maya and all the others that are better than 3ds max! so this would be a good thing! bring on G5 optimisation and altivec! and show us numbers that are 3-5 times faster than on windows!

I hope this is true... I'm excited!

ennerseed
Dec 9, 2003, 02:41 PM
Macromedia.
Apple (or someone worth a **** read NOT microsoft) needs to buy them.

Raidiant
Dec 9, 2003, 02:44 PM
To add to the discussion, both combustion 3 and 3d studio max are extremely good and has a huge fanbase applications, alot of people actually don't want a mac for work because it can't run 3DSMAX, thats why all game developers use PCs....

I personally have not bought a mac desktop because of this.

rspress
Dec 9, 2003, 02:45 PM
This is great news! I hope Apple will purchase cleaner, combustion and 3dsmax.

God knows that Cleaner could use Apples magic touch and it should replace the lame Compressor program that ships with final cut pro.

Combustion is one of my favorite compositing and effects program and Apple could give this program the attention it deserves.

3DSMax on the other hand is a mixed bag. Powerful but with an interface the could stump even the most hardened 3d veteran. This program would benefit the most from Apples UI magic. Apple having this program on their shelves could alienate Alias Wavefront and other vendors..maybe this one will be resold to pixar.

These would be great additions to Apples Pro line of video authoring programs if they decide to purchase them...I can hardly wait for an Apple branded Combustion!

zedwards
Dec 9, 2003, 02:45 PM
First, DVD Studio Pro and Final Cut Pro come with a compression software already. So, most likely, most people will not need this. Combustion's competition is Shake, although about 8000 less.

Also, it is ironic that if this was Microsoft, people would be howling about the corportate conglomeration grabbing every software company.

D*I*S_Frontman
Dec 9, 2003, 02:52 PM
Seems to me they might gut Cleaner and take the best parts in order to beef up Compressor. That would be very cool for us DV editing guys. Compressor does some things well, but it isn't as flexible nor does it support as many formats (at least that is my understanding from playing around with both of them).

Sometimes it makes more sense to BUY R&D from a company with a proven product than to SPEND R&D yourself on a competing product. Much more efficient. Now everyone should well understand why Apple keeps a sizable cash warchest around--for just such an opportunity.

It would be fabulous if Apple bought MacroMedia. Even better incentive to go with Mac as a platform: all your major-league content-generating software made by the same compnay that makes your hardware. Stable and reliable beats cheaper 95% of the time for people who actually work in these fields.

BenRoethig
Dec 9, 2003, 03:01 PM
While Apple is into purchasing companies, how about XGI Graphics? (http://www.xgitech.com/index.asp)

Dahl
Dec 9, 2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by zedwards
Also, it is ironic that if this was Microsoft, people would be howling about the corportate conglomeration grabbing every software company.
I guess most people still see Apple as a "small" company, I know I do.

hkhaskell
Dec 9, 2003, 03:04 PM
...is if Apple bought these three products and then resold 3dsMax to Alias Wavefront with the stipulation that they have to develop MAYA Unlimited for Mac OS X. It's just plain silly that they don't have it already, since the Mac platform accounts for 25% of their sales.

(Plus, they already make it for SGI and Linux. How hard can it be?) :)

P-Worm
Dec 9, 2003, 03:13 PM
A lot of people are talking about compressor, but I think that it is 3D Studio Max that is most important here. This program has a HUGE fanbase and there is no current Mac version. Now what would be sweet is if Appl bought 3DSMax and did the same thing to it as they did for Shake, cheeper for the Mac, and that is the only version we are going to support from now on.

P-Worm

ant_s
Dec 9, 2003, 03:19 PM
If Apple were to acquire 3DSMax, then they'd have to start shipping Power Mac G5 BTOs with nVIDIA Quadro (or equivalent) cards. That would be a benchmark worth watching!

:D

Insatiable
Dec 9, 2003, 03:46 PM
Given recent history, this might not be an entirely good thing. If Apple packages its own 3d and low-end compositing apps, I see Adobe walking right out of the door with After FX, and Maya and LightWave probably wouldn't be far behind.

Adobe pretty much ignores Apple entirely in all of it's ads and promos; that relationship is damaged no matter what the two parties say publicly. Alias and NewTek could just as easily stop producing software for the Mac.

I know Apple certainly has a right to make money off software, and I'm grateful for Final Cut, but I'm concerned that, for broadcast designers like myself, working on the Mac will soon mean less options for software.

3G4N
Dec 9, 2003, 04:08 PM
Cleaner, yeah sure, it needs some serious help. Apple could do some great things, but as mentioned above, I see problems (read: conflict of interest) with the Real and WMP codecs & support.

Combustion is a great app, and I use and love it, but there is some serious conflict and overlap with both Shake and FCP. I just don't see where it would fit in Apple's strategy and still remain a whole, viable product (ie. not get scrapped for pieces-parts). It would also futher p1ss off Adobe w/ AE.

And finally, I own a seat of 3dsmax, and I just don't see Apple taking this puppy over. Porting max to OSX would be a HUGE undertaking -- Mammoth! Not to mention all the 3rd-party plugins!! 3dsmax is also a big money maker for discreet -- why would they want to sell it? Discreet has been known for being rather anti-mac in the past, so I kind of understand them possibly wanting to drop their apps that they have to dev for OSX.

I'd really love for this to happen, but I just don't see it.

Rocketman
Dec 9, 2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by jettredmont
Hmmm ... seems to me that if Apple was buying Cleaner then the Cleaner development team wouldn't have already been laid off ... so one rumor or the other is inaccurate.

Isn't it just evidence of good business strategy by Apple? Buy it right after they lay off a bunch of employees (legally) and then buy the flaming hulk, let go most of the windows programmers shortly thereafter (Apple not being largely a windows shop) and then hire back Mac programmers on a cherry pick basis?

Rocketman

rock711
Dec 9, 2003, 04:17 PM
I agree. The most signifigant product up for sale here is 3DS max. It is the only thing keeping a dual Xeon on my desk at work instead of a dual G5. I have to use this product on a daily basis and it cannot be replaced due to my companys stubbornness to stick with it. While I am the strongest proponent of max on macs, I doubt that this will ever see the light of day. If you ask any max user we will tell you that max is so thoroughly built into windows that seperating the two would require a full rewrite of the core program. To illustrate my point: back in the summer there was a windows hotfix that when installed would protect your pc from the infamous blaster worm, ( :rolleyes: ). The other thing it did was cause any and all max files opened while the patch was installed to become corrupted and irrepairable. Why would a windows update cause a max core software issue? Because the core of max relies on the core of windows. We max fans have been clamoring for a rewrite for years. Instead we get more features packed into max that have been included with maya for years. It's pretty safe to say that apple is gearing towards a 3d app, (its the only puzzle piece missing from the pro app lineup), and perhaps 3d max will be thier solution, but if it is, don't expect to see it for a LONG time. :(

lewdvig
Dec 9, 2003, 04:23 PM
If this happens, it will be HUGE.

Discreet throws great parties and hires very pretty girls! That is exactly what Apple needs!

I remember GDC a few years back, we hooked up with some fellow Canadian 'game developers' at the Discreet GDC party. As we were walking over to the Fairmount, they latched onto one of the poor Discreet girls. Luckily she was with some guy. We were hoping he would pount the 'developers' and we would get some free entertainment - the GDC awards were being given out in the building we were standing next to and GTA3 was winning, so it would have been appropriate to have a brawl outside.

Canada rules. We make all the CG boobies bigger, cause we love our american cousins.

Bob Knob
Dec 9, 2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by zedwards
First, DVD Studio Pro and Final Cut Pro come with a compression software already. So, most likely, most people will not need this.

I can tell you don't use Cleaner.
Cleaner is nothing like the output options in FCP and vastly more powerful than Compressor.

SiliconAddict
Dec 9, 2003, 04:25 PM
Discreet Desktop Video division


What?!?! Apple's going into the desktop porn industry!?!? ;)

lewdvig
Dec 9, 2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Bob Knob
I can tell you don't use Cleaner.
Cleaner is nothing like the output options in FCP and vastly more powerful than Compressor.

Cleaner is pretty sweet, but come on admit it: it's too expensive. Sorensen codecs don't cost _that_ much.

lewdvig
Dec 9, 2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Insatiable
Given recent history, this might not be an entirely good thing. If Apple packages its own 3d and low-end compositing apps, I see Adobe walking right out of the door with After FX, and Maya and LightWave probably wouldn't be far behind.

Adobe pretty much ignores Apple entirely in all of it's ads and promos; that relationship is damaged no matter what the two parties say publicly. Alias and NewTek could just as easily stop producing software for the Mac.

I know Apple certainly has a right to make money off software, and I'm grateful for Final Cut, but I'm concerned that, for broadcast designers like myself, working on the Mac will soon mean less options for software.

Alias/Maya won't back down from a good fight. After FX? Adobe will be part of MS or Apple in a couple of years so who cares. They will either have to survive w/o Adobe or consume them.

I won't even mention Lightwave - last thing I want to do is get any of those Amiga 2000 / Video Toaster zealots mad at me, because I think they are cool.

LethalWolfe
Dec 9, 2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by lewdvig
Cleaner is pretty sweet, but come on admit it: it's too expensive. Sorensen codecs don't cost _that_ much.

I don't think Cleaner is too expensive, plus Cleaner can output just about anything you want. Compressor and Sorens Squeeze aren't as flexible in terms of output.

As far as Combustion goes it doesn't compete w/Shake, IMO. Yes they are both compositers but Shake is aimed much more at the hi-end/FX heavy film environment (ex. LotR) where as Combustion shares a similar demographic w/After Effects. Nor does Combustion overlap w/FCP 'cause FCP is an editor where as Combustion is a compositer. Yes FCP has better than average compositing ability for an editing app, but it's still no where near as good as a stand alone compositing app. What will be interesting, if the Combustion rumor is true, is to see if Apple releases a stand alone compositing app or just beefs up FCP's compositing ability (or maybe an add-on like Cinema Tools used to be?).


Lethal

Malic
Dec 9, 2003, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
I don't think Cleaner is too expensive, plus Cleaner can output just about anything you want. Compressor and Sorens Squeeze aren't as flexible in terms of output.


I would say that Cleaner's feature set should be folded into QuickTime Pro...

The Reaper
Dec 9, 2003, 05:07 PM
"...is if Apple bought these three products and then resold 3dsMax to Alias Wavefront with the stipulation that they have to develop MAYA Unlimited for Mac OS X. It's just plain silly that they don't have it already, since the Mac platform accounts for 25% of their sales.

(Plus, they already make it for SGI and Linux. How hard can it be?)"

Alias Wavefront is reconsidering the future of Maya unlimited, on all platforms. in other words, they may just remove the product altogether and put the advanced functionality into the normal Maya. it makes little sense for them to port unlimited to the mac, if in a few months they are going to axe it.

Tuttle
Dec 9, 2003, 05:11 PM
There is no way Apple will ever ship 3dsmax. End of story.

3dsmax is garbage. I can't think of another commercial product that is worse than 3dsmax, not even from Microsoft.

Apple, don't even think about it.

The Reaper
Dec 9, 2003, 05:22 PM
there is a reason for why no one is grumbling about Apple's acquisitions.

Microsoft has a history of acquiring companies and then releasing a product with no new innovations. they then use their superior marketing resources, as well as the IT community's unflinching MS support, to outcompete the competition. once they 'win', once all major competition is bankrupt, they then let the produc stagnate. Internet explorer is a nice example of this. any acquisition Microsoft makes will therefore be seen skeptically.

Apple, on the other hand, has only acquired products where they believed they could innovate further. Almost every one of apple's successful products is successful because of high quality. And once they have cornered a particular market (video editing on the mac, for example), the innovation continues. even as adobe dropped out of the race with it's pro video editor (everyone was buying FCP), apple released a revamped video editing suite. unlike microsoft, apple is good for the industries it enters.

Apple's strength has often been it's ability to create new markets from old ideas. online music, for one. Digital jukebox software. iTunes is the best jukebox software available, because rather than just rehashing old ideas when designing it, they added a few new ones that made it better than the competition. Microsoft wins in markets by leveraging it's marketing budget, as well as it's corporate partnerships and the loyalty of IT administrators. apple wins markets by making competitive software.

LethalWolfe
Dec 9, 2003, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by Malic
I would say that Cleaner's feature set should be folded into QuickTime Pro...

Do you want to pay $600 for QT Pro? ;) If Apple buys Cleaner it will most likely get merged w/Compressor (I can't see Apple have two seperate compression apps target towars pros).


Lethal

Tuttle
Dec 9, 2003, 05:40 PM
If Apple wants to get into the low end 3d content creation market, iTunes would be a good model. iTunes takes the 5-10 percent of ripping/playing features 90-95 percent of users use and implements them better than anyone else.

Apple could pretty easily:

1) Fire up XCode/IB and create a simple and elegant modeling package front-end

2) Clone a subset of the Maya API for the guts of the package

3) Apple touches - Seem-less Rendezvous network rendering, Apple-Scripting, heavy PPC optimzations, and so on

4) License/Buy a renderer or even an open source package

I would love to see what Apple could come up with.

FightTheFuture
Dec 9, 2003, 05:53 PM
yeah adobe would really consider dropping more apps if apple purchased combustion. it wouldn't look to great in adobe's eyes. why do you really need a compressor though? more and more video programs can squeeze files right out of the box. and i don't think discreet is in the hole, there really isn't a need for cleaner and it may just now begin to take effect.

and i don't think 3dstudio max is that bad. many users believe that 3dmax 6 is getting closer to maya's level.

i_am_a_cow
Dec 9, 2003, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Tuttle
There is no way Apple will ever ship 3dsmax. End of story.

3dsmax is garbage. I can't think of another commercial product that is worse than 3dsmax, not even from Microsoft.

Apple, don't even think about it.

HUH? :confused:
hmmm maybe you just don't know how to use it cuz it's pretty ******** powerful man. Of course, it's not that great for like video and movies (like maya is), but it sure is good for games.

LethalWolfe
Dec 9, 2003, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by FightTheFuture
yeah adobe would really consider dropping more apps if apple purchased combustion. it wouldn't look to great in adobe's eyes. why do you really need a compressor though? more and more video programs can squeeze files right out of the box. and i don't think discreet is in the hole, there really isn't a need for cleaner and it may just now begin to take effect.



Comparing the built in output options of an NLE app to that of Cleaner (or heck even Compressor or Soreson Squeeze) is like comparing 256 color on your monitor to 32 bit color.

Compared to stand alone compression apps using an editor to output a compressed file is very rigid, very inflexible, and very hard to get the look, quality, and file size you need.


Lethal

ITR 81
Dec 9, 2003, 06:44 PM
Apple must be reading my posts because I figured Discreet was a prime company for Apple to buy out and even if they didn't buy the whole company they would be buying portions of it.

Thing is if Apple ports these all over to OS X and then drops the PC version it will make alot PC users buy Macs just for the software apps. This could be seen as bully tactic but it's a rough business and sometimes you've got get abit rough.

The reason no one will howl about Apple buying up smaller companies here and there is because Apple only owns 5% of the market. Now if Apple ever approaches say 40-50% of the market then folks will howl.

Apple has enough money earmarked to buy out couple of companies so I doubt Discreet will be the last one.

I could see Apple going after Macromedia but who knows. I say they need buy some gaming companies to port more games to Mac which in turn bring more PC users to the Mac.

j33pd0g
Dec 9, 2003, 07:03 PM
Apple + Nintendo = :)

Tuttle
Dec 9, 2003, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by i_am_a_cow
HUH? :confused:
hmmm maybe you just don't know how to use it cuz it's pretty ******** powerful man.

I have been making games for over ten years. I have setup the art workflow on multiple game projects. Both console and home computer.

Max is a piece of garbage.

tazznb
Dec 9, 2003, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by Bakey
Sod Cleaner, if there's any credence to this rumour then maybe [just maybe] there may be 3ds Mac!!

I agree. For the 3D community this would roll heads to the high heavens.

Mac haters would cry for years at the thought that Apple purchased 3DSMax (3DSMax, who would never consider porting to Apple's OS, and hardware.)

Then again......! This would put Apple in direct competiton with Alias Wavefront's Maya.

Hmmmmm.

Whoa.... thinking about this makes my head itch (or could it be dandruff?)

dongmin
Dec 9, 2003, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by ITR 81
Thing is if Apple ports these all over to OS X and then drops the PC version it will make alot PC users buy Macs just for the software apps. This could be seen as bully tactic but it's a rough business and sometimes you've got get abit rough. I doubt it. There are alternatives to every one of those apps that Discrete produces. 3DSMax is definitely replaceable (although it does have a large following) with the likes of Maya, Viz, Rhino, and Form-Z.

Apple has very little expertise in the world of 3D. It's better left to companies that specialize in it.

The problem with Apple is that it's hard for a lot of developers to make money off the Mac platform. So when the going gets tough, many of these developers end up dropping their Mac versions.

beerstine
Dec 9, 2003, 07:39 PM
Cleaner seems the most likely target here. Compressor is a version 1.0 limited functionality product right now. Cleaner technology could radically enhance and upgrade it much like acquiring Spruce led to an improved DVD Studio Pro. Since the Mac development team is already laid off, this seems likely, or at least logical.

The question is would they acquire only the Mac code or would Cleaner XL which features more up to date support for Real and Windows Media get included.

I'm not sure why Discreet would sell Combustion. Combustion 3 is already out for the Windows market. They can still make money on it and it has some compatibility with Discreet's higher-end windows products. The mac version is running several months behind and there clearly isn't much desire by Discreet to develop it faster. Getting Combustion would definately tick off Adobe and might mean them leaving the Mac video market altogether which woulld be a real problem for compositing pros committed to After Effects.

Getting a 3D program would be great for Apple, but they need to get one already working on the Mac, not one that would need a ton of work to re-port and then debug. You can sell more computers to PC Switchers with a current product ala EMagic.

vannote
Dec 9, 2003, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by dongmin
Apple has very little expertise in the world of 3D. It's better left to companies that specialize in it.

Note Steve's second job:

http://www.pixar.com/index.html

TomSmithMacEd
Dec 9, 2003, 10:32 PM
What does this company do? I have never heard of them.

legion
Dec 9, 2003, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by TomSmithMacEd
What does this company do? I have never heard of them.

It's a well know company now a division of AutoDesk in video/tv/broadcast and post production.

Go here to find out more...

www.discreet.com

(ingenious to look it up on the internet, eh?)

Sun Baked
Dec 9, 2003, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by legion
It's a well know company now a division of AutoDesk in video/tv/broadcast and post production.

Go here to find out more...

www.discreet.com

(ingenious to look it up on the internet, eh?) Or HERE for a history lesson....

http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=50009562&f=8300945231&m=56910232

Belly-laughs
Dec 9, 2003, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by P-Worm
A lot of people are talking about compressor, but I think that it is 3D Studio Max that is most important here. This program has a HUGE fanbase and there is no current Mac version. Now what would be sweet is if Appl bought 3DSMax and did the same thing to it as they did for Shake, cheeper for the Mac, and that is the only version we are going to support from now on.

P-Worm

Now, that would upset a lot of people. What if they did their magic and improved the app to make an impression with the current fanbase? "Hey, dude! maybe Apple ainīt that bad after all, eh? And that G5 looks rather tempting..."

Why not make new friends?

Dahl
Dec 10, 2003, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by Belly-laughs
Now, that would upset a lot of people. What if they did their magic and improved the app to make an impression with the current fanbase? "Hey, dude! maybe Apple ainīt that bad after all, eh? And that G5 looks rather tempting..."

Why not make new friends?
I prefer that way myself.
Winning over PC users might take a longer time, but forcing users to switch will not be pretty.
I already know some PC users who got upset about Shake.
PC users have to see the true value of OX 10 and the new powerful Macs that hopefully will keep coming and then decide to switch.

It can be done.

I think Apple is a very strong company now, they have solid software and a great relationship with IBM.
If old PC users can't see that, hopefully new computer users will give a Mac a chance.

Brent Turbo
Dec 10, 2003, 05:26 AM
First of all, it ain't going to happen, except MAYBE with Cleaner. Why would Discreet sell off its cash cow, 3dsMax, the best selling 3d app in the world, to a company that could very well kill the app to begin with. Let's face it, Apple screwed up with Shake.

I'm in the CG industry in LA, and studios are clamoring to find alternatives to Shake, now that Apple has the reigns. Take Dreamworks for instance... They were running Shake on Linux, but are switching over to PDI's in-house system, because they absolutely will not buy Macs to run Shake on. That's ditto for a lot of the big studios. It's more worth it to them to program their own software than use Macs in the pipeline. That's about how much respect Apple has in this industry.

So again, why would Discreet want to sell software that makes them a lot of money now, and shows huge profit potential in the future -- not to mention ties in with their high-end compositing workstations? Would Discreet let Combustion go Mac-only or Mac-cheaper, when it's a crucial bridge in a lot of Inferno / Flame compositing pipelines? Simple answer... no!

Again, Cleaner sounds feasible, and in line with Apple's market strategy, but buying out the whole line doesn't make sense for any party if you actually use a grain or two of logic.

P-Worm
Dec 10, 2003, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by Brent Turbo
I'm in the CG industry in LA, and studios are clamoring to find alternatives to Shake, now that Apple has the reigns. Take Dreamworks for instance... They were running Shake on Linux, but are switching over to PDI's in-house system, because they absolutely will not buy Macs to run Shake on. That's ditto for a lot of the big studios. It's more worth it to them to program their own software than use Macs in the pipeline. That's about how much respect Apple has in this industry.

You know what I say to this? Let them cry. If they're not willing to try a new format out of pride (that's all I can think of that's going on here) let them spend time looking for solution. I bet they waste more money going out and looking for alternatives than they do just buying a G5 with Shake or multiple G5s for that matter.

I do agree with you that this rumor does not make much sense. But just think how it would change things...

P-Worm

Raidiant
Dec 10, 2003, 10:48 AM
The thing is you can't tell me to use maya or lightwave in one day, because i've used 3DSMAX for years I know the interface from inside out, any modeller will know its hard to get used to a new 3d program.

The thing is it will never happen, because discreet will not sell its biggest product, and as someone slese said its impossible to convert.

In addition the reason apple has little respect in the industry is due to its poor and expensive customer service, crucial to coporations alike.

Developers will kill if they had to write game graphics on a mac, then unable to test it on a windows machine, it just kill 3DSMAX all together, because as we all know apple will make is absolutely mac based.

Brent Turbo
Dec 10, 2003, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by P-Worm
You know what I say to this? Let them cry. If they're not willing to try a new format out of pride (that's all I can think of that's going on here) let them spend time looking for solution. I bet they waste more money going out and looking for alternatives than they do just buying a G5 with Shake or multiple G5s for that matter.

I do agree with you that this rumor does not make much sense. But just think how it would change things...

P-Worm

Actually, P-worm, it's not that they're crying. Quite the opposite, really. A good CG pipeline is based on stability, longevity, and cost. It makes a lot more sense in the long run to come up with your own solutions if a software package you're using is showing THAT much unreliability from a market perspective (software is bought, pricing scheme decimated, key platform dropped). I wouldn't want to rely on something like that in my studio -- too much fluxuation. Nor could I possibly understand having a partially Mac pipeline.

Let's face it, the Intel/AMD hardware platform reigns supreme over the CG industry, and with good reason -- inexpensive, fast, reliable, and with your choice of OS. It has very little to do with pride on the part of these studios, and more to do with plain common sense. If something can save them money in the long haul, they're going to do it, and frankly, I don't know of any studio, not presided over by Steve Jobs, that feels Macintosh is a viable solution in any part of the pipeline.

Maybe we're on different wavelengths because I'm not one of those "market share at all costs!" kinda guys. Apple could drop off the earth tomorrow, and I'm quite sure the world would keep turning. It would just be a slightly less fun world. CG is for PCs, and frankly, I'd like to keep it that way -- I still have my powerbook at home!

LethalWolfe
Dec 10, 2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Brent Turbo
First of all, it ain't going to happen, except MAYBE with Cleaner. Why would Discreet sell off its cash cow, 3dsMax, the best selling 3d app in the world, to a company that could very well kill the app to begin with. Let's face it, Apple screwed up with Shake.

I'm in the CG industry in LA, and studios are clamoring to find alternatives to Shake, now that Apple has the reigns. Take Dreamworks for instance... They were running Shake on Linux, but are switching over to PDI's in-house system, because they absolutely will not buy Macs to run Shake on. That's ditto for a lot of the big studios. It's more worth it to them to program their own software than use Macs in the pipeline. That's about how much respect Apple has in this industry.

So again, why would Discreet want to sell software that makes them a lot of money now, and shows huge profit potential in the future -- not to mention ties in with their high-end compositing workstations? Would Discreet let Combustion go Mac-only or Mac-cheaper, when it's a crucial bridge in a lot of Inferno / Flame compositing pipelines? Simple answer... no!

Again, Cleaner sounds feasible, and in line with Apple's market strategy, but buying out the whole line doesn't make sense for any party if you actually use a grain or two of logic.


I'm slightly confused. Apple still makes a Linux version of Shake, so what issues does Dreamworks have? :confused:

Not everyone is familair w/Discreet and/or the industries they provide products for so cut everyone some slack and try educating people to the situation and not insulting them.


Lethal

Brent Turbo
Dec 10, 2003, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
I'm slightly confused. Apple still makes a Linux version of Shake, so what issues does Dreamworks have? :confused:

Apple charges through the nose for render licences of Shake. Let's say you're compositing a feature film, and you've got 100 fileIn nodes in Shake (basically 100 layers) and you're running color correction and defocus, and a bunch of render-expensive nodes, you're going to need a renderfarm to render out all those frames. At 2k film-res, a complicated Shake composite can take quite a while to render. A few thousand frames, and you're going to need more than a couple of computers to crank out those frames within this century.

So, you have a few options...
1) Stay with Shake on Linux, pay for a couple dozen upgrades to 3.0, buy a boat load of render licences (at a few thousand a piece) to run on your render farm.

2) Move compositing to Macs. Buy a G5 renderfarm because render licenses are free on Mac. Sounds economically sound at first, but Shake ain't the only thing the compositors are using. Each studio writes TONS of custom tools, scripts, plugins, etc, for the software they use. They'd have to do a complete redevelopment of ALL of these tools for Mac, and then reintegrate them into their Linux workflow.

3) Program a compositor that you know is going to be around as long as you want it to be, and compatible with the workflow you want it to be in. It's a win-win situation. Every studio writes tons of custom software. Where do you think Shake came from in the first place? It was a studio's in-house compositing software, the guys who wrote it broke off and formed Nothing Real.

LethalWolfe
Dec 10, 2003, 02:02 PM
How much was Shake before Apple purchased it? For some reason I thought the price was kept about the same, Apple just gave insane discounts on the Mac version (or free if you are talking about render license).


Lethal

tychay
Dec 10, 2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by zedwards
Also, it is ironic that if this was Microsoft, people would be howling about the corportate conglomeration grabbing every software company.

Not ironic. One is a monopoly, the other is not. The rules are different for a monopoly because the monopolist has the power of "rents", or were you asleep in economics class?

There is a difference between vertical integration and vertical foreclosure.

And Apple has a long history of watchdogs making sure they don't create a monopoly. Remember the unbundling MacWrite and MacPaint? Remember 4th Dimension? Remember why they created Claris? When vendors feel threatened they move to a competing platform (Mac to Windows and Linux), that's the free market at work. When they don't have this option (leaving Windows), then things get bad.

Having said that, as you say, Apple must tread carefully. Their mistreatment of developers got them into a big mess in the past and they must be careful not to do it again.

Brent Turbo
Dec 10, 2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
How much was Shake before Apple purchased it? For some reason I thought the price was kept about the same, Apple just gave insane discounts on the Mac version (or free if you are talking about render license).

I think the issue is less the cost of the software itself, but the (pun alert!) shaky ground it's on right now. Apple buys it and completely restructures pricing, availability, and displays a wavering commitment to upgrading the non-Mac version, and sales take a swan dive. What are you going to do, wait for it to collapse, or start getting out now, with two feet planted firmly on the ground when Apple says "Uh yeah, no more Linux version" or "we're collapsing Shake technology into Final Cut and dissolving Shake as a standalone app"?

Trust me, these studios have a lot of money, it's not a huge deal for them to sink $500,000 into render licences, but it is a huge deal to tell a director "we couldn't finish your shots on time because we were adjusting to a completely new compositing pipeline." Better to slowly transition into your own system (or a different package with more of a commitment to the industry), than to be forced into a transition by an application that's got a shaky future. Again with the puns.....

LethalWolfe
Dec 10, 2003, 02:59 PM
Thanks for the insights Brent Turbo. I don't follow the CG side of the industry very closely so I wasn't aware of the shake up :D Apple had caused.


Lethal

Brent Turbo
Dec 10, 2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
Thanks for the insights Brent Turbo. I don't follow the CG side of the industry very closely so I wasn't aware of the shake up :D Apple had caused.

Wakka wakka! No prob dude! I certainly didn't mean to sound like a smart-ass at any point, it's just that I eat sleep and breathe this stuff all day long. In CG, every conversation has to do with CG. It's annoying, cuz you'll go out to dinner with some friends, and all you'll ever talk about is what's up in the industry. "Hey, did you hear the president of XXXXXXX XXXXXX punched a guy from XXX's lights out?" (that's a real one, by the way, though I shouldn't say who....)

krimson
Dec 10, 2003, 03:36 PM
Wow, i can't believe how much i just learned reading this thread..

thanks everyone :D

e-coli
Dec 10, 2003, 04:49 PM
Apple should buy Smoke, Flint, Flame and Inferno.

Those big SGI machines are on their way out. They run about $1M (plus the mandatory service package), and now, for about 1/4 that price, you can get an entire rack of XServes that will be just as fast, and way more scaleable.

If Discreets big boy apps ran on Apple hardware, Apple would OWN this market over night.

tazznb
Dec 10, 2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Brent Turbo
I think the issue is less the cost of the software itself, but the (pun alert!) shaky ground it's on right now. Apple buys it and completely restructures pricing, availability, and displays a wavering commitment to upgrading the non-Mac version, and sales take a swan dive. What are you going to do, wait for it to collapse, or start getting out now, with two feet planted firmly on the ground when Apple says "Uh yeah, no more Linux version" or "we're collapsing Shake technology into Final Cut and dissolving Shake as a standalone app"?

Trust me, these studios have a lot of money, it's not a huge deal for them to sink $500,000 into render licences, but it is a huge deal to tell a director "we couldn't finish your shots on time because we were adjusting to a completely new compositing pipeline." Better to slowly transition into your own system (or a different package with more of a commitment to the industry), than to be forced into a transition by an application that's got a shaky future. Again with the puns.....

Brent Turbo you make a few points, but you have to admit; If Apple did some amazing things with this purchase (If it's not a rumor) it wouldn't do squat to change the bias of many people in the industry.

They don't care how much good Apple can do, because in the end Apple can do no good in their eyes.

So in their screwed up misconsception on how the world should run we get stuck with microsoft who really has a talent for screwing us, and things up.

It's good to do a bit of everything; you see, and understand more: It's not the platform anymore (post G4) it has more to do with what can you do with the software on any given platform.

Right now there's no longer such a thing as this hardware totally grinds the competitor to dust, but then again Apple (I believe) had Motorolla to thank for that.

Brent Turbo
Dec 10, 2003, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by e-coli
If Discreets big boy apps ran on Apple hardware, Apple would OWN this market over night.

Forgive me, but this mentality doesn't make any sense to me. I'm a big fan of Alias software, but I wouldn't be interested in them buying out technology so they could "own a market," so to speak. Who cares if they own the market? Unless you've got a lot of Apple stock or something, otherwise that doesn't even make sense.

Originally posted by tazznb
f Apple did some amazing things with this purchase (If it's not a rumor) it wouldn't do squat to change the bias of many people in the industry.

Most people I run into use Macs for liesure, and PC/Linux for work, so I don't understand where the strong bias comes from, exactly. Also, I don't know how the "screwed up misconsception on how the world should run" puts Microsoft in first place, when Linux is really #1 right now in CG?

LethalWolfe
Dec 10, 2003, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by Brent Turbo
Wakka wakka! No prob dude! I certainly didn't mean to sound like a smart-ass at any point, it's just that I eat sleep and breathe this stuff all day long. In CG, every conversation has to do with CG. It's annoying, cuz you'll go out to dinner with some friends, and all you'll ever talk about is what's up in the industry. "Hey, did you hear the president of XXXXXXX XXXXXX punched a guy from XXX's lights out?" (that's a real one, by the way, though I shouldn't say who....)

Oh I totally understand. I'm on the editing side of things and I'm completely familair w/the 24x7 shop talk. The most disgusting part has to be when someone gets a new piece of hardware or plugin or something and everyone gather's round like a bunch of 8 year olds at Toys R Us. :D We're budgeted to get a pair of G5 based Media Composer Adrelines<sp?> as soon as Avid certifies the G5. So, ya, when those arrive at the office ain't no work gettin' done that day.

I think the really sad part is instead of Maxim or Sports Illistrated in the bathroom it's all industry magainzes. :D


Lethal

jamsk
Dec 10, 2003, 09:59 PM
Okay, Linux may rule the CG nest in the big studios who can afford to hire programmers, but look to the future. It's all the kids in high school and college who are going to become the digital storytellers. Many of them are NOT going to work for Dreamworks or Digital Domain. The majority of them will end up working out of the second bedroom in their house (or some similar inexpensive and tax-deductible place). They will be able to produce outstanding quality work on desktops and go right to digital distribution (broadband, DVD, cable, satellite, PlayStation, ???).

PCs are cheap, but there can be all kinds of compatiblity issues when working with apps from several different vendors, especially video apps. I use PCs and Macs and I've had far fewer problems with Macs. 99% of my media creation work now is on Mac.

If Apple bought Combustion/Cleaner and Corel (CorelDraw, PhotoPaint, Painter, Wordperfect Office), they wouldn't need Adobe or Microsoft.

Dahl
Dec 10, 2003, 11:16 PM
Interesting info in the last page of posts.

I do web design, but have always been into motion graphics. I choose web design as my special in school, when motion still was a thing for expensive set ups, besides when I went to school everybody was raving about the net ( before the dot com crash )
I still want to get more into motion graphics and since I'm in L.A. there's no better place. But I would hate to change platform, if that's what I have to do.