Garageband is useless...

[Torajima]

without the ability to export songs as midi files and/or raw aif files.

Yes, I know this app is geared to novices, but to what end? You can't actually compose with it, as anything you create with it can't be used outside of Garageband and iTunes.

At best, the app is a tutorial for working with digital music, but I think even novices are going to outgrow it's limitations rather quickly.

[C14ru5]

Where does it say that you can't export to AIFF?

I believe that, unless Garage Band has a specific preference setting for this, Garage Band would use the same export setting that iTunes uses as import setting. In other words, it should be no problem to export to AIFF. Even SoundTrack does such a thing, and SoundTrack is mainly a video app and not an audio app. If you are talking about multichannel mixdown: Just export two and two tracks at a time, muting the other tracks along the way.

[Torajima]

Originally posted by C14ru5
Where does it say that you can't export to MIDI or AIFF?


The initial reviews I've read have said no import or export to MIDI or AIFF.

It's a shame too, as I was hoping to use Garageband as a musical scratchpad and import the data into a Pro App for more extensive editing later.

[Torajima]

It does look like you can export an entire song (but not individual tracks) as an aif.

Unfortunately, this won't help me much... as a keyboard player, I deal almost exclusively with midi. I need to be able to import/export midi. It's pretty silly that Apple left this out...

[Mr. Anderson]

One thing to consider is that this is the first version of the software. It will evolve over time, especially with feedback from the users. I wouldn't go bashing something you haven't used yourself yet, just wait and see.

Also, food for thought - GarageBand is effectively an iApp. There's no reason not to believe that Apple would have in the works a Pro level version in the works or on the way soon. I'm a little optimistic here - it just seems that to go to all the work to make an App like GarageBand and give it limits or restriction to what you can do only indicates that a more expensive version, say StudioBand is waiting in the wings for all interested to purchase at a nice price.

D

[edesignuk]

Maybe, but this is a 1st gen app, there will probably be lots of bugs and things that have been left out which people will notice over time. Give it a chance, it's not even officially out yet (is it? 16th I thought?).

edit: damn u mr. anderson, u beat me to the whole 1st gen thing :mad: :p

[Mr. Anderson]

edesignuk - Jinx!

haha, damn funny when that happens :D

D

[Trekkie]

Yeah I know I always have said I need to export to MIDI.

Those are those little files that you used to play on your computer back in 1990 or so that made it sort of sound like a musical instrument and that you annoy people by having it play them when they load websites right?

:rolleyes:

Buy Soundtrack if you want something that makes AIFF files. Garageband is for the rest of us that want to dink around, make soundtracks for our home movies, make soundtracks for our iPhoto slide shows, and burn them to DVDs.

They're also for those of us that plan on using it to introduce their children to music since they've not bought a Piano yet.

Not to mention there are more things than garageband and iTunes that play AAC files.

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Mr. Anderson
One thing to consider is that this is the first version of the software. It will evolve over time, especially with feedback from the users. I wouldn't go bashing something you haven't used yourself yet, just wait and see.

Also, food for thought - GarageBand is effectively an iApp. There's no reason not to believe that Apple would have in the works a Pro level version in the works or on the way soon. I'm a little optimistic here - it just seems that to go to all the work to make an App like GarageBand and give it limits or restriction to what you can do only indicates that a more expensive version, say StudioBand is waiting in the wings for all interested to purchase at a nice price.

D

Well, Apple sorta does have a prolevel dgital audio workspace called Logic. With the $230 logic big box, you can do EVERYTHING including exporting to pro-tools files for mixdown and what not.

If you don't like Garage Band, go out and buy Reason and Logic. Not that much cash for two TRUE pro apps!

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
Well, Apple sorta does have a prolevel dgital audio workspace called Logic.

Cool, didn't realize that Moxie - thanks.

Uh, pink eh? Figured you more for black...;)

D

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Mr. Anderson
Cool, didn't realize that Moxie - thanks.

Uh, pink eh? Figured you more for black...;)

D

Yea. I'm actually more for white. I just couldn't resist a avatar of the iPod Mini that looks like it would cure your stomach ailment.

iPepto.... all the way

btw:

http://www.apple.com/software/pro/logic/

It's the shizz....

[OneDeadPixel]

I think calling Garageband useless is harsh. Maybe it's not useful to YOU but there are plenty of OTHER people who will get a lot of use out of it.

Also, I know for a fact that Apple is working on a Pro Audio App. Think of Garageband as "iMovie for making and recording music". The "Final Cut for making and recording music" is on its way and that's probably what you're looking for... unless you're just another "Forum Bitch" that likes to complain about everything.

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by OneDeadPixel
I think calling Garageband useless is harsh. Maybe it's not useful to YOU but there are plenty of OTHER people who will get a lot of use out of it.

Also, I know for a fact that Apple is working on a Pro Audio App. Think of Garageband as "iMovie for making and recording music". The "Final Cut for making and recording music" is on its way and that's probably what you're looking for... unless you're just another "Forum Bitch" that likes to complain about everything.

I know for a fact you're wrong about apple working on a pro-audio app—unless you're talking about Logic. :)

Audio people are more resistent to change than deisgners. The only way Apple can barge in on that niché is how they did it—by buying Logic.

[OneDeadPixel]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
I know for a fact you're wrong about apple working on a pro-audio app—unless you're talking about Logic. :)

Audio people are more resistent to change than deisgners. The only way Apple can barge in on that niché is how they did it—by buying Logic.

Maybe it's based on Logic, but I didn't ask. I was told that it will blow away Pro Tools and cost under $1000.

[tjwett]

Originally posted by Mr. Anderson
One thing to consider is that this is the first version of the software. It will evolve over time, especially with feedback from the users. I wouldn't go bashing something you haven't used yourself yet, just wait and see.

Also, food for thought - GarageBand is effectively an iApp. There's no reason not to believe that Apple would have in the works a Pro level version in the works or on the way soon. I'm a little optimistic here - it just seems that to go to all the work to make an App like GarageBand and give it limits or restriction to what you can do only indicates that a more expensive version, say StudioBand is waiting in the wings for all interested to purchase at a nice price.

D

Pro version of GarageBand?!?!? Have you all gone mad? Why can't anyone grasp the concept that LOGIC is the next step up form GarageBand. Apple borrowed a little functionality and technology from Logic and put together GarageBand with it. It is a toy for playing with at home. It is not for doing real work with. That is, unless you plan to release an album of AAC quality tunes that are built around a bunch of bundled loops and synth presets.

[Ensoniq]

I've seen this posted on a lot of other sites...the fact that GarageBand can't do <insert feature here> that it means it "sucks".

I'm a musician who has been playing keyboards for over 25 years now. I am not a pro, I play simply for my own enjoyment. But I do write music, having composed my first song at age 7.

But as into my Mac as I am, I have actually NEVER used my keyboards with a computer before. It always seemed like the software was more complicated than needed, so I settled for my synth's built-in sequencer and drums and kept it simple. Nothing I'd ever seen really got me "worked up".

After seeing GarageBand, I'm dying to get it and hook up my synth to the Mac. Maybe there is better software with more features available already, but nothing that ever got my atttention. GarageBand got me EXCITED...and these forums prove that I am not alone. And for $49, it's going to be a big hit with musicians of all skill levels.

Some of what GarageBand 1.0 is missing will be added to 2.0 ... other features will remain missing on purpose so Apple doesn't kill SoundTrack and Logic sales. That is how it's always been for the iApps with ProApp counterparts.

iMovie and Final Cut Express aren't "useless" just because Final Cut 4 has more features. The same applies to the GarageBand/SoundTrack/Logic trio. Choose the software that works best for you, and so will the rest of us. :)

[CmdrLaForge]

Originally posted by Ensoniq
I've seen this posted on a lot of other sites...the fact that GarageBand can't do <insert feature here> that it means it "sucks".

I'm a musician who has been playing keyboards for over 25 years now. I am not a pro, I play simply for my own enjoyment. But I do write music, having composed my first song at age 7.

But as into my Mac as I am, I have actually NEVER used my keyboards with a computer before. It always seemed like the software was more complicated than needed, so I settled for my synth's built-in sequencer and drums and kept it simple. Nothing I'd ever seen really got me "worked up".

After seeing GarageBand, I'm dying to get it and hook up my synth to the Mac. Maybe there is better software with more features available already, but nothing that ever got my atttention. GarageBand got me EXCITED...and these forums prove that I am not alone. And for $49, it's going to be a big hit with musicians of all skill levels.

Some of what GarageBand 1.0 is missing will be added to 2.0 ... other features will remain missing on purpose so Apple doesn't kill SoundTrack and Logic sales. That is how it's always been for the iApps with ProApp counterparts.

iMovie and Final Cut Express aren't "useless" just because Final Cut 4 has more features. The same applies to the GarageBand/SoundTrack/Logic trio. Choose the software that works best for you, and so will the rest of us. :)

Even so I am playing guitar and cannot more agree. For me GB really looks like the App I have been waiting for. I really cannot understand why there is so much complaing about a great App at a even much greater price. If you need more then get it ! Buy Logic Audio 6 ! Or Digital Performer or whatever suits your needs
Cheers

[tjwett]

Originally posted by Ensoniq
...

i really have no response to your post, just that your name is Ensoniq. are you a fan of the old Ensoniq keyboards and samplers? not a day goes by that i don't miss my trusty ASR-10, EPS, and ASR X Pro. that was one of the best companies of the era. shame e-mu bought them and destroyed them.:(

[Torajima]

Originally posted by Ensoniq

iMovie and Final Cut Express aren't "useless" just because Final Cut 4 has more features. The same applies to the GarageBand/SoundTrack/Logic trio. Choose the software that works best for you, and so will the rest of us. :)

The iMovie and FCE comparison simply doesn't hold water. I can start a project in iMovie and finish it in Final Cut Express or any other "Pro" video app.

But once you've created something in Garageband, that's it. You're done. Because, unlike iMovie, YOU CAN NOT EXPORT GARAGEBAND PROJECTS TO OTHER APPLICATIONS.

The ability to import and export midi and audio tracks is a rather stupid omission, even for an application aimed at "novices".

[Wonder Boy]

Originally posted by Ensoniq
Choose the software that works best for you, and so will the rest of us. :)

or own only g3's and be forced to use the only one that works!

[rueyeet]

Originally posted by tjwett
[GarageBand] is a toy for playing with at home. It is not for doing real work with. That is, unless you plan to release an album of AAC quality tunes that are built around a bunch of bundled loops and synth presets. Well, why not? I've heard more than one electronic-based band that sounds pretty much like that's all they're doing. I've really begun to suspect that a lot of supposedly "pro" level audio creation these days relies more on software proficiency than musical talent, anyway.

from the Melodic Alchemy of Trent Reznor at apple.com
I made Pretty Hate Machine using a Mac Plus, an Emax keyboard and a Mini Moog.

If Trent could kick off Nine Inch Nails with so little kit, what may a truly talented person be able to do even with something relatively limited as GarageBand? So it's not really pro-level, it DOES bring some degree of music creation tools within the reach of the ordinary user....and to me, pro vs bogus should be defined by results, not equipment.

If a rank amateur can put something together that sounds even halfway professional with something like GarageBand, then how "pro" are the pros?

But it all remains to be seen...what with the app not actually, y'know, being OUT yet and stuff. :rolleyes:

[jfg@forum]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by OneDeadPixel
[B]I think calling Garageband useless is harsh. Maybe it's not useful to YOU but there are plenty of OTHER people who will get a lot of use out of it.

Garageband's simplicity is also its strength. That is why is would be perfect for testing ideas for a composition. But it is useless for this without the midi export to take the "song" to the next level with Logic.

I am not asking Apple to turn GB into a pro app; just let me use a pro app with it.

[Torajima]

Originally posted by jfg@forum
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OneDeadPixel
[B]
Garageband's simplicity is also its strength. That is why is would be perfect for testing ideas for a composition. But it is useless for this without the midi export to take the "song" to the next level with Logic.

I am not asking Apple to turn GB into a pro app; just let me use a pro app with it.

Exactly! That's all I'm saying.

I think a lot of musicians would like to use it as a musical scratchpad, and export it to a more professional app when needed.

I wonder... will Garageband be scriptable? Maybe someone can write a script that exports the midi data...

[coolsoldier]

OK, I've heard that GB files work in iTunes... if this is the case, wouldn't iTunes "Convert to AIFF..." feature take care of this?

Edit: Also, iMovie can import (and thus with a little work convert) anything you can have in your iTunes library.

[jfg@forum]

Perhaps we need to talk Apple's language - money. Give us a GarageBand that can export to Logic and you will sell more versions of Logic.

[DavisBAnimal]

I think all this debate about GarageBand is real silly for an app that's still a good 4 or 5 days away from release. How can anyone know it's utility if no one has used it yet?

That being said, from the looks of it, this isn't a toy, this doesn't have to be just a sketch pad, and I'm going to tell you all right now that, come this Friday, I will begin work on my upcoming album, made entirely through GarageBand, nothing else, and set to drop, oh, say February 17th - and it is going to be HUGE. That will show all you GarageBand nay-sayers!

I've been playing music, writing songs, for a good 10 years or so - and have for the past few been really interested in getting into digital audio. But, to be honest with you - the digital audio world has to be the most uselessly complicated, geek-techy, computer-dorkish world of software out there. I couldn't decide between Logic Audio Gold, Silver, Red, Blue, Brown, Green, Orange, with support for VST, AU, MIDI, LOL, ROTFLMAO, Virtual Instruments, Banana Muffin ports, DigiDesign MOTU, M-Audio 6 port 96 khz / 128 megawatts, 1/8 coaxil with RST GHTEAGHHE at 14 hominid humunculous, garbage garbage garbage. It's ridiculous - I can't for a moment figure this stuff out without a masters degree in computer jargon. I play the damn guitar and want to record some of it, sing over it, and just ROCK OUT. I don't want to become certified in the linguistics of the ubergeeks before I'm able to do this.

GarageBane seems to strike a nice balance for those of us who want a simple program to record our breathtaking works of staggering musical genius.

Just wait for my album to drop.

Davis

[baby duck monge]

Originally posted by DavisBAnimal

I've been playing music, writing songs, for a good 10 years or so - and have for the past few been really interested in getting into digital audio. But, to be honest with you - the digital audio world has to be the most uselessly complicated, geek-techy, computer-dorkish world of software out there. I couldn't decide between Logic Audio Gold, Silver, Red, Blue, Brown, Green, Orange, with support for VST, AU, MIDI, LOL, ROTFLMAO, Virtual Instruments, Banana Muffin ports, DigiDesign MOTU, M-Audio 6 port 96 khz / 128 megawatts, 1/8 coaxil with RST GHTEAGHHE at 14 hominid humunculous, garbage garbage garbage. It's ridiculous - I can't for a moment figure this stuff out without a masters degree in computer jargon. I play the damn guitar and want to record some of it, sing over it, and just ROCK OUT. I don't want to become certified in the linguistics of the ubergeeks before I'm able to do this.


this is one of the funniest things i have read on these boards in quite some time. thank you.

[Audacity Works]

Originally posted by Torajima YOU CAN NOT EXPORT GARAGEBAND PROJECTS TO OTHER APPLICATIONS.

The ability to import and export midi and audio tracks is a rather stupid omission, even for an application aimed at "novices".Huh? The only way iTunes can open a Garage Band song is if it's first mixed down as an AIFF file. Which means you can then open that file within any audio app you choose. Which means the audio side is completely exportable. If you want to be able to automatically open a GarageBand song into Logic, complete with sample-accurate playlist, loop info, mixer settings, and such, then dang... No other piece of software can do that either, unless you get into OMF import/export which is not only extrememly buggy, but is already beginning to lose steam. Even if you want to try OMF, Logic Platinum ($650), Digital Performer ($550), or ProTools LE with the DVToolkit utility ($399 MBox + $799) are the only ones that support it.

You could do what everyone else does now-- Mix down the song a track at a time (making sure that each file starts at the beginning of the song and goes all the way though) and then import those files into any other multitrack app.

It'd be pretty cool if Apple made a playlist converter for Logic, but it'd be extremely complicated to accomplish, and probably not worth it, unless a bunch of users demand it.

As for MIDI export, you forget. Garage Band doesn't do MIDI. It sequences its internal softsynths, yes, but if you were to export that MIDI data into, say, Logic, the sounds wouldn't be there, since MIDI doesn't contain audio information. You'd have to reselect different softsynths, which would never sound exactly the same.

Or rather, if you have Logic, why use GarageBand at all? It's easier to use, but it's certainly not faster to get around.

Or... you could simply download the Beta of Jack Tools (http://www.jackosx.com/) and route the output of Garage Band directly into Logic. Problem solved.:)

[Trekkie]

Also I've dug around and listened to / watched the Keynote and I've noticed they always skip over the 'import' section of the application.

I really think the original thread poster has blown this all out of proportion.

I don't know what machine Steve used during his keynote, but even a dual G5 2.0GHz probably can't compress an AAC as fast as it did there on the screen (I woudlnt' know, I still have a lowly 867MHz rev A Powerbook 12") and I'd bet it was AIFF or something very easy to send out.

That and I think a lot of folks like to B*tch for the sake of B*tching in this forum. I myself am very excited after watching the John Meyer demonstration.

And I just wanted to chime in with 'hear hear' to the folks pointing out that SIMPLICITY is the key. I'm amazed at the number of folks that fall for the 'bells and whistels' that people tack onto an object or the versionitis that accompanies it.

A musician - no matter if they bang a drum or play a deck of synthesized keyboards - don't want something they have to spend 20 min setting up and if they hose it have to start over, they want what was demoed. Drag - drop, drag - drop, drag - drop, and then jam for 6 hours.

[martin]

News Flash: Consumer refuses to buy new software doesn't do exactly what he wants.

Yaaaaaaaaaawn.

Here's what to do: buy your pro app. Use it. Be happy.

FFS, do you hear Photoshop users bitching that MS Paint is useless because it doesn't export layered PSD files.

Jeez Louise!

[Ensoniq]

Originally posted by tjwett
i really have no response to your post, just that your name is Ensoniq. are you a fan of the old Ensoniq keyboards and samplers? not a day goes by that i don't miss my trusty ASR-10, EPS, and ASR X Pro. that was one of the best companies of the era. shame e-mu bought them and destroyed them.:(

Yep...that is where my online name comes from. I still own an Ensoniq VFX-SD synth/sequencing system. The best machine of its kind when I bought it 10+ years ago. But now...GarageBand with a MIDI keyboard will blow it away.

Back to topic, we'll see some real reviews and analysis of GarageBand after it's actually been released and is in customer's hands. Until then, we're only guessing on the full capabilities of the program.

[martin]

And watch me and my mad eleet GarageBand skillz create beautiful muzic. Or should that be muzak :D

[ChrisH3677]

DavisBAnimal and Trekkie - spot on

Wayyyyy back in the late 80's when I Was most into music, I used the MIDI sequencing app Steinberg 24 (which evolved into Cubase) on an Atari ST and had no trouble coming to grips with it.

But somewhere things changed. Somewhere someone realised these things were too easy.

I've tried Fruity Loops, Acid, Cubase etc etc etc in the last four or five years as I've attempted to get back into some music making.

But they've confused the ****** out of me. And consequently discouraged me. Remember - I work in computers so usually understand software pretty quickly. Not so music apps. As Davis highlighted - to learn, they're the apps from hell.

My expectation of GB (and from watching the demos and reading everything AND knowing that Apple is excellent at making user-friendly software) I expect GarageBand to be a pleasure to use and that I will be able to rediscover the enjoyment I had in making music as I did with Steinberg.

And hopefully, GB, will help me learn the concepts of modern digital music production so that I can revisit the high end apps and actually understand them.

[pgwalsh]

Originally posted by tjwett
i really have no response to your post, just that your name is Ensoniq. are you a fan of the old Ensoniq keyboards and samplers? not a day goes by that i don't miss my trusty ASR-10, EPS, and ASR X Pro. that was one of the best companies of the era. shame e-mu bought them and destroyed them.:( I loved my TS-10.. was sad the day I sold it.

[kanker]

Originally posted by Torajima
I think a lot of musicians would like to use it as a musical scratchpad, and export it to a more professional app when needed.I agree wholeheartedly I have Logic Gold 6.3.1 and Reason 2.5, and to be honest, I'm kinda geeked about getting GB. You can never have too many options, and for a couple of bucks, GB looks like a pretty cool option to have for any pro, much less an amature. GB will give me a new library of samples to work with, some I'm sure I'll even end up using live on gigs; it will give me a really easy way to teach my kid a thing or two about music and composition; and for your every day musician who may not be too heavy into pro level apps (intimidated or just not doing anything with huge audio needs), or your guy who just doesn't have the bread to pony up $500-1000 for software and interfaces, GB will provide a relatively intuitive tool to get ideas out. The one thing that would make it an invaluable tool for guys without the extra bread to get something more complex is if it would incorporate some kind of simple notation ability- don't know if it has that or not (probably not), but that would be cool. Chill out with the GB sucks stuff- not to lay out a bunch of hyperbole, but GB seems to be a pretty powerful app that can have a major impact not only on pros and hobbyists, but on future generations of kids as an introduction to music, composition, production, engineering....

[tjwett]

Originally posted by DavisBAnimal
...I'm going to tell you all right now that, come this Friday, I will begin work on my upcoming album, made entirely through GarageBand, nothing else, and set to drop, oh, say February 17th - and it is going to be HUGE...

:rolleyes:

[kanker]

Originally posted by DavisBAnimal
I can't for a moment figure this stuff out without a masters degree in computer jargon. I play the damn guitar Ahhhh.....No more explanation needed.;)

[Torajima]

Originally posted by Audacity Works

As for MIDI export, you forget. Garage Band doesn't do MIDI. It sequences its internal softsynths, yes, but if you were to export that MIDI data into, say, Logic, the sounds wouldn't be there, since MIDI doesn't contain audio information. You'd have to reselect different softsynths, which would never sound exactly the same.


Well, contrary to early reports, Garageband apparently DOES do midi... the piano roll editor should be a dead giveaway. Software synths are recorded with midi. What it does not do, is allow you to use external synths via midi.

And I'm well aware of the strengths and limitations of midi. I don't expect exported midi to sound exactly the same... I wouldn't want it to. I suspect I've got access to better sounding hardware and software synths than come bundled with Garageband.


Or rather, if you have Logic, why use GarageBand at all? It's easier to use, but it's certainly not faster to get around.


Because Pro Audio software, while powerful, tends to be counterproductive to the creative process. When I have an idea for a new song, I don't want to spend 20 minutes setting everything up first. I want to play, I want to layer additional tracks, and I want to fix my mistakes (or keep 'em, if they turn out better than what I originally planned). I want to do this as quickly as possible, while I'm still inspired... I'll worry about effects and mixing and all that other garbage later.

Garageband would be ideal to use as this kind of scratchpad, but without some kind of midi import and export, it is useless TO MY NEEDS. Your mileage may vary...

[Torajima]

Originally posted by martin
News Flash: Consumer refuses to buy new software doesn't do exactly what he wants.


Actually, I'll probably buy it this weekend, as I don't really have a choice. It's bundled with the new versions of iMovie and iDVD, which I need since the last versions of both were buggy as hell.


Here's what to do: buy your pro app. Use it. Be happy.


Already own a pro audio app. Own a pro video app too, but I still use iMovie when I need to finish a simple project quickly.


FFS, do you hear Photoshop users bitching that MS Paint is useless because it doesn't export layered PSD files.


Bad comparison. Photoshop opens MS Paint files just fine. And yes, MS Paint *would* be useless if it only saved files in a proprietary format that no other graphics app could use.

I don't expect Garageband to export Logic or Digital Performer project files. Just midi, the most common file format that all sequencers use.

Midi import would be nice too... without it, there is no way to play my previously written songs in Garageband.

[Trekkie]

Originally posted by Torajima
Actually, I'll probably buy it this weekend, as I don't really have a choice. It's bundled with the new versions of iMovie and iDVD, which I need since the last versions of both were buggy as hell.

What on earth do you do with iMovie and iDVD that is buggy as hell? I edit, add captions, transitions, sound effects, music and add chapters with 0 problems with iMovie. Then when I burn them to iDVD I pick my themes, lay out my titles, add some photos and burn away.

iMovie 2.0 did crash on me on occasion loosing all the detail i'd done for the little film but never have I had a problem with the newer versions. Speed improvements are what has me interested in the newer versions.

[ChrisH3677]

Torajima

but? even if GB could export your keyboard tracks in midi, what about the loops and your own recorded audio such as guitars? Are the loops full samples? or midi sequences?

it's not possible in any app to export audio perfectly to midi - is it? (i've seen apps that try but do a pretty ordinary job)

and if it was possible to convert audio to midi - wouldn't Logic have an import feature that did it anyways? It would mean dumping one track at a time from GB to a format that Logic could import.

So maybe it's Logic (or whatever highend app you use) that has the problem.

edit: And if the loops are midi sequences, is it possible to send them to a midi-out channel? And then maybe you could capture them back.

edit: Just checked the website. The loops display as waveforms so are almost certainly audio. (Whereas as software instruments display as piano roll and so are sequences). So again - does Logic do audio to midi conversion? If not, why should GB?

[clcnyc]

I have to admit I was really (and still am, although slightly less now after reading these posts) excited when I heard about Garage Band. My question is: can a singer benefit from this with just a keyboard?

[rt_brained]

Originally posted by DavisBAnimal
...Banana Muffin ports... Oh my freakin' god, I am sooo getting that software.

[crazytom]

Let's think about this from the other side. If MIDI export were available, how easy would it be for your average user? Let's see, they'd have to have a MIDI out device, they'd have to have separate speakers for their keyboard---or a mixer so all sounds were coming from the same place, the samples would be worthless because each keyboard has different sounds, synch would be an issue, they'd have to properly set up their keyboard to work with MIDI (all the correct sounds in the correct banks, etc), and probably a bunch of other things that I'm leaving out. To your average user, MIDI is a nightmare...

Apple did the right thing. They made it simple. And, is the price right? $10 per app? Sure we got some of them for free before, but come on...there's screensavers that cost more than that and don't promise to be anywhere near as fun.

[Mantat]

Unless I am mistaken, iMovie doesnt export to FCE. Its the other way around, FCE IMPORT from iMovie. The same thing could be done by logic importing GB files.

You are so complaining for nothing! There is an evolution possible from GB even tho the target audience is totaly different.

Thats one thing I notice about musician. For some, the only way to be happy is to hear the 'perfect sound' while for the others, the joy of music is when they play.

GB is for the later group, it let you play with the music and do stuff you never thought you would be interested into.

Anyways, because of GB, I went to my parents house and took back my old electric guitar...

[pgwalsh]

Originally posted by Torajima
Well, contrary to early reports, Garageband apparently DOES do midi... the piano roll editor should be a dead giveaway. Software synths are recorded with midi. What it does not do, is allow you to use external synths via midi.

And I'm well aware of the strengths and limitations of midi. I don't expect exported midi to sound exactly the same... I wouldn't want it to. I suspect I've got access to better sounding hardware and software synths than come bundled with Garageband.

Because Pro Audio software, while powerful, tends to be counterproductive to the creative process. When I have an idea for a new song, I don't want to spend 20 minutes setting everything up first. I want to play, I want to layer additional tracks, and I want to fix my mistakes (or keep 'em, if they turn out better than what I originally planned). I want to do this as quickly as possible, while I'm still inspired... I'll worry about effects and mixing and all that other garbage later.

Garageband would be ideal to use as this kind of scratchpad, but without some kind of midi import and export, it is useless TO MY NEEDS. Your mileage may vary... Everything you said is so right on, I couldn't agree more. You're 3rd is exactly how I feel.

I've almost gone to complete virtual instruments because of the irritation of exernal gear communicating with software. It was so much easier when I did everything on my TS-10 Workstation, but now softsynths are the future for me. No more external gear except for my new Edirol PCR-50... Must have knobs and sliders.

[Torajima]

Originally posted by ChrisH3677
Torajima

but? even if GB could export your keyboard tracks in midi, what about the loops and your own recorded audio such as guitars? Are the loops full samples? or midi sequences?



In a perfect world, Garageband could export individual tracks whether midi sequences or aif loops.

[Torajima]

Originally posted by Mantat
Unless I am mistaken, iMovie doesnt export to FCE. Its the other way around, FCE IMPORT from iMovie. The same thing could be done by logic importing GB files.


When you save a project in iMovie, it creates a quicktime compatible file that can be imported to Final Cut, Quicktime Pro, or any other video application.

You can also choose to export it to various video formats.

[Torajima]

Originally posted by crazytom
Let's think about this from the other side. If MIDI export were available, how easy would it be for your average user? Let's see, they'd have to have a MIDI out device, they'd have to have separate speakers for their keyboard---or a mixer so all sounds were coming from the same place, the samples would be worthless because each keyboard has different sounds, synch would be an issue, they'd have to properly set up their keyboard to work with MIDI (all the correct sounds in the correct banks, etc), and probably a bunch of other things that I'm leaving out. To your average user, MIDI is a nightmare...


I don't think you understand just what it is I'm asking for. I'm not asking to control external midi devices with Garageband. I just want to be able to save (export) and open (import) plain old midi sequences. This does NOT require a midi out device, mixer, or seperate speakers. And people who don't need it never have to use it.

[crazytom]

Originally posted by Torajima
I don't think you understand just what it is I'm asking for. I'm not asking to control external midi devices with Garageband. I just want to be able to save (export) and open (import) plain old midi sequences. This does NOT require a midi out device, mixer, or seperate speakers. And people who don't need it never have to use it.

I see---my bad. On the bright side, there's nothing saying that you can't do that at this point. Since you can drag and drop AIFF, WAV, and MP3 from the Finder, I don't see any reason it can't go the other way: Take iPhoto for example, you can drag a picture from iPhoto to your desktop without going through a bunch of export options. I'd assume that Apple would use MIDI spec for their MIDI files and I'd assume that chances are good that you'll be able to do that (drag and drop MIDI).

Three more days!

[martin]

Originally posted by Torajima
I don't think you understand just what it is I'm asking for. I'm not asking to control external midi devices with Garageband. I just want to be able to save (export) and open (import) plain old midi sequences. This does NOT require a midi out device, mixer, or seperate speakers. And people who don't need it never have to use it.

Garage Band 2.0?

It may happen. In the meantime, enjoy iLife4 :)

[ipoddin]

Originally posted by Mr. Anderson
One thing to consider is that this is the first version of the software. It will evolve over time, especially with feedback from the users. I wouldn't go bashing something you haven't used yourself yet, just wait and see.


Yeah, and at $50 an upgrade, by the time GB finally does everything you want, you will have invested the same amount of money that pro level software costs now! ;)

[pgwalsh]

Originally posted by ipoddin
Yeah, and at $50 an upgrade, by the time GB finally does everything you want, you will have invested the same amount of money that pro level software costs now! ;) One of the reasons I haven't update to Panther.. Jaguar works, so why bother... Features aren't that enticing.

[martin]

Originally posted by ipoddin
Yeah, and at $50 an upgrade, by the time GB finally does everything you want, you will have invested the same amount of money that pro level software costs now! ;)

But by the time it gets there, hopefully it will have dragged me up to some sort of proficiency. Or at least people won't hate what I make.

I've just realised that you can make minor stuff ups in videos and people watching won't care too much as long as the overall idea works, but screw up a music piece and people will put their hands over their ears and never listen again.

Hmm, this could be tough.

[g30ffr3y]

One of the reasons I haven't update to Panther.. Jaguar works, so why bother... Features aren't that enticing.


especially if youre into making music... expose is THE feature to upgrade to panther for... its so nice not having to click around between mix windows, softsynths, this that and the other thing... ya know... well it always pissed me off and i cant afford dual 23 cinema displays...

[Torajima]

Originally posted by pgwalsh
One of the reasons I haven't update to Panther.. Jaguar works, so why bother... Features aren't that enticing.

If you're a power user, Expose alone is worth the cost of the upgrade.

The ability to run X11 Unix apps is another plus... I'm currently trying out OpenOffice and Gimp, and if they meet my needs Panther will have saved me over $1000 in software (no Microsoft Office or Photoshop for me).

Heh, anyone know of a free X11 Pagemaker and Illustrator replacement?
:)

[ChrisH3677]

Originally posted by Torajima
I don't think you understand just what it is I'm asking for. I'm not asking to control external midi devices with Garageband. I just want to be able to save (export) and open (import) plain old midi sequences. This does NOT require a midi out device, mixer, or seperate speakers. And people who don't need it never have to use it.

You're right. I don't understand.

What exactly do you want to export to midi?

a) The whole song
b) Sequence tracks (Software instruments)
c) Audio tracks (inbuilt loops)
d) Audio tracks (recorded - eg guitar)

If anything, I would expect only (b) to be available as audio to midi conversions would/should only be in high end apps.

Maybe you can copy and paste the sequence tracks to other apps?

But if it is the audio tracks you want to convert to midi, i think it is quite a cheek to expect GB to do something your highend apps obviously can't do (import audio and convert to midi) or else you wouldn't be expecting GB to do it.

If it is only the sequence tracks you want... why? why not record them in you highend app in the first place? Why would you only want part of the song?

[Torajima]

Originally posted by ChrisH3677
You're right. I don't understand.

What exactly do you want to export to midi?

a) The whole song
b) Sequence tracks (Software instruments)
c) Audio tracks (inbuilt loops)
d) Audio tracks (recorded - eg guitar)



B. Sequence tracks, since they are already midi.

But it would be nice to be able to export individual tracks regardless (audio tracks as aif, sequences as midi).


If it is only the sequence tracks you want... why? why not record them in you highend app in the first place? Why would you only want part of the song?

Already covered why I don't want to begin with highend apps... IMO, they tend to be counterproductive to the creative process.

And why would I only want to save part of the song? Well, as a synth player, the midi sequences are the most important part of the song to me. And, in my experience, a complex midi sequence is far more difficult to duplicate from memory than a few guitar chords or a drum loop.

[martin]

Now I get it. However I think it would be safe to say that GB is designed as an end-to-end app. It was never conceived to be a link in the chain. At most, it's meant to work with the other iLife apps.

The reason iMovie and FCE/FCP can work with each other is because they all speak Quicktime. Maybe if Apple's sound engineers thought in the same way as their video/multimedia engineers, you would have your wish.

In time, perhaps. After all we are up to QT6 and it's taken a decade. Maybe by 2014 you'll be using GB 9.0 and all will be well.

[ChrisH3677]

Torajima, Ah! Ok thanks.

I reckon if it's not already there, copy and paste of the sequence tracks to other apps will be out before version 2 and that export the sequence tracks to midi would appear in version 2.0

[Seion]

I know this isn't a very intuitive way of doing it, but here's an idea:

GarageBand of course does the SoftSynth instruments with MIDI. This is obvious by the way it's edited and recorded and the fact that it uses MIDI input to control the Software Instruments.

This means that it has to save the MIDI files for each MIDI track somewhere, and knowing Apple, it'll be buried deep within the GarageBand save file, which'll really be a package that you can browse around in.

So, technically, one could dig around and find the MIDI files and drag 'em out using the Finder and the "Show Package Contents" option.

The only stumbling block here would be if Apple did not save the MIDI tracks in standard format... Doubt it, but it's possible.

So this could be a way to export the MIDI tracks. I know it's not as easy and a simple MIDI export option would be, and it totally doesn't serve as an excuse, but if push comes to shove, I'm sure you could do it to get your precious MIDI tracks out of GarageBand.

[ChrisH3677]

hey seion - great thinking!!! :D

[jfg@forum]

Maybe some smart person can make a hack to export the midi from the GB data file?

[IndyGopher]

Originally posted by tjwett
It is a toy for playing with at home. It is not for doing real work with. That is, unless you plan to release an album of AAC quality tunes that are built around a bunch of bundled loops and synth presets.

Have you actually heard Top-40 radio in the last 10 years?

[Seion]

Originally posted by ChrisH3677
hey seion - great thinking!!! :D

*shrugs* I just followed Apple's tendencies to make packages and keep individual files within them.

Originally posted by jfg@forum
Maybe some smart person can make a hack to export the midi from the GB data file?

Hrm, once the save package is examined, I don't believe it'd be very hard to make an Applescript that will do it for you...

I might take it upon myself to make one to add to the global Applescript menu so that the functionality could be added to GarageBand...

Of course, this assumes that I'll have time with all the messing around with GB that I'm going to be doing :D

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by Torajima
The iMovie and FCE comparison simply doesn't hold water. I can start a project in iMovie and finish it in Final Cut Express or any other "Pro" video app.

But once you've created something in Garageband, that's it. You're done. Because, unlike iMovie, YOU CAN NOT EXPORT GARAGEBAND PROJECTS TO OTHER APPLICATIONS.

The ability to import and export midi and audio tracks is a rather stupid omission, even for an application aimed at "novices".


Your logic is a little off. Yes, I can output a DV stream from iMovie and import in into FCP but if I used any FX or transitions I will not be able to manipulate those FX/tansitions in FCP. If, for example, I want to change the length of a dissolve I have to go back to iMovie and make that change. iMovie can only export a finished product. Same as all the other iApps. If I do some touching up to a photo in iPhoto I can only export it as a jpeg. A flat image. I cannot export it as a Photoshop docutment w/a bunch of layers reflecting each change I made. I cannot export an iDVD menu and import it into DVD SP. GB is no different. It will export a "finished" product the same as the rest of the iApps.


Lethal

[martin]

Originally posted by tjwett: It is a toy for playing with at home. It is not for doing real work with. That is, unless you plan to release an album of AAC quality tunes that are built around a bunch of bundled loops and synth presets. Originally posted by IndyGopher
Have you actually heard Top-40 radio in the last 10 years?

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


(BTW, it's AIFF-quality)

[pgwalsh]

Originally posted by martin
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


(BTW, it's AIFF-quality) Apparently he didn't realize that all original material has been used up and now all new music are loops and all restaurants are Taco Bell.

[gloftis]

Unless I am wrong, you can convert to AIFF with Sound Studio. We'll see Friday, when we all get ouro ands on GB

[gloftis]

Hey, iLife 04 ain't Bias, but it is a whole lot of functionality that works for a Shareware price!

I have a buddy who does voiceovers for companies you would recognize. Based on the Garage Band specs, he'll be trading in a $250 K studio for GB on his eMac G4.

Yes, there are more complete and more powerful music/mixing apps out there. So buy one, but quit griping about an app you haven't even seen that provides far more value than its cost!

[tjwett]

Originally posted by gloftis
Unless I am wrong, you can convert to AIFF with Sound Studio...

or iTunes.

[martin]

You don't have to convert to AIFF, since GB exports in (and only in) AIFF.

[tjwett]

Originally posted by gloftis
...I have a buddy who does voiceovers for companies you would recognize. Based on the Garage Band specs, he'll be trading in a $250 K studio for GB on his eMac G4...

I've worked extensively in both music production, and audio post production for t.v., radio, even video games and I can't imagine doing a full days work and completing a job with nothing but GarageBand, even a 10 second radio spot. There is a lot more to it than pressing record and putting it in an ad. There has to be, at the very least, compression, wave form editing, normalizing, good EQ, etc. Oh man, and most important of all, a good set of monitors (speakers). I really hope he isn't planning to monitor and mix on his built-in eMac speakers. I could see POSSIBLY laying down a vanilla backing bed of music with GarageBand but what happens when I need to export, and need to give the work to others? Surely the guys in the post house running Pro Tools aren't going to be able to open up my GarageBand document. And someone always wants hard copies of the mix and master on DAT, ADAT, etc. Surely they aren't going to log and AAC file, or an AAC file converted to aiff. What exactly is this guy getting rid of in his 250k dollar rig? I can see eliminating things like a 48 channel Neve desk or a few hardware synths but there are too many studio essentials that are absolute must have workhorses to go without. And if this guy is having a garage sale, I'd really like to know!:)

[martin]

Originally posted by tjwett
And if this guy is having a garage sale, I'd really like to know!:)
Of course he's having a Garage sale. After all, where would the Band go...:rolleyes:

Thank you, thankyou all very much. You've been a wonderful audience.:D

[gloftis]

…I've worked extensively in both music production, and audio post production for t.v., radio, even video games and I can't imagine…

If you woould read what I said and thought, you wouldn't reach absurd conclusions.

OF course there is a lot to voiceovers, but I said "based on the specs." because nnone of us really knonws what GB will do until tomorrow.

We are going to wring GB out and find the holes, perhaps it won't do the job, but it is a precursor of moreeconomical software on the horizon that does to the ProTools of the world what they did to analog.

As for the garage sale, watch eBay! He is keeping a set of speakers, a select few mics, and his board.

[tjwett]

Originally posted by gloftis
If you woould read what I said and thought, you wouldn't reach absurd conclusions.

OF course there is a lot to voiceovers, but I said "based on the specs." because nnone of us really knonws what GB will do until tomorrow...

Absurd conclusions? You said:
"Based on the Garage Band specs, he'll be trading in a $250 K studio for GB on his eMac G4...".

You say yourself that no one even knows the specs yet. What I find absurd is that someone has decided to sell 250k worth of equipment based on, invisible specs, screenshots, a hunch? I understand GB is putting computer music creation in the hands of every kid, housewife, and grandpa, and opening the doors to a whole new audience. But there has always been cheap software, even free software, that does all we've seen in GB and more. Apple has no doubt made it easy, fun, and pretty on the eyes which is what set GB apart. Still, I'll take this to the grave with me: GarageBand is a toy. I wouldn't trade even my mouse for it.

[gloftis]

<B>Still, I'll take this to the grave with me: GarageBand is a toy.<B>

Hey, go for it! Join those guys who think Macs are toys.

[tjwett]

Originally posted by gloftis
Hey, go for it! Join those guys who think Macs are toys.

don't get upset, i'm not saying that GarageBand sucks. i think it's very good, for what it is. my XBox is a toy and it's awesome. i just don't think any serious producers should be getting excited about it. i think my mom and dad will love it though.

[ideapower]

Since the new Logic Express touts "work with up to 48 audio tracks in stereo or mono" ... logically (pardon the pun) one would assume that GarageBand has a much lower limit on audio tracks.

The "up to 64 tracks" claim on GarageBand has got to have some fine print that nobody is seeing.

anybody get an early shipment that can tell?

[ChrisH3677]

Originally posted by tjwett
Still, I'll take this to the grave with me: GarageBand is a toy. I wouldn't trade even my mouse for it.

Defintion of a toy

1 An object for children to play with.
2 Something of little importance; a trifle.
3 An amusement; a pastime: thought of the business as a toy.
4 A small ornament; a bauble.
5 A diminutive thing or person.
6 A dog of a very small breed or of a variety smaller than the standard variety of its breed.
7 Scots. A loose covering for the head, formerly worn by women.Chiefly Southern U.S.
8 A shooter marble.

And just which definition of toy does GB fit??

1 No. Adults are going to use it
2 No. It's generating too much public interest and enthusiasm
3) No. Many people are going to use GB as more than a past time
4. No.
5. No.
6. No.
7. No.
8. No.

If GB is a toy, then, by comparison, so is any software that is not high-end.

Toy software is software that you cannot do anything productive and useful with.

GB as demonstrated by John and Steve can produce REAL music that can and will be played in public - even on occasions, by professional musicians.

[tjwett]

Ok Mr. Webster, all I meant is that it's just to be used for fun. I'm not saying that it's worthless or sounds crap. In fact, I'm thinking the synths will be rather decent. I just don't know of any passionate musician that would settle for it's limitations. As an avid sampler I just couldn't bear to be limited to a bundle of loops with no import options of my own. I know great music is up to the artist and you can do a lot with very little kit. Creativity always wins over technology. I just don't see GarageBand as being flexible enough. I like sampling and programming my own drums. I like creating original sounds. I despise synth presets. Etc. Etc. But I have tools for all these things and I never expected GarageBand to do any of them. My comments are directed towards pros and bedroom studio people that are expecting GB to replace their powerful hardware and software tools. It's just not possible. I'm really not trying to strip the fun from this app or trying to ruin it for anyone who is psyched about it, or look down on them. Hell, even I'm excited to see what it sounds like. And BTW, I do think children would have a blast with it. I would have gladly sat at the computer with GB rather than go through 7 years of piano and saxophone lessons as a kid. :)

[gloftis]

"I would have gladly sat at the computer with GB rather than go through 7 years of piano and saxophone lessons as a kid."

I, too, am a musician by training--single reeds/heavy brass and voice. Midi, GB, et al coulld never replace the knowledge I gained from 16 years of music training. But, given my lack of coordination at the keyboard, something like a Mac with GB and a Midi keyboard could have made my composition class experience much less stressful.

I see where you are coming from, now, and i agree that GB may not be for some serious musicians. We'll all see tomorrow. My iLife 04 is scheduled to arrive before 4:30 EDT.

It willl be interesting to see where this discussion goes after we try GB out.

[ChrisH3677]

Originally posted by tjwett
My comments are directed towards pros and bedroom studio people that are expecting GB to replace their powerful hardware and software tools. It's just not possible.

On that i definitely agree - there's been some quite ridiculous statements made giving the impression that GB is the be-all and end-all of music production!

And because of that, I could understand you calling it a toy as a reaction to those stupid claims.

Yeah sure for some people it will be a toy they'll play with occasionally to have a bit of fun but do nothing useful with - just like playing solitaire.

But GB is a tool. As your last statement about children highlights.

It will be a tool used by parents to help teach their children about digital music.

It will be a tool used by wannabe singer-songwriters to create some reasonable backing tracks.

It will be a tool used by professional musicians to inspire and sketch new ideas.


edit: Although... before long, the kids will be teaching the parents probably!! :D

[gileschin]

Gee, I wish Apple came out with this when I was a kid!!!

[fingers]

Originally posted by gileschin
Gee, I wish Apple came out with this when I was a kid!!!

Me too!

I wrote most of my best songs on a 4 track cassette portastudio. Guitar, bass, drum machine, vocals and a bit of bouncing.

I then got into 'computers' - I spent more time learning how to use the audio apps - Cubase Audio etc than actually making music.

I now use Pro Tools rewired to Reason and love this set up but I can't wait to get my hands on garageband! I reckon it will be a great songwriting tool, a fantastic tool to jam with and I am sure my music productivity will get back to my old portastudio days.

I can't wait!

Rich

[ChrisH3677]

Originally posted by fingers
...a fantastic tool to jam with...

That's it!! That's what muso's are gunna love about it! Muso's love to jam, yet can't always get a friend(s) to jam with.

Now they can jam with (modern) man's best friend! :D



PS Now some git will reply with "Yeah, but like, there's been software for ages that could do that-at!"

Yeah - and iMovie, iPhoto, iTunes, iDVD, and iCal weren't the first of their kinds - yet they took off, sold Macs, and many people rave about them.

Because... they've made their function user-friendly and easily accessible.

Ditto GarageBand

[ChrisH3677]

Hey I just realised that FCE only imports AIFF audio. And that's only what GB exports. Is Apple hinting at something here? Or just making it a little easier for us FCE users?

And that's another way GB is a tool - for soundtracks for iMovie and FCE

PS Sorry for the tone of my previous post. I have become a little frustrated by people trying to douse the enthusiasm of those excited about GB.

(Although - I'm also frustrated with people who think it is the be-all music app)

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by ChrisH3677
Hey I just realised that FCE only imports AIFF audio. And that's only what GB exports. Is Apple hinting at something here? Or just making it a little easier for us FCE users?



I wouldn't read to much into it. AIFF is a standard.


Lethal

[LosJackal]

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
I wouldn't read to much into it. AIFF is a standard.


Lethal

...and an uncompressed format at that, so it's the best to import into a movie. You know when you drag an MP3 from your iTunes playlists into iMovie? That progress bar is it being converted into AIFF, and taking 10x the disk space in the process.

[gloftis]

GB is very accessible, but less capable than it could be. I understand the complete feature set is not available on G3s, but it is not easy to create even rythm backgrounds with the loops.

Loops are 2, 4, 8, or 16 beats--at best half a phrase. The notes are not displayed as music and transposition is via a number. After an hour, I gave up on trying to build a standard B Flat blues progression for bass and drums.

If there is a way to build a chord progression ON the screen-based keyboard, it is not intuitive.

Perhaps GB is more complete on G4s, but it certainly does not live up to its press on G3s.

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by gloftis
GB is very accessible, but less capable than it could be. I understand the complete feature set is not available on G3s, but it is not easy to create even rythm backgrounds with the loops.

Loops are 2, 4, 8, or 16 beats--at best half a phrase. The notes are not displayed as music and transposition is via a number. After an hour, I gave up on trying to build a standard B Flat blues progression for bass and drums.

If there is a way to build a chord progression ON the screen-based keyboard, it is not intuitive.

Perhaps GB is more complete on G4s, but it certainly does not live up to its press on G3s.


gloftis, is this your impression as a complete musical amateur that's never played an instrument but always wanted to or is this your opinion as a musician used to working w/music software? As an editor used to working on FCP and Avid systems iMovie's interface is an absolute shambles that feels completely wrong. But to the average Joe iMovie is great because it's clean, simple, drag 'n drop interface is easy to understand and master.


Lethal

[kap]

..you guys complaining about not being able to export GarageBand creations, you do realize that all you have to do is 1. Export to iTunes and 2. run the resulting .aif file (located in your iTunes-specified mp3 folder/Import/) through the LAME encoder to create an mp3, right?

I realize GarageBand should have this functionality right out of the box, but this does the job.

[fingers]

Originally posted by kap
..you guys complaining about not being able to export GarageBand creations, you do realize that all you have to do is 1. Export to iTunes and 2. run the resulting .aif file (located in your iTunes-specified mp3 folder/Import/) through the LAME encoder to create an mp3, right?

I realize GarageBand should have this functionality right out of the box, but this does the job.

Why not encode it within iTunes?
Go to preferences>Importing>Then choose MP3 encoder (or AAC or WAV if you prefer)
The encoded track will then be in your library.

If you encode a copy as an MP3 64KBs stereo you can post it on my site. Make sure you copyright it first though and that it is all your original work. You will soon be able to post High Quality MP3's on the site when my new server is available - beginning of next week.

Hope this helps.

Rich

[gloftis]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LethalWolfe
[B]gloftis, is this your impression as a complete musical amateur that's never played an instrument but always wanted to or is this your opinion as a musician used to working w/music software?

Neither

I have a degree in music education and something over 25 years of training. I played single reeds and heavy brass professionally for 5 years and have 8 years experience singing in musical theater and opera companies.

I have no experience with music software, because there was noo such thing when I was in college.

I find you assumption that musicians are "used to working w/music software" rather interesting.

I am far from condemning GB; it has great promise.

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by gloftis
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LethalWolfe
[B]gloftis, is this your impression as a complete musical amateur that's never played an instrument but always wanted to or is this your opinion as a musician used to working w/music software?

Neither

I have a degree in music education and something over 25 years of training. I played single reeds and heavy brass professionally for 5 years and have 8 years experience singing in musical theater and opera companies.

I have no experience with music software, because there was noo such thing when I was in college.

I find you assumption that musicians are "used to working w/music software" rather interesting.

I am far from condemning GB; it has great promise.

I meant "a musician who is used to working w/software" not "musicians are used to working w/software." Sry for making the statement a bit vague<sp?>.


Lethal

[martin]

Originally posted by gloftis
Loops are 2, 4, 8, or 16 beats--at best half a phrase. The notes are not displayed as music and transposition is via a number. After an hour, I gave up on trying to build a standard B Flat blues progression for bass and drums.
My guess is that if you understand what that mean, GB is not for you. GB is not everything, neither is it nothing. It is somewhere in between. I think exactly where is what this discussion is trying to, and never will, establish.

[crenz]

Originally posted by Torajima
Free Pagemaker and Illustrator replacement?

Have you tried Ragtime for DTP? It's free for non-commercial use.

[losackmd]

CANT I SYNC AN ENSONIQ'S SEQUENCER THAT HAS TONS OF SEQUENCED DATA
WITH THE SEQUENCER OF GB SO THAT THE DATA IS MIDI'D OUT TO RECORD INSIDE THE GB SEQUENCER?

THIS WAY I COULD ASSIGN DIFFERENT SOFTWARE INSTRUMENTS TO THE MIDI DATA AND HAVE IT ALL IN GB

SIMPLY PUT IF I RUN MIDI OUT FROM THE ENSONIQ'S SEQUENCER TO MIDI IN OF GB ONE TRACK AT A TIME
WONT THE DATA RECORD INTO GB
AS IF I WAS PLAYING IT ON THE KEYBOARD LIVE?

THIS WOULD BE IMPORTANT TO KNOW

THANKS

GLENN

[jake conure]

You CAN use the Garage Band in other applications. I just imported it into iMovie and FCP4. (from iTunes).From FCP you can export it as a QT Aif file or whatever...jake

[losackmd]

JAKE

THATS NOT THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION

I AM ASKING IF I CAN USE AN EXTERNAL SEQUENCER TO
MIDI OUT ITS DATA INTO GB

[martin]

NOT IF YOUR CAPS LOCK KEY IS BROKEN

[losackmd]

can you or anyone answer the question
i am appealing to those who have GB
know about midi

and have something
intelligent to say to me

can one use an ext sequencer with GB and send out its midi data

[crazytom]

I'm not familiar with that sequencer, but if it will transmit the MIDI data as it's playing the sequence, then yes, GB will be able to capture it (but just the MIDI, not the sound coming from it).

GB uses a lot of cpu power for software synths and real instruments: my Dual MDD won't play more than 4 tracks of these (it'll play a lot more tracks that are just sound files, though).

[losackmd]

thanks

i own a G5 1.8 GHZ with 2 GB RAM
i hope that is enough to do whatever i need to do.

gl

[amnesiac1984]

One hting I always wondered about this midi export issue. WHy isn't midi data compatible with Copy and Paste between applications. I often want to transfer midi drum sequences from reason to logic and the obvious simple method would be cut n paste but htis don't work with midi. Apple there's some room for innovation (sort of) here!

[losackmd]

am i to understand that the USB midi controller
connected to GB only needs midi out from the midi controller?

so there is no midi out from GB back into the USB MIDI KEYBOARD

in other words GB is all internal?

So it will not send out midi back to the midi controller?

hope im clear

usually
we connect midi in to out and out to in with midi thru checked so that
the controller if it has its own sequencer /internal patches
receives midi data from the computer sequencer to play its own patches

GB cant do this ?

This is sad!

[crazytom]

I didn't expect much from GB when they first announced it and gave the description. But after playing with it for a while, I was more disappointed than I thought I'd be. There's a lot of room for improvement on this app. It would be more useful if you could:

1. Bounce MIDI/software synths to make an AIF track, freeing up CPU power. Right now, you could just solo one track, bounce it then reimport; but it would be nice if it were simplified.

2. Automate panning.

3. Didn't combine all of the song data into the GB save file. Sometimes you might want to use one thing from another song without having to rebuild it.

4. Would allow you to create your own aif loops and store them for easy access in the library.

All of these, except for panning have workarounds, so it's not a huge deal; but since there IS a workaround, Apple should oblige and put those features in the next version.

[crazytom]

Originally posted by losackmd
am i to understand that the USB midi controller
connected to GB only needs midi out from the midi controller?

so there is no midi out from GB back into the USB MIDI KEYBOARD

in other words GB is all internal?

So it will not send out midi back to the midi controller?

hope im clear

usually
we connect midi in to out and out to in with midi thru checked so that
the controller if it has its own sequencer /internal patches
receives midi data from the computer sequencer to play its own patches

GB cant do this ?

This is sad!

Yup, that's right. GB will not control an external synth. MIDI in only.

[tjwett]

Originally posted by crazytom
I didn't expect much from GB when they first announced it and gave the description. But after playing with it for a while, I was more disappointed than I thought I'd be. There's a lot of room for improvement on this app. It would be more useful if you could:

1. Bounce MIDI/software synths to make an AIF track, freeing up CPU power. Right now, you could just solo one track, bounce it then reimport; but it would be nice if it were simplified.

2. Automate panning.

3. Didn't combine all of the song data into the GB save file. Sometimes you might want to use one thing from another song without having to rebuild it.

4. Would allow you to create your own aif loops and store them for easy access in the library.

All of these, except for panning have workarounds, so it's not a huge deal; but since there IS a workaround, Apple should oblige and put those features in the next version.

Logic does each one of the things on your list. My point is that if they start adding more features to GB it starts to step on the toes of Logic. They want people to have a reason to buy Logic. They want you to need Logic, that's the whole idea. Why add features to $49 GB that are found in $299 Logic?

[crazytom]

Originally posted by tjwett
Logic does each one of the things on your list. My point is that if they start adding more features to GB it starts to step on the toes of Logic. They want people to have a reason to buy Logic. They want you to need Logic, that's the whole idea. Why add features to $49 GB that are found in $299 Logic?

Hee, hee. I'd hope Logic does all those things! I'm not asking for much, really. (OK, maybe separating the saved files into there individual parts is asking too much...) The things I'm asking for are just things to speed up the work flow. As long as GB stays with only 1 input at a time, it won't be worth much at all.

If I wanted full MIDI support, full automation, multiple effect sends, vst support, 8-24 channels of simultaneous input, and all the other stuff, then yes, Logic is the way to go. I've been using Bias Deck for a bunch of years now. In no way do I expect GB to replace that or any app like it. I've thought of jumping to Logic (I need more power, Scotty!), but I've heard that Logic's learning curve is a bit steep.

[martin]

Originally posted by tjwett
Why add features to $49 GB that are found in $299 Logic?

I think you mean the $49 GB + iMovie4 + iDVD4 + iPhoto4.

[danbirchall]

Originally posted by Torajima
without the ability to export songs as midi files and/or raw aif files.

Yes, I know this app is geared to novices, but to what end? You can't actually compose with it, as anything you create with it can't be used outside of Garageband and iTunes.

Whoa... lay off the pipe for a few seconds.

By default, GarageBand is dumping AIFF files into my iTunes folder when I export.

And in iTunes, as long as my "import" settings are set to MP3, I can pick "Convert to MP3" from the Advanced menu.

So right there I've got AIFF and MP3, both of which seem quite useful outside GarageBand and iTunes.

Now, there ARE other things that limit GarageBand's usefulness for serious work - but export format isn't one of them.

[Torajima]

Originally posted by danbirchall

So right there I've got AIFF and MP3, both of which seem quite useful outside GarageBand and iTunes.


Useful to you, perhaps, but as a keyboard player I need to be able to save (export) and load (import) midi sequences.

What's the difference? Well, once it's in AIFF or MP3, you can't really change it. Sure, you could import it into a Pro App and loop it, slice it up, and even transpose it, but that's pretty much it.

With a midi sequence, you can still edit it any way imaginable.

[martin]

Clearly GB is not for you. Do yourself a favour and give up on it. I know you'd be doing us a favour...

[Torajima]

Originally posted by martin
Clearly GB is not for you. Do yourself a favour and give up on it. I know you'd be doing us a favour...

OTOH, if enouch people complain about this, perhaps they'll add midi import/export in the next version!?

They sure as hell won't add it if we simply stay_silent.

[martin]

Originally posted by Torajima
OTOH, if enouch people complain about this, perhaps they'll add midi import/export in the next version!?

They sure as hell won't add it if we simply stay_silent.

Complain where? Here?

Write to unrealistic_expectations@apple.com and your dreams may come true. Or not.

[gloftis]

That's what Garage Band is today, and it is not a bad place to start.

All these ideas and suggestions are good, and, since Bill Gates is not running Apple, we may see them in future releases.

If MIDI exports will get more digital musicians on Macs, we'll see them.

Now, if iDVD would work with 3rd party DVD burners...

[Torajima]

Originally posted by martin
Complain where? Here?

Write to unrealistic_expectations@apple.com and your dreams may come true. Or not.

You think it's unrealistic to expect Garageband to save & load plain old midi sequences, something which every other midi sequencer on the planet does?

[martin]

Yep.:p

[Tulse]

GarageBand is an entry-level product. It is not meant to fulfill every need, especially since Apple already has higher-end (more expensive) products that do, and it does not want to cannibalize its own sales. Just as you shouldn't expect iPhoto to ever get any significant graphics tools, you shouldn't expect Apple to put a lot of pro features into GarageBand. If you want to output MIDI files, you're not the audience for GarageBand -- the people it's primarily targeted at have never heard of MIDI, much less already have expensive MIDI equipment.

If you want something more powerful than GarageBand, buy Logic, or any of the other mid- to pro-level products available. Of course, you can complain to Apple that its entry-level (essentially free) product doesn't have certain pro features, but I think it highly unlikely that they will adopt an untenable business model, regardless of the number of complaints they receive.

[martin]

Yeah. What he said. :D

[Torajima]

Originally posted by Tulse

If you want something more powerful than GarageBand, buy Logic, or any of the other mid- to pro-level products available. Of course, you can complain to Apple that its entry-level (essentially free) product doesn't have certain pro features, but I think it highly unlikely that they will adopt an untenable business model, regardless of the number of complaints they receive.

Oh for pete's sake. Have you people even been listening? The ability to save & load midi sequences IS NOT A PRO FEATURE. Every other Midi Sequencer (and Garageband *is* a midi & audio sequencer) allows you to do this, even those aimed at novices. Even cheap ones. Even free ones.

And I already own a pro app, that doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to use Garageband too. I suspect it would take someone at Apple ten minutes tops to implement this feature. The midi data is already there... they just need to bury an import/export command in one of the menus, and save as a standard midi file.

[losackmd]

torajima

im with you

you are right in what you say.

Feedback is always productive for software companies.
If you stay silent nothing will get done.


i wouldnt mind paying for an update that includes the midi features
and Apple wouldnt mind taking my money to provide that feature.


keep complaining
its healthy

[martin]

If Adobe wanted to sell Photoshop for the same price as Photoshop LE, they'd sell stacks but profits would plummet. Same code, same box, why not the same price?

It's called stratification. Sometimes they do it with "light" versions (Photoshop LE), sometimes with time- or upgrade-limited student versions (Dreamweaver), sometimes with lower-specced apps that are dissimilar to the high-end app but operate in the same space (think: iMovie and FCP). All are ways of getting you to buy the more expensive app if you need certain features. The inexpensive apps also increase mindshare...
"Hey Lenny, that GarageBand on my Mac is cool and really easy to use."
"Oh yeah, Carl? I hear all of Apple's stuff is like that."
"I hear ya Lenny."

The $49 iLife suite is for "the rest of us" that aren't going to shell out for FCP, Logic and DVD SP because
we aren't very talented/bright, but we are keen
we don't have a lot of money
it's a past-time, we'll never make real money from it
the missus won't let us (because of the reason given above :D )
we aren't even hitting the limitations of the low-end software, and probably never will

Remember, even the Jam Pack is extra. Don't hear people complaining too loudly about that, but that's because some of us won't need it so it's not an issue, while those that do are keen enough to shell out for it.

Those who are talented/bright/hitting limitations etc won't have their creativity stifled by the 'lack' of features in GB. Remember, this software is all new stuff, but music making has been around for quite a while before it. Apple would love you to keep using their stuff, but for the top 5% or so of music makers, it probably won't be GarageBand.

If you want to pay for an upgrade for a more betterer midi thing, here ya go (http://www.apple.com/software/pro/logic/).
Mail checks out to S. Jobs, 1 Infinte Loop, Cupertino, CA.

[Tulse]

The ability to save & load midi sequences IS NOT A PRO FEATURE. Every other Midi Sequencer (and Garageband *is* a midi & audio sequencer) allows you to do this

I think the problem arises precisely because GarageBand isn't a general-purpose MIDI sequencer -- it is a music-production application for novices. Yes, it has some MIDI capability, as it has some loop capability and some software amp capability, but the object of the app is not to be a MIDI sequencer, or loop manipulator, or general software amp. Instead, the object is to allow novices to produce sophisticated-sounding music pieces within the application.

Again, compare it to iPhoto. It has slideshow capabilities which are far less than apps such as PowerPoint or Keynote, it has editing capabilities which are far less than apps such as GraphicConverter or Photoshop, and it has organizational capabilities which are far less than photo database apps. But iPhoto isn't competing with any one of those apps, because its job isn't only to slideshow, or edit, or organize -- it's simply to do the kind of simple things that a consumer would want to do with their pictures.

You can complain all you want about the exclusion of MIDI export, but if you're exporting MIDI files, you are moving well beyond what GarageBand is intended to do. There's no doubt that folks with expertise will try to squeeze what they can out of GarageBand, and that's great, but it's silly to berate Apple for not including functionality (however common) that isn't needed for the primary focus of the product.

[Torajima]

Originally posted by Tulse
I think the problem arises precisely because GarageBand isn't a general-purpose MIDI sequencer -- it is a music-production application for novices. Yes, it has some MIDI capability, as it has some loop capability and some software amp capability, but the object of the app is not to be a MIDI sequencer, or loop manipulator, or general software amp. Instead, the object is to allow novices to produce sophisticated-sounding music pieces within the application.

What happens when they outgrow the application? Wouldn't it be nice if they could upgrade to a pro app and import their songs into it? If not the whole song, than at least individual midi sequences and aif loops?

Or do you think it's okay that users that quickly outgrow Garageband basically have to throw away any work they've done in Garageband and start over!?

Let me tell you... I've been writting midi based music for over ten years, and I have found that re-creating a complex midi sequence from memory is a near impossible task.

At any rate, I'm done here. It's obvious that most of you are guitarists who don't understand (or care about) the importance of midi. ;)

[martin]

Originally posted by Torajima
What happens when they outgrow the application? Wouldn't it be nice if they could upgrade to a pro app and import their songs into it? If not the whole song, than at least individual midi sequences and aif loops?

Or do you think it's okay that users that quickly outgrow Garageband basically have to throw away any work they've done in Garageband and start over!?

Let me tell you... I've been writting midi based music for over ten years, and I have found that re-creating a complex midi sequence from memory is a near impossible task.

At any rate, I'm done here. It's obvious that most of you are guitarists who don't understand (or care about) the importance of midi. ;)

What about the poor Claris Works users who outgrow it and move to In Design?? iMovie users who move to FCP?

What users have quickly outgrown Garage Band? You're making a strawman argument. My guess would be that if someone moves from GB to a pro app, they would leave the past behind because (a) they have outgrown the music they made and (b) the new app has that much more to play with, they would quickly forget about li'l ol' GB and be creative with the new app. If they "quickly outgrew GB" then they wouldn't have that many tunes anyway...

Are ya really done??

[crazytom]

Originally posted by Torajima
Let me tell you... I've been writting midi based music for over ten years, and I have found that re-creating a complex midi sequence from memory is a near impossible task.

At any rate, I'm done here. It's obvious that most of you are guitarists who don't understand (or care about) the importance of midi. ;)

Well, since you're done here:

Easy on the guitarists! I think they understand the 'importance' of MIDI: they don't have it and have to create complex chords and solos each and every time they play...they just can't press a button.

As many people have said, this is the first version. Apple ~may~ add MIDI import/export. What comes after that? People screaming to have mp4 import, wma import, sdII, etc.? For now, GB is take it or leave it. If it doesn't suit your purposes, then move on and get a program that does.

Did you hear what happened when the guitarist locked his keys in the car?


---It took him 3 hours to get the keyboardist out! :D :D :D

[martin]

Originally posted by crazytom
For now, GB is take it or leave it. If it doesn't suit your purposes, then move on and get a program that does.


do u think he noticed? :D

[tjwett]

Originally posted by Torajima
Let me tell you... I've been writting midi based music for over ten years, and I have found that re-creating a complex midi sequence from memory is a near impossible task.

At any rate, I'm done here. It's obvious that most of you are guitarists who don't understand (or care about) the importance of midi. ;)

Umm, you've been writing MIDI based music for over ten years and you're using GarageBand? What's the story here? You'd think in 10 years you'd have absorbed at least a working knowledge of some more powerful app. Why would you even bother with GarageBand in the first place? There isn't a single thing it does that a real sequencer can't do. What would you expect from an app that comes bundled free with a new puter and is aimed and mom, dad, and the kids for jamming in the living room? What have you been using for the last ten years, and what is so great about GB that makes you want to use it for serious work? This all seems rather silly.

[norville]

Sheesh, when I saw the title of this thread I figured it would be one big trollfest, and I was not disappointed. But there are a couple falsehoods mentioned here that ought to be cleared up.

First, crazytom (and probably others) said:
It would be more useful if you could: 4. Would allow you to create your own aif loops and store them for easy access in the library.
This is just Silly. You've been freely able to make fully-functional AIF loops since before GB's release. Apple just hasn't publicized it very well, because in their eyes it's a "developer" tool for people who want to make and resell loop add-on packs:

Apple Loops SDK (http://developer.apple.com/sdk/#AppleLoops)

Included is the Soundtrack Loop Utility which lets you mark up AIFF loops with tempo, pitch, categorization, and even temporal hints, and there's good documentation on how to do it all (it's very easy). Once you've marked up an AIF with this utility, just drag & drop it into GB's loop window, and GB will fully index it. Simple.
Obviously this isn't bundled with GB, but that's because the target market for GB is those beginners who are looking to use somebody else's loops, not create their own.

Then, Torajima said:
What happens when they outgrow the application? Wouldn't it be nice if they could upgrade to a pro app and import their songs into it? If not the whole song, than at least individual midi sequences and aif loops?
The next version of Logic Pro will be able to import projects from GarageBand:

Apple previews Sculpture, UltraBeat, Guitar Amp (http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2004/01/15/nextgen/)

Happy GarageBanding.

[whickus]

What we need to remember here is the league of programs that Garage Band is bundled with - hobbyist, or amatuer at best.

iPhoto and iMovie allow the typical consumer to create great photos and movies for their own enjoyment or the enjoyment of the people close to them. You will never see a movie created in iMovie at your local 24 theatre cinema, but it's a great place to start.

This is exactly what Garage Band allows Mac users to do with music. I've been a Digital Performer and Logic user for years and out of the box, Garage Band lets a musician do what he/she does best - CREATE MUSIC! One simple window to work with, TONS of software instruments to experiment with (which sound great) and integrated almost perfectly with iTunes to burn your own music in no time.

I swear I've spent more time switching between windows on higher end products than laying down tracks, which is why I bought the software in the first place. With Garage Band, the creativity simply flows and if you spend more time focusing on what it doesn't let you do, you'll eventually disrupt the balance between good and evil and end up in a space/ time warp where everyone has a goat-tee and uses PCs. Then where would you be? No good music software at all!!

My first point is that Apple has done a great thing by making this kind of product available to even the lowest income bracket (provided they already own a Mac). I'm sure if you plead and beg with Apple, they will discontinue Garage Band, which once again, will force you to pay $299 at the least for a similar product.

My second point is HAVE FUN!! With that I'll end my post.