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MacRumors
Feb 9, 2004, 11:39 PM
The worldwide launch of Apple's iTunes Music store remains a mystery.

Apple has previously announced/hinted at the upcoming availability of the iTunes Music Store in Japan (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/11/20031127210039.shtml) and Europe (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/09/20030916135743.shtml). Apple has also been clearly pursuing licensing agreements (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/10/20031020131949.shtml) in Canada as far back as October 2003.

While the most recent expectations (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/01/20040124172805.shtml) have placed a European launch for "the first half of 2004", a recent report seems to indicate that it may not meet this mark.

Apple is reportedly working on a European-wide deal to provide a consistent and uniform Music Store. However, regional licensing fees and distribution of those fees remain to an obstacle. As a result, word is that the launch-goal may fall as far back as August 2004... but this remains a moving target. In the meanwhile, other companies may have more luck launching regional versions of their online music stores.

jeffy.dee-lux
Feb 9, 2004, 11:44 PM
What are they talking about??
there aren't any "computers" here in canada.

adamberti
Feb 9, 2004, 11:47 PM
I wonder what the holdup in Canada is... Puretracks.com is already selling songs, as far back as october 2003 I think. Now my ISP has made a deal with them so that when you click on music through www.mytelus.com you buy music through puretracks. Just not sure how well they're doing. And Telus is a major ISP in Western Canada, Apple needs to hurry up.

pcharles
Feb 9, 2004, 11:55 PM
You'd think that record companies would like to sell as many tracks as they could with as little effort as possible.

Well, I am sure they do, just not through an American company!

Phazer80s
Feb 10, 2004, 12:07 AM
The iTMS is a great service. Then again, this is coming from someone who has only experienced it 30 seconds at a time. Waiting for the service to break here in Canada is is like watching water boil (with no promise the stove's even on!)

It seems the iTMS is destined to be a part of Apple's other U.S.-centric services, iChat and Sherlock. Come on, Apple. Let us have it when it's ready! What advantage does waiting for a world-wide simultaneous launch have when there are iPods to be sold? Of course, it could be argued that demand for iPods is already satisfactory. Goodness knows they're priced that way *sigh*

OK, I do complain a lot. But the impatience of those of us forbidden to use the iTMS is completely valid, especially considering Apple's consumer push on music. We feel left out.

Photorun
Feb 10, 2004, 12:14 AM
I'm waiting for all the Macrumor Europe members to come and chime in and somehow blame Apple for their own countries enept and usually arcane legal systems that are keeping them from getting iTunes.

Canada, however, I don't get what the hold up there is, I mean, isn't it just the US with a funkier zip code? (kidding! I love Canada!)

warcraftmaster
Feb 10, 2004, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by jeffy.dee-lux
What are they talking about??
there aren't any "computers" here in canada.


we got trees and fish.i dunno about computers:confused: . o wait am on one now and it a powerbook by apple:p here to think i want to spend 1000doller in itms and i want to sell macs here too. its is only 0.05% of what we use here.
with ilife i can get that up to 70 alone.:rolleyes:

edit: how aBBout we tell them ehhh and ask them:there aren't any "computers" here in canada? at http://www.apple.com/feedback/itunes.html

freddiecable
Feb 10, 2004, 12:34 AM
if so = a big bummer :(

waiting...

jholzner
Feb 10, 2004, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by Phazer80s
The iTMS is a great service. Then again, this is coming from someone who has only experienced it 30 seconds at a time. Waiting for the service to break here in Canada is is like watching water boil (with no promise the stove's even on!)

It seems the iTMS is destined to be a part of Apple's other U.S.-centric services, iChat and Sherlock. Come on, Apple. Let us have it when it's ready! What advantage does waiting for a world-wide simultaneous launch have when there are iPods to be sold? Of course, it could be argued that demand for iPods is already satisfactory. Goodness knows they're priced that way *sigh*

OK, I do complain a lot. But the impatience of those of us forbidden to use the iTMS is completely valid, especially considering Apple's consumer push on music. We feel left out.

iChat is a US only service? I thought it used AIM's protocol. What's the problem?

m2uk
Feb 10, 2004, 01:00 AM
I thought I read that U.S. sales accounted for anly about 50 or 60% max of Apple sales and that the non US markets where the fastest growing overall segments.

Of course, if the record companies are dragging their feet they deserve people to copy their music (although just because you cannot get something doesn't mean you should go and steal it IYSWIM).

Foocha
Feb 10, 2004, 01:38 AM
I doubt that Europe's "enept[sic] and usually arcane legal systems" are to blame for the delay. Europe is not one country, but many, each with their own systems - attempting to launch a one-size-fits-all service across all of these markets is extremely ambitious on Apple's part, and is inevitably far more complex that a US-only launch.

I suspect that Canada is suffering from the fact that the size of its market does not justify a standalone launch, so it will instead be handled as part of the global launch. In some senses, Canada has more in common with European markets - for example, the need for a French language version. As far as I know, iTMS US is only available in English, and whilst there's no legal obligation on Apple to provide a Spanish version for the US, there is a legal requirement to provide a French version for Canada (as I understand).

Of course, I realise that negotiations with record companies are the main delaying factor - but I suspect the desire for a one-size-fits-all internationalisation of iTMS is what's holding everyone back.

MacsRgr8
Feb 10, 2004, 01:39 AM
Originally posted by Photorun
I'm waiting for all the Macrumor Europe members to come and chime in and somehow blame Apple for their own countries enept and usually arcane legal systems that are keeping them from getting iTunes.



Not me. I hope no-one else either.
And why would you think so?

This does bother me: In the meanwhile, other companies may have more luck launching regional versions of their online music stores.

m2uk
Feb 10, 2004, 01:40 AM
Hmm. I guess that ITMS US does not have to open a french set of services if operated from the U.S. but if operated via Apple Canada it might (if such a law is in place).
I don't know the law but there is a similar issue in Finland. Swedish and Finnish are the two primary official languages (there is Same in the north) and official documents and services must be given in Swedish for the 4 to 5% who claim it as a mother tongue YET private companies can do what they want regarding do they support Swedish or not.

LethalWolfe
Feb 10, 2004, 01:41 AM
I don't see how anyone in their right mind is blaming Apple. Opening up a domestic store is easy. Opening up a multinational store/series of stores is not. Especially when you are dealing with things like music. There are lots of copyright, distribution rights, and royalty issues that have to be worked out. I've had a bit of exposure to this, but dealing w/TV not music, and it was absolutely the most convoluted thing I'd ever been exposed to and it was only inregards to who had the broadcast rights to the CART race in Rockingham England. One single event. And it was insane. I can only imagine how horrible is must be to try and iron things out on such a broad scale like Apple is trying to do. Sorting your clothes by brand and color in the dark wearing a blind fold using only your left foot would be an easier task than dealing w/opening up iTMS stores all over the world.


Lethal

JFreak
Feb 10, 2004, 01:41 AM
no wonder that non-US orders account for 50% - because apple takes profit from exchange rates! for example a 15" powerbook costs 50% more in finland when the price is converted into US dollars, compared to the US prices.

well, to be fair, there are also different tax systems involved.

Krizoitz
Feb 10, 2004, 01:44 AM
Originally posted by JFreak
no wonder that non-US orders account for 50% - because apple takes profit from exchange rates! for example a 15" powerbook costs 50% more in finland when the price is converted into US dollars, compared to the US prices.

well, to be fair, there are also different tax systems involved.

not to mention tariffs, shipping, localized language versions of software, local language support, etc

ph8te
Feb 10, 2004, 01:53 AM
Well, what have we here...

I can't speak for Canada, but certainly the European Market has its problems. It would be unfair to lay the blame on the Music Production Comapanies alone, where the true hindrance of the issue lies within politics. In a world where we strive to rid ourselves of the idiotic ideals of the past, where patriotism and the need to protect our people from the agressors of the north, east, west, south or whatever has become a total faux pas it is our politicians, our elders and the supressionistic attitude of those that govern us that cause delays such as Apple is experiencing.

Corporations like Apple are the modern day Robin Hood, with the enemy being those that wish to supress the freedom of the individual. Be it a company monopolising a segment of the market, or a government hindering progress in effort to protect our heritage...

I don't give a damn about my heritage... I want what is freely (well more like 99 cent per experience) available in the USA here in Europe, and no legislation put forth more than 50 to 100 years ago should stand in my way...

leenoble
Feb 10, 2004, 02:02 AM
I don't blame Apple for the delay in bringing the iTMS to Europe.
I'm in the UK where every company, not just record companies routinely rip us off. CDs cost about 50% more than just about anywhere else in the world. Levi jeans are banned from sale in supermarkets because Levi claim we wouldn't want to buy them in a place which doesn't fully reflect the brand and lifestyle of the jean company even if we could get them at half the price and people regularly take boat trips to the continent to buy cars because it works out cheaper to buy a left hand drive model, convert it, ship it, pay the import tax and re-register it for british use than it would to buy it in the UK spec to begin with.
This is all about the record companies wanting to maintain their huge profit margins on UK sales.
I don't blame Apple for that. I think they'll have a near impossible task to fix that when it's dogged us for decades. The reason why the record companies can get away with this is illustrated by my next point:
I would rather have *A* music store even if it was cheaper in France and the rest of europe, than no music store at all. So by all means the record companies can get away with charging us 99p per track which is about 50% more than the US price. I don't care. I just want to buy online the best way possible. Apple needs to see this and start rolling out individual stores for each country. Screw the multi-country deal it's taking too long.

ph8te
Feb 10, 2004, 02:16 AM
Europe being made up of individual countries is a very valid point, but why then do we europeans annually pour millions of Euros into our centralised European Cummunity in taxes. For the average person on the street the unified europe has brought absolutely zilch, nada, nichts.

Apple is a company that has always prided itself on its symbiosis bewtween individual softwares and its hardware, so it would be only natural to try and coordinate a global launch. Yes, America was first, but the market had to be tested somewhere...

As the the language issues, that is one thing the entire software industry should take note of... there a so many "skinnable" applicatons out there, so why not make language modules skinnable, some adobe products have it, Quark uses it on its Passport version, there is plenty of shareware with the ability to switch languages, so for a company like Apple to solved the language issue with iTMS's should be no problem.

teme
Feb 10, 2004, 02:20 AM
I think also that Apple should forget that multi-country deal. Few music stores are already available in some European countries, and Apple needs to do something quickly.

It's interesting to see how the things are handled when the European iTMS opens. For example, many artists release their albums in different countries at different time. Will each European country have the same selection of music or will each country have it's own selection? How about national artists, who are not known outside one country? Will their music be available?

But anyway, Apple should do something fast and forget that multi-country mess. Just release it in some countries first and then country by country after that.

iMan
Feb 10, 2004, 02:58 AM
Now I am getting really mad soon! I can't understand the music industry. I can't understand the lawmakers. Unfortunately I can't understand Apple neither.
Apple is loosing ground fast! There are already several music stores available in Europe (on country basis). Hey, we even have a fully functional bilangual one in Norway: http://www.musikkonline.no They sell only norwegian records though, but then they sell it to anyone in the world! Bad thing: Windows only! (worse: the WMA DRM thingie that does not even work on the pods). Which is what will happen a lot if Apple does not hurry. ITMS will face the destiny of being a Mac-only used store in Europe - and no market leader :(
And this is moving fast! If Apple can't strike a pan-european deal, go local - NOW! This is NOT difficult technically. Apple website/store is already published for several countries/languages. And heck, most of us people of small countries are more than used to face english content on the web - we will cope. We just want to buy our music from Apple - please let us!!

fluidfloyd
Feb 10, 2004, 03:04 AM
What I don't understand is why they are going for a European iTMS at all, rather than a UK iTMS, German iTMS etc., delivering one store at a time. Surely this would be much simpler and quicker to sort. We have separate Apple stores after all...not just one big European Apple Superstore...

I would have thought a UK iTMS would be the logical first step in Europe due to translation issues - but maybe the legal wrangling with the Beatles' Apple Corp(?) is holding this up?

Anyone able to point out why what I see as sensible isn't necessarily so??? :confused:

iMan
Feb 10, 2004, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by Krizoitz
not to mention tariffs, shipping, localized language versions of software, local language support, etc

Hmm... as far as I know the parts in the macs comes from all over the world, and I believe european macs are assembled in Ireland... I don't think then shipping, taxes and such are a large factor. But then I would not complain about prices here in Norway neither, we are some percent above the US, but we also have a 24% sales tax. And Apple is one of very few companies that deliveres everything in Norwegian: boxes, manuals, OS, software +++ Living in a small country of about 4 mill. people that is very impressive to me - and one amongst many things I love about Apple - the attention to detail.
Besides: good thing is that it appears that some hardware problems exprienced in US is gone when released in Norway - i.e. the iBook problem is not as prominent. Maybe Apple is putting some extra effort also given that here you are by law entitled to 3 years warranty for such products - which pretty much covers the lifetime anyway :)

iMan
Feb 10, 2004, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by fluidfloyd
What I don't understand is why they are going for a European iTMS at all, rather than a UK iTMS, German iTMS etc., delivering one store at a time. Surely this would be much simpler and quicker to sort. We have separate Apple stores after all...not just one big European Apple Superstore...


I find this very sensible. And as someone else pointed out - it gives also the possibility to promote national artists that would be strong sellers in smaller regions. Actually I would not expect a ITMS superstore to be anywere near the ideal solution... for anyone.

nitro
Feb 10, 2004, 03:26 AM
Ok I've had an Idea, I'm need someone to tell me if it'd work... right here in the UK we can browse the ITMS we just can buy without a valid US address and credit card... well isn't there some way an american company could set up a system where they apply for a card on our behalf and use their address, we pay them, they either give us the card details or buy gift certificates for us, we download the songs .. problem solved... ok I'm sure there's a barrier to this working I just can't see what it is.

iMan
Feb 10, 2004, 03:33 AM
hmmm... how about using the allowance function...? Would that work somehow?? Or is this depending on the actual hardware you are using...?

Foocha
Feb 10, 2004, 03:35 AM
I'm need someone to tell me if it'd work...

The whole point of iTMS is to buy music legally rather than using the freely available but illegal file sharing services.

In the event that you were a non-US resident, purchasing music from iTMS from outside of the US, it is unlikely that the music would be licensed anyway, so you're paying money for nothing.

mobility3
Feb 10, 2004, 03:36 AM
I've been roaming around Europe for some years. The musician union/copyright systems seem to run extremely deep. In Germany for instance I believe you have to pay a tax just to own a radio or television and you are not allowed to play a radio station in a restaurant or shop without paying authors rights duties. The same goes for all material broadcast on radio stations. There are 'controlers' who go around everywhere and enforce the regulations.

Now this is for one country. Now multiply that by 12 or however many member states there are (and growing), and you have a mess on your hands. When I heard Apple wanted a Europe wide service I couldn't imagine how it was possible.

Mind you I'm no expert. This is just what I've gathered from talking to people.

singletrack
Feb 10, 2004, 03:51 AM
If Apple comes out with a Europe wide store in 2004 I'd be frankly amazed.

Everybody else just isn't even bothering to try apart from OD2 and they are doing it via European ISPs, Microsoft, coca-cola, Virgin and doing it country by country, record label by record label. Far more sensible.

Apple's insistence on a big entrance is making it late for it's own party. It's like iPhoto and Sherlock all over again.

captain kirk
Feb 10, 2004, 04:02 AM
Originally posted by fluidfloyd
What I don't understand is why they are going for a European iTMS at all, rather than a UK iTMS, German iTMS etc., delivering one store at a time. Surely this would be much simpler and quicker to sort. We have separate Apple stores after all...not just one big European Apple Superstore...

I would have thought a UK iTMS would be the logical first step in Europe due to translation issues - but maybe the legal wrangling with the Beatles' Apple Corp(?) is holding this up?

Anyone able to point out why what I see as sensible isn't necessarily so??? :confused:

Sorry to point this out but we do actually have one big european apple superstore. All orders taken via the applestore online in europe are actually processed through Apples main european HQ in Paris.
I agree with a previous post however that it is probably the uk holding it up for the rest of europe. Us not being in the euro doesn't help matters and the record companies make considerably higher margins in the uk than the rest of europe.

johnnyjibbs
Feb 10, 2004, 04:33 AM
Originally posted by nitro
Ok I've had an Idea, I'm need someone to tell me if it'd work... right here in the UK we can browse the ITMS we just can buy without a valid US address and credit card... well isn't there some way an american company could set up a system where they apply for a card on our behalf and use their address, we pay them, they either give us the card details or buy gift certificates for us, we download the songs .. problem solved... ok I'm sure there's a barrier to this working I just can't see what it is.
You can quite easily beat the system but only if you know someone in the USA that you can trust with your money. Get them to set up a cheap no-fee internet credit card using their address and name and let them keep the card in a draw somewhere out of the way. The card is linked to your bank balance and then you have the details so that you can use it on iTMS, settling the bill online.

They need to be close-ish family however - you wouldn't want them spending your money on it...

-----
Regarding the rest of the thread, I don't blame Apple. This really sucks and it may be better if they go country by country, although that may not be so good for the smaller, less dominating European countries. However, certainly there is some backward attitude in Britain that means companies only think in a very short-sighted way and try to rip everyone off. It wouldn't surprise me if the songs on iTMS cost 99p (if they are lower, I'm betting on 79p, not 54p that USA exchange rate is). Even that is far better value than 3.99 for a single with one song and two crap ones. I doubt I'd buy albums on iTMS though.

iMan
Feb 10, 2004, 04:34 AM
Originally posted by captain kirk
Sorry to point this out but we do actually have one big european apple superstore. All orders taken via the applestore online in europe are actually processed through Apples main european HQ in Paris.


Well, this IS true. Like Apple is also actually one company - hence we have actually one worldwide Apple-store.
So european headquarter is in Paris (I thought actually the products shipped from Ireland..?), but you are still not able to shop from the french Apple store in Germany or to shop at all if there is no Apple store available for your country. You don't have to have an office in each country for the ITMS either, just a selective interface for each one.

As far as the currency problem and the earnings these are surely not only UK problems - these will anyway differ from a lot of countries. Remember that only 12 of 15 current members use Euro, 11 more EU countries are pending (which will not go Euro for a little while), and there are still countries outside of EU in Europe (as much as we hate it ;) ) Anyway - all different earnings and currencies are easily solved within the Apple store system. Could as easily be solved in ITMS. More I think of this, the more I believe Apple is being overly ambitious if they want to "unite" europe...

AlanAudio
Feb 10, 2004, 04:35 AM
By one of those strange coincidences, this is being talked about on the same day that the British press announce that UK sales of singles have dropped by one third in the last year.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,1144587,00.html

I have no doubt that Apple want the iTMS Europe to open immediately. The delays must be coming from the music industry and yet that same industry is failing to sell it's products.

One can only marvel at the spectacular stupidity of an industry which can lose sales at such a phenomenal rate and still put obstacles in the path of a proven solution with a huge pent-up demand.

iPod sales in the UK are incredible. In the last quarter, if you take out sales within the US, the UK bought as many iPods as the rest of the world put together. Sales would have been even higher if supply could have kept up with demand.

There can be little doubt that iTMS sales would also be massive in the UK.

J-Squire
Feb 10, 2004, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by Foocha
The whole point of iTMS is to buy music legally rather than using the freely available but illegal file sharing services.

In the event that you were a non-US resident, purchasing music from iTMS from outside of the US, it is unlikely that the music would be licensed anyway, so you're paying money for nothing.

I don't see this as the whole point to iTMS. I am not too fussed with the fact the the songs I download from iTMS are legal compared to those I download through filesharing (I am one of those people with poor moral groundings I guess). I just LOVE the convenience. It kicks filesharing because it's an enjoyable experience, you can easily find the song you want, you can preview the song, it's high quality, and you can buy whole albums.

I live in Australia but have a sister in the US who has bought me several iTMS gift certificates (probably US$200 in total) which I have redeemed and used here. I know this is not 'by the rule book', but it works for me, and I'm sure the artists don't care where I buy, as long as I buy.

DJY
Feb 10, 2004, 05:21 AM
Whilst I appreciate the Apple (AUST) market must be so small comared to the US and Euro markets...

we also were rumoured to get iTMS in the first quarter of 2004.
We actually have I think at least THREE other online music options now (all WMA though)?!?!??!?!

I don't know if it is useless Apple Australia... or whether we aren't anywhere up the priority order of Apple (US or worldwide)...

sigh I'm a Windows user - in love with my 3G 40GB iPOD... even have talked a few mates into getting them! I was contemplating almost next buying more Apple hardware...
but if iTMS doesn't get here soon I think they will miss the market. Others will buy portable solutions that they can play all the digital music they are downloading in WMA format.

Other option might be - that if HP & Apple deal recently includes HP's rumoured requirement to get their version playing WMA - then say good bye to Australian or global iTMS domination I think.
Lets hope not - especially as it isn't here yet!

m2uk
Feb 10, 2004, 06:20 AM
Just remembered the annoying thing about Applestore. I work for a UK company but am based in Finland. To get something ordered and sent to me here we have to use Applestore Finland.. and thus the UK company cannot claim the VAT back in its accounts, even though the UK company is buying it and asking it to come to me in Finland. No official reason for being awkward but the Apple way. Yet many stores in the UK will ship to Finland and bill the UK company without a problem !

singletrack
Feb 10, 2004, 06:36 AM
More competition in Europe, particularly the last bit from EMI.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/35433.html

FrankL
Feb 10, 2004, 06:37 AM
One of the factors behind the delay in the UK is the MCPS (who collect royalties on the sale of music). The MCPS are sticking to a frankly unsustainable position on the level of royalties they receive per sale, apparently way in excess of what they get from the sale of CDs or vinyl.

I know that a number of specialist download sites are refusing to pay this, and have instead set up trust accounts where-pending a settlement with the MCPS- they are paying in a percentage of the download price equal to the percentage they would pay for a CD.

While this is feasible for a small site, iTMS would not be able to get away with this, and so need to negotiate a proper agreement with MCPS. Without this, download prices at least here in the UK would have to be significantly more expensive than in the US- and who would likely cop the flak for this? Apple.

Roxio/Napster alluded to the collecting societies being the main obstacle at Midem (Euro music industry convention) last month. While the record labels are part of this, it is unfair to blame them entirely- MCPS is ultimately controlled by writers and performers of music, not the labels.

mkrishnan
Feb 10, 2004, 06:45 AM
Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
You can quite easily beat the system but only if you know someone in the USA that you can trust with your money. Get them to set up a cheap no-fee internet credit card using their address ...

If that isn't an option, you could probably get someone on one of these forums to buy a iTunes gift certificate and sell it to you (I think they're e-delivery) online using paypal. Then all you'd need to do is create the iTunes account with a bogus US mailing address, right?

Semi-OT: when iTunes releases in more global markets, what's the chance that new music from those markets will become available here? Will an American be able to buy iTunes songs released for Japan, etc? I hope so. :D

Stella
Feb 10, 2004, 06:57 AM
Doesn't surprise me one little bit.

To be honest, I cannot see the day when iTMS will arrive in Europe. Apple should make individual European Stores, otherwise the competitors will be getting in these countries first.

Whats keeping Canada iTMS though?

ITR 81
Feb 10, 2004, 06:58 AM
The UK, Sweden, Germany and France are already onboard. The reason I say this is because we already have them in our iTMS as imports.

dukemeiser
Feb 10, 2004, 07:31 AM
Why not just release music stores for individual countries first? Then the labels in the stubborn countries will see how much money is being made, and they'll come around quickly.

Wendy_Rebecca
Feb 10, 2004, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by Photorun
...blame Apple for their own countries (sic) enept (sic) and...

LOL...Unintentional humor at its best.

nitro
Feb 10, 2004, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
You can quite easily beat the system but only if you know someone in the USA that you can trust with your money. Get them to set up a cheap no-fee internet credit card using their address and name and let them keep the card in a draw somewhere out of the way. The card is linked to your bank balance and then you have the details so that you can use it on iTMS, settling the bill online.

They need to be close-ish family however - you wouldn't want them spending your money on it...

-----
Regarding the rest of the thread, I don't blame Apple. This really sucks and it may be better if they go country by country, although that may not be so good for the smaller, less dominating European countries. However, certainly there is some backward attitude in Britain that means companies only think in a very short-sighted way and try to rip everyone off. It wouldn't surprise me if the songs on iTMS cost 99p (if they are lower, I'm betting on 79p, not 54p that USA exchange rate is). Even that is far better value than 3.99 for a single with one song and two crap ones. I doubt I'd buy albums on iTMS though.



I was hoping some enterprising american would set up a legitimate company to provide this service, the rest of the world could either pay a set up fee, or pay a small surcharge everytime we get a song

nitro
Feb 10, 2004, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by Foocha
The whole point of iTMS is to buy music legally rather than using the freely available but illegal file sharing services.

In the event that you were a non-US resident, purchasing music from iTMS from outside of the US, it is unlikely that the music would be licensed anyway, so you're paying money for nothing.

So are you saying that if you buy your music in US then take it to the UK it is no longer licenced for you to listen to it?

Alienrat
Feb 10, 2004, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by Foocha
The whole point of iTMS is to buy music legally rather than using the freely available but illegal file sharing services.

In the event that you were a non-US resident, purchasing music from iTMS from outside of the US, it is unlikely that the music would be licensed anyway, so you're paying money for nothing.

So as I used to live in the states and bought a few CDs while I was there, does that mean I no longer have a license to listen to them now I have returned?

Foocha
Feb 10, 2004, 09:11 AM
This is a grey legal area, but as I understand (and I'm no legal expert) you are buying a license to listen to the music, rather than the physical data & right to decode it.

It is interesting to note that if you purchase music on iTMS as a US resident, when you move outside the US, if you change your address in your .Mac profile and re-install/upgrade your Mac, you will no longer be able to listen to your music.

nitro
Feb 10, 2004, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by Foocha
This is a grey legal area, but as I understand (and I'm no legal expert) you are buying a license to listen to the music, rather than the physical data & right to decode it.

It is interesting to note that if you purchase music on iTMS as a US resident, when you move outside the US, if you change your address in your .Mac profile and re-install/upgrade your Mac, you will no longer be able to listen to your music.

Isn't this a flaw in the system then, didn't Steve Jobs make a big deal that you owned the music not renting it.. If you emigrate to a different country you loose all the music you've legally bought, doesn't seem very fair

kaos_de_moria
Feb 10, 2004, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by ph8te
Europe being made up of individual countries is a very valid point, but why then do we europeans annually pour millions of Euros into our centralised European Cummunity in taxes. For the average person on the street the unified europe has brought absolutely zilch, nada, nichts.

sorry, but this is wrong.

the european community was important for germany to grow that fast after the 2nd world war and is very important for the german economy up to today. most of german economy relies on exports and if the part of the economy wouldn't work aswel as it does, the economic situation in germany would be alot worse. but, ok... germans just ike to complain about the EU...

Phazer80s
Feb 10, 2004, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by jholzner
iChat is a US only service? I thought it used AIM's protocol. What's the problem?

I just meant to say that iChat is U.S.-centric because of the large percentage of AOL Chat users outweighs that in other countries. Here in Canada the fact that you can talk with others on the AOL network isn't a plus because the number of AOL Chat users is so low. That considered along with the low number of Mac users around makes iChat a lonely experience. MSN Messenger on the other hand is the REAL party line. Everybody and their Aunt Bessie is on MSN.

Alienrat
Feb 10, 2004, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Phazer80s
I just meant to say that iChat is U.S.-centric because of the large percentage of AOL Chat users outweighs that in other countries. Here in Canada the fact that you can talk with others on the AOL network isn't a plus because the number of AOL Chat users is so low. That considered along with the low number of Mac users around makes iChat a lonely experience. MSN Messenger on the other hand is the REAL party line. Everybody and their Aunt Bessie is on MSN.

Whereas here in the UK, the only people I know on AOL are mac users and I need ICQ to talk to everyone else, apart from one person I know on MSN.

Foocha
Feb 10, 2004, 09:59 AM
1. Not all of Europe is a member of the EU - Switzerland, Norway etc

2. Not all of Europe uses the Euro - UK, Sweden, Denmark

3. Whilst we have some common EU directives they are ratified differently by each member state - that's a lot of legalese to get through

4. <off topic>Germany probably does pay too much to the EU, but the .de government only have themselves to blame for their bizarre support of France's position on the Common Agricultural Policy.</off topic>

Like most things in life, the EU has its pros & cons, but is of little help to Apple in this situation I think.

takao
Feb 10, 2004, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by Alienrat
Whereas here in the UK, the only people I know on AOL are mac users and I need ICQ to talk to everyone else, apart from one person I know on MSN.

OT:
im from central europe and have to agree ...
AOl is still around but their importance as a big ISP shrunk to a few percent..nobody is using AOL instant messenger .I know 2-3 people who are one MSN ...2 of them because of minesweeper online game :rolleyes: and everbody else: ICQ ...there are people who have internet access and don't have a email adress but they have ICQ
ICQ _is_ AOL proberty so it shouldn't be very difficult to make a deal iChat-ICQ like this iChat-Aim deal

i think iTunes europe won't have the same success like in the US ...the musik industry isn't really powerfull enough to threaten people with sueing ... the german music industrie had a huge campaign against music piracy this winter ... and got sued because they discriminated people who sit in prisons... the newspapers and tv made a lot of fun about those commercials

in holland kazaa is legal

this and the rather small iTunes user base (because of less macs) will lead to rather moderate success in the beginning

Stella
Feb 10, 2004, 10:43 AM
???? Who is smoking crack?

Nothing stops you from listening to your music if you move to a different country - CDs, or music purchased from ITMS, anything.



Originally posted by nitro
Isn't this a flaw in the system then, didn't Steve Jobs make a big deal that you owned the music not renting it.. If you emigrate to a different country you loose all the music you've legally bought, doesn't seem very fair

John Lockwood
Feb 10, 2004, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Foocha
4. <off topic>Germany probably does pay too much to the EU, but the .de government only have themselves to blame for their bizarre support of France's position on the Common Agricultural Policy.</off topic>


O so true.

The EU has been designed for and is run for solely the benefit of French peasants.

While one can understand why the French goverment wants this, I cannot see why the German government keeps on supporting (and paying for) it.

flipflash77
Feb 10, 2004, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Stella
Whats keeping Canada iTMS though?
I'm going to jump in and say Canadian Content laws. While CANCON I think applies more specifically to broadcast channels (radio, TV), it's probably a case where the different recording industry lobbies in Canada are demanding there be some localization and provisions for Canadian content. I'm too ignorant to look up hard numbers today. I'm sure someone will chime in on the CANCON regulations (I remember them being hotly debated here back in Oct/Nov03 when we were hoping we'd have it already).

Other issues... We have two (or more) recording industry lobbies that Apple needs to get licensing from. That was easier in the US with the one huge RIAA to deal with. Up here the artists have one lobby, the writer's have another lobby, the labels might even have a lobby of their own. How very European non? ;)

As a reasonably patriotic Canadian, I've tried using puretracks.com (Canadian WMA store). It bites. The first couple congs I purchased were great. A Coldplay song was actually in 320kbps WMA, which I then burned and reimported into iTunes. Since that first purchase though, it's been nothing but a hassle. I bought 6 songs about a month ago: they all came at different bitrates ranging from 128 to 160 to 192. (which I guess was provided by the label), and continually failed to burn to CD. Add on stupid WMA DRM limits of 3 CD burns, and I quickly ran out of burns trying to figure out why WMPlayer was always failing to burn. So emails to tech support had them resetting the DRM, me trying to burn on different machines, NOTHING. It failed every time no matter where I burned it. WMA sucks. Just this week they finally credited me with a refund. Won't see me shopping there any more.

So now I'm back to using iTMS with bought Gift Cards from an Apple Store, or cousins in the US emailling me gift certificates. iTMS is great. Now I wonder what happens to all of my stuff when iTMS does come to Canada... Change my billing address back to Canada, but what will happen to remaining credits and already purchased music... :confused:

iMan
Feb 10, 2004, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by takao
i think iTunes europe won't have the same success like in the US ........
this and the rather small iTunes user base (because of less macs) will lead to rather moderate success in the beginning

I partly agree - and Apple needs to hurry to get a piece...
Still I believe the iTunes userbase is a lot larger than the Mac user base - even in Europe. The iPods are vastly popular amongst PC user as well, I know a lot of Win users that like the iTunes and uses it, and also the HP deal (preinstalled iTunes) is paving the ground for success. But I am not sure if Apple can afford to wait until after this summer to launch... There is a lot going on, and as soon as people hooks up to another store/concept they might be very hard to win back...

Localcelebrity
Feb 10, 2004, 11:16 AM
it's so sad how messed up the world's legal systems are... this whole process is rediculously overcomplicated.

billyboy
Feb 10, 2004, 11:26 AM
As someone mentioned earlier, it was announced that the UK singles market is dropping - the public only bought 35 million singles last year, down from 50 million in 2002. But you are talking island prices here, not highly competitive US pricing, and at 3.99 a pop even with declining sales, the nincumpoops running the industry probably think they are in the driving seat, not Apple.

Apple basically have to set the first bar upwards of 120 million tracks per year at 99p just to match current singles sales in little old UK stores. Quite a step in faith really. I would go for it, but then I am not a dinosaur music man, and although I have no idea what is going on, it really wouldnt surprise me if the UK ended up a year behind everyone else's thinking.

jj2003
Feb 10, 2004, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by takao
OT:
ICQ _is_ AOL proberty so it shouldn't be very difficult to make a deal iChat-ICQ like this iChat-Aim deal


That is true, AOL owns ICQ. The thing that many people do not know is that upgrading to a new enough (Windows) ICQ will give you ICQ-AIM interoperability, text only, AFAIK.

That means also that if the other party is using new enough ICQ you can chat with them with iChat. Just write the ICQ-number instead of AOL screenname.

jj2003
Feb 10, 2004, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by iMan
But then I would not complain about prices here in Norway neither, we are some percent above the US, but we also have a 24% sales tax.

The sales tax varies from country to country so it's best to compare tax free prices (as the prices on US Apple Store).

I would not complain much about Norweigian prices either. I checked the price for 12" powerbook (with no extras), according to Apple Store the price in Norway is about 12089 NOK == 1357 EUR == 1732 USD.

In Finland (and other EU-countries with Euro, I would guess) the price is 1599 EUR == 2040 USD == 14245 NOK.

As the price in USA is 1599 USD, Apple is charging me $440 for localisation, shipping etc. Does the Finnish localisation cost $300 more than Norweigian for each shipped unit, hardly.

I would gladly spend that $300 for something else than Steve's next vacation, or at least get an iPod in exchange for my money.

Edited twice because of some silly typing mistakes :)

iMan
Feb 10, 2004, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by jj2003

As the price in USA is 1599 USD, Apple is charging me $440 for localisation, shipping etc. Does the Finnish localisation cost $300 more than Norweigian for each shipped unit, hardly.
[/I]

Yes, that was weird. Norway and Finland is about the same size market I should guess, and even with Finland inside EU + euro should be to their advantage... strange!

iMan
Feb 10, 2004, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by jj2003
according to Apple Store the price in Norway is about 12089 NOK == 1357 EUR == 1732 USD.

In Finland (and other EU-countries with Euro, I would guess) the price is 1599 EUR == 2040 USD == 14245 NOK.
[/I]

I checked also swedish and UK prices:
In Sweden the equivalent price would be USD 2013, and UK 2068! How weird is that! And they say Norway is an expensive country :D

CmdrLaForge
Feb 10, 2004, 01:46 PM
I would be glad if they just release it country by country. Whenever they are ready in one country - GO. Would even make sense in terms of revenues.

billyboy
Feb 10, 2004, 02:41 PM
I wonder which powerful representatives of the music industry Apple are speaking to for launching iTMS in places like Luxembourg and the principality of the Vatican City?

visor
Feb 10, 2004, 03:08 PM
Let's face it, even though I'm located in europe, why would I even want an european ITMS? It doesn't suit my demand. I definately want a localized store, that means - different music than elsewhere, different Homepages than eslewhere, different languages, different focus, completely different way of lives.
While I'd like to switch between stores, I don't want the focus to be diffused by mixing everything into one.

visor
Feb 10, 2004, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by jj2003
The sales tax varies from country to country so it's best to compare tax free prices (as the prices on US Apple Store).


As the price in USA is 1599 USD, Apple is charging me $440 for localisation, shipping etc. Does the Finnish localisation cost $300 more than Norweigian for each shipped unit, hardly.


I've been complainig about that times and times again, but on the other hand - the US $ is dropping so fast, it would probably to expensive to adjust the prices all the time.
Last summer it would have been 300 Cheaper to FLY to NEW YORK, BUY A 17" POWERBOOK, AND COME HOME AGAIN that buying it at the local Apple store.

There's your vacation. ;)

visor
Feb 10, 2004, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by John Lockwood
O so true.

The EU has been designed for and is run for solely the benefit of French peasants.

While one can understand why the French goverment wants this, I cannot see why the German government keeps on supporting (and paying for) it.

Well, I don't know about you, but i rather pay a higher price for a comparatively good product that people work for, that pay it for employless people that just cause trouble.

Just look at what they have to eat in the US... It's not a desirable goal

visor
Feb 10, 2004, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by mobility3
I've been roaming around Europe for some years. The musician union/copyright systems seem to run extremely deep. In Germany for instance I believe you have to pay a tax just to own a radio or television and you are not allowed to play a radio station in a restaurant or shop without paying authors rights duties. The same goes for all material broadcast on radio stations. There are 'controlers' who go around everywhere and enforce the regulations.


Actually it's not a tax you're paying, but a fee. That was once implemented to finance to national Bradcast stations restricted to souvereign right.
that fee is about to undergo major changes soon btw. ;)
Playing radio in public is completly unspectacular, as long as you don't play it to attract customers. It's quite logical that you have to pay royalties to persons whose work you take to advertise your producs, services.
Now, for the 'controllers' : they enforce nothing, but there are civilians running around, trying hard to make you register your radio and tv set. As for everyone without judical allowance - their power is limited to outside your house. If he tries to 'enforce ' anything inside your doors, you're well allowed to use the apropiate tools to enfoce your right of untouchable household. I have a very nice one piece solid stainless steel geologist hammer for those purposes. That is not only good for breaking granite and the like, if used correctly it even makes cars hold a very respective distance if you walk down a narrow country road. Extremely useful tool. worth every penny ;)

iMan
Feb 10, 2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by visor
Actually it's not a tax you're paying, but a fee. That was once implemented to finance to national Bradcast stations restricted to souvereign right.
that fee is about to undergo major changes soon btw. ;)
Playing radio in public is completly unspectacular, as long as you don't play it to attract customers. It's quite logical that you have to pay royalties to persons whose work you take to advertise your producs, services.


I must arrest you a little bit on this one. This might be very different from country to country, but I know that in several countries in Europe - although debated - there are no plans to abolish or even reduce the fee/tax you are talking about (for owning a TV receptor).
Also, in the matter of playing music in public, there are several countries were you have to pay a fee to the artist/songwriter organisation. This applies to all areas were the public has access (i.e. malls, shops, restaurants, even taxi's some places and of course radiostations - any place as long as it is to attract/entertain). Playing your radio/CD player as a private person on the beach is of course no problem. So far these regulations, as far as I know will, be upheld.
Again: these rules are probably very different from each country - and I know of but a few of them...

orangedv
Feb 10, 2004, 07:46 PM
The more I think about this, the more puzzling it seems.....

Consider a step into tomorrow; iTunes Europe is up and running across the continent. You log on, but you don't necessarily speak English. Problem. Ok, let 's have a drop down menu for language selection. While we are at it, let's offer music that reflects that language choice, because let's be honest, hard core Portuguese rock might not sell well in Denmark. Before you know it, your all European iTunes store is to all intent a country by country system. Which brings me to the point. Why bother going for the whole continent?:confused:

orangedv
Feb 10, 2004, 07:49 PM
how can I be a 'newbie' having been registered for this amount of time?

Rower_CPU
Feb 10, 2004, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by orangedv
how can I be a 'newbie' having been registered for this amount of time?

Status is determined by post count, not length of time registered.

m2uk
Feb 10, 2004, 09:54 PM
I was discussing this (lack of E ITMS) with a friend and he jokingly (I think) said that Apple had to make a European launch because many Americans would not understand where many European countries would be (one big lake between New York, Ireland and England) and then there is some place which makes funny cuckoo clocks and then you have the Russian Bear.

I pointed out that Apple users are generally more intelligent and would know that Europe is one big place even if they would be forgiven for not knowing it is as corrupt (institution wise) as the UN and other big places.

Now, you could imagine a "red neck" Gateway / Msft using guy wondering why a Good Ol American company, even if it has a slightly faggy leftwing pinko leaning is giving music to those cheese eating surrender monkeys. Perhaps they think it is some extension of Radio Free Europe or a CIA conversion campaign.





DISCLAIMER. The last paragraph is satire. I do not subscribe to the view that all Americans are dumb asses. Whilst there are many dumb ass Americans, there are no doubt equal proportions of dumb ass Britons, French folks and even Finns. But the latter just hide in obscurity doing government work and sending me lots of paperworks to fill in which are made purposefully compelx.

iLilana
Feb 10, 2004, 11:36 PM
why does Macrumors.com post ads for Puretracks.com which is windows only music downloads???? In fact they went out of thier way to NOT allow macs use their website. An agreement with MS no doubt.

suddenly I feel like the girl in the black armor from Blood Gulch Chronicles. ... or was that Private Donut...?

iMan
Feb 11, 2004, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by m2uk

..... sending me lots of paperworks to fill in which are made purposefully compelx.

which indicates they are not so dumb after all... on the other hand, if you find it complex and hard.... :D



DISCLAIMER: This is intended as a humourous post only, and should not be taken seriously. I do not subscribe to the view that fins just run around in the woods, naked, hitting at each other with axes. I believe there are equal amount of people in any country (yes, Norway also) that do the exact same thing.

m2uk
Feb 11, 2004, 03:45 AM
Ha.... they are not as bad as the English tax return papers though. Complex does not need to equate hard. After all, if one can use a Windows GUI )

Should we now find a Dane and go and gang up on the Swedes hiding out with the Americans trying to look cool, in the spirit of Nordic cooperation ...

iMan
Feb 11, 2004, 04:02 AM
Originally posted by m2uk
Should we now find a Dane and go and gang up on the Swedes hiding out with the Americans trying to look cool, in the spirit of Nordic cooperation ...

That would be fun! I just have to figure out how this could bring us an ITMS over here as soon as possible... :D

billyboy
Feb 11, 2004, 07:24 AM
I hope Steve Jobs isnt in a tearing hurry when he negotiates iTMS in Finland. Speeding tickets are unbelievable!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-997319,00.html

mkrishnan
Feb 11, 2004, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by m2uk
Perhaps they think it is some extension of Radio Free Europe or a CIA conversion campaign.


When you said your response is satirical, you didn't mean this part, right? This part is true, right? :)

I'd be surprised if it's anything more complicated than the legal zoo of multiple countries, though...isn't there some kind of timetable for harmonized IP laws between EU countries? I thought I remembered reading about this with respect to French droit morale laws and colorizing/remastering/remixing movies.

Someone else posted saying they didn't like the idea of iTunes Europe b/c they wanted a local iTunes with local content that was different than everyone else's. I'm not sure I understand this perspective. I think, of course, every European user would expect that at least a good chunk of the more popular music in their region would be sold in iTunes (inasmuch as this is true for pop music in the USA and the USA iTMS). But why do the collections need to be mutually exclusive? I don't understand, for instance, why you (as, say a Finn) would not patronize a store because it sold Italian favorites as well as Finnish music, esp. when you have the advantage of hierarchical navigation / browsing. And of course Finnish (in the example) musicians would benefit more if non-Finns could buy their music.

OTOH, I think wanting a customized new music / start page by country or even region is somewhat more reasonable. I think the system should also try to customize the start page based on recent purchases, a la Amazon.

The side benefit would be that iTunes would never again have to announce to me that a new Brittney Spears album is available. ;)

iMan
Feb 11, 2004, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by mkrishnan
OTOH, I think wanting a customized new music / start page by country or even region is somewhat more reasonable.

This was also the point I believe. Europe is not a homogenuos continent as the US. The record labels having different release times is one thing, but national music is quite strong in most countries - for instance it is not rare to see 5-6 norwegian entries in the norwegian top 10 charts. These would of course not necessarily be popular in other countries, but as a norwegian I would expect them to be promoted. Apple already do this with the Apple store - not all items are availabel at same times in different countries, and also there are localized campaigns.

m2uk
Feb 12, 2004, 05:02 AM
Maybe the ideal is you go to the store you want and get a "country specific" offering but in your preferences you can equally say "I will use the US store as my "local branch" but can see and order from these foreign branches as I see fit. That way, if a track is on sale in Finland before England maybe an English person would have to "import" it at the English price until it comes on "domestic relase". With free trade rules in Europe I think that is doable.

mkrishnan
Feb 12, 2004, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by m2uk
Maybe the ideal is you go to the store you want and get a "country specific" offering but in your preferences you can equally say "I will use the US store as my "local branch" but can see and order from these foreign branches as I see fit. That way, if a track is on sale in Finland before England maybe an English person would have to "import" it at the English price until it comes on "domestic relase". With free trade rules in Europe I think that is doable.

That wouldn't be too bad, although I wonder why one would need to pay foreign prices.

In the US, there's a moderately-sized import gray market of concert CDs released in Japan or Hong Kong but not here....

To add to your point, though, if a slight price premium is what it would take to be able to buy foreign music on iTunes, I'd be good for that.

m2uk
Feb 14, 2004, 09:32 AM
The mention of premium was to provide for extra alleged costs and to protect the "national music distributor". A sort of bad halfway house.

Pudi
Feb 15, 2004, 09:22 AM
In a Swiss Newspaper (Sonntags-Zeitung) they had an article in which one the Manager of Apple Switzerland quoted, that technically they are ready. We're just waiting for the "go" descision of the labels and a common date of all the labels.

Interesting: Introduction date planned for Summer 04.

Here's the link. Sorry it's in german...

http://www.sonntagszeitung.ch/dyn/news/multimedia/348629.html

DJY
Feb 21, 2004, 07:02 PM
I was thinking about this the other day.... Despite all rumours for Aust, Europe, Japan, Canada et al.... I don't think Apple have made any actual movements to providing iTMS beyond the USA - that they have made public?

So they get in first... in the biggest market... get themselves out of the red.... get huge market share... and now nothing?

Or maybe they don't care / don't want to / and are already moving towards their next big coup?!?!

I hope that fleeting thought of mine was wrong... and I still would love to click on the Music Store link in iTUNES one day and NOT get that country warning!!!!!

I can dream anyway - but I am only in Aust... the lucky country!?

johnnyjibbs
Feb 22, 2004, 07:02 AM
On a related note, if I go to Target or Walmart or whatever when I visit the US in May and buy a $20 pre-paid card, will I then be able to buy 20 songs from the store when I'm back at home in Blighty? (At the current exchange rate, that's 50p a song!)

I'm getting impatient. Occassionaly I hear a song on the radio and I want to get it, not the whole album. Singles are way too expensive and it's hard to find old songs. iTunes is the way to go. I would still buy CDs (cheap off Play.com) for actual whole albums.

AlanAudio
Feb 22, 2004, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
.....when I visit the US in May and buy a $20 pre-paid card, will I then be able to buy 20 songs from the store when I'm back at home in Blighty?

I think I read somewhere that you also need a valid iTMS account in order to use a pre-paid card.

As far as I know, you can only currently get an iTMS account if you have a credit card that is charged to a US address.

johnnyjibbs
Feb 22, 2004, 10:44 AM
That's a bit of a bummer then. Guess I'll have to wait for the British version. HURRY UP APPLE!!! ;) :D