How does an emac stack up, for me?

[DaTsar]

Despite my bad experiences with apple products in the past(it was a combination of other factors, i.e an idiot of a Mac buyer at my old school) I have decided mainly due to iLife,
curiosity and setup to buy an apple of my own, I am however a poor student and still leery, so I think I will start myself off with an eMac, and see if I want to get a full setup from there.

I’ll use it for: iLife(all the programs), some basic photo editing ,simple applications software and maybe a few RTS games, but I do most of my gaming on my Xbox, so game performance is not my concern. I will get it with a super drive and a Gb of ram. If I get one that is.

You see, the mhz Myth has never been quite explain to me, other then there is a differences based on other parts of the CPU.I still am considering a PC(perhaps just for this reason + initial cost[keep in mind that in Canada which ups the price difference a little]), and as much as iLife and other software would promote me to buy a little lesser computer(if it is in fact lesser) to have iLife is not necessary to my needs and for that reason I am stuck.

So can anyone explain to me or give me a good site that explains the myth in full, and what in PC terms(for the functions I want) this eMac is, without understanding this, I don’t know if a Intel Pentium 4 Processor at about 3.0GHz w/ 533MHz FSB is compared to a 1Ghz G4.

Can anyone help?

[blackfox]

I cannot really fully explain the MHZ myth to you, mostly has to do with the differences in architecture between PPC and Intel, design of chip(s)(like pipeline stages, cache etc) and instruction sets like altivec on the G4, SSE(ithink) on intel chips...anyway... I will equate the eMac to the PC you listed...the PC will be quite a bit faster. The eMac has a 1ghz processor, a 167mhz(or 133 can't remember...)bus, a 5400rpm(maybe 7200...I'm a little lazy...)The PC has a processor that is 3x as fast as well as a system bus that is 3x as fast...HD probably comparable...PC has more upgrade options too...BUT, that is only part of the story...the other part has to so with the os...and in this department macs are far superior...unfortunately, XP also feels snappier compared to os X(.2or.3) However, many people are convinced that os X is vastly superior...file structure...unix base...aesthetics...ease of use, and for a computer you use everyday...that is no small potatoes....the other thing is, if you will not be doing alot of cpu intensive tasks on your computer...the gap in speed will not be an issue between the PC and MAC...seems like a tough call, but if it makes a difference, both of my computers are slower than the eMac (I have a G4 733 Powermac and a G3 900(upgrade) Powerbook...with alot of ram in both, I accomplish all the tasks I need (and I do some rather intensive work...) and have a pleasant computing experience while doing it....it all comes down to a matter of taste really...Go to a CompUSA or local Mac retailer and take one for a spin...

[jrv3034]

For the tasks you described, the eMac seems like the perfect fit. I would definitely recommend adding as much RAM as possible, because that will really make a big difference in performance. Otherwise, you'll be good to go.

[x86isslow]

I just bought a Superdrive eMac with an upgrade to 512-1dimm. it was 1200usd. They have a deal: buy now and get a free epson printer. I'm not sure if that goes for Canada too.

as for the things you want to use it for, if you upgrade the ram you'll be fine.

here's what the chip designers have to say about the megahertz myth: http://www.itworld.com/Comp/1057/040218isscghz/

[kuyu]

I have an emac 700 combo, and I really like it. It's a great computer for a student, and iLife works pretty well. Garageband is frickin' awesome, but my lil' ol' G4 can't handle more than about ten tracks simultaneously. With 30% more processing power, you should be fine there.

The pc your talking about will be much faster, but remember.......... a computer is only as fast as the person using it. Almost every task requires fewer steps on the mac, so the speed difference is negligable (unless you plan to render a full length film). Either computer will be nice, but I'd take the mac. After using one for a year, I can't stand XP anymore.

I have a pc too, and it sits there collecting dust. They sit side by side, but I always go to the mac.

[baby duck monge]

i think others can talk to you more about the actual performance differences than i can, so i will leave them to it. for me, the machine just has to do what you need it to do, and you need to be happy while doing it. the only way to know is to go play on one.

other than that, to help ease the price difference (if you go for a mac), shop around for the extra ram. that will help take a bit off the price (not a whole lot, but every little bit counts, right?).

[Opteron]

Originally posted by DaTsar
So can anyone explain to me or give me a good site that explains the myth in full, and what in PC terms(for the functions I want) this eMac is, without understanding this, I don’t know if a Intel Pentium 4 Processor at about 3.0GHz w/ 533MHz FSB is compared to a 1Ghz G4.
Can anyone help?

on www.tomshardware.com review there is a great review of about 25 PC processors (READ IT)

here's the link http://www17.tomshardware.com/cpu/20031223/index.html

The thing that kills the G4 is the FSB, it's hit a brick wall @ 167MHz, and can't be double or quad pumped like AMD and Intel Chips. And the G4 seems to not be able to go any faster than 1.42GHz.

Alot has to do with the IPC (Instructions per clock cycles) This is how AMD is able to keep up with intel yet being almost 1GHz behind. The same with the PPC.

There are many other more complex details but what it really boils down to is
How fast can you feed data to the Processor (RAM and FSB)
How fast can it be processed (IPC's and Clock rate)
How fast can it be convayed to the user (FSB, North Bridge, Grahics card...)

[Krizoitz]

First I think the eMac is a fine machine. It may not be top of the line but with some extra RAM as long as you aren't trying to do heavy video editing or hard core gaming you should be fine.

MHZ Myth
The simplest way I can explain the MHZ myth is by analogy.

Imagine two people who have to walk a certain distance. Lets say 100 meters. The first person can take 10 steps in a minute. The second person can only take 6 steps per minute. But that doesn't tell us how fast each one gets done because we don't know how big their steps are. So person one takes 1 foot per step. Person two takes two feet per step. So in one minute person one goes 10 feet, but person two goes 12 feet. This is what the MHZ myth is all about. The idea that how fast the individual steps get done isn't as important as how fast the overall task gets done.
Essentially the argument is that the Pentium series of chips is the first person, the second person being the PowerPC.

Now obviously the details are a little more complicated. In addition to clock cycle you have to worry about how deep the pipeline is, and as you mentioned bus speed, memory, HD speed, etc.

What you really have to ask yourself is not how fast it is, but is it fast enough for what you want to do with it. I currently have an iMac 800 MHz, and it does a good job for the things I need to do with it, photo editing, interenet, word processing, and even some gaming. The eMac 1ghz should be even better with a faster processor and a slightly better graphics card.

Also where did you find this 3ghz pentium with 533 fsb for the same price? I'm curious.


Originally posted by DaTsar
Despite my bad experiences with apple products in the past(it was a combination of other factors, i.e an idiot of a Mac buyer at my old school) I have decided mainly due to iLife,
curiosity and setup to buy an apple of my own, I am however a poor student and still leery, so I think I will start myself off with an eMac, and see if I want to get a full setup from there.

I’ll use it for: iLife(all the programs), some basic photo editing ,simple applications software and maybe a few RTS games, but I do most of my gaming on my Xbox, so game performance is not my concern. I will get it with a super drive and a Gb of ram. If I get one that is.

You see, the mhz Myth has never been quite explain to me, other then there is a differences based on other parts of the CPU.I still am considering a PC(perhaps just for this reason + initial cost[keep in mind that in Canada which ups the price difference a little]), and as much as iLife and other software would promote me to buy a little lesser computer(if it is in fact lesser) to have iLife is not necessary to my needs and for that reason I am stuck.

So can anyone explain to me or give me a good site that explains the myth in full, and what in PC terms(for the functions I want) this eMac is, without understanding this, I don’t know if a Intel Pentium 4 Processor at about 3.0GHz w/ 533MHz FSB is compared to a 1Ghz G4.

Can anyone help?

[MictXP]

The MHZ myth does, unfortunately, have some validity. If you are doing really heavy CPU tasks that have little optimization (such as SETI or DVD Crunching), you will notice that the PC is faster. Probably a lot faster to tell you the truth. (The November or December issue of MacWorld said that very thing).

However, there are a few other things to consider. First (probably most important) is that a Windows machine will slow down dramatically over a few months. This is just the way Windows is designed. The heavy crunching programs will not be affected too much, but surfing, emailing, word processing, etc., will take forever. The way that I get around this on my PC is, sadly, to format my hard drive every few months. There are other solutions, but none that will get your PC to a truly "fresh install" state. I've had my "weak" 867 PowerBook (slower RAM, slower HD, slower FSB, etc) since September, and it runs a lot faster than my 1.7 GHZ PC does. I've never had to format my Mac.

Second, you'll not have to waste CPU power on an anti-virus program with a mac :-D Well, in theory you should, but if you went 5 minutes without an AV on a PC, you'd be toast.

More about the speed -- the key to speed in terms of video editing, etc., is the optimization that happens. Think of it this way -- when a processor is not optimized, it is speaking a foreign language. A P4 doing video editing would be like an American in another country. The P4 would be very fast and could look up 3.2 Billion words per second -- yes, that is faster than any eMac can do right now. But the eMac is fluent -- it doesn't need to look up any words! That's why, if you use Final Cut Express, you often don't need to wait for the video to render -- you can edit in real time! (Yes, even on my puny PB).

So the speed thing is much more complicated now. PCs are faster, but Macs will probably be just as fast in "real world" applications. Also remember that, if you buy a cheap PC, you are buying a *cheap* PC. If you buy a cheap Mac, you are buying a Mac that costs less money.

One final consideration -- I would buy with whatever OS you like. That's what it boils down to in the current age. I still have my PC, but I use it mainly for DVD compression. For anything else, my Mac is much better. (I consider myself a power user, btw).

[DaTsar]

Hey, thanks;
Well, I didn't know that windows thing, I noticed it don't get me wrong but I never thought it happen cause of windows, just computers that get work on in general.

but one more thing:
Is it worth spending that extra money on an 17" iMac for as I said and introduction to apple?

[Mantat]

One of the thing that people never talk about on the eMac is how good the screen is! The color contrast is excellent and just for that, its pleasant to work with it.

The eMac is perfectly good for your need and even more so since you have an xBox and you can concentrate to use the computer on productive task. iLife is very fun and you will soon start shoot/filming all the time and will be called 'kidkodak' by the rest of your friends.

My advice is to get the HD upgrade and dont buy the ram from Apple, get it from a PC store. As long as its from Kingston, it will be perfect.

I personnaly think that my mac is faster than my pc for these reason:
- no matter how fast the computer is, I spend more time thinking about what to do than waiting for it to happen
- never lost any data, EVER. Just that is a huge time saver
- computer is always on
- Never have to worry about virus (big big big plus)
- What ever I want to do, I can generaly do it in fewer steps on the mac


As for getting the iMac 17", it is really up to you. I personnaly think that the eMac is a better value but the iMac as the look factor and also the 16:9 screen is way more usefull than a normal screen. Its more a personnal choice than anything. With the money you save you would be able to get a digital camera or an iPod...

Good luck with your switch! You should be very pleased :-)

[wordmunger]

If you're going to upgrade from the eMac, the best bet is not a 17-inch iMac. Get a 1.6 Ghz G5 with a 17-inch CRT for about the same price. This thing will blow away the iMac, and most PCs out there too. But the eMac will do you fine for all the apps you've listed. Probably better to spend the extra $ on RAM and HD space than getting a minimally configured higher-level product.

[MictXP]

Originally posted by DaTsar
but I never thought it happen cause of windows, just computers that get work on in general.

You should really test out a Mac then. Boy, will you be surprised :D

[Crikey]

I agree with the others' postings here. In purely hardware kinds of measurements, a 3GHz PC is faster than a 1GHz G4. But using MacOS X is more intuitive and fun than using Windows, and the eMac is "fast enough".

If you're a student, check into the Apple educational discounts. Here in the U.S., they are substantial. You'd need to buy from a college bookstore, the online Apple Store, or (I think) a retail Apple Store to get that discount.

I second the notion about buying RAM from someone other than Apple -- at least compare the prices before you buy. We've filled our Macs with ram from www.crucial.com, and never had a problem. I personally would want at least 512MB RAM in an eMac, a gig if you can swing it.

Have fun!


Crikey

[gekko513]

Originally posted by wordmunger
If you're going to upgrade from the eMac, the best bet is not a 17-inch iMac. Get a 1.6 Ghz G5 with a 17-inch CRT for about the same price. This thing will blow away the iMac, and most PCs out there too. But the eMac will do you fine for all the apps you've listed. Probably better to spend the extra $ on RAM and HD space than getting a minimally configured higher-level product.
The G5 will be a lot more upgradeable though. I would definitely get the low-end G5 PowerMac. The PowerMac will last you years and years, but you'll probably toss the eMac away in a couple of years when new software that runs poorly on your G4 starts coming out.

If the choice still stands between iMac and eMac, I would get the eMac, or I would wait for the new iMac ... It's bound to get an upgrade soon.

[MictXP]

Originally posted by Crikey
or (I think) a retail Apple Store to get that discount.

I just wanted to confirm -- yes, you can get the discount at a retail store. That's how I bought my PB -- student discount, no shipping, and no tax :D (They'll give you tax exempt if you can prove that you're from a tax-free state)

[Mav451]

I honestly cannot believe that the "PC gets slower after few months" myth continues to be perpetuated. I've had my computer running since last March and in a few weeks, it would have been an entire year.

The only reason your computer would slow down is 1) spyware (from people who do not use Firefox). 2) Installing/Uninstalling a plethora of applications, useful or not, and not cleaning it out with JV16 PowerTools. 3) Appropriate service tweaks not applied (turn of indexing, turn off several useless background services, turn off prefetch folder, turn off system restore -- which consumes an exorbitant amount of hd space as well).

#2 is important b/c, after installing XP Pro, Office (first XP, recently upgraded to 2003), and Acrobat and Photoshop, I rarely install anything else besides a few games (SC and CS). If you are installing several new programs every week, then it really is no suprise you'll see a slowdown.

Honestly, even in 3 years, I don't expect to have to reformat, unless i get hit by a virus. Since I'm using Thunderbird/Firefox with the assistance of SpyBoT:S&D, there is an extremely small possibility of me getting infected. Then, on top of that, I run McAfee (free license as university student).

Seriously, the 3 month slowdown//twice a year reformat myth needs to be stopped. It is the same as generalizing that OSX never crashes.

If Firefox was bundled with all new PCs out there (far better in comparison to Safari than IE vs. Safari); then spyware/security problems would be reduced dramatically.

[Opteron]

Originally posted by MictXP
Second, you'll not have to waste CPU power on an anti-virus program with a mac :-D Well, in theory you should, but if you went 5 minutes without an AV on a PC, you'd be toast.

3 Years without an Anti-Virus software, and still clean as a whistle.

Some great anology's about the MHz Myth, AMD released an add avaliable on ther website
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Weblets/0,,7832_8366_7687,00.html

I would wait until atleat the new BTX motherboard standad is released (april/may) which offers improvements over the current ATX format.

[gekko513]

On the megahertz-myth.

The reason why MHz or GHz are not sufficient to measure a processor's performance is simply that the total work the cpu does is:

work = frequency x work-per-cycle

The P4 can do a maximum of 3 instructions per cycle. The G4 can do a maximum of 4 (3 instructions + branch).

But that's not all. The P4 has an instruction pipeline with 20 steps. The G4 has only 3 steps. Instructions enter the pipeline in one end and comes out 20 clock-cycles later with the result (or 3 clock cycles for the G4). To get maximum performance, the pipeline must be 100% filled at all times. Because programs do not run straight from start to finish, but sometimes jumps to other parts of the program or get stalled for other reasons it is difficult to keep the pipeline full. (I wouldn't ask about what other reasons, because you could write a trilogy on the subject ;) )

It is much harder to keep a 20 step-pipeline filled than a 3 step pipeline. So if a P4 can get a fill-degree of 50% for a program, the G4 would perhaps be able to get a 75% fill degree. This would give
for the P4
work-per-cycle = 3 x 0,50 = 1,5
for the G4
work-per-cycle = 4 x 0,75 = 3

For this example, a G4@1GHz would perform as well as a P4@2GHz

The work-per-cycle factor depends on the kind of program, but usually you can multiply the G4 frequency by 1.2 to 2.0 when comparing to a P4.

[MictXP]

Originally posted by Mav451
The only reason your computer would slow down is 1) spyware (from people who do not use Firefox). 2) Installing/Uninstalling a plethora of applications, useful or not, and not cleaning it out with JV16 PowerTools. 3) Appropriate service tweaks not applied (turn of indexing, turn off several useless background services, turn off prefetch folder, turn off system restore -- which consumes an exorbitant amount of hd space as well).

I would agree with this. I would say that there are some other causes as well, but those three issues rack up the majority of slowdowns.

The point I want to make, however, is that, for the average user, the computer does slow down. Windows, by default, is insecure and will slowdown. If someone is asking about purchasing advice for an eMac, then they probably don't want to have to run JV16 Powertools, and probably don't know how to turn off background services, indexing, etc., nor will they know which services they don't need. There are websites that attempt to educate Windows users, but even then, which is easier for an average user?

Windows:

Install AV
Change default browser/email to Firefox/Thunderbird (or other app)
Turn off useless background apps
Turn off useless services
Optimize system cache
Run Spybot once a month?
Run Powertools, Systemworks, TweakXP, etc.
(Should really install firewall)


eMac:
Use it? I can't think of many optimizations I've had to run. I run Cocktail every now an then because I'm on a laptop, but an eMac would run cron scripts automatically.

There are ways to keep Windows running decently, but for someone who wants a computer that they don't have to maintain or worry about, I'd say Macs are better. For power users, I'd say Windows is still better. (Of course, I haven't tried a G5, so maybe my opinion will change shortly.)

[Mav451]

Why are you making it sound like such a complicated process?

Turning off useless services, indexing services, etc. is a ONE CLICK PROCESS (custom registry entry)

That's it.

Switch to Firefox/Thunderbird? One step process. At the beginning. If you do it later, there's a slight learning curve but that's it. I've been using it since last August.

Run PowerTools? Only if you are always fiddling/installing or uninstalling programs. No real reason to touch it otherwise. I used it recently (the first in 3 months) b/c of a finicky 3rd party TV tuner program, which turned out to be buggy. But aside from that, I haven't had to use that either. AV is a ONE STEP installation. Update? One click away.

ALL of the necessary tweaking is done at the VERY beginning, yet many MR members continue to avoid or ignore this point I try to make.

[aafuss1]

The eMac's graphis is a Radeon 7500-not fast compared To a FX5200-comparable to say Intel Extreme Graphics (845G/865G), but not the new i915G.

[Opteron]

This chart is rather old but demonstrates the point that others were trying to make earlyer.
CPU preformance depends on may features.
These include
Cache
FSB,
IPC's,
Clock Rate
FP vs Int calculations
Optimization
etc...

[Rower_CPU]

Mav451-

Care to give some more detail on your "one-click" custom registry entry?

[Mav451]

hehe well registry entries are imported by simply right-clicking >> Import. Or otherwise, just double click.

*hah you caught me. It's actually 2 clicks.

Rower: Do you want the specifics of what i have disabled? Well if that's the case here it is:

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Alerter]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\ALG]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\AppMgmt]
"Start"=dword:00000003

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\AudioSrv]
"Start"=dword:00000002

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\BITS]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Browser]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\cisvc]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\ClipSrv]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\COMSysApp]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Dhcp]
"Start"=dword:00000002

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\dmadmin]
"Start"=dword:00000003

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\dmserver]
"Start"=dword:00000002

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Dnscache]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\ERSvc]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Eventlog]
"Start"=dword:00000002

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\EventSystem]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\FastUserSwitchingCompatibility]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\helpsvc]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\HidServ]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\ImapiService]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\lanmanserver]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\lanmanworkstation]
"Start"=dword:00000002

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\LmHosts]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Messenger]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\mnmsrvc]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\MSDTC]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\MSIServer]
"Start"=dword:00000003

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\NetDDE]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\NetDDEdsdm]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Netlogon]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Netman]
"Start"=dword:00000003

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Nla]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\NtLmSsp]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\NtmsSvc]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\PlugPlay]
"Start"=dword:00000002

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\PolicyAgent]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\ProtectedStorage]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\RasAuto]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\RasMan]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\RDSessMgr]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\RemoteAccess]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\RemoteRegistry]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\RpcLocator]
"Start"=dword:00000003

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\RpcSs]
"Start"=dword:00000002

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\RSVP]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\SamSs]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\SCardDrv]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\SCardSvr]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Schedule]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\seclogon]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\SENS]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\srservice]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\SharedAccess]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\ShellHWDetection]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Spooler]
"Start"=dword:00000002

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\SSDPSRV]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\stisvc]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\SwPrv]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\SysmonLog]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\TapiSrv]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\TermService]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\TlntSvr]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\TrkWks]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\uploadmgr]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\upnphost]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\UPS]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\VSS]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\W32Time]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\WebClient]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\winmgmt]
"Start"=dword:00000002

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\WmdmPmSp]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Wmi]
"Start"=dword:00000003

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\WmiApSrv]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\wuauserv]
"Start"=dword:00000004

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\WZCSVC]
"Start"=dword:00000004

04 = disabled; 03 = manual; 02 = auto

I know that it might scare you at first (not all of you, but the ones who aren't power users).

Heck, it scared me in the beginning. But now, I always use this right after installing XP (first test was my brother's 3200+ (2500+ OCed) box; he still adamently refuses to use FireFox, but I got him to use SpyBot to immunize IE at the least...sigh

Stubborn brothers, what can you do :)

[Mav451]

Oh crap...I just realized when you said custom that this is not really my "idea" so to speak; while I did take out a few here and there, the credit really goes to the man, Black Viper.

http://www.blackviper.com/WinXP/servicecfg.htm

Without a doubt, this guy has helped thousands, if not millions of gamers out there with his custom registry tweaks. I am truly sorry i did not give the credit to him earlier (hehe hope he does not read MR). Seriously, alot of stuff explained at his website that MSoft fails to explain (the same way XP does NOT include an excellent Registry clean up program like JV16 PowerTools natively....grrrr).

[csubear]

Originally posted by Mav451

Turning off useless services, indexing services, etc. is a ONE CLICK PROCESS (custom registry entry)

The windows registry can be scary even if it is one click.


ALL of the necessary tweaking is done at the VERY beginning, yet many MR members continue to avoid or ignore this point I try to make.

Even if a PC outperforms a mac, the mac just works. If you have all day to sit around and tweek you computer thats great. I am sorry if I am out of place here, but i just can not stand windows. Each version is slower, takes more memory and more CPU time. If i had all day to sit and tweek an operating system it wouldn't be window.

[Mav451]

csubear: You like a Mac fine. The point i was making is that if this was done with all the PCs out there, you wouldn't be having as many of the "typical" or stereotypical problems that the Dell/HP customers will usually face, b/c the tweak will reduce alot of this.

If it were that way, csubear, you wouldn't even notice.

*Yes you are right in some aspects. I don't understand why Windows doesn't have an option at the beginning (minimal services, moderate, max) or something like this to reduce the bloat.

*csubear, you again are furthering the stereotype that the "tweakin" takes all day. Didn't I just say that it only takes a SINGLE registry entry to reduce the bloat and that it is/should be done at the time of OS installation? Are you even READING my posts? If you aren't going to contribute to the argument, do not employ blanket statements as your proof.

[csubear]

I read you post.

I understand what you are saying. I used to have views quite similar to yours. I was a big windows 'tweaker'. Bought all the right peices for my computer, set all the right jumppers tweaked my bios for the quickest memory timmings. Had the news coolest copy of windows. (I hated macs, i still hate classic)

Then i saw the light. I was forced to use a mac at work, and discovered a computer that works. No more tweaks.

I don't care who you when you first look at the windows registry its scary. (btw most good cs people will agree that the windows registry is a pile poo)

Not only do i not like windows any more, i have given up on the intel/AMD. The x86 ISA is old, and needs replaced(i like AMD move to a new 64 ISA for its 64 bit stuff, and i even like the Itanic, but it priced its self out of the market).

My 900 MHz G3 has a 5 stage pipeline. The newer G4 have somthing like 10-14 not sure. I am not sure how long AMD pipeline is but i know P4 is some where around 20 stages. So... 900 Mhz/5 ~
1/(180*10^6) s to excute an instruction, and a P4 @ 3.0 GHz takes 1/(150 * 10^6) to excute an instruction. While we all know that my 900Mhz G3 is not as fast as an 3.0 GHz P4(there are other factors, cache,FSB...) i would like to stress that the power design is far better than intel (to bad we couldn't get a fast FSB, that is what is killing the G4,G3)

[Mav451]

Csubear, I actually have been trying 10.3.2 on the 2.0G5's in the lab at my school. The one thing that still strikes me is that all the Mac really misses is "pure performance". But that gets me to thinking of the Toyota Camry vs. Camaro argument. Or pretty much any import vs. Camaro argument. The Camaro has massive power, but i would never trust that over the reliability of Toyota/Honda.

The problem is, however, that i have had

a) Photoshop KP once on a computer (once out of the 4 times I've been trying them out, 1-2 hour sessions usually), and that was only my 2nd time on the G5!

b) Safari stalling numerous times (bringing iChat with it I might add, lagging or almost completely stopping my conversations)..beachball ugh.

Not good first impressions i might add, but hopefully these have easy solutions guys? Additionally i have heard the "Apple" sound on NUMEROUS occasions--which indicates someone has just restarted the computer, again. The stereotype of Apple computers as all-conquering, never-crashing machines (oh and "never requiring the standard PC world restart" begins to seem pretty fallible. That impression is one that many MacRumors members hear love to push onto the few PC members, like myself and it is not surprising that their claims were not true. Heck, I hear this more than the times i hear the "Windows 2000" sound the Dells make in our lab.

*of course a response to this might be-oh, old software needs to updated, etc.

I thought it went w/o saying that Apple computers "Don't need IT" or "Don't need tech support?" I don't know enough to fix it, but the person who arranged their purchase hopefully we be able to help.

[csubear]

You don't think the G5 is not pure performance! I think you need to take a closer look. 1Ghz hypertransport FSB, 400 Mhz DDR, Serial ATA?

http://www.barefeats.com/g5op.html

Have you ever used altivec? Its have wrote serval apps that utlized it, the speed up on typical floating poing problems was 4x. It is trully an amazing SIMD unit.

Not sure what why the G5 your G5's are restarting. Ya Safari has problems sometime, but i have never had any major issues. It still needs another year of development, writing a modren web browers is not easy. But still you guys most be doing something very strange to have an OS X machine needing to restart. My ibook has had uptimes of months. On a latop. My server also has had uptime of months. I only need to restart on updates or new drivers.

btw, not all camaro's have massive power.

[Mav451]

Hehe sorry i forgot to say--i had meant to say "HAS been missing up to this point...". Up to the G5, there wasn't the "pure performance" perspective that the G5's now command today. I had enough of my Apple friends shove that into my head throughout July, thank you very much :)

And the mention of Camaro's? A lot of white guys at my high school told me all the time how Hondas were "inferior" in performance and that American muscle was all conquering and "unbeatable".

I dunno if you have gotten in a car argument before but it will ALWAYS go to American vs. Imports.

[Mav451]

Part of the argument, in the Street Racing world, is that Camaro's were extremely cheap compared to similar Import offerings.

The Spec V; RSX Type S (as import examples) etc. cost nearly twice as say a used Camaro with 300hp. I now see the similar I can buy a high powered PC for 500 bucks, build my own PC kind of argument arising from this...interesting.

Funny that just by typing it out I am just starting to see this.

[csubear]

Yes pre 1981 or late 90's Z-28s are sweet. I wished i could find one that wasn't a rust bucket(ohio :( ). Or a 70's trans-am with a 450. I had a 68 skylard with a big block 350, that thing had so much power. but also got 12 mpg.

America forgot how to make cars for about 20 years, and i think things are just turning back around now. We are seeing a new muscle car era.

The new grand-prix is about the only american car i would buy. Japan has produced some great sports cars that not only go fast, they get more than 12 mpg. For example the WRX, or the 3000GT-VR4, Supra just to name a few.

But i think that i am getting away from the point of the thread. I think some one wanted to know how an emac would work out for them. Emacs are great, put as much memory as you can. A lot of people bash OS X b/c it eats memory, but unlike windows it is not the OS eating all the memroy. When OS X load a program something call a nib gets loaded in to memory. A nib is your user interface and all its widgets. When the program is closed the OS caches that nib in RAM. This allows you to open the program much faster the next time, and after a while you'll notice that you computer runs faster the longer it is on:)

[MictXP]

I actually have almost the same .reg file. I decided that it would be worth the time to learn about all of the services and stuff. So I went to blkviper, just as you did, and started with the "Gaming" reg file.

After messing around with that, I started to customize it. I liked having Windows Time automatically set itself, so I turned that back on. I do like Auto Updates, so I turned that back on by default. There were a few more...

Then I noticed that my browser couldn't remember passwords anymore :-( So I had to figure out what I screwed up. I found it, and fixed it, and fixed my reg file.

Then I noticed I couldn't share my folders/printers anymore :-( So I found the problems, and fixed it.

Then I noticed that Norton AV wouldn't auto update anymore :-( So I found the problems, and fixed it.

There were several more steps in there too. That's not including all the time it took me to learn the best settings as far as system cache (not able to set with a reg file), the best programs to optimize my computer, the random tweaks that I like. But I've learned them all now. From a clean start, I can have my computer secure and just the way I want it in less than 20 minutes.

Unfortunately, 20 minutes is not how long it took to learn all of that stuff. It took months of messing around with everything. And unfortunately, there's not a "one size fits all" registry file that will work for everyone.

So I go back to the original post -- this person is not asking about advice on a G5 vs. Alienware computer. If that were the case, then it would be different. But he's asking about an eMac. IMHO, Macs are better at staying up to date, staying secure, staying fast, etc. PCs have their place -- raw performance, software variety, compatibility with everything (though Macs are starting to catch up). But you do have to configure more and do more maintenance on a PC than you do on a Mac. I'm still a PC power user, but I just like my mac better.

On a side note -- I noticed that all the Macs in my university's Mac lab crash too. I think they're running Jaguar, but it could be older. The Dells in our labs almost never crash. I know this is funny coming after what I just said, but it's what I've noticed. Who knows? There is a little truth behind the myth that Macs never crash though -- mine doesn't. I usually reset it every week just for the fun of it.

[gekko513]

Mav451: I think you may be the one who's missing the point here. I'm sure it's not difficult to do what you have done, but the point is that a normal user shouldn't have to know some friend who know the right tricks to keep her computer from getting bogged down from normal use. (And yes many normal user will often install and uninstall all kinds of stuff that they get across (why do you think these e-mail viruses work so well ;) ))

I use computers for a living, heck, I'm even a full time programmer, but I still don't mess around in the registry. A normal user doesn't know what the registry is, and she shouldn't have to.

[Rower_CPU]

Mav451-

I was pretty sure you were talking about Black Viper's stuff. ;)

So, a 3rd party went through the registry and did the grunt work of exploring all those keys to find the teaks that add functionality to Windows that it should have had to begin with and/or improve the system performance.

Rather than a strength inherent in the OS, I'd call it the luck of having someone who's done the heavy lifting for you. Plus, the general computer user is in no way going to be familiar with, nor usually capable of modifying the registry. That's the realm of IT folks and hardcore tweakers.

Point is, with this and the other things you listed, it's not an "out of the box" system state - and I think that's what most people have been getting at.

Anyway, as others have pointed out, this is all veering far from the original poster's questions. Let's try to get back to that, shall we? :)

[Mav451]

haha I'm sure you guys enjoyed the tangent. There is one thing I realized, and it is kind of funny. Every single thing I have named is a 3rd party/open source alternative, none of them are native to XP.

Firefox? Open source alternative.
Thunderbird? Open source again.
Registry tweak? A guy named Black Viper worked his butt off on stuff Microsoft fails to explain about
SpyBot: S&D? 3rd party S/W
JV16 PowerTools? 3rd party AGAIN.

Microsoft? Didn't help at all :(

Safari is native to OSX so i think once it is rock solid (probably around 1.3 - 1.4); then OSX by default already has a superior browser. Actually it has one without saying (IE 6 is ridiculously insecure by default). I have "switched" to so many "safer" alternatives, and yet I still resist the "overall" switch...the irony.

[MictXP]

Originally posted by Mav451
I have "switched" to so many "safer" alternatives, and yet I still resist the "overall" switch...the irony.

Haha -- I was the same way. I even tried switching Word Processors because I hated Microsoft, but yet I continued to use Windows!

I'm a relatively new switcher, and I think the only reason I did switch was because the 12" PowerBook laptop was everything I wanted at the time. Mainly portability. Now I'm extremely happy with OSX. I still don't know if I would buy a Desktop, just because I always associate Desktop with Power. Yes, the G5 is very powerful in hardware, but the software is still lacking. I'm testing out a new video codec on my PC, for example, and my Mac cannot play it :-( Plus, I do like "tweaking" computers -- I've always built my own PC. Windows invites its users to tweak. I'm sure OSX does too, I just don't know where to look yet. That's the other reason I switched -- just something new.

[kuyu]

Originally posted by MictXP
That's the other reason I switched -- just something new.

I know what you mean. I knew almost nothing about mac's (OS X) when I plugged in my eMac. But, I've had a blast figuring it all out. I still use pc's on a daily basis, but I find myself secretly wishing they were all mac's.

Granted, the pc's I use are fast Dell's (generally good pc's), but I just like the mac platform better. I personally don't care if the mac isn't as processor fast. I don't strain my computer.

To answer the original post....
Every computer made is pretty quick in terms of speed. Buy the one with the OS you like most. You might check out linux before you buy, as I've heard it's a decent OS.

[MictXP]

Originally posted by kuyu
Buy the one with the OS you like most.

Originally posted by MictXP
I would buy with whatever OS you like.

I agree!

[DaTsar]

I just have to say, all the macs at my old school crashed and froze all the time too, I don't know what these schools do to their macs, but they just don't act like other macs I've used.