Expectations for G5 Gen. 2 ?

[lem0nayde]

So, what improvements and speedbumps are we generally expecting for the next generation of G5 desktops?

I'd like for them to fix the harddrive heating issue, possible add more room for additional drives.

Also, should they switch to that other flavor of PCI? What is it called? PCI express?

And, we can always hope that they've been secretly working with 3DLabs or someone to offer a real graphics card. Though that would boost the price significantly.

I just wish we had more info on when they are coming out...I would love to sell my Dual 2gig on ebay - and use the money to by a next-gen machine.

[Dont Hurt Me]

I saw your hard drive heating issue. have you seen xlr8yourmac article on that?

[lem0nayde]

No...which article is that - I'd be interested in reading it. I'm so worried about damage being caused to the two 250GB harddrives in there. That is a lot of information to have damaged (of course, I try to back up regularly.)

I also found the drives really difficult to remove.

Joe

[numediaman]

I'll add my two cents -- because I really care about this.

1) more speed -- no expectations, just a bump. (the mid-range at 2.2 would be great, but I'll settle for 2.0) Bus speed improvement would be great, as well -- but not necessary.
2) new graphics cards to replace the 9600. All the black screen of death posts have me scared. Sounds like this card and cold weather spell disaster. It sounds like the NVDIA card is OK since I don't game.
3) a fix to iDVD4 so that it will work properly on the G5.
4) more RAM. You need 1 gig minimum, put it in the base model. I'll buy the rest separately.
5) most importantly, second generation performance. I want a reliable machine. I'm not a beta-guy. Give me a machine with most of the kinks worked out. The big jumps and experiments should be done on first generation machines.

I've already bought an external CD burner, a second hard drive, a new printer and a new scanner for this "new G5" -- all I need now is the "new G5".

[macmunch]

I would like to see:

1. Speed bump (to 2,4)
2. 2nd Drive Bay if possible
3. No revision A Mac --> I need a proven machine
4. 3 equivalent Boards not 2 different models
5. More basic RAM (for that price)
6. and one more HD bay (Room is there)

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by lem0nayde
So, what improvements and speedbumps are we generally expecting for the next generation of G5 desktops?

I'd like for them to fix the harddrive heating issue, possible add more room for additional drives.

Also, should they switch to that other flavor of PCI? What is it called? PCI express?

And, we can always hope that they've been secretly working with 3DLabs or someone to offer a real graphics card. Though that would boost the price significantly.

I just wish we had more info on when they are coming out...I would love to sell my Dual 2gig on ebay - and use the money to by a next-gen machine.

I think since they are receiving lower power G5s that in theory should be producing less heat at even half again the MHz as the current chips they should do a slight case redesign.

They should shrink the cpu area down and give enough room for a second optical bay and therefore additional hard drives. While they're at it do what they can to get an additional PCI slot in there for all the audio guys.

As for moving to PCI express. They already have it. That's what PCI-X is on the Dual/1.8 and 2GHz models.

[macmunch]

PCI Express is not the Same as PCI-X

I think we´ll see it in the next revision, because at the moment there are no PCI express cards ...

[pgwalsh]

I agree with what everyone else said. However, I'd just like to seem them updated.. I feel like I've been waiting a long time... I'm getting tired of it and I"m not going to buy a first generation. It always seems to be a wait with Apple..

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by macmunch
PCI Express is not the Same as PCI-X

I think we´ll see it in the next revision, because at the moment there are no PCI express cards ...

Oops, you are correct. I must have been confused with something else.

In any case yes it looks like PCI Express is the logical next step. The problem is that it's not a set standard yet and is still evolving. As for cards being available for it the good thing is it is suppose to be 100% backwards compatible.

[Laslo Panaflex]

Just thought that I would add that I use a dual 2gig G5 at work all day, and also have one at home. They have both been top notch and never had any problems with them. Just thought I needed to say that becuase I see so many people saying they are waiting for a more reliable machine. . . when meanwhile I have been working on my g5's for months saving hours upon hours of time on rendering and encoding. I just don't buy that first gen products are buggy arguement, but then again, I could be the exception.

[pgwalsh]

Originally posted by Laslo Panaflex
Just thought that I would add that I use a dual 2gig G5 at work all day, and also have one at home. They have both been top notch and never had any problems with them. Just thought I needed to say that becuase I see so many people saying they are waiting for a more reliable machine. . . when meanwhile I have been working on my g5's for months saving hours upon hours of time on rendering and encoding. I just don't buy that first gen products are buggy arguement, but then again, I could be the exception. Fair enough.. There's been reports of the heat issues with the hard drives and reports of the power supply chirping and video card issues. Additionally many people realize that kinks are workedout in second revisions. So there could be added speed improvements etc.

On another note. It's been a while since the last update and I wouldn't want to buy one now if it's going to be updated in the next couple of months. So I'll wait and wait and wait and maybe it'll never happen and maybe I'll never buy one or maybe I'll buy something else.. who knows.

[Laslo Panaflex]

I were in the situation I would wait as well, but I would probably look into getting the current line at a huge discount once the rev. b comes out. I mean you can get a daul 2gig g5 refurb right now for 2,400 it will probably drop down to 1,900 when the new g5s come out. That would be an awsome deal.

[pgwalsh]

Originally posted by Laslo Panaflex
I were in the situation I would wait as well, but I would probably look into getting the current line at a huge discount once the rev. b comes out. I mean you can get a daul 2gig g5 refurb right now for 2,400 it will probably drop down to 1,900 when the new g5s come out. That would be an awsome deal. That would be a bargain..

[Dont Hurt Me]

Originally posted by lem0nayde
No...which article is that - I'd be interested in reading it. I'm so worried about damage being caused to the two 250GB harddrives in there. That is a lot of information to have damaged (of course, I try to back up regularly.)

I also found the drives really difficult to remove.

Joe here it ishttp://www.xlr8yourmac.com/g5/g5_drive_heat_tips.html#storytop a excellent article about how the fan is cooling the sensor before the sensor can read correct harddrive temp.

[bannedagain]

Originally posted by lem0nayde
So, what improvements and speedbumps are we generally expecting for the next generation of G5 desktops?

I'd like for them to fix the harddrive heating issue, possible add more room for additional drives.

Also, should they switch to that other flavor of PCI? What is it called? PCI express?

And, we can always hope that they've been secretly working with 3DLabs or someone to offer a real graphics card. Though that would boost the price significantly.

I just wish we had more info on when they are coming out...I would love to sell my Dual 2gig on ebay - and use the money to by a next-gen machine.

More 5'1/2" drive bays would be good,
PCI Express is to replace the AGP Bus, not PCI-X (read my post on the BTX motherboard standard under my old user Manitoubalck)
The R9800 is a fantastic graphics card, just since mac's don't support DirectX, game ports run poorly.
Why did you buy a DELL?

[bannedagain]

Originally posted by MacBandit
As for moving to PCI express. They already have it. That's what PCI-X is on the Dual/1.8 and 2GHz models.

I said to rower that I wouldn't post any more "You diserve a Slap" reply's So I wont.

PCI Express is to Replace AGP 8x
PCI-X, is just an extended PCI slot with a 133MHz Bus, Even though 95% of all PCI cards still run in the Standard PCI 1.1 (i think) 33MHz bus.

[lem0nayde]

Hey "Dont Hurt Me" thanks for the link. I've just gotten done moving the fan sensor behind my 2 internal drives. It'll be interesting to see if the temperature drops over time. It appears to be doing so already.

Thanks a lot!!!

joe

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by bannedagain
I said to rower that I wouldn't post any more "You diserve a Slap" reply's So I wont.

PCI Express is to Replace AGP 8x
PCI-X, is just an extended PCI slot with a 133MHz Bus, Even though 95% of all PCI cards still run in the Standard PCI 1.1 (i think) 33MHz bus.


I may deserve a slap and I don't mind.
If you read the thread I have already been corrected on PCI-X and PCI-Express and I responded in kind.

In any case if I'm being stupid I want to be told so. How else will I know that I'm being stupid and need to fix my information.

What I read today said that PCI-Express is fully backward compatible with PCI thought the complete feature set is not set in stone yet. Also information on PCI Express talked as if it would eventually be able to replace all other PCI and AGP type slots.

This is where I got my information.

http://www.pcisig.com/news_room/faqs/faq_express/

[Sun Baked]

Speed bump, 2.6 to 3.0 GHz -- with a 3x bus multiplier.

Plus the normal Rev. B repairs to the machine to solve the Rev. A problems.

Unless Apple did get the UniNorth 3.x shrunk down this time around -- then I'd expect them to keep a 2x multiplier.

Probably still a little early for Apple to do too many changes to the Memory controller, hasn't really gone their typical period of time -- and the DDR2 memory still might not have hit the availability Apple needs.

---

While the CPU may have made a leap in speed, the sticking point is still the UniNorth 3.x -- Apple usually keeps a new controller around a couple years, using the PCI bus to keep it up to date.

Intrepid showed up with the PB12/17, and the UniNorth 3.x (aka U3) & KeyLargo 2 (K2) showed up in the PowerMac G5 while the KeyLargo Southbridge showed in 1999 (and is still being used in the PowerMac G4/eMac).

[aswitcher]

I agree with other posters

Speed hike of course - keep an entry level machine single, or price as a single...until G5s make it to iMac a cheaper machine is in order

Base Gig at same Price - two 512s

Improved graphics card

Bundle bluetooth with all machines at minimal cost addition

Jason

[x86isslow]

i expect that a 2nd gen g5 will make its pretty way into that 20" imac i've had my eye on..:D

hopefully they can stick a 9600 in it, once the pm's get the 9800s.e. or whatever its called.

[ffakr]

Originally posted by MacBandit
What I read today said that PCI-Express is fully backward compatible with PCI thought the complete feature set is not set in stone yet. Also information on PCI Express talked as if it would eventually be able to replace all other PCI and AGP type slots.

This is where I got my information.

http://www.pcisig.com/news_room/faqs/faq_express/
PCI-Express is backward compatable as is PCI-X.
PCI-Express is more revolutionary while PCI-X is more evolutionary.. PCI-Express (as I understand it) is comprised of multiple HyperTransport like channels. These channels can be used in parallel to provide increased bandwidth to one device, so a machine may have 32 PCI-Express channels of which 16 may be used by the video card while 4 may be used for an audio card.
.... at least that's how I understand it. I don't know how PCI-Express can still handle old PCI cards since it seems way different than current PCI standards.

[Nik_Doof]

Originally posted by ffakr
.... at least that's how I understand it. I don't know how PCI-Express can still handle old PCI cards since it seems way different than current PCI standards.

IIRC theres only certain slots that are going to be PCI compatible, as theres 3 types of PCI Express port, Compact (like a AMR port size), Standard (PC without the littke back cutout part) and PCI.

Cant remember where i read up on it, was summat like Toms Hardware or somewhere

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Nik_Doof
IIRC theres only certain slots that are going to be PCI compatible, as theres 3 types of PCI Express port, Compact (like a AMR port size), Standard (PC without the littke back cutout part) and PCI.

Cant remember where i read up on it, was summat like Toms Hardware or somewhere

I provided this link earlier but if you want to know anything about PCI-Express follow the link and read on. The link is to the company that has the patent and heads the PCI-Express standard development.

http://www.pcisig.com/news_room/faqs/faq_express/

[wdlove]

I would like to see a speed bump up to as close to 3.0 as possible. Added memory, but still a price decrease. Fix needed problems that have occurred with Rev. A. A machine that will hopefully have my name on it in the future.

[Stojamow]

I am looking for a machine with nuclear reactor combined with ice cream factory and time machine.

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by wdlove
I would like to see a speed bump up to as close to 3.0 as possible. Added memory, but still a price decrease. Fix needed problems that have occurred with Rev. A. A machine that will hopefully have my name on it in the future. Speed bumps, usual HD/optical/memory changes, and Rev B fixes will probably be it.

Doubtful there will be too big an improvement in additional stuff, PCI Express is still working through the system (as is PCI-X 2.0) -- unless somebody has seen a AMD 8xxx PCI Express Hypertransport Tunnel announcement.

An actual motherboard level integrated USB bluetooth device... maybe. Might not be cheap enough yet.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Originally posted by lem0nayde
Hey "Dont Hurt Me" thanks for the link. I've just gotten done moving the fan sensor behind my 2 internal drives. It'll be interesting to see if the temperature drops over time. It appears to be doing so already.

Thanks a lot!!!

joe your welcome. i hope a lot of other G5 owners are aware of this.

[ffakr]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
your welcome. i hope a lot of other G5 owners are aware of this.

I read the whole report on xlr8yourmac and I have to say that this seems like a major design flaw with the 250GB hard drive and not something that Apple is directly responsible.
I have to say that the positioning of the sensor may not have been the best choice here. Even if Apple doesn't put the sensor right next to the drives, at least do enough QA to make sure the thresholds are accurate.
On the other hand, the G5 Drive bay has more air ventilation than nearly every PC desktop box I've ever worked on. In most PC cases, the drives are placed up front with no ventilation in front of them.. and when you put two drives in, they often are about a millimeter away from each other. (this is a generalization of course, there are some PC cases with drives slung low in back of the front air intake, but I've only seen this on high end PC cases.. not the bulk of them)
Even with a slow moving fan, the G5 case move much more air over the drive than you'd see in a *typical* PC.

Granted.. if the assertions are true, it is a failure on Apple's part to not identify this issue before the machines shipped.
It also means that the drives were NOT designed to run in 90% of typical PC installations. That tells me that a) the drives are inherently defective since they should run fine in the majority of PC cases or b) this isn't the issue that it's being made out to be.

BTW, our dual G5 (rev a of course) is pretty much flawless. It does chirp, but it isn't noticable in a typical office and it can be disabled with a command line argument. We've seen ZERO issues with it, aside from a tendency to crash when the clear plastic air shroud was removed and replaced while running (something Apple said to NOT do).. but this was fixed with the firmware update.
We're very happy with rev A.

[Rower_CPU]

ffakr-
When you say "chirp" you're referring to the audio noise issue some people complained about right?

Can you post the command line argument and/or a link to where you got it from? Thanks.

[Dont Hurt Me]

ffakr in reference to the drives there is nothing wrong with them the problem is the sensor is to far away to read the temp thereby the sensor never tells that fan to speed up. so as that drive is hitting what 120 degrees that sensor never see's it because slow air is blown across the sensor. I wouldnt want my harddrive that hot. xlr8your mac said they notified apple but no response. by moving the sensor they got the temp to 105. engineers can screw up just as the next guy.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
ffakr-
When you say "chirp" you're referring to the audio noise issue some people complained about right?

Can you post the command line argument and/or a link to where you got it from? Thanks.

Here's some info on the chirping issue.

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/G5/G5_noise_tips.html

It doesn't come out of the speaker.

[Rower_CPU]

Thanks, MacBandit. Hopefully those folks frothing at the mouth about these noises came across this info.

[Stojamow]

Seriously, I think iMacs & Powerbooks will see get a G5 heart. I already posted about this in "I have seen the light" thread as I did not remember this thread.

[cubist]

Originally posted by ffakr
... In most PC cases, the drives are placed up front with no ventilation in front of them.. and when you put two drives in, they often are about a millimeter away from each other. ...


In the PC world, back in the early 1990s, hard drives seemed to last for years. These days, they only seem to last a year or two. They are simply baking in most of the PCs sold these days.

I'm so glad I switched. PCs are so sloppily built, it's hard to use the word 'designed' with respect to them.

[ffakr]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
ffakr in reference to the drives there is nothing wrong with them the problem is the sensor is to far away to read the temp thereby the sensor never tells that fan to speed up. so as that drive is hitting what 120 degrees that sensor never see's it because slow air is blown across the sensor. I wouldnt want my harddrive that hot. xlr8your mac said they notified apple but no response. by moving the sensor they got the temp to 105. engineers can screw up just as the next guy.

I said, in my previous post, that Apple should have done more Quality Assurance to make sure the sensor was in the appropriate position, and that it was calibrated properly to keep the drives within their operating range. Apple does screw up on occasion.

The crux of my point, however, was that the G5 case has much better drive air flow even with the fans barely spinning than 90% of PC cases.
From that perspective, I have to imagine that the REAL problem here is that the drive simply runs too hot and that it can't handle that heat. If its failing in G5s, it has to be failing in a typical PC case (the majority of which have zero active cooling for the drive bays). Should Apple have noticed this? probably.. I'd expect them to considering the obvious care given to the design of the G5 tower. Is this ultimately a problem with the Drive? IMHO, yes it is.

In our dual G5, we have the 160GB drive. The drive does get toasty though there is a constant stream of warm air flowing out of that area of the case (from the ventilation). With that Drive, we've had no stability issues, even under considerable load (compiling software tends to create a lot of disk i/o).

Now.. on a slightly different topic.. back to the sensor placement.
The machines with the single drive option ship with the drive in the upper bay (ours did at least). The top of the case is maybe a quarter of an inch above top drive so there isn't a heck of a lot of room between the case shell and the drive for the sensor. On our machine, the case skin above the drive is actually warm to the touch. IMHO, this isn't so much an issue of the sensor being mis-placed as it is an issue of the thresholds requiring adjustment. Our drive seems to be transferring heat to the area of the sensor quite nicely.

[ffakr]

Originally posted by cubist
In the PC world, back in the early 1990s, hard drives seemed to last for years. These days, they only seem to last a year or two. They are simply baking in most of the PCs sold these days.

I'm so glad I switched. PCs are so sloppily built, it's hard to use the word 'designed' with respect to them.

There have always been good designs and bad designs, good runs and bad runs. I've had plenty of drives over the years that would die in a month.. and I've seen plenty that are 10 years old and still running.
Seagate had issues about 6-7 years back, we bought Fujitsu and Samsung drives (half a dozen each) that all failed in under 3 months.. that was around 4 years ago...
The IBM deskstars (usually very nice drives) had major issues a year or so ago.

I think that we probably do see more failures now.. the manufacturing process has probably gotten much better, but we are seriously pushing the data densities while demanding high rpm performance. This has always been the case though.. some runs of a drive are bulletproof and some suck.

I don't think it's surprising that the 250GB drives are having issues, not the 160GB drives.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by ffakr
There have always been good designs and bad designs, good runs and bad runs. I've had plenty of drives over the years that would die in a month.. and I've seen plenty that are 10 years old and still running.
Seagate had issues about 6-7 years back, we bought Fujitsu and Samsung drives (half a dozen each) that all failed in under 3 months.. that was around 4 years ago...
The IBM deskstars (usually very nice drives) had major issues a year or so ago.

I think that we probably do see more failures now.. the manufacturing process has probably gotten much better, but we are seriously pushing the data densities while demanding high rpm performance. This has always been the case though.. some runs of a drive are bulletproof and some suck.

I don't think it's surprising that the 250GB drives are having issues, not the 160GB drives.

Yeah and the thing with PCs is most people buy cheap ones so of course they will have problems. I would make a bet that if you bought a PC like a Falcon or AlienWare that cost as much as a Mac that they would last.

Funny thing is now Seagate is one of the most dependable and Samsung makes the most durable longest lasting drive on the planet. Granted it's a 5400rpm drive but still. I know this because anyone that knows anything knows that when replacing a Tivo drive you don't put a 7200rpm drive in unless you want it to cook. So you have to do a lot of research and what you find out is that Samsung builds the best 5400rpm drive for continuous use bar none.