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MacRumors
Jan 15, 2004, 06:45 AM
Apple released (http://www.apple.com/appleworks/update/) an update to their Appleworks application.

This update to AppleWorks 6.0 and later supports mice with scroll wheels and improves the performance and reliability of AppleWorks' presentation and spreadsheet environments. AppleWorks 6.2.9 also offers improved printing and resolves issues using web based templates and clip-art on networks using proxy servers.

MattG
Jan 15, 2004, 06:46 AM
This update to AppleWorks 6.0 and later supports mice with scroll wheels Now if only Apple would make a mouse with a scroll wheel...

longofest
Jan 15, 2004, 06:48 AM
I tried to install it, but the installer kept freezing on the "gathering information" step, and gave me the spinning wheel.

Looking forward to scroll wheel support once Apple fixes the installer problem

true777
Jan 15, 2004, 06:49 AM
AppleWorks needs either a major overhaul, not just minor tweaks, or should be dropped, IMHO.

GrannySmith_G5
Jan 15, 2004, 06:49 AM
how exciting. Now if they would update stickies to version 3.0.1 then I would be in heaven.

BenRoethig
Jan 15, 2004, 07:14 AM
The good news: AppleWorks is updated.
The bad news: It's still seriously outdated.

I wonder how many people actually still use AppleWorks. 6.0 isn't really that different than 3.0 that came with my old Performa 5200 (That came with some variety of System 7).

eric_n_dfw
Jan 15, 2004, 07:26 AM
<Cricket's chirping>

Krizoitz
Jan 15, 2004, 07:37 AM
I really wish people would give up on this old argument. There is no reason for Apple to make a mouse with a scroll wheel. There isno reason for them to make a mouse with multiple buttons either.

Why?

Simplicity. The original designers of the Macintosh wanted the user to be able to learn to use the computer simply by watching. If you have multiple buttons its not as easy to learn. And yes I realize that learning to use a multi-button mouse isn't THAT hard but there are more factors.

Need. The average computer user doesn't NEED a second button or a scroll wheel. Yes those of us who regularly visit these forums probably do, but you have to remember, we aren't a very good sample of the whole Mac community. We represent the high end users, so its a bad idea to assume that our needs reflect the needs of all Mac users.

No market. Face it, there are a TON of great third party mice/trackballs out there. Kensington, Logitech, Macally, Microsoft even make great USB mice from the most basic to the most advanced of features in a huge price range. Why should Apple spend the time and money creating something that it doesn't need to.

So quit waiting for Apple to make an uber mouse, spend $15 and you can find a nice multi-button, scroll wheel, optical mouse, or spend more money to get all the bells and whistles.


Originally posted by MattG
Now if only Apple would make a mouse with a scroll wheel...

Chip NoVaMac
Jan 15, 2004, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by MattG
Now if only Apple would make a mouse with a scroll wheel...

As a realtive newbie, can someone explain why Apple hasn't even offered this as an option. I currently use a Graphire pad and would like an Apple alternative to the mouse.

Chip NoVaMac
Jan 15, 2004, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by Krizoitz
I really wish people would give up on this old argument. There is no reason for Apple to make a mouse with a scroll wheel. There isno reason for them to make a mouse with multiple buttons either.

Why?

Simplicity. The original designers of the Macintosh wanted the user to be able to learn to use the computer simply by watching. If you have multiple buttons its not as easy to learn. And yes I realize that learning to use a multi-button mouse isn't THAT hard but there are more factors.

Need. The average computer user doesn't NEED a second button or a scroll wheel. Yes those of us who regularly visit these forums probably do, but you have to remember, we aren't a very good sample of the whole Mac community. We represent the high end users, so its a bad idea to assume that our needs reflect the needs of all Mac users.

No market. Face it, there are a TON of great third party mice/trackballs out there. Kensington, Logitech, Macally, Microsoft even make great USB mice from the most basic to the most advanced of features in a huge price range. Why should Apple spend the time and money creating something that it doesn't need to.

So quit waiting for Apple to make an uber mouse, spend $15 and you can find a nice multi-button, scroll wheel, optical mouse, or spend more money to get all the bells and whistles.

One for some of us like the look and feel of Apple products over others. Also for us switchers it is a pain in the you know what to have to go back to the keyboard when a wheeled/multi-buttoned mouse would save time and effort.

While some of your comments seem valid; why do Windows users get an advantage that Apple users don't? I know many Windows users that never take advantage of the whell/extra buttons, but do when shown.

I am surprised that Apple hasn't seen a benifit to offering such a mouse. I hope that they would if the dollars are there. So you might have a small point.

Chip NoVaMac
Jan 15, 2004, 07:51 AM
To bad that iWrite (as well other programs0 didn't find an annoucement. I still run Mac and Windows since I need a truly Office compatible program. I would much rather give my money to Apple than M$.

mhawkshaw
Jan 15, 2004, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by Chip NoVaMac
As a realtive newbie, can someone explain why Apple hasn't even offered this as an option. I currently use a Graphire pad and would like an Apple alternative to the mouse.

Dare I say it, but most of Microsoft's mouse range is Mac compatible. In most cases you can just plug them into a USB port and Mac OS X will support the right mouse button as a Ctrl + Click and the wheel.

DavidLeblond
Jan 15, 2004, 08:11 AM
I have my Microsoft Intellimouse Explorer hooked up with Expose functions on the two thumb buttons... very VERY nice.

mhar4
Jan 15, 2004, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by BenRoethig

I wonder how many people actually still use AppleWorks. 6.0 isn't really that different than 3.0 that came with my old Performa 5200 (That came with some variety of System 7).

I do. AW has one amazing feature, which is an "Assistant" which formats footnotes in either Chicago Manual of Style or MLA automatically. It is so useful, I would never switch.

Plus I like it's clean interface compared to Word.

tjwett
Jan 15, 2004, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by GrannySmith_G5
how exciting. Now if they would update stickies to version 3.0.1 then I would be in heaven.

HAHAHA:D

that's awesome. LOL.

Grimace
Jan 15, 2004, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by DavidLeblond
I have my Microsoft Intellimouse Explorer hooked up with Expose functions on the two thumb buttons... very VERY nice.

Where do you get the drivers for that??

Steamboatwillie
Jan 15, 2004, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
<Cricket's chirping>

funny, in my mind it was a tumble weed blowing by with howling wolves in the distance

Grimace
Jan 15, 2004, 08:22 AM
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/14205

got it.

rlhubley
Jan 15, 2004, 08:24 AM
Not to continually encourage pointless talk about an Apple branded mouse, but I do think there is a market. IMHO, Apple should stick with one-button mice for the consumer line, and offer a wheeled 2-5 button mouse for the pro line. That way the option is there.

As for Appleworks, Apple really needs to update this software. I know MS Office quite well, as do most of us. However, I don't want to buy the suite. I would rather work in AW. But with my University discount, I can get MS Office for like $35, so I most likely will go ahead and bite the bullet.

The following are just a few of my gripes with AW:

1. Seems impossible to join/merge cells in spreadsheet.
2. AW Help is incredibly lame
3. It seems way too complex to create mailing labels. I still haven't figured out how to make an individual label. Luckily, it seems I can print labels directly from Address Book now.

I've decided to just stop here and instead repeat that AW is simply out-dated. I feel like I am using a toy office suite from 6 years ago, with Aqua.

Any idea of when they might do something about it?

Trowaman
Jan 15, 2004, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by BenRoethig
I wonder how many people actually still use AppleWorks. 6.0 isn't really that different than 3.0 that came with my old Performa 5200 (That came with some variety of System 7).

Here's #2 using Apple works over Office. I know Office is better but evertime I open it I feel a cold shudder go down my spine, as though someone is looking at my wallet.

Besides that, I just watched the MWSF satelite feed and I must say when Office 11 was announced, it really looked like no one cared. However I feel if Apple announced iWrite the place would become I giant party.

CheekyGit
Jan 15, 2004, 08:26 AM
:o ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ :o

settledown
Jan 15, 2004, 08:27 AM
Appleworks updated??

I forgot about that App about 3 years ago. I use textedit(for quick letters or simple write ups), or Word(mainly to open the documents created in the business world).

If I am going to write a grocery list or The Great American Novel, Appleworks doesnt even cross my mind

mhawkshaw
Jan 15, 2004, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by longofest
I tried to install it, but the installer kept freezing on the "gathering information" step, and gave me the spinning wheel.

Looking forward to scroll wheel support once Apple fixes the installer problem

Same problems here. Get a spinning wheel after clicking 'Update' button. Couldn't even force-quit - had to power off. I running Mac OS X 10.3.2 with a HFS+ Journaled filing system. Can I safely assume I won't have lost anything (nothing else was open at the time)?

Freg3000
Jan 15, 2004, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by mhawkshaw
Same problems here. Get a spinning wheel after clicking 'Update' button. Couldn't even force-quit - had to power off. I running Mac OS X 10.3.2 with a HFS+ Journaled filing system. Can I safely assume I won't have lost anything (nothing else was open at the time)?

It takes a long time. I wonder what its doing for all that time.

Anyway, I welcome this update. Sure Apple needs to redesign AW, but scroll wheel support, although it's many years late, is still a nice addition. :)

iggyb
Jan 15, 2004, 09:06 AM
As for Appleworks, Apple really needs to update this software. I know MS Office quite well, as do most of us. However, I don't want to buy the suite. I would rather work in AW. But with my University discount, I can get MS Office for like $35, so I most likely will go ahead and bite the bullet.

Holy Shiznit! $35? I'm goin' back to school! :D

shen
Jan 15, 2004, 09:09 AM
please Apple, just drop the axe on works and give us KOffice or openoffice.org the way safari gave us KHTML!

my birthday is in march, but you could give me an early present. i will even settle for just a word app. maybe abiword based? please. anything!

shen
Jan 15, 2004, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by iggyb
Holy Shiznit! $35? I'm goin' back to school! :D

well my school sucks! they want $200!

i am changing schools! what does that school offer an iPod for $65?

Henriok
Jan 15, 2004, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by carletonmusic
Where do you get the drivers for that?? You don't really need any drivers to use MS's mice with OSX and Exposé.

TomSmithMacEd
Jan 15, 2004, 09:52 AM
I like Appleworks. I also like scroll wheels. It is sort of strange that it didn't work with scroll wheels before. Oh well all for the better now.

steveh
Jan 15, 2004, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by longofest
I tried to install it, but the installer kept freezing on the "gathering information" step, and gave me the spinning wheel.

Looking forward to scroll wheel support once Apple fixes the installer problem

Might not be the installer's problem...just worked here, perfectly.

ionas
Jan 15, 2004, 10:03 AM
it is NO old argument - it is a FACT that a 2nd or 3rd mouse button is missing.

u know how crap it is to use an ibook without a mouse - oh man.

"Simplicity. The original designers of the Macintosh wanted the user to be able to learn to use the computer simply by watching. If you have multiple buttons its not as easy to learn. And yes I realize that learning to use a multi-button mouse isn't THAT hard but there are more factors.""

this is what i CAN understand partly,

still 2 buttons and a wheel that CANT be used as a 3rd button is really "LEARNABLE"

put the wheel at the thumb to the left (or right for lefthanders), add 2 buttons in the middle or add a 3 buttons mose in the BTO options that is exactly the same but got 3 buttons for 49 more.

ppl that dont NEED it wont ADD it.

i know that many ppl get confused on 5button mice with 2 wheels and crap.


"Need. The average computer user doesn't NEED a second button or a scroll wheel. "

thats really crap - while there is NO NEED for scrollwheels, they can make life easier, esp. for stupid noob users who use their mouse for everything.


"Yes those of us who regularly visit these forums probably do, but you have to remember, we aren't a very good sample of the whole Mac community. "


totally true, still i think ONCE mousewheel that DOESNT function as a button and one button more for right click is really useful AS WELL AS learnable.


"We represent the high end users, so its a bad idea to assume that our needs reflect the needs of all Mac users."

personally i like your type of switching positions to other ppls perspective.

still you are wrong ;)


"No market. Face it, there are a TON of great third party mice/trackballs out there."

thats true, but an apple mouse is an apple mouse, and maybe peeps want a mouse that looks like the rest of their machine - esp apple users.

i would include a mouse with 2 button and nonbutton scrollwheel and would add a bto for a 3button mouse with separate nonbutton wheel


Kensington, Logitech, Macally, Microsoft even make great USB mice from the most basic to the most advanced of features in a huge price range.

MX550 rox ;) - what i dislike is that the material goes away where my thumb is after a while :<

"Why should Apple spend the time and money creating something that it doesn't need to."

the R&D costs for a new mice wont exceed those they had for the G5 ;p
(what i wanted to say: it wont be a problem i guess)


"So quit waiting for Apple to make an uber mouse, spend $15 and you can find a nice multi-button, scroll wheel, optical mouse, or spend more money to get all the bells and whistles. "

i want it all in one package.
i dont wanna go out and buy a mouse, look if the mac drivers are shipped with it, argue that it doesnt look like the rest of us... eh the rest of my mac.

futher i want my mouse to be part of the 3yrs warrenty covered by applecare ;p

mkaake
Jan 15, 2004, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by ionas
it is NO old argument - it is a FACT that a 2nd or 3rd mouse button is missing.<snip>

dude, this is a thread for apple works.

in any event, i never knew about that feature to automatically format in MLA... I might have to play more on my sister's 'book...

matt

ionas
Jan 15, 2004, 10:11 AM
while i dislike ms and while office and its propertary ****ty formats are a pain in arse i dont see any better office package around for mac os x.

nomral office peeps need

Word
Exel
PowerPoint

(some need Access and some need Workgroup stuff)

if apple released an Office Suit, lets say for 49 or 99 ;p - shipped free with each major mac os x version that would include following - then there might be the right time for a switch:

-Word with all the most used features MS Word offers + support for the OpenOffice format + its own format that need to be opened + pdf editing capabilites + 100% ms word import and export of version 2k3, xp, 2k, 97, (95/6)

-Exel with all the most used features of MS exel + 100% import and export of version 2k3, xp, 2k, 97, (95/6) + capabilities or reading writing OOffice

-powerpoint, same as above :)

+ workgroup support, with checkins, checkouts, user based document comments, access and edititing right management and all the stuff.



if they really brought it out i would ship it for 49 or 99.

there would be the need for the server (to use the project/workgroup features)
if you worked in workgroups / companies which would bring in some money for the development.

for sure they could sell it for 99 :)



i guess the day apple releases such an app will never come ;p

but who knows.

ThomasJefferson
Jan 15, 2004, 10:28 AM
The are other alternatives.

Nisus writer has been updated for OSX, but it has a fraction of its former options. It can now use Word files for those who are interested. But, it will be awhile before it will be back to its former glory.

I am happy with Think Free on my iBook 600. It handles the basics. AppleWorks is just pathetic. Sad.

awulf
Jan 15, 2004, 10:29 AM
With Apple releasing this date it shows that Apple hasn't forgotten about AppleWorks and may be working on v7 as we speak.

bob_hearn
Jan 15, 2004, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by BenRoethig
The good news: AppleWorks is updated.
The bad news: It's still seriously outdated.

I wonder how many people actually still use AppleWorks. 6.0 isn't really that different than 3.0 that came with my old Performa 5200 (That came with some variety of System 7).

Actually 4.0 was the last version with any major new features. After that, all of the original developers left the project, and Apple basically put the project in maintenance mode. There were later negotiations for bringing the original team back, but they didn't quite pan out. More info at http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bob/clarisworks.php.

It's a real shame ClarisWorks/AppleWorks has been left to slowly decay. It used to be really cool, honest!

msfox
Jan 15, 2004, 10:49 AM
It's of interest that on the Apple home page iLife '04 is billed as "Microsoft Office for the rest of us." Odd that Apple make use of the Empire's name .... unless they are planning to scrap Appleworks and the new Office 11 will be more Apple-like, with services compatibility, integration with Address Book and iCal, etc., with Apple conceding that Office is just going to be the default word processor / spreadsheet, etc., henceforth.

bousozoku
Jan 15, 2004, 10:49 AM
Well, I managed a kernel panic from the installer with other things running. :D

There were over 1300 things installed, mostly .htm files. Even in maintenance mode, I'm glad they're working on it minimally. I wish they'd fix the Japanese support though. Characters have been cut off since the Mac OS X version. :(

CrackedButter
Jan 15, 2004, 10:56 AM
I don't love this program nor hate it, i just hated the fact that scrolling wasn't incorporated into it, other than that its okay and all i need.

danieluk
Jan 15, 2004, 10:57 AM

hc00jw
Jan 15, 2004, 11:07 AM
I tried to install it, but the installer kept freezing on the "gathering information" step, and gave me the spinning wheel.

Looking forward to scroll wheel support once Apple fixes the installer problem

Originally posted by danieluk
I get this too....

I had this problem until I ejected my smb share from our gentoo linux box and my iPod from my desktop. It gathered the information pretty quickly after that!

Doctor Q
Jan 15, 2004, 11:57 AM
Apple read my mind. I've been using AppleWorks more than usual the last two weeks, and I was getting more and more annoyed at the lack of scrollwheel support. Given how old it is, I really wasn't expecting Apple to make changes to this product. Thanks, Apple!

Photorun
Jan 15, 2004, 12:04 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Krizoitz
I really wish people would give up on this old argument. There is no reason for Apple to make a mouse with a scroll wheel. There isno reason for them to make a mouse with multiple buttons either.

No market? You're kidding right? Dude, there's 100s of people I know or am acquainted with, designers, graphic professionals, and music professionals who have G4s and G5s and GUESS WHAT.... third party mice because a single mouse SLOWS YOU DOWN! If I know hundreds (and I'm not joe popular, just work around graphics groups a lot) there's thousands and thousands in the market for the mouse that you think nobody wants? Do you use Photoshop with one button? Dreamweaver? Let me tell ya then how to save up to 50% of your time working with a two button mouse. And most people that have scroll wheels use them. Once you go to a two plus button mouse with a scroll wheel you will NOT go back... trust me.

So yes, Apple should sell one.

Oh, wait, this is an AppleWorks thread. Uh. Yes. Crickets. The Chirping. Silence.

Apple shouldn't dump it's suite of basic office tools, so they're, what's the term, lackluster. For basic people with basic tastes, kinda like people who'd want a basic one button mouse, it's good. Now for pros out there, AppleWorks is the one button mouse of applications of it's ilk, now if Apple made something more akin to a two button mouse of applications, like an iOffice... hmmm....

SiliconAddict
Jan 15, 2004, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Krizoitz


So quit waiting for Apple to make an uber mouse, spend $15 and you can find a nice multi-button, scroll wheel, optical mouse, or spend more money to get all the bells and whistles.

As others will doubtlessly point out: What about laptops!??! I don't want to be carrying around a mouse with me everywhere I go and to be brutally harsh if someone is stupid enough that they can't figure out what a right mouse button does after 5 minutes of use they need to be cut out of the gene pool anyways. Survival of the fittest digital style. They need to be put into a foam room because they probably hurt themselves on all those sharp corners out there in the big bad world.
For the love of god people this is a right mouse click! We aren’t talking brain surgery here. ALL functionality of a mouse should remain on the mouse. Having a secondary key that needs to be pressed on a keyboard to use the mouse is counterintuitive. The fact of the matter is that the single button mouse is being called easier because its what people know. Have a Windows person jump on a Mac for the first time and I can almost guarantee you they will be baffled with the what was it? alt? ctrl? button mouse button combo to right click. God knows the first time I walked into the apple store it took me 3 minutes to figure out which button it was that gave you the right mouse click. LOL its not even marked on the keyboard. So much for ease of use.

miata99
Jan 15, 2004, 12:06 PM
Can anyone help me get the AppleWorks update .smi icon off of my desktop?

I tried to download the update, but IE crashed.
I decided I didn't need it anyway, so I ditched it from the Download Manager.
Now I can't throw away the icon.
I get a message saying, in effect, the item is being used by another task right now.

Anyone have a suggestion?

tia

SiliconAddict
Jan 15, 2004, 12:06 PM
OK back on topic. Appleworks. I disagree with people stating that they need to ****can the app. I look at Appleworks as I see MS Works. A slimmed down productivity suit. I think Apple should update this but only so far as to make an app for those not willing to shell out $300+/- on MS Office. Apple should NOT compete head to head with MS Office but they can cash in on those who will not spend the cash to use MS Office. $80 for Appleworks is a very fair price IF they did some serious revamping to the software.

PS- I also think Apple should get into the personal financing application business. As easy as I’ve found some of the app that handle personal finance to be I would like to see what Apple could do with such a beast.

Photorun
Jan 15, 2004, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
OK back on topic. Appleworks. I disagree with people stating that they need to ****can the app. I look at Appleworks as I see MS Works. A slimmed down productivity suit. I think Apple should update this but only so far as to make an app for those not willing to shell out $300+/- on MS Office. Apple should NOT compete head to head with MS Office but they can cash in on those who will not spend the cash to use MS Office. $80 for Appleworks is a very fair price IF they did some serious revamping to the software.

You go SA!!! Both counts, keeping AW around AND your notes above that on the mouse debate... BRILLIANT! (I sound like a Guinness commercial). Here here! I'll need to cut and paste this on my Stickies 3.0 so next time this type of mouse button argument comes up I have beatiful cannon fodder to send at these whining "I like one button" peeps.

PS Yes, that is odd there no way a person would know the option key is "like" a second mouse button.

iMeowbot
Jan 15, 2004, 12:17 PM
The scroll wheel thing was annoyance #1 with Appleworks.

If the screen font handling could be brought up to date, and the program's habit of exporting bitmaps at 72 dpi and nothing else would get addressed, I don't think I'd really have any complaints at all with it.

ptd
Jan 15, 2004, 12:19 PM
WHile I would love for a solid office suite by Apple, it will be a long time until it will come out. One of the fundimental reasons that people shy away from the Mac is that the myth of incompatability is still going strong. Apple needs a solid version of Office to entice new buyers from the other side. If Apple releases its own version, MS my pull development from the Mac (or at least put less effort in the Mac versions). While it will be possible to release a competing product eventually when they enough marketshare to feel comfortable, it is currently against their own self interest to release an office suite and makes much more sense to keep working on iLife to make something trully unique...

j33pd0g
Jan 15, 2004, 12:30 PM
Ditch Appleworks please.

Make a package named OfficePro. You get: A notes-like db, TextEdit Pro, a layout app, a spreadsheet app. Price: $999.99 (5 computer license)

My dream:

I would like Apple to buy Quark and then stop development on the PC side. Offer all Quark 4 users an upgrade to the OS X version at a price of $299... or better yet, have that be the layout app.:)

jeffgarden
Jan 15, 2004, 12:30 PM
it does "gathering information" for a retardedly long time but it does eventually stop and install.

hey at least it launches really fast for a program with ghetto versions of MS Office apps all-in-one like that.

pkradd
Jan 15, 2004, 12:35 PM
After downloading it wouldn't install, a "code" problem or something. I'll just wait for the Software Update panel to show it. Currently, the server is down (so I suspect they're getting it ready). Appleworks is useful for most Mac users. It's not with all the bells and whistles, but it's fine. If you don't like it, fine. Don't use it! Mac Office is being updated by Microsoft but I just refuse to use M$ products when I have an alternative.

rotorblade
Jan 15, 2004, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Chip NoVaMac
One for some of us like the look and feel of Apple products over others.

Yeah! I really loved that puck mouse too! :-)

rotorblade
Jan 15, 2004, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by steveh
Might not be the installer's problem...just worked here, perfectly.

Same here. Installed perfectly.

nagromme
Jan 15, 2004, 01:16 PM
Not to interrupt the 1-button mouse debate... ;)


For the record, I am an AppleWorks users. It reads and writes Word documents (so doed Panther TextEdit now, to a lesser degree.) and unlike the REAL Word, it doesn't grab random private data off of hard disks and attach it (easily viewable) to unrelated documents!

It needs to be replaced, but meanwhile it's highly functional (faster for some than Word, due to simplicity)--and a free maintenance update is hardly a bad thing.

rotorblade
Jan 15, 2004, 01:20 PM
The one feature I miss the most in AppleWorks is Publish & Subscribe. Bring back P&S and I'll buy AppleWorks for the rest of the machines.

SiliconAddict
Jan 15, 2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by nagromme
unlike the REAL Word, it doesn't grab random private data off of hard disks and attach it (easily viewable) to unrelated documents!



Please cite documentation of this random private info attachment. I'm aware that MS Office for Windows had, read: In the past, the ability to track a person because it embeds distinguishing characteristic info into the file so a file can be tracked back to the user or the computer it was used on, but this is the first I've heard it embeds private info into the file. :confused:

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/1999/03-08custletter2.asp

AFAIK this has not been an issue since Office '97.
What info? You are suggesting random. How so? Does Office just pick strings of text from various places on the system and embeds it into the file? :rolleyes:

rotorblade
Jan 15, 2004, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by nagromme
For the record, I am an AppleWorks users.

I'm with you nagromme! I do 99.999% of my work in AppleWorks and print the documents to pdf. Other than the document summary giving away the fact that it was created using AppleWorks, no one knows the difference.

I do have Word, which I occasionally use. Yet, my experience has been that most people who send me Word documents could have accomplished the same task with an RTF document created with TextEdit. This doesn't hold true for everyone, of course. But it does apply to the majority in my case.

TEG
Jan 15, 2004, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by nagromme
Not to interrupt the 1-button mouse debate... ;)


For the record, I am an AppleWorks users. It reads and writes Word documents (so doed Panther TextEdit now, to a lesser degree.) and unlike the REAL Word, it doesn't grab random private data off of hard disks and attach it (easily viewable) to unrelated documents!

It needs to be replaced, but meanwhile it's highly functional (faster for some than Word, due to simplicity)--and a free maintenance update is hardly a bad thing.

Plus it is only 71MB, whereas Office is at least 280MB.

I love Appleworks, its the only program for creating web graphics, that I can then modify and stylize in Photoshop. AW is a great program, I just wish AW7 would come out with a grammar check, that is all it needs, and maybe some Web stuff, like Claris Home Page, but make sure it is not entigrated into the Word Processor. I hate getting Word Documents printed from friends and instead of a URL there is the entry "bookmark reference not found" or "URL not Loaded". *SMEG*

TEG

Snowy_River
Jan 15, 2004, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
As others will doubtlessly point out: What about laptops!??!

Oh, please, don't get me started on a second mouse button on a laptop. I've spent time using both Mac and Windows laptops (I'm writing this on a PowerBook right now), and I CAN'T STAND the way Windows laptops implement a second mouse button. It's inconvenient, and difficult to use. Yes, this is my opinion, but my point is that not everyone is in your camp. If a decent way to implement a second mouse button on a laptop is come up with then I'd be all for it, at least for the PowerBooks (iBooks fall into a different catagory that I still think it makes sense to keep things simple). But for now, I don't see any real problem with using a modifier key to get to contextual menus. As a Power User, many of the apps I use I have to use a modifier key regularly, so it's far from counter intuitive to me...

starejosel
Jan 15, 2004, 03:14 PM
Several people have written:

I tried to install it, but the installer kept freezing on the "gathering information" step, and gave me the spinning wheel.
___________________________

I had the same problem. Repairing permissions fixed it. Might have been a fluke, but worth a try.

fearless
Jan 15, 2004, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by settledown
Appleworks updated??

I forgot about that App about 3 years ago. I use textedit(for quick letters or simple write ups), or Word(mainly to open the documents created in the business world).

If I am going to write a grocery list or The Great American Novel, Appleworks doesnt even cross my mind
I still use it - run invoices from the database module, write letters, do stuff... I find Word and Excel needlessly complex for these tasks. Sure, AW has taken some wrong turns and become big and buggy (like Starting Points - ughh!). I actually hark back to the halcyon days of ClarisWorks Office...

aafuss1
Jan 15, 2004, 03:48 PM
I would luike AW 6 for windows made vailable to all users (like they did with the emac) and available tp non-us buyers.and is there updaters for international users outside the us yet?

geerlingguy
Jan 15, 2004, 03:57 PM
I don't know about anyone else, but it seems that startup time has decreased by quite a bit (used to take ~6 secs, now ~2 secs on iBook G4 933). Also, the font menu, when in actual fonts, is much quicker popping up.

Oh - I LOVE the scrolling wheel support. I always would use it when in AppleWorks, nothing would happen, then I'd be like "What's wrong?", then I'd remember that AppleWorks didn't support the scroll wheel.

btw - Installed in a jiffy on iBook G4 OS 10.3.2! :)

mhar4
Jan 15, 2004, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by geerlingguy
I don't know about anyone else, but it seems that startup time has decreased by quite a bit (used to take ~6 secs, now ~2 secs on iBook G4 933). Also, the font menu, when in actual fonts, is much quicker popping up.

btw - Installed in a jiffy on iBook G4 OS 10.3.2! :)

The International version is up on the Apple UK site, and I can report the same. No problems installing and much faster start-up.

MrMacMan
Jan 15, 2004, 04:28 PM
Yeah what happened to the Appleworks Devolpment team?

Someone killed them?

Jeez.


Where is appleworks go wrong?

Not having grammar support is one... and not 1000% compatibality with MS Word is another (yes 1000%)

joemama
Jan 15, 2004, 04:36 PM
WHo uses AppleWorks?

I have taught semester-long classes to high school students using just AppleWorks. It's a great little program that does so much, more importantly introduces students to the basics of several computer skills. ie. painting, vector drawing, spreadsheets, pwerpoint type presentations.

It really is a great STARTER program - it is what it is, and it does this perfectly.

After this I move the kids to Photoshop, Illustrator, DreamWeaver and they understand them SO much better.

I still use it, I am just waiting for an actual HTML program within it, something like FrontPage/PageMill.

And it's cheap!

mhar4
Jan 15, 2004, 04:40 PM
Nice to see so many die-hard AppleWorks fans on this forum.

shamino
Jan 15, 2004, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Chip NoVaMac
As a realtive newbie, can someone explain why Apple hasn't even offered this as an option. I currently use a Graphire pad and would like an Apple alternative to the mouse.
Tech support costs.

If you know anybody who works at a help desk, ask them how many people get confused when told to "right-click" on something. These people are a lot more common than you might like to believe.

As soon as Apple offers such a device as an option, complete idiot newbies will be told (by their naive geek friends) that they must choose this option. And they will then find themselves confused, and Apple will pay a lot (in terms of support calls) to deal with them.

It's far easier to just continue shipping their existing one-button mice and let those who really care go buy their own upgrades. It's not like mice are expensive devices.

autrefois
Jan 15, 2004, 05:01 PM
Somebody who shall remain nameless finally gave up on Appleworks yesterday and bought Microsoft Office, even though he hates Microsoft and Office.

AW 6.2.7 had problems, including spacing problems when printing (what you saw was often not what you got), in particular with documents with tabs. Anyone curious about what I mean can check the tons of messages people have posted in Apple discussions, assuming they haven't been deleted (the messages, not the people!).

This version of Word (v.X) is much better than other ones I've used, and it's funny because it translates AW flawlessly so far, except if the original file has a pdf in it (which Word doesn't do apparently). So Word so far seems to do AW better than AW does!

It certainly does a lot better converting AW files than Appleworks does at converting Word files. That was the other factor in me buying Office. I will now be reading tons of .doc files this semester, and with AW not even doing spacing right with .cwk files I wanted something more reliable and less time-consuming.

The whole iLife "It's like Microsoft Office for the rest of your life" had me convinced that Apple would not compete with Office/Word any more and was just going to let AW die out.

I haven't had time to try out the rest of Office yet, but I'm happy with Word so far. I suppose I will download AW 6.2.9 to see if it fixed the spacing problem or other ones. Curses! Maybe I bailed a day too soon.

shamino
Jan 15, 2004, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by ionas
"So quit waiting for Apple to make an uber mouse, spend $15 and you can find a nice multi-button, scroll wheel, optical mouse, or spend more money to get all the bells and whistles. "

i want it all in one package.
i dont wanna go out and buy a mouse, look if the mac drivers are shipped with it, argue that it doesnt look like the rest of us... eh the rest of my mac.
Waaah wahhh wahhh. I'm too much of a stuck up prig to simply grab a $20 Microsoft mouse off the shelf at the Apple Store at the same time I bought the computer. There's something mystical about getting it in the same box with the computer and I won't be satisfied with anything that doesn't come in that box.

Get a life, crybaby.

hc00jw
Jan 15, 2004, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by shamino
Waaah wahhh wahhh. I'm too much of a stuck up prig to simply grab a $20 Microsoft mouse off the shelf at the Apple Store at the same time I bought the computer. There's something mystical about getting it in the same box with the computer and I won't be satisfied with anything that doesn't come in that box.

Get a life, crybaby.

Your missing the point. You are forced to pay for something that you are going to throw away (the one button mouse) which is a waste of our time and money, and a waste of apples time (well, they still make a profit on it, but an immoral profit)... then you have to waste more time and money to buy something that should come with the computer as an option!

Whether you can pick up a $20 mouse or not isn't the point. Whether most people will be confused with it or not, is not the point. The point is, it should be an option, end of.

Whenever I pick up a new mac, I do two things... Get a two button mouse (or keep the old one, depending on where my old mac went), and upgrade the RAM. I can forgive them for skimping on RAM because a) It's dirt cheap and b) it keeps their prices down (maybe I couldn't have forgiven them when they were shipping OS X macs with 64-128 MB, but that's a different story), I cannot forgive them for charging me for yet *another* one button mouse that I'll never use!

Oh, and keep your playground talk to the playground. Cheers

coolsoldier
Jan 15, 2004, 05:21 PM
There needs to be a native cocoa office suite. I don't care if it's AppleWorks or Office or something totally different, but it has to have a reasonable feature set, look and act like every other Cocoa program (streamlined, standard interface, support for system services, etc.) and have word, excel, and ppt document support.
I would buy this suite at almost any price. But it does not exist.

I would love to see someone (possibly Apple, possibly not) make a new office suite just to show off all the fancy features of Cocoa. :)

mhar4
Jan 15, 2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by coolsoldier
There needs to be a native cocoa office suite.

I would love to see someone (possibly Apple, possibly not) make a new office suite just to show off all the fancy features of Cocoa. :)

Much as I like AppleWorks, this is absolutely true. I guess, Apple thinks AW is enough to fill the productivity hole in their software lineup, but it is in need of replacement.

billyboy
Jan 15, 2004, 05:28 PM
AW is excellent for someone like me who just sends text either as a PDF if it is a finished article, or as a Word doc or rtf doc if it has to be edited by someone else. Unfortunately AW falls flat on its face for anyone using a hint of an image in a document that has to be mailed off for editing.

I wonder like someone else commented, that MS Office for the rest of your life is possibly an admission that there isnt going to be a true Word compatible package for the Mac coming from Apple.

Does anyone know if any of the budding open source Office apps are totally MS compatible. If not, AW (plus MS Word) is pretty handy for most people's needs. It may be worth hanging on to until Apple have 95% market share and everyone recognises a .cwk file .

DING I just thought, AW is available for Windows. Apple could get it up to speed for the 21st Century and get it out there bundled with iTunes. Another Trojan horse.

Omad0n
Jan 15, 2004, 05:33 PM
Another AppleWorks user here. I love the thing personally, and fread when I have to use Word, say at school or something. AW does everything I need, but I've always found that it's inability to not scroll with the scroll mouse button was a pain in the arse. Now though it's there and I couldn't be happier :)

KCK
Jan 15, 2004, 05:44 PM
Another Appleworks user here. It has always been able to do everything I have needed it to.

No problem installing the upgrade earlier today.

visor
Jan 15, 2004, 06:23 PM
I realized that I deleted appleworks some time ago because I desperately needed some discspace, and appleworks is completely useless.

PowerBook User
Jan 15, 2004, 06:45 PM
I'm glad Apple is improving AppleWorks. I thought they forgot about it. But where is AppleWorks 7?:confused:

rdowns
Jan 15, 2004, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by msfox
It's of interest that on the Apple home page iLife '04 is billed as "Microsoft Office for the rest of us." Odd that Apple make use of the Empire's name .... unless they are planning to scrap Appleworks and the new Office 11 will be more Apple-like, with services compatibility, integration with Address Book and iCal, etc., with Apple conceding that Office is just going to be the default word processor / spreadsheet, etc., henceforth.

It's not billed as Office for the rest of us. Here's the text:

Just as Microsoft Office has the tools you need to create an outline, a budget or a presentation, iLife offers all of the tools you need for your work outside the office. When you’re ready to kick back and create something spectacular, there’s no better resource than iLife.

Cheese
Jan 15, 2004, 07:24 PM
NTAC...(not that anyone cares...) BUT< I use AW to write features for a magazine where everyone in the building (except accounting for some unknown reason??) is working on an FP iMac. they layout with quark, but I am across the country from the office, working on a DV400 iMac and having a great time with AW6.2.7. It rocks compared to any MS app I have used, which may admittedly be a limited and outdated comparison. I do not think IMHO that anyone can argue with the great deal of getting an MS Office product for $35, but I recieved AW with the purchase of my iMac and I have not needed to invest further in it to be able to generate my swill for the editors at large. I have saved quantum time units, while nimbly navagating the AW waters, seldom visiting the help menu for anything. There may be limits, but I for one, am glad that AW is continuing in it's well pounded path, and takning the good with the bad, I haven't seen anything as intuitive and simple... much less anything that has lasted this long without the need for total hardware revamping. Sign me up for all of the updates... AW 4ever!!

legion
Jan 15, 2004, 07:28 PM
Please Apple, mouse wheel scrolling in Windows iTunes now... please....

mkrishnan
Jan 15, 2004, 07:45 PM
Two things:

Newbie-esque question: Should the Software Update item in the Apple menu catch updates to Appleworks? When I ran it, it did not come up with this update. Is it because it is not considered part of Panther, or because it just hasn't been flagged for the udpate checker yet?

Second thing -- I have MS Office and AW (to add to the ed cost debate, the license is $70 at my school so it's middle of the road...). Right now the thing I use AW for is Japanese language support because it's more transparent (b/c of Unicode) in AW than in Office....

a1291762
Jan 15, 2004, 08:17 PM
Subject says it all. I got AW 5 when I bought my iMac several years ago. Purchased AW 6 when it came out. I also got another copy of AW 6 when I bought my wife's iBook.

It cost me nothing to get AW 6 running natively under OS X. Microsoft never released a patch for Office 2003 to make it native. I bought Office many years ago at a student price. I don't qualify for that anymore so I have to pay over $1000AUD to get essentially the same programs I have now converted to OS X native ones. No thanks.

I've occasionally used Office to look at .pps files or .doc files that don't work with AW but that's about it.

AW does everything I've ever needed it to. This update will fix my biggest complaint (lack of scroll support). Hopefully, it'll also enable the Quartz font smoothing (since Silk is now shareware and I'm too stingy to pay for programs that used to be free).

Link

Krizoitz
Jan 15, 2004, 08:59 PM
I said there is no market for APPLE to make a multibutton mouse because there are tons of companies who already make really good ones. You said it yourself all the designers you know allready have multi-button mice, and my guess is each one of them has there own preferences on what kind they like, wired/wireless, trackball/mouse, 2button/20button, etc. Why should apple use their resources to do something that is allready being done well. I'd rather have them keep improving things like the iPod, than wasting time on a mouse.

Originally posted by Photorun
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Krizoitz
I really wish people would give up on this old argument. There is no reason for Apple to make a mouse with a scroll wheel. There isno reason for them to make a mouse with multiple buttons either.

No market? You're kidding right? Dude, there's 100s of people I know or am acquainted with, designers, graphic professionals, and music professionals who have G4s and G5s and GUESS WHAT.... third party mice because a single mouse SLOWS YOU DOWN! If I know hundreds (and I'm not joe popular, just work around graphics groups a lot) there's thousands and thousands in the market for the mouse that you think nobody wants? Do you use Photoshop with one button? Dreamweaver? Let me tell ya then how to save up to 50% of your time working with a two button mouse. And most people that have scroll wheels use them. Once you go to a two plus button mouse with a scroll wheel you will NOT go back... trust me.

So yes, Apple should sell one.

Oh, wait, this is an AppleWorks thread. Uh. Yes. Crickets. The Chirping. Silence.

Apple shouldn't dump it's suite of basic office tools, so they're, what's the term, lackluster. For basic people with basic tastes, kinda like people who'd want a basic one button mouse, it's good. Now for pros out there, AppleWorks is the one button mouse of applications of it's ilk, now if Apple made something more akin to a two button mouse of applications, like an iOffice... hmmm....

aafuss1
Jan 15, 2004, 09:48 PM
Microsoft Works for Windows is updated every 2 years-version 8 should be coming soon. I like it because it has a portfolio for storing text/images and a my projects organiser-AppleWorks should have these too.

MegaSignal
Jan 15, 2004, 09:53 PM
It's always good to see some interest in AW, as it is a great little app that does so much.

But the lack of a GOOD labeling program (most on version tracker are buggy and just plain wierd and hard to use), I truly anticipate the day when AW will have a great little tie-in between the database and whatever else to give me a stable way of creating labels from a database. It's rediculous that the best labeling program is a freebie from Avery that will only work on a PC! A powerful computer such as my Dual 1.25 astonishes me the way it handles digital video, audio, and other complex tasks...and yes, life is sometimes not fair, BUT THIS ONE GLARING OMISSION DRIVES ME NUTS!

I'll still take this upgrade...hopefully it'll install OK...

VIREBEL661
Jan 15, 2004, 10:40 PM
OK, granted it hasn't been updated for a long time, but to me AppleWorks is still a great application - I mean what else do you want? I really prefer using it over Word... I feel that many software companies lull us into an upgrade cycle that we expect - I mean we EXPECT to pay for upgrades every so many months. To graphics pros out there, is there really THAT much difference between PhotoShop 5 and 7 (except X compatability)? What about the latest Quark? Dreamweaver MX and Dreamweaver MX 2004??? I dunno - I think the upgrade thing is kind of silly, even though I always like to run the latest and greatest, for whatever reason...

simX
Jan 15, 2004, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Please cite documentation of this random private info attachment. I'm aware that MS Office for Windows had, read: In the past, the ability to track a person because it embeds distinguishing characteristic info into the file so a file can be tracked back to the user or the computer it was used on, but this is the first I've heard it embeds private info into the file. :confused:

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/1999/03-08custletter2.asp

AFAIK this has not been an issue since Office '97.
What info? You are suggesting random. How so? Does Office just pick strings of text from various places on the system and embeds it into the file? :rolleyes:

Actually, what you suggested is just what it did. Microsoft Office picked up random data from your disk and embedded them in Microsoft Office files. However, last I heard, this issue was with Microsoft Office 98 for Mac. I'm not sure if the bug has been carried over to the Mac OS X version or not.

When in doubt, As the Apple Turns (http://www.appleturns.com/scene/?id=1400) is your friend when searching for Mac history.

solvs
Jan 15, 2004, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by legion
Please Apple, mouse wheel scrolling in Windows iTunes now... please....

Ummm... (fires up iTunes on my PC) It already does.

gooddog
Jan 16, 2004, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by tjwett
HAHAHA:D

that's awesome. LOL.

***************************

Actually, STICKIES suckies.

Real stickies can be stuck to any page or document, not just on a physical desktop.

A GOOD stickie app' would allow us to put a sticky on any page/place on any document and it would remain there when that page is opened, until we removed it , using global removes, display, sort, find, etc. or local command.

I contacted the authors years ago about this and they said they were working on it.

Remember how Mac OS 8 would let you associate or LINK folders so that opening one would bring up the other ?

---gooddog

alamar
Jan 16, 2004, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by Krizoitz
I really wish people would give up on this old argument. There is no reason for Apple to make a mouse with a scroll wheel. There isno reason for them to make a mouse with multiple buttons either.

Why?

Simplicity. The original designers of the Macintosh wanted the user to be able to learn to use the computer simply by watching. If you have multiple buttons its not as easy to learn. And yes I realize that learning to use a multi-button mouse isn't THAT hard but there are more factors.

Need. The average computer user doesn't NEED a second button or a scroll wheel. Yes those of us who regularly visit these forums probably do, but you have to remember, we aren't a very good sample of the whole Mac community. We represent the high end users, so its a bad idea to assume that our needs reflect the needs of all Mac users.

No market. Face it, there are a TON of great third party mice/trackballs out there. Kensington, Logitech, Macally, Microsoft even make great USB mice from the most basic to the most advanced of features in a huge price range. Why should Apple spend the time and money creating something that it doesn't need to.

So quit waiting for Apple to make an uber mouse, spend $15 and you can find a nice multi-button, scroll wheel, optical mouse, or spend more money to get all the bells and whistles.


We pay enough for the hardware to get a multi button mouse. The Mac is a bulldoser posing as a snow shovel. Sure it is easy to use, and intuitive, but hardcore users can also use it for hardcore applications. For a desktop that you can pump up to and above $13000 without even getting any extra software or an extended warranty you should be able to select a 3 or 5 button mouse from the web site, not open the box and toss out the nifty looking but less powerful one button you bought for no reason. I can ditch the modem, why not the mouse. (Just my opinion.)

• Dual 2GHz PowerPC G5
• 8GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 8x1GB
• 2x250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
• ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
• Apple Cinema HD Display (23" flat panel)
• Apple Cinema HD Display (23" flat panel) + Apple DVI to ADC Adapter
• AirPort Extreme Card
• Bluetooth Module
• 56k V.92 internal modem
• SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
• Fibre Channel PCI Card (w/SFP-SFP cable)
• Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
• Mac OS X - U.S. English
• iSight
• Logitech Z-680 THX 5.1 Speakers & Monster 2-meter Cable
• AirPort Extreme Base Station (with modem and antenna port)



Subtotal $14,261.95

SiliconAddict
Jan 16, 2004, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by Snowy_River
As a Power User, many of the apps I use I have to use a modifier key regularly, so it's far from counter intuitive to me...

You yourself made my point. As I had stated previously if you use something enough you automatically assume its the easiest method of doing something.

Let me ask one final question on the topic. Lets assume we found someone with ZERO PC or Mac experience. Which system do you think they would pick up the right/alternate mouse click first? Mac that has no labeling, know way of even knowing that there is an alternate/right mouse click or a 2 button mouse where after 10-15 clicks an average, relatively intelligent, individual should pick up on it. Again its not brain surgery here.
I wonder how many Mac users are out there that don’t even know of the existence of the alternate/right mouse click. You are right. It isn’t non-intuitive. Its an altogether hidden feature.
You like the single mouse. That’s great you can live with that. But coming from a PC environment I can’t live without a 2 button mouse. I’ve NEVER had problems with the mice buttons on my laptops. Its 1/2 an inch difference in spacing from the right mouse to the left. *shrugs* Its always been fine for me.
Fortunately I think I have a workaround for when I get my PowerBook. Double tap the touchpad for left click, mouse for right. From what I understand you can program these for the touchpad and mouse button so there is somewhat of a workaround. I’m still going to have to carry a BT mouse with me because of this.

Pepzhez
Jan 16, 2004, 05:12 AM
There needs to be a native cocoa office suite. I don't care if it's AppleWorks or Office or something totally different, but it has to have a reasonable feature set, look and act like every other Cocoa program (streamlined, standard interface, support for system services, etc.) and have word, excel, and ppt document support.

Amen! Here's the thing that drives me absolutely nuts: aside from TextEdit, there is currently no OS X writing application which supports unicode! Appleworks doesn't, Office X doesn't - zilch, zip, nada. I mean, come on, even iTunes supports unicode! OS X has been around for a few years now, yet we're still stuck with the same crummy carbon patches (Appleworks AND MS Office).

If you do any work in linguistics on a Mac and need characters with macrons, your only option is to use TextEdit. This is utterly insane.

Perhaps MS Office 2004 will be a Cocoa app, but I hate MS Office with a passion: bloated, expensive (OK, there's always the education discount but it's still a bloated, evil mess), unpredictable and just all around UGLY. I can't stand looking at it, as it has all the aesthetic charm of an IRS tax form (same design team, perhaps). And I'm sure that Office 2004 will be even more bloated than the current version. How depressing it is to see that app in my Applications folder, taking up 250+ MB. And I'm not paying one more cent for this cursed application!

I wish there would be a proper cocoa version of Appleworks, but I doubt that will ever happen. A shame, because I used to love Appleworks. It's sad that Apple has just let it stagnate.

At this point, I'm looking for alternatives. I hear that OpenOffice is a decent app and it does support unicode. Has anyone ever tried it? I'd much rather use something, anything besides MS Office!


[Far be it for me to upset the general drift of this thread, and I know everyone is just dying to know, so, yes, all three of my Macs have Logitech 4-button trackballs. So there!]

MOFS
Jan 16, 2004, 08:21 AM
Once again Apple offers a feature...but then doesn't allow us non-north Americans to use it. If you read the fine-print, the update won't work on European (or Asian or African or...) Macs.

Back to TextEdit for me...:(

Pepzhez
Jan 16, 2004, 08:35 AM
Wow! I was wrong! Here is the most amazing word processor I've ever come across, Mellel:

http://www.redlers.com

ALL MY PROBLEMS ARE SOLVED AND THEN SOME. It's cocoa, it blows away M$ Word, blows away Appleworks, has amazing features and - get this - costs only $29.

And even better - it only takes up a whopping 14 MB of HD space. Unbelievable!

THIS is what I dreamed a modern Appleworks would be like.

Sorry to sound like an ad - really, I only downloaded this a few hours ago, but I'm really astounded with this application. Download it and check it out for yourself. I don't see how any Mac user wouldn't be impressed with this app.

JJTiger1
Jan 16, 2004, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by bob_hearn
Actually 4.0 was the last version with any major new features.
{snippage}
It's a real shame ClarisWorks/AppleWorks has been left to slowly decay. It used to be really cool, honest!

I'm still using ClarisWorks 4.0. Box and all, with my G4 and Panther.

It elevates my second monitor to the same height as my primary monitor.:D

=-=
JJ

coolsoldier
Jan 16, 2004, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by Pepzhez
Wow! I was wrong! Here is the most amazing word processor I've ever come across, Mellel:

http://www.redlers.com

ALL MY PROBLEMS ARE SOLVED AND THEN SOME. It's cocoa, it blows away M$ Word, blows away Appleworks, has amazing features and - get this - costs only $29.

And even better - it only takes up a whopping 14 MB of HD space. Unbelievable!

THIS is what I dreamed a modern Appleworks would be like.

Sorry to sound like an ad - really, I only downloaded this a few hours ago, but I'm really astounded with this application. Download it and check it out for yourself. I don't see how any Mac user wouldn't be impressed with this app.

That is a very impressive program. Now all it needs is .doc support!

zamyatin
Jan 16, 2004, 03:04 PM
The way overstated hockey phrase from the business world, about skating to where the puck is going, not where it is now, comes to mind.

Attempting compatibility with MS Office is useful in the short term. Being completely compatible with OpenOffice is a requirement in the long term. Please make it so with the next version of AppleWorks! Even use the OpenOffice file formats as the default for AW -- they are completely open and fully documented, and can be shared with OOo on four major platforms, as well as with AbiWord on Linux, KWrite is adopting them, etc, etc.

Everyone is moving toward OpenOffice. When the tipping point arrives, MS Word will fall off the end of the world and OOo will be supreme! Get ready...

zamyatin
Jan 16, 2004, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by Pepzhez
At this point, I'm looking for alternatives. I hear that OpenOffice is a decent app and it does support unicode. Has anyone ever tried it? I'd much rather use something, anything besides MS Office!

Yes, OpenOffice is coming along on Mac OSX. It's not at a final version yet, which is frustrating, but it is definitely usable. There are several test versions in development; I recommend using NeoOffice/J since it has the best GUI at the moment. It's based on OOo 1.0.1, which is behind the current 1.1 release.

Start here:
http://www.planamesa.com/neojava/en/index.php

Doctor Q
Jan 16, 2004, 03:11 PM
When I installed the AppleWorks update on an older Mac OS 8.6 system, it prompted me to install QuickTime Authoring. I wonder what that was about.

slpdprvd
Jan 16, 2004, 03:48 PM
What do you mean there is no need and no market? Average computer users use contextual menus on a daily basis in a Windows environment. Granted, I love my mac infinitely more, but it's time Apple just moved on in its stubborn and archaic love for one-button mice. Moreover, there is definitely a market for two-button and scroll mice from Apple. What mac user would not purchase such a mouse from Apple rather than Microsoft, Belkin, etc. The very fact that the mouse will most likely match and conform to Apple's fashion sensibility is more than reason to purchase it.

Originally posted by Krizoitz
I really wish people would give up on this old argument. There is no reason for Apple to make a mouse with a scroll wheel. There isno reason for them to make a mouse with multiple buttons either.

Why?

Simplicity. The original designers of the Macintosh wanted the user to be able to learn to use the computer simply by watching. If you have multiple buttons its not as easy to learn. And yes I realize that learning to use a multi-button mouse isn't THAT hard but there are more factors.

Need. The average computer user doesn't NEED a second button or a scroll wheel. Yes those of us who regularly visit these forums probably do, but you have to remember, we aren't a very good sample of the whole Mac community. We represent the high end users, so its a bad idea to assume that our needs reflect the needs of all Mac users.

No market. Face it, there are a TON of great third party mice/trackballs out there. Kensington, Logitech, Macally, Microsoft even make great USB mice from the most basic to the most advanced of features in a huge price range. Why should Apple spend the time and money creating something that it doesn't need to.

So quit waiting for Apple to make an uber mouse, spend $15 and you can find a nice multi-button, scroll wheel, optical mouse, or spend more money to get all the bells and whistles.

Snowy_River
Jan 16, 2004, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
You yourself made my point. As I had stated previously if you use something enough you automatically assume its the easiest method of doing something.

Let me ask one final question on the topic. Lets assume we found someone with ZERO PC or Mac experience. Which system do you think they would pick up the right/alternate mouse click first?

Well, in point of fact, I've helped set several people up with new computers when they've never used a computer before. I've helped them with both Macs and PCs. In general, I've recieved more calls for help from the PC newbies than from the Mac newbies. Why? Because the interface on Mac OS doesn't need the contextual menus. Everything you can do from the contextual menus you can also do from an actual menu. So, the Mac newbies are able to see what they want to do much faster. It's far easier for them. Now, if the graduate from being a newbie and start to explore some of the more advanced features, great! Then they can learn how to use contextual menus.

As a contrast, the PC people are forever looking for the proper widget to click to get at what they want. 'Do I look in the tool bar, the menu bar, or the stupid right click thingie?!?' It's a much more difficult system to learn, based on my experience with newbies.


... an alternate/right mouse click or a 2 button mouse where after 10-15 clicks an average, relatively intelligent, individual should pick up on it...

Again, I know several individuals that would take great insult with that comment, including my grandfather-in-law, who used to work for the Navy designing battleships, amoung other things. I certainly would not refer to him as anything other than quite intelligent.

You like the single mouse. That’s great you can live with that. But coming from a PC environment I can’t live without a 2 button mouse.

I never said that I like a one button mouse. All I ever said was that I can't stand multiple buttons on a track pad on a laptop. In point of fact, on my workstation I have a multi-button track ball. Actually, not only do I not like one button mice for my own use, I don't like mice at all. If I'm going to be doing any kind of serious work at a computer, I want a track ball. Does that mean that I think Apple should produce multi-button track balls for all of their computers? No. Not in the slightest. Why not? Because a mouse is easier for beginners to learn and use and because it's just as easy for me to go and get the track ball that suits me. After all, if I'm spending $3k on a computer, am I really going to complain about spending another $40 for the right interface tool? Not likely.

I’ve NEVER had problems with the mice buttons on my laptops. Its 1/2 an inch difference in spacing from the right mouse to the left. *shrugs* Its always been fine for me.

It's not the distance between them that's the problem for me. It's the placement. I typically rest my thumb across the button on the trackpad and navigate with my index finger. To reach the right button on Windows laptops, I have to shift my whole hand over to get my thumb to it (very impractical), or, on others, my thumb tends to rest at the joint between the two buttons, and clicking becomes a highly unpredictable affair. Now, maybe if there was a button along each side of the track pad, so the right edge button could be the right click, and I could hit it with my ring finger, that might just work well. But, as I said, I'm not against multiple buttons on PowerBooks (or even, for that matter, multi-button mice available for Power Macs - I just think that the consumer line is well aimed with simplicity being a key feature), I'm just against any configuration that I've seen so far.

Fortunately I think I have a workaround for when I get my PowerBook. Double tap the touchpad for left click, mouse for right. From what I understand you can program these for the touchpad and mouse button so there is somewhat of a workaround. I’m still going to have to carry a BT mouse with me because of this.

When you get your PowerBook, I'd recommend installing the SideTrack (http://www.ragingmenace.com/software/sidetrack/) alternative trackpad driver. It makes programming button clicks this way easy, and it gives you edge scroll wheels.

I hope you enjoy your PowerBook when you get it. I think we're actually closer to agreeing than at first it might have seemed.

Peace.

Snowy_River
Jan 16, 2004, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by zamyatin
The way overstated hockey phrase from the business world, about skating to where the puck is going, not where it is now, comes to mind.

Attempting compatibility with MS Office is useful in the short term. Being completely compatible with OpenOffice is a requirement in the long term. Please make it so with the next version of AppleWorks! Even use the OpenOffice file formats as the default for AW -- they are completely open and fully documented, and can be shared with OOo on four major platforms, as well as with AbiWord on Linux, KWrite is adopting them, etc, etc.

Everyone is moving toward OpenOffice. When the tipping point arrives, MS Word will fall off the end of the world and OOo will be supreme! Get ready...

The big problem with this is that OO isn't going to be anywhere near ready for primetime on Mac OS X for at least a couple of years. I check back with them every now and again, and right now their just in a holding pattern waiting for the Toolkit to be updated before they continue development further, and that's not expected for about a year. So, while I had hopes for using OO a couple of years ago, the glacial pace that the development has taken leaves me feeling that I'm not going to hold my breath.

The rumor that really got my hopes up was that Apple was working with Sun to port Star Office to the Mac. Now that would be something. A fully supported version of an alternate, powerful office suite. But that rumor was quickly debunked. Oh well.

JJTiger1
Jan 17, 2004, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by slpdprvd
What do you mean there is no need and no market?
{snippage}
Apple rather than Microsoft, Belkin, etc. The very fact that the mouse will most likely match and conform to Apple's fashion sensibility is more than reason to purchase it.

I would have bought an Apple brand mouse if it has all of the features of the relatively cheap Logitech Marble Mouse: scroll buttons, left & right buttons, and a trackball.

I hate moving any hockey puck all over the desktop.

I hate pressing a keyboad key AND a mouse button to get the contextual menus.

The scrolling buttons are just icing on the cake.
=-=
JJ

singletrack
Jan 18, 2004, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by MOFS
Once again Apple offers a feature...but then doesn't allow us non-north Americans to use it. If you read the fine-print, the update won't work on European (or Asian or African or...) Macs.

Back to TextEdit for me...:(

The international version is available from Apple UK at least...

http://www.apple.com/uk/appleworks/update/

It never appeared in my Software Update for some reason but it is available.

On a side note, it would seem even the AppleWorks team don't use it. The release notes are horrible html generated from Microsoft Word - Doh!

jsalzer
Jan 18, 2004, 07:13 PM
Waiting for AppleWorks to update has been almost as bad as waiting for my ex to call. I understand why it's against Apple's best interest at the moment to do a complete update (assuming that MS's response to Safari would be similar to their response to a full AW update), but there's a large part of me that can't help but want it.

Despite what it's still missing, there are so many things it has that Word just hasn't caught up with. The Draw feature alone is something that Word has never gotten right (with pictures and shapes popping completely off of the page for no apparent reason and putting itself inline with text even when you tell it not to). And the integration of the easy-to-use database with both word processing and with draw is incredibly powerful. If I need to throw together a quick database and merge data into a Draw document, CW/AW is where I'm going to go.

As a power user, I use more powerful programs all day, but AW is always there as my right-hand man to fill in the holes.

I'd love to see Keynote and Filemaker packaged with an updated Draw and Word Processor. (MS can keep Excel).

Now, I have to hop on the mouse debate. While I can understand why some people want the second button, those people have to understand that the rest of us are deathly afraid that if Apple makes a two-button mouse, they'll stop making the one-button mouse we love. The Mac is a beautiful OS with its constantly changing menu bar that negates the "need" for a second button. The mouse becomes a natural extension of your hand.

On the off chance that you need a contextual menu, Control+Click couldn't be easier - with the mouse in your right hand (sorry lefties) and the Control key conveniently located in the lower left-hand corner of the keyboard.

Personally, I have a Mac and a PC on my desk - and the only difference in the mice is that one is the black Apple mouse and the other is the white Apple mouse. It works just fine on Windows 98, 2000, and XP.

As graceful as ClarisWorks, itself. And much easier on the right pointer finger for those of us with joint problems.

And, for those who can't get enough buttons, they do make a mouse with over a hundred buttons - it's called a keyboard. ;)

Long Live ClarisWorks and Filemaker!

Bagel
Jan 19, 2004, 08:34 AM
Sadly, this updater seems to only be for the U.S. version. I am running the U.K. version and it just tells me that I cannot run the updater. Touch wood an update for the U.K. will be in the works.

I use AppleWorks a lot, and it's actually getting me through my MSc (essay wise).

Have a nice day!

Edit: A U.K. version is already available according to a poster above. Hoorah!

Edit2: Ooh! And the poster below. How lovely!

mhar4
Jan 19, 2004, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by Bagel
Sadly, this updater seems to only be for the U.S. version. I am running the U.K. version and it just tells me that I cannot run the updater.

There's an "International" version available through the Apple UK site. Try http://www.apple.com/uk/appleworks/update/