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arn
Jun 6, 2002, 05:18 PM
CNet (http://news.com.com/2100-1040-933428.html) has learned that Apple is considering doing head-to-head PC-Mac comparisons in Apple Stores:

One strategy under consideration would involve bringing Windows PCs into the stores, where customers could presumably be shown the advantages of Macs.

If the proposal is adopted, PCs from one or more manufacturers would be compared with Macs, the sources said. Apple also plans to run Connectix VirtualPC--emulation software for running Windows on Macs--on store demo units. This too would be part of the "conversion" strategy, showing potential PC customers that they could continue using current Windows software on their new Macs.

Apple seems to be getting serious about converting PC users, with the PC user recent survey (http://www.apple.com/hardware/pcusers/), and of course, the ever expansion of Apple Stores.

blackpeter
Jun 6, 2002, 05:27 PM
I love the idea.

I don't know if it's smart to do a side by side with Virtual PC unless they are running it on their fastest Mac and using the smallest PC apps.

spuncan
Jun 6, 2002, 05:28 PM
sounds cool
wonder what brand it will be. Hopefully it will be a alienware or hp w/ an amd chip to show that were better then windows' best. The VPC idea soundscool too but whats the point we want then to use X not windows. Mybe Im just missing the point. Can't wait till when the Apple store round here is finished.

j763
Jun 6, 2002, 05:28 PM
Well, Steve did say that Apple could double their market share (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_2005000/2005495.stm)...

Mr. Anderson
Jun 6, 2002, 05:30 PM
Probably one of the best things I've heard Apple doing. Not only will it show people the Apples can go head to head with PCs, but that Apple isn't trying to hide behind fancy design.

I'll be curious to see exactly what machines they use for the comparisons, though...

Kid Red
Jun 6, 2002, 05:44 PM
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Don't run VPC5 inside the stores! It sucks and is sooooooo slloooooooowwwwwwwww that it will discourage potential buyers.

I run VPC5 on my dual gig and it takes minutes to launch some apps, you can watch in slow motion as windows ar drawn!

I hope they don't run VPC 5!!

Dunepilot
Jun 6, 2002, 05:48 PM
But make sure they don't try and show them any games via VPC!

Stress the Mac games to the new users. Damn, I wish M$haft hadn't bought Bungie!

Falleron
Jun 6, 2002, 05:59 PM
Presumably, they would use the Mac versions of the program to demonstrate the differences. They would then use the emulator to show customers that they can still use their old software.

I say give it a try! If it does not work, what has been lost?

Jookbox
Jun 6, 2002, 06:15 PM
of course you guys love the idea. i wonder what apple is planning to do to make the macs seem 'faster'

Rower_CPU
Jun 6, 2002, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by Jookbox
of course you guys love the idea. i wonder what apple is planning to do to make the macs seem 'faster'

What do you propose?

I think just putting them next to Dells will be sufficient. :p

Jookbox
Jun 6, 2002, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU


What do you propose?

I think just putting them next to Dells will be sufficient. :p

yeah, i'm fine with that. i just want the test to be fair, as i'm interested in performance regardless of platform. i've read the infamous mac vs pc in after effects article on bare feats, and it just never looked good for the mac.

personally, i want to see apple kick a little ass.

whawho
Jun 6, 2002, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Kid Red
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Don't run VPC5 inside the stores! It sucks and is sooooooo slloooooooowwwwwwwww that it will discourage potential buyers.

I run VPC5 on my dual gig and it takes minutes to launch some apps, you can watch in slow motion as windows ar drawn!

I hope they don't run VPC 5!!

heck yeah it's slow. I run VPC5 with windows XP and it takes for days.....I only use it for browsers (website testing) and it takes days to launch IE.

I was thinking about installing windows 98 because there's less to it and maybe it would run faster.

I would like to see a benchmark of the different windows OSes running on VPC on a mac.

szark
Jun 6, 2002, 06:34 PM
The Apple store near me was already demoing VPC(Win98) on the dual 1GHz PowerMac earlier this week.

No sign of PCs, though.

britboy
Jun 6, 2002, 06:42 PM
Sounds like a really good idea to me. I hope they'll get some of the most boring-looking pc's out there though, for customers to have a visual reference to compare the stylish macs to ;)

Perhaps they could have some old dell machine in a dark corner, with the BSOD :p

jelloshotsrule
Jun 6, 2002, 07:03 PM
should be good.

but as others have said, the comparisons should be fair... that way, if the pc wins, apple will feel more fire under their arses to get up to speed.

that said, i am confident that 90% of people who open mindedly sit down and compare the two will come away with a mac.

Rower_CPU
Jun 6, 2002, 07:06 PM
We know Apple wouldn't make a move like this unless they know that their hardware will be up to snuff.

Since they are considering this, does that indicate that the next generation of PowerMacs will be considerably faster (DDR, G5, RapidIO, etc.) or that Apple simply wants to point out ease of use and the OS X GUI?

Rajj
Jun 6, 2002, 07:08 PM
I think it is a superb idea!!! I am a former P.C. customer converted into Apple, so I think it's a great idea!!!:D

But I think Connectix needs to do something with VP 5 to make it faster, then more pc people will convert:confused:

davester
Jun 6, 2002, 07:42 PM
The fact that a Mac can emulate a PC is extraordinary. Sure its not going to be as fast as a PC - its emulation. Can a PC do the same?

Macmaniac
Jun 6, 2002, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU


What do you propose?

I think just putting them next to Dells will be sufficient. :p
Putting Dells next to Macs would be a good idea. Dell is one of Apples big foes and by showing the mac beating the PC that would be great. Do comparisons of ease of use, M$ office, free apps, digital movie and still editing, and music.
Lets show the world what we are made of.

Choppaface
Jun 6, 2002, 07:50 PM
ok so they put a dual 1ghz G4 against a 700 mhz celeron DELL....great comparison :rolleyes:

New Guy
Jun 6, 2002, 08:28 PM
It looks like Apple may have finally gotten their cojones back. Now will they finally but together a marketing campaign that show cases some real information and not another antiseptic, fluff piece.

Enjoy!

Hemingray
Jun 6, 2002, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by Choppaface
ok so they put a dual 1ghz G4 against a 700 mhz celeron DELL....great comparison :rolleyes:

I agree. Apple had better get their stuff together if they plan on demoing a REAL cookoff between a Mac and a PC. The PC would have to be near the standard GHz available to PC users in order to truly woo any PC user over to the Mac platform. Anything less would be a joke. Now, for the real question: can the current PowerMacs truly compete? :confused: Guess I'll just have to visit my local Apple Store and find out! Or maybe they're waiting for July to pull out the big guns... hmmm... :)

SilvorX
Jun 6, 2002, 09:27 PM
right now i'm a pc user but converting to mac since windows is as dull as an os can get, win xp is basically just win 95 (without it being based on dos) with tonnes of gui changes
n mac os is an interesting OS to use (atleast 8.6+) n i'm going to be using macs more at school next school years cuz the principal wants me to do some stuff for him next year like design the webpage, n he just asked me today if i wanted to be on the yearbook comittee lol

Kid Red
Jun 6, 2002, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by davester
The fact that a Mac can emulate a PC is extraordinary. Sure its not going to be as fast as a PC - its emulation. Can a PC do the same?

You haven't used VPC have you? VPC 3 rocked, it was fast. VPC 4 started to slow down some and now VPC 5 is just crap. So it's not that we are wnating more, it's just it keeps getting slower and slower. And it's not extrodinary when it's been a reality for so many years, it's second nature now.

If you did try it, you'd complain about the speed too.

VPC 5 makes the first release of OS X (10.0) seem like OS 9 to put it in perspective.

Choppaface
Jun 7, 2002, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by Hemingray

Now, for the real question: can the current PowerMacs truly compete? :confused:

it depends on what you're doing, but the new 2.533ghz P4 has been shown to knock out the rest, including the XPs...so I dont think the dual ghz would win many battles

I'd imagine regardless of hardware the XP box they'd show would be a lot snappier....I haven't seen jagwire in person yet, but from the videos my pc seems a bit quicker....although I'm starting to notice a lot of misdrawn windows and things in explorer...almost like its being messy he he

a test here shows some interesting results:http://barefeats.com/pentium4.html

I'd doubt that most users could be won over on speed alone though. it would probably be more advantageous to pit a new iMac against like a 1ghz or 1.2ghz pc of some make and show the ease of use of the iMac (not to mention that beautiful keyboard)....another thing would be to show different apps on different platforms...to try to show people that there really isnt that sort of deficiency in software as some people think. side by side of photoshop, office, maybe some sort of sound app would be good. people aren't going to move over if they don't think they can transfer all their files over

but they definently shouldn't set this up sort of thing up just for speed. no matter how much praying one does, one will never hit 290 fps in quake on a dual ghz G4 :D :D (not that one would actually need that kind of speed :rolleyes:.....)

j763
Jun 7, 2002, 03:02 AM
The P4 does not knock out the Athlon. I've used both chips and i can tell you without a doubt, it's the other way around. Period. AMD have the fastest chip.

ewinemiller
Jun 7, 2002, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by davester
The fact that a Mac can emulate a PC is extraordinary. Sure its not going to be as fast as a PC - its emulation. Can a PC do the same?

Yes, a PC can emulate a PC just fine. ;)

reflex
Jun 7, 2002, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by davester
The fact that a Mac can emulate a PC is extraordinary. Sure its not going to be as fast as a PC - its emulation. Can a PC do the same?

Yes, a PC can emulate a PC.

Beej
Jun 7, 2002, 07:18 AM
If Apple is planning to go head to head on speed, I don't think this is a good idea. We might keep up in photoshop, FCP etc, but web browsing and just about anything else, we will get out buts kicked.

If I wanted speed, I'm sorry to say, I'd have a PC. But it's not speed I'm all about. I like speed, but I'm happy to fork out a few more bucks for a top-quality machine with a rock solid and super user-frienly OS.

Compare user-friendliness, not speed, Apple.

topicolo
Jun 7, 2002, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by davester
The fact that a Mac can emulate a PC is extraordinary. Sure its not going to be as fast as a PC - its emulation. Can a PC do the same?

Actually, yes. The pc has 5 mac emulators that I know of: Basilisk II, Fusion, Softmac, Executor, and that mac classic emulator I can't remember the name of. Admittedly, they only emulate 68k systems, but they're great for playing a game of Escape Velocity: Override :). It's kind of funny when you do benchmarks of the system and notice that your "68k mac" is running as fast as about a 1st-2nd gen imac :D.

buzzer
Jun 7, 2002, 07:45 AM
If Apple is planning to go head to head with PC they better price the Macs way lower than now. I can buy in Germany a P4/2Ghz 256Mb/60Gb/DVD/CdRW for EUR1100 + EUR200 for a Philips 17'' Monitor against 1500EUR for a 800Mhz EMac.
You can love OSX and Apple, but if you have a tight budget, well you can forget a Macintosh

topicolo
Jun 7, 2002, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by j763
The P4 does not knock out the Athlon. I've used both chips and i can tell you without a doubt, it's the other way around. Period. AMD have the fastest chip.

Not the most objective evaluation, is it? In truth, the fastest P4 IS much faster than the fastest Athlon. Compare a P4 2.53Ghz to an Athlon XP 2200+ and you will notice a difference in games and most other benchmarks. Basically, if you want the best system money can buy, you should get a mac; if you want the fastest system you can buy, get a p4 2.53Ghz; if you want the most cost-effective system, get an Athlon XP system.

Beej
Jun 7, 2002, 08:00 AM
In an attempt to settle the Athlon/P4 debate, the Athlons kicked the P4s ass when it was first released. The P4 has since gone through some revisions, and, of the fastest chips available from AMD and Intel, the P4 is without doubt the fastest.

Check out this (http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/02q2/020506/p4b-13.html) review at Tom's Hardware. For those who aren't familiar with the site, at the bottom of the page you can navigate through a very detailed set of comparisons and benchmarks (I've linded to the conclusion).

ThinkpadsRule
Jun 7, 2002, 12:36 PM
PLEASE DO NOT FLAME ME!!! But you must look at this objectively and know this is a bad idea. Most users only care about speed and there is no way a mac can compete( as of this very moment) with pc's. If the apple store does the comparisons fairly they will make people run away from the mac. Most users do not use photoshop.... I repeat most users do not use photoshop. As of today the mac loses the photoshop battle. I think apple should stay away from this and focus on the ease of use of the mac. OSX is a delight and is very simple in its learning curve unlike its windows counterparts. XP is somewhat crashproof but it is nothing like OSX. This is what apple should focus on and keep pc's out of their stores if they are gonna do a fair comparison.

Rower_CPU
Jun 7, 2002, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by ThinkpadsRule
PLEASE DO NOT FLAME ME!!! But you must look at this objectively and know this is a bad idea. Most users only care about speed and there is no way a mac can compete( as of this very moment) with pc's. If the apple store does the comparisons fairly they will make people run away from the mac. Most users do not use photoshop.... I repeat most users do not use photoshop. As of today the mac loses the photoshop battle. I think apple should stay away from this and focus on the ease of use of the mac. OSX is a delight and is very simple in its learning curve unlike its windows counterparts. XP is somewhat crashproof but it is nothing like OSX. This is what apple should focus on and keep pc's out of their stores if they are gonna do a fair comparison.

There are two responses to that:

1) Apple has killer hardware coming out soon which will make PCs look like crap.
or
2) Apple is just trying to highlight the ease of use of OS X, compared to XP, etc.

Mr. Anderson
Jun 7, 2002, 12:48 PM
You always seem to focus on the hardware there thinkpad. Apple has some very cool apps that come with the computers, so that's another good item to show off, the lack of useful and fun iApps in the pc......

ThinkpadsRule
Jun 7, 2002, 12:56 PM
Notice I said the stores should focus on ease of use and OSX.

Mr. Anderson
Jun 7, 2002, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by ThinkpadsRule
Notice I said the stores should focus on ease of use and OSX.

I'm not talking about the operating system, I'm talking about iMovie, iDVD, iPhoto, iTunes, etc. We'll probably have iChat by the time the PCs make it into the stores too. But I agree on the OSX issue, that would be a great demostration, especially with Jaguar

ThinkpadsRule
Jun 7, 2002, 07:01 PM
The iapps are ok but they are nothing compared to what you can buy with the money saved from buying a cheapo pc. The OS on the other hand cannot be equalled. That's why I didn't mention the iapps. I think OSX is the selling point. Heck it was the reason I purchased the tibook.

Rower_CPU
Jun 7, 2002, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by ThinkpadsRule
The iapps are ok but they are nothing compared to what you can buy with the money saved from buying a cheapo pc. The OS on the other hand cannot be equalled. That's why I didn't mention the iapps. I think OSX is the selling point. Heck it was the reason I purchased the tibook.

I have to disagree with you there.

Let's put it to a test. You choose the apps you would buy with the money "saved" by not buying a Mac, and see how they compare to the iApps:

iTunes
iMovie
iDVD
iPhoto

ThinkpadsRule
Jun 7, 2002, 07:25 PM
I wouldn't have to spend money to beat itunes. Did you know WMP can burn cd's, play dvd's and do the things itunes can do. So itunes isn't hard to match. As for iphoto I can spend $50 to $80 and buy paintshop pro and destroy iphoto. Painshop pro is compared to photoshop for a small price. I will continue to say OSX is the selling point. I bought my tibook about 6 months ago and OSX was the reason for that.

big
Jun 7, 2002, 07:48 PM
just jumping in on this thread...the idea of showing off an apple vs. a PC is neat. though do we really want apple buying all those pc's for their stores?

Apple should concentrate that issue at Circuit City, where they have both machines already, and get in w/Best Buy.

big
Jun 7, 2002, 07:50 PM
oh- we also need to tell the mac resellers to get compatative w/all the periphial hardware, ie a 50 pack cd bundle here in Huntsvegas at macresource (http://macresource.com) is $49.99, dissappointing

Rower_CPU
Jun 7, 2002, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by ThinkpadsRule
I wouldn't have to spend money to beat itunes. Did you know WMP can burn cd's, play dvd's and do the things itunes can do. So itunes isn't hard to match. As for iphoto I can spend $50 to $80 and buy paintshop pro and destroy iphoto. Painshop pro is compared to photoshop for a small price. I will continue to say OSX is the selling point. I bought my tibook about 6 months ago and OSX was the reason for that.

Actually, you do have to pay to enable MP3 encoding and DVD playback in Windows Media Player for Windows XP.

And iMovie and iDVD...?

Choppaface
Jun 7, 2002, 10:57 PM
iphoto isnt meant to be a paintshop pro or photoshop. that's like comparing iMovie to After Effects fully loaded. apple's target audience isnt going to want to do a lot of the stuff that you can do in paintshop pro (why do you think adobe made photo elements???) so iphoto works great for free. sure buying a cheap wintel box would save you cash, but that's another story.

ThinkpadsRule
Jun 7, 2002, 11:58 PM
On my T30 I didn't buy anything and it works. I watched a movie on it ( using WMP) yesterday and made me some music cd's. I guess IBM did me a favor.

Rower_CPU
Jun 8, 2002, 01:39 AM
Originally posted by ThinkpadsRule
On my T30 I didn't buy anything and it works. I watched a movie on it ( using WMP) yesterday and made me some music cd's. I guess IBM did me a favor.

You running XP?

And I'm still waiting for a crushing reply on iMovie and iDVD....;)

Catfish
Jun 8, 2002, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by ThinkpadsRule
I wouldn't have to spend money to beat itunes. Did you know WMP can burn cd's, play dvd's and do the things itunes can do. So itunes isn't hard to match. As for iphoto I can spend $50 to $80 and buy paintshop pro and destroy iphoto. Painshop pro is compared to photoshop for a small price. I will continue to say OSX is the selling point. I bought my tibook about 6 months ago and OSX was the reason for that.

True, XP is kinda cool, but you have to admit that while it may have this functionality it does not do it nearly as well as the iApps do. I just made the switch to Apple from the PC world like you so I know you're just playing devil's advocate. ;)

numb_brain
Jun 8, 2002, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by buzzer
If Apple is planning to go head to head with PC they better price the Macs way lower than now. I can buy in Germany a P4/2Ghz 256Mb/60Gb/DVD/CdRW for EUR1100 + EUR200 for a Philips 17'' Monitor against 1500EUR for a 800Mhz EMac.
You can love OSX and Apple, but if you have a tight budget, well you can forget a Macintosh

The thing that bothers me the most about the mac's pricing is not only that its more expensive than comparable PC-systems, but that here in Europe, macs cost insanely more than in the States. For example: the price in the US applestore for a dual Ghz is $ 2,999.00 while in Belgium, its 4233.79 euros (about $ 4,000).

I can understand that it would be a little more expensive here, but a whole f#@king 1000 dollar?? They should be ashamed of themselves! If they would just get those prices more on par that alone would already double their sales outside of the US...

numb_brain

topicolo
Jun 8, 2002, 02:01 PM
Yeah, I agree. Basically, Apple's been hampered by the strong US dollar in foreign markets. I mean, here in Canada, a top of the line Powerbook G4 costs over $6000CAN!!! I doubt many people are going to be able to justify spending that much money on a laptop, when they can get a crappier pc laptop for less than half that price. Granted, the pc laptop sucks more, is uglier, and is going to have more problems, but it is HALF the price.

Apple is charging too much. They need to lower their prices before they can gain any significant market share.

Wry Cooter
Jun 9, 2002, 01:47 PM
I wonder how this will work out in CompUSAs, where there will be many more PCs to go up against, and its much easier for a customer to merely walk away and go get a commodity PC for 300 bucks less.

Also, I think a mac running os x could still look bad to the casual PC buyer only interested in web surfing, if they surfed to site that needed RealPlayer (I think WiMP is active and ready for OS X, but is not included on Macs as installed. Maybe this won't really go into effect until Jaguar, and we'll have a browser that renders faster.

A lot of PC sales go to people that want to be able to use their proprietary business apps at home, something that VPC shouldn't have much problem with.

quanta
Jun 10, 2002, 06:21 PM
Even if the Apple store concocted a comparison which was "fair" between the machines, there would still be some suspicion as to it's inherent "fairness" or reliability for the simple reason that Apple has everything to gain by showing the Mac prevail. This would only serve to dilute a victory in the sheer processing power category.

However, one of those fruity compaq boxes you see at radioshack networked with a powertower with a 23" and an airport base station while the sales assistant (whatever they're called) walks up surfing the internet with tibook in hand, and asks the timid, contemplative convert if he has two seconds to be shown how easy it is to get a powerpoint presentation (or spreadsheet, or database or MP3 or whatever) off of the PC and bring it up on the Macs on the network.... That's a sales pitch and it'll look like the Compaq is an old TV with freaking knobs and a coat hanger antenna.

i think that whoever claimed earlier that all people care about is speed is mistaken. i'm sure that there are a lot of young men out there who waded through 486's, Pentium's, etc. and all the while needed to get a faster machine because when you get 57 players fragging each other over a 56K modem line, you get some frame delay (imagine that coming out in slow motion). Now with the insane graphics cards which you can slot into your PCI, there's not really a whole lot of need for 2.54ghz in the main processor it's overkill. Am i wrong? After 60 frames per second.... who can tell?

Someone else pointed out that most people don't use photoshop. These two points are directly linked. Apple is targeting my dad here, not me (they already have me). i don't hear the call going out for more shock troops of power users, but rather that OSX on the Mac is the luxury car of computers... it still runs on gas.... you just don't have so much car trouble....

Apple believes that less headache is worth more money... and if they get enough converts, won't we all start to save money on their systems?

elmimmo
Jun 10, 2002, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by buzzer
If Apple is planning to go head to head with PC they better price the Macs way lower than now. I can buy in Germany a P4/2Ghz 256Mb/60Gb/DVD/CdRW for EUR1100 + EUR200 for a Philips 17'' Monitor against 1500EUR for a 800Mhz EMac.

I might be wrong, since I have not done the maths, but you are not being fair comparing just the specs. You are not buying a clone when you buy a Mac, so compare a Mac with another branded PC as IBM, Dell, HP or Compaq or others. Of course if you buy just they pieces and build it up, it even results cheaper, but then you are supposed to be willing to pay for something else besides specs when you buy a branded PC. If not, what do you want it for?

elmimmo
Jun 10, 2002, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU

And iMovie and iDVD...?

This is not a counter answer, since I have not even seen the software I am mentioning. This is precisely more of a feedback request.

Discreet, without a doubt one of the biggest video compositing software developer (if not the biggest), is supposed to have a software in the iMovie target which is called IntroDV (http://www.discreet.com/products/intro_dv/). Anyone knows its price and can do a side by side with iMovie?

pianojoe
Jun 10, 2002, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by davester
The fact that a Mac can emulate a PC is extraordinary. Sure its not going to be as fast as a PC - its emulation. Can a PC do the same?

As far as I know the aforementioned Dell systems try to emulate a PC most of the time.

;) ;)

Wry Cooter
Jun 10, 2002, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by quanta

After 60 frames per second.... who can tell?


Slightly off topic tangent-- This always puzzled me too, but I finally figured it out I think. I think those glomming for frame rates are doing so for purposes of response latency or lack of same-- despite network bottlenecks, that if they have 70 frames per second to make a game play decision, they will eventually beat out those who only have 30 frames per second to make a game play decision.

Closer to the topic on hand, You know what I think killed Apples in Circuit City before the return of Jobs? Doom. Plain and simple. The sales force, straight out of high school or college, being able to play Doom, and create WADS and Maps, made them think the PCs were the serious iron. Also, the PC folks had a loaner program... I think Apples had to stay in the store. Guess which platform they recommended?

mmmdreg
Jun 11, 2002, 06:50 AM
i want to see this happen in Australia...we seem to be a bit behind in Apple's methods...
couldn't Apple like bring in out-of-date sony's that still look alright so the Macs compare really well against them even if they look modern? just some cheap tactics but yeah..

GabrielX
Jun 11, 2002, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by mmmdreg
i want to see this happen in Australia...we seem to be a bit behind in Apple's methods...
couldn't Apple like bring in out-of-date sony's that still look alright so the Macs compare really well against them even if they look modern? just some cheap tactics but yeah..

They could yes, but as someone said, Apple is targeting "my dad".

I suspect their big push is going to be to target the "silent majority". Those people not on boards like this, who don't play games obsessively, who use computers for email, webbrowsing, some word-processing, and a very few games. People who love their computer when it works, and let it grow dust or buy a new one when it breaks.

I think Apple will be doing a comparison with say Dells or HP-Compaqs. It will be more of a "kick the tires and test drive the system" test than a "complete engine check and test on the racetrack" road test. (To use a bad analogy.)

It might work out very well. The PC people will complain some that it isn't a fair test because they AREN'T really testing speed, but more user-happiness, and that is fairly unquantifiable.

Gabriel