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MacRumors
Jan 6, 2004, 01:37 PM
Apple announced significant improvements in their suite of iLife applications. The new versions fall under "iLife '04" (http://www.apple.com/ilife/):

iPhoto (http://www.apple.com/ilife/iphoto/) has seen the most dramatic improvements with performance enhancements as well as a number of iTunes-like features. These include smart albums, photo rating, rendezvous photo sharing and improved slideshows.

iMovie (http://www.apple.com/ilife/imovie/) '04 brings additional flexibility in editiong, iSight support, and improved sharing support.

iDVD (http://www.apple.com/ilife/idvd/) now offers up to two hours of encoding on a standard DVD using an improved encoder from Final Cut Pro. 20 new themes and overview modes are also offered.

As already reported (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/01/20040106142839.shtml) -- GarageBand has been released. More details in this news item (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/01/20040106142839.shtml) (Please post GarageBand comments under that story)

arn
Jan 6, 2004, 01:38 PM
please post GarageBand comments in this thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53932). Not here.

Thank you
arn

Le Big Mac
Jan 6, 2004, 01:41 PM
What's the word: will photo and movie still be free downloads (I assume iDVD and Garageband will cost $, and iTunes has to be free).

And will they work with the current version of iDVD?

mackaikai
Jan 6, 2004, 01:41 PM
com'on, bring out the free download for iPhoto NOW :D

coumerelli
Jan 6, 2004, 01:42 PM
iLife improved?!? Heck...I can USE iPhoto now....woohooo....can't wait to import more pictures.

Powerbook G5
Jan 6, 2004, 01:42 PM
Education pricing is $29 for the new iLife package, I am pretty excited about it, but not too sure if I am quite ready to order it yet.

jeremy.king
Jan 6, 2004, 01:42 PM
Just wondering if we will still get these updates through Software Update?

McMike
Jan 6, 2004, 01:44 PM
I love the new suite! But just from seeing :( I still can't download the update but what SJ showed was.... hmmmm impressive

mainstreetmark
Jan 6, 2004, 01:45 PM
I was really, really hoping for an iTunes upgrade.

I mean, a lot....

(Plus I'm let down by the costly iPod mini)

Ambrose Chapel
Jan 6, 2004, 01:46 PM
yeah count me in on wondering whether iPhoto and iMovie will still be free downloads. iTunes still is so...

geerlingguy
Jan 6, 2004, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Powerbook G5
Education pricing is $29 for the new iLife package, I am pretty excited about it, but not too sure if I am quite ready to order it yet.

I would pay that price... but I would be happier if I could just get everything (maybe not iDVD, as last revision was done) for FREE! Argh! Anyone know if any updates will be free?:rolleyes:

Kingsnapped
Jan 6, 2004, 01:46 PM
I'm really pumped... $29 with an edu discount. Garage band is exactly what I imagined... wow... good day.

vanmonkey
Jan 6, 2004, 01:47 PM
iPhoto is a great app, and I'm really itching to download the new version. Shurly apple wouldn't make us pay for the whole suite, right??

idkew
Jan 6, 2004, 01:49 PM
another persong complaning that i can not d/l iPhoto for free.


Maybe it will be posted next week when iLife is for sale???

prophboy
Jan 6, 2004, 01:50 PM
Anyone care to make an educated guess on when the new iLife will start shipping on new Macs? I was waiting to order until after the keynote, but I don't want to wait until 1/16! Tho I also don't want to have to pay an extra $20 for my impatience for the Up-to-Date upgrade. All the store site says is that the boxed product will be delivered on 1/16. I may have to walk into a retail store just to ask...

BeyondCloister
Jan 6, 2004, 01:51 PM
Just a shame that the new iLife costs so much in the UK compared to the US.

£39 ($71) in the UK compared to the £26 ($49) in the US. There is no way tax is that bad here.

I guess we should think ourselves lucky that the dollar is so weak right now otherwise it might of cost even more!

boobers
Jan 6, 2004, 01:53 PM
all wrong. 250 for a 4GB and 300 for a 15 GB?
consumers are dumb but not that dumb.

Lanbrown
Jan 6, 2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by kingjr3
Just wondering if we will still get these updates through Software Update?

Nope, or why would they say all new Macs will get it and they have an up to date program as well. If they were free downloads, they wouldn't have to have an up to date program. You want the new versions you need to pay the money.

jocknerd
Jan 6, 2004, 01:54 PM
Lets see, I've already got iTunes 4.2. Don't have a DVD burner on my iBook. Don't need an update to iMovie. I'm using Final Cut Express and will pay the $99 to upgrade it. So that leaves me with GarageBand and iPhoto for $49. Don't have a need to make my own music. So Apple wants me to pay $49 to upgrade my iPhoto? No thanks Apple.

I'm still planning to buy my G5 this year Apple, but I'm starting to get a little hesitant. First, .mac became a subscription. Now, iLife. What's next year? Safari?

five04
Jan 6, 2004, 01:57 PM
ilife is free if you buy a new mac, does that mean if i go by an ibook today i'll still get ilife 04 when it's released for free?

UPDATE: i've called both apple.com and a local apple retail location and neither knows if there will be a coupon. i was told to call back while they research it.

Stella
Jan 6, 2004, 01:57 PM
Boring :-(

mini ipod is way too expensive.

For $50 more you get a 15gig model... $249 is too expensive for the target market. $199 would have been good.

Shame that the majority of the planet have to wait two extra months.

iApps are now payware for updates.

Disappointment.

Garage is good for Musicans

XServe G5 is also good.

good that iPhoto publishing stuff will be available to other countries.

Shame you have to buy iApp updates, unless you buy another Mac.

JohnGillilan
Jan 6, 2004, 02:09 PM
Is there any update to iTunes?? That wasn't made particulary clear in the Keynote.

memphismac
Jan 6, 2004, 02:09 PM
Here's one more worried that the iLife apps will be come for-sale programs and not downloads. I don't need iMovie or iDVD, or even GarageBand. Just iTunes and IPhoto.

And the iPod mini = BIG letdown.


Brian

dukemeiser
Jan 6, 2004, 02:10 PM
Yes, it is a terrible shame that we should have to pay for quality applications. These should be FREE! Because, as you know, it is such a pain in the rear to have to actually spend money for something.
And Mircrosoft expects me to pay for Office 2004? Get real! It should be free too...

Please people, stop whining. Why should Apple spend $ and time on great software and then give it away? Doesn't sound like a very good business model to me.

I just ordered my copy of iLife, you can too.

Le Big Mac
Jan 6, 2004, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Lanbrown
Nope, or why would they say all new Macs will get it and they have an up to date program as well. If they were free downloads, they wouldn't have to have an up to date program. You want the new versions you need to pay the money.

Isn't that the same thing as being able to buy the system software upgrades on CD/DVD, because you don't want to take 2 days dowloading over 56k (if that's all you have?)

Seems like a total rip-off for anyone buying a mac today not to get iLife for free. But I can understand charging folks who can't/won't download.

Sabbath
Jan 6, 2004, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by BeyondCloister
Just a shame that the new iLife costs so much in the UK compared to the US.

£39 ($71) in the UK compared to the £26 ($49) in the US. There is no way tax is that bad here.

I guess we should think ourselves lucky that the dollar is so weak right now otherwise it might of cost even more!

Its even worse with education prices, they just change the currency straight from dollars to pounds without any exchange consideration. £29 ($52) in the uk and $29 in the US.

And I would complain about the iPod mini being 2 months later over here, but its the first really ugly apple product for ages. I really hope those images dont do the actual product justice.

kkeim
Jan 6, 2004, 02:11 PM
All in all, what a disappointing keynote. The mini logic seems to be flawed. Would have been far more impressive if it were $49 LESS than the competition. By the same logic why not just pay $49 more and get a regular iPOD with its great storage capacity?

And as impressive as Garage Band is, for most people who are not musicians, and who don't have any of the peripherals, it's no big deal.

And the classical music addition is nice to iTunes, but there's still no way to easily organize classical playlists, as you need to retype titles to make sure the play in the right order, which is not alphabetical.

Watched whole keynote (with some naps) to hear about a truly great new product, but it never came.

rwclark
Jan 6, 2004, 02:11 PM
Are they making us pay for the iPhoto upgrade? What a shame. It's always been a free application. To tell you the truth it is so slow as to be almost unusable on my brand new Aluminum PowerBook. I was hoping the performance improvements might make me reconsider it as an option for managing photos.

Le Big Mac
Jan 6, 2004, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by dukemeiser
Yes, it is a terrible shame that we should have to pay for quality applications. These should be FREE! Because, as you know, it is such a pain in the rear to have to actually spend money for something.


Sure, but that means they have to start competing with other products. Why should I pay for iPhoto if Kodak gives me a free program that I can use with ofoto, and get prints for 29c each, instead of iPhoto's 49c each?

Rower_CPU
Jan 6, 2004, 02:14 PM
It doesn't appear as if there is a new version of iTunes at all. The new Billboard chart functionality is server-side, within the Music Store.

We already have it, so no need to complain. ;)

jernie
Jan 6, 2004, 02:15 PM
Well, if we are going to share photos through Iphoto, it is time to make a windows version, too.

On the whole I like the new Ilife. But the remark that 50% of the households have a musician, doesn't seem to make much sense. I play the french horn. So? Now I can play french horn through a keyboard?

spice weasel
Jan 6, 2004, 02:17 PM
I don't understand why so many people are complaining. At this point it's still not clear whether or not the suite will be available as a free download (sans iDVD and GarageBand). If it is, then there is no basis for complaining. If it isn't, you'll still be able to download iTunes for free, and the old version of iPhoto and iMovie still work very well. Since Soundtrack($299) is now part of GarageBand, paying $49 for the whole shebang seems like a great deal to me. And it's only $29 with edu discount.

If you don't need it or want it, don't buy it. I'd gladly pay the $29 just to play around with GarageBand.

pivo6
Jan 6, 2004, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by dukemeiser
Yes, it is a terrible shame that we should have to pay for quality applications. These should be FREE! Because, as you know, it is such a pain in the rear to have to actually spend money for something.
And Mircrosoft expects me to pay for Office 2004? Get real! It should be free too...

Please people, stop whining. Why should Apple spend $ and time on great software and then give it away? Doesn't sound like a very good business model to me.

I just ordered my copy of iLife, you can too.

It was inevitable that Apple started charging for iApps, and $49 is not too bad if you use all of the programs. I personally don't use iMovie or iDVD so do I want to spend the money on an iPhoto upgrade and Garage Band? I haven't made up my mind yet.

bograt
Jan 6, 2004, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by dukemeiser
Yes, it is a terrible shame that we should have to pay for quality applications. These should be FREE! Because, as you know, it is such a pain in the rear to have to actually spend money for something.
And Mircrosoft expects me to pay for Office 2004? Get real! It should be free too...

Please people, stop whining. Why should Apple spend $ and time on great software and then give it away? Doesn't sound like a very good business model to me.

I just ordered my copy of iLife, you can too.

Give the customer what they want... its the best business model that there is I'm afraid. I am more than willing though to pay £26 for iLife 04 - but £39 - thanks whoever pointed out this obvious inequity in the universe, thankfully I have friends in America!

sosumi99
Jan 6, 2004, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by dukemeiser
Please people, stop whining. Why should Apple spend $ and time on great software and then give it away? Doesn't sound like a very good business model to me.

I just ordered my copy of iLife, you can too. [/B]

Please people, if you have the money to burn, go for it. For the rest of us who wish Apple would fix the slow iPhoto, whose price was included in the price we paid for our machines on the assumption that the slowness would be fixed, we should complain as loud as we want without hearing your sarcasm.

MM2270
Jan 6, 2004, 02:20 PM
I have to chime in here as well and say that I'm also disappointed in some of the news today. NOT that I'm disappointed in the products themselves mind you. I just don't like that I have to now BUY the entire iLife suite. I already have iTunes, I rarely use iDVD, so I don't have a strong need for that. GarageBand is definitely a cool new app, but I personally have no need for it. iMovie is fine the way it is, although the new features are welcome. Overall, I really only need iPhoto, because the current version is a dog in perfomance, so the new speed enhancements I REALLY want. So, I'm supposed to pay $50 for iPhoto, and discard the rest! Come on Apple! Stop nickle and diming us already! This marks a bad departure from the past where iTunes, iPhoto and iMovie have been free downloads for so long. This could be the 1st time I don't upgrade to the new versions. Disappointing. :(

And those new iPod minis--- what the ***** are they thinking pricing it at $250!! That does NOT target the cheap flash MP3 player users at all! It's only a mere $50 cheaper than the 15 Gig iPod!! Why would anyone buy this!?
Now, I'm not one of those who believes Apple should have a $100 iPod. That's just not realistic, but $199 WOULD have been realistic. Apple, Apple, Apple, what are ya doin'! Take a small hit on price and you corner the market! Idiots! I really don't get their pricing schemes at times. Stop trying to make so much profit, and think of the big picture already! :confused:

JohnGillilan
Jan 6, 2004, 02:21 PM
Props to Apple for the StarWars titling in iMovie 4. That gave me a good laugh.

msephton
Jan 6, 2004, 02:22 PM
What about if we bought/qualified for Panther recently? Do we qualify for the iLife update?

smigs
Jan 6, 2004, 02:24 PM
I wonder about the builiding of an Idvd project without a superdrive. I hope it makes a Video_TS/Audio_TS folder and I can burn it with toast! Way to expensive to put an internal burner in my Tibook.

smigs

JohnGillilan
Jan 6, 2004, 02:26 PM
I just bought an iBook less than 2 weeks ago. Do you think they will offer me an up-to-date "free" (minus the bogus 19.99 processing, shipping for an envelope) upgrade?? How big of a window do they usually allow for stuff like this??

prophboy
Jan 6, 2004, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by jernie
Well, if we are going to share photos through Iphoto, it is time to make a windows version, too.

On the whole I like the new Ilife. But the remark that 50% of the households have a musician, doesn't seem to make much sense. I play the french horn. So? Now I can play french horn through a keyboard?

I think the idea was that you can record your French horn and, like, e-mail it to your Grandma or something.

And I doubt there will be an iPhoto for Windows - iTunes only migrated because of the music store, and they would gain little benefit from porting the rest of the iApps. The whole sharing via Rendezvous thing is more than likely ramping up for some kind of home-media server or something that will share to a TV, methinks.

sosumi99
Jan 6, 2004, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by MM2270
And those new iPod minis--- what the ***** are they thinking pricing it at $250!! That does NOT target the cheap flash MP3 player users at all! It's only a mere $50 cheaper than the 15 Gig iPod!! Why would anyone buy this!?
Now, I'm not one of those who believes Apple should have a $100 iPod. That's just not realistic, but $199 WOULD have been realistic. Apple, Apple, Apple, what are ya doin'! Take a small hit on price and you corner the market! Idiots! I really don't get their pricing schemes at times. Stop trying to make so much profit, and think of the big picture already! :confused:

This is so typical of Apple. I was hoping that they would not drop the ball on this, but it looks like they did. That $50 difference between what they should be charging and what they are charging for these things will kill Apple's potential to dominate here. Oh well, this is nothing new for us.

CaptainScarlet
Jan 6, 2004, 02:26 PM
Well the mini iPods are neat...And iLife package is OK...But now what...


Nothing....

I think Apple went overboard with those mini's....Why does everything apple does cost so much damm money!?!?!?!

They could have made a less expensive product that Wal Mart could sell....


Sometimes when you think your stuff is the best, you forget where you came from....

bdkennedy1
Jan 6, 2004, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by Lanbrown
Nope, or why would they say all new Macs will get it and they have an up to date program as well. If they were free downloads, they wouldn't have to have an up to date program. You want the new versions you need to pay the money.

Wrong. All new Macs have always had iLife installed. The up-to-date program is for people that want the whole iLife package. iPhoto, iTunes and iMovie will still be free downloads.

johnnyjibbs
Jan 6, 2004, 02:30 PM
GarageBand and iDVD 4 are worth the price for me alone. I'll take iPhoto as well. iMovie 4 is a disappointment but I use FCE anyway (don't think I'll bother upgrading though - nothing particualrly new in there). GarageBand is just what I'm looking for.

What happened to iPhoto 3? I guess they wanted them all to be version 4 for iLife '04. Strange that they're advertising Microsoft Office on the Apple front page though (I know it's a direct quote from Steve!).

There may be free downloads of iPhoto and iMovie in a couple of weeks but don't hold your breath. iLife updates are probably another revenuee stream we're going to have to get used to. Personally I'm glad the price remained the same. I had a terrible feeling he was going to say "only for $99" after comparing that plethora of PC programs. About to order it now.

jasonbw
Jan 6, 2004, 02:30 PM
First off, the charts are incomplete. i decided to look at what was popular in 1975, year of my birth. gee, i'm so happy i wasn't really aware at that age. the top song was 'love will keep us together' :<

#2 is missing, as is #14,21,23,24....a notable amount.

The other mistake, and whats really funny...#45 is feelings-by the offspring. i wonder what else is out of place like that.

iEric
Jan 6, 2004, 02:31 PM
I was wondering if you need the previous iLife to use this new iLife..or can we use this iLife for the iApps included in Panther??

swissmann
Jan 6, 2004, 02:31 PM
I love iDVD's new pro compression! Other features nice too. I'm buying it just for iDVD. Improvements all around are welcome.

Ivo
Jan 6, 2004, 02:35 PM
Did I miss something or did Steve Jobs not spend one word on the fact that iTunes Music Store still works in the US only?

'Biggest online music store in the world' - well okay, there isn't one that's bigger in this world so technically he's correct but 'biggest online music store in the USA' would be a somewhat fairer description I think.

I can understand that it must be quite a hassle to get copyright deals worldwide - the success of iTunes Music Store sofar could even make negotiations harder because now the record companies smell the money.

But what starts to annoy me is that it's just not mentioned anymore - no updates, no apologies, no plans.

I was hoping for an annoucement on iTMS availability outside US in this keynote speech. Giving this presentation just pretending that every mac user in the world can purchase and download songs, when in fact a substantial part of the worldwide mac community cannot do this at all, is just not a very nice thing to do

When I surf to the iTMS from where I'm located, I get a 'country warning'. And that's not to warn me that there's country music available on iTMS, it's to tell me that I still can't purchase music. Very frustrating.

I'm probably drifting a bit off-topic here but if anyone's got any recent news on iTMS in Europe I'd be very much interested.

Otherwise: Nice upgrades, nice new app and as a long time Logic user and Emagic customer I'm pretty sure that Garage Band will kick ass.

TMay
Jan 6, 2004, 02:35 PM
iTunes is always available as a download. The question is whether iPhoto will be. Steve said nothing about downloads one way or another.

Chill until there's some more information.

To those that aren't musically inclined, and therefore haven't any use for Garageband.

I'm not musically inclined, but, I still expect to get something out of Garageband using the loops to create soundtracks and voice over. A bit better than creating it in iMovie (even though I will be using FCE).

To put things in perspective: I just spent $14K on Pro/e upgrades plus $9k on forward maintenance, and, with the exception of Pro/Concept, I have to run this on a PC (VPC?). Count our blessings that at least you have the choice of purchasing iLife for the mac.

milatchi
Jan 6, 2004, 02:36 PM
iPod mini should have been: 1GB = $149 and 2GB=$199. That would have killed the Flash Card music market.

We don't need any of Apple's products at WAL*MART becasue Apple couldn't keep up with WAL*MART's demand and Apple would never lower their price's for WAL*MART and WAL*MART requires you to lower your price to sell a product through them! (Hell, Apple won't lower their prices for any retail store that I know of.)

numediaman
Jan 6, 2004, 02:37 PM
If you already own a G5 then I guess it was an OK Keynote. But if you are in the market for a new desktop, laptop or display, you have to go somewhere else. All in all, I can't imagine being more disappointed in Apple.

As an aside, Jobs, as usual, did a great job. He is certainly the coolest CEO out there. Too bad he had nothing to announce.

ldkaplan
Jan 6, 2004, 02:38 PM
I was really hoping for a compatability update for iChat, like chat with AOL or an MS version.

Regarding the mini iPod, I do see that many people will spend the extra $50 for the larger version. However, there is a group of users who would appreciate the solid state design such as runners.

People need to stop complaining about not getting free updates. Be happy you have at least some version for free. If you use it a lot, the $ for a new version is worth it. The software is realtively cheap, given the alternatives.

Vroem
Jan 6, 2004, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by jernie
I play the french horn. So? Now I can play french horn through a keyboard? I don't like french horn solo's very much, maybe you can make a composition with some other instruments and mix in the 'real' horn? :D

mike czech
Jan 6, 2004, 02:42 PM
WHY is Apple using "Microsoft Office" in it's description for iLife?!?!?!?

Has "Microsoft" EVER been written on apple.com's front page? I feel like I'm in a bad dream...

tny
Jan 6, 2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Le Big Mac
Isn't that the same thing as being able to buy the system software upgrades on CD/DVD, because you don't want to take 2 days dowloading over 56k (if that's all you have?)

Seems like a total rip-off for anyone buying a mac today not to get iLife for free. But I can understand charging folks who can't/won't download.

Anyone buying a Mac today does get iLife for free ... the version that shipped with their machine. I imagine that point updates will be free through software update. iTunes will always be free. For everything else, if you want the full version updates, you have to pay.

mc717990
Jan 6, 2004, 02:44 PM
I checked with the apple store in St. Louis - the guy there said that probably iPhoto, iTunes, and iMovie will continue to be free downloads for update purposes. This isn't for sure, but he said its likely. Like last year, we've got a bit of waiting till they release the updates for us to download (assuming they do), so I imagine in a week or two we'll be able to download the updates.
Jason

Kid Red
Jan 6, 2004, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Le Big Mac
Isn't that the same thing as being able to buy the system software upgrades on CD/DVD, because you don't want to take 2 days dowloading over 56k (if that's all you have?)

Seems like a total rip-off for anyone buying a mac today not to get iLife for free. But I can understand charging folks who can't/won't download.

If you buy a mac it is free in case you missed that part.

movabi
Jan 6, 2004, 02:47 PM
I will not pay a dime for iphoto or itunes. In my opinion they should all be a part of panther. The OS as digital hub. I suggest people really check out qpict. Its certainly more robust than the current iphoto in sorting and handling large amounts of photos. I can't say anything about the future iphoto since i haven't tried it. But if i have to buy a program, i'd much rather give my money to a 3rd party who actually emails me personally when i have an application question.


What i would have liked to see at this media event, is a panther tuneup.... especially some under the hood finder performance tweaking.

Before i get attacked by apple can do no wrong pundits... Its just my 2 cents worth from a person who has been taught to be a critical thinker.

AMPrkm
Jan 6, 2004, 02:49 PM
C'mon people, calm down! Exactly a year ago, when the whole iLife thing was first announced and Steve mentioned the CD bundle, everyone immediately assumed that they would have to pay for the new versions of iPhoto and iMovie. Now we have a new version of iLife out, and people are fearing the EXACT same thing! Don't we have any institutional memory here? Past history indicates that even though downloads were not mentioned, they are very likely to be available. The new iLife suite is NOT OUT YET, so it makes total sense that you can't download the free apps yet. Check back on the 16th.

The iPod pricing complaints are also very familiar. When the original 5GB version came out, everyone complained that no one would ever buy a $300 music player. Nearly 2 million iPods later, once again we're rushing to judge Apple as being incapable of doing market research properly. It remains to be seen whether the iPod mini turns out to be a hit or not, but folks, understand that the marketing people at Apple are not amateurs! Quite frankly, if you'd rather spend $50 more to get a 15GB iPod, Apple will very happily sell you one of those (upselling is a good business strategy).

Dahl
Jan 6, 2004, 03:02 PM
I don't mind paying for some updates, if they are good, but the iPhoto update was kinda lame.
I hhave been wanting to do creative things with that app for a long time, but they are behind others now. :(

I'm interested in more and better printing options. Imagestation ( the Sony company ) offers prints for $.19 now and Apple still wants $.49 !!!
The book options are the same, no printing on both sides of the paper or book types. The rating feature is silly and worthless, why rate a bad picture, you should just get rid of it.
At least the rest of the world can make books now.

Maybe I should get Extensis Portfolio (http://www.extensis.com/portfolio/index.html?ref=hp) instead ?

Lanbrown
Jan 6, 2004, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by five04
ilife is free if you buy a new mac, does that mean if i go by an ibook today i'll still get ilife 04 when it's released for free?

UPDATE: i've called both apple.com and a local apple retail location and neither knows if there will be a coupon. i was told to call back while they research it.

With the up to date program it will be free, but they mentioned shipping and handling which was $19.95.

OnaMacSince1989
Jan 6, 2004, 03:06 PM
iPhoto should remain a free download or at least available individually for say $10 or $20. (It definitely should be free for .Mac members!) I have no use or need for iDVD, iMovie, or GarageBand, and I will not pay $49 just for an update to iPhoto. I think Apple's iApps are great, but why do I have to buy a whole fruit basket when I just want a banana? Even MS lets you buy Word individually if you don't need the whole Office suite. Apple's website mentions that iTunes will still be available as a free download (of course, since the only reason it exists is to sell iPods), but does not mention any of the other apps in iLife04 as being available individually for free or otherwise. I suppose if Apple sold digital cameras that were only compatible with iPhoto, it would forever be a free dowload too!

PS - I guess I can wait another year for a $99 iPod...As long as Apple can't make the current iPod fast enough to keep up with consumer demand, there is no incentive for them to cut prices to the bone just yet.

Lanbrown
Jan 6, 2004, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Le Big Mac
Isn't that the same thing as being able to buy the system software upgrades on CD/DVD, because you don't want to take 2 days dowloading over 56k (if that's all you have?)

Seems like a total rip-off for anyone buying a mac today not to get iLife for free. But I can understand charging folks who can't/won't download.

If you buy a Mac today you get it for free (excluding S&H) and if you wait, it will already be on the system when you get it. There is a difference between software updates and new releases.

MattG
Jan 6, 2004, 03:10 PM
Not as much in this Mac user website as in other Mac user websites *cough cough spymac cough*, but I can't believe how many people are whining about the price of iLife! $49 ($29 educational) is a STEAL for all of those applications!

MacsRgr8
Jan 6, 2004, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by mike czech
WHY is Apple using "Microsoft Office" in it's description for iLife?!?!?!?

Has "Microsoft" EVER been written on apple.com's front page? I feel like I'm in a bad dream...

Yep, when Office v. X was launched.

IMHO, I think is was pretty wel put: M$ Office for the "office stuff", iLife for the rest of your life.
Everyone knows what he meant...

johnnyjibbs
Jan 6, 2004, 03:15 PM
iDVD seems to be everything I wanted and more! 2 hours is great and the transitions between menus and stuff looks superb. It looks like there's more to iDVD 4 than the website suggests!

I'd bet on new PowerMacs either next Tuesday or the week after. It felt as though Steve almost tripped up when he mentioned the G5 in his closing summary. Plus, with dual G5 2GHz in a 1U enclosure, there's got to be more coming for the towers...

JBracy
Jan 6, 2004, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by BeyondCloister
Just a shame that the new iLife costs so much in the UK compared to the US.

£39 ($71) in the UK compared to the £26 ($49) in the US. There is no way tax is that bad here.

I guess we should think ourselves lucky that the dollar is so weak right now otherwise it might of cost even more!

Don't blame Apple for the fact that your government charges 17.5% Tax. The US price does not include sales tax which is dependent on where you live. So if you take tax out of the equation then the cost is £33 which is using an average $1.50 = £1. I know that is not todays exchange rate, but it is a fair historical conversion. You don't expect Apple UK to change their prices every day do you?

Lanbrown
Jan 6, 2004, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by bdkennedy1
Wrong. All new Macs have always had iLife installed. The up-to-date program is for people that want the whole iLife package. iPhoto, iTunes and iMovie will still be free downloads.

Prove that is still the case? Just because they were doesn't mean they always will be. Those applications also came with the OS as well. Panther was released not too long ago.

I guess we shall see on the 16th.

jholzner
Jan 6, 2004, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by dukemeiser
Yes, it is a terrible shame that we should have to pay for quality applications. These should be FREE! Because, as you know, it is such a pain in the rear to have to actually spend money for something.
And Mircrosoft expects me to pay for Office 2004? Get real! It should be free too...

Please people, stop whining. Why should Apple spend $ and time on great software and then give it away? Doesn't sound like a very good business model to me.

I just ordered my copy of iLife, you can too.

I completely agree. Any singe one of those apps is worth 50 bucks and we get them all for that. Apple has to make money on these things...or at least make a smaller lose. I'm sure that any other company could not develope and sell these things for this cheap.

smileynev
Jan 6, 2004, 03:27 PM
I'm sorry, but we already pay a significant premium on the hardware that we purchase over the competition. Apple has always offered iMovie, iTunes, and iPhoto as free downloads. Its one of the benefits of using a mac, free software thats tightly integrated to the hardware and the OS. If they change that now its bad marketing and a slap in the face to all of us who have supported their products over the years.

I will not pay for these updates, as they should be free.

Stella
Jan 6, 2004, 03:27 PM
$49US is a steal if you use all the products.

Personally, like other people, I will only use iPhoto.

I have an iBook, so I don't need iDVD, i also don't need iMovie or Garage.

I'm not paying $49 for just iPhoto.

Last year didn't SJ say that the updated iApps were going to be free downloads? I think so, but this year, he didn't say that - only that it was apart of iLife 4 which you can buy.

Unfortunately, iApps are now payware.

Originally posted by MattG
Not as much in this Mac user website as in other Mac user websites *cough cough spymac cough*, but I can't believe how many people are whining about the price of iLife! $49 ($29 educational) is a STEAL for all of those applications!

jholzner
Jan 6, 2004, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by OnaMacSince1989
iPhoto should remain a free download or at least available individually for say $10 or $20. (It definitely should be free for .Mac members!) I have no use or need for iDVD, iMovie, or GarageBand, and I will not pay $49 just for an update to iPhoto. I think Apple's iApps are great, but why do I have to buy a whole fruit basket when I just want a banana? Even MS lets you buy Word individually if you don't need the whole Office suite. Apple's website mentions that iTunes will still be available as a free download (of course, since the only reason it exists is to sell iPods), but does not mention any of the other apps in iLife04 as being available individually for free or otherwise. I suppose if Apple sold digital cameras that were only compatible with iPhoto, it would forever be a free dowload too!

PS - I guess I can wait another year for a $99 iPod...As long as Apple can't make the current iPod fast enough to keep up with consumer demand, there is no incentive for them to cut prices to the bone just yet.

iTunes does not exist to simply sell ipods. the iTMS does but not iTunes...iTunes was out long before th iPod. They released it because they messed up and let the cd burning craze pass them by...now they've more than caught up.

Some_Big_Spoon
Jan 6, 2004, 03:28 PM
it's been said before, and it will be said countless thousands of times to come: Mac OSX now Costs $180, not $129.

"iLife" or the applications that it encompasses, are much of the reason people use a mac.. that reason will now cost an additional $49 on top of the $129 cost that we all JUST paid..

I know, Apple's a company and does give a crap about us in reality, but man, this is just right in your face..

Le Big Mac
Jan 6, 2004, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Kid Red
If you buy a mac it is free in case you missed that part.

1) it's not free if you have to buy a $1000+ computer

2) I didn't miss it, especially the part that says anyone who purchases a mac on or after Jan. 6 that does not come with iLife '04 may pay $19.95 for iLife up-to-date to get a DVD with the new programs on it. My point was that those people should not have to pay anything--after all they're clearing out Apple's old stock for them.

biscool
Jan 6, 2004, 03:29 PM
When apple launched ilife last year, steve speciallfy mentioned that imovie, iphoto, and itunes were still free downloads. This year he said nothing. Get your wallet out...

Some_Big_Spoon
Jan 6, 2004, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by jholzner
I completely agree. Any singe one of those apps is worth 50 bucks and we get them all for that. Apple has to make money on these things...or at least make a smaller lose. I'm sure that any other company could not develope and sell these things for this cheap.

Exactly. Right on the head.

JayBee
Jan 6, 2004, 03:30 PM
2 thoughts:

iPod - pricing too high, not to compete with other players, but to compete with iPod! Seriously, how many are Apple going to sell when you can more than TRIPLE the capacity for fifty bucks? If they had kept the low end at 10 gigs, this would have made a little more sense, but frankly they're going to end up cannibalising their own market without making much of a dent in the target.

iPhoto - free hopefully, jury's still out. My major fear is that European printing will only work with the new update... So now I've got to pay £40 for functionality that has been available to the US for two years? Gee, thanks. What's next? iTMS is subscription based outside the US?

Of course, both of these are opinions, and hopefully I'm going to be wrong on both counts.

But I don't remember a Stevenote that left me feeling this grim since the .mac episode...

Ling
Jan 6, 2004, 03:32 PM
I don't think Steve will pull the iLife carpet out from under our feet at this point. I think that there are two reasons that the box is not a free download. One...The size of the programs, why they started charging for the box in the first place. And two...the work put inot garage band. It looks like a really kick-*** program.

I definitely think that it's worth 30 bucks just to get a functional version of iPhoto and Garage Band. As John Mayer pointed out, it looks like a really good tool to practice playing with. I only wish the new version of iPhoto was availible for download today as I'm leaving for vacation tomorrow...

1macker1
Jan 6, 2004, 03:35 PM
I don't think people would have a problem paying for iLife if it had started off for 49.99, but it didnt, so continue to offer it for free.
Originally posted by Some_Big_Spoon
Exactly. Right on the head.

aafuss1
Jan 6, 2004, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by jernie
Well, if we are going to share photos through Iphoto, it is time to make a windows version, too.

On the whole I like the new Ilife. But the remark that 50% of the households have a musician, doesn't seem to make much sense. I play the french horn. So? Now I can play french horn through a keyboard?

It'd b e hard for a windows version-some of ilife apps are coded in Cocoa.

johnnyjibbs
Jan 6, 2004, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Some_Big_Spoon
it's been said before, and it will be said countless thousands of times to come: Mac OSX now Costs $180, not $129.

"iLife" or the applications that it encompasses, are much of the reason people use a mac.. that reason will now cost an additional $49 on top of the $129 cost that we all JUST paid..

I know, Apple's a company and does give a crap about us in reality, but man, this is just right in your face..
I would have thought that, from now on, all retail copies of Panther will include the new iLife versions including GarageBand (iDVD is not included obviously).

However, Apple appears to be distancing the iLife applications from the OS itself. For example, Mail, Address Book and (to a lesser extent) Safari are part of the OS and are updated as part of that. The iLife applications are standalone updates.

I guess I'm not bitter about having to pay because I will get a lot of benefit for my £30 - much better iDVD, iPhoto and whole new app which will be useful to me (GarageBand). Those who just want the iPhoto upgrade though I can see why they would be pissed.

At least iLife hasn't become Panther-only. The complaints would have really been flying then...

One thing - I noticed that one of the new iDVD themes was Road Trip. If you "open package contents" on iDVD and look in "Resources" you will notice a number of themes that are not used (e.g. Roadtrip, Surfs Up, Portfolio, etc). You can open up their graphics and stuff but I've found no way of getting them to be recognised by iDVD. It seems as if they made some of the new themes before the update and then crippled iDVD for some odd reason. Anyone else noticed this?

sketchy
Jan 6, 2004, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Stella


iApps are now payware for updates.

Disappointment.


This is not new. I have a first gen FP iMac and I would have had to pay to get iDVD/iMovie upgraded. I think iPhoto will be free, but garage band, and the two previous listed, will not.

iPhoto and iTunes are switching applications, and they are the most used. I really doubt apple will charge for wither of them. and they will never charge for Safari.


I don't see the fuss. the apps are realyl good. if you think 49 is tooooo much you can purchase PS Elememts, I think roxio has some DVD software, and Peak LE to do the same type of stuff. I think that will be around 300 dollars.

pbreit
Jan 6, 2004, 03:43 PM
iLife + .mac for $100/year seems reasonable.

sketchy
Jan 6, 2004, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Ling
And two...the work put inot garage band. It looks like a really kick-*** program.

I definitely think that it's worth 30 bucks just to get a functional version of iPhoto and Garage Band.

It is a lite version of Soundtrack. Which is super cool.

EDIT: -- wow that sounds lame

Photorun
Jan 6, 2004, 03:56 PM
Great for all, yay! But that Ian guy... creepy!

jesus h christ
Jan 6, 2004, 03:58 PM
the 15gb iPod is only $269 with the edu discount, 4gb iPod is $229. Even I can do the math on this.

I've already ordered 2 copies of iLife (so I can get free shipping). Well worth the price for what you get. I can't imagine what Micro$oft would charge for something like GarageBand.

-
jhc

raptorhigh
Jan 6, 2004, 04:02 PM
I am going to order iLife today for one reason, and one reason alone...GarageBand. If it wasn't included, I simply wouldn't buy it. I love the idea of supporting companies like Apple, but I am not made of money.

FriarTuck
Jan 6, 2004, 04:04 PM
Get a job with Uncle Sam.

iLife w/ govt employee discount is only $24.50.

buffsldr
Jan 6, 2004, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by TMay
iTunes is always available as a download. The question is whether iPhoto will be. Steve said nothing about downloads one way or another.

Chill until there's some more information.

To those that aren't musically inclined, and therefore haven't any use for Garageband.

I'm not musically inclined, but, I still expect to get something out of Garageband using the loops to create soundtracks and voice over. A bit better than creating it in iMovie (even though I will be using FCE).

To put things in perspective: I just spent $14K on Pro/e upgrades plus $9k on forward maintenance, and, with the exception of Pro/Concept, I have to run this on a PC (VPC?). Count our blessings that at least you have the choice of purchasing iLife for the mac.

Ahhh... nice to know there is another Pro/e guy out there in macrumors. frankly, my mac is a nice break after a long day of failed regenerations. If i have to redefine one more time! Urrgh.

Only problem is, the items i design in pro/e sell for a lot more money than my iMovies. If it was the other way around, I would be a much happier mac user.

Having said that, I have no problem paying for iLife becuase I want iDVD. I do like the instant gratification of instant iPhoto/iMovie downloads though.

daddy-mojo
Jan 6, 2004, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by numediaman
If you already own a G5 then I guess it was an OK Keynote. But if you are in the market for a new desktop, laptop or display, you have to go somewhere else. All in all, I can't imagine being more disappointed in Apple.

As an aside, Jobs, as usual, did a great job. He is certainly the coolest CEO out there. Too bad he had nothing to announce.

Your post makes no sense at all (other then the cool ceo part). Everything that was announced today has something to do with just about everyone, plenty of people waiting on new xserves. New mini pods which I agree should be a little less, and will probably drop by 50 bucks come summer time. They've updated a lot of the systems in the last few months. More updates will be coming soon, think superbowl. They're updating these great apps to make them better and faster. Do we know if we'll have to pay for iphoto/imovie? No we don't but even if we do, its all good. Its a very inexpensive update with good features. We get what we pay for. Yes we pay more for our macs because they're the best. Look at it this way, 10 bucks an app. If you don't use them all well, maybe it will inspire you to try.

Some_Big_Spoon
Jan 6, 2004, 04:22 PM
Yes, but it's not $100, it's $150, $49+$99.. then you have to take into account the $129 OS update.. plus the mind boggling premium we spend on the hardware...

Originally posted by sketchy
This is not new. I have a first gen FP iMac and I would have had to pay to get iDVD/iMovie upgraded. I think iPhoto will be free, but garage band, and the two previous listed, will not.

iPhoto and iTunes are switching applications, and they are the most used. I really doubt apple will charge for wither of them. and they will never charge for Safari.


I don't see the fuss. the apps are realyl good. if you think 49 is tooooo much you can purchase PS Elememts, I think roxio has some DVD software, and Peak LE to do the same type of stuff. I think that will be around 300 dollars.

MarkCity
Jan 6, 2004, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by Ivo
Did I miss something or did Steve Jobs not spend one word on the fact that iTunes Music Store still works in the US only?

Hear hear. I was really hoping iTMS would be launched in Europe today... or at least some word of it. It's so frustrating. Still, at least it means I won't be tempted to start buying music online! I guess everyone outside the US will just carrying on downloading music for free.

It sucks that you have to pay for the iLife apps too. They should at least offer .Mac members the new software for free.

What a disappointing Expo, after all the anticipation. :mad:

autrefois
Jan 6, 2004, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by mike czech
WHY is Apple using "Microsoft Office" in it's description for iLife?!?!?!?

Personally, I think besides advertising for iLife, at the same time it's meant to be a sign that there won't be a new Apple iSuite or iWrite to replace Appleworks, like some people were thinking/hoping.

It seemed to me that Steve was saying buy Office for doing "work" and Apple will do iLife for "everything else". Maybe they've given up on the word processor/suite front.

btw--Was it just me, or did the welcome to Microsoft's new Office seem a little less than enthusiastic?

snofseth
Jan 6, 2004, 04:35 PM
All of the expos are dissapointments we should not get our hopes up, but then there would be no need for pages like these because really all they do is get our hopes up for new products but we see no proof till they are released. I would have been a little less dissapionted (can't spell) I they updated to other two Ipods, but the mini is usless to me the hard drive is a little to small I need like 7 it also looks funny to me. Ilife udates are good but if especially Itunes and Iphoto cost extra money I will be pistoff. I dont want to spend the money, when it used to be free. If Itunes isn't free it doesnt make sence though because down the line if you have to pay origionally to use the music store less would use it. Hopefully they just havent posted the updates yet

Lancetx
Jan 6, 2004, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Some_Big_Spoon
Yes, but it's not $100, it's $150, $49+$99.. then you have to take into account the $129 OS update.. plus the mind boggling premium we spend on the hardware...

And no one is putting a gun to anyone's head forcing them to buy anything either. It seems like every complaint I'm reading today is based on price, whether it's the iPod mini or the iLife suite. Bottom line is that it's a free enterprise, Apple can charge whatever they like and it's your choice whether or not to buy what they're selling.

Personally I think I'll pay up the $49 for the iLife suite because it's a pretty good deal when you compare it to any other remotely similar software package available for the Mac or for Windows either for that matter. I know people are complaining because they can't get something for free, but frankly Apple can do whatever they want, nobody is entitled to a free update to iMovie or iPhoto (unless they buy a new Mac starting today of course).

I don't see Microsoft or anybody else offering an equivalent to the iLife suite for less than $49, nor do I see Rio/Dell/Creative or anyone else offering anything comparable to the iPod mini for less than $249 either. So I really don't see why there is so much bitching going on today, it's certainly not justified at all... :rolleyes:

QCassidy352
Jan 6, 2004, 04:46 PM
people who are saying that apple has to make money:
yes, of course they do. But just as iTMS does not itself make much money, but rather encourages the sale of ipods, the iapps were not designed as money makers, but to encourage the sale of systems.

Now, you might say that new system owners still get ilife, so the goal of encouraging people to buy new macs is still met. But, that misses one essential point - although there was no explicit guarantee, there was an understanding that buying a mac entitled you to ilife updates.

That was what I thought when I bought my current computer (12" PB). Did apple promise anything? No. But even though it was only implicit that I would get ilife in the future, it was still an assumption that I, and many others, justifiably made. I, and others, feel deceived. I bought a PB in september. I bought Panther in October - and got no upgrade coupon for it.

I don't care if I'm unjustified in feeling cheated; it's still how I feel. Me and a lot of other people. And Apple had better care how the customer feels, whether those feelings are "reasonable" or not.

Foxer
Jan 6, 2004, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Lancetx
I know people are complaining because they can't get something for free, but frankly Apple can do whatever they want, nobody is entitled to a free update to iMovie or iPhoto (unless they buy a new Mac starting today of course).

True, but one of the things we bought into when we opted for Apple over Wintel was the expectation that Apple would continue to supply us with this software. Look, I think FCE2 looks cool but pricey, but I don't expect it for free. Ipod Minis are too expensive, but I don't expect a free one. However, for the past several years, I've been led to believe that the digital hub apps were and would remain free. They've been so imbedded in the OS that they can hardly be conisdered "optional extras."


On the whole, I was expecting to get burnt for buying a new PB this weekend, but it looks like it only cost me the cost of an iLife upgrade. Lucky me.

QCassidy352
Jan 6, 2004, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by Lancetx
And no one is putting a gun to anyone's head forcing them to buy anything either. It seems like every complaint I'm reading today is based on price, whether it's the iPod mini or the iLife suite. Bottom line is that it's a free enterprise, Apple can charge whatever they like and it's your choice whether or not to buy what they're selling.

Personally I think I'll pay up the $49 for the iLife suite because it's a pretty good deal when you compare it to any other remotely similar software package available for the Mac or for Windows either for that matter. I know people are complaining because they can't get something for free, but frankly Apple can do whatever they want, nobody is entitled to a free update to iMovie or iPhoto (unless they buy a new Mac starting today of course).

I don't see Microsoft or anybody else offering an equivalent to the iLife suite for less than $49, nor do I see Rio/Dell/Creative or anyone else offering anything comparable to the iPod mini for less than $249 either. So I really don't see why there is so much bitching going on today, it's certainly not justified at all... :rolleyes:

ah, it's funny that you were posting this just as I posted my last message. It doesn't matter if the bitching is justified. Suddenly charging for formerly free software pisses people off. And pissed off customers are customers who aren't going to buy from you again. And that's a problem for apple. "Justified" and "reasonable" have nothing to do with it.

Some_Big_Spoon
Jan 6, 2004, 04:59 PM
I think the core of the argument is that we (as Apple Consumers) should feel priviledged because we have the OPPORTUNITY to BUY iLife.. No mention, or thought given, to that we already pay a premium on hardware just simply to run the software (and i believe that ifApple were to release an x86 version of Mac OS their monopoly would collapse).. iLife apps were the right of the (double the) price of the hardware.. Now, to those that already have bought the premium priced hardware, the software is no longer a right, it's a priviledge which can be taken away at any time without warning..

Originally posted by QCassidy352
ah, it's funny that you were posting this just as I posted my last message. It doesn't matter if the bitching is justified. Suddenly charging for formerly free software pisses people off. And pissed off customers are customers who aren't going to buy from you again. And that's a problem for apple. "Justified" and "reasonable" have nothing to do with it.

rjfiske
Jan 6, 2004, 05:11 PM
I am a relatively new mac user (bought my first mac at "Night of the Panther"). I've only been reading these boards for a few months. Saw my first keynote speach from SJ today. Frankly I'm amazed at some of the negativity displayed by mac users re: iLife.

Here are some of the comments I've heard:
"I don't use GarageBand or iMovie or iDVD and iTunes will of course continue to be free and therefore Apple expects me to pay $49 for iPhoto?"
"I'm not a musician so I can't use Garageband"
"The iApps should be a free download".
"There's no confirmation that they'll be included if I buy a mac today."
"I already pay a premium for the hardware so the software should be free, or less expensive."
"Since iLife was free to begin with, it should be free now."

Apple is not a charity. They do things to make money. Apple is not a fly-by-night company... what they do is the best in the business. The best in the business costs more than the mediocre in the business. Apple is not immune to inflation... As time goes on, you will have to pay for upgrades. The upgrades cost money to bring them to you in the first place. Apple is not a cheap company. You pay a premium for the hardware because the hardware is a premium product, NOT so that you can use cheap software. The old version of iLife was free because it had old ways it was being used. Guess what? Your "free" iLife is still free! You're paying for an UPDATE... and a good one at that. Your car radio was free when you got your car. If a newer radio comes out you're going to have to pay for the upgrade to the new radio.

Finally, Apple (believe it or not) does NOT exist to please you and you alone. It exists to please as many people as possible. If you aren't a musician, don't use Garageband.. you still have 4 other applications to use. If you don't take photos, don't use iPhoto.. you have 3 left. If you don't have a camcorder, don't use iMovie (2 remaining). If you don't have a DVD burner and don't want to archive projects, don't use iDVD (1 more). And finally, if you don't want a high-quality music jukebox that works seamlessly with all of the other apps that your preferences have eliminated, then don't spend the $49 and just be happy that at the very least, you're using a quality operating system.

My point is not to single out any particular posters. Rather, it is to point out that today's keynote had something for everyone. I will never get a g5 XServe but am glad that Apple is providing it for someone. I don't know if I'm thrilled by having more slideshow transitions in iPhoto, but it will be nice. I don't use all of the 150 upgrades to Panther, but I do use some. I am very happy and impressed that Apple is innovating the way they are. I can't believe that the naysayers for iLife didn't find at least SOMETHING they liked about it. 2004 should be a great year for Apple and the iLife upgrade proves it.

Superdrive
Jan 6, 2004, 05:32 PM
Nobody said that iPhoto 04, iMovie, etc would not be included with 10.4. It is only $50, so I ordered mine as soon as I got back from work.

To those of you whining about having to pay for the new version, you got your's free when you bought your Mac. Apple owes you nothing beyond that so you should be thankful that updates were free as long as they were! For all you know, nothing will change with 10.4. Panther did not include Garageband and iDVD. Expect things included with Panther to be updated with the next $129 update. You all need to quit your whining just because the gravy train did not stop for you today. Welcome to the real world.

Superdrive

mxpiazza
Jan 6, 2004, 05:32 PM
i'm not going to quote the post before mine for space reasons, but i totally 100% agree. i already ordered my edu copy, and it'll be worth it for the iDVD upgrade alone (i just burned a dvd for my girlfriend and it was really funto make, i expect to do more soon, especially when i get a dv camera), and garageband will be a blast, too.

it's not like apple is selling their systems devoid of the iLife apps now, and are requiring you to spend $49 if you want them. spend the money if you want the UPGRADE... if it's not worth it to you, don't get it, no one is holding a gun to your head for the $49 in your wallet.

rdowns
Jan 6, 2004, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
Strange that they're advertising Microsoft Office on the Apple front page though (I know it's a direct quote from Steve!).

I just went to Apple's home page and refreshed 20 or so times. No Office there. What is there is this:

It's Microsoft Office for the rest of your Life

Introducing iLife '04

Dahl
Jan 6, 2004, 05:51 PM
We all know Apple isn't a charity, but I still think the upgrades are weak.
I would rather wait for Apple to have something worthwhile and then spend $49 or even more.
I don't need gimmick features like ratings and would rather see Apple focus on things where they are behind, like printing from iPhoto and the cost of that. ( $.49 vs. $.19 ) :rolleyes:

rjfiske
Jan 6, 2004, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Dahl
We all know Apple isn't a charity, but I still think the upgrades are weak.
I would rather wait for Apple to have something worthwhile and then spend $49 or even more.
I don't need gimmick features like ratings and would rather see Apple focus on things where they are behind, like printing from iPhoto and the cost of that. ( $.49 vs. $.19 ) :rolleyes:

I'm sorry Dahl, I don't see how you can say that this is a weak upgrade, particularly for $49. Every iApp has something added to it of substance and there is a BRAND NEW APP added to boot. If you want to pay $49 or more for a good photo manager that allows you to print for less, then that's fine. But that is one need of many. Some might even argue that "ordering prints from iPhoto" is a gimmick feature (I assume this is what you meant when you said printing from iPhoto).

Dahl
Jan 6, 2004, 06:23 PM
No, it's not what I meant.
The gimmick is rating your photos, but I guess some people think it's fun.
The main reason why I prefer iPhoto to others is that is integrated so well with the other apps. It's not that it's the best, then again, the other options are not cheap.

Printing a 4x6 from iPhoto is $.49, everybody sells cheaper prints than that.
That's ok, I can print from another site.

But I was looking forward to Apple catching up with the rest, when it comes to "creative" printing. The book printing options are not good enough.

iJon
Jan 6, 2004, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by rjfiske
I am a relatively new mac user (bought my first mac at "Night of the Panther"). I've only been reading these boards for a few months. Saw my first keynote speach from SJ today. Frankly I'm amazed at some of the negativity displayed by mac users re: iLife.

Here are some of the comments I've heard:
"I don't use GarageBand or iMovie or iDVD and iTunes will of course continue to be free and therefore Apple expects me to pay $49 for iPhoto?"
"I'm not a musician so I can't use Garageband"
"The iApps should be a free download".
"There's no confirmation that they'll be included if I buy a mac today."
"I already pay a premium for the hardware so the software should be free, or less expensive."
"Since iLife was free to begin with, it should be free now."

Apple is not a charity. They do things to make money. Apple is not a fly-by-night company... what they do is the best in the business. The best in the business costs more than the mediocre in the business. Apple is not immune to inflation... As time goes on, you will have to pay for upgrades. The upgrades cost money to bring them to you in the first place. Apple is not a cheap company. You pay a premium for the hardware because the hardware is a premium product, NOT so that you can use cheap software. The old version of iLife was free because it had old ways it was being used. Guess what? Your "free" iLife is still free! You're paying for an UPDATE... and a good one at that. Your car radio was free when you got your car. If a newer radio comes out you're going to have to pay for the upgrade to the new radio.

Finally, Apple (believe it or not) does NOT exist to please you and you alone. It exists to please as many people as possible. If you aren't a musician, don't use Garageband.. you still have 4 other applications to use. If you don't take photos, don't use iPhoto.. you have 3 left. If you don't have a camcorder, don't use iMovie (2 remaining). If you don't have a DVD burner and don't want to archive projects, don't use iDVD (1 more). And finally, if you don't want a high-quality music jukebox that works seamlessly with all of the other apps that your preferences have eliminated, then don't spend the $49 and just be happy that at the very least, you're using a quality operating system.

My point is not to single out any particular posters. Rather, it is to point out that today's keynote had something for everyone. I will never get a g5 XServe but am glad that Apple is providing it for someone. I don't know if I'm thrilled by having more slideshow transitions in iPhoto, but it will be nice. I don't use all of the 150 upgrades to Panther, but I do use some. I am very happy and impressed that Apple is innovating the way they are. I can't believe that the naysayers for iLife didn't find at least SOMETHING they liked about it. 2004 should be a great year for Apple and the iLife upgrade proves it.
well i must say that is an impressive post. i completly agree. ive been using all these apps since version 1, and some back in the os 9 days. i just look at these apps and i know no other company can produce something this good, cause no one has done it yet. about garage band, but it hink that makes it all worth it. but i think it takes an audio person who works around people or is in the business themself to realize the true value of the application. but to all the whiners out there, iDVD 3, iMovie 3, iPhoto 2 are all still kick ass programs so just use them.

iJon

MrEFord
Jan 6, 2004, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by rjfiske
I am a relatively new mac user (bought my first mac at "Night of the Panther"). I've only been reading these boards for a few months. Saw my first keynote speach from SJ today. Frankly I'm amazed at some of the negativity displayed by mac users re: iLife.

*clipped*

My point is not to single out any particular posters. Rather, it is to point out that today's keynote had something for everyone. I will never get a g5 XServe but am glad that Apple is providing it for someone. I don't know if I'm thrilled by having more slideshow transitions in iPhoto, but it will be nice. I don't use all of the 150 upgrades to Panther, but I do use some. I am very happy and impressed that Apple is innovating the way they are. I can't believe that the naysayers for iLife didn't find at least SOMETHING they liked about it. 2004 should be a great year for Apple and the iLife upgrade proves it.

Hey buddy, I COMPLETELY agree with you. To all the rest of y'all out there: I'm a college student, so it's not like I have cash to burn either. But Even I understand how cool the new iLife is gonna be. For those of you that only use iPhoto or one other app: What exactly do you want from Apple? Do you want them to custom sell to you just iPhoto for 7.95? Sheesh it's a package of great software, it's not like it's incredibly buggy and a detriment to society. Personally I think GarageBand alone is worth the money, and I'm not even a musician!

I think a lot of mac users in general are just greedy and whine way too much. I suppose Apple should have just charged for all these apps from the beginning so people wouldn't have anything to whine about. But nooo... we get to experience them for free for awhile and then when they finall ask for money, that's when the compainers come out.

Btw... those arguing that we already pay a lot for our computers: I would think twice before you call my G5 simply a premium machine. It's literally one of the fastest computers on the market. I'm not paying for a glitzy aluminum frame, I'm paying for speed and quality, and that's what folks get when they buy macs. Don't act like we're paying extra simply because. I think Apple deserves a little more credit than that.

I'm not quite sure why I wrote this, since it'll probably fall on the deaf ears of the hordes of mac users that get pissed whenever something new comes out that requires money. You don't like it? Get a PC, and tell me you're happy with that decision (and if you are, good for ya).

-E

movabi
Jan 6, 2004, 06:45 PM
I think that apple, by not to offering these apps as free, makes me want and pay for better solutions.

I thought the whole deal with Apple offering these applications is for people to support the platform and enable them to have applications to do basic functions on there computers out of the box. When you figure in all the things people have to buy on top of the OS and a fancy computer, the money starts adding up.

movabi
Jan 6, 2004, 06:47 PM
apple is wonderful... microsoft bad. How dare i try to voice an opinion. My bad.

Dahl
Jan 6, 2004, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by movabi
I think that apple, by not to offering these apps as free, makes me want and pay for better solutions.
That's how I feel, or at least I'll be looking into other products.

jimsen
Jan 6, 2004, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by MM2270
So, I'm supposed to pay $50 for iPhoto, and discard the rest!

hi. work an hour or two or four or eight, earn $50, and buy iPhoto. apple certainly spent more time developing it for you and you will certainly spend more time using it.

Potus
Jan 6, 2004, 09:12 PM
[i]...I'm not quite sure why I wrote this, since it'll probably fall on the deaf ears of the hordes of mac users that get pissed whenever something new comes out that requires money. You don't like it? Get a PC, and tell me you're happy with that decision (and if you are, good for ya).

-E [/B]

Amen, Brother! Last year I spoke with an HP rep. who was showing their huge printer (wall-size maps, etc.). He couldn't get over how much the Mac community complained about minutiae. His opinion: Mac users are spoiled. This thread proves it.

~Shard~
Jan 6, 2004, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by movabi
I think that apple, by not to offering these apps as free, makes me want and pay for better solutions.

I thought the whole deal with Apple offering these applications is for people to support the platform and enable them to have applications to do basic functions on there computers out of the box. When you figure in all the things people have to buy on top of the OS and a fancy computer, the money starts adding up.

It's 50 damn bucks!!! Can you not afford $50 for a powerful, great suite like iLife?! That's $10 an app! I have to shake my head when I read posts like this, geez...

blybug
Jan 6, 2004, 09:16 PM
The $49 is perfectly reasonable...I use all 4 apps and have already ordered the '04 upgrade (forgetting I qualify for the edu price and not even really caring). Looking forward to being able to fully use iPhoto like it was meant to be used.

I do have to say, however, that it would be nice if .mac membership qualified for discounts, or for assured free downloads of iPhoto & iMovie. It seems like such an obvious perk for .mac members, since iLife is so integrated with .mac, rather than the random free and discounted 3rd party software and games that come up on .mac now and then. This is the kind of thing I was expecting from the second year of .mac and so far it isn't really proving its worth.

~Shard~
Jan 6, 2004, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by Potus
Amen, Brother! Last year I spoke with an HP rep. who was showing their huge printer (wall-size maps, etc.). He couldn't get over how much the Mac community complained about minutiae. His opinion: Mac users are spoiled. This thread proves it.

Exactly - some of these posters are simply cheap and spoiled. Ah well, I guess there will always be people who want something for nothing and never want to pay money for anything. I mean come on, it's $49, you don't have to mortgage your house to buy iLife, come on people. Do you people honestly not think the quality of the apps is worth it? Quit complaining.

~Shard~
Jan 6, 2004, 09:21 PM
To be realistic, the free updates had to end at some point. And plus, $49 is a very reasonable price for such quality apps - that works out to $10 per app, which I think is a very reasonable price.

Some people are just never happy and don't want to pay anything for anything. Other people realize value in products, and don't mind paying a fair price for quality products. I think people who are going to pop on the warez sites and download the iLife updates are quite pathetic - cheapskates, essentially. And to them, I ask the question, "at what price would you pay for these types of apps? $30? $10? $.07?" Some people have no sense of worth and quality when it comes to things like this.

I think the new iLife is great, and I'll definitely be buying myself a copy, especially for GarageBand. :cool:

jimsen
Jan 6, 2004, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by ~Shard~

I think the new iLife is great, and I'll definitely be buying myself a copy, especially for GarageBand. :cool:

i agree. i have pro tools, mbox, logic, etc. but i'm still anxious to try out garageband. looks like a quick way of getting down demos, pre-production, etc. and for $50 you can't beat it!

noxes
Jan 6, 2004, 09:27 PM
hey in canada we only pay $60, that works out to 47 USD. But i get a edu discount for $40 CAD, which works out 31 USD, which isn't better then the US discount i think.

elgruga
Jan 6, 2004, 09:29 PM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

I am losing my mind. Didnt this argument just get dumped on the other thread?

Please - all the iApps were free and if you have iPhoto et al, you STILL have it.

If you dont like iPhoto for $10, then use the one that you got for free, and you will like it because its free.

If you buy a Mac today, you get the iLife package.

If you bought a Mac last week, they didnt have this stuff then, so you dont get it.

If you have always wanted an Apple-style music program, then Garageband is very attractive. I cant wait to get it.

Today was a good day for Apple, I enjoyed watching the show with Steve and that guitarist guy.

Perhaps you guys that only want GarageBand could give iPhoto to the people who wont pay for it?

anyway, its all moot because there is NO WAY that Apple is going to give you free software in this case.

elgruga
Jan 6, 2004, 09:32 PM
More to the point, does anyone know what the track limit is for GarageBand?
Or any specs/inside info?

Really looking forward to this program!

jimsen
Jan 6, 2004, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by elgruga
More to the point, does anyone know what the track limit is for GarageBand?


i think steve said 64 tracks....

i don't see it anywhere here:
http://www.apple.com/ilife/garageband/

but i am pretty sure he said 64 during the keynote.

QCassidy352
Jan 6, 2004, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by MrEFord
What exactly do you want from Apple? Do you want them to custom sell to you just iPhoto for 7.95?

I think a lot of mac users in general are just greedy and whine way too much. I suppose Apple should have just charged for all these apps from the beginning so people wouldn't have anything to whine about. But nooo... we get to experience them for free for awhile and then when they finall ask for money, that's when the compainers come out.

Btw... those arguing that we already pay a lot for our computers: I would think twice before you call my G5 simply a premium machine. It's literally one of the fastest computers on the market. I'm not paying for a glitzy aluminum frame, I'm paying for speed and quality, and that's what folks get when they buy macs. Don't act like we're paying extra simply because. I think Apple deserves a little more credit than that.

I'm not quite sure why I wrote this, since it'll probably fall on the deaf ears of the hordes of mac users that get pissed whenever something new comes out that requires money. You don't like it? Get a PC, and tell me you're happy with that decision (and if you are, good for ya).

-E

Yes, a single iapp for $7.95 is EXACTLY what I want (aside from them being free). Would that be so hard? I'd take it as a download - no cd and box necessary. It's simply incomprehensible why that isn't an option.

"Mac users are greedy." Sorry, but that's just not true. Mac users pay for a premium product and expect premium service.
Besides, I don't understand your thinking on this one (and, it seems, the thinking of many people here): "It used to be free, now it costs money, and I'm so happy about that!" I can understand if you don't want to complain, but honestly, how is anyone rating a new fee as a *positive* thing? It's acceptable at best.

You're paying for both style AND substance with your G5. Yes, it's a serious computer. But it's also a pretty toy that costs more than it should. That's especially true for some of the other products even more than the G5 (like the imac and ipod).

Telling people who are unhappy to "get a PC" is childish and pointless. This is a discussion board. You know, for differing view points to be expressed. Anyone who is unhappy with Apple should just leave? It's not acceptable to like Apple's products but be unhappy in one particular case?

Finally, the worst part of this whole thing is that the updates just aren't that impressive. The only one I want is iPhoto, and that's just because the old one is so badly flawed - not because the new one is so great. :rolleyes:

idkew
Jan 6, 2004, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by ~Shard~
To be realistic, the free updates had to end at some point. And plus, $49 is a very reasonable price for such quality apps - that works out to $10 per app, which I think is a very reasonable price.

Some people are just never happy and don't want to pay anything for anything. I ask the question, "at what price would you pay for these types of apps? $30? $10? $.07?" Some people have no sense of worth and quality when it comes to things like this.


I would gladly pay $10 for iPhoto, as I use it frequently. Why should I have to pay for 4 other programs I will never use? I do not make music. I have no video camera. No superdrive. No use for those apps. Since I have no option except buy $40 of useless 1s and 0s, and $10 useful apps, I think I am going to skip the paying part. Yell at me all you want, but unless I can buy iPhoto alone, I will not pay for it. Alternatively, send me $40 and I will be happy to add it to my $10 and send it to Apple.

BTW- I don't have a job, and I have a Chicago rent to pay. $50 to me is like $500 to you.

aethier
Jan 6, 2004, 09:54 PM
I must say i am embaressed on behave of all you people bitching about the price of everything. i guess you guys fell asleep for the part where SJ showed how much it would be for less powerfull 3rd party apps. 300 dollars. no intergration. I am embarresed for you people, for when new people come to this site and read these post, we will all look like idiots because the majority of people can't get over the fact that they have pay 50 whole dollars for 5 applications, who if made by anyother company would go for at least 50 dollars (aside from itunes). Be happy you have the oppertunity to get these great programs for cheap. Think of all the PC users who have to pay a lot of money just for a deasent dvd burning program. (isn't it pricy to use the mpeg2 codec? which you could have for less then 50 dollars when you buy ilife, i say less then 50 dollars, since idvd isn't the only program, and obviously the profit is devided). Like another thing, do you people think that apple employees wake up everymorning and go to work as volunteers? well these people get payed to make these great programs. and Apple would probably loose money if they did not sell it in some form. just be happy that its all four together not just idvd and garageband 50 dollars and the others for download. it gives you the chance to get them all and try them... anyways, you are the ones who sound rediculous not me. I too like some people am buying it, i asked my mother to take money out of my account and pick it up for me as soon as it is availuble at the local apple reseller.

and as for the iPod mini's. i find them cool. they are stylish and fun. and yes for 50 dollars more you can get a 15 gig ipod, but now that i see the mini's the look of my 15 gig ipod seems kiinda borring. and a lot of people who like "hip" things will get the mini for that reason. Like my brother, who i suggested to him the regular iPod for 50 dollars more, and more storage, is still getting the mini intead cause it looks nicer. not only that it is 50 dollars more then the flash 256 creative labs thing. some people going to buy the creative thing will see the mini for 50 more dollars, and will be able to justify spending the extra money, even if they see the 15 giger for only 50 more dollars then the mini, for some people an extra 100 dollars then they were planing is too much whereas 50 is not. i think / hope for apple that the mini's will be a success..

and as stated on the screensaves, the mini will probably drop in price it is just more now because apple is milking it for what it is worth. people like cool flashy colors..

aethier

idkew
Jan 6, 2004, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by aethier
I must say i am embaressed on behave of all you people bitching about the price of everything.

no one is "bitching" that they have to pay for iDVD or Garageband. People are "bitching" because they have to pay for programs they will never use. If Apple wants to charge $50 for 5 programs, where is this different than charging $40 for 4, $30 for 3, $20 for 2 and $10 for 1?

I see no difference, except that Apple wants the $50, knowing that a LARGE majority of Mac users do not have the ability or desire to use all 5 components. You say we are cheap, I say Apple is being greedy by forcing us to buy software we do not use nor want.

rog
Jan 6, 2004, 10:33 PM
Looks like it's carracho and Limewire time for many.

Earendil
Jan 6, 2004, 10:37 PM
Excuse me while I pick apart your post, it's the last one in the thread, and thus the easiest target :)

Originally posted by QCassidy352
Yes, a single iapp for $7.95 is EXACTLY what I want (aside from them being free). Would that be so hard? I'd take it as a download - no cd and box necessary. It's simply incomprehensible why that isn't an option.

By Golly, you're right! It isn't an option!! Of course, neither is purchasing it off a shelf at the moment, so hows about ya keep quiet when it comes to negative absolutes that aren't fact based until the 16th, aye?


"Mac users are greedy." Sorry, but that's just not true.

As an absolute, of course not, there is the other half of us that, while not outright giddy about the change, can sit back and say "Gee, paying for such an awesome program, that some guy broke his back and spent long nights working on, is a reasonable thing". We may not be happy, but we are reasonable.


Mac users pay for a premium product and expect premium service.


So he make an absolute statement, which you throw down, only to make one from the other view point? I'm thinking of a word that starts with an H...what is it....

As is obvious, half of us don't think that we deserve or "expect" premium service, at least not in the way of free apps and updates forever!


Besides, I don't understand your thinking on this one (and, it seems, the thinking of many people here): "It used to be free, now it costs money, and I'm so happy about that!" I can understand if you don't want to complain, but honestly, how is anyone rating a new fee as a *positive* thing? It's acceptable at best.


Um, where do I vote for "Paying for a new product is a good thing" ? I don't remember seeing that. But that aside, if you REALLY think about it, it *IS* a good thing <>the crowd gasps<> because that means they can CONTINUE to make great apps at a relatively low cost.


You're paying for both style AND substance with your G5. Yes, it's a serious computer. But it's also a pretty toy that costs more than it should. That's especially true for some of the other products even more than the G5 (like the imac and ipod).


Oh, I beg of you, please tell us what you'd charge for these products if you were running Apple. Please. And give us a hard number, not concepts that sound good but don't relate.


Telling people who are unhappy to "get a PC" is childish and pointless. This is a discussion board. You know, for differing view points to be expressed. Anyone who is unhappy with Apple should just leave? It's not acceptable to like Apple's products but be unhappy in one particular case?


Let me get this straight. You tell a man that what he had to say is "childish", and isn't getting anywhere, only to go on to say that this board is about expressing differing view points, which I suppose means you get to call his post "childish", and is of course productive. Right.
The H word comes to mind once again...


Finally, the worst part of this whole thing is that the updates just aren't that impressive. The only one I want is iPhoto, and that's just because the old one is so badly flawed - not because the new one is so great. :rolleyes:

This is probably, in my differing view point opinion, the worst part of your post. These aren't bug fixes, these are feature additions. No one is making you pay for them, and in fact you can forget about them and move on with life. I'm not complaining that the newest features added to [insert application name here] are a horrible thing, because I know that someone thought they were good, and someone worked hard to bring them to life, and yet another person out there will enjoy the features, and just because I don't enjoy them doesn't mean I have the right to put down another mans work. So while I'll except words like "the newest features don't pertain to my life much, better luck for me next time" I will not except negative feedback about something that isn't even SET IN STONE.

The people that think the right to express an opinion gives them a right to pointless whining irritate me.
and if anyone takes offense at that statement, guess what group you fall into.

Tyler
Earendil

1.25GHZ PB
Broke student that upon earning the money, will buy iLife

barrettd
Jan 6, 2004, 10:43 PM
So now you can use iDVD without a Superdrive, right? If I don't have a Superdrive, what are the chances of being able to use a Firewire drive with iDVD?

Thanks in advance if anyone knows!

BD

Earendil
Jan 6, 2004, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by idkew
no one is "bitching" that they have to pay for iDVD or Garageband. People are "bitching" because they have to pay for programs they will never use. If Apple wants to charge $50 for 5 programs, where is this different than charging $40 for 4, $30 for 3, $20 for 2 and $10 for 1?

I see no difference, except that Apple wants the $50, knowing that a LARGE majority of Mac users do not have the ability or desire to use all 5 components. You say we are cheap, I say Apple is being greedy by forcing us to buy software we do not use nor want.

*big long sigh*

while your argument sounds great, it falls through in one major point. iLife doesn't cost $250. If it did, I would side with you, because than you would be paying a reasonable $50 for programs you don't want. but instead, you are paying a price that is low for even a SINGLE program these days, let alone Five, and whining because Apple gives you 5 programs for the price of 1. Can you really not see this?

$50 is a great price for iMovie alone.
$50 is a great price for iPhoto alone.
$50 is a great price for iDVD alone.
$50 is a great price for GarageBand alone.
$50 is a great price for iTunes alone.

and dare I even say what an even better deal is? that's right folks, all 5 apps for $49, isn't that INDREDIBLE! Come on, say it with me, IN-CRED-IBLE.

People are seeing 5 apps for $50 and thinking that the absolute worth of every app is $10, and there for they shouldn't have to pay a dime more than that.

I hate to be this blunt, but we either have a sadly large percentage of idiots on this board, or people that love to complain and whine. I am not promoting blind zelotry (did I just make up a word?) for Apple, the people that have made valid and well thought out posts portraying there sadened opinion of the most recent apple news are not who I am speaking to, you know who you are. The rest of you...try and make your mothers proud.

Tyler
Earendil

davidkny
Jan 6, 2004, 10:52 PM
Someone may have already mentioned this, but as an iMac G4 (with CD RW) owner I found the following note regarding the new iLife apps very interesting:

"DVD drive required to install GarageBand and iDVD"

I do think it would be a bit galling for Apple to make those of us without DVD drives buy software we cannot even install on our machines in order to get upgrades to apps that we do use.

iMac G4
700 Mhz
512 RAM
40g hard drive

iJon
Jan 6, 2004, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by davidkny
Someone may have already mentioned this, but as an iMac (with CD rom) owner I found the following note regarding the new iLife apps very interesting:

"DVD drive required to install GarageBand and iDVD"

I do think it would be a bit galling for Apple to make those of us without DVD drives buy software we cannot even install on our machines in order to get upgrades to apps that we do use.
well please do share what computer you have, but if you dont have dvd rom your computer probably isnt going to rum those intensive programs worth a s***.

iJon

autrefois
Jan 6, 2004, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Earendil
I am not promoting blind zelotry (did I just make up a word?)

Not a new word, just a new spelling. :) It's "zealotry."

Superdrive
Jan 6, 2004, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by Earendil
...all 5 apps for $49, isn't that INDREDIBLE! Come on, say it with me, IN-CRED-IBLE.

People are seeing 5 apps for $50 and thinking that the absolute worth of every app is $10, and there for they shouldn't have to pay a dime more than that.


IN-CRED-IBLE!!!!
Yay for GB and iPhoto that works!

Superdrive

ipoddin
Jan 6, 2004, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by Superdrive
Nobody said that iPhoto 04, iMovie, etc would not be included with 10.4. It is only $50, so I ordered mine as soon as I got back from work.

To those of you whining about having to pay for the new version, you got your's free when you bought your Mac. Apple owes you nothing beyond that so you should be thankful that updates were free as long as they were! For all you know, nothing will change with 10.4. Panther did not include Garageband and iDVD. Expect things included with Panther to be updated with the next $129 update. You all need to quit your whining just because the gravy train did not stop for you today. Welcome to the real world.

Superdrive

Except many of us already paid $50 last year for iLife. Now, we have to pay full price for upgrades to software we've already paid for. What software company doesn't offer discounts for people who've bought previous versions? Adobe does it, even with their $49 photo album. If you own version 1.0, version 2.0 is only $29. So why is it so hard for Apple to do this? They do it with Final Cut Express and Pro. I'll gladly pay for these as I think each one by itself is worth it...

me_94501
Jan 6, 2004, 11:46 PM
My reasons for groaning over the lack of free downloads is simple. I don't want Mac OS X to lose points on xvsxp.com (http://www.xvsxp.com). :)

I'm kind of on the fence with this whole issue. I'd still like Apple to have iMovie and iPhoto as free downloads, but $49 is still cheap for five apps. Then again, the only apps I need are iMovie and iPhoto; I have absolutely no need for iDVD or GarageBand (not to mention neither of my Macs have the system requirements to take full advantage of either of those apps), so I'd essentially be throwing $20 away.

idkew
Jan 6, 2004, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by davidkny
Someone may have already mentioned this, but as an iMac G4 (with CD RW) owner I found the following note regarding the new iLife apps very interesting:

"DVD drive required to install GarageBand and iDVD"

I do think it would be a bit galling for Apple to make those of us without DVD drives buy software we cannot even install on our machines in order to get upgrades to apps that we do use.

iMac G4
700 Mhz
512 RAM...

You are reading this wrong. You need a DVD ROM, or a dvd reader to install this, as the apps prolly come on a dvd disc instead of a cd. You do NOT need a DVD RAM drive, or a dvd burner to install.

idkew
Jan 7, 2004, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by Earendil
*big long sigh*

while your argument sounds great, it falls through in one major point. iLife doesn't cost $250. If it did, I would side with you, because than you would be paying a reasonable $50 for programs you don't want. but instead, you are paying a price that is low for even a SINGLE program these days, let alone Five, and whining because Apple gives you 5 programs for the price of 1. Can you really not see this?

and dare I even say what an even better deal is? that's right folks, all 5 apps for $49, isn't that INDREDIBLE! Come on, say it with me, IN-CRED-IBLE.

People are seeing 5 apps for $50 and thinking that the absolute worth of every app is $10, and there for they shouldn't have to pay a dime more than that.

I hate to be this blunt, but we either have a sadly large percentage of idiots on this board, or people that love to complain and whine.

Tyler
Earendil

:confused:
go ahead and send apple a $250 check, as you believe this iL is worth it.

Also, you go very far when calling people idiots and whiners here. Whining is when you are saying "This sucks. I hate paying money." The way you are stating things, if you don't like what Apple says, you are immature. A well thought out, intelligent arguement does not equal whining.

On the other hand, those who happily accept Apple tried and true practice of turning freebies into fee-ies, you may either be too docile and afraid of confrontation or you are a Zealot.

They did it once with .Mac, just did it with iLife, what's next? iTunes updates costr for iPod'ers? Safari paid updates? 10.3.x paid updates? :confused:

Apple charged for iDVD with good reason- downloading several gigabytes of info it inconvienent or impossible for most people. Sell them a CD or DVD and they will be happy. iPhoto is not too large to download, ever for modem users, so that excuse goes out the window.

One more question: When you are at the grocery store, and you see a sign that says 3 for $9.00, do you buy three? Do you realize that you can buy one for $3?

As I stated before, the forced bundle is a way for Apple to make more revnue by not allowing consumers to purchse what is needed and necessary. Apple likes to dictate what we do and how we do it. Here is one more way for them to do that.

You say it is unfair to expect something for nothing. How is that different from expecting to pay for only what you want? After all, iPhoto runs independently of iDVD. One does not need the other to run. One just extends the usefulness of the other. Kinda sounds like Apple forcing you to upgrade your RAM if you buy a larger Hard Drive.

autrefois
Jan 7, 2004, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by idkew
You are reading this wrong. You need a DVD ROM, or a dvd reader to install this, as the apps prolly come on a dvd disc instead of a cd. You do NOT need a DVD RAM drive, or a dvd burner to install.

Which means a CD-RW drive won't work.

JBracy
Jan 7, 2004, 12:06 AM
I cannot believe that this thread is still alive! Come on people get a grip!

1) Apple has made no definitive statement as to wether or not iPhoto and iMovie will still be free downloads, so just wait a week until it's released and then start bitchin

2) Even if you do need to pay, Apple is not taking anything away. You still have iPhoto 2, iMovie 3 and iDVD 3. If you are happy with what you've got and don't want to pay for the upgrade, then it's up to you. It's not like Apple are saying your old apps are time bombed.

3) iLife is still a perk of buying a Mac. You just don't get free upgrades for life (maybe).

4) Show me 1 other manufacturer who gives away such useful, high quality software - and gives free upgrades as well.

5) You don't pay a premium to Apple for the free software included. You pay for a quality product with the best user experience available. And if any of you have tried to buy a comparable PC system you'll find that unless you build it yourself you'll probably pay a similar price. And what you save by building it yourself is lost on the cost of your time putting it all together and trouble shooting driver issues. (My time is worth ALOT more than what I'd save building a PC.)

In closing: GET A GRIP AND STOP WHINING!!!

idkew
Jan 7, 2004, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by autrefois
Which means a CD-RW drive won't work.

i didn't realize g4 imacs did not come with combo drives... well, there is one way to get around this if you know someone with a dvd drive. you can image the dvds (if this is the reason for the requirement) and transfer them over ehternet or via an ipod to your dvd-less computer and then mount the image and run the installer.

JBracy
Jan 7, 2004, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by idkew
One more question: When you are at the grocery store, and you see a sign that says 3 for $9.00, do you buy three? Do you realize that you can buy one for $3?


Actually you do. If it's posted 3 for $9.00 usually you'll find in fine print underneath saying "or $4.00 ea".

If I remember correctly from my time in retail it's actually illegal to advertise something in multiples if it is the same price individually - unless the item is actually packaged in multiples.

That's how retail stores get people to buy more than they would otherwise.

idkew
Jan 7, 2004, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by JBracy
Actually you do. If it's posted 3 for $9.00 usually you'll find in fine print underneath saying "or $4.00 ea".

If I remember correctly from my time in retail it's actually illegal to advertise something in multiples if it is the same price individually - unless the item is actually packaged in multiples.

That's how retail stores get people to buy more than they would otherwise.

you are mistaken then. i see it all the time at my local store.

JBracy
Jan 7, 2004, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by idkew
i didn't realize g4 imacs did not come with combo drives... well, there is one way to get around this if you know someone with a dvd drive. you can image the dvds (if this is the reason for the requirement) and transfer them over ehternet or via an ipod to your dvd-less computer and then mount the image and run the installer.

There was only ever 1 model without DVD the original "Good" 15" Flat Panel.

Rower_CPU
Jan 7, 2004, 12:22 AM
I've posed this question in another thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53942), but have yet to get a clear answer.

I think people are getting all worked up over the iLife package cost without any clear, definitive answer from Apple as to what will be freely downloadable and what will be included in the for pay package.

I, for one, am waiting until the 16th to get a clear answer, because what Steve didn't say and what C|NET "reports" are in no way a clear picture of the situation.

JBracy
Jan 7, 2004, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by idkew
you are mistaken then. i see it all the time at my local store.

I'd report them to the Better Business Bureau. It's misleading advertising. Maybe it's a State law in VA.

coumerelli
Jan 7, 2004, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by JBracy
Actually you do. If it's posted 3 for $9.00 usually you'll find in fine print underneath saying "or $4.00 ea".

If I remember correctly from my time in retail it's actually illegal to advertise something in multiples if it is the same price individually - unless the item is actually packaged in multiples.

That's how retail stores get people to buy more than they would otherwise.

he did say grocery stores...and that's exactly true here in Madison...two for $10 means 1 for $5...plain and simple...

However, I do not think that $49 is a bad price at all for iLife...for me, it just happens that I'll be using at least 3 of the 5 apps... yea me!

GregA
Jan 7, 2004, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by Some_Big_Spoon
I think the core of the argument is that we (as Apple Consumers) should feel priviledged because we have the OPPORTUNITY to BUY iLife.. No mention, or thought given, to that we already pay a premium on hardware just simply to run the software (and i believe that ifApple were to release an x86 version of Mac OS their monopoly would collapse).. iLife apps were the right of the (double the) price of the hardware.. Now, to those that already have bought the premium priced hardware, the software is no longer a right, it's a priviledge which can be taken away at any time without warning.. When we buy a Mac it costs more than a PC. But we get a better experience, and we get iApps.

Now, we have several yearly costs (all optional of course), such as upgrading the OS yearly, upgrading iApps yearly, paying a yearly .Mac fee. It's not something that's been there before so it seems to be another cost.

Personally, I would rather see Apple making money on these things, AND charging less of a premium for the computer itself. Maybe even setting up an "Apple account" - buy a Mac and get $200 credit to spend on future Apple products - iLife, Quicktime, .Mac, OS updates. That's not going to happen though.

I do agree with other posters who say "All I want is iPhoto, $50 is too much!". If Apple adds programs I don't want and charges as a bundle, that's LESS value to the consumer. An analogy - if I want to buy 1x $10 book and the store only sells it in a $30 bundle with 10 other books I don't like, it's a bad deal for me.

Maybe this is Apple starting to identify itself as a software company. Trying to find a sustainable model. Who knows.

coumerelli
Jan 7, 2004, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by JBracy
I'd report them to the Better Business Bureau. It's misleading advertising. Maybe it's a State law in VA.

And after having spent some time in the Commonwealth (not technically a state) of VA I'd be inclined to say it's just them...they've got all kinds of screwy laws...(Those aren't meant to be fightin' words - I went to college in VA, just poking).

idkew
Jan 7, 2004, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by JBracy
I'd report them to the Better Business Bureau. It's misleading advertising. Maybe it's a State law in VA.

here (http://dominicks.com/contact_us_01.asp) is their contact info on their web page (http://dominicks.com/default.asp)

idkew
Jan 7, 2004, 12:32 AM
sorry, forgot to attach the pict.

please call the BBB and the Police. They are breaking the law!

original page (http://dominicks.adinsertsonline.com/pageLarge.jsp?pageNumber=1&drpStoreID=1695)

me_94501
Jan 7, 2004, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
I've posed this question in another thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53942), but have yet to get a clear answer.

I think people are getting all worked up over the iLife package cost without any clear, definitive answer from Apple as to what will be freely downloadable and what will be included in the for pay package.

I, for one, am waiting until the 16th to get a clear answer, because what Steve didn't say and what C|NET "reports" are in no way a clear picture of the situation.

Agreed 100%. As long as there's no official word from Apple that the iApps are no longer downloadable, we just don't knoe.

JBracy
Jan 7, 2004, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by idkew
sorry, forgot to attach the pict.

please call the BBB and the Police. They are breaking the law!

Actually they are not. They do have the fine print which states the per unit price. If they did not tell you that you had the option of buying only one THEN they would be breaking the law.

Jason

idkew
Jan 7, 2004, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by JBracy
Actually they are not. They do have the fine print which states the per unit price. If they did not tell you that you had the option of buying only one THEN they would be breaking the law.

Jason

you sound like a politician. a minute ago you just said this:

If it's posted 3 for $9.00 usually you'll find in fine print underneath saying "or $4.00 ea".

If I remember correctly from my time in retail it's actually illegal to advertise something in multiples if it is the same price individually - unless the item is actually packaged in multiples.

but, lets drop this. it is way too far off topic now.

JBracy
Jan 7, 2004, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by idkew
you sound like a politician. a minute ago you just said this:



but, lets drop this. it is way too far off topic now. [/B]

Basically as long as the actual price is in the fine print anything is legal (almost).

But I agree it's way too off topic. It's also almost 2am - I need sleep.

toughboy
Jan 7, 2004, 12:48 AM
I cant believe it!!!

those iapps were one of the reasons for me to buy a mac, when I bought my 12"Pb.. and now, they dont give them for free?!?! oh god!

they dont "sell" iTunes, just because they are afraid that they will loose money from online music store. the rest of those nice apps, they dont care... oh god, Apple looses its image in my perception..

iPhoto was one of the worst application when it was version2.0, and they say they made it faster even if you have 10000s of pics, but what good is that, if I'm not gonna be able to use it..

no pals, sorry, but I'm not going to pay for something which was free to catch attention and made me buy a mac, and now for 50 bucks.. or even more in Europe...

toughboy
Jan 7, 2004, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by jocknerd
Lets see, I've already got iTunes 4.2. Don't have a DVD burner on my iBook. Don't need an update to iMovie. I'm using Final Cut Express and will pay the $99 to upgrade it. So that leaves me with GarageBand and iPhoto for $49. Don't have a need to make my own music. So Apple wants me to pay $49 to upgrade my iPhoto? No thanks Apple.

I'm still planning to buy my G5 this year Apple, but I'm starting to get a little hesitant. First, .mac became a subscription. Now, iLife. What's next year? Safari?

I could not agree more..

claps...

I WANT MY iPHOTO FREE!

me_94501
Jan 7, 2004, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by toughboy
I cant believe it!!!

those iapps were one of the reasons for me to buy a mac, when I bought my 12"Pb.. and now, they dont give them for free?!?! oh god!

they dont "sell" iTunes, just because they are afraid that they will loose money from online music store. the rest of those nice apps, they dont care... oh god, Apple looses its image in my perception..

iPhoto was one of the worst application when it was version2.0, and they say they made it faster even if you have 10000s of pics, but what good is that, if I'm not gonna be able to use it..

no pals, sorry, but I'm not going to pay for something which was free to catch attention and made me buy a mac, and now for 50 bucks.. or even more in Europe...
Remember, Apple made no official announcement over downloadable iApps, so it's really all just speculation at this point. And actually, iDVD was really never free.

gaijinjim
Jan 7, 2004, 01:20 AM
Honestly, I think that Apple is doing a disservice to itself by not making a clear distinction between what are "features of the OS" and what the suite of iApps actually are.

iPhoto, iMovie and iTunes are listed as apps to "Explore the Digital Lifestyle" on Apple's MacOS X overview page. As such one would think that these apps could be upgraded through Software Update for everyone. And, in my opinion, iDVD should be too for those that just recently bought macs or Panther.

(Sidebar: I personally didn't upgrade to Panther until just recently, partly because of the problems that it apparently had. 10.3 wasn't a polished or GM grade OS, but it seems like 10.3.2 is. Is Apple just trying to get too much out the door too fast?)

As far as the iApps are concerned, I would suggest just wait until the actual release of iLife '04 to see if they are available for upgrade. They did it last year they may do it again.

just my two cents...

Earendil
Jan 7, 2004, 02:01 AM
My apologize, I wrote two posts in a row, and I realize now that of course not everyone is going to relate my first post to my second one. my bad. none the less, you can't say that there aren't complainers on this board, and those are the people I'm talking to. I made a general statement after replying to your post, and I can see, now, how you might have taken that personally.

Originally posted by idkew
:confused:
go ahead and send apple a $250 check, as you believe this iL is worth it.

Now, go back and read my post, this is hardly worth replying to. what did I say I would do if Apple charged $250?


Also, you go very far when calling people idiots and whiners here. Whining is when you are saying "This sucks. I hate paying money."


I hope I have corrected myself here


The way you are stating things, if you don't like what Apple says, you are mentally handicapped and immature. A well thought out, intelligent arguement does not equal idiotic whining.


And I never said it did, on the contrary, I said shame on the whiners, kudos to the well thought out arguments of those that weren't happy with Apple's most recent news.


On the other hand, those who happily accept Apple tried and true practice of turning freebies into fee-ies, you may either be too docile and afraid of confrontation or you are a Zealot.


I'm not even sure where that one comes from...


They did it once with .Mac, just did it with iLife, what's next? iTunes updates costr for iPod'ers? Safari paid updates? 10.3.x paid updates? :confused:


I think you know that some of those will never happen. but I have a solution to all our problems, Apple should charge people for there new applications up front, like most companies, instead of letting the first few versions go free for a few years. that way no one can be disapointed.


Apple charged for iDVD with good reason- downloading several gigabytes of info it inconvienent or impossible for most people. Sell them a CD or DVD and they will be happy. iPhoto is not too large to download, ever for modem users, so that excuse goes out the window.


I'm not sure why I even state this, because it's been said so many times before in this thread. But, what the heck, I'll say it anyway.
It has NOT been confirmed that you will have to pay jack squat for iTunes, iPhoto, or iMovies. GarageBand is pickin awesome, and build around a $300 program, bets are it won't be free. and iDVD has never been free. all we know is that come the 16th, all 5 will be offered in a single package for $50.


One more question: When you are at the grocery store, and you see a sign that says 3 for $9.00, do you buy three? Do you realize that you can buy one for $3?


Ok, let's say I go to a store and see an Apple (har har) for $9. Now, I know that every other store around is going to charge me $9, or most likely, more. So I see this $9 Apple, and notice that along with it, I get a Banana, Orange, Kiwi, and Pare. Now, I have two options, I can
A: go to the clerk and complain that I don't want all 5 fruit, I hate the other fruit, I want the Apple for $1.80 knowing full well an Apple next door will cost $9 or more.
B: Realize I'm paying the same thing for an Apple here as I would at the next place, take the extra fruit home, and give them to the kids to have fun with. or the pet monkey.


As I stated before, the forced bundle is a way for Apple to make more revnue by not allowing consumers to purchse what is needed and necessary. Apple likes to dictate what we do and how we do it. Here is one more way for them to do that.


forced revenue would be to charge you $30 or even the software standard $50 for each application.


You say it is unfair to expect something for nothing. How is that different from expecting to pay for only what you want? After all, iPhoto runs independently of iDVD. One does not need the other to run. One just extends the usefulness of the other. Kinda sounds like Apple forcing you to upgrade your RAM if you buy a larger Hard Drive.

You know what I'd LOVE to see Apple do at this point? Offer each Application separate, and charge $50 for them. That way, they can recover their cost fully, and people will see the 5 app iLife for the $50 steal that it is.

Tyler
Earendil

autrefois
Jan 7, 2004, 02:39 AM
I've been trying unsuccessfully to find out in the archives whether or not SJ announced last year that iLife apps would still be available online to download for free individually, but I can't find any definitive proof (searched "iLife" and "iApps").

I did come across some interesting posts from the past...including one thread from January 9, 2001 (after that year's keynote apparently) about whether there would be another iApp.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1272

"iMovie - iDVD - iTunes - iPhoto - anything missing?"

Originally posted by dolstein
How about iMusic, a very user friendly digital audio recording and editing program? Turn your iMac into a home recording studio. I suppose there isn't that big a market for it -- I'm sure that more people would rather rip tracks from CDs than record their own music. Plus you'd still need additional hardware to get the music into the computer (the built-in mic isn't good enough). Still, I've always wondered why they called their MP3 program iTunes rather than the better-sounding (to me, at least) iMusic.

Even though the name was wrong, they weren't far off with the idea! And someone confirmed that they had a source with info pointing in that direction.

Also talk in other posts about an Apple messenger program, browser, firewire webcam, and so on, back before any of these existed. If you're weird like me, it might be interesting to see what people were guessing in older posts. :)

johnnyjibbs
Jan 7, 2004, 03:17 AM
This thread had turned into a debate about whether the iApps should be free upgrades or not.

I expect this new system (if free downloads are not providced in two weeks) will need some getting used to but by the time iLife '05 is released next January with just modest upgrades and no new app, people will be more willing to pay the $49/£39 because it will be expected. It's just the way things are.

What I read into this is that Apple has begun locking itself into a yearly update pattern for the iApps. iTunes is independent, will remain freeware, and the latest version will always be included with iLife. (iTunes makes iLife look even better value.) But don't expect new versions of the other iApps now until a year from now. Maybe, Apple is moving towards a subscription model in general, with perhaps the introduction of an optional once-a-year subscription fee that gets you Mac OS X upgrades, .Mac and iApp upgrades. This would ensure a constant revenuee from old customers for Apple, which fits nicely with the talk of Apple becoming a more software-oriented company. When you buy a new Mac you, in effect, get a free first year subscription (minus .Mac) to help you along (depends on when you buy obviously).

oingoboingo
Jan 7, 2004, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by dukemeiser

Please people, stop whining. Why should Apple spend $ and time on great software and then give it away? Doesn't sound like a very good business model to me.


Huh? Apple gives away iLife with any new Macintosh (or copy of OS X, for that matter), and the virtues of the iApps are extolled at length whenever you speak to a sales representative or read the Apple web site. 'Giving away' the iApps is definitely a good business model, because it's a compelling reason for many (especially at the consumer/home level) to go out and buy a Macintosh. Is Apple going to make their fortunes selling boxed copies of iLife '04 for $49 a pop (a whopping $29 to students), or by selling eMacs, iMacs, iBooks, PowerBooks and PowerMacs to people who see this high quality, fully integrated bundle of software included gratis with OS X as a strong reason for owning one in the first place?

It's the same reason Apple gives away iTunes, even to 'heathen' Windows users. Obviously iTunes wasn't free to develop. However, it tempts people to the iTunes Music Store, it tempts people to own an iPod, and it tempts people to want to own a Macintosh and experience the rest of Apple's quality software.

Giving away quality software sounds like a great business model to me.

chiptiff
Jan 7, 2004, 04:23 AM
Perhaps we all missed this announcement (http://homepage.mac.com/chipadams/apple_psa.jpg) from Apple...

the future
Jan 7, 2004, 05:09 AM
With all the pointless complaining in this thread, the most baffling example must be the poster who said he maybe won't buy a G5 this year as he had planned because iLife costs 49 bucks now. That's just so strange.

mikeh123
Jan 7, 2004, 05:32 AM
Everyone just needs to sit back and calm down.

If you buy a new mac you get these apps bundled for free.

Lets face it these are good applications so why should they be free for everyone forever.
The OS isn't free, keynote, MS office or most other applications are chargeable.
They have 3 very good apps here so a $49 charge is nothing in comparison to other software costs.

If you buy a new machine it comes free, if you want the latest version we have to pay.
Not ideal but I don't see a problem with that. As long as support continues for the older versions we already have then no problem. It's basic business sense.

iMan
Jan 7, 2004, 07:40 AM
Hey guys!! What are you all complaining about???
You all obviously run fine versions of all existing iApps and now you want even more for free? How long - for life?

All of the upgrades to any of the iApps is alone worth the price of $49 - in my opinion. I understand that anything that is free is even better but we ain't talking about large sums here. If you compare the price to anything out there of any quality it is very reasonable. Considering the quality of these Apps, getting the whole suite for $49 is a bargain. I just bought my mac less than a month ago and I definetely will cash out for this!

I appreciate the fact that Apple did a lot of work on all these apps, including benefits before only available in pro-apps. At least I rather pay a small price for such real performance upgrades than only getting cosmetic upgrades.

Besides GarageBand alone is going to sell a lot(!) of Mac's.

iMan
Jan 7, 2004, 07:50 AM
Is Apple going to make their fortunes selling boxed copies of iLife '04 for $49 a pop (a whopping $29 to students), or by selling eMacs, iMacs, iBooks, PowerBooks and PowerMacs to people who see this high quality, fully integrated bundle of software included gratis with OS X as a strong reason for owning one in the first place? [/B]

Apple is still "giving" away the iApps with any new Mac - as a bonus. A great business model as you say.
Where does it in there lay that you are entitled to free upgrades indefinitely of everything aboard?
Besides; the $49 upgrade is not whopping or anything at all. It is more than reasonable. You might try the same with the MS suite of programs (or anything else for that matter) and my guess are that you'll use the iApps more than any other software you have (aside from mail and browser probably).

Great value Apple!!

iMan
Jan 7, 2004, 07:53 AM
iApps included in future OS upgrades?

What is more interesting is wether Apple will continue to include the iApps in new Mac OS upgrades... In that case, the package begins to get real value... if not though...

oingoboingo
Jan 7, 2004, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by iMan
Hey guys!! What are you all complaining about???
You all obviously run fine versions of all existing iApps and now you want even more for free? How long - for life?

..snip...

Besides GarageBand alone is going to sell a lot(!) of Mac's.

It would be a stretch to say that iPhoto 2 ran fine. Even on my 1.6GHz G5 it was excruciatingly slow, and I only have a photo collection of approximately 1000 images. Granted though, I don't think people should be expecting brand new apps like Garage Band to magically appear in their Software Update for free. But I do think it is reasonable to expect that iApps which you already own (since they are part of the OS which was shipped with your Mac!) should continue to be updated for free, as long as your operating system is the currently shipping and supported OS (ie: Panther).

I don't see iPhoto or iMovie to be any different to Safari, Mail or Quicktime. They are all integrated and shipping components of OS X. As long as the particular version of OS X that a user is running (Panther 10.2.3 in my case) is being actively supported and updated via Software Update, then I would expect that policy to apply across the board. Would you think it was fair if we needed to start paying for Safari or Mail updates within Panther? What about security fixes and bug patches?

Like I said, I totally support Apple in charging money for all-new apps like Garage Band. But I think it is an insidious form of multi-dipping to expect people to pay for their OS X updates (Panther in this case), and then expect only a few months later for users to stop receiving free updates to major components of their still current operating system, and fork out more cash for updates. Remember that Windows users receive quite major Service Packs for free if they are still running a supported version of Windows.

What I haven't seen anybody discuss on this thread is what the $49 price tag is actually going to result in...a lot of Mac users are just going to get the new iApps through peer-to-peer filesharing software, Bit Torrent, or someone is going to buy iLife 04 and then lend it to 15 of their friends. This doesn't include the 'time honoured' trick of buying the software, burning copies of it for yourself, and then 24 hours later recouping 90% of the software cost on eBay.

In actuality this whole discussion thread is over a moot point. Those who will pay will pay, and those who won't, won't. And everyone will have iLife '04.

And I do agree that Garage Band will sell a lot of Macs.

oingoboingo
Jan 7, 2004, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by iMan
Apple is still "giving" away the iApps with any new Mac - as a bonus. A great business model as you say.
Where does it in there lay that you are entitled to free upgrades indefinitely of everything aboard?
Besides; the $49 upgrade is not whopping or anything at all. It is more than reasonable. You might try the same with the MS suite of programs (or anything else for that matter) and my guess are that you'll use the iApps more than any other software you have (aside from mail and browser probably).

Great value Apple!!

iMan, my earlier response did cover some of your comments above. I don't expect that we should expect 'lifetime' upgrades of the iApps, just like we don't expect 'lifetime' upgrades of OS X. But I *do* think it is reasonable to expect updates for the life of the current operating system. So while Panther is still being actively updated, so should all components of it. Why is iPhoto or iMovie any different to Mail? Or Safari? Or Xcode? We all reasonably expect updates to those programs to be freely available to currently supported OS X users, because they are part of the OS. If Apple placed an 'i' in front of Safari, would you be happy to accept that you no longer received Safari updates for free during the supported lifetime of your Panther install?

I guess this argument comes down to whether people see the iApps as being part of OS X or not. They are on the OS X install CDs. They are preinstalled, and all visible in the Dock when you first boot your new Mac. They are referred to on the OS X pages at Apple's website. I would argue they are part of OS X (again, like Safari, Mail, Quicktime, Disk Utility, Calculator, Terminal, etc etc).

And on the MS suite of programs, the analogy would be buying Windows XP, only to find that the free Service Packs no longer included updates for Internet Explorer, and that you needed to pay $49 for IE 7. That's not going to happen. That's what I feel has happened with iLife 04.

flyfish29
Jan 7, 2004, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by CaptainScarlet
Well the mini iPods are neat...And iLife package is OK...But now what...

Nothing....

I think Apple went overboard with those mini's....Why does everything apple does cost so much damm money!?!?!?!

They could have made a less expensive product that Wal Mart could sell....


Apple charges so much for two reasons. They make quality stuff (when compared to M$, PC stuff, and the pieces of crap Walmart sells cheap) and they provide lots of extras on their comptuers as far as software. Yes, I know Apple is being forced to charge for upgrades to some of their software titles but think about the fact that all those people for the last three years of isoftware development that were working on these products were giving it away for free. If you think of other software products most everyone charges for upgrades to products. Appleworks comes on consumer macs but they have always charged for upgrades. Of course we know M$ charges for all upgrades. Think about the extras that Apple has provided over the years. Now OSx provides the ability to not only read but to SAVE as PDF in most every application. You used to have to pay for PDF saving feature software. There are many others, but my point is they make good and some even great applications including the iLife suite. These apps are not for all users and they have never said they were. That is why there are over 10,000 other programs available. If they don't work for you go somplace else...where they will of course charge you for the very first version of their software like all other companies. Lets be glad we have had these iApps free for so long. I made a DVD for my inlaws the other day and used all the iApps which turned out terrific...all of which came on my Mac when I purchased it. Yes, if I want the most current stuff I will have to upgrade, but most Apple mainstream users (not geeks like us) will be perfectly happy with the copy that comes on their macs. lets get the word out that for most people these iLife apps are great for what they want it to do.
'Keep up the great work.

iMan
Jan 7, 2004, 08:38 AM
[B]Would you think it was fair if we needed to start paying for Safari or Mail updates within Panther? What about security fixes and bug patches?
---
I don't expect that we should expect 'lifetime' upgrades of the iApps, just like we don't expect 'lifetime' upgrades of OS X.


This way of thinking would mean that Apple could not release any apps and get paid for it if they not at the same time released a new OS. I am curious to see if all apps are still going in the next OS box (or even Panther from now on).
Also the fixes and patches will of course run for free still - remember this is not a patch, but a real upgrade to the suite. Similar I think you will see that Mail and Safari will only do a major upgrade together with the OS - hence you are "paying" for it that way.

I agree however that these will be on the net quite soon anyway - but I don't think Apple cares. The price for these is not even close to cover the development anyway I guess, so it is more symbolic for the physical package - as iDVD and GarageBand would far to big for downloads (the whole suite requires 4.3 GB). This way Apple probably avoid the apps from not being of same generation - which might possibly cause some compatibility problems... and I like to see those hacking one app for upgrading it and hence complaining about the whole system crashing at Apple discussions :D

blybug
Jan 7, 2004, 08:39 AM
Imagine for just a moment that the iLife package and all the previously individual components never existed, for free or for pay. Now just think if at yesterday's keynote after the Microsoft Office demo Steve welcomed a developer from Adobe or some other company up on stage who went through a demo of a new never-before-seen software package they were releasing that:

(1) Allows you to purchase, rip, organize and play all your music on your computer, transfer to your portable player, and stream across your network
(2) Imports your digital photos from virtually any camera, organize and edit your pictures, share them on your network or on the web, order prints and other merchandise
(3) Imports digital video, edit it, and fabulous effects and titles, export to a multitude of formats, video tape, or DVD
(4) Create and burn professional looking DVDs of all your video footage
(5) Create your own music with a combination of dozens of electronic instruments, professional loops, and live recording

Furthermore, all of these applications interact with each other, allowing one-click integration and transfer of media and creations from one component to the other. And it will only be available for the Macintosh platform.

Price: $49

The crowd would have gone wild. And who here would not want to buy this package, whether they would necessarily use all the features or not? This scenario is really no different than reality except for one small difference...this package does already exist and you do already have it on your computer. Now you are simply being asked to pay $49 to have the latest version (which, by the way, many of us have paid several times already just to have iDVD updates).

Don't like the price? Stick with the versions you have. They still work, maybe not as smoothly as you'd like or with all the fancy new bells and whistles, but hey, it was free, right? Think of it like many shareware programs...there's a "lite" version that is often free or discounted, and a full-featured version that you have to shell out some cash for.

Having said all that, I'd still like to see Apple offer at least a discount (and maybe even free downloads of iPhoto and iMovie) to .mac members. That would give more perceived value to .mac, which also has been debated into the ground on this forum, and allow Apple to show some goodwill towards its most loyal supporters.

For the record, I've already ordered my iLife '04. I already use the 4 core apps regularly, and look forward to (finally) being able to use iPhoto the way it was meant to be used. Might play around a little with GarageBand, but honestly don't quite understand why this is being bundled with iLife.

blybug
Jan 7, 2004, 08:54 AM
I woudn't count on downloads becoming available on the 16th or otherwise. I remember well that just before iLife was first released as a bundle, the rumor boards were full of these exact discussions because it had slipped that Apple was going to charge $xx for the package as a bundle, with no more free downloads.

At the time of the iLife presentation last year Steve gave the $49 price then quickly said that the new versions of iTunes, iPhoto, and iMovie would still be available for free download, which they were a short time later (I think the same day the iLife discs were released, which many may remember was also delayed past the promised original release date because of problems with iMovie). It came out again on the boards several days later that continuing the downloads was not the original plan, and was a last minute decision (like maybe even the morning of the Stevenote) in response to a flood of complaints that Apple had received.

I think we've already gotten a bonus free year. This decision was supposed to have gone into effect with iLife v1. I believe that if they were going to continue with the downloads, Steve would have mentioned it in the keynote (like he did last year). The fact that he didn't say it I think means it isn't going to happen. They already knew people were going to be unhappy and are probably geared up for all the complaints again...but I doubt very much they will give in this time.

1macker1
Jan 7, 2004, 11:01 AM
I just have one question. If they say iDVD is too large to put up as a free download, so that's why they charge for it, and put it on the iLife disk. How do they plan on selling software through software update, which they said they will start doing. Sounds kind of fishy to me.

iMan
Jan 7, 2004, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by 1macker1
I just have one question. If they say iDVD is too large to put up as a free download, so that's why they charge for it, and put it on the iLife disk. How do they plan on selling software through software update, which they said they will start doing. Sounds kind of fishy to me.

1. new technology might make it possible to easily download large amounts of data on near future.

2. if you charge for it, you won't have the same massive traffic on your servers as if it were free

3. if they start selling software through software update it does not mean they have to sell everything through there - and an update does not necessarily mean donwloading the whole app; xtras and all.

++

Also, make a note that this is also still a rumour - the same kind that spawned the $100 iPod ;)

JBracy
Jan 7, 2004, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by 1macker1
I just have one question. If they say iDVD is too large to put up as a free download, so that's why they charge for it, and put it on the iLife disk. How do they plan on selling software through software update, which they said they will start doing. Sounds kind of fishy to me.

Apple have actually never said that they would do this. Rumors are not news. True there is evidence that it will happen http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/12/20031220204205.shtml but it has not been confirmed or announced by Apple. There's also the possibility that they will only offer for download items up to a certain size. I have a 3MB Cable connection and downloading GB's of data still takes a VERY LONG time.

1macker1
Jan 7, 2004, 11:16 AM
If it's free, people would be willing to endure the long download times, i'm pretty sure of that. As far apple selling sw via sw update, yeah it's only a rumor, we'll have to wait and see.

iMan
Jan 7, 2004, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by 1macker1
If it's free, people would be willing to endure the long download times, i'm pretty sure of that.

well, imagine the donwload time from a server trying to cope with 1 mill users getting 4.3 GB of free data each... I think you'd save time and money buying the $49 pack if you're on a 56k modem line :D

JJTiger1
Jan 7, 2004, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by iMan
well, imagine the donwload time from a server trying to cope with 1 mill users getting 4.3 GB of free data each... I think you'd save time and money buying the $49 pack if you're on a 56k modem line :D

I bought the first iLife for just that reason.

iDVD came on a DVD in that version of iLife, and I could not install it on my non-DVD G4.

Somehow (maybe original OS 10.1 installer/restore CD's) my G4 has iDVD 2.1 in the Panther Applications folder, but it won't launch because I don't have a DVD burner.

I'm hoping that the new iLife includes iDVD installer on CD, not on DVD.

How else could I install the newest iDVD?

How else can I build an iDVD on my non-DVD machine, to transfer the file to a DVD machine?

If the newest iDVD installer is on DVD discs: NO SALE.

We shall see next week Friday, won't we?
=-=
JJ

1macker1
Jan 7, 2004, 11:50 AM
Surely a company that just annoucned new servers wouldn't have a problem with that :)
Originally posted by iMan
well, imagine the donwload time from a server trying to cope with 1 mill users getting 4.3 GB of free data each... I think you'd save time and money buying the $49 pack if you're on a 56k modem line :D

iMan
Jan 7, 2004, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by JJTiger1
iDVD came on a DVD in that version of iLife, and I could not install it on my non-DVD G4.


I think the market for a DVD app for non DVD machines would be rather slim - eventhough I see your point of transferring the project - so I would not count on Apple making a priority of this over the ease of using a DVD disc for the amount of data. The whole cabooz requires 4.3 GB on your harddrive and specifically says DVD is required for iDVD and GB.

iMan
Jan 7, 2004, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by 1macker1
Surely a company that just annoucned new servers wouldn't have a problem with that :)

I would bet the bandwith into the server had something to do with this also... what if Apple invented instant superfast fiberoptic internet ;)

GregA
Jan 7, 2004, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by flyfish29
Apple charges so much for two reasons. They make quality stuff ... and they provide lots of extras on their comptuers as far as software. Yes, I know Apple is being forced to charge for upgrades to some of their software titles but think about the fact that all those people for the last three years of isoftware development that were working on these products were giving it away for free.There's a bit of a contradiction there (I think it's half the reason everyone is disagreeing here.

So... you're saying
1. Apple charges more because they provide free extras, and
2. they can't afford to make nothing on the extras.
Well, they were not making nothing if they charged more for them.

On another note:
I don't care about $49us. But it is quite different to consider $49 per year though (+ $129 per year for OSX). It's almost a sneaky subscription model (with the exception that you can keep using the original version of software if you want).

I know I said it before, but I think Apple is playing with a new way of making money. I'm all for it if Apple is shuffling where it makes money (eg. small profit on the hardware big profit on software?), but it would be a shame to make Mac's even more of a premium product - when the iApps were once what made the Mac worth the extra $$ (for some people).

1macker1
Jan 7, 2004, 03:33 PM
What the heck happened to the updated Appleworks? and why does apple's site say "it's like Microsoft office for the rest of us" and it has a pic of the new 04 iLife. WTF do movies, dvds, and music have to do with word processing and spreadsheets? Damn apple really dropped the ball this time.

Dahl
Jan 7, 2004, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by 1macker1
What the heck happened to the updated Appleworks?
I hear ya!
I might need Word soon, but I don't really want to buy it, if I can get Apple Works instead. But I don't want to buy Apple Works, when it looks like they are dropping the app.

johnnyjibbs
Jan 7, 2004, 03:44 PM
If I were you, I'd just get AppleWorks or Office, or one of the alternatives (e.g. openoffice or thinkfree office) because I don't think Apple is going to come out with one.

It seems as though Apple is backing Microsoft Office fully. The reference to iLife being "the Microsoft Office for the rest of your life" has a double meaning. It is saying that MS Office takes care of your work-related life, while iLife takes care of the rest of your life (i.e. fun), as someone else stated earlier. It is also a subtle retreat by Apple - a reference to shut up all the rumours about an Apple competitor to MS Office.

Apple has spoken: they are backing MS Office, not wanting to compete with it.

Unfortunately, the statement on Apple's front page can be (and already has been) misinterpreted as iLife being updated for the rest of your life (as in time), sort of like Office is! Hope that makes sense?!

autrefois
Jan 7, 2004, 03:58 PM
I agree with the rest of your post, but will just comment on this part.

Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
Unfortunately, the statement on Apple's front page can be (and already has been) misinterpreted as iLife being updated for the rest of your life (as in time), sort of like Office is! Hope that makes sense?!

That's hilarious!! :D It took me a second to see what you meant, but yeah if you dislike Office (like I do!) then it sounds like buying iLife would be torture!!

It's like (being stuck with) Microsoft Office for the rest of your life

johnnyjibbs
Jan 7, 2004, 04:04 PM
You have to love Office really.. :D ;)

ipoddin
Jan 7, 2004, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by blybug
Imagine for just a moment that the iLife package and all the previously individual components never existed, for free or for pay. Now just think if at yesterday's keynote after the Microsoft Office demo Steve welcomed a developer from Adobe or some other company up on stage who went through a demo of a new never-before-seen software package they were releasing that:

(1) Allows you to purchase, rip, organize and play all your music on your computer, transfer to your portable player, and stream across your network
(2) Imports your digital photos from virtually any camera, organize and edit your pictures, share them on your network or on the web, order prints and other merchandise
(3) Imports digital video, edit it, and fabulous effects and titles, export to a multitude of formats, video tape, or DVD
(4) Create and burn professional looking DVDs of all your video footage
(5) Create your own music with a combination of dozens of electronic instruments, professional loops, and live recording

Furthermore, all of these applications interact with each other, allowing one-click integration and transfer of media and creations from one component to the other. And it will only be available for the Macintosh platform.

Price: $49

The crowd would have gone wild. And who here would not want to buy this package, whether they would necessarily use all the features or not? This scenario is really no different than reality except for one small difference...this package does already exist and you do already have it on your computer. Now you are simply being asked to pay $49 to have the latest version (which, by the way, many of us have paid several times already just to have iDVD updates).

Don't like the price? Stick with the versions you have. They still work, maybe not as smoothly as you'd like or with all the fancy new bells and whistles, but hey, it was free, right? Think of it like many shareware programs...there's a "lite" version that is often free or discounted, and a full-featured version that you have to shell out some cash for.

Having said all that, I'd still like to see Apple offer at least a discount (and maybe even free downloads of iPhoto and iMovie) to .mac members. That would give more perceived value to .mac, which also has been debated into the ground on this forum, and allow Apple to show some goodwill towards its most loyal supporters.

For the record, I've already ordered my iLife '04. I already use the 4 core apps regularly, and look forward to (finally) being able to use iPhoto the way it was meant to be used. Might play around a little with GarageBand, but honestly don't quite understand why this is being bundled with iLife.

Except when that company released v2.0 next year, they wouldn't charge full price to those who bought v1.0 this year. I hear ya on the .Mac discount as well. Nothing new for .Mac at the keynote either...

Apple is like a drug dealer. "Here ya go, first one's free. Like it, eh? Now you gotta pay!" They get you hooked in to using their free software so you can't imagine life without it..and then drop the freebie like a bomb. And of course, I'm addicted and will pay for my next high with iLife 04.

~Shard~
Jan 7, 2004, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by ipoddin

Apple is like a drug dealer. "Here ya go, first one's free. Like it, eh? Now you gotta pay!" They get you hooked in to using their free software so you can't imagine life without it..and then drop the freebie like a bomb. And of course, I'm addicted and will pay for my next high with iLife 04.

Number one, this is Marketing - get used to it. Number two, it's 49 freakin' bucks. Too rich for your blood? Work an extra few hours at your job.

iMan
Jan 7, 2004, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by ipoddin
Apple is like a drug dealer. "Here ya go, first one's free. Like it, eh? Now you gotta pay!"


he heh... if Apple actually got you that addicted I guess they did something really good with the stuff they fed you ;)

ipoddin
Jan 7, 2004, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by ~Shard~
Number one, this is Marketing - get used to it. Number two, it's 49 freakin' bucks. Too rich for your blood? Work an extra few hours at your job.

It's not really marketing. Which companies offer free versions of their software only to then charge you for it down the line? Most offer demo's first, and then charge you for it - that is marketing.

And if you read my post again, you'd see I already PLAN to buy it. My beef is the fact that those of us who spent $49 last year for iLife have to pay $49 for upgrades when most software companies offer discount for previous owners.

flyfish29
Jan 7, 2004, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by idkew
no one is "bitching" that they have to pay for iDVD or Garageband. People are "bitching" because they have to pay for programs they will never use. If Apple wants to charge $50 for 5 programs, where is this different than charging $40 for 4, $30 for 3, $20 for 2 and $10 for 1?

I see no difference, except that Apple wants the $50, knowing that a LARGE majority of Mac users do not have the ability or desire to use all 5 components. You say we are cheap, I say Apple is being greedy by forcing us to buy software we do not use nor want.

you show me a real software company that charges $10 for a program? this method of marketing the programs is beneficial to most as it makes the programs all $50. If Apple charged $25 per program (which they would have to do if they were sold separately) there would be many people paying $100 for all five programs which would suck. If you only used two programs you would probalby have to pay at least $40 if they bundled them separately...so just shell out the $50, help Apple succeed, and keep this train rolling!.

Another thing to remember, Music Store has not been set up to make much of a profit, iTunes is still FREE to everyone that wants it, so the only real way they make much money off the whole music thing is to sell iPods and hopefully Macs to go with, but with iTunes for PC that makes it more difficult. Hopefully Music Store will be profitable soon with so many aol, PC, and companies buying music.

flyfish29
Jan 7, 2004, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by idkew
:confused:
They did it once with .Mac, just did it with iLife, what's next? iTunes updates costr for iPod'ers? Safari paid updates? 10.3.x paid updates? :confused:

As I stated before, the forced bundle is a way for Apple to make more revnue by not allowing consumers to purchse what is needed and necessary. Apple likes to dictate what we do and how we do it. Here is one more way for them to do that.
.

This forced bundle allows everyone to pay a relatively low price for up to five appications. Bundling alows no one to pay more than 50...where most that used just two apps would pay more than 50 total.

When the online .Mac deal started and was free it didin't provide many benefits and really didn't work all that terrific. Give Apple credit to make it right, but of course it took money and many hours of work to make it right...so they had to charge. This software boom is what is KEEPING APPLE AFLOAT. WERE IT NOT FOR ITUNES, MUSIC STORE, IDVD, IPHOTO, ETC. APPLE WHOULD BE IN THE $#$%$ HOLE IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.

syclone
Jan 7, 2004, 07:44 PM
you know, considering how piss slow iPhoto is on my new computer, I think the price of entry is worth it just for that. I also hate downloading things and would love to have all the software on one nice DVD since never back up. (my 2 month old PB G4 15" totally died for no reason, yay! At least they'll fix those damn white spots along with it) I would probably pay $50 for GarageBand too.

Here's the thing. I really like what Apple is doing here from a business standpoint. They're giving me a bunch of programs, that I have already tried (except GarageBand) and know to be great software that could use a few tweaks, so I'm more willing to pay to purchase it, and think I'm getting a great deal, because I'd pay $50 for each one, and now I get all four (iTunes doesn't count its still free) I think its a good idea and a great way for Apple to make money. I just wish that if you already had OSX that it was only $70 for an upgrade. And hey, if you don't like it, then shut up and download them on BitTorrent. Its not like anyone is going to be putting out anything professional with any of these apps anyway.

SlimPickens
Jan 7, 2004, 08:55 PM
One of the things that's really bugged me about the iPhoto deal is that it's been advertised as a feature within Panther. Now it looks like the mention of iPhoto as one of the "Top New Features" on the website has dissappeared...

Pretty sly... or I guess deceptive...

~Shard~
Jan 7, 2004, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by ipoddin
It's not really marketing. Which companies offer free versions of their software only to then charge you for it down the line? Most offer demo's first, and then charge you for it - that is marketing.

I wasn't referring specifically to products, but also services. In my workplace, I see it all the time. Certain features, services, etc. are initially offered to customers for free, and then upgrades/enhanced functionality end up costing more in the future. Also, many websites did this during the tech boom, are currently doing it, and planning on doing it in the future - offer free services, then charge for them later. I can think of mulitple examples of this, from e-cards, to e-mail, and on and on...

Originally posted by ipoddin
And if you read my post again, you'd see I already PLAN to buy it. My beef is the fact that those of us who spent $49 last year for iLife have to pay $49 for upgrades when most software companies offer discount for previous owners.

And I wasn't discounting that at all - I appreciate that, and agree that a discount in this situation would be appropriate - sorry for any confusion over that. :cool:

P.S. Oh, and if you wanted another example, Apple did it with .Mac already as well - initially free, then make the users pay!

Flowbee
Jan 7, 2004, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by ipoddin
Apple is like a drug dealer. "Here ya go, first one's free. Like it, eh? Now you gotta pay!" They get you hooked in to using their free software so you can't imagine life without it..and then drop the freebie like a bomb. And of course, I'm addicted and will pay for my next high with iLife 04.

I just hope you don't rob a liquor store to come up with all 49 of those dollars.

Anders Agerskov
Jan 8, 2004, 12:05 AM
I bought my powermac less than two years ago. If you count the operating system that came with it, I have bought a total of three OS X versions, which makes it more than one per year. Microsoft has never done this. Ever.

I also bought Quicktime Pro, just to find out two months later that my new OS version didn't allow for it to run, so - you guess right - ultimately had to shelve out money for a Quicktime update.

Now, when I bought Panther (in advance) I thought it would get a patch for iPhoto, but no way. I called the Apple help line and a friendly support staff said, I could look forward to getting the iApps when they got released. Yeah, right.

This does not jive with the notion of CORPORATE SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY. As some of you may know, there is a big push in companies to safeguard their reputation (and stock value). Ethics and corporate responsibility have become key. However, this does not seem to be the case with Apple.

If you add how Apple treated Karelia (creator of Watson), cut off support for external CD/DVD burners, etc. you will understand that Apple is close to abusing a monopoly situation. I once studied a bit of competition law in Europe, and I would say that Apple with its current market share could be close to violating EU competition law. EU fines are in the percentage range of overall sales. I don't know how the Sherman act is applied in the US.

I would urge Apple to come clean with regard to what they sell with their computers. Let the customer know. It is not a question of whether iLife's price is too high or OK. It is about not being transparent. Also, stop the squeezing of other software and hardware suppliers.

If the rule of law and core ethics are not upheld, then things will certainly go wrong in wonderland.

toughboy
Jan 8, 2004, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by rog
Looks like it's carracho and Limewire time for many.

I couldn't agree more... its limewire time..

and to the friend who talks about a decent mpeg2 prog for PC..

I am a PC user for more than 7-8 years, and I didnt pay for any PC product except the win95 I bought bundled with my first PC!!

But I paid for .mac and jaguar just because they seemed worthy.. but paying 50 USD (probably more in Europe) for just iPhoto (I wont even install the other ones) is not even close to worthiness...

its limewire time..

johnnyjibbs
Jan 8, 2004, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by Anders Agerskov
I bought my powermac less than two years ago. If you count the operating system that came with it, I have bought a total of three OS X versions, which makes it more than one per year. Microsoft has never done this. Ever.
You didn't have to buy any of the OS updates. OK, so you really need Jaguar, but the new iLife 04 suite works fine without the need for Panther.

Microsoft may never have done this, but what was the point of upgrading to Me or 2000 if you had Windows 98? Windows XP came out over 2 years ago. Since then, there has been one bug fix "sevice pack" and Windows users can look forward to service pack 2 this summer, 2 years after the previous one. Meanwhile, all the existing bugs and security problems still remain.

Personally I'm glad Apple chooses to update our OS and make improvements. Those who want to have them can buy them, otherwise you can stick with what you have. iPhoto, for example, is a great program as it is already.

(*BTW I use both Mac OS X Panther and Windows XP reguarly so I'm not unfairly dissing Microsoft)

sketchy
Jan 8, 2004, 03:05 PM
I think it is just sad that people are going to steal a 50 dollar program. It is like people who hack through shareware, rather then supporting the developer who worte the application.

"I am a PC user for more than 7-8 years, and I didnt pay for any PC product except the win95 I bought bundled with my first PC!!"

Am I supposed to be proud of you for that?

Apple is charging for the software because it is new, it is improved, and they are paying people to make it work on older computers. Would you be happier if Apple made the software only work on new computers, but it was still free?

IE: only computers purchased after the keynote can run the software?

I really find it hard to believe that so much of the Mac community is angry at Apple for making them pay for new software. Especially since Apple has historically done this.

They freely upgrade application until a new version comes out. -- they fix the patches, offer minor enhancments, and adapt for new OS's. They charge when enough developemnt has been done to warrent a new version. 7.5 (pay), 7.5.1, 7.5.2, 7.5.3, 7.5.5 (all free), 7.6 - pay. Etc.

And it's not like your old ones will stop working when the new ones are released.

I remember when Mac users would buy almost anything apple made to help with the bottom line.

And it is not deceptive if Apple touts a technology as part of an operating system - if it was true when they released it. they are alloud to change their business plan. If they MADE people pay to continue to use their Apps, then they would have a problem.

if you think it is toooooo much, quit yer whining and don't buy them, use what you already have. If you think 50 is toooooooo much for a single application (iPhoto) then go buy another photo application and do not complain when it does not work like iPhoto.

sheesh

Dave

iMan
Jan 8, 2004, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by sketchy
if you think it is toooooo much, quit yer whining and don't buy them, use what you already have. If you think 50 is toooooooo much for a single application (iPhoto) then go buy another photo application and do not complain when it does not work like iPhoto.


agree completely. What is 50 bucks anyway? It is hardly enough to cover the packaging, distribution and something for the retailer... Actually i don't think Apple is bothering too much if people run around copying either. I wonder if they are not just covering their ass with this - might be that they want the whole suite to be upgraded at any given time to ensure integration is intact; i.e. if you upgrade only one app you might experience trouble somehow... (I know they'd get their asses blown if that would happen... :)

Anyway - if they stay with the usual strategy everything will even be included in next major OS (or maybe if one buys Panther after jan16?) - so people could just wait for that and get it all then...

jbeetz
Jan 8, 2004, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
[snip]
I, for one, am waiting until the 16th to get a clear answer, because what Steve didn't say and what C|NET "reports" are in no way a clear picture of the situation.

Interesting... I'm building an order for a 1.8G dualie at CDW and the included software no longer lists itunes, iphoto, or imovie. The account exec checked several other mac products and they aren't there either--it looks like they may not be included on new CPUs anymore?? :confused:

Rower_CPU
Jan 8, 2004, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by jbeetz
Interesting... I'm building an order for a 1.8G dualie at CDW and the included software no longer lists itunes, iphoto, or imovie. The account exec checked several other mac products and they aren't there either--it looks like they may not be included on new CPUs anymore?? :confused:

Actually, Apple has released a definitive statement that iTunes will be the only freely downloadable iApp now.

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/jan/06ilife.html

Pricing & Availability
iLife ‘04 will be available on January 16 for a suggested retail price of $49 (US) through the Apple Store® (www.apple.com), Apple’s retail stores and Apple Authorized Resellers. The iLife ‘04 applications will also be included with all new Macs. An iLife Up-To-Date upgrade package is available to all customers who purchase a new Mac on or after January 6 that does not include iLife ‘04. The iLife Up-To-Date package is available for a shipping and handling fee of $19.95 (US). iTunes version 4.2 is currently available as a free download atwww.apple.com.

iLife '04 is supposed to be included with new purchases. I'd make sure of that before buying from CDW.

jbeetz
Jan 8, 2004, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
iLife '04 is supposed to be included with new purchases. I'd make sure of that before buying from CDW.

Sounds like a reason to hold off on pushing the "approve transaction" button for at least several days if not until the end of the month. Or not... :eek:

Rower_CPU
Jan 8, 2004, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by jbeetz
Sounds like a reason to hold off on pushing the "approve transaction" button for at least several days if not until the end of the month. Or not... :eek:

There's also the up-to-date program, which gets you the update for $20 if you bought your machine after the 6th and it came with the older versions.

I'm not sure if there's a clear answer yet as to when it will be bundled. Maybe not until the 16th.

~Shard~
Jan 8, 2004, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by toughboy
I couldn't agree more... its limewire time..

I am a PC user for more than 7-8 years, and I didnt pay for any PC product except the win95 I bought bundled with my first PC!!

its limewire time..

You're going on the Net to download a $50 package - a package you don't even think is worth $50. Wow, that's pathetic. So instead of supporting Apple you want to support warez? Sounds like a devoted Apple user to me. :rolleyes:

And you never bought software for your PC? I don't understand, is this supposed to make you cool? Are you proud of this? "Wow, look at me, I can steal! Give me an award!" :rolleyes:

That is really sad and pathetic. By doing this you are stating that all of Apple's development time, all the improvements, the addition of a completely new app, and everything else with the new iLife suite isn't worth s#$t to you. Some people have no concept of quality, no concept of a company's time and effort and costs, and want everything for free. Simply pathetic.

Dahl
Jan 8, 2004, 08:32 PM
Agree.
That's pathetic.

Dahl
Jan 10, 2004, 02:23 AM
btw. What happened to iPhoto 3 ?
Is it Apple wants all the iApps to be v.4 as in 2004 ?

JJTiger1
Jan 10, 2004, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by Dahl
btw. What happened to iPhoto 3 ?
Is it Apple wants all the iApps to be v.4 as in 2004 ?

YES !!! You are correct. Get over it. It's just a marketing ploy.
=-=
JJ

movabi
Jan 10, 2004, 02:41 PM
Something's wrong in wonderland?... It is not a question of whether iLife's price is too high or OK. It is about not being transparent. Also, stop the squeezing of other software and hardware suppliers.


I couldn't have put it better. amen.

iJon
Jan 10, 2004, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by toughboy
But I paid for .mac and jaguar just because they seemed worthy
iphoto doesnt seem worthy? if its not worthy why are you doing out of your way posting on how ripped off you feel and you have to go out of your way to steal it. if its not pay worthy then why dont you use the free photo app that is a 70 dollar value that came with .mac?

iJon

JBracy
Jan 10, 2004, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by Anders Agerskov
… Now, when I bought Panther (in advance) I thought it would get a patch for iPhoto, but no way. I called the Apple help line and a friendly support staff said, I could look forward to getting the iApps when they got released. Yeah, right.

If you add how Apple treated Karelia (creator of Watson), cut off support for external CD/DVD burners, etc. you will understand that Apple is close to abusing a monopoly situation.

… Also, stop the squeezing of other software and hardware suppliers.

1) Until now iPhoto has been free. Why would you need a patch to make it work with Panther when the current version is included with the Panther CD?

2) Watson is still used and developed. I can just about guarantee that Apple was working on Sherlock 3 before Watson was released. They might look similar, but the underlying technology and functionality are different.

3) How is only supporting built in SuperDrives abusing monopoly position? If anything it's exactly the opposite. If iDVD supported external 3rd party burners how would other developers convince hardware manufacturers to bundle their software? If Apple didn't have iDVD then people would complain that you had to buy 3rd party software to use the drives. As it is people already complain that the built in CD burning functionality of the finder is not good enough. If it was better then Roxio and others would not have a chance.

4) One one hand you complain that Apple is charging for iApps. On the other you are saying that they are abusing their monopoly buy giving away software that harms other developers. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Jason

Dahl
Jan 12, 2004, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by JJTiger1
YES !!! You are correct. Get over it. It's just a marketing ploy.
=-=
JJ
No reason to shout, dude...
I just haven't heard anybody mention it.

jenkij
Jan 12, 2004, 04:53 PM
]Actually, Apple has released a definitive statement that iTunes will be the only freely downloadable iApp now.


No, not exactly, Apple said iTunes is currently available for download, it DOES NOT say anything other than that.

ZenArcade
Jan 12, 2004, 06:53 PM
And I am serious about it.

Good software, (excellent software as iLife´04), should be paid for.

i don´t know how many people are working on iLife, but with high sales, that amount of coders won´t dwindle and fade.

Apple is doing two important things here :

1. providing excellent software to us.
2. investors like companies that makes money.

If you feel insulted by Apple, if you feel Apple has lied to you . . . .

maybe you should change hardware/software platform. maybe step over to the linux platform. I hear there is a lot of nice and user-friendly applications there. lots of 0.7 0.8 and 0.9 versions.

I wonder why they are free........


And to all you hotliners out there. move out of your mom´s house, maybe you will respect those who are spending a lot of time, money and effort into making a living as a programmer.

GregA
Jan 12, 2004, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by ZenArcade
Apple is doing two important things here :
1. providing excellent software to us.
2. investors like companies that makes money.Yes.
And 3. the perceived cost of owning a Mac has gone up a little.
(I guess that's the same as your #2.)

The fact is, if Apple is making more money, then owning a Mac is costing more. It doesn't matter if we agree that the extra cost is justified or not.

If something costs more, fewer people will buy it (maybe not significantly though). So they have to decide if the increased profit offsets the lower sales.

The GOOD thing for Apple about this move is that it doesn't affect new buyers, it only affects people who have already bought - and as such won't directly affect sales of new hardware.

applebum
Jan 13, 2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by ipoddin
It's not really marketing. Which companies offer free versions of their software only to then charge you for it down the line? Most offer demo's first, and then charge you for it - that is marketing.


AOL does it all the time - they give away the disk, packaging, everything. Those disks usually give you 1 month free. Then you start paying. This style of marketing made them the number one dial up service.

But basically you are saying that had Apple simply given us limited versions of iLife (demos) and then charged it would be OK and good marketing? But because they had the audacity to give us full versions and then charge it is not marketing and it is bad? If that is the case, just tell yourself that iLife up to this point has been a demo (a very full featured demo) and now they are charging for the upgraded actual product.

Also, from what I can tell, Apple's big mistake was only announcing the bundled version for $50 instead of also pricing the individual pieces at $29.95. Of course if they had done that, everyone would have bought the bundled version and said what a deal it was...I think Apple's marketing department slipped a little here!

mariner77
Jan 14, 2004, 09:08 AM
Mine shipped this morning. I ordered with ground shipping but got upgraded to 2nd day FedEx for free. That's the good thing when you preorder from Apple! :D

jayscheuerle
Jan 14, 2004, 09:35 AM
Concerning Limewire, etc.

I got my hands on the 4C4 build version or iPhoto 4 and it appears to need OpenGL (if not Quartz Extreme) to run a slideshow at all. It screwed up my iPhoto 2.0 library while updating. Luckily, I backed up everything within the past month.

I tested it on both my beige box at home (with original video card)- no slides, and on my G4 450 at work. Slides worked when the original video card played the slides, but not when the XClaim3D plus did.

I hope the final release addresses this or there will be a bunch of ticked off people (again) out there... - j

johnnyjibbs
Jan 14, 2004, 02:38 PM
I wouldn't expect the cube transition and other such 'Keynote-inspired' transitions to work without Quartz Extreme. It's a bit lame if you can't even view a slideshow at all though...

galactusofmyth
Jan 19, 2004, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
ah, it's funny that you were posting this just as I posted my last message. It doesn't matter if the bitching is justified. Suddenly charging for formerly free software pisses people off. And pissed off customers are customers who aren't going to buy from you again. And that's a problem for apple. "Justified" and "reasonable" have nothing to do with it.

It seems to me the simplest answer to the complaints about the price of iLife is, if custormers don't see $49 of value, they don't have to buy it. The previous versions work well (why are people suddenly acting like they are stuck with these dog applications, lol) so it should be ok to stick with those. For myself, I liked them. I made so many videos, photo slide shows, ordered a couple of bound books and organized music compilations over the holidays. The introduction of iLife '04 didn't make my current iApps any worse. But I also see benefits to iLife '04, so I bought it.

As always, you can use your dollars to vote on the value of iLife '04 to you. For me, $49 for iPhoto and iMovie alone would have been worth it.

johnnyjibbs
Jan 19, 2004, 04:18 PM
However good value it is, people don't like it when a company starts charging for software that was free.

It's also about price comparisons.

e.g. iPod mini looks good value next to crappy 256MB MP3 player but bad value next to regular iPods.

iLife '04 looks good value next to a lot of other apps (considering what you get) but bad value to someone wanting iPhoto upgrade that was previously free.

Personally I have no problems because they will all be useful to me. I would pay double just for GarageBand and iDVD. What people don't like is when Apple starts charging (however little) for something that was free.

What Apple should have done was offered iPhoto and iMovie (or each one separately) for $20 separately, alongside the iLife $49 package. Then they could have got round it by saying it was a "shipping and handling fee" ;)

louden
Jan 21, 2004, 09:10 AM
I've tried to play with Garageband on my iBook G3 900Mhz, with 648 GB ram and it sucks! I'm sure one reason Apple released this was to encourage early obsolesence.

I can only lay three tracks to a song, and after that, a "Your system sucks please buy a G5"

How is this running on a Powerbook G4? Is anyone having problems?

johnnyjibbs
Jan 21, 2004, 09:17 AM
Now we know why iBooks went G4...

But you'd think Apple would support 3 month old computers decently! Tusk.

EDIT: I'd tell you how GarageBand fairs on a PowerBook G4 if they would just hurry up and ship it to me! :D :rolleyes:

iMan
Jan 21, 2004, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by louden
I'm sure one reason Apple released this was to encourage early obsolesence.


Still waiting for my iLife to reach my PB G4... not released here in Norway until february (now THAT sucks ;)

Before harrassing Apple for the demand of hardware to use GB, please also remember that it is already 6 months since G5 got loose... which means that most should think that G3 was kind of obsolete already then...

I would be rather put off if all software for my upcoming dual G5 should be able to run on a G3 also - why would I then want the G5 in the first place?

I suppose a lot of people were feeling bad for not being able to use iPhoto on their OS9 boxes also (I was :)

johnnyjibbs
Jan 21, 2004, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by iMan
Still waiting for my iLife to reach my PB G4... not released here in Norway until february (now THAT sucks ;)

Before harrassing Apple for the demand of hardware to use GB, please also remember that it is already 6 months since G5 got loose... which means that most should think that G3 was kind of obsolete already then...

I would be rather put off if all software for my upcoming dual G5 should be able to run on a G3 also - why would I then want the G5 in the first place?

I suppose a lot of people were feeling bad for not being able to use iPhoto on their OS9 boxes also (I was :)
But GarageBand is a consumer app. The idea is that it enables any old joe to make music on their iBook. iBooks were being sold with G3 processors up until October. Few people (consumers) can afford G5s.

iMan
Jan 21, 2004, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
But GarageBand is a consumer app. The idea is that it enables any old joe to make music on their iBook. iBooks were being sold with G3 processors up until October. Few people (consumers) can afford G5s. [

I partly agree with you - and understand the frustration - but I am still of the opinion that the G3 iBook's were long overdue rather than GB being to demanding. Remember iMacs have been on G4 for a while - and are supposedly coming to G5 this year...
Also remember that the way GB apparently works is extremely hard on processor power - up to now hardly any pro-apps have had all the same features this one does in one box (the loops, soft-synths,amps, ability to simultanously record live music etc.). I suspect there would be no GB anywere nearly interesting to work with if they made it flow on G3s also - I am sorry to say, but G3 IS pretty old stuff now... :eek:

johnnyjibbs
Jan 21, 2004, 12:59 PM
True, but it sounds like Apple has not tried very hard to optimise the code. I have a great consumer music app which I used on my P3 500MHz PC (5 years old nearly) with Windows 98 and that computer could handle many simaltaneous tracks with real-time effects and the like.

My copy of GarageBand hasn't arrived yet so I can't test it out for myself, but I hope it is not as slow as the other apps (again can't comment yet on '04 versions). For example, why can my computer handle Final Cut Express far eaiser than it can handle iMovie? It should be as simple and hassle-free for consumers as possible.

louden
Jan 22, 2004, 08:21 PM
Does anyone else have problems running this on a G3 900?

How is this running on a G4? How many tracks can you add to a song before your mac starts to choke?

wombat2
Jan 23, 2004, 08:44 AM
My G4 450 tower chokes after three tracks.

johnnyjibbs
Jan 24, 2004, 09:07 AM
Well, iLife '04 arrived before its target shipping date and now I've had a chance to test out GarageBand on my 1GHz G4 PB.

I have to say that it works well so far with no problems. I haven't done that many tracks (up to 6-8) - a mixture of software and real instrument tracks with numerous effects and it's coping well.

In fact, the whole interface is pretty snappy - better than I was expecting. I'm also pleased that I didn't have to spend any cash on a pre-amp for my guitar - the line in on my Mac works perfectly :).

numediaman
Jan 25, 2004, 08:31 PM
I don't know if this is the right place for this post, but . . .

In preparation for buying a G5 I've reading the forums for iMovie and iDVD on the Apple site. My impression is that iDVD just does not work on the G5 (which I find remarkable).

Most people are finding that their burn times are longer -- except G5 people, who find that they can not burn at all using the new iDVD. This sucks.

I already have a copy of Toast that I'm sure will work, but I was hoping the new iLife would be an upgrade, not a bust.

How about the G5 owners here? What are you finding?

EDIT: There seems to be a huge disconnect between the new software Apple is introducing and the ability of Apple computers to run that software. If you really want to run GarageBand, or edit video, or burn DVDs you are going to need some real horsepower. A G3 or G4 won't cut it.

jbeetz
Jan 26, 2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by numediaman
Most people are finding that their burn times are longer -- except G5 people, who find that they can not burn at all using the new iDVD. This sucks.


yikes. I just finished a large project using DVD studio 2 on a dual G5 and it went flawlessly.......... can't stand that music when iDVD launches!

Haven't tried iDVD to burn, but have toyed with the app itselc and didn't have problems.:confused:

johnnyjibbs
Jan 27, 2004, 07:17 AM
I find iDVD4 to be a lot slower in general than iDVD3 was. I guess some of the new themes like Reveal are quite processor-intensive with motion turned on but even the old themes seem faster. And there is a long pause between pressing the preview button and actually seeing the preview. :(

Haven't burnt anything yet though. I expect burn times to take at least twice as long because Apple sent me 4x DVD-Rs instead of the (now discontinued) 2x DVD-Rs that I ordered for my PowerBook :mad: