Apple's Greatest Mistakes of All Time

[TommyLee]

Remember, everybody's entitled to their opinion.

Apple TV. I get no TV at all. Not even a DVD player. I have to re-purchase my entire movie collection via (guess who?) the :apple: Store! And they don't even have a fraction of my titles. Paying for your own slavery.
14 Day return policy. I think it's absurd that you cannot return unopened items after 14 days. Should be at least 30.
The whole PowerMac G5 Bluetooth issue (http://forums.macnn.com/65/mac-pro-and-power-mac/217991/link-needed-for-bluetooth-module/) ranks at the top of my list. At $2,499, a top of the line product should have had all the bluetooth modules, airports, antennas and doohickeys. No options about it.

[OutThere]

Apple TV. I get no TV at all. Not even a DVD player. I have to re-purchase my entire movie collection via (guess who?) the :apple: Store! And they don't even have a fraction of my titles. Paying for your own slavery.


Well you could rip your DVDs and save them to the Apple TV...

[TommyLee]

Well you could rip your DVDs and save them to the Apple TV... It takes forever to rip and then forever to convert. but its cool. my Apple TV is up to $135.00 on eBay.

Moderator's note: Please post in the Marketplace forum if you wish to promote your auction.

[Cromulent]

Probably the games console they released in the early to mid 90's whose name escapes me. That was a mistake :). Ditching the Newton as well must rank pretty highly.

[ZiggyPastorius]

Probably the games console they released in the early to mid 90's whose name escapes me. That was a mistake :). Ditching the Newton as well must rank pretty highly.

That was the Pippin. I'd vote +1 for that.

[evilgEEk]

I was going to say the Pippin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Pippin) as well.

I don't think Apple was foolish to ditch the Newton. I think it was just before its time and demand wasn't very high for it.

[SuperCompu2]

I was going to say the Pippin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Pippin) as well.

I don't think Apple was foolish to ditch the Newton. I think it was just before its time and demand wasn't very high for it.

My iPod touch fills the void well. I can't complain...

I personally think their biggest mistake was renaming the portable line to include the name Mac. I liked the seemingly happy "iBook" name, and the brawn of "PowerBook". MacBook Pro is just a mouthful, and while I have gotten accustomed to it, I still dislike uttering that many ugly syllables.

Also, PowerMac was fine! it had Mac in it! Gahhh!!!

[nick9191]

Windows Me, sorry Mobile Me
2.0 through 2.02 software for i/Pod/Phone
Moving to Intel

[EclipX]

G4 Cube

[Cameront9]

The Apple /// would have to be up there....

[cube]

No midrange machines.

[SDLSteve]

The 20th anniversary mac

[elppa]

Getting Microsoft to write software for the original Macintosh and John Sculley allowing Microsoft to use parts the Macintosh GUI to use for Windows.

Probably Apple not doing their own productivity software for the Mac in the first place would rank up there as well.

That had a lot to do with Apple losing their way in the 90s, amongst other reasons.

Not buying NeXT earlier. If Apple had OS X ready (and properly ready) 1999/2000 then they would have even more market share than they do now all things being equal I believe.

[IJ Reilly]

Getting Microsoft to write software for the original Macintosh and John Sculley allowing Microsoft to use parts the Macintosh GUI to use for Windows.

This one deserves another vote, if only because Scully himself identified it as the worst mistake he made as CEO. To clarify, the story goes that Microsoft threatened to stop developing software for the Mac if they didn't get the license. This was in '85.

Also:

Licensing Mac Clones: This experiment came as close to killing Apple as they have ever been close. It was doomed from the start.

Abandoning OpenDoc: Probably few remember this technology, but it could have revolutionized software development and been a bloatware killer. Jobs snuffed it shortly after taking over as CEO. I've always thought it was part of a back room deal between Apple and Microsoft, who if they weren't feeling threatened by OpenDoc, certainly should have been.

[Brianstorm91]

Getting rid of the 12" PowerBook?

[Sideonecincy]

I am going to have to agree with other people in this...the G4 Cube and getting rid of the 12" powerbook.

I never really understood the eMac and am glad it is gone.

[LynnW]

Apple's biggest mistake and nothing else even come close was the Lisa.

[FireArse]

Getting rid of the 12" PowerBook?

I remember after they pulled it, places ran out of their existing stock so quickly...

I think Apple staff realised; so had refurbs available (on the USA Store) for a least 6 months after. I was thinking of forwarding on to the UK.

My opinion, best machine made by Apple - on so many levels.

[IJ Reilly]

The Cube was an excellent computer, it was just too expensive to manufacture. It was hardly a "great mistake" let alone one of Apple's "greatest mistakes."

The eMac was originally introduced for educational markets only because the G4 iMac was too expensive for schools. It was released to the general market by popular demand.

[iGary]

G4 Cube

Probably one of their greatest triumphs considering the mini, iMac G4 and the iMac to follow all took lessons in it's putting a computer in a very small space.

[IJ Reilly]

Probably one of their greatest triumphs considering the mini, iMac G4 and the iMac to follow all took lessons in it's putting a computer in a very small space.

Exactly. The Cube is criticized simply because it didn't sell well, which is essentially all most people know about it. The engineering that went into this Mac was astounding, far beyond anything we're likely to see again. I don't know anyone who actually owned one who thinks they were a "mistake."

[Cromulent]

Abandoning OpenDoc: Probably few remember this technology, but it could have revolutionized software development and been a bloatware killer. Jobs snuffed it shortly after taking over as CEO. I've always thought it was part of a back room deal between Apple and Microsoft, who if they weren't feeling threatened by OpenDoc, certainly should have been.

Microsoft already had an OpenDoc style technology called OLE. It really wasn't that great, as a technology it had some serious flaws. Read the Wikipedia page, it is quite enlightening.

I actually remember using an OpenDoc application for a short while, it wasn't all that.

[TommyLee]

Furthering on the PowerBook thing, I love the keyboard. I can't stand the spacing on the MacBook keyboard. A colossal waste of space, contributing to my carpal tunnel syndrome.

[sushi]

The 20th anniversary mac
I have one, and love it. But I have to agree. Way too expensive and underpowered.

However, to see and touch one in person, it is so cool.

Licensing Mac Clones: This experiment came as close to killing Apple as they have ever been close. It was doomed from the start.
Agree.

Abandoning OpenDoc: Probably few remember this technology, but it could have revolutionized software development and been a bloatware killer.
Really, really, agree.

That was a sad day when OpenDoc was cancelled. Even IBM was on board.

OLE is not even close to the concept of OpenDoc. OLE sucks for the most part IMHO.

Jobs snuffed it shortly after taking over as CEO. I've always thought it was part of a back room deal between Apple and Microsoft, who if they weren't feeling threatened by OpenDoc, certainly should have been.
Hmm.... Interesting. Might be true.

Apple's biggest mistake and nothing else even come close was the Lisa.
I would disagree with this. Sure the Lisa was way to expensive, underpowered, etc. However, it is what gave birth the Mac. It was a learning platform if you will.

Getting rid of the 12" PowerBook?
Terrible idea on Apple's part.

The MBA does not fill that gap.

I wish that the MBP line would come in three sizes: 12, 15, and 17.

[Cromulent]

OLE is not even close to the concept of OpenDoc. OLE sucks for the most part IMHO.

So did OpenDoc. It required 25% of the RAM in your computer (well at least mine at the time) to just open an OpenDoc application. Sure once it was loaded you could open others without the load of the shared libraries but there were not enough OpenDoc applications out to make it worth it.

[IJ Reilly]

Microsoft already had an OpenDoc style technology called OLE. It really wasn't that great, as a technology it had some serious flaws. Read the Wikipedia page, it is quite enlightening.

I actually remember using an OpenDoc application for a short while, it wasn't all that.

OLE was primitive compared to OpenDoc, or at least the direction it was going. Apple had a similar technology called Publish and Subscribe. I sat though a hands-on demonstration of OpenDoc at a MacWorld Expo many years ago. Obviously it still needed a lot of work, but the potential was there.

[sushi]

So did OpenDoc. It required 25% of the RAM in your computer (well at least mine at the time) to just open an OpenDoc application. Sure once it was loaded you could open others without the load of the shared libraries but there were not enough OpenDoc applications out to make it worth it.
Unfortunately, OpenDoc was still in development when it was cancelled so we never saw the end result. So yes, it was resource intensive at the time. The developer information on it was superb. IMHO, if OpenDoc development had continued it would have become much more streamlined and would have changed the way we look at and use the desktop.

Also, I believe that it would have hurt Microsoft's and others who relied on proprietary standards to control the market. OpenDoc opened up file standards and accessibility. Rather than to purchase one huge application that did everything okay, you could purchase small streamlined and effective apps that did what you wanted to do, only much better, yet were standard so that other applications could edit the data.

OpenDoc was a very sweet concept.

OLE was not in the same ballpark.

OLE was primitive compared to OpenDoc, or at least the direction it was going. Apple had a similar technology called Publish and Subscribe. I sat though a hands-on demonstration of OpenDoc at a MacWorld Expo many years ago. Obviously it still needed a lot of work, but the potential was there.
Agree.

A simple analogy might be that Apple wanted cars to be able to use any gas that met a certain standard. Whereas Microsoft only wanted cars to use their gas.

[McGiord]

using cheap plastics and having lines of people waiting to get an issue resolved at the apple stores. Everyday it's increasing the amount of people walking in to the apples stores with their faulty apple products...

[Cromulent]

using cheap plastics and having lines of people waiting to get an issue resolved at the apple stores. Everyday it's increasing the amount of people walking in to the apples stores with their faulty apple products...

That is because their market share is increasing.

[IJ Reilly]

Unfortunately, OpenDoc was still in development when it was cancelled so we never saw the end result. So yes, it was resource intensive at the time. The developer information on it was superb. IMHO, if OpenDoc development had continued it would have become much more streamlined and would have changed the way we look at and use the desktop.

Also, I believe that it would have hurt Microsoft's and others who relied on proprietary standards to control the market. OpenDoc opened up file standards and accessibility. Rather than to purchase one huge application that did everything okay, you could purchase small streamlined and effective apps that did what you wanted to do, only much better, yet were standard so that other applications could edit the data.

OpenDoc was a very sweet concept.

OLE was not in the same ballpark.

Exactly. I lament being denied the opportunity to know what OpenDoc could have been. If it had fulfilled its early promise, the software industry as we know it would have been changed forever, and even more importantly, Microsoft's Offce hegemony would have been smashed. Maybe this would not have happened, but now we'll never know. So I think abandoning OpenDoc was one of Apple's greatest mistakes -- and I also suspect that Microsoft was behind it.

[remmy]

The latest mighty mouse

It could of been so much more if it didnt have so many little niggles.

[sushi]

So I think abandoning OpenDoc was one of Apple's greatest mistakes
Agree.

and I also suspect that Microsoft was behind it.
That would make sense.

[63dot]

Financially, the Cube but I liked that product.

The glitch in the iPhone 3G is a huge one. Time will only tell how bad this will turn out to be.

[McGiord]

That is because their market share is increasing.

and it's been poorly managed... they will start loosing some customers if they don't change the way how they are handling this market share increase.

[sushi]

and it's been poorly managed... they will start loosing some customers if they don't change this situation.
One thing you should remember, is that there are many satisfied Apple customers. They just don't post here.

On MR. we see the negative side of things.

Having said that, Apple does need to maintain their quality and customer service for if they don't this will adversely impact on them.

[63dot]

One thing you should remember, is that there are many satisfied Apple customers. They just don't post here.

On MR. we see the negative side of things.

Having said that, Apple does need to maintain their quality and customer service for if they don't this will adversely impact on them.

I think Macworld is especially hard on Apple, but they keep that company always striving to be better. Apple never sits on their hands and says, "we are the best", and they never ignore Macworld, which has a huge influence on buying trends. MacAddict and Mac Home are also influential and those three are what I see on the magazine stands.

Ironically PC World, same group ownership as Macworld, are friendlier in their reviews of everything Apple.

[elppa]

Apple's biggest mistake and nothing else even come close was the Lisa.

Why? It was a dry run for the Macintosh and did some things better than the Macintosh, mainly because the hardware was a whole heap more expensive.

[martychang]

Apple never sits on their hands and says, "we are the best"

They do when it comes to security issues..

[smurfjammer]

The first version of the hockeypuck mouse (the one without the groove)...the next version was better.

[sushi]

I think Macworld is especially hard on Apple, but they keep that company always striving to be better. Apple never sits on their hands and says, "we are the best", and they never ignore Macworld, which has a huge influence on buying trends. MacAddict and Mac Home are also influential and those three are what I see on the magazine stands.
Agree.

Speaking of MacWorld, I think that was a good decision on Apple's part to reduce the number of MacWorld events and now introduce computers, iPods, etc. on their own schedule.

Ironically PC World, same group ownership as Macworld, are friendlier in their reviews of everything Apple.
Ironic isn't it? :)

Apple never sits on their hands and says, "we are the best",They do when it comes to security issues..
Please provide an example where Apple, knowing full well there was a security breach, but decided not to do anything about it.

[63dot]

They do when it comes to security issues..

What I wonder is how they are going to work out this software bug in the iPhone 3G.

On one hand, they can quietly fix the bug and release an update and hope we forget.

But they could, as in their past honest ways, tell us exactly what went wrong, and fix the issue since us Apple users really want to know everything. Apple has been good about telling us everything and listening to us and putting out products based on our direct input.

I hope Apple will continue to tell us what is up, admit their mistakes, and strive to go beyond our expectations.

I think Apple derives great joy in beating even the most hopeful rumors that come out of this forum. The TiBook was an example and the iPhone was another, and most here had no idea that Apple would make such an quantum leap over the competition.

The next thing I think that Apple can do again blow away the industry and even the most hope Mac users is to offer the next and future versions of OS X at $49 dollars a copy. Not only would this please all Mac users, but it would be a great way to truly distance ourselves from Microsoft since they are at a low moment with Vista. It may bring a few percentage points to Apple in the OS market.

[Abstract]

One thing you should remember, is that there are many satisfied Apple customers. They just don't post here.

On MR. we see the negative side of things.


Like you, I've seen this transition from small to large market share, and while I did believe this for awhile, I don't believe it anymore. Right now, if an Apple product was released with no major issues, I'd consider it a miracle.

[ProwlingTiger]

Remember, everybody's entitled to their opinion.

Apple TV. I get no TV at all. Not even a DVD player. I have to re-purchase my entire movie collection via (guess who?) the :apple: Store! And they don't even have a fraction of my titles. Paying for your own slavery.

Why not just use or DVD player as well? Common sense would help a lot here. Using 2 devices isnt the end of the world.

14 day warranty is fairly standard for computers. And you failed to mention the biggest failure, the Pippin, leaving it for other people to post on.

[zap2]

Moving to Intel

Please...explain that one. That might be one of their best moves of all time.

[disconap]

The architecture of the Performa 6200. It crippled a great chipset.

That said, I had one in college and it was perfect for papers, basic internet, mac games, even early versions of Photoshop. But by the time I got out and started doing design work, I saw its flaws in all their glory...

[fleshman03]

Windows Me, sorry Mobile Me
2.0 through 2.02 software for i/Pod/Phone
Moving to Intel

What is it with things with Me in it? Am I really that bad? ;)

The name alone is a mistake... where is the Mac .... or i ?


I was going to say the Pippin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Pippin) as well.

I don't think Apple was foolish to ditch the Newton. I think it was just before its time and demand wasn't very high for it.

I always wonder what those things were - now I know it's a Pippin. Looks cool and MS showed that a computer/software company can get into video games - after plenty of losses.

The 20th anniversary mac

Underpowered and expensive, but I would have jumped to buy one if I was old enough. It's looks are really something else.

No midrange machines.

This is possibly the biggest mistake. It really drives those away who only have $500 to spend on a system. Apple could do that, but they make too much on the iMac.

There are two or three things I see that are a mistake happening now.
1) Updates are where? In time for back to school?
2) Quality overall build quality has gone to hell. Seriously, what the heck happened?
3) Customer service. If someone spends $2.5k on a computer, they deserve to be treated like royalty in your store and if something goes wrong. That is how you get people to spend another $2.5k and talk their friends into it.

[Hrududu]

My iPod touch fills the void well. I can't complain...

I personally think their biggest mistake was renaming the portable line to include the name Mac. I liked the seemingly happy "iBook" name, and the brawn of "PowerBook". MacBook Pro is just a mouthful, and while I have gotten accustomed to it, I still dislike uttering that many ugly syllables.

Also, PowerMac was fine! it had Mac in it! Gahhh!!!

100% in agreement with you. iBook sounds so elegant and Powerbook sounded like business. Why on earth they re-named them such stupid names is beyond me. Who knows what they'll end up being called with the next revision. Powermacinbookintosh?

[Saladinos]

Not buying photoshop

Photoshop was one of the Mac's killer apps before it came to Windows. Under Apple's guidance, it could have made the mac a much more successful platform. Apple has always focused on markets it already has a strong foothold in - graphic design is a major one.

Adobe has made photoshop bloated, change the UI with every major version, and don't have Apple's creative atmosphere. Now Photoshop on Windows is surpassing the Mac version (with things like GPU acceleration in CS4). This could be a major market to slip from Apple's hands.

Applications like Photoshop and MS Office have been showcases of how professional applications can be very profitable when ported the Mac. This has helped convince developers to recognise the OSX as a sensible development platform. Now though, Adobe is focusing on Windows, and leaving OSX behind. Apple should respond, and has only 3 options:

1. Buy Photoshop. Refocus it for the Mac. Would be expensive, so the Windows code will have to be kept to get that money back, and even that could take a while.
2. Compete with Photoshop. Bad idea. It doesn't have the photoshop brand, and releasing a competitor would likely kill off Mac Photoshop entirely, along with a lot of other Adobe Creative Suite applications. Potentially catastrophic.
3. Press Adobe to focus on the Mac. Would probably be the best solution. Jobs noted in 97 that, even though Photoshop was one of the biggest Mac applications, Apple didn't support Adobe enough. They never asked Adobe how they can make a Mac that ran PS better. If Apple provided engineering support to Adobe to help them leverage OSX, it could rebalance PS in favour of the Mac. The danger is that Adobe will want flash on the iPhone as part of the deal, which would anger both Microsoft and (more importantly) Google, and is something Apple really don't want happening anyway.

[elppa]

Adobe has made photoshop bloated, change the UI with every major version, and don't have Apple's creative atmosphere.

Aperture vs Lightroom.

Aperture started with a huge lead, now Adobe's investment in Lightroom means they have caught up and in many areas surpassed Aperture. Doesn't say much for Apple's creative atmosphere.

[McGiord]

One thing you should remember, is that there are many satisfied Apple customers. They just don't post here.

On MR. we see the negative side of things.

Having said that, Apple does need to maintain their quality and customer service for if they don't this will adversely impact on them.

I was one of the satisfied customers, I am a macuser since 1986.
You are right about the fact that most of the posts are from people complaining, but to have a better idea of how the things are really going just go to an apple store, there you will see a lot of potential new customers, many people buying and a good significant amount of people bringing their apple gear for repair service/warranty.
I like the current products, but their quality isn't the same as it was.
I have changed my perception of apple's quality.
Software issues can always be controlled via an update, but hardware issues require an annoying trip or shipment plus time without your apple gear.

[Tosser]

Not buying photoshop

Photoshop was one of the Mac's killer apps before it came to Windows. Under Apple's guidance, it could have made the mac a much more successful platform. Apple has always focused on markets it already has a strong foothold in - graphic design is a major one.
Audio seems as a major one as well (considering the niche of audio, that is).

However, I think you're in the reality distortion field if you think that things would be better in any way, if just Apple had PS (or any othe app) in their fold.


Adobe has made photoshop bloated, change the UI with every major version, and don't have Apple's creative atmosphere.
LOL, "creative atmosphere"?
I'm sorry, but those days are over.
Apple's "pro apps" are nowhere near "creative" anymore, they're bloated and butt slow.
To name but a few I consider bloatware (not in order): Soundtrack Pro, Garageband, Pages, Logic Pro/Express, and Aperture.
Most of those have equivalents, not only with Adobe, but from many other companies. And even compared to what was usually considered to be the master of bloat, only second to MS: Adobe, they're STILL huge and awfully slow.


Now Photoshop on Windows is surpassing the Mac version (with things like GPU acceleration in CS4). This could be a major market to slip from Apple's hands.
Yes, but don't think for a second you'd have more feautures on a Mac if it was in Apple's hands.

Applications like Photoshop and MS Office have been showcases of how professional applications can be very profitable when ported the Mac. This has helped convince developers to recognise the OSX as a sensible development platform. Now though, Adobe is focusing on Windows, and leaving OSX behind. Apple should respond, and has only 3 options:

1. Buy Photoshop. Refocus it for the Mac. Would be expensive, so the Windows code will have to be kept to get that money back, and even that could take a while.
You're kidding, right? Do you honestly think Adobe are selling? And even if they did, considering how Apple has acted and dumbed down catering to the lowest common denominator these recent years, almost completely ignoring the pro users out there, I realy don't think this would be a great idea for the end users.


2. Compete with Photoshop. Bad idea. It doesn't have the photoshop brand, and releasing a competitor would likely kill off Mac Photoshop entirely, along with a lot of other Adobe Creative Suite applications. Potentially catastrophic.
Hmm. Just because they lowered the market price on such apps, when they made final cut pro, doesn't mean no other products like that is available on OS X.

3. Press Adobe to focus on the Mac. Would probably be the best solution. Jobs noted in 97 that, even though Photoshop was one of the biggest Mac applications, Apple didn't support Adobe enough. They never asked Adobe how they can make a Mac that ran PS better. If Apple provided engineering support to Adobe to help them leverage OSX, it could rebalance PS in favour of the Mac. The danger is that Adobe will want flash on the iPhone as part of the deal, which would anger both Microsoft and (more importantly) Google, and is something Apple really don't want happening anyway.
Wow, mixing it all together in one big stirring pot, adding ingredients, speculations and motives as you go along.
I really don't know where to begin, with what you say here, but suffice to say: even considered as "speculation" you seem to be over reaching in your eager to "prove" that it would be best for Apple to buy Photoshop.


Aperture vs Lightroom.

Aperture started with a huge lead, now Adobe's investment in Lightroom means they have caught up and in many areas surpassed Aperture. Doesn't say much for Apple's creative atmosphere.

Indeed.

[Saladinos]

Tosser:

PS would be better for Apple if it were in their hands. Maybe not a better application, but from a business perspective, it would be better for Apple and the Mac system.

I don't think Apple's creative days are over. They're still loaded with innovation - things like Visual Voicemail, which are so simple, yet never been done before (in mainstream products. There was some patent allegation with VV). There's also great things like .Mac/MobileMe synchronisation of setting in Logic Studio, which you won't see on any other platform.

Also, how on Earth could you call Pages bloated? Pages is as simplistic as you can get. It doesn't have half the useless crap the Word has. In fact, it doesn't have half the useful crap that Word has (anybody here use equations?)

I wouldn't call Aperture bloated either. It's quite difficult to use, but it's not 'bloated' as such - it doesn't contain unnecessary features that make it prohibitively slow. Perhaps it's not the industry-leading software that it once was, but I don't see any reason Apple can't bounce back with Aperture 3.0.

I also wouldn't say that Apple dumbs down it's pro applications. My friend is a graphic designer for quite a large studio/firm. I went down there once, and asked a few people what random buttons did (I use photoshop occasionally. I always wondered if anyone knew what half the buttons did). Surprise, surprise - most of the designers there, despite working for large corporate customers and winning several design awards, didn't know what a lot of the buttons did. At least if Apple took hold of PS, things would be better documented with a cleaner interface.

Also, Apple have something like $20Bn in cash. Adobe as a company isn't worth much more than that. If Apple wanted it badly enough, they could take Photoshop. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you see a joint Apple-Google takeover of Adobe in the next 5 years. Apple taking control of the creative software, and Google taking their web technologies and opening lots of their proprietary platforms.

I can't see that I'm adding anything in any desperate attempt to prove anything. Adobe want Flash to proliferate. Apple has one of the biggest web-enabled platforms that doesn't have flash under it's wing. It's safe to assume Adobe are quite bitter about that, and that any attempt by Apple to strengthen their partnership would require Apple to make concessions on the iPhone w.r.t flash. Google has always been opposed to flash, and Apple's adoption and development of SproutCore (a.k.a. Cocoa for the web), makes it seem like they agree with Google.

[Tosser]

Tosser:

PS would be better for Apple if it were in their hands. Maybe not a better application, but from a business perspective, it would be better for Apple and the Mac system.
Oh, I see your point: You began by arguing that it sucks that PS on the mac lacks behind the windows version. But that is not your real concern. No, it's about Apple as a corporation would benefit …

Still, I don't think that's necessarily true, given that they might be too slow to update, have way too many bugs and so forth, and therefore open up for other companies (Adobe, mainly) to make a similar application.


I don't think Apple's creative days are over. They're still loaded with innovation - things like Visual Voicemail, which are so simple, yet never been done before (in mainstream products. There was some patent allegation with VV). There's also great things like .Mac/MobileMe synchronisation of setting in Logic Studio, which you won't see on any other platform.
Visual voicemail is yet another lowest-denominator bloat-feature. And frankly, .Mac/MobileMe is hardly "innovative" - the only innovative part og Mobile Me is the marketing and how said marketing can make people buy into such tie-ins along with buying crippled hardware.


Also, how on Earth could you call Pages bloated? Pages is as simplistic as you can get. It doesn't have half the useless crap the Word has.
That doesn't mean it isn't bloated (I'm not talking feature bloat). It simply means that for what it does, it's bloated.

In fact, it doesn't have half the useful crap that Word has (anybody here use equations?)
Nope. I don't use equations. I use Bean and text edit mostly. Yes, you're allowed to laugh, but it's quick, effortless and just what I need 95 percent of the time.

Word is bloated too. Not necessarily because of the features (although they could pare it down, quite frankly), but because a text editor shouldn't be so slow that it sometimes lags when typing at my speed on a 2GB 2.33GHz computer. Word needs some serious work. I can't stand writing in that thing: It should react just as fast as typing in the boxes here on MacRumors (on just about any browser, it's instantaneous).




I wouldn't call Aperture bloated either. It's quite difficult to use, but it's not 'bloated' as such - it doesn't contain unnecessary features that make it prohibitively slow. Perhaps it's not the industry-leading software that it once was, but I don't see any reason Apple can't bounce back with Aperture 3.0.
Anything is possible, I guess. The question to me is: How likely is that scenario?

But again: I'm not talking about "too many features". I'm talking about having too much code or whatever it is that makes so many Apple apps so slow and cumbersome.
I really can't have a discussion with someone who's main argument that something doesn't suck is "Well, they might bounce back in the next version". ;)

I also wouldn't say that Apple dumbs down it's pro applications. My friend is a graphic designer for quite a large studio/firm. I went down there once, and asked a few people what random buttons did (I use photoshop occasionally. I always wondered if anyone knew what half the buttons did). Surprise, surprise - most of the designers there, despite working for large corporate customers and winning several design awards, didn't know what a lot of the buttons did. At least if Apple took hold of PS, things would be better documented with a cleaner interface.

I'm not quite sure what you're really arguing here. On one hand, you seem to disagree with me, only to agree they would dumb it down by making a "cleaner" interface.
What do you mean by "better documented"?


Also, Apple have something like $20Bn in cash. Adobe as a company isn't worth much more than that. If Apple wanted it badly enough, they could take Photoshop.
Are you suggesting they could make a hostile take-over, not of the company, but of one of the company's apps?


In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you see a joint Apple-Google takeover of Adobe in the next 5 years. Apple taking control of the creative software, and Google taking their web technologies and opening lots of their proprietary platforms.
And you're baseing that on?
Secondly, how does that help your argument that it would be better if Apple took over Photoshop?

I can't see that I'm adding anything in any desperate attempt to prove anything. Adobe want Flash to proliferate. Apple has one of the biggest web-enabled platforms that doesn't have flash under it's wing. It's safe to assume Adobe are quite bitter about that, and that any attempt by Apple to strengthen their partnership would require Apple to make concessions on the iPhone w.r.t flash. Google has always been opposed to flash, and Apple's adoption and development of SproutCore (a.k.a. Cocoa for the web), makes it seem like they agree with Google.

Flash? And this has what to do with what we discussed previously?

[thejadedmonkey]

Biggest blunder: removing the i/power from their laptop line, and replacing it with mac/pro. It just sounds horrible!

[Les Kern]

The eMac was originally introduced for educational markets only because the G4 iMac was too expensive for schools. It was released to the general market by popular demand.

And popular it was/is. I have hundreds of them, and for the price they are SOLID machines. Had only a few fail since they were released. Without lower-priced units like the eMac and the current 17" iMac, trust me, Apple would have had a LOT of trouble hanging on to EDU over the last few years.
So for EDU, the eMac might make the list of the BEST Apple product ever.

Apple NEEDS a low price EDU solution and they know it.

[IJ Reilly]

Hundreds of them, eh? I'd hate to be the one to pay the electric bill at your house!

[Full of Win]

1. Not getting a patent on hierarchical file structure in music players (100,000,000$ down the crapper)
2. The early 80's 'look and feel' debacle - Apple gave away the store to M$
3. Sherlock

[IJ Reilly]

How was Sherlock a mistake?

[iGary]

The Apple puck mouse has to be the worst peripheral I have every used in my life.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Apple_iMac_USB_mouse.jpg

[bartelby]

The Apple puck mouse has to be the worst peripheral I have every used in my life.


Yep, I have to agree.

[GSMiller]

Biggest mistake? Locking the iPhone to AT&T. If they were going to use the GSM network they should have at least gone with T-Mobile.

[IJ Reilly]

Biggest mistake? Locking the iPhone to AT&T. If they were going to use the GSM network they should have at least gone with T-Mobile.

Yeah, what a mistake -- look at how poorly it sells.

[fleshman03]

The Apple puck mouse has to be the worst peripheral I have every used in my life.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Apple_iMac_USB_mouse.jpg

**Cringe**

That mouse can make grown men cry.

Yeah, what a mistake -- look at how poorly it sells.

Biggest mistake? Locking the iPhone to AT&T. If they were going to use the GSM network they should have at least gone with T-Mobile.

It's not a matter of how much it sells now, but how much it could have sold if other providers would have allowed it. I'd bet at least double the bottom line. Apple should have worked harder to get it on other networks - or at least not create an exclusive phone for 5 years.

[SDLSteve]

**Cringe**

That mouse can make grown men cry.

Yep, it goes great next to the flower power imac.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Biggest mistake? Locking the iPhone to AT&T. If they were going to use the GSM network they should have at least gone with T-Mobile.

There is no arguing that AT&T has better US coverage and a better 3G network. Going with T-Mobile would have been a horrible mistake.

[FF_productions]

There is no arguing that AT&T has better US coverage and a better 3G network. Going with T-Mobile would have been a horrible mistake.

Still, it would have been nice to have options. 4 more years to go.

[iGary]

There is no arguing that AT&T has better US coverage and a better 3G network. Going with T-Mobile would have been a horrible mistake.

Steve: "OK, we have to build a GSM phone so we can sell it all over the world; it's the international standard."

Phill Schiller: "Well how about T-Mobile?"

Steve: "You're a dumb ass, Phil."

Apple went with the GSM provider with the greatest number of subscribers and the biggest GSM network. Aside from AT&T's crappy network, it was the right choice.

[IJ Reilly]

Apple went with the GSM provider with the greatest number of subscribers and the biggest GSM network. Aside from AT&T's crappy network, it was the right choice.

The quality of any cell network is going to be very dependent on your location. Nobody has the best network everywhere.

I think some are defining "terrible mistake" as "something I don't like, personally."

[iGary]

The quality of any cell network is going to be very dependent on your location. Nobody has the best network everywhere.

I think some are defining "terrible mistake" as "something I don't like, personally."

Well I used to be with Verizon and had very few, if any, problems anywhere, and I do travel a bit.

AT&T has actual dead zones throughout my town and to other places I have visited. This simply did not occur with Verizon.

Anywho, let's not get off topic. :)

OS 10.0 laid the groundwork for later versions of OS X and was a necessary transition, but good lord did it suck.

[jpmittins]

I don't understand people saying that the lack of i/power in the product names is a terrible mistake. I don't really have much of a preference, but I think I prefer the newer names more. Anyway, I have to say that the puck mouse was one of the stupidest things ever, along with Apple never making a true two button mouse with 2 real physical buttons. Flame me if you want, but I think Apple could have made something elegant that still had two buttons on it (plus, I think the MM looks dumb and ugly; especially the wireless one). There was something else I had thought of a few weeks ago, but I don't remember know. If I remember it, I'll post.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

I don't understand people saying that the lack of i/power in the product names is a terrible mistake. I don't really have much of a preference, but I think I prefer the newer names more. Anyway, I have to say that the puck mouse was one of the stupidest things ever, along with Apple never making a true two button mouse with 2 real physical buttons. Flame me if you want, but I think Apple could have made something elegant that still had two buttons on it (plus, I think the MM looks dumb and ugly; especially the wireless one). There was something else I had thought of a few weeks ago, but I don't remember know. If I remember it, I'll post.

how can the wireless one look 'especially ugly?' It looks the exact same!

[jpmittins]

how can the wireless one look 'especially ugly?' It looks the exact same!

No, for some reason I just think without the wire to balance it out, the wireless MM just looks like a curved brick, not anything I would want to control a computer with. Or else it looks like a curved white turd. It depends of my mood.

[GSMiller]

Yeah, what a mistake -- look at how poorly it sells.

But think how much better it would sell if it wasn't tied to just AT&T. Would you have bought a Macintosh if AOL was the internet service you could use with it? I think not.

It's not a matter of how much it sells now, but how much it could have sold if other providers would have allowed it. I'd bet at least double the bottom line. Apple should have worked harder to get it on other networks - or at least not create an exclusive phone for 5 years.

Exactly. I myself prefer the coverage offered by CDMA providers, but I would be willing to use a GSM network to get the iPhone so as long as it's not AT&T.

There is no arguing that AT&T has better US coverage and a better 3G network. Going with T-Mobile would have been a horrible mistake.

But what good is the "better" coverage if customer support is sub-par?

[TuffLuffJimmy]

But what good is the "better" coverage if customer support is sub-par?

That doesn't even make sense. How often do you have to deal with customer support? People are used to being beaten up when they need to speak with customer service. If people didn't choose to support something because the customer service was bad then no one in the US would drive. **** DMV.

[IJ Reilly]

But think how much better it would sell if it wasn't tied to just AT&T.

So why did Apple do that? Probably no reason at all.

[DigiCatRedux]

I certainly haven't used a Mac long enough to remember things like the Lisa, or Newton or that fabulous "Puck Mouse" (though I've see one... Uugly!)-
But I'll chime in on a couple things I think are "Apple Mistakes".

* No user-changeable iPod batterys. That goes for the iPhone too.
Granted, I can understand in the interest of keeping the form factor as slim as possible Why they sealed the batterys - but at the expense of being able to just toss in a fresh battery when you need it? I know some people don't care, but I find it annoying when my iPod runs out of juice, and I have to either A: stick it back into an outlet (good luck finding one of those on a mountain slope) or B: slap on one of those ugly 3rd party "Power Pack" boosters.
Don't even get me started on the whole "send us your iPod/iPhone back to Apple for battery replacement when it finally dies for a nominal fee. It'll take two weeks. Here's a cookie". Grrr.

* Apple TV. Sounded great when the first few tid-bits about it came out - now, to me it just sounds like a waste of money - and kind of smacks of the DIVX creation Best Buy came up with a few years ago, where content and what you can view on it is highly regulated. It certainly has its restrictions- and isn't enough of a machine to have me wanting one anytime soon.

* Nothing under a Grand. Aside from the "add-your own monitor/keyboard/etc" Mac Mini, right now Apple doesn't sell any model under a Thousand dollars. Not the Notebooks, not the iMac - nothing. Which to me is a shame, because I think Apple is missing a huge chunk of the marketplace that would buy a Mac - but that thousand dollar wall is too much for them to climb. It could be a great introduction for kids, or college students or anyone who likes the Mac - but only has a budget of say $600 to $800 bucks. So you throw out a few features - doesn't mean you can't build a quality machine for less than a Grand, that maybe doesn't do everything and isn't the fastest cat in the jungle - but it's more then decent and is solid & works well. Just sayin'.

[IJ Reilly]

It strikes me as kind of strange to say that Apple doesn't sell any Macs for under a grand, except for the Macs they do sell for under a grand.

[Tosser]

It strikes me as kind of strange to say that Apple doesn't sell any Macs for under a grand, except for the Macs they do sell for under a grand.

He he, it sure does. However, I think he means that they don't sell anything under grand, that works out of the box without you having to add the rest of the parts (keyboard, mouse and screen) in order to have it working.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

He he, it sure does. However, I think he means that they don't sell anything under grand, that works out of the box without you having to add the rest of the parts (keyboard, mouse and screen) in order to have it working.

It's still a ridiculous claim. Many PC makers don't sell computers that work right out of the box. Apple just don't have one for under a grand. So what?

[iGuardian]

* Nothing under a Grand. Aside from the "add-your own monitor/keyboard/etc" Mac Mini, right now Apple doesn't sell any model under a Thousand dollars.

With that logic, wouldn't most PC manufacturer's be selling their computers for over a grand?

[rdowns]

The under a grand criticism is a fair one. Apple does not sell any fully configured system for under a grand. The mini with an Apple monitor, KB and mouse is $1,296. For that, you get a whole 1GB of RAM, a whopping 80 GB hard drive and a lousy combo drive.

That said, Apple is shipping more computers than ever. Their prices are not hurting them as much as people think. As a stockholder, I say leave the low margin business to the others.

[jpmittins]

It's still a ridiculous claim. Many PC makers don't sell computers that work right out of the box. Apple just don't have one for under a grand. So what?

Well, my HP laptop worked out of the box, and it's MSRP was $1,000 dollars. However, since it was on sale, I got it for $750. Plus, I think my sister's Compaq laptop was under a grand (though it's specs weren't as good as mine, since hers is a year older).

The under a grand criticism is a fair one. Apple does not sell any fully configured system for under a grand. The mini with an Apple monitor, KB and mouse is $1,296. For that, you get a whole 1GB of RAM, a whopping 80 GB hard drive and a lousy combo drive.

That said, Apple is shipping more computers than ever. Their prices are not hurting them as much as people think. As a stockholder, I say leave the low margin business to the others.

While I agree with you, just remember that your are not forced to use Apple's components when using the Mini. But I still agree that it's an underpowered machine for that much money.

[rdowns]

While I agree with you, just remember that your are not forced to use Apple's components when using the Mini. But I still agree that it's an underpowered machine for that much money.

Of course you can use other peripherals but if you don't own any, are you really going to buy a CPU from Apple and then run to Best Buy for a monitor, KB and mouse?

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Well, my HP laptop worked out of the box, and it's MSRP was $1,000 dollars. However, since it was on sale, I got it for $750. Plus, I think my sister's Compaq laptop was under a grand (though it's specs weren't as good as mine, since hers is a year older).



While I agree with you, just remember that your are not forced to use Apple's components when using the Mini. But I still agree that it's an underpowered machine for that much money.

I guess you didn't read the part where I said, 'many' not 'all'.

[IJ Reilly]

Wow, it hardly takes even the drop of a hat to get this debate raging again.

I realize that for some, the Mac mini simply doesn't "count" as a sub-$1,000 Mac, though it clearly is a substantially less than $1,000 Mac, even with the addition of a monitor, keyboard and mouse. The basic logical contradiction being offered up here was my only point. Like it or not, the mini is Apple's entry in the under $1,000 market. It exists.

[kabunaru]

Apple's greatest mistake:
In my opinion, Apple's switch to Intel.
They should have stayed with PowerPC but still have the designs of the Intel Macs.

[rdowns]

Apple's greatest mistake:
In my opinion, Apple's switch to Intel.
They should have stayed with PowerPC but still have the designs of the Intel Macs.

PowerPC was dead. IBM was not able to deliver a higher clock speed chip as had been promised nor a low power version for the mythical PowerBook G5. Jobs really had no choice.

No surprise that Macs really took off after the Intel switch and being able to run Windows. It allowed millions to buy and use a Mac even if they needed to run Windows only software.

[kabunaru]

PowerPC was dead. IBM was not able to deliver a higher clock speed chip as had been promised nor a low power version for the mythical PowerBook G5. Jobs really had no choice.

No surprise that Macs really took off after the Intel switch and being able to run Windows. It allowed millions to buy and use a Mac even if they needed to run Windows only software.

Could not Apple just increase the speed (over-clock) of the G4 laptops or even make them Dual-core? Would not that even help in any way?

What about the G5s? Could not Apple just severely under-clock them for the use in the laptops?

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Could not Apple just increase the speed (over-clock) of the G4 laptops or even make them Dual-core? Would not that even help in any way?

What about the G5s? Could not Apple just severely under-clock them for the use in the laptops?

No. No and no. Why would they do that when it would be easier to go to intel? It'd also be cheaper to the end user and it'd still be more powerful.

you can't just make a g4 dual core, they would have to redesign the chip and thus it would no longer be a g4. Underclocking the g5 would then have no advantages to the g4. There was no other choice for Apple. And if they did double up the cores they would need desktop grade motherboards, thus they would have to make their portable line muuuuch thicker. Since you don't know anything about processors why would you care if Apple switched to intel or not?

[jpmittins]

Apple's greatest mistake:
In my opinion, Apple's switch to Intel.
They should have stayed with PowerPC but still have the designs of the Intel Macs.

I just don't get it; why do some people hate the Intel switch so much? It seems like it was one of the best moves Apple ever did.

Of course you can use other peripherals but if you don't own any, are you really going to buy a CPU from Apple and then run to Best Buy for a monitor, KB and mouse?

Well, if you know that you can use any and that Apple's peripherals are much more expensive than the competition for sometimes not much more than a pretty logo, I think the buyer would do that.

[kabunaru]

Since you don't know anything about processors why would you care if Apple switched to intel or not?

Because I do not want Apple to use almost the same hardware as PCs.

[jpmittins]

Because I do not want Apple to use almost the same hardware as PCs.

And thus the flame war begins!

In the fanboy corner, we have kabunaru, facing off in a cage match supreme against the more liberal tuffluffjimmy. Let the betting begin.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Because I do not want Apple to use almost the same hardware as PCs.

Why not? A PC is a PC an Apple computer isn't any different other than the OS. You're saying you would want a slower, more expensive, less energy efficient machine just so you can say "I have a PPC processor, not an itnel. It makes my machine better because it's slower, more expensive and can't run as many OS's as your stupid intel machine."

And thus the flame war begins!

In the fanboy corner, we have kabunaru, facing off in a cage match supreme against the more liberal tuffluffjimmy. Let the betting begin.

;)

[rdowns]

Because I do not want Apple to use almost the same hardware as PCs.

Do you think using Macs makes you cool or something?

I have news for you. Apple has used pretty much the same hardware as PC vendors for ages. It the OS, dude.

[kabunaru]

Do you think using Macs makes you cool or something?


No, I just prefer to be "different" than the other guys.

Did any other PCs use PowerPC processors when Apple used PowerPC? I am afraid no.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Do you think using Macs makes you cool or something?

I have news for you. Apple has used pretty much the same hardware as PC vendors for ages. It the OS, dude.

No, I just prefer to be "different" than the other guys.

And by that, Kabunaru, you meant, "Yes, rdowns, I am so pretentious that I would use a more expensive less efficient processor just to say I think I'm better than the average computer user. I would cut off my nose to spite my face too!"

[kabunaru]

And by that, Kabunaru, you meant, "Yes, rdowns, I am so pretentious that I would use a more expensive less efficient processor just to say I think I'm better than the average computer user. I would cut off my nose to spite my face too!"

Did you hear me? I said "different" not "better" or "worse".

[BigHungry04]

I would cut off my nose to spite my face too!"

Sounds like fun. Can I watch?

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Did you hear me? I said "different" not "better" or "worse".

Well I guess it wouldn't be different it would just be worse. Since there are no pros to using PPC processors.

Sounds like fun. Can I watch?
You'll have to ask Kabunaru.

[sra. Aguirre]

I'm sure it has already been mentioned in this thread but it so annoys me that I am taking the risk of possible beheading, by mentioning it again (and again if I have to!)
WHY O WHY are there only 2 USB slots on the MBP 15"?:eek:
It's a shame that for the price I paid I still have to get extra equipment in order to have more USB entries...

Shame shame shame...

Love my MBP though and would not change it for any other notebook :D

[zap2]

Of course you can use other peripherals but if you don't own any, are you really going to buy a CPU from Apple and then run to Best Buy for a monitor, KB and mouse?

They sell Apple's at Best Buy :p

I think the point is many users have a monitor, keyboard and mouse, so for them a Mac Mini has a purpose.

[rdowns]

They sell Apple's at Best Buy :p



http://www.anjelicasboudoir.com/WEBPAGE/pics/balloons/misc/doh.jpg


I've made better analogies before. :D

[kabunaru]

Any ways, I will stop this arguing with you now. You win this case because I have little energy arguing with you now.

[IJ Reilly]

No, I just prefer to be "different" than the other guys.

Then take up the Commodore Vic-20, or the Amiga. That'll make you about as different as different can be.

[Tosser]

They sell Apple's at Best Buy :p

I think the point is many users have a monitor, keyboard and mouse, so for them a Mac Mini has a purpose.

He he, I absolutely agree.

However, being a one laptop-kind of guy, sometimes I wonder if I should go for a decent desktop. Now, I can do my work on my MBP just fine (I do audio, write and "stuff"), but I would really like to have a desktop with a fast _and_ big HDD, and certainly with better specs overall than my 2.33GHz MBP.

And this is where I hit a brick wall with apple products. I can either:

a) buy a laptop-in-a-shoebox, having _less_ expansion, much less speed, and generally butt-slow performance.

b) buy an all-in-one like the iMac. Now, anothe reason for wanting a desktop is, to me, getting an external screen while having most accessories and cables hidden away. With the iMac, this is not a solution. I could just well raise my laptop then (apart for the screen size, of course).

OR, I could:

c) buy a Mac Pro. Which, frankly, is horrendously overkill, a waste of power, a waste of money, not to mention, a huge waste of space.

Now, I know for a fact, that I won't be buying another Apple computer soon (I'm going hackintosh through a Thinkpad), but I have a hard time believing that there aren't a lot of people with about the same needs and wants as me.

I know, I know, you didn't claim anything opposite of what I do – your post just got me thinking, that's all. :)

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Jimmy, that's it. I dislike America and most Americans now even though I have some American friends (they are an exception). The American society is nothing but based on aggression, fear and celebrity bimbo. They have little history and can be the most mean, loud-mouth, arrogant and obnoxious people on this Earth. :rolleyes:

There, I feel better now. :rolleyes:

Any ways, I will stop this arguing with you now. You win this case because I have little energy arguing with you now.

adorable. Because I'm a little more well informed than you you now hate the country I currently reside in? I'm glad I finally met my goal.

[rdowns]

Jimmy, that's it. I dislike America and most Americans now even though I have some American friends (they are an exception). The American society is nothing but based on aggression, fear and celebrity bimbo. They have little history and can be the most mean, loud-mouth, arrogant and obnoxious people on this Earth. :rolleyes:

There, I feel better now. :rolleyes:

Any ways, I will stop this arguing with you now. You win this case because I have little energy arguing with you now.

Wow, generalize much?

[kabunaru]

I am sorry guys.

[elppa]

Not convincing Panic to do iTunes.

Not their greatest mistake by any means, but I think we'd have a better iTunes if they had.

[jpmittins]

I'm sure it has already been mentioned in this thread but it so annoys me that I am taking the risk of possible beheading, by mentioning it again (and again if I have to!)
WHY O WHY are there only 2 USB slots on the MBP 15"?:eek:
It's a shame that for the price I paid I still have to get extra equipment in order to have more USB entries...

Shame shame shame...

Love my MBP though and would not change it for any other notebook :D

I have to agree; the lack of proper amount and style of ports is annoying. It's ridiculous that on my $1000 PC, I have 3 USB ports, but if I want an Apple laptop (which I do in the future) I have to spend $2800 for the same number of USB ports. Besides, I don't want a 17" computer with three USB, I want a 15" with three USB without having to buy a hub. Also, I think maybe one of those things that reads SD cards being built in would be good for photo professionals.

[IJ Reilly]

I have to agree; the lack of proper amount and style of ports is annoying.

Keeping the thread topic in mind...

[jpmittins]

Keeping the thread topic in mind...

How was I deviating form the original topic?

[kabunaru]

I take back what I said about some Americans and ignore listing Jimmy. I apologise.

Any ways, another mistake for Apple is I guess the Cube G4. Apple basically said "Oops" at the end but the design of it was great.

[jpmittins]

I take back what I said about some Americans and ignore listing Jimmy. I apologise.

Any ways, another mistake for Apple is I guess the Cube G4. Apple basically said "Oops" at the end but the design of it was great.

So how do all Americans conform to your idea of them? Unless you've met every American in the world, you're not qualified to make a remark like that. Seems very small minded of you. You don't see me making blanket comments about everybody from where you're from.

[kabunaru]

So how do all Americans conform to your idea of them? Unless you've met every American in the world, you're not qualified to make a remark like that. Seems very small minded of you. You don't see me making blanket comments about everybody from where you're from.
Just leave that subject alone now.

[IJ Reilly]

How was I deviating form the original topic?

The topic is "Apple's Greatest Mistakes of All Time," which is not the same as "things which annoy me personally."

[jpmittins]

The topic is "Apple's Greatest Mistakes of All Time," which is not the same as "things which annoy me personally."

Well, I just think it's a bad idea of Apple's to not put enough ports on certain computers (or under power them for the price-that's a topic for another thread though). I think they lose some business by not doing that, though you're right, it's not their "greatest mistake."

However, people deviate from the original topic of the thread all the time; I made a thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=549849) a few days ago that started out with people answering the question; unfortunately, there is little more than discussion about part of the topic, as opposed to people answering the original topic. Like someone said in that very thread, it's a public forum, not a survey; people are going to talk about other things than just the original topic. That's just how life is.

[IJ Reilly]

Sure people drift off topic all the time, but that's no reason to not remind them what the topic was supposed to be when it happens.

The fact is, probably dozens of threads get started every week about people's various pet peeves. This thread was about something else.

[BrownPlopz]

Greatest mistake ever... Hmmmm... I second or third or fourth (or whichever number of person I am to do this) the Pippen.

[macenforcer]

Getting rid of the isight camera!

[Tosser]

Getting rid of the isight camera!

lol, at first I thought I misunderstood you, as I really hate the introduced isight on their "pro" laptops.

Then I realised you meant the original isight, the external FW-thingy. :o

[ra noodle]

i still have my WORKING PB12" and am saving up for a larger HD from OWC......

[macgoodnight]

The Pippin was ahead of its time. Microsoft jacked pippen's greatness. For example watch this youtube video and you will understand. Also, it is really really scary how this promo is like the iphone SDK opening speech. They should of called the Iphone Pippen 2. Poor Pippen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLf_uqhVA0k&feature=related

[dukebound85]

Apple's greatest mistake:
In my opinion, Apple's switch to Intel.
They should have stayed with PowerPC but still have the designs of the Intel Macs.

Could not Apple just increase the speed (over-clock) of the G4 laptops or even make them Dual-core? Would not that even help in any way?

What about the G5s? Could not Apple just severely under-clock them for the use in the laptops?

Because I do not want Apple to use almost the same hardware as PCs.

No, I just prefer to be "different" than the other guys.

Did any other PCs use PowerPC processors when Apple used PowerPC? I am afraid no.

Did you hear me? I said "different" not "better" or "worse".


wow you clearly have no understanding of processors and their designs yet you are quick to say the move to intel was the worst apple has ever done

why do you hate intel so much? seriously? they offer so much more than ibm was. were you not around when ppc updates were far and few between?

it is ALL about the os, not the hardware. as long as the hardware is quaity, i could care less if "pc's" use the same thing

did you hate apple when they used ppc, they shared the same screens, hd's, ram, optical drives, and various other compoents? yet only the processor defines the mac huh?


you need to have factual evidence and know what you are talking about rather than spout fanboy comments:rolleyes: I personally feel the switch to intel was the among the BEST things apple has ever done along with os x and the resurgance of apple with the imac

seriously some people...

i think the worst thing apple has ever done was make itself into a religion to some people (or would that be under things that annoy me the most lol)

[elppa]

What about the G5s? Could not Apple just severely under-clock them for the use in the laptops?

Maybe, but it would defeat the point because the performance would be rubbish!

[kabunaru]

did you hate apple when they used ppc, they shared the same screens, hd's, ram, optical drives, and various other compoents? yet only the processor defines the mac huh?


No, I did not and do not care any more now. I like all Macs, I learned my lesson now. ;)

[jpmittins]

wow you clearly have no understanding of processors and their designs yet you are quick to say the move to intel was the worst apple has ever done

why do you hate intel so much? seriously? they offer so much more than ibm was. were you not around when ppc updates were far and few between?

it is ALL about the os, not the hardware. as long as the hardware is quaity, i could care less if "pc's" use the same thing

did you hate apple when they used ppc, they shared the same screens, hd's, ram, optical drives, and various other compoents? yet only the processor defines the mac huh?


you need to have factual evidence and know what you are talking about rather than spout fanboy comments:rolleyes: I personally feel the switch to intel was the among the BEST things apple has ever done along with os x and the resurgance of apple with the imac

seriously some people...

i think the worst thing apple has ever done was make itself into a religion to some people (or would that be under things that annoy me the most lol)

Yes! I can't stand the fanboys, or how once some people switch to Mac, they're always like "just switched, never going back to the dark side, windoz sux, vista is the worst thing ever, lolz, :apple::apple::apple::apple::apple: FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! of course i have vista on my gaming box though, i couldn't live without my games..."

Grrr, fanboys...yes, one of Apple's worst mistakes was definitely getting to the point where people will defend them to the death without even thinking. Am I the only one that just wants to punch somebody when they hear a fanboy babble about Apple?
[/rant]

[IJ Reilly]

Am I the only one that just wants to punch somebody when they hear a fanboy babble about Apple?

Am I the only one who wants to punch the next person who trots out the "fanboy" insult every time they don't agree with someone's opinion?

[jpmittins]

Am I the only one who wants to punch the next person who trots out the "fanboy" insult every time they don't agree with someone's opinion?

When did I ever say that a fanboy was someone with whom I didn't agree? A fanboy is soemone who relentlessly defends a company/product even when statements to the contrary are directly in their face. I hate PC fanboys just as much as Apple fanboys, and just as much as I hate any fanboy (regardless of the company they support).

[iAlan]

Failures...

Pippin - maybe, but I think it was just not the right time and was a product Apple had to be willing to loose money on for a couple of years

Newton - yes, pulling the Newton was a bad decision - although the device was ahead of it's time it had the potential to grow a new market, much like the original iPod did and the iPhone is now doing to a degree as well

Cube - financially, yes - but the engineering behind the product is what has given us the iMac as we now see it, the mini, the MacBook Air

Productivity Suite / OpenDoc- Apple was way off in this regard, but understandable if not wanting to piss Microsoft off

[DigiCatRedux]

I don't know... the Newton never really went anywhere, even right out of the door- I think it was a good decision from Apple to pull the device.
Found an article here detailing the opinions of one of the original Newton Development Group members, Larry Tesler - and why he thinks it failed.
http://www.g4tv.com/techtvvault/features/25271/Why_the_Apple_Newton_Failed.html

Along with the Newton, we can't forget the failed eMate 300 - the Newton-based laptop, and probably one of the ugliest things to come out of Cupertino. Ever.

[IJ Reilly]

When did I ever say that a fanboy was someone with whom I didn't agree? A fanboy is soemone who relentlessly defends a company/product even when statements to the contrary are directly in their face. I hate PC fanboys just as much as Apple fanboys, and just as much as I hate any fanboy (regardless of the company they support).

But of course you get to decide who "relentlessly defends a company/product even when statements to the contrary are directly in their face," and therefore is deserving of an insult. That's the problem with relying on insults instead of arguments. Stick to the arguments, and insults won't be necessary.

[stanfordtechman]

return policy should be revised. 14 days is really absurd, even for unopened products cannot be returned after 2 weeks... everythings on everywhere could be returned w/in 30 days !! so mac should extend it to 30 days ~
yup baby~

[pawn3d]

Am I the only one who wants to punch the next person who trots out the "fanboy" insult every time they don't agree with someone's opinion?Probably.

Hands down, my Apple greatest mistake was...
THE MACBOOK

Why is it turning brown? Why does my CD drive not work? I think Click (http://www.theforum.com/showpost.php?p=2954368&postcount=1) nailed it on the head in one of his epic posts. :p

[MowingDevil]

Apple's biggest mistake and nothing else even come close was the Lisa.

Whats wrong w/ $10grand for 5mhz?!? ;)

On the bright side, at least it had protected memory.

[macfan881]

apples bigest mistake was Mac OSX in term comparing 10.1 with all the Features they added into 10.1 it should have been in the first relase and should have been free.

[jpmittins]

apples bigest mistake was Mac OSX in term comparing 10.1 with all the Features they added into 10.1 it should have been in the first relase and should have been free.

I'm sorry, but could you please explain? I thought 10.1 was a free upgrade to all that had 10.0. Sorry if I'm not all that knowledgeable about that time in Apple's history, I wasn't even 10 and my computer was running System 7.6 at that time.

[swingerofbirch]

Putting IGPs in the MacBook, Mac mini (and iMac for some time).

[macfan881]

I'm sorry, but could you please explain? I thought 10.1 was a free upgrade to all that had 10.0. Sorry if I'm not all that knowledgeable about that time in Apple's history, I wasn't even 10 and my computer was running System 7.6 at that time.
actaully my bad it was free to os X users but the featuers were the following

* Performance enhancements — Mac OS X v10.1 introduced large performance increases throughout the system.
* Easier CD and DVD burning — better support in Finder as well as iTunes
* DVD playback support — DVDs can be played in Apple DVD Player
* More printer support (200 printers supported out of the box) — One of the main complaints of version 10.0 users was the lack of printer drivers, and Apple attempted to remedy the situation by including more drivers, although many critics complained that there were still not enough.
* Faster 3D (OpenGL performs 20% faster) — The OpenGL drivers, and handling were vastly improved in this version of Mac OS X, which created a large performance gap for 3D elements in the interface, and 3D applications.
* Improved AppleScript — The scripting interface now allows scripting to be done to many more system components, such as the Printer Center, and Terminal, thus improving the customizability of the interface. As well, Apple introduced AppleScript Studio, which allows a user to create full AppleScript applications in a simple graphical interface.
* ColorSync 4.0, the color management system and API.
* Image Capture, for acquiring images from digital cameras and scanners.

[jpmittins]

actaully my bad it was free to os X users but the featuers were the following

* Performance enhancements — Mac OS X v10.1 introduced large performance increases throughout the system.
* Easier CD and DVD burning — better support in Finder as well as iTunes
* DVD playback support — DVDs can be played in Apple DVD Player
* More printer support (200 printers supported out of the box) — One of the main complaints of version 10.0 users was the lack of printer drivers, and Apple attempted to remedy the situation by including more drivers, although many critics complained that there were still not enough.
* Faster 3D (OpenGL performs 20% faster) — The OpenGL drivers, and handling were vastly improved in this version of Mac OS X, which created a large performance gap for 3D elements in the interface, and 3D applications.
* Improved AppleScript — The scripting interface now allows scripting to be done to many more system components, such as the Printer Center, and Terminal, thus improving the customizability of the interface. As well, Apple introduced AppleScript Studio, which allows a user to create full AppleScript applications in a simple graphical interface.
* ColorSync 4.0, the color management system and API.
* Image Capture, for acquiring images from digital cameras and scanners.

So you're saying that 10.1 was good except for the fact that it cost money for non-Mac users? I don't really get it; if an OS was free, how would the company make money?

[pawn3d]

Putting IGPs in the MacBook, Mac mini (and iMac for some time).
What's an IGP?
Does my MacBook 2.1 GHz core 2 duo have it?

[bartelby]

What's an IGP?
Does my MacBook 2.1 GHz core 2 duo have it?

Integrated Graphics Processor?

[chaosbunny]

Not making any great redesigns lately. In the last 5 years or something only the MacBook Air, the alu iMac (not too drastic, just the white iMac in silver basically) and the iBook -> MacBook (also not too much) appeared as mayor design changes. Mini looks the same like at first, Mac Pro looks the same like the PM G5 from 2003, MacBook Pro looks the same like the alu PowerBook G4 from 2003.

Sure I like the current designs, but I loved how every PowerMac G4 revision looked a little bit different, how the PowerBook went from the curved black G3 to the slim titanium G4 to the alu books relatively fast, how there was a cube, the G4 lamp iMac, the eMac, etc. etc.

Now with focus on the iPhone, the designs of the computers are somehow left behind.

And yes it doesn't matter how a computer looks if it works and yes I said the current designs are great blabla. I just think revisions were more "exciting" - I can't think of a better term atm - from 1999 – 2004 from a design point.

[mrfrosty]

wow you clearly have no understanding of processors and their designs yet you are quick to say the move to intel was the worst apple has ever done

why do you hate intel so much? seriously? they offer so much more than ibm was. were you not around when ppc updates were far and few between?

it is ALL about the os, not the hardware. as long as the hardware is quaity, i could care less if "pc's" use the same thing

did you hate apple when they used ppc, they shared the same screens, hd's, ram, optical drives, and various other compoents? yet only the processor defines the mac huh?

you need to have factual evidence and know what you are talking about rather than spout fanboy comments:rolleyes: I personally feel the switch to intel was the among the BEST things apple has ever done along with os x and the resurgance of apple with the imac

seriously some people...

i think the worst thing apple has ever done was make itself into a religion to some people (or would that be under things that annoy me the most lol)

Think outside of the box fella, moving to Intel COULD BE Apple's biggest mistake of all time...............They have opened themselves up to having clone machines again, we all know what happened last time...........OSX86 is very stable Apple can't use the old arguments about limited hardware options giving OS stability....they have shot themselves in the foot too many times with that one.

[IJ Reilly]

Think outside of the box fella, moving to Intel COULD BE Apple's biggest mistake of all time...............They have opened themselves up to having clone machines again, we all know what happened last time...........OSX86 is very stable Apple can't use the old arguments about limited hardware options giving OS stability....they have shot themselves in the foot too many times with that one.

Not really. Apple doesn't have to allow Mac clones unless they want to.

[MacSociology]

Yes! I can't stand the fanboys, or how once some people switch to Mac, they're always like "just switched, never going back to the dark side, windoz sux, vista is the worst thing ever, lolz, :apple::apple::apple::apple::apple: FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! of course i have vista on my gaming box though, i couldn't live without my games..."

Grrr, fanboys...yes, one of Apple's worst mistakes was definitely getting to the point where people will defend them to the death without even thinking. Am I the only one that just wants to punch somebody when they hear a fanboy babble about Apple?
[/rant]


I agree completely with this. But I would also have to say that this subculture helped me with my masters thesis about the Mac-culture.


And to just be myself I have to make the following suggestion:

Letting Steve back in? ;)

[jpmittins]

I agree completely with this. But I would also have to say that this subculture helped me with my masters thesis about the Mac-culture.


And to just be myself I have to make the following suggestion:

Letting Steve back in? ;)

What was the point of your paper? That sounds really interesting. And if you don't mind me asking, do you really think Jobs coming back was that bad or are you just saying that to be different? I don't care either way and would actually be interested in some people's reasons as to why Jobs coming back was the worst thing ever (if anyone actually thinks that).

[MacSociology]

Thesis was about subcultures oriented towards products. (And it didn't get me a job.)

And the Steve comment was meant to be ironic. Therefore the ;)

[jpmittins]

Thesis was about subcultures oriented towards products. (And it didn't get me a job.)

And the Steve comment was meant to be ironic. Therefore the ;)

That's cool, though is sucks you didn't get a job. And thanks for clearing up any confusion about the comment.

[iWaldo]

IMO, removing some neat features for iMovie '08. Luckily, they made up for this by making it so that it won't import iMovie 6 projects. :(

[Dybbuk]

Am I the only one who wants to punch the next person who trots out the "fanboy" insult every time they don't agree with someone's opinion?

But this is a legitimate problem within the Apple user community. Anyone who criticizes Apple is quickly berated by a large group of Apple apologists, and frankly it makes those of us who just want to enjoy our computers -- not be part of some marketing-influenced psuedo-social movement -- look pretty bad.

Reading around Engadget and other technology websites, the comments sections are always full of Apple fanboys bringing up Apple's products in completely unrelated stories just to talk about how great Apple is, yet this phenomenon is rare with other products or brands.

Apple has intentionally incubated this culture as well. Just look at the I'm a Mac, I'm a PC ads. They've actually managed to cultivate the scenario so that people feel that they are superior to others merely based on what computing platform they use. And because of this arrogance, this elitist attitude, there are many people that will never, ever consider using a Mac.

And that may be Apple's greatest mistake of all time.

[IJ Reilly]

If you stick to responding to what a person is actually arguing, insults are never necessary. Calling someone a "fanboy" or some other similar insult instead of addressing their argument, is simply engaging in an ad hominem form of debating.