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arn
May 18, 2002, 03:49 PM
MacEdition published a NMR report (http://www.macedition.com/nmr/nmr_20020517.php) indicating that Mac OS X 10.2 is due for us in July at MWNY:

The final candidate will rear its head during the last week of June, they aver, and the shipping version should put in an appearance at July’s Macworld Expo/New York – presumably alongside Apple’s next major round of desktop hardware.


Note that Jaguar will likely be a paid upgrade... the biggest hint regarding this is that Jobs specifically stated that XServe (which ships with 10.1.5) will require a paid upgrade to Jaguar during the XServe release session Q&A.

King Cobra
May 18, 2002, 03:54 PM
I do not see why this would not happen. You have OS X 10.2 being previewed early in May...that means that there will be a long two month's time before we actually see 10.2 ready for shipment.

Again, it's not SpyMac. :)

My question now lies with the "rumor" that 10.1.5 was somewhere about. Why would Apple continue to release minor updates if they know they have Jaguar packin'?
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arn
May 18, 2002, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by King Cobra

My question now lies with the "rumor" that 10.1.5 was somewhere about. Why would Apple continue to release minor updates if they know they have Jaguar packin'?


Jaguar is probably going to cost $$$.

So... 10.1.5 and 10.1.6 (if you believe the rest of the article) would presumably be bug fixes for the 10.1 line.

10.2 will be bug fixes plus new features.

arn

TyleRomeo
May 18, 2002, 04:05 PM
bring it on and put in the new PMs!!!!!!!!!!!!

mr.w
May 18, 2002, 04:22 PM
mwny would be the right time to release x.2 seeing as how the new towers will be comming out. It'd be nice to have them shipped with jaguar.

King Cobra
May 18, 2002, 04:22 PM
The only reason I am questioning 10.1.5/..6 is because I do not remember the last time Apple updated a line of OS while a higher level OS was being integrated into products. I don't think Apple did this with 10.0.x. So why would Apple not do the same for Puma/Jaguar?

It just seems wierd, that's all. All the bug fixes would presumably be in Jaguar.
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croft
May 18, 2002, 04:27 PM
Jaguar will be given its public showing at MWNY but don't expect to get you hands on it before Apple Expo in Paris.

jelloshotsrule
May 18, 2002, 04:56 PM
whether true or not... buying a new computer in july, then having to pay for an os upgrade is crappy... oh well.

icetraxxg5
May 18, 2002, 04:59 PM
Hopefully apple takes time on Jaguar and makes sure its got everything that people have wanted for a long time, I rather see them do that instead of rushing Jaguar out the door.

King Cobra
May 18, 2002, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
whether true or not... buying a new computer in july, then having to pay for an os upgrade is crappy... oh well.

Well, what if you buy a new computer (PowerMac) at July and OS X 10.2 is included? Then you probably will not have to worry about purchasing it.

As for those who have 10.1 or plan to purchase a computer with 10.1, it is kind of annoying. But I am assuming the upgrade is NOT $100. It may be more like #20 or $30. That isn't a big deal.
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jelloshotsrule
May 18, 2002, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by King Cobra
Well, what if you buy a new computer (PowerMac) at July and OS X 10.2 is included? Then you probably will not have to worry about purchasing it.


right, i was saying if it comes with 10.1 and you then, a month later, get 10.2 and have to pay, then it is crappy.

even if it's 30 bucks.

as for anyone else, 30 bucks is fine for an upgrade this big in my opinion.

~/indigo
May 18, 2002, 05:46 PM
Don't worry about it. When you buy a new system you are eligible to get updates for free if they are released within a certain time frame of your purchase.

Jeff.

DannyZR2
May 18, 2002, 06:53 PM
I smell new powermacs...

buy now or wait... .?????????????? the ever present question..

Mr. Anderson
May 18, 2002, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by DannyZR2
I smell new powermacs...

buy now or wait... .?????????????? the ever present question..

They have the rebate available for the G4 until July, right upto MWNY, so you have a bit of time if you're in the market. I'm not going to buy a new computer till the G5 comes out and next year, so if the G5 comes out in July (doubt it) I'll get one after MWSF. I might get an upgrade for my current G4 until then.

Its good to see that both Jaguar and new hardware are coming out at the same time. I could just imagine the fiasco that would ensue if Jaguar came out and there wasn't a decent machine to run it on.

dongmin
May 18, 2002, 07:21 PM
The bit about the Xserve requiring a paid upgrade to 10.2 bothers me. The Xserves are not supposed to ship until sometime in June, right? And if 10.2 comes out during the MWNY, that would only make it a month later. That doesn't make sense to me. Either it's gonna be a free upgrade for Xserve users OR it's not coming out until August or so.

johnpaul191
May 18, 2002, 07:31 PM
Jobs did say one service update to OS X before we see Jaguar. if we do not see 10.2 in July, i would think we see it right after. it's very possible we will see an updated minitower in July that doesnt actually ship for a week or two or three. tthat would take us into august. then again it might be like the iphoto upgrade. the newer verrsion was on the shipping machines, but still had a few tweaks to work with older systems. i assume whatever hardware is released between now and Jaguar release date will be optimized (or already is) for the OS upgrade. makes sense. if we see hardware in July i would expect it to have 10.2 instead of them making sure 10.1.x works on it.

Silver Dragon
May 18, 2002, 07:39 PM
Remember a couple of things:

1 - The 10.1 Server upgrade was a paid upgrade, unlike the client. Given, it was only about $30.00, but you did have to buy it (I believe educators got it free).

2 - Screw the G5. I think everyone that is 'waiting for the G5' is falling prey to bigger number syndrome. I anticipate that if the G5 truly is what everyone says, we will probably take a speed hit on 32 bit applications making it *slower* than the G4 at certain tasks. If you need a new computer, waiting for the G5 is just silly. I never understood why people do this, base purchases off of rumors with very little substance and doing little reasearch. :::sigh:::

3 - The build of Jaguar that was released at WWDC was pre-alpha. The chances of it going through all Alpha and Beta testing, hitting GM and shipping in 2 months are next to none. Has anyone actually listened to the reviews of Jaguar? Cool featurs, unstable, unstable, unstable. Jaguar will *not* be released for a while, so get it out of your heads now.

That's all. Before I get flamed, just think about everything we actually know right now. The entire article posted was pure speculation with nothing to back it up. What do we *know*?

nero007
May 18, 2002, 07:48 PM
From what I've heard Jaguar won't show until at least Sept, Nov. I've run the version that was given to developers at WWDC and there is no way they will have it ready to go by the time MWNY comes around. There are still a lot of the features Steve spoke of left out. While it's still solid, it's not nearly where it will be when Apple finally releases it. As far as the G5 goes. Next year. But who cares. The G4's they will be releasing will solve a lot of the problems that the original G4 had. The new towers will be G4s and they will scream.

rekras
May 18, 2002, 07:59 PM
i think paying for any upgrade for 10.2 is ridiculus, if they did charge to upgrade, id find a serial, unless it's OS 11 im not paying...

King Cobra
May 18, 2002, 08:00 PM
Well, now, it makes sense, why there would be an OS 10.1.5, ..6, etc. If Apple does not release Jaguar at New York, but instead preview it, then we probably will see Jaguar sometime around the early fall (maybe really early?), just as Dragon mentioned. But, again, I am only agreeing with no "release" of Jaguar since there are still minor updates to go that may reflect on the Alphas/Betas of Jaguar for further development.
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Kid Red
May 18, 2002, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by King Cobra
The only reason I am questioning 10.1.5/..6 is because I do not remember the last time Apple updated a line of OS while a higher level OS was being integrated into products. I don't think Apple did this with 10.0.x. So why would Apple not do the same for Puma/Jaguar?

It just seems wierd, that's all. All the bug fixes would presumably be in Jaguar.
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They were working on 10.1 and 10.0x at the same time, they also worked on 9.1, 9.2 a the same time as X PB. They were also working on 10.2 when at least 10.1.4 came out, why would you not believe they can do it again?

porovaara
May 18, 2002, 10:10 PM
Since it seems a lot of people aren't familiar with how it works I'll explain it a little bit.

You often have a release version, let's call that 1.0. Of course 1.0 is full of bugs and in need of some minor enhancements. These bug fixes go into some sort of central reporting repository if it is a well run orginization.

Then you have future releases, let's call our future release 1.5. Inside of that are enhancments. When you begin an enhancement release it is based off a stable branch of earlier code. Our pretend future release takes, say, version 1.2 of the release code.

Now at this point you have two releases you are working on, even though only one should be in the wild. You have a small group of developers working on known issues and bugs in the earlier release and the bulk of your development effort going into the new feature enhanced release. The bug fixes are applied to both release branches, in many cases seperately because you have taken a fixed code branch from an earlier point. This new release therefore should (although sometimes it doesn't) contain all known fixed issues from the earlier version (1.2). This allows you to work on a seperate version of code and change it all willy-nilly but still have something stable to go back and work on in case you suddenly to need to make a 1.3 since 1.5 is taking so damn long.

Hope this helps.

j763
May 18, 2002, 11:22 PM
The last I heard about Jaguar was that they've got the stability issues completely ironed out (it should be as stable as 10.1.4) in a new build, and they could release Jaguar tomorrow if Apple wanted to.... But here's the catch -- Apple want to work out MPEG4 licensing out with MPEGLA so the Jag preview at WWDC was basically a deadline for MPEGLA. If this rumor is true, then either MPEGLA or apple have walked out of discussions or they've reached an arrangement already. The latter being more likely -- the only reason that Jag is waiting for the greedy @$$holes at MPEGLA is so that with the upgrade to Jag, Apple can raise some funds not only to make an ROI from Jag but to pay mpegla for mpeg4 decoding in QT6. Personally, I hope that Apple have given up on MPEGLA and have effectively killed MPEG4 and then we'll see what those greedy @$$holes say.


Also, don't be too confident that Jag will be 10.2 I mean, if we saw this many features in every 10.x release, we'd never reach OS 11. Note also that Apple has never called jag 10.2 -- just "OS X Codename Jaguar" and the URL is macosx/newversion -- not macosx/version2 or macosx/102

Pismo
May 18, 2002, 11:23 PM
At MWNY, I predict that Steve will preview 10.2 (if it is not ready to be released) and he might give us a release date. If it is ready that day, he might tell people to reach under their seats and pull out an Apple ticket and tell them they can get a free copy of 10.2 at the door when they leave.

As for distribution to the masses...

10.2 will cost $20 as did 10.1 will be free at any Apple retailer.

Just my opinion.

As for the G5's, only God and Steve knows.

pimentoLoaf
May 19, 2002, 12:02 AM
Any idea how much RAM Jaguar will require? Have 256mb on my iBook, and I'm wonderin' if havin' an entire 640mb would be a good idea?

porruka
May 19, 2002, 12:13 AM
Any idea how much RAM Jaguar will require? Have 256mb on my iBook, and I'm wonderin' if havin' an entire 640mb would be a good idea?


More memory is _always_ a good idea. Mo' mem! Mo' mem! Mo' mem!

Anyway, on the topic of 10.1.5/10.1.6, I'm certain the code branching post is correct. Big software projects that have actual deadlines always do this.

AFA Xserve shipping with 10.1.5, imagine that it was announced that XServe required Jag and Jag slipped. Foot, meet accelerated metal projectile. So it makes sense that to cover the bases, the most assured release will be the one that gets announced.

-porruka

Skandranon
May 19, 2002, 12:50 AM
Stevie J will bust out new PowerMacs and Jaguar in MWNY... then make us wait for a few weeks until they ship with 10.2 pre-installed.

Take my word for it. I'll put down $$$. We'll see the goods in advancen then get antsy and disgruntled for the preceding few weeks until they start shipping.

:rolleyes:

G4scott
May 19, 2002, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by j763
If this rumor is true, then either MPEGLA or apple have walked out of discussions or they've reached an arrangement already. The latter being more likely -- the only reason that Jag is waiting for the greedy @$$holes at MPEGLA is so that with the upgrade to Jag, Apple can raise some funds not only to make an ROI from Jag but to pay mpegla for mpeg4 decoding in QT6. Personally, I hope that Apple have given up on MPEGLA and have effectively killed MPEG4 and then we'll see what those greedy @$$holes say.

I don't think that Apple will walk out of, or completely dump MPEG4. Apple's trying to get a standard set in the internet media field, and they see MPEG4 as the best technology for the job. Apple is trying to make something that everyone can use, and not release some proprietary codec that's incompatible with everything else. I believe that Apple's strategy was to show mpegla how their technology could become the standard, that the expensive licensing terms prevented this, and that they didn't need to put such hefty fees on the use of MPEG4 if it was a standard.

Apple's trying to "light the match" with MPEG4 for the internet media format of choice, and eventually get others, like microsoft, or real player to use mpeg4.

The problem with media these days, is that there are no standards... If one standards organization won't accept a format, they'll just create another organization... Apple is trying to stop this, and provide all users (windows and Mac) with the best computing/internet experience, and they see MPEG4 as the best way to do it.

As far as "jag-wire" :D (sorry Steve, it's just kinda funny...)

I wouldn't be too sure on its release date because I haven't even seen what its current status is. I just hope that it would be in time for MWNY. Then they can put it on the new towers...

Wry Cooter
May 19, 2002, 02:51 AM
I'm irritated by the notion often posted that Apple will want income from the upgrade so not only will they charge for it, they will call it 10.5 instead of 10.2, to justify the cost to people. "Oh? Its 10.-FIVE-? That's different- where do I send my money again?"

Because I want the entire enchilada on One CD (or set of CDs) as a complete full upgrade with all the apps, so it is probable I may be paying, happily mind you, for 1.2 on CD.
This may mean full price for me, and I may be okay with that. It might also mean 20 bucks, or even nothing. But I want something complete reliable and solid, not piecemeal upgrades.

Doesn't matter if the download is free, or an upgrade disk from the Apple store is free, or if software update gives it to me free through OS Thirteen, I want 10.2 complete on a disc. I don't want to install 10.0 again, then 10.1, then every other upgrade in between, especially if I might have to do it more than once due to some unforseen glitch. I want full installation discs with all the bells and whistles.

foniks2020
May 19, 2002, 03:01 AM
The bit about the Xserve requiring a paid upgrade to 10.2 bothers me. The Xserves are not supposed to ship until sometime in June, right? And if 10.2 comes out during the MWNY, that would only make it a month later. That doesn't make sense to me. Either it's gonna be a free upgrade for Xserve users OR it's not coming out until August or so.

Xserve doesn't run OS X client... it runs OS X Server... Server has traditionally been behind the client on upgrades, etc. at least as far as the version number is concerned. Who is to say whether 10.2 Server will come out in July.

Foocha
May 19, 2002, 03:42 AM
Since 97, Apple has produced a paid-for upgrade almost every year - 8, 8.5, 9 and X. It's been over a year since the last paid-for upgrade (excluding the handling charge for 10.1) and so it is surely inevitable that Apple will want to charge for this one.

I think it's clear that Apple are busily fixing bugs in 10.1 in order to justify charging for 10.2.

I agree with Wry - I always prefer to buy a clean install CD rather than mess around with incremental patches and updates - I did the same with 10.1 - in a busy life there isn't enough time to install patch after patch.

reflex
May 19, 2002, 05:23 AM
On this page it's said that Jaguar will be "available late summer 2002":

http://www.apple.com/macosx/

So I wouldn't expect to have it in July. It may of course be officially announced at MWNY.

fiardinkum
May 19, 2002, 05:34 AM
Windows users have, for some time, had one saving grace from their otherwise dull and lifeless pc's, in that the Sachs Aquarium screensaver (visit www.serenescreen.com) has given them something nice to look at on their screen. Despite the fact this product runs on Windows, it actually is quite good. A bit of digging on their website reveals that a "special" mac version will be available this summer. These people had an agreement with MS to include the saver with a Windows XP feature pack, not to be out-done i'm sure our friends at Cupertino have something similar up their sleeve! ;-)

Foocha
May 19, 2002, 05:44 AM
Remember, Apple "thinks different" on the subject of "late summer" to the rest of us. They said that the Public Beta would be released "late summer" and we got it at the end of September.

Combined with the fact that Steve specifically stated that Xserve owners would have to pay to upgrade to Jagwire indicates late August at the earliest, since otherwise Xserve owners would qualify for Apple's up-to-date program.

Assuming it's not cancelled this year, Paris sounds like the best contender for a release date.

It's gonna be a long summer!

j763
May 19, 2002, 07:39 AM
foocha -- as I said before, if they can work the licensing issues out, they should be able to release in MWNY easily... Apple can't accurately predict the release date. It kinda depends on Mpeg la... Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see an open standard but mpegla's talk of charging the end user, content provider and for the decoder doesn't sound like a great way of doing things... They've got a good technology, they're just as greedy as hell, so I really wouldn't mind seeing this whole thing fail miserably due to their greed, then we'd end up with something better and cheaper (hopefully).

Pelorus
May 19, 2002, 08:27 AM
Jobs did say "late summer" which, in Apple parlance, is September. Just in time for Paris.

In July you'll see new PowerMacs and more showing off of Jaguar.

I'm pretty shocked and dismayed to hear about all the people who will refuse to pay. I mean - this stuff isn't being charged for JUST to make a profit. I got 10.1 for £19 quid which was cheaper than any other upgrade I've ever paid. Look at the other side of the fence, it's much more expensive on the other side.

I mean...how much do people expect to pay for upgrades? I spent 70 quid in 10,0, then 19 quid on 10.1. At this point I certainly don't begrudge Apple another full 70 quid. 70 quid every two years or so is perfectly reasonable IMO

Wow. As a content creator myself I couldn't justify stealing from other creators.

King Cobra
May 19, 2002, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Kid Red
They were working on 10.1 and 10.0x at the same time, they also worked on 9.1, 9.2 a the same time as X PB. They were also working on 10.2 when at least 10.1.4 came out, why would you not believe they can do it again?

I did not mention Apple working on a future version when some version was already out. I was saying that why would Apple working on an old version of software when a newer one was already out? (I am assuming that Mac OS X 10.1.5/..6 come out within a four or five month period.) It wouldn't make sense for Apple to have 10.1.6 and 10.2 be available at the same time. Just upgrade to 10.2, since 10.1.x will not improve any more. That was my point.
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Rocketman
May 19, 2002, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by DannyZR2
I smell new powermacs...

buy now or wait... .?????????????? the ever present question..

If you have to ask, wait. The computer you have now does everything you need and serves all the purposes you anticipate needing in the next year or so.

People who upgrage right after a release but have an adequate computer already are either Apple early adopters (see marketing texts), are fanatics (se sociology texts), have megahertz envy (see psychology texts), or have more money than brains (see trust fund babies).

And all this discussion about the release of particular OS versioon NUMBERS entirely sidesteps ANY discussion of FEATURES. So what, what they CALL a bug fix? 10.1.4, 10.1.5, 10.1.6, who cares? When they want to CHARGE you for it they will simply rename 10.1.6 to 10.2 and tell you how wonderful it is supposed to make you feel!! And based on these posts about version numbers, you will!

You know what I want to READ here? What features are fixed, or added in a version and what if any benefits those features deliver so I can make an educated decision whether or not to upgrade a CPU to a particular OS. Most of my Macs still run either OS9.2 or OS 8.6. I am looking for the day when the general trend in postings is that OSX is so valuable and stable it is the ONLY way to go.

Rocketman

http://v-serv.com/-upload/avatar.jpg

Rocketman
May 19, 2002, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by foniks2020


Xserve doesn't run OS X client... it runs OS X Server... Server has traditionally been behind the client on upgrades, etc. at least as far as the version number is concerned. Who is to say whether 10.2 Server will come out in July.

The web site says OSX client is a build to order downgrade. Presumably one could buy 10 Xserves and install server on one and OSX on the rest.

Rocketman

nero007
May 19, 2002, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by Rocketman
I am looking for the day when the general trend in postings is that OSX is so valuable and stable it is the ONLY way to go.

It's more than stable. And that's the main reason I love using it. I will never be able to go back to the old OS. With X, I am able to leave my computer on for weeks without a restart. It's wonderful.

firewire2001
May 19, 2002, 11:29 AM
what is the history of mwny?

what sort of things have been released then?

i know the original imac was released in august -- the imac was released on my birthday, august fifteenth :D -- was that mwny?

jus wonderin...

King Cobra
May 19, 2002, 12:44 PM
Lately, many PowerMacs and iMacs have been released on the same month as a major Expo, such as New York or San Fransisco. I am pretty sure that the first Quicksilvers were released at the New York Expo (correct me if I am wrong). It seems that another revolution in PowerMacs may hit us at New York this year, say, much more improved G4s? Well, at long as it doesn't hit us too hard... :)
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stukoch
May 19, 2002, 02:29 PM
Many people are upset by the fact that they will have to pay for OS 10.2 becuase Apple has done a poor job of marketing their new versions. If they used the Micro$oft version of numbering not many people would be complaining at all. For those of you who don't understand let me explain...

In 1995 MS released Windows 4.0 but they smartly called it Windows 95

2 years later they released Windows 4.1, but they called it Windows 98, making it seem like a whole new product

6 months later they released Windows 4.2, which they called Windows 98SE.

Windows 4.5 was called Windows ME, and so on

MS charged for all of these updates and noone complained because the average consumer actually thought he was getting a brand new product, rather then a simple upgrade. If Apple were to adopt a new numbering system (I am not suggesting the MS year system) it would make it much easier for joe consumer to lay down his $75.

-Stu

King Cobra
May 19, 2002, 03:13 PM
Here is my argument against what Stu is saying. How much did consumers have to pay for upgrades to Winblows 95, 98, 98SE, ME, XP anyways? I thought I read someplace that the upgrade price was greater and greater, depending on the version/year difference for an upgrade. And also I thought that even a simple upgrade from 4.1 to 4.2, etc. was at least, $50? I am probably a little off.

Now, an even better argument...

Do you really see $20 to upgrade a version of OS X a big deal? If you do, give me a break! Now I do not mean to be so blunt, but $20 for a simple upgrade is basically nothing. That is like an ink cartridge for an old printer. And, no, I am not trying to refer back to the old Mastercard commercials from last year. :)
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ezrabud
May 19, 2002, 04:41 PM
Having to pay for this upgrade is pathetic. I have purchased both the public beta and 10.1 and use neither of them for more than curiousity purposes. The operating system is great but still needs much work (performance sucks specifically); work that we should NOT be required to pay money for.

eric_n_dfw
May 19, 2002, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by ezrabud
Having to pay for this upgrade is pathetic. I have purchased both the public beta and 10.1 and use neither of them for more than curiousity purposes. The operating system is great but still needs much work (performance sucks specifically); work that we should NOT be required to pay money for.
What machine do you use it on?
I've got a B&W with a Sonnet G4/400 upgrade and 768MB RAM. It runs just fine. The only time it feels slugish is when I re-size windows - a small price to pay for pre-emptive multi-tasking and protected memory. I am looking to upgrade to a faster Mac now, ONLY because Final Cut Pro 3 has much that would take advantage of the new, faster machines. Untill it was released, I found my 3.5 year old machine to be plenty fast under OS X.

Foocha
May 19, 2002, 05:10 PM
I have no performance problems with OS X, but plenty of problems with OS 9 - are you really happy with an OS which freezes every time the user holds down the mouse button or a modal dialog box appears?

If you want free software, there's plenty of great free software out there - try GNU/Linux. Apple's a commercial organisation, so you have to pay for the upgrades - you take you choice!

Pelorus
May 19, 2002, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by ezrabud
Having to pay for this upgrade is pathetic. I have purchased both the public beta and 10.1 and use neither of them for more than curiousity purposes.

1. The Public Beta no longer boots and therefore it's not much for "curiosity" any more. Plus, it didn't cost you much.

2. How much did 10.1 cost you? Lemme guess. You got it burned for free at a local store and you removed the OSX check file so it's a full bootable Cd now...it's always the whiners and thieves that bitch about paying money.

I hope they do make it a pay upgrade - it's a 70 quid that I'll gladly shell out. In an ideal world software might be free, but then so would hardware!

j763
May 19, 2002, 06:24 PM
Look, when you bought the public beta or 10.1 -- that's what you paid for. It's a WYSIWYG arrangement. Apple's been kind enough to upgrade you for free from 10.1 to 10.1.4 and given you iPhoto, the list goes on... You want more?? Well, pay for more!

sloppyjoe
May 19, 2002, 06:28 PM
x

G4scott
May 19, 2002, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by ezrabud
Having to pay for this upgrade is pathetic. I have purchased both the public beta and 10.1 and use neither of them for more than curiousity purposes. The operating system is great but still needs much work (performance sucks specifically); work that we should NOT be required to pay money for.

just remember, making a good OS is not cheap. Apple has to have the people who write the software, do the R&D, and a bunch of other stuff. now, you may say that open source is nice, and should be cheap (and it is), but it takes someone to put all of this stuff, and that is what Apple is doing. If they don't charge for their software, even major updates, then the software will start to suck. Apple has released 10-10.1.4 for free (some may argue about the 10.1) and with the MAJOR improvements in 10.2, Apple is justified in charging for the update. Besides, its their software, and their decision.

So, next time you complain about having to pay for something, just remember that there are people who make these things, and who have to work for it to make a living...

King Cobra
May 19, 2002, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by sloppyjoe
Get Jaguar for 135$ at:

http://www.azdrybones.com/felids.htm


WTF? That is so sad...you are posting a like to a place where you can buy cat skulls? No offense, but unless you suffer from some F'n mental syndrome, don't post that particular type of information here.

So sad...

And let's rack this Jaguar price upgrade up once and for all. Apple has always done with improvements in their operating systems since X. The pay upgrade to 10.1 served incredibly well, as many people complained about speed issues. If Backtothemac is saying that Jaguar (he has the beta) runs a lot faster on his iBook with a G3, then wouldn't you at least pay to actually use these features on a G4 (or whatever computer you use)? And aren't all these improvements and additions Apple has mentioned at WWDC enough for a small price tag? If you think that Apple is going to hand out a completely free upgrade "package" for Jaguar with all of these new features, then you need to go back to the penny pinching you have done since you got your first Mac. This upgrade most likely will be worth both the effort and the price.
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tortus
May 19, 2002, 07:51 PM
**** that!

eric_n_dfw
May 19, 2002, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by tortus
**** that!
Yeah - I "love that" too! :)

Apple is well within their rights to charge for such a big upgrade and I will gladly pay for it.

ultrafiel
May 19, 2002, 10:07 PM
I'm sure Jaguar will be a purchased upgrade. It just all makes sense for it to be. I'm planning on paying also. Lucky for me I'm still a student so I will be able to buy it at a reduced price but still, for what Apple gives us I would pay the whole amount if I had to. Go buy it at a University bookstore if you don't want to pay the full price, or get a student to do if for you.

I think we will be seeing this upgrade in September though, maybe August if we are lucky. Sure reviews have said the latest version is pretty stable, but don't forget all of the features that haven't been implemented yet. Quartz Extreme will most likely be a favorite of mine, but I'll be glad to see the demise of the cursed "beachball of death" also. As for Quicktime 6, I think MPEGLA will work out their pricing, and I don't think it will delay Apple from shipping Jaguar. As for numbering let Jaguar be 10.2 for all I care, the X factor has much more appeal than XI. And for those of you complaining about money, why do you have a Mac? Go to a PC if you want to be cheap. If you want quality you pay for it.

eric_n_dfw
May 19, 2002, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by ultrafiel
... I'll be glad to see the demise of the cursed "beachball of death" also.
I've found it funny that the wait cursor has been dubbed a "beachball".
Actually, I was surprised when OS X Beta still had it. Back on OPENSTEP, it was exactly the same but it looked a kind-of like the drive icon - except spinning and colorfull. So, I assumed it was supposed to indicate a spinning disc or drive platter.

nickgold
May 19, 2002, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by eric_n_dfw

I've found it funny that the wait cursor has been dubbed a "beachball".
Actually, I was surprised when OS X Beta still had it. Back on OPENSTEP, it was exactly the same but it looked a kind-of like the drive icon - except spinning and colorfull. So, I assumed it was supposed to indicate a spinning disc or drive platter.

You assumed correctly, methinks. It's simply come to be known as "the beachball" (or otherwise, The Spinning Beachball of Death) because, well, that's what it looks like. :)

idkew
May 19, 2002, 11:51 PM
You guys ever hear of it? Buy a new computer and you get three (?) or so free OS upgrades. if you get a new PM or XS, chances are you can get 10.2 for free.

btw- if this was already said, oh well. i didn't see it.

Foocha
May 20, 2002, 05:23 AM
Steve Jobs stated that Xserve purchasers would have to pay for the Jagwire upgrade, which indicates that they will not qualify for the up-to-date program.

Pelorus
May 20, 2002, 05:33 AM
Originally posted by Foocha
Steve Jobs stated that Xserve purchasers would have to pay for the Jagwire upgrade, which indicates that they will not qualify for the up-to-date program.

Apple doesn't announce their Up-To-Date programs until after the OS has been released. If you buy an XServe today it will be more than 90 days til Jaguar is released, therefore I don't believe you'd qualify for the Jaguar Up-To-Date.

If it bothers you, then wait. If you have any issues with OSX performance then stay with OS9. Always the same argument.

elgruga
May 20, 2002, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Pelorus




2. How much did 10.1 cost you? Lemme guess. You got it burned for free at a local store and you removed the OSX check file so it's a full bootable Cd now...it's always the whiners and thieves that bitch about paying money.

I hope they do make it a pay upgrade

Nasty little post - in my experience, its always the ones who proudly talk of paying for things that usually turn out to be thieves.
People that bitch about paying are doing just that - bitching about paying money.

People that boast about wanting to pay obviously need to talk about what good payers they are - probably because they actually are NOT good 'payers'.

10.1, btw, was a free upgrade at Apple reseller stores......

Anyway, if our want-to-pay (Pelorus) is so keen, let him pay for ALL our upgrades - Hey, think how righteous he would feel!

A Pelorus, btw, is a device to hold a compass bearing and sight along it, usually on a boat. Methinks this guy is off-course.

jamesbhai
May 20, 2002, 01:59 PM
Eh, I'll pay. If it's doing my small part to help Apple, I'll do it. Just buying a computer only helps for one Quarter. I am paying for what I get in the box at that time, not what's in the box plus every upgrade that Apple releases within 2 years. They improve the product. If we like it, we purchase the upgrade. If not, we stick with what we have and deal with it (you could still be running classic and most people could get done what the need to). I just hope it's everything Steve's RDF wills it to be.

gopher
May 21, 2002, 08:12 AM
If anyone had any misconceptions that it will be 10.2, lay them to rest as Apple has NOT, and I repeat has NOT declared a version number for Jaguar:

http://www.applelinks.com/articles/2002/05/20020520192006.shtml

nuf said...

Wry Cooter
May 21, 2002, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by gopher
If anyone had any misconceptions that it will be 10.2, lay them to rest as Apple has NOT, and I repeat has NOT declared a version number for Jaguar:

http://www.applelinks.com/articles/2002/05/20020520192006.shtml

nuf said...

And if it were lets say 10.1.4.1, or 10.1.5 or 10.5, or whatever, you believe this of vital importance, why exactly?

gopher
May 21, 2002, 12:59 PM
Reading the forums, people don't appear to be willing to pay for a .1 update, yet are willing to pay for a .5 or 1.0 update.

Wry Cooter
May 21, 2002, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by gopher
Reading the forums, people don't appear to be willing to pay for a .1 update, yet are willing to pay for a .5 or 1.0 update.

Oh point five? That's different. Its 3 better. Who do I make the check out to again?

So are you saying you would be happier if it were named 10.5?
That anyone here would be happier if it were named 10.5 instead?
That the mac using population at large would be more likely to buy if it were named 10.5?

What about the backlash among those who have seen the preview named 10.2, (as seen on apple.com) and would see them calliing it 10.5 in hopes to urge sales among the reluctant as a not particularly bright marketing move?

Pelorus
May 21, 2002, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by elgruga

Nasty little post - in my experience, its always the ones who proudly talk of paying for things that usually turn out to be thieves.
People that bitch about paying are doing just that - bitching about paying money. People that boast about wanting to pay obviously need to talk about what good payers they are - probably because they actually are NOT good 'payers'.
Great logic there. You're special.
I'd comment that youre' so quick to "shift the blame" and deflect any dirt that you're not entirely kosher yourself....but what would be the point.
10.1, btw, was a free upgrade at Apple reseller stores......
Anyway, if our want-to-pay (Pelorus) is so keen, let him pay for ALL our upgrades - Hey, think how righteous he would feel!

The poster said that he bought "Public Beta" and "10.1". 10.1 was also a full retail package. To use the free package you had to have 10.0 or you had to hack the 10.1 upgrade CD and therefore be a thief. Now if you want to make a 6000 mile round trip you can come and look at my collection of 10.x boxes. I have two 10.0 boxes, three 10.1 upgrades and a 10.1.3 upgrade.

A Pelorus, btw, is a device to hold a compass bearing and sight along it, usually on a boat. Methinks this guy is off-course.

Good lord, I let out a belly laugh at that one.
Anyone can use a dictionary.
Pelorus was also Hannibal's navigator. You'll find that the maritime doohickey was named after him.

jamesbhai
May 21, 2002, 01:23 PM
this is absurd. it will be 10.2. apple will charge money for it. we will buy it. the question is whether we SHOULD. OS 9 was supposed to be 8.7 originally. So what? If there are substantial changes to the OS that require more than bug fixes, I believe Apple has a right to charge (who noticed the changes from 8.5 to 8.6 other than for some). And it does appear that 10.2 is a significant upgrade. So, pay if you want the benefits, don't pay if you don't think it's worth it. That's how it goes. The question is whether the changes merit a purchase....From what I have seen, I believe they do.

Pepzhez
May 21, 2002, 04:09 PM
I sincerely hope that 10.2 will finally enable OS X to play (Mode 2) VCD's. There is no excuse for ANY modern OS not to allow such a simple task! And I see no reason why OS X disallows this aside from deliberately crippling the OS. It's damn annoying that I have to boot into OS 9 just to watch a video CD. (I could gladly wipe OS 9 off my HD forever if I could just view VCD's in OSX!)

Can anyone using the 10.2 beta confirm if it plays VCD's?

King Cobra
May 21, 2002, 05:21 PM
So many of you guys are not willing to pay for an upgrade to a powerful update to OS X 10.2, which most of us assume is Jaguar. (I am still admonishing gopher for his insight on this issue.)

Let's see if we can change a few minds. Let's say Apple has just released OS X 10.2. Let's assume that it is Jaguar. This Jaguar may come with a much faster finder, severely improved performance on G3 computers, spring loaded folders, an improved warning for kernel panics, many less bugs, a replacement for the rainbow spinning CD, an improved interface, Sherlock 3, uses less memory, and has more support for AltiVec acceleration.

If Apple managed to pull off all of this for their update package, from 10.1 to 10.2, for $30, let's say, would you buy it? Otherwise, you will most likely never see these features in 10.1, since these are rather large upgrades.

I am saying this because Apple will not spend all of their energy and improvements to be used in something that will be handed out free.

So, would you then purchase the upgrade? Because I would.

tortus
May 21, 2002, 06:26 PM
I would rather spend that on a lapdance and a drink and continue to use 10.1.4 and/or 9 than blow the money on a 10.2 upgrade. I have a single 450 g4 with the crappy stock ati card. No amount of upgrades are going to result in a great performance boost for me. I am holding out for the next generation. Until then, lapdances and bombay tonics.

Wry Cooter
May 21, 2002, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by tortus
I would rather spend that on a lapdance and a drink and continue to use 10.1.4 and/or 9 than blow the money on a 10.2 upgrade. I have a single 450 g4 with the crappy stock ati card. No amount of upgrades are going to result in a great performance boost for me. I am holding out for the next generation. Until then, lapdances and bombay tonics.

I was about to buy a new video card for my Sawtooth before I even heard of Quartz Extreme, more likely to do so after hearing of it. I want to extend my present hardwares life to the max before waiting for a new tower I can't afford yet, it will make it more useful to me as an extra box, or improve its resale value.

But the gin and lapdances, is this an Apple Store thing? I wondered what went on in the Apple Theater...

tortus
May 21, 2002, 08:22 PM
Shoot, what do you think Apple has been doing with their profits. Why do you think they have been lagging on the g5. Too much gin, juice, and booty going on in Apple HQ.

gjohns01
May 21, 2002, 08:38 PM
I'm a little confused. Why the bitching about a paid upgrade. Of course you'll have to pay for it. There are tons of improvements being added to Jaguar. Under the hood and on top of it. Developing software costs money people. The time spent developing Quicktime 6 alone justifies paying a fee. How about Inkwell? Integrating GCC 3? CUPS? What about Rendevous? You think that was free? Stop freaking whining. Apple is bringing you Quartz Extreme. Believe me, that was no small development feet. Microsoft is working on the same thing for their next OS. (-http://www6.tomshardware.com/business/02q2/020417/winhec11-05.html) The good thing is that Longhorn won't be available for at least another year. You'll have similar features earlier than the Wintel world. Progress is good and it costs money. So open up your pockets and pay for the freaking upgrade you cheap bastages. It's not like Apple is the record industry and is charging you $20 for one good song. You're gonna see some value with your purchase. :)

King Cobra
May 21, 2002, 08:56 PM
gjohns01, for the most part, I agree with you, but in a much lighter sense.

Let me just say that do not be disappointed that you may have to pay for an upgrade, because I only see this as the most logical way that Apple, basically, attributes respect and recognition, by selling a fully enhanced package of software that most likely WILL be worth the upgrade. If you still think that all of this paying just to upgrade to a .2 with a few extra add-ons is moose***** then ask Backtothemac. He has only a beta, and on his G3 there are vast improvements.

P.S. gjohns01, I do recommend that you post a little more lightly. Otherwise, we could have another flame war going about. And I know exactly what those are like.

And now for my final thought. It is obvious that when we feel that we are getting cheated out of a package of software for money we get angry. We look only at the cost of the software, as it is usually the most prominent "label" on anything physical that requires a price tag. However, most of us fail to realize the real beauty of the package inside the price tag. We fail to overlook the price tag and we oversee what the benefit of this price tag really is. Inside this price tag is an upgrade that some people say would be an absolutely incredible package. Apple has already given us an inside look at the package of software. It is fair to say that it is free to explore and get more information on these improvements or additions, but it is also fair to say that to actually keep the materials for your own personal use you are required to take notice of the price tag. You are entitled to personally use these advancements in software if and only if you accept to purchase the package, instead of free-viewing it. "'Till next time take care of yourself, and each other." - Jerry Springer.

gjohns01
May 21, 2002, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by King Cobra
gjohns01, for the most part, I agree with you, but in a much lighter sense.

Let me just say that do not be disappointed that you may have to pay for an upgrade, because I only see this as the most logical way that Apple, basically, attributes respect and recognition, by selling a fully enhanced package of software that most likely WILL be worth the upgrade. If you still think that all of this paying just to upgrade to a .2 with a few extra add-ons is moose***** then ask Backtothemac. He has only a beta, and on his G3 there are vast improvements.

P.S. gjohns01, I do recommend that you post a little more lightly. Otherwise, we could have another flame war going about. And I know exactly what those are like.

And now for my final thought. It is obvious that when we feel that we are getting cheated out of a package of software for money we get angry. We look only at the cost of the software, as it is usually the most prominent "label" on anything physical that requires a price tag. However, most of us fail to realize the real beauty of the package inside the price tag. We fail to overlook the price tag and we oversee what the benefit of this price tag really is. Inside this price tag is an upgrade that some people say would be an absolutely incredible package. Apple has already given us an inside look at the package of software. It is fair to say that it is free to explore and get more information on these improvements or additions, but it is also fair to say that to actually keep the materials for your own personal use you are required to take notice of the price tag. You are entitled to personally use these advancements in software if and only if you accept to purchase the package, instead of free-viewing it. "'Till next time take care of yourself, and each other." - Jerry Springer.

he he. Yeah I was joking for the most part. Very good point King Cobra.