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View Full Version : RED 25 MP DSLR with ultra high def video




potato1
Nov 7, 2008, 03:40 AM
Jim Jannard, founder of Oakely sunglasses runs a small company called RED that is famous for designing ultra high definition video cameras. Seem there about to release a DSLR that combines high res still with video (3k instead of the normal HD 1k). This is a teaser photo thats just been released of it apparently, will be interesting to see what it turns out like:

http://www.timaustinimages.com/p1072951496/h9423113#h9423113

The camera is meant to be announced the start of next year and will possibly accept third party lenses (nikon, canon etc). See more info at:

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2008/09/red_confirms_dslr_says_its_bigger_revolution_than_red_one-2.html

I thought it was something a bit different from the mainstream brands;)



Pikemann Urge
Nov 7, 2008, 03:44 AM
Thank God. Though I love Nikons, and I know there are at least 4 or 5 good brands selling digital cameras, I'm sick of the two-horse race mentality (e.g. "what should I buy Canon or Nikon?"). Not to mention being sick of the one and only paradigm that seems to exist in the DSLR market. The more the better!

potato1
Nov 7, 2008, 04:13 AM
Thank God. Though I love Nikons, and I know there are at least 4 or 5 good brands selling digital cameras, I'm sick of the two-horse race mentality (e.g. "what should I buy Canon or Nikon?"). Not to mention being sick of the one and only paradigm that seems to exist in the DSLR market. The more the better!

HI Pikemann, althoiugh I use Canon myself, I defintely agree that it'll be good to see a few more offerings from companys which think outside the box.

netdog
Nov 7, 2008, 04:35 AM
If you can do things like pull focus during a take, this may be quite an enabling tool.

wheelhot
Nov 7, 2008, 05:09 AM
Hmm, so does it use Canon or Nikon? I do hope its both! ;)

Grimace
Nov 7, 2008, 08:23 AM
It is Scarlet -- the new teaser pics show that, and the announcement is in mid November, not the first of the year.

If it takes Canon/Nikon lenses, this will send shockwaves through the market.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_art1.jpg
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/5_1225782645.jpg
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_ui5.jpg

wheelhot
Nov 7, 2008, 09:21 AM
Haha, yeah but I wonder how expensive will it be?

anubis
Nov 7, 2008, 09:24 AM
Thank God. Though I love Nikons, and I know there are at least 4 or 5 good brands selling digital cameras, I'm sick of the two-horse race mentality (e.g. "what should I buy Canon or Nikon?"). Not to mention being sick of the one and only paradigm that seems to exist in the DSLR market. The more the better!

Hate to burst your bubble, but it's still going to be a 2-horse race mentality after the introduction of this camera on account of the fact that the price of this camera will put it out of range for all but 0.1% of photographers. Its impact in the mainstream will hardly be felt.

Grimace
Nov 7, 2008, 10:01 AM
I'm not disagreeing on the price point being out of reach for most, but it is supposed to be in the $3000 range. That puts it below Canon/Nikon's flagship offerings and neck and neck with the prosumer lines.

mattw126
Nov 7, 2008, 10:21 AM
the fact that the price of this camera will put it out of range for all but 0.1% of photographers.

Like Grimace said it's supposed to be around 3 g's, for a a professional wedding photography/videography studio that's very reasonable. The Red One is running $17,500, which is actually incredible for what you're getting. We'll be looking at the Scarlet closely, especially considering we have the full range of focal lengths of both Nikon & Canon. It would be nice if it can autofocus, but it's not necessary.

I really like the fact that someone high up in the business (Jim) responds directly to people's questions and concerns on their web site's forum (http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?p=21391#post21391).

I'm looking forward to the 13th when we'll get more info. :D

ChrisA
Nov 7, 2008, 12:56 PM
I'm not disagreeing on the price point being out of reach for most, but it is supposed to be in the $3000 range. That puts it below Canon/Nikon's flagship offerings and neck and neck with the prosumer lines.

That's actually cheap. Maybe even to cheap for many uses. If you look at a paraprofessional's gross income to capital ratio many of them really should be using Mamiya or Hasselblad equipment and many are. The higher end equipment gives a technical advantage over those using Nikon/Canon gear

But the real reason RED will not "shake up the market" is that they simply do not build very many cameras. If you want to buy a camera you have the reserve a "production slot" and then wait months while they work off their waiting list. In order to "shake up the market" RED will need to ramp up production and get their gear into Best Buy and Amazon.com

I have actually been involved in a camera design. (I did some software ran the guts of the camera, moved charge off the CCD, sampled the pixels and recorded data.) I'll tell you, cameras are not "rocket science" they are simple. But where it gets real, real hard real fast is designing a factory that can turn out many cameras per day. The factory automation is 10,000 times more complex then a camera. I don't think Red has the factory part down yet.

ajpl
Nov 7, 2008, 04:25 PM
That's actually cheap. Maybe even to cheap for many uses. If you look at a paraprofessional's gross income to capital ratio many of them really should be using Mamiya or Hasselblad equipment and many are. The higher end equipment gives a technical advantage over those using Nikon/Canon gear What sort of daft reasoning is that? :confused: Photographers buy equipment that does the best job for their needs. An event photographer that covers motorsport may make more money than a product photographer, but this does not mean the sports photographer has to use a Hasselblad and the food photographer a Canon. More megapixels are not a technological advantage compared to fast focussing, long lens with fast apertures and 6 fps when doing photojournalism or sports. Papparazzi can also make silly money, do you think they should all buy a 60mp PhaseOne back?

But the real reason RED will not "shake up the market" is that they simply do not build very many cameras. If you want to buy a camera you have the reserve a "production slot" and then wait months while they work off their waiting list. In order to "shake up the market" RED will need to ramp up production and get their gear into Best Buy and Amazon.com Simply by introducing a better product they will shake up the market as has already happened with their video kit. Just because they may not produce millions in their first year is actually not that important. This also may be why Canon and Nikon have suddenly added video to their cameras as they are no doubt well aware of RED's intentions and there's been no technical reason before as to why it hadn't happened earlier.

I have actually been involved in a camera design. (I did some software ran the guts of the camera, moved charge off the CCD, sampled the pixels and recorded data.) I'll tell you, cameras are not "rocket science" they are simple. But where it gets real, real hard real fast is designing a factory that can turn out many cameras per day. The factory automation is 10,000 times more complex then a camera. I don't think Red has the factory part down yet.But RED is very different from most start ups as the owner is already stupidly rich from another manufacturing business. So this will be less of a hurdle as RED has very deep pockets and is far more interested in producing good products than simply making money, plus if they design the product well it may be simpler than conventional products for RED to produce.

theBB
Nov 7, 2008, 04:50 PM
But the real reason RED will not "shake up the market" is that they simply do not build very many cameras. If you want to buy a camera you have the reserve a "production slot" and then wait months while they work off their waiting list. In order to "shake up the market" RED will need to ramp up production and get their gear into Best Buy and Amazon.com

From RED's website:
There will be no reservation system for Scarlet; the day it is introduced is the day you can buy yours. Planned introduction is early 2009.

wheelhot
Nov 7, 2008, 08:28 PM
So I wonder which manufacturer is going to build their camera? and how much will it cost? So far RED products is $$$$

DCBass
Nov 7, 2008, 10:43 PM
Simply by introducing a better product they will shake up the market as has already happened with their video kit. Just because they may not produce millions in their first year is actually not that important. This also may be why Canon and Nikon have suddenly added video to their cameras as they are no doubt well aware of RED's intentions and there's been no technical reason before as to why it hadn't happened earlier.


I can't see myself ever spending $1000+ on a camera as a hobbyist. I wonder if RED is considering going into this territory in the next couple years. The point made about manufacturing is a good one.

Even so, as you say, this will definitely push Canon and Nikon. What has two thumbs and loves competition? "This Guy".

The next 2 years are going to be veerryy veerryy interesting for all of us.

Cheers,

DCBass

compuwar
Nov 7, 2008, 11:11 PM
I can't see myself ever spending $1000+ on a camera as a hobbyist. I wonder if RED is considering going into this territory in the next couple years.

The margins suck at that price point compared to the prosumer and professional price points. If you want to compete at the low end, you also need a big dealer/distribution network. I wouldn't hold my breath, especially if they're going to be focusing on the pro/prosumer market to start with.

cube
Nov 8, 2008, 05:09 AM
So I wonder which manufacturer is going to build their camera? and how much will it cost? So far RED products is $$$$

RED products are low $$$$$ instead of $$$$$$.

wheelhot
Nov 8, 2008, 06:08 AM
RED products are low $$$$$ instead of $$$$$$.

Haha, still a lot of $$$$$ ;)

Westside guy
Nov 8, 2008, 01:47 PM
Just how much impact has RED actually had on the consumer video market? I mean that as an honest question.

Other than with a certain group of fanboys (not really meant perjoratively this time), I haven't noticed much about it. Usually if a product is "disruptive", those of us that are a little ways outside of the market are at least aware that it's happening - but the only place I ever hear about RED is camera forums, and it's at about the same volume as other stuff I consider interesting but somewhat minor news (e.g. the announcement of the micro 4/3 camera format).

Grimace
Nov 8, 2008, 02:03 PM
Just how much impact has RED actually had on the consumer video market? I mean that as an honest question.

Other than with a certain group of fanboys (not really meant perjoratively this time), I haven't noticed much about it. Usually if a product is "disruptive", those of us that are a little ways outside of the market are at least aware that it's happening - but the only place I ever hear about RED is camera forums, and it's at about the same volume as other stuff I consider interesting but somewhat minor news (e.g. the announcement of the micro 4/3 camera format).

Disruptive, not in sales, but in competition for features/R&D against Canon/Nikon. If RED can put better than 1080p video in a still camera, Nikon and Canon will need to respond in some way. It is no longer a two company race.

cube
Nov 8, 2008, 02:12 PM
Just how much impact has RED actually had on the consumer video market? I mean that as an honest question.

Other than with a certain group of fanboys (not really meant perjoratively this time), I haven't noticed much about it. Usually if a product is "disruptive", those of us that are a little ways outside of the market are at least aware that it's happening - but the only place I ever hear about RED is camera forums, and it's at about the same volume as other stuff I consider interesting but somewhat minor news (e.g. the announcement of the micro 4/3 camera format).

RED ONE is not a consumer video camera. It is a disruptive PRO cinema camera.

Westside guy
Nov 8, 2008, 02:24 PM
Disruptive, not in sales, but in competition for features/R&D against Canon/Nikon. If RED can put better than 1080p video in a still camera, Nikon and Canon will need to respond in some way. It is no longer a two company race.

I guess I don't buy this argument. If it's not disruptive in sales, neither Nikon nor Canon will feel obligated to respond - why would they?

Westside guy
Nov 8, 2008, 02:28 PM
RED ONE is not a consumer video camera. It is a disruptive PRO cinema camera.

Okay, gotcha. But then I don't think it's a given they'll have any significant impact in the consumer dSLR market.

BTW I'm not arguing this is anything but a good thing. More competition is better, and leads to better products for all of us.

calebmedia
Nov 8, 2008, 02:29 PM
This is the updated scarlet right? I was ready to get one when it came out then RED said they were going to re-think some things and get back to us.

TheFuzz
Nov 8, 2008, 02:40 PM
this is different from scarlet. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RED_Digital_Camera_Company#Scarlet) scarlet's a small form-factor professional video camcorder.

GRuizMD
Nov 10, 2008, 08:58 PM
this is different from scarlet. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RED_Digital_Camera_Company#Scarlet) scarlet's a small form-factor professional video camcorder.

Posted in some other thread...

http://www.snappertalk.com/images/red-scarlet-dslr.jpg

rt_brained
Nov 11, 2008, 01:04 AM
this is different from scarlet. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RED_Digital_Camera_Company#Scarlet) scarlet's a small form-factor professional video camcorder.

Actually, the previous post was correct. The Red Scarlet's design has been scrapped and they are apparently going to approach it from a different angle. Jim Jannard is perhaps a bigger fan of photography than he ever was of film or video. That said, with the recent introduction of prosumer cameras like the new Canon 5d MkII shooting 21MP images as well as 1080p video, it looks as if Jannard saw the writing on the wall.

Red Scarlet will reportedly be repackaged as a digital SLR with 3k video capability. It won't be cheap, but it will shake up the market.

Gotta love the fact that Jannard hasn't given up on the Blade Runner influence in his products' designs. Oakley's headquarters (http://oakley.com/about) was , and still is, a thing of beauty.

FX120
Nov 11, 2008, 01:33 AM
Hmm....

I wonder if it will actually be functional out of the box, and won't rely on months upon months of firmware updates to actually make all of the promised features usable.

Also I would imagine that many of the people who would be in a position to buy a new camera body by RED, would have already invested considerable dollars into either the canon or nikon system. Even if the body is amazing, it's probably going to take a lot to convince people to abandon their already purchased glass, flashes, ect.

iMeanIt
Nov 11, 2008, 06:06 AM
this is different from scarlet. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RED_Digital_Camera_Company#Scarlet) scarlet's a small form-factor professional video camcorder.

That has always been my understanding, and I've been watching Red for over a year. The confusion about it being a DSLR might be because there is speculation that (with an adaptor) it could use Nikon and/or Canon DSLR lenses for extra versatility. Red recently withdrew the design it previewed at the NAB (National Association of Broadcasters) Convention last April. Their comment was that "the industry has changed, and we have learned" since the original design was introduced. The estimated cost at that time was around $3000USD. Many expect (hope) their new design will have similar pricing.

Like the Red One, Scarlet is expected to record video onto Compact Flash cards - a 16GB card would hold about 4 minutes of exterme quality HD video.

Grimace
Nov 11, 2008, 07:50 AM
Hmm....

I wonder if it will actually be functional out of the box, and won't rely on months upon months of firmware updates to actually make all of the promised features usable.

Also I would imagine that many of the people who would be in a position to buy a new camera body by RED, would have already invested considerable dollars into either the canon or nikon system. Even if the body is amazing, it's probably going to take a lot to convince people to abandon their already purchased glass, flashes, ect.

It is supposed to have adapters to use existing Canon and Nikon glass. I don't think RED is getting to deep into the lens business.

GRuizMD
Nov 11, 2008, 10:15 AM
Somebody took out my linked pics.... Oh well.

ajpl
Nov 11, 2008, 11:13 AM
I guess I don't buy this argument. If it's not disruptive in sales, neither Nikon nor Canon will feel obligated to respond - why would they?They have. Didn't you notice the video capabilities on D90 + 5DII. It's always been posible before and it's interesting, both companies suddenly enable this feature. Nothing has to be added,
You can enable lots of features on cameras by updating firmware, you can shoot RAW for example with an Canon Ixus [Elph in US I think] P+S by tweaking firmware.
If anyone is interested in tweaking Canons, Google 'chkd canon'.

ajpl
Nov 11, 2008, 11:19 AM
So I wonder which manufacturer is going to build their camera? and how much will it cost? So far RED products is $$$$DVD recorders are now about 20/$40 [if buying for a PC]. Yet I remember them being over a 1000/$2000 when they first appeared.
I can buy a computer for a tenth I paid for my first machine and it will be more powerful as well as much cheaper.
All new technology is expensive initially, so I don't understand why people moan about such stuff being expensive.

Mantat
Nov 12, 2008, 06:11 AM
Also I would imagine that many of the people who would be in a position to buy a new camera body by RED, would have already invested considerable dollars into either the canon or nikon system. Even if the body is amazing, it's probably going to take a lot to convince people to abandon their already purchased glass, flashes, ect.

it uses SLR glasses from Canon (not sure about Nikon but I this it can too). Most popular lenses are the 24-70 2.8 and 70-200 2.8IS. But I would love to use a tilt-shift on it!

wheelhot
Nov 12, 2008, 07:14 AM
All new technology is expensive initially, so I don't understand why people moan about such stuff being expensive.

Lol, you misunderstood me, I'm not moaning that its expensive, Im just saying that RED stuffs is always expensive just like how Apple is always expensive (not that I care about it).

Anyway owning RED means business :).

Also, I have another philosophy which is, if you can't own it, don't complain that the company should make it cheaper. I sometime will whine a little bit about it, but I won't go to the extend of blaming (and booing) the company for selling expensive products (as long as the quality is there). :cool: