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MacRumors
Oct 1, 2008, 10:05 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Apple has announced (http://developer.apple.com/iphone/program/) that they have dropped the iPhone Non-Disclosure Agreement for released iPhone software.We have decided to drop the non-disclosure agreement (NDA) for released iPhone software.

We put the NDA in place because the iPhone OS includes many Apple inventions and innovations that we would like to protect, so that others don’t steal our work. It has happened before. While we have filed for hundreds of patents on iPhone technology, the NDA added yet another level of protection. We put it in place as one more way to help protect the iPhone from being ripped off by others.

However, the NDA has created too much of a burden on developers, authors and others interested in helping further the iPhone’s success, so we are dropping it for released software. Developers will receive a new agreement without an NDA covering released software within a week or so. Please note that unreleased software and features will remain under NDA until they are released.

Thanks to everyone who provided us constructive feedback on this matter.Apple is expected to release a new version of the NDA next week which will still cover unreleased software and features. This move should open up discussion between developers as well as publication of books on the iPhone SDK. Both activities have been limited due to the continuation of the non-disclosure agreement.



Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/10/01/apple-drops-iphone-non-disclosure-agreement-nda/)



zombitronic
Oct 1, 2008, 10:08 AM
This seems fair. Good job, Apple.

ejrizo
Oct 1, 2008, 10:08 AM
if it makes for better innovation and better apps... thats great

yippy
Oct 1, 2008, 10:09 AM
Sounds good, this is something people have been complaining about. I hope it allows for more interest in iPhone development.

MacMuttonchops
Oct 1, 2008, 10:10 AM
Glad to see that they're actually listening to people's feedback. That can only be a step in the right direction.

nlivo
Oct 1, 2008, 10:12 AM
This is amazingly good news! I think this is the first article on Macrumors I have bothered to even vote for it to be Positive or Negative.

CrownSeven
Oct 1, 2008, 10:12 AM
Well then, I guess I will be purchasing a new MBP once the redesign is released to start developing iPHONE apps.

Now just fix that damn nvidia issue.

deckwalker
Oct 1, 2008, 10:13 AM
Way to go Apple.

Mykbibby
Oct 1, 2008, 10:16 AM
Its interesting the reason they implemented the NDA, but nevertheless, I guess its a good thing.

Stargaze
Oct 1, 2008, 10:17 AM
this I wonderful news and it's about time!!!!

xix
Oct 1, 2008, 10:17 AM
"It has happened before"

Sure has, don't forget it. This is extremely good news and very exciting.

iOrlando
Oct 1, 2008, 10:18 AM
wow...pretty big development here.....

apple doesnt want any more negative backlash from andriod and the whole concept of "openess" when it comes to mobile platforms.

commander.data
Oct 1, 2008, 10:19 AM
This is great news.

I may be cynical, but I hope they aren't going to use this as a smoke screen for the issues regarding App Store rejection. Once that is cleared up things will be full steam ahead.

dzhiurgis
Oct 1, 2008, 10:19 AM
Hooray :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMU0tzLwhbE

Ratboy
Oct 1, 2008, 10:20 AM
I hope this means we'll be seeing a port of Adium for the iPhone soon.

Loonytik
Oct 1, 2008, 10:20 AM
Finally.....the chains have been released!

geerlingguy
Oct 1, 2008, 10:20 AM
Awesome! I've been trying to get by on Mac OS X Programming books + some iPhone Developer documents released by Apple alone, and I'm not advanced enough in my programming to do some of the things I'd like to. Hopefully a nice iPhone Dev book will be released by the likes of O'Reilly soon...

jeremy.king
Oct 1, 2008, 10:20 AM
Now all the training courses can begin!

BongoBanger
Oct 1, 2008, 10:20 AM
So how does this stop them from arbitrarily preventing apps from appearing in the store?

Nice bit of backtracking though.

MonM
Oct 1, 2008, 10:22 AM
definitely a step in the right direction.

Please note that unreleased software and features will remain under NDA until they are released.

Though they've reserved the right to squash any public complaints about being stopped by the sometimes finicky review process.

arn
Oct 1, 2008, 10:23 AM
Though they've reserved the right to squash any public complaints about being stopped by the sometimes finicky review process.

I think that means unreleased Apple software... like Firmware 2.2.

arn

amac4me
Oct 1, 2008, 10:23 AM
A nice development for developers ;)

evilyankeefan
Oct 1, 2008, 10:25 AM
Very cool. Now I can steal..oops learn from others...a lot easier. :)

McCarron
Oct 1, 2008, 10:28 AM
Thanks Apple! Great news, as it'll now allow much easier communication amongst developers.

sushi
Oct 1, 2008, 10:29 AM
Finally. Good for developers.

Thank you Apple.

ddarko
Oct 1, 2008, 10:31 AM
I think that means unreleased Apple software... like Firmware 2.2.

arn

Nope, that's not what it means. Nowhere does it say it's restricted to only Apple-written unreleased software. It covers ALL unreleased iPhone apps, including apps that are unreleased because Apple refused to approve them.

This revision addresses a common complaint many developers have had; the NDA was so broad it prevented them from talking and sharing ideas and methods to write better software. So this change is a good thing. But this change does not help those developers who write code that Apple decides is too competitive to its own software and does not approve. They're still prevented from talking about why their software wasn't approved. And that's bad.

starflyer
Oct 1, 2008, 10:31 AM
Unfortunately this announcement falls under the NDA. :D

dizzy13
Oct 1, 2008, 10:32 AM
This is great news and perfect timing for me. Just got accepted into the dev program a couple weeks ago, buying my first macbook after the refresh (hopefully October 14th)...and then it's off to make some kick ass apps that hopefully don't suck :D

NAG
Oct 1, 2008, 10:35 AM
Hopefully this also comes with a more clear definition of exactly what is and is not acceptable on the app store.

arn
Oct 1, 2008, 10:35 AM
Nope, that's not what it means. Nowhere does it say it's restricted to only Apple-written unreleased software. It covers ALL unreleased iPhone apps, including apps that are unreleased because Apple refused to approve them.

I don't think you know that for sure until the new NDA comes out. The way it was worded, I believe it's Apple software and features.

arn

kerryn
Oct 1, 2008, 10:39 AM
The way I read this is that it is only for release software. Therefore once you have developed you application, had it approved by Apple, and published it you may then discuss it.

But, if your software is unreleased and you are having problem with a particular aspect of it, you may not write on a developer forum seeking help?

Am I missing something here, or is Apple only referring to their unreleased software?

mainstreetmark
Oct 1, 2008, 10:39 AM
In any event, we'll see a ton of developer-assistance websites popup now. Though it is nice to do everything through Apple, others are now free to create their own tutorials, which I will eagerly await.

This is good news. This should help the economy.

Sbrocket
Oct 1, 2008, 10:40 AM
Nope, that's not what it means. Nowhere does it say it's restricted to only Apple-written unreleased software. It covers ALL unreleased iPhone apps, including apps that are unreleased because Apple refused to approve them.

This revision addresses a common complaint many developers have had; the NDA was so broad it prevented them from talking and sharing ideas and methods to write better software. So this change is a good thing. But this change does not help those developers who write code that Apple decides is too competitive to its own software and does not approve. They're still prevented from talking about why their software wasn't approved. And that's bad.

I'm not sure you can make that assertion (one way or the other) until you see the full text of the new NDA covering unreleased software.

My reading of it was that Apple wanted to clarify that unreleased software like the 2.2 SDK and such are still under the NDA, to prevent developers from mistaking what they were saying for a carte blanche to publish what they want. This could, of course, be wrong but I think automatically taking the pessimistic view and presenting it as fact (when it clearly isn't) is wrong in any case.

Low
Oct 1, 2008, 10:42 AM
good news. i guess i'll be buying 4 mac pros and the new mbp to dev for iphone apps, whew! thanks!

slicecom
Oct 1, 2008, 10:43 AM
I hope this means we'll be seeing a port of Adium for the iPhone soon.

x2 even though I just bought BeeJive, I think the Adium Team could do an even better job than BeeJive at a more reasonable price.

worldburger
Oct 1, 2008, 10:43 AM
I think the posters who are quick to congratulate Apple might be jumping the gun.

If I understand correctly the lifted NDA is for released software only. I suspect the NDA on unreleased (read: denied software like the podcaster xyz-pdq) will still be in place. That is the one about which I was most disappointed...

momoe
Oct 1, 2008, 10:46 AM
Nope, that's not what it means. Nowhere does it say it's restricted to only Apple-written unreleased software. It covers ALL unreleased iPhone apps, including apps that are unreleased because Apple refused to approve them.

This revision addresses a common complaint many developers have had; the NDA was so broad it prevented them from talking and sharing ideas and methods to write better software. So this change is a good thing. But this change does not help those developers who write code that Apple decides is too competitive to its own software and does not approve. They're still prevented from talking about why their software wasn't approved. And that's bad.

I agree with your sentiment whole-heartedly. Developers under the NDA SHOULD be allowed to interact - these types of collaborative and creative problem solving efforts are EXACTLY the concepts we are trying to instill into our students to try to make them better global players.

momoe :apple:

chrisgeleven
Oct 1, 2008, 10:47 AM
I think the posters who are quick to congratulate Apple might be jumping the gun.

If I understand correctly the lifted NDA is for released software only. I suspect the NDA on unreleased (read: denied software like the podcaster xyz-pdq) will still be in place. That is the one about which I was most disappointed...

No, the NDA was for the current released version of the iPhone SDK (2.1 at the moment). So everything developed under this SDK can be talked about in the public.

The NDA will still be in effect for anything related to unreleased SDK's (2.2's for example, which will probably have push notifications, will be under NDA still).

sfwalter
Oct 1, 2008, 10:47 AM
This is great! Now the books can start to be published. I know there are several books ready to go but couldn't be released with the NDA in place.

thecartoonguy
Oct 1, 2008, 10:49 AM
Finally.....the chains have been released!

The ivory tower has become stained with sadness of the people. Finally Apple has decided to listen to those to support them.

ImperialForces
Oct 1, 2008, 10:50 AM
Wait... Does this mean that Apple no longer rejects your iPhone application from its store? :confused:

slicecom
Oct 1, 2008, 10:50 AM
Adium has already updated their page in response to this.

http://trac.adiumx.com/wiki/AdiumForiPhone

QuarterSwede
Oct 1, 2008, 10:52 AM
I hope this means we'll be seeing a port of Adium for the iPhone soon.
Here's to hoping.

Kilamite
Oct 1, 2008, 10:53 AM
Haha.

Should we expect to hear more and more stories about rejected App's then? Or does this mean Victor Wang has been fired?

firewood
Oct 1, 2008, 10:54 AM
Wait... Does this mean that Apple no longer rejects your iPhone application from its store? :confused:

No. It means you can publish books and write help forum articles about your SDK developed software before it is (possibly) rejected by the App store.

oneschance
Oct 1, 2008, 10:54 AM
Wirelessly posted (iphone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/525.18.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.1 Mobile/5F136 Safari/525.20)

This is great news.

I may be cynical, but I hope they aren't going to use this as a smoke screen for the issues regarding App Store rejection. Once that is cleared up things will be full steam ahead.

Some developers would go to far if you don't set rules and regs. We need to have a standard for balance. I'm talking about content.

chrisgeleven
Oct 1, 2008, 10:55 AM
Wait... Does this mean that Apple no longer rejects your iPhone application from its store? :confused:

No, it means that developers can now talk to each other about developing for the iPhone and share code. Previously this was not allowed by the NDA.

ryanwarsaw
Oct 1, 2008, 10:59 AM
This is a 180 degree move in the right direction for Apple.

Lepton
Oct 1, 2008, 11:01 AM
The thing is, people couldn't discuss or publish books about Apple's iPhone OS. So, learning to write for iPhone was limited to getting in the program and learning strictly from Apple's docs. That was a severe limitation.

Though I can write for iPhone already, I couldn't discuss any techniques I used in programming my apps, not because I couldn't talk about my app, released or unreleased, but because talking about my app internals or many features necessarily meant I would have to talk about the OS. So I couldn't disclose a lot of stuff about my apps even if I wanted to.

And this meant there could be no discussion groups on writing for iPhone. This is a major way developers learn. You can't get everything out of dry documents. No one could release their own example apps, talk about techniques, and so on.

All this stuff will be lifted and it means better quality apps for everyone. The limits will be talking about what's in upcoming, unreleased iPhone OS software.

Kelmon
Oct 1, 2008, 11:04 AM
I offer polite approval for this news but have to also add "about freakin' time". Why the NDA remained in place after the iPhone's release is beyond me, particularly since developers have been complaining about this for months. This is something that should have been addressed on Day #1, not over 3-months later when your company is being bad-mouthed in the press.

Next, we need real guidelines on what is, or is not, acceptable in the App Store and a procedure that will enable developers to determine whether their application idea is suitable before too much has been invested.

kornyboy
Oct 1, 2008, 11:04 AM
Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/525.18.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.1 Mobile/5F136 Safari/525.20)

I wonder if this is what was holding TomTom and Garmin back from releasing Turn by Turn GPS software.

paja
Oct 1, 2008, 11:04 AM
Amazon will soon have a flood of iPhone developer books!

sfoalex
Oct 1, 2008, 11:06 AM
Yes, let's all congratulate Apple for finally coming to their senses. I guess that's something to applaud.

Just curious, are we going to applaud Apple when and if they grow enough brains to allow 3rd party email apps and other software that supposed duplicates features they provide? I'd like email that actually has features on par with other 1.0 and pre-release email software at least. You know like a settings for things like download only 5k or 50k of data and then give the option to download the rest... Oh and email that doesn't have to re-load every time I click on it even though it's already been read? I wouldn't want someone with a 45 I.Q. to accidentally beat the cr@p out of Apple's own developments in their sleep.

Alex Alexzander

TheSpaz
Oct 1, 2008, 11:07 AM
I've always wanted an iPhone developers guide book to help me get started. This should be interesting.

gmeddles
Oct 1, 2008, 11:08 AM
It's about time Apple wised up on this one. Lack of community resources for developers means the retarded pace of technological innovation and the eventual stagnation of the platform.

I'm actually looking forward to the rise of OSS iPhone apps. Downloading the source, compiling, and putting the app directly on your phone -- without worrying about whether or not the capricious Apple has decided to disapprove the app for providing functionality that's a little too close to home. For software engineers and power users, this is a very good thing that makes jailbreaking less necessary.

ChrisA
Oct 1, 2008, 11:10 AM
Well then, I guess I will be purchasing a new MBP once the redesign is released to start developing iPHONE apps..

You still have that little problem that after you are done Apple can reject the app for any reason. Developing for the iPhone is kind of like playing a slot machine, unpredictable outcome that is not under your control. Do not gamble more development time than you are willing to loose.

The NDA on released software was pointless. There was no secrete anyone can get the SDK but the NDA prevented people dfrom talking about what anyone could download and read.

regularg0nz0
Oct 1, 2008, 11:10 AM
Just curious, are we going to applaud Apple when and if they grow enough brains to allow 3rd party email apps and other software that supposed duplicates features they provide?

Guess it depends on how much their throttling of control threatens sales. That's more or less what happened here. Enough people were outraged to put a dent in sales. Ultimately, that's the basis for every decision, really.

sfoalex
Oct 1, 2008, 11:13 AM
Guess it depends on how much their throttling of control threatens sales. That's more or less what happened here. Enough people were outraged to put a dent in sales. Ultimately, that's the basis for every decision, really.

Furthermore, since rejected software is not released software, the emperor still doesn't allow you to discuss it.

Alex Alexzander

840quadra
Oct 1, 2008, 11:14 AM
This is great news, poking a few windows in the walled garden that is the iPod / iTunes frontier, is something that many will appreciate. The next item that should be taken seriously, is a better process for approving applications.

Having a pre-approval process would help reduce much more of the bad press on the app store, as compared to the NDA. Giving Developers a "Green light" before they spend many hours (days or months) on an application would be a nice touch. A good friend of mine is contemplating making his application he is developing for Android, however he fears that it will be rejected, and does not want want to do the work just to be rejected.

http://forums.macrumors.com/image.php?u=47064&dateline=1165207334&type=profile

gnasher729
Oct 1, 2008, 11:18 AM
You still have that little problem that after you are done Apple can reject the app for any reason. Developing for the iPhone is kind of like playing a slot machine, unpredictable outcome that is not under your control. Do not gamble more development time than you are willing to loose.

The NDA on released software was pointless. There was no secrete anyone can get the SDK but the NDA prevented people dfrom talking about what anyone could download and read.

You are missing the point. Even if ten million people can register and download the SDK, as long as it is under NDA it is still secret. Therefore engineers at Microsoft or Nokia who are certainly clever enough to take ideas from the SDK and turn them into a patent are not allowed to do it, because doing so would violate the NDA. There is also the problem that you can't patent things after they have been published (for example by yourself; I think there is a grace period for US patents), but as long as it is under NDA, it is _not_ published. So Apple has more time to file for patents, as long as everything is under NDA.

gnasher729
Oct 1, 2008, 11:20 AM
Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/525.18.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.1 Mobile/5F136 Safari/525.20)

I wonder if this is what was holding TomTom and Garmin back from releasing Turn by Turn GPS software.

Certainly not. These companies don't have any intention to tell you how their applications work, whether they are under NDA or not.

Guess it depends on how much their throttling of control threatens sales. That's more or less what happened here. Enough people were outraged to put a dent in sales. Ultimately, that's the basis for every decision, really.

There may have been outrage; I doubt it stopped anyone from buying software. If Apple treats developer X in a nasty way, why would that stop you from buying developer Y's software? I think a real problem was GPL-based software, where the author might have an obligation to provide the source code once it is published.

No. It means you can publish books and write help forum articles about your SDK developed software before it is (possibly) rejected by the App store.

Once you have a changed NDA in your hands, have checked it, and the NDA allows it. Hopefully some time within a week.

bts169
Oct 1, 2008, 11:22 AM
Hooray :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMU0tzLwhbE

Microsoft's next ad? :D

Awesome news. Go Apple :)

firewood
Oct 1, 2008, 11:23 AM
Why the NDA remained in place after the iPhone's release is beyond me, ...

It's probably beyond you because you haven't spent many 10's of millions of dollars on court cases over stolen and illegally copied software ideas (and had to either settle, or narrowly lose). Apple has.

.

TallCoolOne
Oct 1, 2008, 11:29 AM
Amazon will soon have a flood of iPhone developer books!

This drop of the NDA is not unexpected... thanks to Amazon! There have been iPhone developer books on Amazon available for preorder for quite some time now. One even has a specific day of release (most only indicate the month). These publishers were obviously aware that this lifting of the NDA would happen.

sangosimo
Oct 1, 2008, 11:32 AM
extremely good news, the quality of apps should increase

jamesarm97
Oct 1, 2008, 11:37 AM
I've always wanted an iPhone developers guide book to help me get started. This should be interesting.

But doesn't the change still not allow any discussion about the SDK itself (like a book) because you can't discuss anything about an app until the app is published which is different than publishing an SDK reference book?

digitalbiker
Oct 1, 2008, 11:38 AM
I don't think you know that for sure until the new NDA comes out. The way it was worded, I believe it's Apple software and features.

arn

I agree with you, Arn. It is obvious that Apple is allowing developers to now discuss issues and problems so that a community can form that will aid future developers.

The non-disclosure of un-released software and features is for Apple's software, such as OS, firmware, etc.

This would be analogous with the way that Apple handles the NDA for OS X.

Good move for Apple. Now developers will be able to share code snippets and offer advice on optimization and standardization of common tasks.

iSee
Oct 1, 2008, 11:41 AM
What?!?

APPL isn't completely controled by myopic officious lawyers and clueless greedy executives that always seek to control and constrain the third-party developers that enhance the value of their products ???

Don't these guys know how to run a company? Who have these guys their MBAs?

If I was holding Apple stock I'd be really nervous about their leadership.

;)

(good job Apple)

askewed
Oct 1, 2008, 11:42 AM
Does this mean I can talk about the iPhone commercial that I may or may not have appeared in that never aired? Allegedly.

EagerDragon
Oct 1, 2008, 11:43 AM
I think the posters who are quick to congratulate Apple might be jumping the gun.

If I understand correctly the lifted NDA is for released software only. I suspect the NDA on unreleased (read: denied software like the podcaster xyz-pdq) will still be in place. That is the one about which I was most disappointed...

The software that you wrote is your property to do as you wish even if Apple does not allow you to market it via the app store. You can otherwise sell the source code along with all the calls to the API since the version of the API is no longer under NDA. You can also create an OpenSource project to distribute the software.

You can also write articles on your experince withthe current version of the SDK and teach others how to create applications.

Your code is your property, Apple has no rights on it.

Daniel0418
Oct 1, 2008, 11:48 AM
Glad to see that they're actually listening to people's feedback. That can only be a step in the right direction.

ok 2 things. 1 before the agreement... Apps still sucked. So I still doubt we are going to see any really useful applications besides the games. 2nd... Apple didn't listen to us... Or you... Or any customers at all. They are scared of the 1 big threat that comes along with the g1. Compare to the iPhone we all saw and read g1 isn't that exciting. Best part out of the gates is 3.2 megapixel camera, mms, and copy/paste. The one thing everyone has their eye out for on the g1 is a developers platform with little to no rules. No restrictions. Developers can mimic and completly replace basic functions the g1 comes with such as mms, the phone app, gpas, and so on. Apple is creating the illusion that it will lighten up but even before this agreement iPhone apps were still fairly useless. Let's face of the iPhone is good for how it looks/feels and the news/games. Other than that. G1 seems a little more exciting. That's all I am just saying. Don't be fooled.

ramzez
Oct 1, 2008, 11:54 AM
The software that you wrote is your property to do as you wish even if Apple does not allow you to market it via the app store. You can otherwise sell the source code along with all the calls to the API since the version of the API is no longer under NDA. You can also create an OpenSource project to distribute the software.

You can also write articles on your experince withthe current version of the SDK and teach others how to create applications.

Your code is your property, Apple has no rights on it.

Please note that unreleased software and features will remain under NDA until they are released.


i am confused about this statement

deputy_doofy
Oct 1, 2008, 11:55 AM
Awesome news. I have an xcode2 book and an iPhone dev book on order. Look forward to making stuff for the phone.

Baadshah
Oct 1, 2008, 11:55 AM
nice, but whats the status of the macbooks, it looks there is no new macbooks out before jan 09, they should have sent invitations out for the event on 14th oct.

But it looks they have not said anything about it......:confused:

iSee
Oct 1, 2008, 12:00 PM
So...

Has the iPhone SDK been "released"?

Or just distributed to development partners but not actually released?

iSee
Oct 1, 2008, 12:01 PM
ok 2 things. 1 before the agreement... Apps still sucked. So I still doubt we are going to see any really useful applications besides the games. 2nd... Apple didn't listen to us... Or you... Or any customers at all. They are scared of the 1 big threat that comes along with the g1. Compare to the iPhone we all saw and read g1 isn't that exciting. Best part out of the gates is 3.2 megapixel camera, mms, and copy/paste. The one thing everyone has their eye out for on the g1 is a developers platform with little to no rules. No restrictions. Developers can mimic and completly replace basic functions the g1 comes with such as mms, the phone app, gpas, and so on. Apple is creating the illusion that it will lighten up but even before this agreement iPhone apps were still fairly useless. Let's face of the iPhone is good for how it looks/feels and the news/games. Other than that. G1 seems a little more exciting. That's all I am just saying. Don't be fooled.

I can't disagree with you... but that's only because I have no idea what you're actually saying.

137489
Oct 1, 2008, 12:03 PM
While I do not have an iphone, my wife has been asking questions and hinting at the fact she may get me an ipod touch for Christmas (to replace my 2004 version Ipod antique).

I would love to be able to write software for it, and pick the brains of those who already have (since I would just be starting out on this platform).....

We have some wonderful talent that was just waiting to dive into the arena. Just think what this could open up for mobile computing. the Best smartphone, running the best mobile apps, on the best OS - now becomes the best little PDA.

tehprince
Oct 1, 2008, 12:06 PM
Well, this is good news, once the NDA is dropped developers will finally be able to share information. I hope we'll see better apps.

www.appstoredevelopers.com (http://www.appstoredevelopers.com)

abrooks
Oct 1, 2008, 12:07 PM
nice, but whats the status of the macbooks, it looks there is no new macbooks out before jan 09, they should have sent invitations out for the event on 14th oct.

But it looks they have not said anything about it......:confused:

A millions miles off topic but Apple usually sends out invites around 7 days prior to an event.

wooo
Oct 1, 2008, 12:11 PM
Finally! This is one important step forward... now if only we can run stuff in the background... then jailbreaking will be soo much less desirable.

ChrisA
Oct 1, 2008, 12:11 PM
nice, but whats the status of the macbooks, it looks there is no new macbooks out before jan 09, they should have sent invitations out for the event on 14th oct.

You mean you expect Apple to make a big on-stage press announcement just for a new notebook computer? You must be nuts. Apple reserves those big media events for when they come up with a new iPod color. When they update a computer Apple silently updates the web page, no press announcement.

bytethese
Oct 1, 2008, 12:12 PM
Awesome! Now maybe I can discuss crap when I have issues programming. :)

w00t!

The General
Oct 1, 2008, 12:12 PM
YESS... Adium for iPhone. :D

EagerDragon
Oct 1, 2008, 12:13 PM
Please note that unreleased software and features will remain under NDA until they are released.


i am confused about this statement

It means ---- Developers with access to unreleased apple software or hardware, are not allowed to talk about it until the product is released. Those are still covered under the NDA.

The software you write has not been covered by the NDA ever!!!!!!!!!!! Only the API calls to the iPhone SDK were covered (which is no longer the case).

You hold the rights to the source of software you write, just like you hold the rights to the pictures you take with a camera regardless of the camera brand.

Apple can keep you from talking about negotiations in between them and you, for example: the reason why they rejected your program. But they can no longer keep you from talking about the code, publishing the source code on the internet and discussing how and why your code works the way it works. It is your code!!!!!!!!!!

paja
Oct 1, 2008, 12:14 PM
I can't disagree with you... but that's only because I have no idea what you're actually saying.

He's just a clueless Android fanboy shilling for the G1.:rolleyes:

nomar383
Oct 1, 2008, 12:18 PM
I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned, but doesn't this mean iPhone programming books can now be released? Haven't a few writers been waiting for this with books already written? I'm way excited now!

AlphaAnt
Oct 1, 2008, 12:18 PM
ok 2 things. 1 before the agreement... Apps still sucked. So I still doubt we are going to see any really useful applications besides the games. 2nd... Apple didn't listen to us... Or you... Or any customers at all. They are scared of the 1 big threat that comes along with the g1. Compare to the iPhone we all saw and read g1 isn't that exciting. Best part out of the gates is 3.2 megapixel camera, mms, and copy/paste. The one thing everyone has their eye out for on the g1 is a developers platform with little to no rules. No restrictions. Developers can mimic and completly replace basic functions the g1 comes with such as mms, the phone app, gpas, and so on. Apple is creating the illusion that it will lighten up but even before this agreement iPhone apps were still fairly useless. Let's face of the iPhone is good for how it looks/feels and the news/games. Other than that. G1 seems a little more exciting. That's all I am just saying. Don't be fooled.

Wow, the iPhone's first major competitor. It's only been, what, 16 months? Do you really think that apps for the G1 will be any less useless, especially since they don't have as efficient of an application delivery system?

Couple that with the fact that the apps are going to have free-reign of the OS (including the ability to run in the background) and it will be just like Windows Mobile.

Throw in the G1's slide-out keyboard, and that's a big No Thanks for me.

fat phil
Oct 1, 2008, 12:34 PM
So...

Has the iPhone SDK been "released"?

Or just distributed to development partners but not actually released?

iPhone SDK was released on the 12th July.

You still have to apply to be a developer, which is free until you want to test and distribute applications on devices & submit to the App Store (pending review). The non-free part costs $99 and can take 1-3 weeks to process.

ravenvii
Oct 1, 2008, 12:35 PM
This might have been mentioned already, but I'm excited for this because this means open source developers can now develop for the iPhone!

(hint: Adium)

fat phil
Oct 1, 2008, 12:36 PM
I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned, but doesn't this mean iPhone programming books can now be released? Haven't a few writers been waiting for this with books already written? I'm way excited now!

Yes, when the revised agreements have been issued & signed (in 1 week apparently).

fat phil
Oct 1, 2008, 12:39 PM
This might have been mentioned already, but I'm excited for this because this means open source developers can now develop for the iPhone!

(hint: Adium)

Yes, code sharing should now be possible.

Incidentally, it was previously possible to code share by forming a private group (a few enterprising devs did this by 'hiring' each other) - there's not much anyone can do to discredit that without effort and (hard to collate) proof.

Aurial
Oct 1, 2008, 12:40 PM
What a complete suprise! I guess its just coincidence that lots of authors have books about the iPhone SDK penciled in for an October release date.

t0mat0
Oct 1, 2008, 12:48 PM
Hopefully Arn will sort out a section for reviews of books, or a page 1 article on the upcoming titles on developing for iPhone.

jObooW
Oct 1, 2008, 12:56 PM
Does this mean that flash is coming for sure?

vilasgn
Oct 1, 2008, 12:57 PM
Can someone who really understood this please explain how this is a big deal?

It's just non "disclosure" agreement. So now I think developers will be able to disclose 2.2 features before 2.2 is officially released to all.

Am I understanding correctly? How else this can benefit?

Mindflux
Oct 1, 2008, 12:59 PM
Can someone who really understood this please explain how this impacts all app development?

I am not sure why it's a big deal. It's just non "disclosure" agreement.

Developers can't even discuss how to write a small snip of code with anyone because of the NDA.

donga
Oct 1, 2008, 01:16 PM
and the drama continues....

swarmster
Oct 1, 2008, 01:26 PM
That seems like a rather bluntly honest letter for Apple to send out. It sounds to me like Jobs wrote most/all of it; it's his style and tone.

From when he first showed off the iPhone (and later the Touch), Jobs has always given the impression that he considers the iPhone/Pod a new computing platform, as important to the company as when the Mac came out. You kind of get that impression using one; it's certainly a powerful, stream-lined and thought out system of its own. It was a big part of why he dropped the "Computer" from Apple's name. Whether or not everyone's fully satisfied yet, it's interesting to hear him really treat it that way, and how the early Microsoft days are clearly still so fresh in his mind. And that this is like a second, similar chance to see what we wanted the Mac to do.

*totally drinking the kool-aid today, but doesn't care*

swarmster
Oct 1, 2008, 01:28 PM
Thanks for the lead-in, donga. It was well timed.

twoodcc
Oct 1, 2008, 01:35 PM
alright! i think this is for the best

firewood
Oct 1, 2008, 01:43 PM
Please note that unreleased software and features will remain under NDA until they are released.

Unreleased Apple software. But software written by Adobe, Google, or you, is obviously not covered, unless it contains unreleased Apple iPhone software or API calls. But IANAL, and the actual new NDA isn't out yet, so take this with a grain of salt.

And this SDK NDA release has nothing to do with App store approvals, which can still be under another NDA if they so choose (there is a separate agreement for using the store).

.

RTiii320
Oct 1, 2008, 01:46 PM
glad to hear that developers can interact easier now without having to worry about the NDA. This can only improve the types of applications that we are getting nowadays.

Thomas2006
Oct 1, 2008, 01:50 PM
Are developers now allowed to share their source code so people can get free software without having to go through the App Store?

Stile
Oct 1, 2008, 01:54 PM
Hmmm, wonder if the NetShare guys will share their code? But I suppose a similar OSS app will show up before too long anyway.

Tulse
Oct 1, 2008, 01:59 PM
Are developers now allowed to share their source code so people can get free software without having to go through the App Store?

This has nothing to do with how apps get distributed. Apps will still need to be cryptographically "signed" by Apple to run, so no, this will not lead to non-App Store distribution. It does mean that developers can "open source" their code, but the actual app will still need to go through the App Store (or the other official channels) to run on iPhones.

sfoalex
Oct 1, 2008, 02:01 PM
He's just a clueless Android fanboy shilling for the G1.:rolleyes:

I don't think he's a clueless Android supporter. I think Android holds a lot of promise as an open system. Judging it solely by the first product ever released would be silly.

Why not lose the attitude towards anyone with a thought that strays away from your beloved Apple. Talk about fanboi.

Alex Alexzander

Packersfan27
Oct 1, 2008, 02:02 PM
This may sound stupid,

but does this mean that we will see apps that let us customize our phones, like custom backgrounds and icons?

DreamPod
Oct 1, 2008, 02:04 PM
Um, to me this sounds like Apple trying to look good without actually having to do anything. Us developers can now talk about the software we release...woot! Of course, that doesn't free up the restrictions about talking about Apple libraries and all that, which is what people really object to.

firewood
Oct 1, 2008, 02:08 PM
Are developers now allowed to share their source code so people can get free software without having to go through the App Store?

Random users might be able to get free OSS source code, and perhaps run it on the simulator (if they agree to the new SDK license). But installing the app or any compiled source code on an iPhone will still require Apple supplied developer certificates and keys... those are currently neither free nor transferable. (Or one can try jailbreaking their device to install anything...)

But this new SDK license might allow enrolled developers to recompile and install (share) each others code.

Certain highly restrictive licenses prevent distribution of an OSS app if one can't also distribute all the keys required. But there are better suited OSS licenses available (BSD, et.al.).

.

espoir
Oct 1, 2008, 02:08 PM
Make no mistake - NDA drop for released software means "we don't want people to know how to implement things we don't approve"...

So, for example, if someone develops a way for syncing Podcasts over the air without iTunes and Apple wouldn't approve that as we know, this means that this peace of software won't be released which also means that noone should know how to program this kind of things...

Keness
Oct 1, 2008, 02:09 PM
Um, to me this sounds like Apple trying to look good without actually having to do anything. Us developers can now talk about the software we release...woot! Of course, that doesn't free up the restrictions about talking about Apple libraries and all that, which is what people really object to.

I think you missed the point... Of course you have always been able to talk about your software, just not the details of developing it.

The "released software" they are referring to is the SDK and the use thereof. Obviously, if it hasn't been released yet (the 2.2 SDK, as a fake example) you still can't talk about it. But 2.1 is (or will be, then the new NDA takes effect) fair game, because it has been released.

sfoalex
Oct 1, 2008, 02:10 PM
Wow, the iPhone's first major competitor. It's only been, what, 16 months? Do you really think that apps for the G1 will be any less useless, especially since they don't have as efficient of an application delivery system?

Couple that with the fact that the apps are going to have free-reign of the OS (including the ability to run in the background) and it will be just like Windows Mobile.

Throw in the G1's slide-out keyboard, and that's a big No Thanks for me.

Have you even used Windows Mobile? I have both gen iPhones, a BlackBerry 8800, and 8310, and a Moto Q which is based on Windows Mobile but with enough of a tweak to where it operates a lot like a BlackBerrry in that it has no stylus and is a one-hand operation.

Background apps on both the BlackBerry and the Moto Q are not at all a problem. They don't at all cause crashes. They don't kill the battery. The function as normally as multitasking on your Mac or PC. Only Apple has an issue with battery life on their mobile. I had always left JiveTalk, an IM client running on my BlackBerry for days on end with no battery loss. I was absolutely blown away when Apple made the claim to that effect.

A real keyboard is a big deal to a lot of people. And again, the G1 is not the sole Android device. Many will be small, like a BlackBerry Pearl. Some with have the form-factor of the BlackBerry Curve, BlackJack, Moto Q and Palm Treo. Some will no doubt be 100% touch-based. And some will be like the G1 and offer both.

Personally, I think the closed model Apple exhibits is the biggest mistake Apple could make. And I do believe Android will beat the iPhone. Open systems have always pulled ahead of closed systems, all things being equal.

Alex Alexzander

firewood
Oct 1, 2008, 02:11 PM
Make no mistake - NDA drop for released software means "we don't want people to know how to implement things we don't approve"...

I'd be fun if you could figure out a way to NDA stuff you don't own. For instance could Microsoft put an NDA on any random open source software just because the don't approve of it? Maybe I can NDA all your future email? Not likely.

.

espoir
Oct 1, 2008, 02:15 PM
The "released software" they are referring to is the SDK and the use thereof. Obviously, if it hasn't been released yet (the 2.2 SDK, as a fake example) you still can't talk about it. But 2.1 is (or will be, then the new NDA takes effect) fair game, because it has been released.

If so, it would be great! I think this idea could be possible :)

Darkroom
Oct 1, 2008, 02:17 PM
would love to see a Hillgass book "Cocoa Touch Programming for iPhone OS"... would buy it in a flash...

paja
Oct 1, 2008, 02:17 PM
I don't think he's a clueless Android supporter. I think Android holds a lot of promise as an open system. Judging it solely by the first product ever released would be silly.

Why not lose the attitude towards anyone with a thought that strays away from your beloved Apple. Talk about fanboi.

Alex Alexzander

1st of all from what I read he IS clueless about the iPhone and what applications are available at the store.

2nd. Have you had any hands on experience with the G1? How do you know it's so wonderful since it's NOT even shipping yet. At least with the iPhone we know the ups and downs or is the G1 the new Jesus phone that will save all of mankind?

3rd. I'm a DELL and Mac user and I'm hardly a Mac fanboy.

James-RSX
Oct 1, 2008, 02:22 PM
Open systems have always pulled ahead of closed systems, all things being equal.

Alex Alexzander


Yup, that's why Linux is so popular on PCs and Windoze is almost non-existant. :rolleyes:

Personally, I hope Android does well but I'm not about to give up my iPhone.

James-RSX
Oct 1, 2008, 02:31 PM
Nope, that's not what it means. Nowhere does it say it's restricted to only Apple-written unreleased software. It covers ALL unreleased iPhone apps, including apps that are unreleased because Apple refused to approve them.

This revision addresses a common complaint many developers have had; the NDA was so broad it prevented them from talking and sharing ideas and methods to write better software. So this change is a good thing. But this change does not help those developers who write code that Apple decides is too competitive to its own software and does not approve. They're still prevented from talking about why their software wasn't approved. And that's bad.

By your reasoning, the developers wouldn't be allowed to talk to anyone about their software projects UNTIL their software was released as they would still be under NDA. If their software has been released, why would they need to talk to other developers about coding issues?

I'm pretty sure the software they are referring to is Apple software. It most likely means that developers can now talk to one another about the 2.1 SDK and code but that anyone testing the 2.2 SDK is still under NDA.

Duality
Oct 1, 2008, 02:38 PM
A really, really positive move. This should help Apple out VS things like the android phones now too. =D

I still want to see the NDA on unreleased titles lifted though. That's totally ridiculous, because we'll continue to get incidents like the podcast aggregator program etc. @_@

sfoalex
Oct 1, 2008, 02:40 PM
Yup, that's why Linux is so popular on PCs and Windoze is almost non-existant. :rolleyes:

Personally, I hope Android does well but I'm not about to give up my iPhone.

Windows is an open system. iPhone is not. Perhaps you are confusing open system with open source. Two completely different concepts.

Alex Alexzander

sfoalex
Oct 1, 2008, 02:44 PM
1st of all from what I read he IS clueless about the iPhone and what applications are available at the store.

2nd. Have you had any hands on experience with the G1? How do you know it's so wonderful since it's NOT even shipping yet. At least with the iPhone we know the ups and downs or is the G1 the new Jesus phone that will save all of mankind?

3rd. I'm a DELL and Mac user and I'm hardly a Mac fanboy.

I have purchased over 50 apps on the iTunes store. Most are worthless. You give Apple way too much credit here. What I see are a bunch of games.

G1 shows promise. So please don't pull the old bull about no one has used it yet. We all know what it can do, and how many different companies plan to support it. That's enough to show promise. If you can't see that, get glasses.

Alex

jstanier
Oct 1, 2008, 02:46 PM
Hopefully this means that the big dev sites such as CocoaBuilder and their ilk will start filling up with useful conversation that's helpful to us developers. I certainly missed having those sites to search when programming!

grafikrobot
Oct 1, 2008, 02:53 PM
Even though we wont know the real extent of the Apple reversal we should all certainly thank the MacRumors reporting. It, and the follow-ups, certainly helped in pushing Apple in the right direction.

So, thank you arn and all the developers who expressed their displeasure.

Tulse
Oct 1, 2008, 02:55 PM
Open systems have always pulled ahead of closed systems, all things being equal.

How many open system gaming consoles have there been? Why haven't they trounced the Xbox, PSP, DS, etc. etc. etc.?

JoeG4
Oct 1, 2008, 02:57 PM
Apple shouldn't be allowed to put any restrictions whatsoever on their developers. Period.

nomar383
Oct 1, 2008, 03:10 PM
How many open system gaming consoles have there been? Why haven't they trounced the Xbox, PSP, DS, etc. etc. etc.?

Maybe if a large company were to release an "open system" there would be a prayer. But Joe Blow in his garage probably isn't going to bother.

All things being equal in this situation would mean: one xbox that has closed development and one xbox that has an open development system. I think the "open" platform would eventually pull ahead.

Like someone else mentioned, open system does not equal open source.

firewood
Oct 1, 2008, 03:11 PM
Apple shouldn't be allowed to put any restrictions whatsoever on their developers. Period.

There are no restrictions on developers who don't use Apple's copyrighted or patented code or API's.

But according to current laws, if you copyright or patent something, you can restrict anyone from using it in certain ways without your permission for a limited time.

.

firewood
Oct 1, 2008, 03:18 PM
Maybe if a large company were to release an "open system" there would be a prayer.

So tell me why, if it's a multi-billion dollar business, and an OSS system would come out on top according to you, some large company hasn't released a major OSS game system? If it were a guaranteed win, you'd think some big investment bank would have funded a big game hardware company instead of toxic mortgages.

MacOldTimer!
Oct 1, 2008, 03:25 PM
Finally. Good for developers.

Thank you Apple.

This still leaves Apple to accept or deny apps at their own discretion.

If this is Apples attempt at throwing a bone to the iPhone developers to prevent them from moving to Android I'd call it pathetic.

As a developer (which I'm not) they can spend 100's of hours developing an application that Apple May or May Not Accept.

Why Risk it when they can develop for Android with a completely open option to share what they are developing, get help from the development community and develop ANY application that they want to.

I'm sorry I don't agree with the room here but I see this as a weak attempt to hopefully get rid of a lot of bad press releases lately.

MacOldTimer!
Oct 1, 2008, 03:28 PM
glad to hear that developers can interact easier now without having to worry about the NDA. This can only improve the types of applications that we are getting nowadays.

It doesn't allow developers to discuss what they are developing. It only allows them to let people know that their app was rejected or allowed.

" Please note that unreleased software and features will remain under NDA until they are released."

sfoalex
Oct 1, 2008, 03:28 PM
So tell me why, if it's a multi-billion dollar business, and an OSS system would come out on top according to you, some large company hasn't released a major OSS game system? If it were a guaranteed win, you'd think some big investment bank would have funded a big game hardware company instead of toxic mortgages.

OSS refers to Open Source Systems. Again, you are confused. You can have a closed source and an open system, which is what Windows is. And you can have an Open Source on an Open System which is what Linux is.

Windows as an Open System certainly beat the heck out of Apple despite Apple's 5 year lead on the PC. Why? Because Compaq, HP, IBM, Dell, Fujitsu, Acer, Packard Bell, Sony, Leading Edge, and on and on all contributed to the success of that Open System. It indeed won.

IBMs Micro Channel Architecture lost to EISA because manufactures wanted something open. Most everything in the typical PC you enjoy today is part of an open system. PCI, PCIe, PCIx, etc etc are all Open System. And yes, all things being that tends to win.

Watch and see what happens. The Android platforms represents a close tie in terms of technology to that used in the iPhone. Except it's open. I'll switch to that in a heart-beat as soon as someone writes sync for Outlook / Exchange and SalesForce mobile shows up. Provide that, and I'm there.

Alex Alexzander

digitalbiker
Oct 1, 2008, 03:49 PM
It doesn't allow developers to discuss what they are developing. It only allows them to let people know that their app was rejected or allowed.

" Please note that unreleased software and features will remain under NDA until they are released."

We don't know that for sure until the final NDA comes out. I think most of us believe that this is only referring to Apple branded unreleased software. This would mean developers couldn't discuss unreleased versions of the iphone OS, firmware updates, Apple custom software,etc.

However I really doubt that Apple is extending the reduced NDA to include a developers unreleased software.

This will be exactly like it is for the mac on OS X. Developers sign an NDA and can't discuss future Apple OS releases or unreleased Apple software. But all developers are free to discuss their own software whether it is released or not.

imcquill
Oct 1, 2008, 03:59 PM
This will be exactly like it is for the mac on OS X. Developers sign an NDA and can't discuss future Apple OS releases or unreleased Apple software. But all developers are free to discuss their own software whether it is released or not.

This is as I understand it as well. However, if this is the case, is there anything stopping one developer from sharing their source code with another developer? If they have both paid the $99 to be able run compiled code on the phone, can they trade apps?

I'm wondering if Podcaster, for example, can just put their source up online, or perhaps even charge for their source. And then anyone who wants it can get it, hit 'build and run' and then they have the app on their phone.

And if this were possible, it would also mean it would be possible to bypass Apple's 30% cut at the app store (if you've paid the $99).

Lictor
Oct 1, 2008, 04:04 PM
As a developer (which I'm not) they can spend 100's of hours developing an application that Apple May or May Not Accept.

Well, at least, with the NDA lifted, one can hope to turn the 100s of hours into mere dozens. Because having courses, books, a support community and public APIs will just do that. When you have worked with platforms like J2EE, this is something you learn very early on : the ecosystem is everything. Strip Java of all the Open Source frameworks, the support API, the application servers, and there is not much left... Now, the iPhone platform will start developing a proper ecosystem, and in itself, that is huge.

But yes, something must also be done on the AppStore. And not only with the approval process, but also with the rating system (though a first step has been made by disallowing comments from non-buyers) and the indexing system. Too many applications, and no reliable way to find the good ones...

firewood
Oct 1, 2008, 04:04 PM
It doesn't allow developers to discuss what they are developing.

What interesting legal theory would allow you to put stuff under NDA to which you don't own the rights?

.

iphonewiz
Oct 1, 2008, 04:05 PM
Excellent! Now we will get extensive third party tutorials and robust developer commentary!

iSee
Oct 1, 2008, 04:08 PM
I don't think he's a clueless Android supporter. I think Android holds a lot of promise as an open system. Judging it solely by the first product ever released would be silly.

Why not lose the attitude towards anyone with a thought that strays away from your beloved Apple. Talk about fanboi.

Alex Alexzander

From your response, I assume you didn't read the original post paja was refering to. Also, paja called the poster clueless, but didn't judge the Andriod platform at all. For all we know he thinks it's the greatest thing ever.

Why so defensive?

firewood
Oct 1, 2008, 04:16 PM
As a developer (which I'm not) they can spend 100's of hours developing an application that Apple May or May Not Accept.

This is not unusual.

Big businesses (Walmart, Target, Sears, Safeway, et.al.) often refuse shelf space to products for any number of reasons. There are whole books on this topic. This has caused businesses betting on that amount of shelf space to go under. Most start-up businesses fail anyway, statistically. There is no guarantee that 100's or even 1000's of hours of development will pay off in any market. What matters is not the risk of failure, but the reward to risk ratio compared to doing something else.

lucasgladding
Oct 1, 2008, 04:18 PM
Well, at least, with the NDA lifted, one can hope to turn the 100s of hours into mere dozens...

The NDA changes should help somewhat, but there were plenty of Mac-specific resources that taught most of the details of the iPhone SDK already. Even the table view data source and delegate are setup very similar to what has been on the Mac for years. That said, the changes to the iPhone SDK probably foreshadow the changes coming to 10.6 and 10.7.

I am eager to see discussion forums grow to truly useful resources. Something like cocoadev.com for the iPhone would be great.

Kind regards

Stile
Oct 1, 2008, 04:27 PM
I think it's kind of funny when people talk about "winning". I seriously doubt Android is going to kill the iPhone. But there probably will be more Android phones out there than iPhones. But which one is better is always going to be a matter of opinion. People will like one or the other for different reasons. The person who likes the iPhone over an Android phone will think the iPhone won and the person who likes an Android phone over the iPhone will think Android won. But in the end it's opinion as to which one is better. But if you are talking purely about number of phones, yeah, you're probably right. Anyone can go and make a platform that will run Android, you can't do that with the iPhone's OS.

I currently have an iPhone and a Moto Q before that. My Moto Q was regularly left behind but my iPhone is always with me. But I'm biased towards iPods, and that's just my opinion :)

Sbrocket
Oct 1, 2008, 04:28 PM
It doesn't allow developers to discuss what they are developing. It only allows them to let people know that their app was rejected or allowed.

" Please note that unreleased software and features will remain under NDA until they are released."

Apple is going to place property that they don't own rights to under NDA? I think not. What you proposed that they're restricting is legally impossible. You've actually got it completely backwards - developers can discuss what they're developing, but they can't reveal details of AppStore rejections still.

Unreleased software was never under NDA. The problem was the SDK being under NDA, not developer's software. Releasing the source code for iPhone apps prior to this lifting of the NDA would have released details of the iPhone SDK, and therefore wasn't allowed.

Apple can't legally restrict developers from discussing what they were developing at any point whether or not there's an NDA in effect over the SDK. Developers simply couldn't disclose details or source for their applications that would reveal details of the SDK.

In any case, this is all completely off-base - this notice deals with Apple's software (the iPhone OS, the SDK, and such) and being able to discuss released versions of those tools. The sentence that many people are debating over was merely added to make sure that developers with access to beta, pre-release versions of these tools understood that those tools were still under NDA until they were released.

Tulse
Oct 1, 2008, 04:29 PM
I'm wondering if Podcaster, for example, can just put their source up online, or perhaps even charge for their source. And then anyone who wants it can get it, hit 'build and run' and then they have the app on their phone.

Anyone, as you note, who is an iPhone developer and has paid $99. My guess is that is a pretty limited market.

Adjei
Oct 1, 2008, 04:31 PM
So how does this stop them from arbitrarily preventing apps from appearing in the store?

Nice bit of backtracking though.Aren't y'all the same dudes who complain there are too many apps in the store and when they decide to limit what gets in y'all still complain..:rolleyes:

gmanrique
Oct 1, 2008, 04:33 PM
It still prevents developers from discussing unreleased (to the public) iPhone OS software or features. It has nothing to do with Developers' apps, unless of course said app uses a yet to bereleased feature or version of the iPhone OS Software.

It doesn't allow developers to discuss what they are developing. It only allows them to let people know that their app was rejected or allowed.

" Please note that unreleased software and features will remain under NDA until they are released."

Adjei
Oct 1, 2008, 04:45 PM
ok 2 things. 1 before the agreement... Apps still sucked. So I still doubt we are going to see any really useful applications besides the games. 2nd... Apple didn't listen to us... Or you... Or any customers at all. They are scared of the 1 big threat that comes along with the g1. Compare to the iPhone we all saw and read g1 isn't that exciting. Best part out of the gates is 3.2 megapixel camera, mms, and copy/paste. The one thing everyone has their eye out for on the g1 is a developers platform with little to no rules. No restrictions. Developers can mimic and completly replace basic functions the g1 comes with such as mms, the phone app, gpas, and so on. Apple is creating the illusion that it will lighten up but even before this agreement iPhone apps were still fairly useless. Let's face of the iPhone is good for how it looks/feels and the news/games. Other than that. G1 seems a little more exciting. That's all I am just saying. Don't be fooled.Can I put headphone in your g1 ?

Adjei
Oct 1, 2008, 04:52 PM
I don't think he's a clueless Android supporter. I think Android holds a lot of promise as an open system. Judging it solely by the first product ever released would be silly.

Why not lose the attitude towards anyone with a thought that strays away from your beloved Apple. Talk about fanboi.

Alex AlexzanderDidn't you read the crap the dude just wrote, he registered for the forum just to talk about the g1 vs iphone, I mean come on.

Adjei
Oct 1, 2008, 04:53 PM
Have you even used Windows Mobile? I have both gen iPhones, a BlackBerry 8800, and 8310, and a Moto Q which is based on Windows Mobile but with enough of a tweak to where it operates a lot like a BlackBerrry in that it has no stylus and is a one-hand operation.

Background apps on both the BlackBerry and the Moto Q are not at all a problem. They don't at all cause crashes. They don't kill the battery. The function as normally as multitasking on your Mac or PC. Only Apple has an issue with battery life on their mobile. I had always left JiveTalk, an IM client running on my BlackBerry for days on end with no battery loss. I was absolutely blown away when Apple made the claim to that effect.

A real keyboard is a big deal to a lot of people. And again, the G1 is not the sole Android device. Many will be small, like a BlackBerry Pearl. Some with have the form-factor of the BlackBerry Curve, BlackJack, Moto Q and Palm Treo. Some will no doubt be 100% touch-based. And some will be like the G1 and offer both.

Personally, I think the closed model Apple exhibits is the biggest mistake Apple could make. And I do believe Android will beat the iPhone. Open systems have always pulled ahead of closed systems, all things being equal.

Alex AlexzanderSo go buy a G1 for all we care.

Adjei
Oct 1, 2008, 04:55 PM
OSS refers to Open Source Systems. Again, you are confused. You can have a closed source and an open system, which is what Windows is. And you can have an Open Source on an Open System which is what Linux is.

Windows as an Open System certainly beat the heck out of Apple despite Apple's 5 year lead on the PC. Why? Because Compaq, HP, IBM, Dell, Fujitsu, Acer, Packard Bell, Sony, Leading Edge, and on and on all contributed to the success of that Open System. It indeed won.

IBMs Micro Channel Architecture lost to EISA because manufactures wanted something open. Most everything in the typical PC you enjoy today is part of an open system. PCI, PCIe, PCIx, etc etc are all Open System. And yes, all things being that tends to win.

Watch and see what happens. The Android platforms represents a close tie in terms of technology to that used in the iPhone. Except it's open. I'll switch to that in a heart-beat as soon as someone writes sync for Outlook / Exchange and SalesForce mobile shows up. Provide that, and I'm there.

Alex AlexzanderSo what happened to Windows Mobile, isn't it open..:rolleyes:

dejo
Oct 1, 2008, 04:59 PM
A real keyboard is a big deal to a lot of people. And again, the G1 is not the sole Android device. Many will be small, like a BlackBerry Pearl. Some with have the form-factor of the BlackBerry Curve, BlackJack, Moto Q and Palm Treo. Some will no doubt be 100% touch-based. And some will be like the G1 and offer both.
Should be fun trying to write apps with all those variables. ;)

firewood
Oct 1, 2008, 05:14 PM
The Android platforms represents a close tie in terms of technology to that used in the iPhone.

The iPhone is not selling well due to just its hardware technology.

.

MacOldTimer!
Oct 1, 2008, 05:14 PM
Apple is going to place property that they don't own rights to under NDA? I think not. What you proposed that they're restricting is legally impossible. You've actually got it completely backwards - developers can discuss what they're developing, but they can't reveal details of AppStore rejections still.

Unreleased software was never under NDA. The problem was the SDK being under NDA, not developer's software. Releasing the source code for iPhone apps prior to this lifting of the NDA would have released details of the iPhone SDK, and therefore wasn't allowed.

Apple can't legally restrict developers from discussing what they were developing at any point whether or not there's an NDA in effect over the SDK. Developers simply couldn't disclose details or source for their applications that would reveal details of the SDK.

In any case, this is all completely off-base - this notice deals with Apple's software (the iPhone OS, the SDK, and such) and being able to discuss released versions of those tools. The sentence that many people are debating over was merely added to make sure that developers with access to beta, pre-release versions of these tools understood that those tools were still under NDA until they were released.

The quote I gave was right from the Article on MacRumors. Although I believe the New York Times Article from today sums it up much better than I can.

Link and quote from Article.

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/01/a-slice-of-glasnost-at-apple/

"Despite its Soviet style of communication, Apple is certainly signaling that it understands that needs to keep its developers—some of its most fervent advocates—from becoming so angry they will switch their efforts to Google’s Android or other projects. "

James-RSX
Oct 1, 2008, 05:39 PM
This still leaves Apple to accept or deny apps at their own discretion.

If this is Apples attempt at throwing a bone to the iPhone developers to prevent them from moving to Android I'd call it pathetic.

I'd call it good business. They kept THEIR SDK under NDA until they had filed any and all patents on the material they deemed neccessary to patent so that some patent troll couldn't come along, download the SDK, find something and file a patent, and then sue. Once they finished, they lift the NDA. I don't see the problem.

As a developer (which I'm not) they can spend 100's of hours developing an application that Apple May or May Not Accept.

That's the price to play the game. It works the same in almost any business model. Best case, your app gets accepted, the public want it and you make oodles of money, as we've already seen with some apps. Worst case, Apple doesn't like your app, or some of the features in it, they deny it, and you're out of luck.

Why Risk it when they can develop for Android with a completely open option to share what they are developing, get help from the development community and develop ANY application that they want to.

Android is not completely open. I've already seen an article where they've said that they will remove software they deem malicious, malware, etc. If that's the case, what's to prevent them from seeing your software as malware? Also, although a lot of companies have SAID they will support Android and release products, so far, we have only one product that isn't even on the market yet. Until there are multiple phones running Android, I wouldn't call it a success.

Since Apple have lifted the NDA on their released software, iPhone developers are now free to seek help from the iPhone development community, so your point is invalid.

Also, iPhone developers are free to develop ANY app that they care to. Apple however do not have to accept it into the official app store. If any developer is scared of being denied, they always can go the jailbroken app route and release ANY app they care to through that community.

I'm sorry I don't agree with the room here but I see this as a weak attempt to hopefully get rid of a lot of bad press releases lately.

That's your choice. No one said you had to agree. I however do not have to agree with you either.

Adjei
Oct 1, 2008, 06:03 PM
The iPhone is not selling well due to just its hardware technology.

.The iphone is not selling well ? :D

James-RSX
Oct 1, 2008, 06:14 PM
The iPhone is not selling well due to just its hardware technology.

.

I wish I had a product not selling as well as the iPhone! ;)

I bet Microsoft wishes they had a product not selling half as well as the iPhone!

All the other carriers most likely wish they had a product that wouldn't sell as well as the iphone either! :rolleyes:

Sbrocket
Oct 1, 2008, 06:22 PM
The iPhone is not selling well due to just its hardware technology.

Man, I wish my software "didn't sell" as well as the iPhone sells. :D

A tad out of touch, are we? :P

http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/12/Market%20Share%20iPhone%20GI.jpg
^ That was 10 months ago, before the iPhone 3G was even announced. Imagine what that graph looks like now.

iDarbert
Oct 1, 2008, 06:29 PM
Actually, I think he means the iPhone is indeed selling well but not just because of the hardware.

Gamoe
Oct 1, 2008, 07:09 PM
I don't understand the restrictions in the first place. Surely developers can talk about what they are creating. Surely, the can discuss the language they are writing in. So what's secret? The APIs? To "protect Apple"? Why?

How come the Mac has gotten along just fine without needing devs to enter into an NDA when developing? What's going on here?

P.S. I don't know who would vote this as "negative". It is definitely "positive", but clarification is needed.

MacOldTimer!
Oct 1, 2008, 07:17 PM
I don't think the New York Times agrees this is a win.

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/01/a-slice-of-glasnost-at-apple/


A Slice of Glasnost at Apple
By SAUL HANSELL
Apple has made a core strategic tenet that it will keep information about its future plans completely obscured from public view. It was able to rewrite its entire operating system for the Intel platform in secret over several years by dividing the task up into several groups who were not allowed to communicate with each other.

But Apple’s penchant for secrecy sometimes is expressed in ridiculous extremes. For example, it made people who used its software development kit for the iPhone, which is wide release, sign non-disclosure agreements. Among other effects, this appeared to make it impossible to write a book about how to develop applications for the iPhone.

Today Apple relented a bit. It announced that it would no longer enforce its non-disclosure agreement for software it has released:

The NDA has created too much of a burden on developers, authors and others interested in helping further the iPhone’s success.

Software that hasn’t been released is still covered by the agreement.

That certainly sounds like a sensible distinction: Companies have a right to keep things that are secret a secret, but once the cat is out of the bag, it can’t be a secret any more.

There have been an increasing number developers complaining that Apple is making it too hard for developers, such as in this blog post on Ars Technica.

Despite its Soviet style of communication, Apple is certainly signaling that it understands that needs to keep its developers—some of its most fervent advocates—from becoming so angry they will switch their efforts to Google’s Android or other projects.

Earlier this week, Apple tweaked a few policies that had made some developers feel that the marketplace in the iTunes App store was unfair. Now you have to have bought the application to be able to review it. And a developer can’t simply make a minor modification in a program to jump to the top of the list of new applications.

At the same time, Apple still hasn’t answered in any clear way what applications it will reject because they compete with its existing business. And it hasn’t reversed its recent decision to argue that its decision to reject an application is covered by the non-disclosure agreement.

Ultimately, Apple has chosen to make its business a bit more like that of eBay: It now has to manage a diverse crew of independent entrepreneurs who rely on its ecosystem for their livelihood. Like eBay sellers, iPhone developers are going to be very vocal about all of the nuances of Apple’s program. That is very different than simply making a computer that anyone can write programs for without asking permission.

It is not clear how much of Apple’s culture of secrecy and control will really evolve to support this new aspect of its business model. But the pressure is on.

firewood
Oct 1, 2008, 08:16 PM
Apple's culture of secrecy and control is one of the reasons they are still in business. They watched Osborne destroy itself due to lack of secrecy. And heavy handed control is what kept their products from turning into something indistinguishable from everybody else's product, which leads to no profit margin. The time periods (after the II+) when they were the most open were also around the years when they had their lowest profit margins (if any) in company history.

Maldini
Oct 1, 2008, 08:23 PM
A comment i really like from Digg
Thank Android.
Competition is good!
Spot on!

FoxyKaye
Oct 1, 2008, 08:36 PM
"Constructive feedback" - this made me giggle a little.

I'm sure getting hammered in the press and blogosphere, and many a developer crying afoul to the tune of multiply-repeated curses and foreswearing developing on the iPhone had nothing to do with it. Indeed, it was probably a hand-written letter from Ms. Edna Smith in Anytown, Indiana whose precise cursive and delicately imploring pleas was what changed Apple's opinion.

:rolleyes:

Stella
Oct 1, 2008, 09:22 PM
About time, that NDA:

* stiffled iPhone development
* did nothing to stop competitors from getting insight into iPhone - they could download the sdk freely and investigate.

Apple was blowing smoke and making excuses.

Anyway, its good that Apple have withdrawn the NDA - now developers can talk and share ideas freely - oh, and books too.



That's the price to play the game. It works the same in almost any business model. Best case, your app gets accepted, the public want it and you make oodles of money, as we've already seen with some apps. Worst case, Apple doesn't like your app, or some of the features in it, they deny it, and you're out of luck.

Not the case in software - rejected iPhone Apps didn't get a chance to see the light of day. If Apple reject your app, you can't go to the next publisher ( or website ) to offer your goods as you can any other smartphone O/S or operating system. So, its not the same.

Hodum
Oct 1, 2008, 09:53 PM
I really hope O'Reilly (anyone really) puts out a programming book ASAP.

digitalbiker
Oct 1, 2008, 10:24 PM
I really hope O'Reilly (anyone really) puts out a programming book ASAP.

You do realize that Apple has a fairly extensive set of tutorials and examples for the developer. Most people will be able to get up and going without the need for an O'Reilly book.

MacGeek7
Oct 1, 2008, 10:36 PM
Think of all the "How-To" books that are finished but couldn't be published...

exigentsky
Oct 1, 2008, 11:15 PM
Good, but a bit late. Apple just realized it couldn't get away with it, but did not do so willingly. I wonder if they'll drop the NDA on rejection notices too.

Doctor Q
Oct 1, 2008, 11:21 PM
The 34 people who voted negative on this story are hard to please.

firewood
Oct 2, 2008, 12:27 AM
Not the case in software - rejected iPhone Apps didn't get a chance to see the light of day. If Apple reject your app, you can't go to the next publisher ( or website ) to offer your goods as you can any other smartphone O/S or operating system. So, its not the same.

Not so. Several iPhone developers also distribute versions of their apps for WinMob and PalmOS. And there are other phone platforms besides the iPhone where the phone company is the gatekeeper for any app distribution (NGuage? Brew?).

As for the NDA being useless, you might want to read Apple's legal history, and talk to a good patent attorney before doing your own multi-million-dollar funded tech startup. (I've seen some huge legal bills related to multi-million dollar lawsuits over patents and NDAs.)


.

Lictor
Oct 2, 2008, 12:55 AM
That's the price to play the game. It works the same in almost any business model.

Not really.
For instance, as a service company in the IT industry, we compete with each others based on *proposals*. No sane client would require us to develop a full solution before it would decide to pick it or not. Such a client would never find any contractor.
What you describe might be acceptable for students or hobbyist looking for some quick cash with an investment of a few weeks of their free time. It's not acceptable for business seeking to make money by developing real applications that measures in man-months or even man-years.
That's why the current stance of Apple is artificially limiting the AppStore market to toy applications. The business model can't support real complex applications, because they take too much ressources and money to build and then the risk is too high. Best to focus on yet another torchlight or todo application...

Best case, your app gets accepted, the public want it and you make oodles of money, as we've already seen with some apps.

Again, that's thinking at best as a freelancer. "Oodles" of money looks just like regular money for a normal sized company.

Also, iPhone developers are free to develop ANY app that they care to.

Errrr, no, they can't. The SDK doesn't expose everything. There are some parts of the iPhone that are still off-limit, including critical parts such as the music library or the agenda. Likewise, you can't build background applications, you can't build applications that react to external network events unless they're active...
Likewise, the current Apple policy doesn't allow for some kind of applications, such as plugins (Flash), launchers (Java) or GPS (TomTom).
So, the freedom is very relative... It's like saying a prisonner is perfectly free to walk around his 3x3 cell however he fancies to. Sure, he is, but I wouldn't call that "freedom"...

Lictor
Oct 2, 2008, 01:00 AM
Not so. Several iPhone developers also distribute versions of their apps for WinMob and PalmOS.

There is so much difference between the iPhone and PalmOS that you can consider it a different application... The only common ground would be the idea, some design and maybe the data model. Everything else will be specific work on the iPhone. And if your application really takes advantages of the specifics of the iPhone, there will be very little work factored between these platforms.

As for the NDA being useless, you might want to read Apple's legal history, and talk to a good patent attorney before doing your own multi-million-dollar funded tech startup.

Actually did that, the attorney answer was that patent are useless in the software world if you have a real innovation to protect, since they force you to publish internal details that are best kept hidden. Especially since software patents do not exist in part of the world. Patents are good to protect an "innovative" process, such as the single-click order (Amazon), the embedding of objects in markup language or multi-touch gestures.

LeoLohan
Oct 2, 2008, 03:18 AM
Its reaLLy good news thanks for it aPPLe:D

fat phil
Oct 2, 2008, 04:13 AM
[Regarding reader hopes for iPhone starter books] You do realize that Apple has a fairly extensive set of tutorials and examples for the developer. Most people will be able to get up and going without the need for an O'Reilly book.

I agree with Digital Biker on this subject. The iPhone SDK is easily one of the best and easiest platforms to grasp from the get-go that I've ever come across, and is quite amazing for something so 'new'. It easily trumps Microsoft's XNA, despite the latter's existing community and lack of NDA.

As someone already pointed out, this isn't a 100% concession from Apple, as they still hold the vague rejection policy.

So as ever, the glass is either half full, or it is too big. Woot! regardless ;)

darkyeffectt
Oct 2, 2008, 05:50 AM
This move from Apple was motived for two things:

1) Developers' cry out.

2) Android's apparition with a platform without locks for developers.

Follow this link for a more detailed analysis about the real reason for Apple's NDA drop.

http://applediario.com/2008/10/02/apple-retira-el-nda-al-iphone/

goosnarrggh
Oct 2, 2008, 06:40 AM
Can someone who really understood this please explain how this is a big deal?

It's just non "disclosure" agreement. So now I think developers will be able to disclose 2.2 features before 2.2 is officially released to all.
Not at all. Features of any "unreleased software" remain under NDA. No matter how limited or wide-ranging your interpretation of that "unreleased software" restriction, I think it seems fairly unquestionable that it must include versions of the iPhone OS that haven't been released yet, but have been disclosed as a preview to a select group of developers.

The previous NDA prevented me from discussing some very generic procedures such as explaining the way in which you'd go about making a dialog box with text appear on the screen, or how to react to the fact that a button on the screen had been pressed. Discussing these very basic procedures was banned because Apple said you couldn't disclose anything about Apple's intellectual property, and the SDK function calls you'd have to make use of to perform these tasks are Apple's property.

Under the new agreement, most people seem to predict (but I cannot correlate because I haven't actually seen the new agreement myself) that it will now be possible to discuss those topics, and any other topics that are covered by the currently generally released version of the SDK and its related documentation.

johndawg1973
Oct 2, 2008, 08:02 AM
Seems like the folks at :apple: see the writing on the wall with Android.

Time to peel back the 'iron curtain' and let the developers compete...

James-RSX
Oct 2, 2008, 08:23 AM
Not the case in software - rejected iPhone Apps didn't get a chance to see the light of day. If Apple reject your app, you can't go to the next publisher ( or website ) to offer your goods as you can any other smartphone O/S or operating system. So, its not the same.

I'm sorry, but any developer that entered into iPhone development without knowing that there is a chance Apple may deny your application, which was stated during the announcement for the initial SDK beta, is a fool. Knowing this fact, a developer would have to decide if they wanted to spend the time creating an application on the chance that it may NEVER see the iPhone home screen. If they chose to go ahead, and the app got rejected, tough noogies.

Now please don't get me wrong, I think Apple could do a MUCH better job in stating what they will and will not reject, but ultimately, it's not like no one knew that their app might not pass the test.

I would like to see Apple start a pre-approval system for apps. That way, you send them an outline of what your app will do, possibly even some screen shots or general screen layout drawings, and they reply with a "continue" or "don't bother" stamp.

Under this system, there would still have to be the final approval stage since I'm SURE some of the developers would take advantage and try to add some of the things that have gotten apps rejected to date to their programs after the pre-approval. At least in a system like this, a developer would not have to spend the 1000s of hours (a number I don't agree with but alot are thowing it around as the general app development time) only to find out they've been rejected.

Radam
Oct 2, 2008, 09:14 AM
Now can someone please at least attempt to make a MMS app? Its getting a bit ridiculous that there isn't one yet.

James-RSX
Oct 2, 2008, 09:16 AM
That's the price to play the game. It works the same in almost any business model.

Not really.
For instance, as a service company in the IT industry, we compete with each others based on *proposals*. No sane client would require us to develop a full solution before it would decide to pick it or not. Such a client would never find any contractor.
What you describe might be acceptable for students or hobbyist looking for some quick cash with an investment of a few weeks of their free time. It's not acceptable for business seeking to make money by developing real applications that measures in man-months or even man-years.
That's why the current stance of Apple is artificially limiting the AppStore market to toy applications. The business model can't support real complex applications, because they take too much ressources and money to build and then the risk is too high. Best to focus on yet another torchlight or todo application...

I don't disagree with you, any highly technical app will require many man-hours to develop and most companies would not create the app without a contract.

On that same line of thinking, do you think the fart app was done by a professional company or a freelancer? How about podcaster? The other main one, NetShare??, would be closer to a pro app. Ok, lets look one by one shall we:

Pull My Finger:
A totally useless app, crude to some, but not unlike the many useless apps already in the store
Most likely done by a "freelancer" since no professional shop would release something like this
I highly doubt it took 1000s of hours to develop


PodCaster:
Useful to some
Allowed over the air syncing of podcasts, which violated the SDK guidleines
Most likely done by a freelancer, since a professional shop would either seek better clarification before proceeding
The response from the developer after rejection was not "professional"


NetShare???:
Useful to most likely many
Allowed tethering the iPhone to your laptop to provide an internet connection
Probably took a considerable amount of time to develop, although I believe this came from the jailbreak community, so some code may have already been completed and just ported over
This one is more likely to come from not quite a freelancer but not quite a professional shop either
Did not violate any Apple policies, but did violate the policies of AT&T and some other service providers


In all these cases, they took the chance that the app would be allowed, some knowing (or they SHOULD have known) that it would be rejected because of blatant violations. They decided to gamble that it would get through and they could make their money.



Best case, your app gets accepted, the public want it and you make oodles of money, as we've already seen with some apps.

Again, that's thinking at best as a freelancer. "Oodles" of money looks just like regular money for a normal sized company.

From the responses of some of the rejected developers, I cannot class them as "a normal size company". I have a hard time classing them as "freelancers", as even a freelancer would have a certain level of professionalism. If I had to give a definition, it would be more like a spoiled child. "I brought my own toys but you're not letting me play in your toy box. I'm gonna tell mom"



Also, iPhone developers are free to develop ANY app that they care to.


Errrr, no, they can't. The SDK doesn't expose everything. There are some parts of the iPhone that are still off-limit, including critical parts such as the music library or the agenda. Likewise, you can't build background applications, you can't build applications that react to external network events unless they're active...
Likewise, the current Apple policy doesn't allow for some kind of applications, such as plugins (Flash), launchers (Java) or GPS (TomTom).
So, the freedom is very relative... It's like saying a prisonner is perfectly free to walk around his 3x3 cell however he fancies to. Sure, he is, but I wouldn't call that "freedom"...

Ok, I should have clarified that statement a bit more by saying "Also, iPhone developers are free to develop ANY app that they care to so long as it follows the SDK guidlines".

Any parts that are off limits, such as the music library or the agenda, are just that...off limits. Everyone was told background applications wouldn't be allowed when the SDK was released, if you didn't pay attention, that's your problem. (***Please read you and your as referring to ANY developer, not specifically you***) Also, we were told Apple will be releasing a push service that could be accessed by some apps to alert a user to activity, much like leaving the app running in the background but easier on the battery.

This hasn't been released yet, but it is coming. If you want it, wait.

Finally, plugins (Flash), launchers (Java) and GPS (TomTom) as you state were all specifically mentioned in the SDK as not allowed. I don't see the problem. If you don't like the rules, develop for the jailbreak community. They have access to all (or at least most) of what you mention above.

MacOldTimer!
Oct 2, 2008, 09:33 AM
[QUOTE=James-RSX;6339256]I don't disagree with you, any highly technical app will require many man-hours to develop and most companies would not create the app without a contract.

On that same line of thinking, do you think the fart app was done by a professional company or a freelancer? How about podcaster? The other main one, NetShare??, would be closer to a pro app. Ok, lets look one by one shall we:

Pull My Finger:
A totally useless app, crude to some, but not unlike the many useless apps already in the store
Most likely done by a "freelancer" since no professional shop would release something like this
I highly doubt it took 1000s of hours to develop

[QUOTE]

That's part of the point to this debate. Just because you don't find "pull my finger" useful you find it OK for Apple to arbitrarily remove it.

Many people have found the joke funny for years.

Koi Pond in my opinion is totally useless but it has been one of the top applications from the day it was posted.

Pull my finger doesn't break any of Apple's rules for iPhone development.

When Apple can be judge and jury as you have been in your reply it doesn't give developers any reason to try and get Apples approval when they can openly develop for a number of other mobile platforms now.

This is the main reason the App Store is full of Tip Calculators and Flashlights.
Why would a developer (unless your a gamer, which I'm not) develop for the iPhone.

My 2G & 3G iPhones are going to quickly fall behind other phones coming to the market because Apple gives no reason for developers to take the chance on possibly being accepted.

firewood
Oct 2, 2008, 10:06 AM
[QUOTE=James-RSX;6339256]any highly technical app will require many man-hours to develop and most companies would not create the app without a contract.

How quickly you forget the PC and dotcom era's, when billions of dollars were spent developing highly technical hardware and software without any contracts or customers signed-up. Or the biotech industry, where a company can invest 100's of millions and end up with a profitable cure for something, or just another vat of toxic substance (depending on the FDA's rulings). Some of the companies that took these risks are still around and doing quite well.


.

James-RSX
Oct 2, 2008, 10:23 AM
When Apple can be judge and jury as you have been in your reply it doesn't give developers any reason to try and get Apples approval when they can openly develop for a number of other mobile platforms now.

This is the main reason the App Store is full of Tip Calculators and Flashlights.
Why would a developer (unless your a gamer, which I'm not) develop for the iPhone.

My 2G & 3G iPhones are going to quickly fall behind other phones coming to the market because Apple gives no reason for developers to take the chance on possibly being accepted.

Wouldn't the fact that an app made $250,000 in about 2 months give any developer enough reason to try and get Apple's approval? It would for me. But I guess, if someone were independantly wealthy, it might not be enough incentive. :rolleyes:

This very well could be the reason for so many Tip Calculators and Flashlights as you say. But couldn't another reason be that they are VERY EASY to develop and quickly get into the store, thereby making money for the developer? Wouldn't a more complicated application take months to write, troubleshoot, and test before it showed up in the store? Hmmmm, how long has the store been open???? Oh yeah, not quite 3 months.

If you're so fearful of your 2G and 3G iPhones falling behind, sell them and move to one of the hot moving, better than sliced bread phone platforms you keep referring to. While you're moving, let me know the address of that awesome Android app store will you? I hear they have millions of great, useful applications.

While your at it, you might want to send an update on the great, closed source, open system Windows Mobile platform that has caused such a stir in the mobile phone industry making EVERYONE wanted a smartphone.

Thomas2006
Oct 2, 2008, 11:47 AM
This has nothing to do with how apps get distributed. Apps will still need to be cryptographically "signed" by Apple to run, so no, this will not lead to non-App Store distribution. It does mean that developers can "open source" their code, but the actual app will still need to go through the App Store (or the other official channels) to run on iPhones.
I do not own an iPhone/iPod touch, so I am recalling this from memory, but I thought developers could install their applications onto their iPhone without going through the App Store. If true, then shouldn't developers be able to put their source code, if not the actual project, on the web where users could download it, create a project, import the files, compile the application, and install it on their phone. This is basically how the Linux world works, right?

Even if Apple were to put some kind of code into the project to prevent or minimize this type of sharing, developers could at least make their code available since they are plain text files. The only other thing developers would need to do is provide directions for creating the user interface so the code will work.

MacOldTimer!
Oct 2, 2008, 12:45 PM
Wouldn't the fact that an app made $250,000 in about 2 months give any developer enough reason to try and get Apple's approval? It would for me. But I guess, if someone were independantly wealthy, it might not be enough incentive. :rolleyes:

This very well could be the reason for so many Tip Calculators and Flashlights as you say. But couldn't another reason be that they are VERY EASY to develop and quickly get into the store, thereby making money for the developer? Wouldn't a more complicated application take months to write, troubleshoot, and test before it showed up in the store? Hmmmm, how long has the store been open???? Oh yeah, not quite 3 months.

If you're so fearful of your 2G and 3G iPhones falling behind, sell them and move to one of the hot moving, better than sliced bread phone platforms you keep referring to. While you're moving, let me know the address of that awesome Android app store will you? I hear they have millions of great, useful applications.

While your at it, you might want to send an update on the great, closed source, open system Windows Mobile platform that has caused such a stir in the mobile phone industry making EVERYONE wanted a smartphone.

Unlike most kids that are getting the money for the new toys from their parents I can't afford to just "move on" to a new platform when the latest and greatest comes out.

I am being so outspoken to make people aware that Apple is doing exactly what they did with the Mac and that is why it is at 5-8% market share when windows has the lead.

They are making the same mistakes and can fade as quickly as Motorola's Razor did.

If it means moving to a new platform I would have my choice in 6 months of many phones that will be as good if not better than the iPhone.

Many are starting to get the elegant easy to use feel of the iPhone and it's only a matter of time until someone surpasses it while Apple is busy seeding the world with yesterdays technology.

Tulse
Oct 2, 2008, 02:12 PM
I thought developers could install their applications onto their iPhone without going through the App Store.

Yes, that is exactly right, developers can do so, because they have paid the $99 for the iPhone Developer Program.

If true, then shouldn't developers be able to put their source code, if not the actual project, on the web where users could download it, create a project, import the files, compile the application, and install it on their phone.

Only if those "users" have also paid $99 and been accepted into the iPhone Developer Program. "Regular" users are out of luck.

firewood
Oct 4, 2008, 02:39 AM
I do not own an iPhone/iPod touch, so I am recalling this from memory, but I thought developers could install their applications onto their iPhone without going through the App Store.

Only after provisioning their devices and digitally signing each app, which still requires going though Apple's developer site for several certificates (which seem to have expiration dates).

.

NathanA
Oct 10, 2008, 08:08 PM
Is there anybody out there who has gotten/seen this new agreement? I thougtt it was supposed to be a week out from the posting of this announcement, but it's now been 10 days and I just went to try to sign up to be a developer so that I could apply for the "tech tour" thing, and it's asking me to agree to legalese dated from last March.

I've resolved not to sign up as a developer until Apple actually delivered the new terms as I refuse to agree to the current ones. Anybody know how close they actually are to officially changing it?

-- Nathan