PDA

View Full Version : walmart worker trampled to death on black friday


furcalchick
Nov 28, 2008, 12:23 PM
even though this is very sad, part of me knew this was going to happen eventually (http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/1304195,wal-mart-black-friday-worker-dies-112808.article) with all of the trampling and such happening on black friday in recent years. just another reason why not to line up on the 5 am lines.

for full disclosure, i have gone early morning shopping before, but never for big ticket items. too much hustle and bustle, and i'm not willing to sit all night in chilly weather.

GoCubsGo
Nov 28, 2008, 12:26 PM
I too am not surprised, but still sad.
It is a total shame that this has to happen to save a few dollars. However, Wal-mart should know from tons of years past that they need to make special accomdations for people who do wish to fight for their savings. Perhaps next time a ticketing system is in order. I've seen it done tons of times before.

CalBoy
Nov 28, 2008, 12:47 PM
A few people get trampled every year, and it's really just wrong.

I hope Walmart (and every other retail that lets stampedes happen) has to pay a massive penalty for this, because they know this happens every year. Ticket systems work well (electronic stores use them) so I can't see why other retailers can't do the same.

Killed over pointless consumer goods...how sad. :(

synth3tik
Nov 28, 2008, 01:12 PM
A Wal-Mart employee died and four others were hurt in the Black Friday rush to get into the Valley Stream store this morning.


http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=6529135

Just another reason to add to many on why black friday is horrible. I mean it just seems barbaric. This is what I do not like about American consumers. I mean if your willing to kill over some good deal at Walmart of all places... Wow. I don't know what else to say.

EV0LUTION
Nov 28, 2008, 01:17 PM
I saw this on the news. People are animals.

Aranince
Nov 28, 2008, 01:17 PM
One more reason to embrace online shopping!

synth3tik
Nov 28, 2008, 01:20 PM
One more reason to embrace online shopping!

dido that. I am currently involved in that practice as we speak.

jonbravo77
Nov 28, 2008, 01:21 PM
One more reason to embrace capitol punishment on retarded ppl. And I am not talking about the ones who truly have a disability, talking about ppl who are stupid and self centered enough to trample ppl to death just to get little Timmy the toy they've always wanted and then it gets sold at a yard sale 6 months later. :mad:

Much Ado
Nov 28, 2008, 01:24 PM
One more reason to embrace capitol punishment on retarded ppl. And I am not talking about the ones who truly have a disability, talking about ppl who are stupid and self centered enough to trample ppl to death just to get little Timmy the toy they've always wanted and then it gets sold at a yard sale 6 months later.

You don't think that's just a little bit insensitive?

mkrishnan
Nov 28, 2008, 01:26 PM
This is what I do not like about American consumers.

It is quite sad, poor person and their family. :( On the other hand, I think comments like this not only ignore the evidentiary body but carry the danger of ignoring the underlying problem itself and allowing people to continue being hurt in order to feel better about ourselves.

This kind of violence happens everywhere in the world. The social psychology literature has again and again shown that these kinds of things happen as a result of social context and not as the result of one class of people or another class of people being evil.

Consumers from anywhere in the world put in this situation are going to be at risk for acting like this. I'm not saying blame Walmart either, although they created the scenario that caused this to happen. I'm merely saying demonizing consumers won't actually prevent these kinds of injuries or fatalities. You have to change the structure. If stores want to have Black Friday rush events, we cannot allow people to queue up at midnight and wait in the freezing cold for five hours, and then allow them to stampede through a tiny store entryway to grab a limited number of items and then expect no one to get hurt.

Concert venues used to have injuries like this all the time, that aren't really evidence of consumerism gone awry. They still do have stampedes. But they have taken steps to at least reduce the frequency of them. They don't just create an environment where violence is highly likely and then stand back and see what happens.

jonbravo77
Nov 28, 2008, 01:27 PM
You don't think that's just a little bit insensitive?

How did I know that someone would do that? There you go, not to be to insensitive but why don't you quote my entire post, and not the little bit that makes you look like you are just the example of political correctness?

EV0LUTION
Nov 28, 2008, 01:32 PM
I never have the chance to participate in black friday, it sounds like a lot of fun, unless your the guy getting trampled of course. I always end up blowing my money on newegg or in the mall.

waloshin
Nov 28, 2008, 01:34 PM
I saw this on the news. People are animals.

Of coarse people are animals!

Much Ado
Nov 28, 2008, 01:35 PM
How did I know that someone would do that? There you go, not to be to insensitive but why don't you quote my entire post, and not the little bit that makes you look like you are just the example of political correctness?

Your whole post effectively said the overzealous shoppers should be killed, which given the circumstances seems unnecessarily insensitive. Somone has lost their life today, as some seem to forget.

Blue Velvet
Nov 28, 2008, 01:38 PM
I'm not saying blame Walmart either

I would. It's a clear neglect of health and safety and represents corporate manslaughter. This is what happens when worker's rights are neglected, or in the case of Walmart, actively discouraged.

EV0LUTION
Nov 28, 2008, 01:40 PM
Of coarse people are animals!

Animals in the philosophical meaning. Humans are the only life form on this earth that has the ability to reason, and we rush department stores to get 30% off something we don't need. In the process of which we destroy anything that slows down our wants. In this case a walmart employee.

jonbravo77
Nov 28, 2008, 01:41 PM
Your whole post effectively said the overzealous shoppers should be killed, which given the circumstances seems unnecessarily insensitive. Somone has lost their life today, as EVOLUTION seems to forget.


Then quote the whole post and not just the "capitol punishment on retarded ppl". And there is a difference between overzealous shoppers and maniacs who don't care about anyone else and will do what it takes (including, but no limited to hurting others) to get what they want.

It should be a crime punishble to the fullest extent. There is NO excuse for those kinds of shoppers and there is no punishment for it as well. And before you say it, I know, when 2,000 ppl rush in how do you know who did it. Well you don't, but there still needs to be a law and a presidence.

ucfgrad93
Nov 28, 2008, 01:45 PM
I saw this on the news. People are animals.

Agreed. How sad that something like this could happen. Someone died just because some people wanted to save a few bucks. Pathetic.:mad:

Much Ado
Nov 28, 2008, 01:47 PM
Then quote the whole post and not just the "capitol punishment on retarded ppl".

I have done.

Certainly blame Walmart, and blame our culture. But let's not sling "kill them all!" around so loosely when a family is coming to terms with such a pointless loss of life. Insensivitve to everyone, in my opinion.

mkrishnan
Nov 28, 2008, 01:48 PM
I would. It's a clear neglect of health and safety and represents corporate manslaughter. This is what happens when worker's rights are neglected, or in the case of Walmart, actively discouraged.

Ahem, I should have said, I wouldn't blame Walmart as having truly created the problem, since it does what others in its field do also. But I have no problem with targeting them for action, as they are in a position to fix it.

In fact, if I could recant farther... :o even if one could identify individuals whose physical bodies stampeded this poor person or the others injured, and somehow convince oneself that that particular individual was somehow responsible for the mob actions, there's no deterrent in it. I know of scant evidence that suggests doing so would actually cause a reduction in this kind of violence.

On the other hand, the benefit of targeting Walmart is that companies do respond to these things, and they can prevent them. If Walmart is targeted for this, for instance, it's likely that they and other large retailers with similar practices would change their Black Friday events in such a way as to easily and drastically reduce the violence.

synth3tik
Nov 28, 2008, 01:48 PM
This kind of violence happens everywhere in the world. The social psychology literature has again and again shown that these kinds of things happen as a result of social context and not as the result of one class of people or another class of people being evil.



I should have elaborated on that. It is true that a situation like this is not something that just happens in America, and I don't know if I would really even consider this evil. I don't think it was let on my greed or violent behavior. More so that ones self comes before everything else. Which is partially instinctual, but in a civilized society we should understand that this is not a matter of survival.

It just seems that Americans embrace this black friday thing a little too much. Letting the prospect of a good discount cloud over their judgment. Granted I have not experienced black Friday in any other country but the US, and I am sure there are mad rushes everywhere. It does seem though that we take it too the extreme.

adroit
Nov 28, 2008, 01:49 PM
This sad story just cements my growing disdain for what Christmas has become. It is a vile and twisted relic of its former self.

Poor guy just wanted to work, now he's dead because of the selfishness of others. My heart goes out to his family and friends. :(

jonbravo77
Nov 28, 2008, 01:51 PM
I have done.

Certainly blame Walmart, and blame our culture. But let's not sling "kill them all!" around so loosely when a family is coming to terms with such a wasteless loss of life. Insensivitve to everyone, in my opinion.

You are exactly right, someone has died in this. And that is a tragedy that should have never happend. Black Friday has been going on for years and the places that these things happen in should be held very much accountable. There is no excuse, they know what is going to happen but do nothing to prevent it.

SpaceKitty
Nov 28, 2008, 02:08 PM
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=6529135

Just another reason to add to many on why black friday is horrible. I mean it just seems barbaric. This is what I do not like about American consumers. I mean if your willing to kill over some good deal at Walmart of all places... Wow. I don't know what else to say.

You don't seriously believe that this is just a thing that happens in America?

Columbine was a thing that was once said to happen only in America. Next it happened in the U.K. and in other countries as well. There are stupid people everywhere.

floyde
Nov 28, 2008, 02:11 PM
Animals in the philosophical meaning.


In a biological sense, actually. There's nothing that sets us apart from other lifeforms.


Humans are the only life form on this earth that has been documented to have the ability to reason

Fixed that.

jonbravo77
Nov 28, 2008, 02:13 PM
You don't seriously believe that this is just a thing that happens in America?

Columbine was a thing that was once said to happen only in America. Next it happened in the U.K. and in other countries as well. There are stupid people everywhere.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the poster doesn't believe this only happens in America, however in the context of Black Friday, that is generally an American tradition, a horibble tradition at that but American none the less.

MacNut
Nov 28, 2008, 02:14 PM
This sad story just cements my growing disdain for what Christmas has become. It is a vile and twisted relic of its former self.

Poor guy just wanted to work, now he's dead because of the selfishness of others. My heart goes out to his family and friends. :(The whole idea of Christmas, give on to others seems to have been lost and is all about commercialism and money.Before police shut down the store, eager shoppers streamed past emergency crews as they worked furiously to save the store clerk's life.
"They were working on him, but you could see he was dead, said Halcyon Alexander, 29. "People were still coming through."
Only a few stopped.

mkrishnan
Nov 28, 2008, 02:15 PM
It just seems that Americans embrace this black friday thing a little too much.

This is fair, although Boxing Day is fairly frightening in Canada.

I think the idea that "people are animals" is actually a really good one -- not just those people, but all of us.

If you had four pet dogs, and one of them tore up the couch, and you took it out and shot it, how much do you believe the other three would be less likely to damage your furniture in the future as a result? No one who raises dogs applies this logic to them.

We apply this logic to ourselves. Which sounds good, and makes us feel good about the nobility of humanity, except that it almost never works to deter violence.

People are animals. I'm an animal. I'm not ashamed of it. What does separate us from most other animals, however, is the extent to which we can modify our own society in order to improve ourselves.

So we should recognize that we're animals, and change things so that people are not put in a position where they are likely to stampede, and poor Walmart workers are not put in a position where they are likely to be run over by stampeding individuals. It is possible, but I do also honestly think we have to stop being so full of ourselves and how much better we are than the sick and deranged masses, in order to get off our butts and make societal change that will reduce violence.

jonbravo77
Nov 28, 2008, 02:18 PM
The whole idea of Christmas, give on to others seems to have been lost and is all about commercialism and money.

There is no X-mas anymore. I'm Jewish and I know more about the meaning of x-mas than most Americans or most of the world do. And I agree with the generalization that X-mas is all about greed and selfishness and not about togetherness. It's sick what has become of a once very symbolic and at it's core great holiday.

Dagless
Nov 28, 2008, 02:21 PM
One more reason to embrace online shopping!

And then we end up with postal workers with broken backs.
Nobody wins. :(

synth3tik
Nov 28, 2008, 02:49 PM
"They took the doors off the hinges. He was trampled and killed in front of me. They took me down too. ... I literally had to fight people off my back."

I didn't even catch this part before. I could only imagine the sheer barbaric nature of a crowd that would rip the doors off there hinges. At least it sounds like this other guy fell on his stomach protecting him a little.

CalBoy
Nov 28, 2008, 03:17 PM
Shots fired at Toys R Us in Palm Desert; 2 reportedly dead
12:42 PM, November 28, 2008
A gunman opened fire at a Toys R Us store in Palm Desert, killing two and causing shoppers at the busy store to scramble for cover.

Riverside County Sheriff and fire officials responded to a report of a shooting and two gunshot victims at 11:32 a.m. at the toy store in the Desert Crossing Shopping Center at 72314 Highway 111, said Cheri Patterson, information officer for Riverside County Fire and Cal Fire based in Perris.

Link (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/11/shots-were-fire.html) Wonderful. :rolleyes: :(

synth3tik
Nov 28, 2008, 03:23 PM
Link (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/11/shots-were-fire.html) Wonderful. :rolleyes: :(


That is just far and out horrendous. Why? Why the hell would anyone think it was ok to do something like that. And what are people doing being guns to toy store. Horrible.

rdowns
Nov 28, 2008, 03:33 PM
How sad. I'm ashamed to say I live in the county it happened in. I just can't believe how people will act to save a few bucks. Apparently, we need laws to regulate these ridiculous sales. Retailers should be required to pay the local towns for police to regulate the crowds at a minimum.

What the hell do these retailers think will happen when they advertise a $1500 TV for $600 and have only 5 to sell?

shecky
Nov 28, 2008, 03:50 PM
sometimes this country disgusts me. i also think the higher-ups at wal-mart should be held accountable for this person's death as they are responsible for inciting a riot.

notjustjay
Nov 28, 2008, 03:52 PM
I sure hope the people who were responsible (and yes, I realize you can't pin a stampede death on any one or two people) realize what they did. If I so much as accidentally step on your toe, I'll feel bad, let alone be a part of a stampede that tramples you to death.

Last year IKEA had a desk chair on special at $15. I raced over to the store so carelessly that I got involved in a parking lot car accident that cost me over $1,000 to fix. I cannot help but think, every time I look at or sit in my chair, that it is the most expensive chair I have ever purchased.

I hope someone out there looks at their TV or stereo or whatever and realizes just how much it cost.

Gray-Wolf
Nov 28, 2008, 04:30 PM
You should see the women in the Brides day sale. It's not a pretty picture.

All kidding aside, it is a tragedy, but one that was created by Merchants wanting a good sale. They can hire security to control the crowds, but they choose not to.

BoingoBongo
Nov 28, 2008, 04:35 PM
That is just far and out horrendous. Why? Why the hell would anyone think it was ok to do something like that. And what are people doing being guns to toy store. Horrible.

I work and live about 2 blocks from the store where this happened. It's really messed up. It's bad enough anywhere, but especially in a toy store that's full of kids. At least the only people killed were the two gunmen. Not that it's good anyone died, but at least no innocent people were physically harmed.

And that WalMart thing is just pathetic. I always try to avoid stores on days like today, and now I'm even more determined to do so in the future.

Prof.
Nov 28, 2008, 04:43 PM
Only at Wal-Mart:rolleyes:

bruinsrme
Nov 28, 2008, 04:55 PM
How many were waiting to hear about the stories like this one.

More of them should be rolling in shortly.

Imagine loosing your life to save a couple hundred dollars.

I love the internet, UPS and Fedex.

Scott

Teh Don Ditty
Nov 28, 2008, 06:05 PM
I live and work not too far from where this occurred. It's an absolute shame.

11800506
Nov 28, 2008, 06:10 PM
Well it shows what is wrong with American consumerism. You would think that Walmart would feel obliged to issue a press release of some sort saying that from now on they will institute a new system and will try to stop neglecting workers' rights. It's just horrible to see what Black Friday can do. I did my shopping online today and luckily for me, it as cheapest there anyways.

Iscariot
Nov 28, 2008, 06:15 PM
Humans are the only life form on this earth that has the ability to reason

Depending on how you define and measure "reason", there are plenty of other animals with the ability to reason, who empathize, act altruistically even across species! and possess the ability to act irrationally, violently and even vengefully. There are certainly other animals that are self-aware, and you might say the difference between animal and human intelligence is just a matter of degree.
This is fair, although Boxing Day is fairly frightening in Canada.

Is it? I've never experienced anything near what I read about Black Friday.

jonbravo77
Nov 28, 2008, 06:26 PM
Well it shows what is wrong with American consumerism. You would think that Walmart would feel obliged to issue a press release of some sort saying that from now on they will institute a new system and will try to stop neglecting workers' rights. It's just horrible to see what Black Friday can do. I did my shopping online today and luckily for me, it as cheapest there anyways.

You would like to think so. But every single year stories like this happen. And every single year nothing is done to try and stop it. It's corporate America and consumer America at it's worst.

scotty96LSC
Nov 28, 2008, 06:56 PM
What is that important that you have to trample someone to get it?
Just ashame, just a waste.
And now the lawsuits.

SactoGuy18
Nov 28, 2008, 06:57 PM
One more reason to embrace online shopping!

That's why I bought stuff from Amazon.com and certified eBay resellers a lot lately. :)

noodle654
Nov 28, 2008, 08:42 PM
What a shame...

I dont think I have done any Christmas shopping in the stores in about 3 years. I buy everything online and I havent participated in Black Friday once.

BoingoBongo
Nov 28, 2008, 09:00 PM
What a shame...

I dont think I have done any Christmas shopping in the stores in about 3 years. I buy everything online and I havent participated in Black Friday once.

Yeah. A couple of years ago I went into Best Buy on December 23, having completely forgotten what day it was, and it was just too much to handle. I don't know why anyone would go out of their way to go into a situation like that.

robanga
Nov 28, 2008, 09:06 PM
Horrible. People are depraved and it magnifies in groups.

synth3tik
Nov 28, 2008, 09:07 PM
I sure hope the people who were responsible (and yes, I realize you can't pin a stampede death on any one or two people) realize what they did.

Sadly I don't see that. People kept flowing through the doors as the paramedics were trying to revive him.

The real sad part is no one gave a rats ass that 5 people got trampled. They would not care that the one guy died as long as they got that really good deal.

I could also imaged the people getting angry when the police closed the store. Probably saying things like "Well he is dead so what does it matter, now I have to go to another walmart to get that TV, this is bull s***".

Schtumple
Nov 28, 2008, 09:09 PM
Is $100 off a HDTV really worth that much to some people, it's sickening, there appears to be a horrific lack of morals and common sense amongst a certain populous that is worryingly growing...

chainprayer
Nov 28, 2008, 09:13 PM
A few people get trampled every year, and it's really just wrong.

I hope Walmart (and every other retail that lets stampedes happen) has to pay a massive penalty for this, because they know this happens every year. Ticket systems work well (electronic stores use them) so I can't see why other retailers can't do the same.

Killed over pointless consumer goods...how sad. :(

how is it wal mart's fault? the idiots outside broke down the door to get in

Dejavu
Nov 28, 2008, 09:45 PM
Consumerism is the new religion.

GSMiller
Nov 29, 2008, 12:34 AM
There was a drive by shooting outside of a store in Lexington this time last year. It's all quite sad to see people act so stupidly in such situations.

how is it wal mart's fault? the idiots outside broke down the door to get in

They could not have the sales, or spread the discounts over the course of the month of December.

CalBoy
Nov 29, 2008, 12:36 AM
how is it wal mart's fault? the idiots outside broke down the door to get in

This type of behavior is neither new nor unexpected.

Black Friday injuries have been on the rise for some time, and retailers need to be held accountable to a certain degree, because they are goading customers and driving them into a frenzy over crappy deals.

I think it's reasonable to expect all retailers, including Walmart, to keep lines orderly. Best Buy (at least the one in my area) did this by putting up ropes to mark a clear line boundary and gave customers tickets to represent their place in line. No one was in front of the door, no one could run over anyone else (security was there too). Mind you I wasn't there to witness it because I stay away from Black Friday, but the news story last night showed a very clearly thought out process and Best Buy should be commended for their foresight.

synth3tik
Nov 29, 2008, 12:52 AM
supposedly (with good reason) this was the heaviest advertised black Friday. Not the most deals, the most advertising. The ads are what get people into these frenzies and most people know that the $129 blu ray players in major short supply and that just adds to the chaos.

Around here Best Buy was showering everyone with ads about that blu ray player for at least a full week. When it came time for people to get them they found like 4-5 per store. So that is around 250 people, some who stood in line over night that will now all fight for the 5 blu ray players. I think that stores should not be allowed to mass advertise products that are in extermely short order. The whole purpose of it is bait and switch (especially when they are all gone), but it really creates an unsafe shopping experiance.

cycocelica
Nov 29, 2008, 03:47 AM
Yay consumerism.

But seriously, we saw this coming didnt we? It amazes me people the type of people who participate in Black Friday.

Abstract
Nov 29, 2008, 05:24 AM
Black Friday injuries have been on the rise for some time, and retailers need to be held accountable to a certain degree, because they are goading customers and driving them into a frenzy over crappy deals.


People are intelligent enough to take responsibility for their actions, even if you believe that a retail store can drive a person "into a frenzy". Doesn't matter. The customers are responsible. They still have a brain, and they're still responsible for using it.


Link (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/11/shots-were-fire.html) Wonderful. :rolleyes: :(

Ah great, is that where all the gang-bangers hang out now?

mkrishnan
Nov 29, 2008, 08:28 AM
Is it? I've never experienced anything near what I read about Black Friday.

Maybe that's not entirely fair. :D

But then I've never experienced the things that are in the papers first hand in terms of Black Fridays either. Just long lines, crowded stores, the items on the advertisement are no longer available, and some grumpy people. But I've never been shoved, let alone stampeded during one.

My memory of boxing day in Toronto was that it was not crazy, but it was pretty crazy the last time I went (several years ago) in Vancouver. Although apparently Toronto has had at least one incident (http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/world/2005/12/27/8719/Up-to-15-may-have-been-involved-in-Boxing-Day-shootout-in-Toronto)....

Anyway, I guess my point was simply that with people of any race, ethnicity, language, culture, upbringing, intelligence level, around the world, if you create the wrong circumstances for them (and Black Friday is the wrong circumstance for lots of Americans, it seems), then there is a high risk violence will ensue.

I guess it's time to regulate Black Friday. :o Either via torts or via laws, we should change things so this doesn't happen again....

CalBoy
Nov 29, 2008, 11:25 AM
People are intelligent enough to take responsibility for their actions, even if you believe that a retail store can drive a person "into a frenzy". Doesn't matter. The customers are responsible. They still have a brain, and they're still responsible for using it.

The problem is that we know the customers aren't capable of thinking on Black Friday, because a few of these stories happen every year, and they seem to get worse each year.

I don't see why Walmart can't go the way of Best Buy and implement crowd control. It's done at concerts, rallies, etc. Why not at a Walmart? When you know something terrible is probably going to happen but don't do anything to prevent it, I think you're partially responsible.

Ah great, is that where all the gang-bangers hang out now?

Don't worry, I'm sure the Transformers toys can handle them. :p

Thomas Veil
Nov 29, 2008, 12:03 PM
...a horibble (sic) tradition....
...there still needs to be a law....While I disagree with your earlier sentiment that people like this should be put to death, I do have an extreme disdain for the whole Black Friday thing.

There is plenty of blame to go around. The individuals that did these things certaintly need to face charges, but I also fault American industry as a whole for fostering an environment where things like this are likely to take place sooner or later.

There is no need for a time-compressed, panic-mode shopping spree to kick off the holiday season. It's just a gimmick to get shoppers all worked up in a frenzy and into the stores in pursuit of some kind of bargain or other. And while it obviously works, it extolls moneymaking at the expense of customer safety. (How many more people end up getting sick because they were standing outside the store for hours in sub-freezing weather for the chance to have first crack at a 47" Samsung HDTV? While there are obviously no statistics to support this, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if there have been cases of people who got pneumonia and died from such silliness.)

Some of the shoppers said they were mad because they'd been in line since Thursday morning. Is that the point we've reached now? We're willing to miss Thanksgiving with our family in order to save a few precious bucks? :mad:

And the article made no mention of anyone being arrested in the fracas. How do you determine who's guilty when you essentially had a riot situation on your hands? With so many people, I doubt the Wal-Mart employees who tried to save this poor guy got a good look at anybody who did the trampling; they were trying to save their own asses as well.

It's insanity. I really do think the current Black Friday practice should be made illegal, and I really don't give a good goddamn if the businesses whine about it. The ticketing system some posters mentioned seems like a good alternative.

Iscariot
Nov 29, 2008, 12:13 PM
Anyway, I guess my point was simply that with people of any race, ethnicity, language, culture, upbringing, intelligence level, around the world, if you create the wrong circumstances for them (and Black Friday is the wrong circumstance for lots of Americans, it seems), then there is a high risk violence will ensue.

I totally agree, I was just curious if you had anything documented. I'll tell you this; I'm curious enough that I'm going to investigate the Eaton's Centre on Boxing Day.

Don't worry, I'll wear one of these:
http://www.jwz.org/images/38_3.JPG

Gray-Wolf
Nov 29, 2008, 12:14 PM
I hope they catch those that trampled him, and prosecute them severely.

NEW YORK Police were reviewing video from surveillance cameras in an attempt to identify people who trampled on a Wal-Mart worker killed when a crowd of post-Thanksgiving shoppers burst through the doors at a suburban store and knocked him down.

Criminal charges were still possible, but identifying anyone in the store's videos may prove difficult, said Nassau County police spokesman Detective Lt. Michael Fleming on Friday.

Other workers were trampled as they tried to rescue the man, and customers stepped over him and became irate when officials said the store was closing because of the death, police and witnesses said.

Police said about 2,000 people were gathered outside the Wal-Mart doors before its 5 a.m. opening at a mall about 20 miles east of Manhattan. The impatient crowd knocked the employee, identified by police as Jdimytai Damour of Queens, to the ground as he opened the doors, leaving a metal portion of the frame crumpled like an accordion.

"This crowd was out of control," said Fleming, who described the scene as "utter chaos."

Dozens of store employees trying to fight their way out to help Damour were also getting trampled by the crowd, Fleming said. Witnesses said that even as the worker lay on the ground, shoppers streamed into the store, stepping over him.

Kimberly Cribbs, who witnessed the stampede, said shoppers were acting like "savages."

"When they were saying they had to leave, that an employee got killed, people were yelling, 'I've been on line since yesterday morning,"' she said. "They kept shopping."

The 34-year-old Damour was taken to Franklin Hospital Medical Center, where he was pronounced dead at about 6 a.m., police said. The exact cause of death has not been determined

http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/photoessay_5817_images/1128081507_M_112808_wal.jpg

displaced
Nov 29, 2008, 12:50 PM
Mind-boggling.

Not only that someone was actually trampled to death, but that apparently the crowd en-masse lost their own senses of self-preservation. It's incredibly fortunate that their weren't more fatalities given that others were also injured.

Is it so damn difficult to stand in a queue?

Brien
Nov 29, 2008, 01:04 PM
How sad. I'm ashamed to say I live in the county it happened in. I just can't believe how people will act to save a few bucks.

Same here. Although I'm in OC now, it still disgusts me that people would do that.

mkrishnan
Nov 29, 2008, 01:09 PM
Don't worry, I'll wear one of these:

Nice!

I do ask, that if Cylon Centurions are used for crowd control on Black Friday, that they not be placed in the control of Walmart. I think we all know where that road leads.

Blue Velvet
Nov 29, 2008, 01:14 PM
Is it so damn difficult to stand in a queue?

You speak from an ingrained instinct that is drummed into, possibly even genetically, all Brits. ;)

(Nice to see you around, Chris)

Gray-Wolf
Nov 29, 2008, 01:23 PM
People in the Atlanta area stood in line up to 10 hours to vote, shopping is no different. No rush and trampling there. Humanity goes down the tubes.

carlgo
Nov 29, 2008, 03:34 PM
Somebody make a movie called "Walmart". A cast of gigantic women buying piles of absolutely worthless stuff because it is on sale. Screaming children being abused. A back room where clothing is being sewed by crying children while being prodded by glowering Chinese soldiers. The same gigantic women eating 8000 calories at the food court. Unemployed males pushing carriages full of babies. Depressed employees stealing food out of the dumpsters. I could go on. Cultish Walmart advance operatives handing out money and threats to local politicos so their stores will be approved. Someone like Mr. Burns at the helm. It could be pretty funny.

CalBoy
Nov 29, 2008, 03:39 PM
It could be pretty funny.

If only it wasn't so depressingly accurate.

mkrishnan
Dec 6, 2008, 01:58 PM
It looks like Walmart is getting some related attention for another fatality during apprehension of a thief:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/al-norman/more-mayhem-death-at-wal_b_148922.html

The Wal-Mart workers and one bystander held Donovan down, while one leaned on his back and another held down his arms and head. The police report says they told Donovan to stop fighting, and asked witnesses to call 911. By the time Donovan had stopped struggling, he had died.

"There will be no charges pressed," a spokeswoman for the city of North Myrtle Beach told the Sun News. Authorities said results from an autopsy in the case could take 'a few months.' In the meantime, officials simply concluded, "There is no criminal act." In the words of the County Coroner's office, "As far as I am concerned there is no case here." The family of Patrick Donovan is likely to conclude otherwise, and their lawyer might like to review the court records of one Stacy Driver.

Oh, the Huffington Post article on this topic is a fairly biased source... here's local press from Myrtle Beach, where this happened:

http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/news/local/story/697943.html

Interesting:

An employee told police she saw a man in the store placing items inside Wal-Mart bags, the report stated.

The employee, another worker and a store manager approached Donovan as he tried to leave the store, and he struggled with them.

Another man outside the store said he was a retired officer, and he helped the employees wrestle Donovan to the ground until police arrived, the report stated.

The four held Donovan down. One leaned on his back and another held down his arms and head, while telling him to stop fighting, according to the report.

By the time Donovan had stopped struggling, he had died, said the report.

It's interesting that a bystander was involved in this one. It's certainly very sad that this person is dead. I guess it does raise the questions of... what the Walmart policy is (i.e. are they asking individuals who are not trained in safe restraint techniques or combat to engage physically with a perpetrator) as well as the issue of the line between well-intentioned bystander helpfulness and vigilantism.

If the bystander truly was a retired police officer, then he was trained in both combat/defense and safe restraint. So I would think that, particularly for him, a pretty high standard should be levied with respect to whether his actions constituted manslaughter or contributed to a wrongful death....

MacNut
Dec 6, 2008, 02:01 PM
We also don't know if this person had any other health issues that caused him to die.

We know what killed the worker, he was trampled to death. We don't know what killed the robber.

mkrishnan
Dec 6, 2008, 02:07 PM
We know what killed the worker, he was trampled to death. We don't know what killed the robber.

This is very true... although his all cause mortality probability during those five minutes had he not been restrained is probably fairly low. The local news report stated that the autopsy would take a month or longer... which to me is fairly surprising. While I agree that, at this time, there's no evidence yet of a crime, they ought to be diligent in at least quickly obtaining an indication of the cause of death.

OTOH, some of the points I raised are irrespective of the cause of death. Workers should not be asked or expected to physically restrain anyone without proper training in safe restraint. Period. It's a recipe for disaster. In fact they should be clearly told not to engage in this. And if Walmart has not already done so, they need to work harder to educate their employees about this. Take the man's photo and/or a photo of his car and let the police deal with it.

Even if you don't care either about the death of the thief or of the stress this places the Walmart employees under (e.g. what if one of them develops PTSD?), it's also good business sense. The last time this happened with Walmart, according to one of the articles, they paid a $750,000 business settlement. A cost of doing business that is being passed on to their customers.

iJon
Dec 7, 2008, 01:42 PM
Most Wal-Marts on Black Friday will hand out tickets and let them in group by group. Why this Wal-Mart had it set up like it did was baffling to me. This is not good publicity for them at all.

Brien
Dec 7, 2008, 01:58 PM
Those statistics about the rapes and whatnot are pretty freaky. Walmart: Save Money, GET THE HELL OUT!

EricNau
Dec 7, 2008, 02:03 PM
If the bystander truly was a retired police officer, then he was trained in both combat/defense and safe restraint. So I would think that, particularly for him, a pretty high standard should be levied with respect to whether his actions constituted manslaughter or contributed to a wrongful death....
Likewise, if he was a retired police officer it's likely that he used standard restraint procedures, and this freak death could not have been predicted.

Mr. Giver '94
Dec 7, 2008, 11:19 PM
Of course this was going to happen eventually. I mean, have you seen the size of those Wal-Mart shoppers!!!??? :eek::eek::eek:


Tehe :D