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MacRumors
Feb 11, 2004, 04:52 AM
Brighthand.com provided (http://www.brighthand.com/article/Whats_Not_in_Cobalt) a brief preview of the upcoming Palm OS Cobalt featured at the PalmSource conference on February 10th. It appears Mac syncing, however, is not in the works:

Mr. Slotnick .... made it clear that PalmSource isn't developing a Mac version of the Palm Desktop. As the way the PIM apps work has changed significantly, this means Mac users won't be able to HotSync without third-party software.

While a 3rd party (Mark/Space, Missing Sync) is planning on providing this functionality for Mac users, a lack of built-in functionality is unfortunate.

wrldwzrd89
Feb 11, 2004, 04:59 AM
I'm not too happy about this decision by PalmOne. I am a Palm owner, but I don't think I'll buy any more Palm OS-based devices in the future because of this news. I have another beef with Palm: why no Palm OS updates for Tungsten T? Mine came with Palm OS 5.0; 5.22 is the latest release that I know of. Why on earth can't I update to 5.22?

Poff
Feb 11, 2004, 05:00 AM
I do hope Apple will provide full iSync support for it then. If so, this is a good thing, imo.

boehncke
Feb 11, 2004, 05:00 AM
This is really unfortunate and a stupid move on behalf of PalmSource. Today, Mac owners (almost 10M on Mac OS X) have no choice and must buy a Palm if they want functional syncing and a big company behind the product. In the future, this means there is NO PDA that will work with a Mac and this is a major setback. I wonder what it will take for Apple to wake up and at least consider two options: work with Palm at no charge and develop a syncing solution for the new Palm OSes or finally launch their own PDA.

This sucks big time - I depend on my Palm all the time

wrldwzrd89
Feb 11, 2004, 05:02 AM
Originally posted by Poff
I do hope Apple will provide full iSync support for it then. If so, this is a good thing, imo.

Poff, you bring up a very good point. If Apple provides full iSync support for Cobalt Palms, the lack of official support from PalmOne won't matter. However, due to the fact that Apple views PDAs as overrated and not worth adding to the product line, I see this as unlikely.

scottlee
Feb 11, 2004, 05:14 AM
Too bad, but palms are a thing of the past. Between my phone and my iPod, I never use my Palm anymore.

boehncke
Feb 11, 2004, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by Poff
I do hope Apple will provide full iSync support for it then. If so, this is a good thing, imo.

I think that is quite laughable. Apple has never managed to get iSync to work well with Palm. My Palm syncs literally in seconds via Hotsync, with iSync it takes 20 Minutes (!!!) every darn time even if nothing has changed. In addition, it will not properly sync all items and more than once has wiped out all my attached notes on my Palm address book. In my opinion iSync = iSuck. The only thing that appears to work ok is syncing with .mac.

I read a while ago that Apple purchased a syncing company. If so, I hope that iSync 2 will provide what iSync promised but hasn´t delivered so far. I hate Windows, but really, my Palm syncing experience there has been flawless and trouble free over the last years (I have to use Windows at work)

MacBoyPBG4
Feb 11, 2004, 05:21 AM
a really bad move by palm, maybey this will bring more support by apple through iSync etc.

Poff
Feb 11, 2004, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by boehncke
I think that is quite laughable. Apple has never managed to get iSync to work well with Palm. My Palm syncs literally in seconds via Hotsync, with iSync it takes 20 Minutes (!!!) every darn time even if nothing has changed. In addition, it will not properly sync all items and more than once has wiped out all my attached notes on my Palm address book. In my opinion iSync = iSuck. The only thing that appears to work ok is syncing with .mac.

I read a while ago that Apple purchased a syncing company. If so, I hope that iSync 2 will provide what iSync promised but hasn´t delivered so far. I hate Windows, but really, my Palm syncing experience there has been flawless and trouble free over the last years (I have to use Windows at work)

iSync works flawlessly on my Palm, but I´ve only got a zire.

boehncke
Feb 11, 2004, 05:25 AM
I think it may depend on the amount of data on the Palm. I have over 1000 contacts and a bunch of other stuff and that seems to be too much for iSync - or I´ve just had bad luck :-(

ervinocus
Feb 11, 2004, 05:27 AM
Originally posted by boehncke
(...) or finally launch their own PDA.


I will beg SJ on my knees to have a MacOs powered version of this hardware:

Samsung NEXiO

http://www.pdabuyersguide.com/nexio_S160.htm

HINT: it has a 800 x 480 points screen!!!

prismfinder
Feb 11, 2004, 05:49 AM
Developers always look at Apple's 5% marketshare and think it's not worth building apps for.

This is a big mistake. I'd be willing to bet that a much higher percentage of Mac users use PDAs than PC users. In fact, I know few Mac users that don't use PDAs.

Personally, however, I hope this just means Sony will move in on the Mac space by providing Mac support for the Clie.

xjohn
Feb 11, 2004, 05:54 AM
So sad. :( I'd love it if iSync would support Palms, but without Palm desktop it would be syncing to an inferior PIM, in my opinion.

Oh, well. Actually, by the time I'm ready for a new Palm, I'm sure there will be other options on the market. I imagine it'll be a smartphone. But I guess not a Treo...

edit: Now that I've taken a look at it, the solution from Mark/Space (http://www.markspace.com/cobalt.html) looks pretty exciting.

dricci
Feb 11, 2004, 05:54 AM
What the hell? Aren't Mac users a major chunk of Palm's userbase? That's always been my impression. It seems on most Palm forums I've been to, the most active users were Mac users running OS X.

This decision just doesn't make any sense... Hopefully Apple will get iSync working with the new system without Palm's help. Of course they'd probably start charging $30/year for it :rolleyes:

Supa_Fly
Feb 11, 2004, 06:03 AM
Are you nuts? Doubt that Sony will step to the plate. Wondering if Cobalt can finally be a stand alone OS??

I 1st thought PalmSource not supporting Apple was a crop-out move....however, I think Apple can fill in nicely.

PalmSource is moving to mobile smartphone devices which SHOULD support SyncML. Doesn't OS X already have suppport for this?? I'm Guessing an Plist file supporting SyncML within Entourage, iCal, iTunes, iPhoto, maybe even iMovie/QuickTime Streaming Media Server in order to allow wireless hotsyncing to the Mac that has even limited FileSharing turned on??

Just brainstorming.

amaier
Feb 11, 2004, 06:04 AM
I just sold my palm because I'm only using my mobile phone – I don't want tro carry always two devices, respectively three with the iPod… Anyway I am hoping that my iPod will be able to phone! I don't think there is a futur for palm anyway.

reyesmac
Feb 11, 2004, 06:28 AM
If a company is cheap enough to use Microsoft giveaway technologies to save money in programing their products, then they will usually be too cheap to make a Mac version. I hope Apple comes up with their own product that makes the PDA obsolete someday.

Totally of topic: Apple needs to come up with more drivers for cheap devices, like USB cameras and webcams. Pretty sad when the only way to talk to some windows dude with a cheap camera is to spend $130.

I guess most companies don't spend as much as they should on software.

Chip NoVaMac
Feb 11, 2004, 06:43 AM
I agree that Apple needs to work on a better iSync. Lacking that Apple should work with Palm to ensure Mac support for the Palm. I am sure it is the $ involved to write the code for Mac.

JDOG_
Feb 11, 2004, 06:46 AM
Come on now, seriously--I know the market is only 3% of computer users, but it's still enough to warrant a month or so of dev. time to code for Macs. Not to mention I'd like to see a solid % of Palm users based on both platforms to see if Mac users are still in that sub 10% range.

I'm sure a lot of people who go from work & home have different platforms, especially in education where many professors and colleges have faculty mac programs.

BAD move Palm...but the good news out of all this is that there's a void to fill with a MacOS-based pda--more money to spend.

P.S.-There will be a third-party option, but it costs $40....just to sync! *vomit* :(

kiwi_the_iwik
Feb 11, 2004, 06:50 AM
Perhaps the next-generation iPods may well fill the gap left behind with the demise of the Newton - which in turn means that Palm can go to hell.

The newer iPod could be marketed as an MP3 player (first and foremost), with the added features of a PDA - i.e. bigger, COLOUR touch-screen, Newton handwriting technology (STILL way ahead of its' time), large storage medium, infra-red/bluetooth support, and a welcome upgrade for the digital hub - as well as OSX compatibility right out of the box!.

Hell - it could even liaise with your existing entertainment centre, acting as a master remote control unit!

I'd buy into THAT...

:cool:

lajocaab
Feb 11, 2004, 07:18 AM
The technology is available to provide consumers with a product like "iSlate". Of course only Apple could really do it right, although several other companies are attempting to create some variation of this device. Unfortunately many are too focused on video playback only, & not creating a true multi-function device that could be used at home, at the office, or on the road. One that can handle PIM functions & business apps, as well as video. This product would integrate well into the "Digital Lifestyle" philosophy & compliment existing Apple product.

It would provide a screen large enough to actually watch video & view photos, while still being small enough to be portable. It needs to be smaller than a notebook computer, but larger than a PDA. Granted, you can not but a device the size of a DVD case in your pocket, but something doesn't have to fit in a pocket to be portable. This device could be used in so many different situations that if would have broad appeal in the market. I only pray that Apple is working on such a device & will release it in 2004. They have an opportunity to impact the industry with the iSlate & iVideo media Store as much as the iPod & iTMS will.

iSlate

New Apple mini-tablet –> PMA (portable media appliance)

Designed not to be a creative device like a desktop or laptop, but rather a sophisticated display device that communicates seamlessly with other devices via Rendezvous & 802.11, BT, FireWire, etc.


Device Size:
8” x 5.0” x .65” (±15oz)
± 1/2 size of a 17” PowerBook
± 2x size of a Palm T3 or an iPod
± size of a DVD movie case
small enough to hold with one hand by the bezel (.5” bezel on the sides)

Screen:
±8” LCD (16:9 ratio) -> 800 x 480 pixels minimum (1024 x 600 ideally)
± 1/2 size of 17” PowerBook screen
± 2x size of a Palm T3 screen
able to display “640 x 480 material” & DVD (720x480) quality video natively

Battery:
6-9 hr. Li-Ion battery (or some new battery technology)

Storage:
1.8” 20GB or 40GB Toshiba hard drive (additional capacity can come from external devices)
128MB or 256MB RAM - fixed
CF slot (w/ adapter for SD, xD, Smart Media, Memory stick)

Processor & OS ?:
Motorola 800 MHz G4 mobile w/ Mac OS X lite or
Intel 400 MHz XScale PXA263 w/ Palm OS 6 or Mac OS Mobile?

Connectivity:
802.11 –> Desktop or Laptop, Stereo, Internet via Wi-Fi hotspots
Bluetooth –> Keyboard, Mouse, PDA, Wireless Headphones, Internet via GSM Phone
FireWire –> iPod, Computer, Hard Drive, DVD/CD writer, Video Camera, iSight
USB 2.0 –> Printer, PDA, Digital Still Camera
mini-DVI w/adapter for:
-> ADC & VGA for larger monitor
-> DVI for video projector or HDTV
-> S-Video for video projector or TV
-> Composite for video projector or TV
Stereo mini out
Stereo mini in
Rendezvous for seamless connectivity to other devices

Input:
Inkwell via touch screen &/or stylus
Keyboard & mouse via Bluetooth or USB
Microphone
Remote control via Bluetooth

Applications:
inkwell, iPhoto, iTunes, iMovie, Safari, QuickTime, iSync, Rendezvous
Preview or Acrobat Reader, Mail, iCal, Address Book, Sherlock, iChat AV
Keynote, FileMaker, Quicken,

A/V Formats:
Pixlet, MPEG-4, MPEG-2, MPEG-1, AAC, MP3, WAV, AIFF, Audible, JPEG, TIFF, GIF

Accessories:
Charger, External Battery, Stand, clip for iSight, Portable folding BT keyboard, BT mouse
Headphone w/Microphone boom, quality stereo headphones

Price ??:
$699 to $899


Create a device that is bigger that the largest PDA or Archos type device, yet smaller than the average notebook or tablet computer. Imagine if you will, holding a device (about the size of a DVD case) away from you anywhere from 12" to 18". Obviously a 4" screen would be inadequate, but a 7" to 9" diagonal widescreen would be more than acceptable. It could still be small enough to fit in a stack of books, a briefcase, a large purse, of any number of other carrying cases. It would be something that could be viewed in an office, at home, in a coffee shop, on an airplane or train, or even in the backseat of a car.

The idea is not to see how much visual information one can cram into a small space (3" to 4" screens) or replace existing devices like the TV or Video Projector. The idea is to create a device that is a reasonable compromise between portability & "acceptable or pleasurable" viewing for multiple applications & that also complements existing devices.

Although a 4 lb, 12" notebook computer displays video beautifully (I use one everyday), it is too big for the situations I have described. Beyond the innumerable business applications it could fulfill, it could display video & photos on a screen that is much bigger than an Archos type device or PDA, & yet smaller than a notebook computer. It doesn’t need to carry everything all the time, so it doesn’t require a massive hard drive. The internal HD needs only to be large enough for the OS, applications & enough storage to carry material while you away from any connectivity to other devices or the internet.

From a strictly “video perspective”, a large part of its success would hinge upon Apple's ability to distribute video clips through an online store much like iTMS. This store could provide educational content, business content, news content, & entertainment content beyond just movies. To be truly successful, it must integrate into Apple's "Digital Lifestyle" strategy, & be truly portable (ubiquitous wireless connectivity & good battery life).

BwanaZulia
Feb 11, 2004, 07:19 AM
Don't forget to drop Palm a note... I just gave them a little of my mind.

BZ

http://www.palmone.com/us/support/contact/email_support.html

BobVB
Feb 11, 2004, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by xjohn
So sad. :( I'd love it if iSync would support Palms, but without Palm desktop it would be syncing to an inferior PIM, in my opinion.

Oh, well. Actually, by the time I'm ready for a new Palm, I'm sure there will be other options on the market. I imagine it'll be a smartphone. But I guess not a Treo...

serendipity strikes again. I just fired off a feedback to Handspring/Palm last night that because they have chosen to drop Graffiti input for their PDA smart phones I will be looking elsewhere for one.

With keyboard input only I will ALWAYS have to look at the device to enter information - with handwriting recognition I don't.

My next PDA will be a smartphone and it will be a GSM/GPRS one with bluetooth, handwriting recognition (Graffiti, Jot etc) and customizable programming (Palm would be great but I guess Java will be ok). The Sony Ericsson P900 (http://www.sonyericsson.com/us/spg.jsp?page=start&Redir=template%3DPS1%26B%3Die%26PID%3D10101%26LM%3DPSM_V%26gal%3D105) fits the bill so far and Palm isn't even in the running.

Lancetx
Feb 11, 2004, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by amaier
I just sold my palm because I'm only using my mobile phone – I don't want tro carry always two devices, respectively three with the iPod… Anyway I am hoping that my iPod will be able to phone! I don't think there is a futur for palm anyway.

I did the same thing a couple of months ago too. Between my BT phone and iPod, I didn't need my Palm anymore either. This news just reinforces the fact that I made the right decision by getting rid of it. Good riddance PalmOne...

Wendy_Rebecca
Feb 11, 2004, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by boehncke
My Palm syncs literally in seconds via Hotsync, with iSync it takes 20 Minutes

I don't know what you're doing, but 20 minutes? Something's wrong. Mine syncs in mere moments (and that includes syncing with .mac and my iPod as well).

But aside from that, this story should be a wake up call for all of you that don't think market share matters. With less than 3%, who can blame Palm for walking away from the Mac? A sign of things to come. Look for more and more Mac marginalization in the near future.

flyfish29
Feb 11, 2004, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by Poff
I do hope Apple will provide full iSync support for it then. If so, this is a good thing, imo.

I tend to disagree...the bad press the Apple Mac will get from this could be very devestating...even though there are third part apps avail to sync, it many eyes, all they will hear on the news or hear at the store is Palm doesn't make OS for the mac anymore! Very negative press and couuld really hurt apple with "professionals" who use Palm OS and want to use mac or already use a mac.

stoid
Feb 11, 2004, 08:07 AM
Well, after SJ announced to the press that he saw absolutely no future in the PDA market, and basically said that making an Apple PDA would be jumping into an already sinking ship, I really can't blame Palm for being a little miffed.

deejemon
Feb 11, 2004, 08:08 AM
*

Photorun
Feb 11, 2004, 08:11 AM
Palm's earnings have stunk up the joint and overall they've lost a lot of market. With this move I hope they crash and burn, I feel sorry for all the employees who lose their jobs, but hey, it was likely a management decision. Bye Palm, I'll laugh at your funeral.

peterjhill
Feb 11, 2004, 08:30 AM
Steve Jobs is smart to stay out of the PDA business. I have a palm. I never use it. Sure it is instant on, but in the summer, I don't want to carry my iPod, my Laptop, and a palm pilot. My iPod is great for contacts and calendar information. And serious things can go right into my laptop.

I would buy an iPaq way before I would buy another Palm. But, hey, that's me, YMMV

MikeAtari
Feb 11, 2004, 08:34 AM
The true mark of an unprofessional CTO, is to give away 20 million users, simply because he's too lazy to find a cross platform coding solution.

There is Java, Basic, and C++ cross platform solutions out there. I wonder how he justifies these lost future sales to the CEO or the Board of Directors.

jrothman
Feb 11, 2004, 08:42 AM
Wow -- a lot of irrelevant pie-in-the-sky nonesense in this forum. This is bad, and 'screw you, Palm, I want my imaginary Apple iSlate' is not a meaningful response. On the macro level, this is really bad for Apple in the enterprise, where people really do use PDAs. The idea that 'nobody uses them' that Steve seems to have comes, IMO, from the fact that he doesn't think in the business space, where everybody uses them -- and where PocketPCs serve as big arguments for using PCs. This makes every heavy PDA user locked-in to the PC platform until they give up their PDA.
<p>
The iPod will never be a PDA: where's the input? the external devices? the third-party software? Parachute is a far cry from Documents-To-Go. And though the P900 is a very cool device, it is hugely expensive. A Palm is $100; Symbian phones and Treos are way more expensive. You can't really blame Palm -- the reason there are so many apparently active users in their forums is that Palm sync has never worked well under OS X, is my guess. Apple has failed to facilitate them and has never taken iSync seriously for PDAs.
<p>
I hope this is a wake-up call to Apple to seriously develop iSync and the iPIM applications, and to make them robust alternative to Palm desktop. Improvements have been needed for a long while now, and lack of a Microsofot Exchange-like app is a large part of what keeps companies from adopting Mac OS. Let's see some changes in software.

clonenode
Feb 11, 2004, 08:43 AM
Maybe Palm knows something we don't... like an Apple branded Palm device in the works that will use Apple specific software.

luiss
Feb 11, 2004, 08:44 AM
Do mac users even care about the 'Desktop' in Palm desktop. All I care about is the HotSync Manager.
Hopefully Apple can supply the sync functionality with iSync in the future.

BwanaZulia
Feb 11, 2004, 08:49 AM
It is not about the Palm Desktop, it is about hotsyncing. Apple made iSync but it still needs to have the Hotsynce manager of Palms in order to run.

Palm should move to SyncML and make it an open standard so they can get out of the conduit business (which has no money). If they open it up, there will be Linux drivers, OSX drivers, etc.

If you think about the data that is sycning, why can't it just be open standards.

- Contacts should be Vcards
- Memos should be XML based
- Calendars events should be iCal (forgot the open standard for that, know it is XML based)
- Todos should be built into the calendar or some other XML based standard. vToDo or ToDoML.

Right now, all of my extra data in vCard standard that AddressBook uses goes nowhere on my Palm.

BZ

jshea
Feb 11, 2004, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by BwanaZulia
Don't forget to drop Palm a note... I just gave them a little of my mind.

BZ

http://www.palmone.com/us/support/contact/email_support.html

This address is actually for PalmOne, which is the hardware side of the business. I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the Palm Desktop software is made by PalmSource. I filed this as a bug:

Palm One Developer Bug Report (http://www.palmos.com/dev/support/bugs/)

I also complained to PalmOne, as I own one of their devices.

MikeL
Feb 11, 2004, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by lajocaab
Device Size:
8” x 5.0” x .65” (±15oz)
± 1/2 size of a 17” PowerBook
± 2x size of a Palm T3 or an iPod
± size of a DVD movie case
small enough to hold with one hand by the bezel (.5” bezel on the sides)

You wrote all that up and didn't even pay attention to the one single most obvious lesson there was to be learned from Newton?!

It doesn't matter what a PDA does if it doesn't fit in your pocket!

G4scott
Feb 11, 2004, 09:04 AM
This just goes to show how stupid Palm really is. You can't just ignore the Mac platform these days like you could in the 90's. You should at least offer basic Mac support for your products. Heck, even Canon points out that the FireWire port on their newest printer is specifically designed for Mac users. Palm needs to seriously reconsider this move, because they'll for sure get tons of complaints about it.

iJed
Feb 11, 2004, 09:14 AM
Its time for an Apple PDA now. If you look at the alternatives you realise just how terrible they are...

hughdogg
Feb 11, 2004, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by deejemon
Why should any Mac user ever buy a Palm device ever again?

Because unfortunately some of us Mac users also have to (are chained to) work on PC's at the office. And as much as I'd like to buy an Apple PDA, or Super iPod with PDA functions, or the iSlate as mentioned earlier, I don't think it would work with both my home Mac, and my work PC, like my Tungsten T2 does very nicely. (See iPod - one or the other, but not both - and if by some chance the device did work with both, the Mac community would be screaming about how stupid it was for Apple to do that, because it doesn't drive Mac computer sales). And I don't want to buy a PocketPC, for a multitide of reason - sync problems, Office docs losing formatting, wmv, etc.

I agree with the general concensus that it is really unfortunate that PalmOne doesn't want to continue Mac development. Maybe they could release their existing Mac software to the open source community, and let them continue development. Would seem like a good fit given Apple's committment to open source software.

Cheers,
hughdogg

AirUncleP
Feb 11, 2004, 09:30 AM
Hey Palm...er excuse me...PalmOne...Nice stock price. I believe the IPO price went up to $130 and now it's at $10.

Awimoway
Feb 11, 2004, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by jrothman
Wow -- a lot of irrelevant pie-in-the-sky nonesense in this forum. This is bad, and 'screw you, Palm, I want my imaginary Apple iSlate' is not a meaningful response. On the macro level, this is really bad for Apple in the enterprise, where people really do use PDAs. The idea that 'nobody uses them' that Steve seems to have comes, IMO, from the fact that he doesn't think in the business space, where everybody uses them -- and where PocketPCs serve as big arguments for using PCs. This makes every heavy PDA user locked-in to the PC platform until they give up their PDA.
<p>
The iPod will never be a PDA: where's the input? the external devices? the third-party software? Parachute is a far cry from Documents-To-Go. And though the P900 is a very cool device, it is hugely expensive. A Palm is $100; Symbian phones and Treos are way more expensive. You can't really blame Palm -- the reason there are so many apparently active users in their forums is that Palm sync has never worked well under OS X, is my guess. Apple has failed to facilitate them and has never taken iSync seriously for PDAs.
<p>
I hope this is a wake-up call to Apple to seriously develop iSync and the iPIM applications, and to make them robust alternative to Palm desktop. Improvements have been needed for a long while now, and lack of a Microsofot Exchange-like app is a large part of what keeps companies from adopting Mac OS. Let's see some changes in software.

Thank you for the well-stated dose of reality. :)

The really sad thing is that most of Palm's original employees and creators were former Apple employees and shared in the Silicon Valley-based battle for alternatives to the Redmond monolith.

But once again Apple's too-small market share gets it in trouble as another major developer decides it's not worth the expense of developing for it. Although iSync does support syncing to Palm PDAs, it requires Palm Desktop, and although Apple is often content to let third-party companies provide necessary enterprise solutions (consider how they let Virtual PC slip through their fingers), my hope is that in order to maintain iSync's functionality, Apple itself will provide a solution. Because telling prospective enterprise customers that they have to pay $40 more to use the company PDA is really unacceptable.

I, for one, will probably continue to use Palm OS devices because it's still the best PDA out there. But it's just one more reason why I feel like I pay an almost unreasonably high premium for the privilege of using a Mac.

rpkrajewski
Feb 11, 2004, 09:33 AM
Gee, if Apple is going to stay out of the Palm-like PDA business, that doesn't mean they wouldn't support Palm Synching. In fact, I think that they'd want to still support Palm synching, just like they don't make mobile phones but strongly support them in iSync (and Address Book even, where you can send and received SMSes).

My wife is using iSync with her Handspring Visor, and it is pain to set up because of the need to install the Palm desktop which is showing its age and is only really there for synching purposes. It works just fine though.

Apple might as well take over the whole assembly on the PC side if Palm isn't going to support it. These things would help:

- Palm moving to SyncML
- Palm giving access Apple access to the Mac Palm Desktop source code so they can do standard synching, and keep support for 3rd parry conduits as well.

Lord Bodak
Feb 11, 2004, 09:45 AM
I upgraded from an m100 to a Tungsten T last year, and now I'm glad I did, since it looks like my future options are pretty slim.

Palm Desktop for Mac was really a piece of junk anyway. But throwing away a whole class of users is stupid, especially when your primary competition in the market is Microsoft and you KNOW they aren't gonna do us any favors.

johnpaul191
Feb 11, 2004, 10:13 AM
but iSync still currently requires palm desktop/conduit manager to set up the hotsyncing and to upload files to the palm, right? i have to be honest, i barely use my palm these days.... having all my phone numbers in my phone and i have been using the phone's calendar. if bitPim could isync i would be set i guess.
then again there is a reason i never upgraded my Palm past my IIIxe. i bought that as my 4th palm pilot when it first came out. since then i have felt like there was less need for me to have one, since it always seems a decent (palm?) smart phone was right around the corner. i guess since my phone can store an address book, calendar, memopad (to do list, shopping list), web browse, check email, bla bla bla i am finding less and less need for my Palm as a device that's always in my pocket/bag. Text entry through T9 is not grafitti, but it's not so bad. there are a lot of fun Palm apps i miss having on board 24/7 but i guess at some point i'll have a better phone and people will start writing apps for it. i would LOVE to see the Palm OS and it's developers get into more cell phones, but i think the carriers still think that they can make money by selling users a small selection of ringtones and crappy applications. wow, maybe i really do miss my palm? too bad Verizon dumped Palm-OS phones (the kyocera one) for the M$ ones.

johnpaul191
Feb 11, 2004, 10:17 AM
oh yeah, i will say till iCal came out and address book got up to speed, the Palm desktop was a great free application for handling that stuff on your Mac. let alone the fact that it could sync with the Palm pilot, Palm made a good choice when they bought that app. their old inhouse version wasn't as clean, but that was back in the OS 9 days and i can't even remember who the current desktop was initially made by. Palm desktop is still not bad, i just favor the onboard Apple apps.

scat999999
Feb 11, 2004, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Poff
iSync works flawlessly on my Palm, but I´ve only got a zire.

jacobweber
Feb 11, 2004, 10:27 AM
The only good part of this is that Missing Sync will soon support Palms. Since HotSync no longer works on my OS 10.3.2 machine, and Palm doesn't seem to care, this might be the only way I can get my Palm to sync again.

micvog
Feb 11, 2004, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by jrothman
I hope this is a wake-up call to Apple to seriously develop iSync and the iPIM applications

I totally agree. It would seem to me that being able to share your PIM data across phones, PDAs, etc. is an integral part of the "digital hub" and Apple has dropped the ball in supporting new devices. I recently bought a new phone from Verizon and they didn't offer a single one on Apple's list of compatible phones (I ended up with the LG VX6000) and many of the new Palms (e.g. Tungsten E) are not fully supported.

snahabed
Feb 11, 2004, 10:35 AM
This is exactly why I wish Apple would release a next-generation smartphone. I agree with Jobs that standalone PDA's are over. If I remember his quote, he merely stated that all of the functionality is moving to phones.

But after many attempts, smartphones are STILL really inadequate. I would say the Treo 600 is the best of the bunch, but it is still based on the atrocious (and apparently anti-Mac) Palm OS.

I know, I am the millionth person to wish for this, and there is no indication that it will ever happen. But, like the iPod was to portable music, I really think there is a huge gap in this market. A stylish, hard drive based phone unit that iSyncs to iCal, Address, Mail, Safari Bookmarks... Bluetooth, etc. it just seems all in place. Maybe it could stream that mobile quicktime standard... I guess none of this is revolutionary, but I think Apple could do it so much better than Palm and MS. Now with number portability, there isn't even a huge problem if Apple can only partner with one provider. As a matter of fact, I think it would be a huge boon for a service provider, which would get tons of switches from us devoted insane Apple people :)

Wishful thinking, but I am over PalmOne. Awful support, and AWFUL operating system.

micvog
Feb 11, 2004, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by snahabed
A stylish, hard drive based phone unit that iSyncs to iCal, Address, Mail, Safari Bookmarks...

If you want a hard-drive based phone, let it be a PowerPhone (ala PowerMac line).

All I want is a small, lightweight flip phone that syncs my address book and calendar flawlessly using bluetooth and that has a clean, simple and intuitive interface. That should be the iPhone (or even ePhone). I don't need a camera... an AAC player... or a built-in GameBoy.

I can understand why Apple doesn't want to manufacture a phone... but couldn't they at least team up with Sony, LG, Samsung, Nokia, etc. to get full iSync functionality in 3rd party phones?

Oh... and it has to be CDMA. :D None of the three GSM providers in my area cover my work location.

geeyesgee
Feb 11, 2004, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by snahabed
This is exactly why I wish Apple would release a next-generation smartphone. ... A stylish, hard drive based phone unit that iSyncs to iCal, Address, Mail, Safari Bookmarks... Bluetooth, etc. it just seems all in place.

And don't forget the ability to connect to the iTunes Music Store remotely and wirelessly! iPod moving towards cell phone/PDA/digiCam would make huge business sense for Apple.

snahabed
Feb 11, 2004, 11:06 AM
I think the iPod mini drives would be perfect for a phone. Actually, not a bad basic form either.

We could go back and forth all day about the details... candybar vs. flip, keyboard vs. Ink, color vs. iPod screen, camera vs. none.... how would battery life be, how big would it be, basic vs. power functionality, have iPod functionality, etc. I just think there are huge strides to be made in this market (that is, the smartphone market, not the dead PDA market)... and it is clear that PocketPC, Palm, and Symbian blow huge chunks :)

Again, this is pretty much at the bottom of the rumor pile, but it just seems like phone/PDA companies are dropping the ball in innovation and interoperability with Mac systems.

ThorPrime
Feb 11, 2004, 11:10 AM
I've used a palm for 5 years and had 3 different models, but it looks like I won't be getting another.

It's true that if all you use a PDA for is contacts and date book, that you'de be better off with an iPod, but they can do so much more.
I've used mine as an eBook Reader, MP3 player, GameBoy (NesEM baby), Movie player (mmplayer), note taker, and so much more...
The PDA is not dead, it is just moving into the one handed laptop area...

I hope apple builds iSync support for cobalt, I would really hate to pay more $$ for a third party solution, just becuase i use a mac, no matter how good that solution is.

Fukui
Feb 11, 2004, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by BwanaZulia

- Contacts should be Vcards
- Memos should be XML based
- Calendars events should be iCal (forgot the open standard for that, know it is XML based)
- Todos should be built into the calendar or some other XML based standard. vToDo or ToDoML.

Right now, all of my extra data in vCard standard that AddressBook uses goes nowhere on my Palm.

BZ
Exactly. For the life of me, I don't understand why H/W maufactures dont open source thier drivers...I mean, if people port thier drivers to support everything under the sun, what does it matter to them? More sales? Oh no!!

geerlingguy
Feb 11, 2004, 11:18 AM
No emoticon can express the feelings of anger I have towards Palm right now! :mad: :mad: :mad: !

Moonlight
Feb 11, 2004, 11:58 AM
Send them a note, saying we want the new OS to sync witht the Mac !!!


http://www.palmsource.com/contact/write_os.html


Maybe if they get enough letters ?

BobVB
Feb 11, 2004, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by Moonlight
Send them a note, saying we want the new OS to sync witht the Mac !!!


http://www.palmsource.com/contact/write_os.html


Maybe if they get enough letters ?

Oh and if you are getting the Palm email product ads, go to the bottom link and unsubscribe. They ask for feedback as to why you are quitting and what they could do to keep you interested. Go tell them!

synergy
Feb 11, 2004, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by prismfinder
Developers always look at Apple's 5% marketshare and think it's not worth building apps for.

This is a big mistake. I'd be willing to bet that a much higher percentage of Mac users use PDAs than PC users. In fact, I know few Mac users that don't use PDAs.

Personally, however, I hope this just means Sony will move in on the Mac space by providing Mac support for the Clie.

I think the biggest mistake in ignoring the mac market is ignoring the trend setters. The Mac platform sets the trends for PCs. USB was made popular on the Mac, video editing for the masses was made popular on the Mac.

Just like the luxury cars of the world add the fancy features slowly those features trickle down to the masses. By software and hardware makers ignoring that aspect they write themselves out of existence.

Yes Apple has 3% of the marketshare, but their mindshare is much greater.

tychay
Feb 11, 2004, 12:45 PM
The open XML format for iCal is called "iCalendar" I believe it was used for a couple years before iCal popularized it.

A number of people are confusing PalmOne (hardware) with PalmSource (software). If you're going to blame PalmOne, you might as well blame Sony also.

This definitely sounds shortsighted--a lot of innovation in the Palm world has come from Mac people: Mark/Space, pedit, HackMaster, Palm Buddy, BrainForest, Documents To Go, etc. Many of the first category apps for the Palm were developed on the Mac because the development environment and structure is reminiscent of early Macintoshes. Heck they both favored CodeWarrior back then. I'm sure that the number of Mac-toting Palm users is much greater than Apple's marketshare or even % userbase. Especially since Palm is strong in the same countries that Apple is and you can count on a Mac user to probably think twice before buying a PocketPC.

In any case, most reports say that in the cell phone market and the handheld PDA market the long term trend is for a free operating system (Linux). I don't believe that Apple's innovative UI has much to offer here, and especially when it will have to compete with free. Even Microsoft is seeing encroachment. MS, I can understand, but Palm's lack of support for standards is... disheartening.

This action shouldn't be a surprise to the Mac world: Palm Desktop for Mac stuck on 5.0, lack of large file support in HotSync (keeping a lot of Mac owners from purchasing the Tapwave Zodiac), no IP synching, and, most egregiously, the fact that POSS (Palm OS Simulator and the sequel to POSE) doesn't support Macintosh. Apple was the company that made Acorn (ARM) what it is when they developed the Newton. Even the cruddy Symbian OS migrated to a Java emulator a long time ago...

I guess some employees of Be still hold a grudge that Apple bought out NeXT instead of them.* :) Then again, when a company starts outsourcing its core competency out to India, we could just blame the whole thing on the fact they have too many morons steering the ship.

I noticed that PalmSource is switching to an open-source toolchain. At least then a decent Palm simulator will come to the Mac by way of the Linux world.

Then again, even WindRiver (the largest embedded software company) has decided to do a 180 degree and adopt Linux. So I guess the open-source writing in on the wall. First Linux will eat the Windows CE userbase, then the cell phones, and finally the PDA market.

* I could argue here that if Larry Slotnik is correct by saying that the new features inherited from BeOS (multimedia, multithreading, ARM native implementation) make the Palm so different that PalmSource can be troubled to make a Mac port of a tiny little driver (HotSync). Well then, I guess Apple must have made a good decision because if you can't port a PDA to the Mac now, then how could you have expected to port an entire operating system to replace the Mac eight years ago?

mkrowland
Feb 11, 2004, 12:47 PM
As long as iSync and iCal still sync with my Tungsten C, I could care less. Palm desktop software has been clunky since I updated to OSX years ago.

I say adieu, Palm desktop.

shadowself
Feb 11, 2004, 12:48 PM
This is really stupid of Palm to do.

So virtually the only platform they will directly support is various forms of the Windows OS. Isn't this their major competitor? Isn't their maket share among Windows users falling like a rock? Isn't the usage of Palm devices (among PDA users) a higher percent in Mac OS users than in Windows OS users (i.e., well over half of Mac OS users who have a PDA are Palm users while less than half of Windows users who have a PDA are Palm users)?

If these are all true, then Palm has finally set itself up to fail completely.

I am a Palm user (have a Tungsten T and was considering a T3 or getting whatever the follow on will be).

The ultimate hald held in my opinion? Look at the mobile devices in the old Sci-Fi TV series "Earth, Final Conflict". With the flexible screens that are just starting to get out of the labs those might actually be available within the next ten years -- or maybe (hopefully?) Apple is working on them in their lab right now.

Docrjm
Feb 11, 2004, 12:50 PM
Have used four diff palms to date, if they no longer provide integration with mac, i will prob no longer ugrade palm hardware.
This is very narrowminded of palm.:mad:

tex210
Feb 11, 2004, 12:52 PM
something wicked this way comes...
If third party support is required to get a device working, said device will not sell very well in our community. I was looking forward to a treo gsm, but this pretty much kills that, even if it is still contains the older hotsync/os5.... Palm is saying future (cobalt(where it matters the most)) development for Apple is dead. Step up Jobs... we want our NEWton!

tychay
Feb 11, 2004, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by mkrowland
As long as iSync and iCal still sync with my Tungsten C, I could care less. Palm desktop software has been clunky since I updated to OSX years ago.

I say adieu, Palm desktop.

If you read the whole article you will see it covers both Palm Desktop and HotSync. So you and I are SOL if we were to upgrade our Tungsten|C's to Cobalt unless you go third party or Apple steps up.

The article was written by Ed Hardy, a mac user (or used to be), so I trust him to get it right.

Another juicy bit of irony is I wonder where Palm got the idea of renaming Palm OS 5 "Garnet" and Palm OS 6 "Cobalt". I understand why Apple had to do it with Jaguar and Panther (because by they couldn't very well call it "mac oh-ess ten eleven" and "mac oh-ess ten twelve", but whose marketting coattails are they riding on anyway?

First the letter X is in vogue and now it is strange codenames to replace numbers, I can't wait to see what Microsoft calls Windows Longhorn when it finally comes out...

Anyone remember the MacWorld keynote where Jobs brought out Palm saying, "We've been working closely with these guys!" Or have we forgotten that along with voice print logging in, the Cube and the Apple Studio Display?

Take care,

terry

jrv3034
Feb 11, 2004, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by BobVB
serendipity strikes again. I just fired off a feedback to Handspring/Palm last night that because they have chosen to drop Graffiti input for their PDA smart phones I will be looking elsewhere for one.

With keyboard input only I will ALWAYS have to look at the device to enter information - with handwriting recognition I don't.

My next PDA will be a smartphone and it will be a GSM/GPRS one with bluetooth, handwriting recognition (Graffiti, Jot etc) and customizable programming (Palm would be great but I guess Java will be ok). The Sony Ericsson P900 (http://www.sonyericsson.com/us/spg.jsp?page=start&Redir=template%3DPS1%26B%3Die%26PID%3D10101%26LM%3DPSM_V%26gal%3D105) fits the bill so far and Palm isn't even in the running.

Have you checked out Samsung's SPH-i500?

http://www.samsungusa.com/cgi-bin/nabc/product/b2c_product_detail.jsp?eUser=&prod_id=SPH-I500

I agree that Graffiti was best. I loved my Kyocera 6035 Palm/phone combo. But it died recently, and now I have a Treo 300. I wish I could afford the i500, though.

cubist
Feb 11, 2004, 01:15 PM
A third-party app will only sell to a small portion of an already small community... which means not very many sales, which means not much reward for making a good program.

I have an Audiovox Thera (PocketPC 2002). I got PocketMac 3.1, which worked, barely. It took 7 minutes to sync, vs. 20 seconds on the PC. It syncs with Entourage or iCal. There are numerous bugs.

All of you who are putting down Palm Desktop, get some experience with iCal first. iCal is a toy - the to-do list is painfully clunky, only offers a couple of sorting options, and crashes from time to time. Tasks can only be on one calendar (category). The calendar didn't support timezones before 1.5.2, I haven't tried it since then. Sure, it looks pretty.

Anyone who can organize their life with iCal has a pretty simple life, and doesn't need a PDA.

One other point - handwriting recognition on the PocketPC is not as good as Palm's... but the best handwriting recognition out there is - believe it or not! - Graffiti on the Newton 2100.

BobVB
Feb 11, 2004, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by jrv3034
Have you checked out Samsung's SPH-i500?

http://www.samsungusa.com/cgi-bin/nabc/product/b2c_product_detail.jsp?eUser=&prod_id=SPH-I500

I agree that Graffiti was best. I loved my Kyocera 6035 Palm/phone combo. But it died recently, and now I have a Treo 300. I wish I could afford the i500, though.

Nice, but no Bluetooth and Sprint only. I mean my needs for the perfect phone so small - GSM/GPRS, bluetooth (gotta have a wireless headset), Grafitti and Palm OS that will sync with a Mac. I don't need a camera, MP3 player or the like.

david_r_p
Feb 11, 2004, 01:45 PM
I don't even use a Palm device (but my wife does), but I am starting to get a sinking feeling about our chosen platform. How many relevant pieces of hardware and software can we afford to lose before we lose all viability? Anyone remember the Amiga? I don't want to have to purchase $40.00 third party apps just to do something as simple as syncing a Palm. This is so frustrating...

lewdvig
Feb 11, 2004, 01:59 PM
If it isn't clear yet, the best mobile OS is Symbian. Screw palm and MS. A small series 60 (or even just SyncML compatible) phone and iPod is all anyone needs.

Chip NoVaMac
Feb 11, 2004, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by lewdvig
If it isn't clear yet, the best mobile OS is Symbian. Screw palm and MS. A small series 60 (or even just SyncML compatible) phone and iPod is all anyone needs.

What about syncing with the Mac? Aren't we back to relying on third-party support?

And will Sprint buy into it? Still waiting for them to support Bluetooth officially.

Trimix
Feb 11, 2004, 03:21 PM
i must be getting on in age, but after trying almost every handheld device and after having been deserted by HP and their decision to abandon the 200LX, i have moved over to a nokia communicator and my trusted filofax - and guess what - this combo is the perfect office on the road
screw palm for not addressing mac users' needs

michaelb
Feb 11, 2004, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Moonlight
Send them a note...
http://www.palmsource.com/contact/write_os.html
Maybe if they get enough letters ?

Absolutely right. We cannot rely on Palm picking up on the anger expressed in the forums.

I've sent the letter below. I urge everyone concerned about this issue to send something similar. And tell your friends to tell their friends to do the same: the backlash may then come to their attention.


Dear PalmSource,

I am extremely disappointed to read that you no longer intend to support the Mac OS with your future products.

As a Palm user since 1996, having owned six iterations of them up to my current T3 and recommended them to countless numbers of buyers (both Mac and PC users), I feel that my support of the Palm platform may now be drawing to an end.

I am aware that 3rd party solution(s) may be available to provide the missing synch support, just as they exist for using Pocket PC devices on a Mac. However, by not providing "out of the box" support for the Mac platform, you are sending a clear message to both the press and the Mac-using community that you believe the platform no longer worth your attention.

I strongly urge you to reconsider this short-sighted and potentially damaging move. You may not be aware that many of us Mac users do actually talk to PC users and influence their PDA buying decisions. To jettison the minority Mac platform because of its low marketshare is one thing, but to cause them to become disgusted advocates for competing products is another.

Please reconsider your strategy.

Sincerely,

Michael ----------
Palm user since '96

rog
Feb 11, 2004, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Lancetx
I did the same thing a couple of months ago too. Between my BT phone and iPod, I didn't need my Palm anymore either. This news just reinforces the fact that I made the right decision by getting rid of it. Good riddance PalmOne...

Well, a lot of us actually know how to use a PDA for more than contacts and calendars. For instance, with mine, I sure the web, do email, enter expenses and sync with Quicken with PocketQuicken, create documents and sync them to the desktop with Wordsmith and Documents to Go, view photos that were on my Mac using Splash Photo. Ditch your phone, get a Treo instead.

Without native Mac support, Palm developers will stop making mac conduits and mac users will be screwed. Apple is never going to make a PDA because PDAs are going to die and become converged devices like the Treo. After using my Treo a couple days, I would have never gone back to a regular PDA and a cell phone.

Everyone who is upset by this should email Palm, including investor relations. Tell them you are an irate shareholder and you'll be selling off your shares and telling others to do the same. These jerks need to reverse this decision and fast!

If you can't use either major PDA OS with a mac out of the box, that is a huge problem for Apple. iSync is a joke and as it is is still dependent on Palm software. It also doesn't make up for lack of mac specific conduits.

johnpaul191
Feb 11, 2004, 04:26 PM
i guess it doesn't bother me that i may have to use a 3rd party app..... it does bother me that i would have to pay a $40 "Mac tax". The Mac and *Nix users are always subsudizing the windows software we throw away with our scanners, PDAs, printers, cell phone data cables (thanks Verizon!), and whatever else. <P>
That being said i am thankful that SOMEONE makes the devices work on Macs, and deserve some cash for their efforts. Maybe Palm makers or someone will license the app and offer it with the device. I really hope Palm doesnt become as lame as Sony with supporting customers. At least Palm still beats Sony in durability of devices. ARG. I'll NEVER buy a PocketPC, so it's another Palm or scale down to a cell phone. They do have me there.

restiffbard
Feb 11, 2004, 04:26 PM
this is just utterly sad. I was actually thinking about getting a new palm when the next generation rolls out later this year. I was. I'm not now.

The number one reason I even bought a palm in the first place was the out of box compatibility with Apple.

I suppose I'll just get a memo pad at the grocery when I need an upgrade.

Chip NoVaMac
Feb 11, 2004, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by rog


Without native Mac support, Palm developers will stop making mac conduits and mac users will be screwed. Apple is never going to make a PDA because PDAs are going to die and become converged devices like the Treo. After using my Treo a couple days, I would have never gone back to a regular PDA and a cell phone.

...

If you can't use either major PDA OS with a mac out of the box, that is a huge problem for Apple. iSync is a joke and as it is is still dependent on Palm software. It also doesn't make up for lack of mac specific conduits.

Maybe you have a point. Maybe Apple should (if they haven't already) be working on a iPod/phone product that would give us a PDA also.

If the marketshare is so small for Mac apps, they (Palm) should be able to pay for our sync software. I should not have to pay extra for a mainstream application to make a mainstream product work.

michaelb
Feb 11, 2004, 05:23 PM
As an update to my previous post to the PalmSource feedback link (which may just go unread by anyone of importance), I've also sent a letter directly to Mr Larry Slotnick, who is the Chief Products Officer and the one who stated at the conference that PalmSource isn't developing a Mac version of the Palm Desktop.

Poking around, I found the following email address is probably his (it hasn't bounced in a few hours, so is most likely okay). If you are concerned about this issue, please send a politely worded protest to him.

larry.slotnick@palmsource.com



Larry Slotnick
Chief Products Officer
PalmSource

Dear Larry,

I am extremely disappointed to read that you no longer intend to support the Mac OS with your future products.

As a Palm user since 1996, having owned six iterations of them up to my current T3 and recommended them to countless numbers of buyers (both Mac and PC users), I feel that my support of the Palm platform may now be drawing to an end.

I am aware that 3rd party solution(s) may be available to provide the missing synch support, just as they exist for using Pocket PC devices on a Mac. However, by not providing "out of the box" support for the Mac platform, you are sending a clear message to both the press and the Mac-using community that you believe the platform no longer worth your attention.

I strongly urge you to reconsider this short-sighted and potentially damaging move. You may not be aware that many of us Mac users do actually talk to PC users and influence their PDA buying decisions. To jettison the minority Mac platform because of its low marketshare is one thing, but to cause them to become disgusted advocates for competing products is another.

Please reconsider your strategy.

Sincerely,

Michael -------
Palm user since '96

7on
Feb 11, 2004, 06:32 PM
I dunno what you're smoking but I use iCal in correlation with my Palm daily!

http://www2.truman.edu/~jps137/web/ical.jpg

However I still think the address book syncage could be better done. I never really liked Palm desktop a whole lot, but my Palm was the first device that changed my life. Being able to write things down and stuff. Then it automatically balances my checkbook too. Since my Palm does everything I need it to, it's unlikely that I'll upgrade to cobalt anytime soon (still running 4.1 here). I've always hated the Windows CE/Pocket 2003 PDAs. You could be running like 15 apps and not know about them! I like how with my Palm only one app can be open at once.

Hopefully 10.4 won't break Palm Desktop 4.1's functionality.

DaBuzz
Feb 11, 2004, 06:54 PM
So I read the article...I didn't see anything revolutionary in the new Palm OS. I own a T3 with a 128Mb Expansion Card. It comes with a File Manager utility, and combined, I don't see anything that knocks my socks off in the new OS.

Of course, it'll be interesting to see what kind of hardware PalmOne puts this into.

I think PalmSource will offer Mac synchronization, once the hardware comes out.

I guess my biggest question for PalmSOURCE (caps mine) is: what are they trying to accomplish with this new OS? Have they really taken the time to evaluate what the PDA market wants/needs, and have they REALLY taken a good look (with PalmOne) at to what OS their customers are using? I can't think of a must-have feature that I can't already do with my current setup - create/edit Word & Excel documents, sync contacts, calendar, Acrobat, voice memos, Bluetooth...am I missing anything, besides 802.11??

I think spinning off Palm into PalmOne and PalmSource was a very, very poor business decision, and one that will come back to haunt them.

As the hardware from PalmOne becomes available, I think they'll be pressured into Mac development.

Just my .02.

rdowns
Feb 11, 2004, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by prismfinder
Developers always look at Apple's 5% marketshare and think it's not worth building apps for.

This is a big mistake. I'd be willing to bet that a much higher percentage of Mac users use PDAs than PC users. In fact, I know few Mac users that don't use PDAs.

Personally, however, I hope this just means Sony will move in on the Mac space by providing Mac support for the Clie.

Companies not supporting or dropping Mac support sucks but they obviously believe it to be a good business decision. No one drops a platform if they make money developing for and supporting it.

Let's say the entire universe of PDA users is 1000. 50 are Apple users. 950 are Windows users.

Let's say 90% of Apple users are PDA users. Let's say only 20% of Windows users are PDA users. Who do you develop for? 45 users or 190 users?

What if 30% or 40% of Windows users are PDA users? Sadly, the numbers just don't add up for the Mac.

dragonball
Feb 11, 2004, 08:17 PM
If Palm doesn't offer support for Mac OS X then why would you buy a Palm they offer nearly as many options as the Pocket PC so for Mac users what is the appeal?:confused:

bignumbers
Feb 11, 2004, 09:13 PM
I'm sure Apple will provide the support. iSync is a core technology for Apple, and with Apple already providing a calendar and contact manager with the OS (despite being anemic products) I was always expecting Apple to take it over.

The way it came out was sad though - instead there should have been a joint announcement that support for PalmOS 6 would be integrated in with a future version of OS X. I'll bet by the time 10.4 ships this fall (before or around the same time as PalmOS 6/Cobalt) Apple will have it ready.

ephramz
Feb 11, 2004, 10:43 PM
OK, people, let's move past denial, anger, and resentment and onto acceptance! ;)

Let's talk about alternatives! Does anyone have experience with using either Windoze CE PDA's or Sony Clie PDA's with MissingSync? Can it still integrate with AddressBook and iCal? I like having one system for my addresses and calendar, rather than one for my PDA, another for my email, iChat, and everything else.

If MissingSync can integrate this seemlessly, it would actually expand our options to other PDA's without sacrificing system wide address and calendar integration. The only thing I still used Palm Desktop for was the Memo's. Hopefully Docs-to-go will still work with MissingSync.

My 2nd Handspring Visor, which was abandoned as a product by Handpsring soon after I bought it, just gave out, so I'm having to think about what to replace it with, if anything! Maybe I'll go back to the 79˘ notebooks! They lasted a lot longer than the PDA's!

MoparShaha
Feb 12, 2004, 12:44 AM
I'm taking this pretty personally, as well I should. I've been a loyal Palm customer for years, and I'm pretty damn upset. Like many, I have been anxiously waiting OS 6 (Cobalt) for quite some time. I've been holding off a new PDA purchase until its arrival. No more. I will not buy another Palm product. This is not a rash reaction. I've thought about it a great deal. I'd rather give my money to Microsoft. At least a lack of Mac support is expected from them. They are, in a way, the known enemy. Palm, on the other hand, has been a trusted friend of Apple for years, and now like Brutus, they have stabbed us in the back. I'd rather support an old enemy than give patronage to a friend who has betrayed me. PocketPC, here I come.

deejemon
Feb 12, 2004, 01:25 AM
*

deejemon
Feb 12, 2004, 01:41 AM
*

tychay
Feb 12, 2004, 03:51 AM
Originally posted by rdowns
Sadly, the numbers just don't add up for the Mac.

1) The Mac userbase is small but guaranteed and zealous--very few will buy a PocketPC. Apple did fine on exactly this, or have we too soon forgot the early 90's? These are the exact sort of people PalmSource should be catering to as they meet encroachment in their marketshare due to PocketPC (mostly the Dell Axim and other low end models). Read the forums, you'll see that most of us see it as a simple choice between "Palm" and "do without".

2) Palm makes a lot more than the Desktop and Hotsync. In fact, these are minor products well outside their core. Their core is the Palm OS which doesn't care if you are on a Mac or Windows or Linux. In fact, if Palm adopted more open standards, they'd see that immediately.

3) Apple and Microsoft Mac BU both show a willingness to take over the Palm Desktop work through iCal/Address Book and Entourage. All Palm needs to do is maintain the HotSync.

4) I'm pretty sure that the Palm marketshare numbers of Mac users are much greater than 5%.

5) Though a small minority have replaced their PDA with an iPod. Apple has clearly placed it by not allowing data entry and focusing it on a single purpose (music). It isn't a multipurpose like a computer and PDA. Besides, these numbers are tiny to the vast many users who have converged to the cell phone as a replacement for their PDA.

#5 is especially salient. The Mac is pretty much the only computer on the market with great SyncML standards support. If Palm's Mac marketshare numbers have dropped significantly (as they must have for them to decide to drop the Mac platform support), then I think it is just a taste of what they're going to face in the PC and enterprise markets...

Take care,

terry

tychay
Feb 12, 2004, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by DaBuzz
So I read the article...I didn't see anything revolutionary in the new Palm OS.

There isn't anything "new". After all, we're talking about a handheld here. Heck, have any of you ever tried developing for a Symbian? Try to think of the most moronic way of doing something and odds are that's the solution Symbian stumbled on. I'm astounded that most of todays cell phones even work.

The main new feature is multitasking and more multimedia support. Plus they've rolled in some features that their licensees have done into the OS (HVGA for instance). Not sure if it'll be so important right now, but it'll be nice to be able to do two things at once on my Palm without resorting to hacks.

rdowns
Feb 12, 2004, 04:21 AM
Originally posted by ephramz
OK, people, let's move past denial, anger, and resentment and onto acceptance! ;)

Let's talk about alternatives! Does anyone have experience with using either Windoze CE PDA's or Sony Clie PDA's with MissingSync? Can it still integrate with AddressBook and iCal? I like having one system for my addresses and calendar, rather than one for my PDA, another for my email, iChat, and everything else.

If MissingSync can integrate this seemlessly, it would actually expand our options to other PDA's without sacrificing system wide address and calendar integration. The only thing I still used Palm Desktop for was the Memo's. Hopefully Docs-to-go will still work with MissingSync.

My 2nd Handspring Visor, which was abandoned as a product by Handpsring soon after I bought it, just gave out, so I'm having to think about what to replace it with, if anything! Maybe I'll go back to the 79˘ notebooks! They lasted a lot longer than the PDA's!


I use a Clie with MissingSync. Works great on the Mac and I also sync to my Windows box at work. I then, on a weekly basis, export my Palm contacts and import inot Address Book. iSync keeps my contacts up to date on my iPod. I don't use iCal.

Bad Beaver
Feb 12, 2004, 04:50 AM
I mean, who cares?

-I never got the point of using a palmOS device anyway. They are too small to really write upon, they do not understand english... what they are truely good for are PIM functions.
-PocketPC (or whatever it's called now) is just a win desktop shoved into a small screen for win-desktop-enslaved-lemmings who won't even notice how much the "concept" sucks.
-I use my Newton 2100 for all my writing on campus. Because it works (it understands english!OMG!) and suits my needs. Because the OS is well constructed and does not get in the way. Because it has a decent battery and decent real screen estate.
-I use my SE P800 as a PIM, and it serves me quite well despite the nagging setbacks of a 1st Gen. device.

Palm will just wake up soon noticing that their market has vanished, and all they have left is an ugly, expensive pseudo-phone. True phone manufaturers have better phones.
There is no need for an Apple PDA. There is room for smartphones (but as I said, SE and Motorola make good phones already, maybe Apple is the only company that could surpass them, see the iPod effect where Apple took Sony's domain) and room for slates (this means usable size, 8-10" screen, no smaller no bigger, a battery that is worth the name, no 4-6h joke). Palm is loosing its habitat, and soon the fitter devices will have devoured the rest of them. Just my 2 cents.

aswitcher
Feb 12, 2004, 04:50 AM
I saw this and saw some of you commented there. Can anyone comment on this guys reliability?

http://www.macnet2.com/more.php?id=455_0_1_0

Palm’s “No Mac Support” policy with Cobalt comes just bit too early, what with Apple’s secret ‘smart-PDA' coming

“Apple is about to introduce a new digital device that will combine the best features of every Palm based and Windows based PDA’s currently flooding the market. The problem is, Palm’s announcement that they will no longer produce further upgrades to Palm Desktop For Mac makes it necessary, for the first time ever, for Apple to announce the coming of this new product before it’s ready. –JM”

By John Manzione


Every time I write about Apple’s market share I get lambasted with negative email telling me over and over and over again “market share doesn’t matter!” Perhaps now that PalmSource has decided there is no money in further support for Mac OS X people might begin to “think different”.

Maybe...

...
The timeline for this product is an introduction by July 2004. Hopefully Apple will deliver it sooner now that Palm has gone public with its withdrawal of Mac support.

It will use an OS X-like OS, having full integration with iCal, Mail, Address Book, iSync, etc. It will be QuickTime driven, with support for the new codec’s, including Mpeg-4. The display will offer 65k colors and will be as large as the largest Sony Clie (there's that Clie thing again). The screen will be touch-sensitive, using Ink as the input software. Just imagine the latest Clie (!) with an Apple twist, meaning a whole new design concept, a flip screen, and a keyboard, FireWire, USB and Bluetooth. And it will be hard-drive based, using the same hard drive in that the new iPod mini uses, but I'm told the drive will be bigger. I have no idea what the cost will be, nor do I have any information about the processor, RAM, or anything else. However, it won’t matter if you have a Mac or PC, it supposedly works with both platforms through the introduction of iSync with Windows and an arrangement with Microsoft. (you don't think Apple advertised iLife '04 as being "Microsoft Office for the rest of your life" for nothing, did you?)


...

lajocaab
Feb 12, 2004, 05:39 AM
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by lajocaab
Device Size:
8” x 5.0” x .65” (±15oz)
± 1/2 size of a 17” PowerBook
± 2x size of a Palm T3 or an iPod
± size of a DVD movie case
small enough to hold with one hand by the bezel (.5” bezel on the sides)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

You wrote all that up and didn't even pay attention to the one single most obvious lesson there was to be learned from Newton?!

It doesn't matter what a PDA does if it doesn't fit in your pocket!

--------------
You missed the point of the post. iSlate is not a PDA, not a PVP, not an iPod, not a tablet, nor a Notebook comptuer. It is something more than any of them, yet small enough to take with you wherever you need to go. A device doesn't have to fit in you pocket to be portable. Try carrying a DVD case around with you for a few days. You will see how portable something that size really is.

lajocaab

RowdyBacon
Feb 12, 2004, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by aswitcher
I saw this and saw some of you commented there. Can anyone comment on this guys reliability?

http://www.macnet2.com/more.php?id=455_0_1_0

Hmmm...never heard of him before. Everything he says makes a degree of sense, and the device he describes seems plausible. But until more dependable corroboration surfaces, it's nothing more than a well crafted yarn.

Sure would be nice if true though. I was just on the verge of buying a new Palm. But after this announcement, I'm no longer considering one of their PDA's.

dieselg4
Feb 12, 2004, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by ervinocus
I will beg SJ on my knees to have a MacOs powered version of this hardware:

Samsung NEXiO

http://www.pdabuyersguide.com/nexio_S160.htm

HINT: it has a 800 x 480 points screen!!!

$1249! That's madness . . . why not get a Fujitsu Pseries notebook or soemthing more useful. And the "if you wear a jacket or cargo pants" is a bit of a pander to something a jsut a little to big. I work in the fairly liberal and artsy field of architecture, and I have yet to see someone go into a business meeting donning their swanky new AF cargos . . .

wrldwzrd89
Feb 12, 2004, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by aswitcher
I saw this and saw some of you commented there. Can anyone comment on this guys reliability?

http://www.macnet2.com/more.php?id=455_0_1_0

From what I can gather, this guy seems to be new to the Mac rumors scene. Therefore, I think it's too early to make any judgments on the reliability of his rumors. That doesn't mean that the rumor he published isn't interesting - I find it very interesting since I'd buy such a product if Apple released one.

BobVB
Feb 12, 2004, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by lajocaab
quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------

It doesn't matter what a PDA does if it doesn't fit in your pocket!

--------------
You missed the point of the post. iSlate is not a PDA, not a PVP, not an iPod, not a tablet, nor a Notebook comptuer. It is something more than any of them, yet small enough to take with you wherever you need to go.

Laptops are small enough to take with you where ever you go. The need is for something that can fit in your pocket no matter where you are.

[B]A device doesn't have to fit in you pocket to be portable. Try carrying a DVD case around with you for a few days. You will see how portable something that size really is.

That is an exercise in annoyance for me - anything I have to 'grab' each time I stand up and sit down isn't portable enough - I already have something like that - its called an 'iBook'.

The qualitative size differentation is something small enough to have with you all the time, i.e your clothes are your carrying case e.g. a current cell phone or PDA - vs. something something that requires special intent to keep with you, i.e. pick it up, put it down, remember to pick it up, etc. e.g. a dvd case or your device.

Sorry your device would just be an expensive and very losable toy for me and not what I need.

lajocaab
Feb 12, 2004, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by BobVB
Laptops are small enough to take with you where ever you go. The need is for something that can fit in your pocket no matter where you are.



That is an exercise in annoyance for me - anything I have to 'grab' each time I stand up and sit down isn't portable enough - I already have something like that - its called an 'iBook'.

The qualitative size differentation is something small enough to have with you all the time, i.e your clothes are your carrying case e.g. a current cell phone or PDA - vs. something something that requires special intent to keep with you, i.e. pick it up, put it down, remember to pick it up, etc. e.g. a dvd case or your device.

Sorry your device would just be an expensive and very losable toy for me and not what I need.

------

Although you can carry a PDA or a PVP in your pocket, few people do so on a regular basis. They are simply too big to slip into your pocket & comfortably carry around all day. Most people carry them "outside of a pocket" & "pick them up & put them down". Portable means easy to carry, not necessarily "wearable".

The shift is towards carrying a "smart phone" that has contacts, a calender, & access to the occassional e-mail. The problem is that a smart phone is really too small to comfortably read e-mail & browse the web on a daily basis. It is also too small to comfortably view photos & watch video. It is also too small & underpowered to run simple business applications like Excel, Powerpoint, Filemaker Pro, etc.

Although I use a 4lb, 12" iBook everyday, it is too big & heavy for many situations where I just need to access info or trasport info. The iSlate (8" x 5" & <1 lb.) is designed to fit between the smart phone (that keeps essential info with you all the time) & the notebook computer that is the center piece of the "Digital Hub", & has subsequentially replaced my "desktop" computer.

BobVB
Feb 12, 2004, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by lajocaab
------
Although you can carry a PDA or a PVP in your pocket, few people do so on a regular basis.

What can I say - we obviously live in different worlds. I don't know anyone who doesn't grab their PDA out of their pocket. If they need more then that they carry a laptop. Your proposed iSlate fills no need I personally have and reminds me of the Cube - a product in search of a market.

stimpy13
Feb 12, 2004, 12:20 PM
Ok some of you don't use the palm..great..however understand they in some segments of the business world they are MANDATORY...

As a 3rd year medical student I can tell you that every serious doctor is getting one, pt charting systems are supporting them etc .. they are awsome reference sources.

The problems with palms action is not the lack of hot sync as I fully expect isync to fill this gap.

The problem lies in the many applications on the palm that "sync" with a central DB to update a reference. Apple needs to ensure that palm and pocket PC apps that use this fuctionality have the hooks in OS X that they need to function , without a seperate version of the palm or pocket PC app.

Look we all love our mac but this kind of thing KILLS Apples market share. Apple can do what they like on their own turf but they MUST interoperate with 3rd parties SEAMLESSLY, better then windows if they expect to grow.

This is a crushing blow which means Apple will have to work hard to overcome. Futhermore dog plus world will cover the fact that palm will not support the mac but no one will cover the fact that isync can fill a significant portion of this void.

An Apple PDA is not the answer here. Because many if not all app makers will not support their app on that platform even if it is palm or pocket pc compatible.

I love my mac but more Apple needs to realize that they must beat windows when it comes to 3rd party interactivity.


peace
andrew

Chip NoVaMac
Feb 12, 2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by stimpy13
Ok some of you don't use the palm..great..however understand they in some segments of the business world they are MANDATORY...

As a 3rd year medical student I can tell you that every serious doctor is getting one, pt charting systems are supporting them etc .. they are awsome reference sources.

The problems with palms action is not the lack of hot sync as I fully expect isync to fill this gap.

The problem lies in the many applications on the palm that "sync" with a central DB to update a reference. Apple needs to ensure that palm and pocket PC apps that use this fuctionality have the hooks in OS X that they need to function , without a seperate version of the palm or pocket PC app.

Look we all love our mac but this kind of thing KILLS Apples market share. Apple can do what they like on their own turf but they MUST interoperate with 3rd parties SEAMLESSLY, better then windows if they expect to grow.

This is a crushing blow which means Apple will have to work hard to overcome. Futhermore dog plus world will cover the fact that palm will not support the mac but no one will cover the fact that isync can fill a significant portion of this void.

An Apple PDA is not the answer here. Because many if not all app makers will not support their app on that platform even if it is palm or pocket pc compatible.

I love my mac but more Apple needs to realize that they must beat windows when it comes to 3rd party interactivity.


peace
andrew

You raise a number of good points. The syncing between apps being the most important.

On the other hand I do not support the idea that Apple could not come out with their own PDA that may give the others a run for their money. If Apple does do an PDA, it needs to at least be able to read the data from a Palm PDA. In the best of situations it needs also to read data from the Windows CE system.

If we look at the iPod, it probably should have failed. There were companies that offered more for less. But Apple succeeded in style and execution. They could do the same in PDA's.

stimpy13
Feb 12, 2004, 01:52 PM
Ok perhaps i made myself less then clear..

Apple could come out with a PDA device

BUT

1.)It must be perfectly compatible with palm or pocket PC...no exceptions

2.) when connected to my mac those palm apps must sync and be able to conenct without a single change in the developers code.

if either of the above is NOT true then the problems will ALWAYS be blamed on Apple so long as the product functions under windows XP..even if the real problem is with the palm app.

Which brings me back to my original point...this is a huge burden for Apple but its the ONLY way to make the device work.

The iPod is an excellent example. The ipod has been succesful BECAUSE it works better on BOTH mac and windows esp with itunes....any PDA will have to follow the same path which is significantly harder due to multifunctionality of a PDA

i suspect that jobs problem with PDAs have something to do with these tough issue.


andrew

yakirz
Feb 12, 2004, 02:27 PM
I want simplicity, and as few devices as possible. Sometimes these goals are in conflict; how do you create a "simple" 20GB-40GB smartphone with a camera, BT, 802.11g, full iSync compatibility, large color screen, etc.? I want one device to make my calls, read my e-mail and web sites, e-books and memos, store my photos and music, and have some decent games, and I want it to weigh < 8 oz. Oh, and rugged with good screen protection!

Basically I want a G4 iBook in a phone, so I don't have to carry a laptop! I'd prefer it to be Aqua-based, but I could deal with Linux.

wrldwzrd89
Feb 12, 2004, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by stimpy13
Ok perhaps i made myself less then clear..

Apple could come out with a PDA device

BUT

1.)It must be perfectly compatible with palm or pocket PC...no exceptions

2.) when connected to my mac those palm apps must sync and be able to conenct without a single change in the developers code.

if either of the above is NOT true then the problems will ALWAYS be blamed on Apple so long as the product functions under windows XP..even if the real problem is with the palm app.

Which brings me back to my original point...this is a huge burden for Apple but its the ONLY way to make the device work.

The iPod is an excellent example. The ipod has been succesful BECAUSE it works better on BOTH mac and windows esp with itunes....any PDA will have to follow the same path which is significantly harder due to multifunctionality of a PDA

i suspect that jobs problem with PDAs have something to do with these tough issue.


andrew

That's a great post you made, stimpy13. All the points you brought up could be valid reasons that Apple doesn't wish to add a PDA to their product list. I especially agree with the compatibility issue you raised regarding an Apple PDA and Palm OS/PocketPC.

Bad Beaver
Feb 12, 2004, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by BobVB
Your proposed iSlate fills no need I personally have and reminds me of the Cube - a product in search of a market.

I dare to disagree. Midsize pen operated computers such as this should, given the right price & marketing, sell great with students. If you are on a public university you may not want to carry an iBook all day (I don't, it stays at home), it is just too heavy & the battery does not last long enough, and current PDAs are not an alternative if you really want to enter a bunch of data in a hurry.


Not one week passes without at least three people asking me about my Newton & where they could get one because it would be just what they need.

I have said this before some time ago, but for a lot of seminars, especially smaller ones, a notebook is inappropriate and overkill. It alienates you from the group, adds typing noise, and you have a very hard time jotting down graphics, e.g. a diagram.
Other markets would be hospitals, designers (scribblepad, needs real screen estate & must be readable in bright daylight), storagekeepers, delivery services, the military of course...

SiliconAddict
Feb 12, 2004, 07:14 PM
Brighthand's first impressions of Palm OS Cobalt (http://www.brighthand.com/article/First_Impressions_of_Cobalt)


No surprise, PalmSource's decision to no longer develop a Macintosh version of its desktop client is proving controversial. I found it somewhat surprising, as I know David Nagel, the company's CEO, is a Mac user.

Still, this might not be as big a deal as some think. I spoke with a palmOne VP who gave me the impression that palmOne will be at least talking to Mark/Space about bundling The Missing Sync for Mac OS X synchronization with its Cobalt powered handhelds. And Sony Clie users have already had to use The Missing Sync for years.

jorel
Feb 12, 2004, 08:19 PM
How long does it really take to make software that will sync with osx/*nix? I mean really? Give me a break. Politics seems to be killing the computer industry.

my 2 cents.

hughdogg
Feb 13, 2004, 10:24 AM
Brighthand article (http://www.brighthand.com/article/First_Impressions_of_Cobalt)

Mac Synchronization
"No surprise, PalmSource's decision to no longer develop a Macintosh version of its desktop client is proving controversial. I found it somewhat surprising, as I know David Nagel, the company's CEO, is a Mac user.

Still, this might not be as big a deal as some think. I spoke with a palmOne VP who gave me the impression that palmOne will be at least talking to Mark/Space about bundling The Missing Sync for Mac OS X synchronization with its Cobalt powered handhelds. And Sony Clie users have already had to use The Missing Sync for years. "

A comment...to all of you on the board saying, "Palm betrayed me, I've owned a Palm since the Pilot 1000, etc." Wake up! You and I really don't matter. PalmSource is really targeting the corporate market, as that is the area of growth in this industry. (Corporations tend to buy higher end models, and more of them, and they update them faster) Palm is also trying to fend of MS in this area. You can see that as they have been redesigning their software to have Outlook compatibility right out of the box. See here: Tungsten T3 page (http://www.palmone.com/us/products/basics/improv_org.html) And we all know, Apple is not real big in the enterprise desktop market right now.

All management is about allocating limited resources, and PalmSource management has choosen to allocate its resource where it believes it will get the best return, and that is the corporate market. I guareentee you, if Apple could make some inroads in that corporate desktop market, Palm would be right there with support. (We can argue chicken and egg stuff about this sort of news hurting Apple in the corporate market, but lets be honest, Apple hasn't gone after that market aggressively - it doesn't make cheap boxes that corporations want. We can also argue TCO, but corporations tend not to look at that longer range costs than, this quarter, this year, etc. "What will is cost me to upgrade 4,000 desktops?" sort of things... )

Cheers,
hughdogg

edit- corrected URL...

wrldwzrd89
Feb 13, 2004, 10:26 AM
Hey hughdogg - Please edit your post and turn off smilies - they are breaking your URL.

edit - hughdogg: saw your edit. Now people can use your link!

Bad Beaver
Feb 13, 2004, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by wrldwzrd89
Hey hughdogg - Please edit your post and turn off smilies - they are breaking your URL.

Or just use makeashorterlink.com

wrldwzrd89
Feb 13, 2004, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Bad Beaver
Or just use makeashorterlink.com

Bad Beaver, what is makeashorterlink.com for? I've never heard of this site, nor do I know how using it would be helpful here.

Bad Beaver
Feb 13, 2004, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by wrldwzrd89
Bad Beaver, what is makeashorterlink.com for? I've never heard of this site, nor do I know how using it would be helpful here.

They make ugly long urls short, like this:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?S2F332667
and you are less likely to have a smiley interrupt your url ;)

hughdogg
Feb 13, 2004, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by Bad Beaver
They make ugly long urls short, like this:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?S2F332667
and you are less likely to have a smiley interrupt your url ;)

Thanks for the tip, I'll add that page to my bookmarks for future use. :)

Original post is edited.

Cheers,
hughdogg

tex210
Feb 15, 2004, 11:21 PM
Brighthand is running this rumormill story...
http://www.brighthand.com/article/RumorMill_Details_of_Upcoming_Apple_Handheld
Some supposed specs, and a "this is a yearly rumor" disclosure.

Awimoway
Feb 15, 2004, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by tex210
Brighthand is running this rumormill story...
http://www.brighthand.com/article/RumorMill_Details_of_Upcoming_Apple_Handheld
Some supposed specs, and a "this is a yearly rumor" disclosure.

Not another PDA rumor. Kill me now...

I don't the think the MacNet guy is all that reliable, anyway. It sounds like a Sony Clie, so what's the point if Jobs hates PDAs?

On the other hand, it might explain Palm's otherwise odd decision...

aswitcher
Feb 16, 2004, 12:37 AM
If the thing doubles as a normal iPod - or even has A/V iPod potential then I think its going to be viable