What hardware does Apple make themselves?

[Ramius]

So I've had this discussion with friends many times, and I was hoping some of you could help me understand this better.

Their argument is that an Apple computer, in this case the new MacBook, will run better and faster than an equal laptop (with the same hardware). The reason for this is that Apple's hardware is not general purpose, but dedicated and tailored to work as good as possible with the different parts.

Is this true? If so, in what way do they dedicate hardware?


Also, since I know Apple is supposed to be a hardware-company as well as software company, what do they make themselves? I know they didn't make the Hard Drive. They didn't make the graphics card, they didnt make the processor.

I have the impression that Apple makes the LCD screens? Is that true. And of course they make the casing, keyboard, mouspad and all that themselves.

[cube]

Mac hardware are just PCs now. They days when it was special are long gone.

[SuperSnake2012]

Apple does not make the LCD panels... those are made by other companies. Apple does create the software to run with handpicked hardware, and that's where you find compatibility and stability in OS X. The design the computers and the cases, but Apple doesn't make all the hardware themselves. I always found Apple's software to be remarkable rather than their hardware. IMO the switch to Intel was a good move :)

[edesignuk]

Pretty sure they don't make anything themselves. They design systems around core components widely available, have logic boards/cases made to fit their needs, then plumb in the CPU, GPU, drives, RAM etc that are pretty much available off the shelf.

[cube]

Well, they are supposed to be designing some handheld CPU or most probably SoC.

[edesignuk]

Well, they are supposed to be designing some handheld CPU or most probably SoC.Meaning they've bought in to other companies that actually do design hardware from the ground up ;)

[cube]

Meaning they've bought in to other companies that actually do design hardware from the ground up ;)

OK, but they did design chipsets before when Mac hardware was special.

[arkitect]

Delete please

Never mind… I was wrong.

[sporadicMotion]

Mac hardware are just PCs now. They days when it was special are long gone.

+1... sort of

Once upon a time, they were made in (or at the very least assembled) in Cupertino... the OS has come a long way but the hardware is pretty generic. The reason they run faster than a "PC" counterpart is they use a more efficient OS based on BSD (UNIX)... if you install Linux or BSD on a PC, it will run more efficiently than if it were running Windows... for the most part.

[cube]

You do realise that there is a difference between design and manufacturing… right?

You do realize that designing chips is where the action is, as opposed to fabbing them, which is commoditized?

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Don't they make their mice and keyboards? Well they probably at least make their own documentation and the papers that come with your machine.

Oh and those sweet ass stickers that come with new macs.

[arkitect]

You do realize that designing chips is where the action is, as opposed to fabbing them, which is commoditized?

See my post above… ;)

[Ramius]

So does Apple design the chipset themselves? Aka the motherboard?

And do you think it is possible that when Apple gets an Nvidia GPU, the have a say in the architecture of it?

Is there really nothing special about the hardware in a Mac?

Lets contrast it with Dell or Fujitsu Siemens. These companies just buy in heaps if different hardware parts, puts them together in a standard laptop case, and installs Windows on them. Is that what Apple does now?

My impression was that Apple tailored their hardware. Which means they optimised the GPU to work a 100% with the selected CPU. And that they really made the RAM work for all it was worth.

Cause with general purpose computers, you dont get the maximum effiecency the hardware is capable of. But if you would customise an application, lets say Windows, for just one graphic card and one selected processor, you would be able to make it sing alot better than otherwise. I thought Apple was doing this... but maybe not?

[edesignuk]

Apple don't design anything themselves, there is nothing special about any of it. It's an Intel proc on an Intel chipset, coupled with RAM and GPU of their choosing from parts available from other vendors.

[cube]

So does Apple design the chipset themselves? Aka the motherboard?


They designed chipsets when Macs used PowerPC CPUs.

The chip design company they bought is supposed to be making something for iPhone/iPod (or maybe netbook?).

[Ramius]

So if its just a normal PC. Can I install OSX on my desktop-computer ?

In case of the processor in the new MacBook, the Nvidia 9400M. Thats custom-made for the MacBook by Nvidia is it not? For that specific machine ?

While the other gpu's they make, are custom-made for atleast 20 other chipsetmodels.

[edesignuk]

So if its just a normal PC. Can I install OSX on my desktop-computer ?You haven't heard of a Hackintosh?
In case of the processor in the new MacBook, the Nvidia 9400M. Thats custom-made for the MacBook by Nvidia is it not? For that specific machine ?

While the other gpu's they make, are custom-made for atleast 20 other chipsetmodels.The physical hardware may be jigged around a bit to fit in Apple's systems, but the chipsets themselves are nothing special.

[sporadicMotion]

So if its just a normal PC. Can I install OSX on my desktop-computer ?

In case of the processor in the new MacBook, the Nvidia 9400M. Thats custom-made for the MacBook by Nvidia is it not? For that specific machine ?

While the other gpu's they make, are custom-made for atleast 20 other chipsetmodels.

If your desktop has compatible hardware, then there are ways to install OS X on a PC. It's not legal as it goes against their EULA but many people do it anyways. Look up osx86 or hackintosh on google.

[richard.mac]

So if its just a normal PC. Can I install OSX on my desktop-computer ? …

ill leave that up to you to research.

… In case of the processor in the new MacBook, the Nvidia 9400M. Thats custom-made for the MacBook by Nvidia is it not? For that specific machine ? …

Nvidia went to Apple about hybrid SLI ideas and Apple said they loved it but wont it in their notebooks. so Nvidia designed it specifically for the MacBooks, not Apple.

Apple design and market the computers using third party OEM manufactures like Intel, Nvidia, ATI (less now), Foxconn, Broadcom etc.

the analogy once posted here is the question 'Do you grow and refine the ingredients used to bake a cake?'. No, you outsource the ingredients and then prepare and bake the cake just as Apple outsources the components and then designs the computer around them. its actually quite an intensive process and Apple make a lot of money out of it and so to the OEM manufactures.

/thread.

[Ramius]

ill leave that up to you to research.



Nvidia went to Apple about hybrid SLI ideas and Apple said they loved it but wont it in their notebooks. so Nvidia designed it specifically for the MacBooks, not Apple.

Apple design and market the computers using third party OEM manufactures like Intel, Nvidia, ATI (less now), Foxconn, Broadcom etc.

the analogy once posted here is the question 'Do you grow and refine the ingredients used to bake a cake?'. No, you outsource the ingredients and then prepare and bake the cake just as Apple outsources the components and then designs the computer around them. its actually quite an intensive process and Apple make a lot of money out of it and so to the OEM manufactures.

/thread.

So does Apple bake a better cake than anyone else ?


And another question, if the hardware is just like PC-hardware, then would OSX run better on a better laptop? Like a Dell with 4gb ram, 3ghz cpu, 512mb gpu etc? Or an Asus or Fujitsu with better specifications?

Cause back to my original question again, how come the MacBook Pro ran Windows Vista significantly better than any other laptop in 2007? Even when many of the laptops included in the test, had better hardware? Results like that leads me to think theres something better about Apples hardware.

[sporadicMotion]

So does Apple bake a better cake than anyone else ?


And another question, if the hardware is just like PC-hardware, then would OSX run better on a better laptop? Like a Dell with 4gb ram, 3ghz cpu, 512mb gpu etc? Or an Asus or Fujitsu with better specifications?

Cause back to my original question again, how come the MacBook Pro ran Windows Vista significantly better than any other laptop in 2007? Even when many of the laptops included in the test, had better hardware? Results like that leads me to think theres something better about Apples hardware.

take benchmarks with a grain of salt...

[kasakka]

So does Apple bake a better cake than anyone else ?


And another question, if the hardware is just like PC-hardware, then would OSX run better on a better laptop? Like a Dell with 4gb ram, 3ghz cpu, 512mb gpu etc? Or an Asus or Fujitsu with better specifications?

Cause back to my original question again, how come the MacBook Pro ran Windows Vista significantly better than any other laptop in 2007? Even when many of the laptops included in the test, had better hardware? Results like that leads me to think theres something better about Apples hardware.

Yes, it would run better if the hardware support is there. At the moment the only real limitations to installing OSX on a regular PC are that there are drivers for fewer devices. Especially with laptops certain WLAN, Bluetooth, audio etc chips just won't work due to incompatible or missing drivers since Apple only has drivers for their systems really.

As for that test, it was possibly conducted with PCs that were not wiped clean, meaning they were full of **** like manufacturer's crap programs or Norton or F-Secure **** slowing things down.

There is absolutely nothing special about Apple's hardware. They use the same parts many other manufacturers do, they simply have a rather nice operating system and the Apple look that makes them so cool. On the computers I'd say the new Macbook trackpad is really the only thing that really separates them from other laptops. Well that and the stupid video adapters.

[Ramius]

Well you have that. But the way the new case is designed also is a new step in the evolution of how hardware in a laptop is built.

Anyway, you say this:
chips just won't work due to incompatible or missing drivers

Chips like what? Is there any devices in a Mac thats not in a PC? Cause thats also what another friend told me. That Apple has special hardware to run things in OSX that Windows cant.

Also, since OSX is a better programmed operating system than Windows is. Does that mean it requires less powerfull hardware to run than Windows does? If so, does this have a say in applications like rendering films and photos, or playing games?

[edesignuk]

Chips like what? Is there any devices in a Mac thats not in a PC?Components can come from anywhere, whatever OS you have there will need to be a driver to make them function.

OS X has an extremely limited range of drivers since Apple control the hardware, there are Windows drivers for just about everything.

[mbleopard]

There are some companies that have engineers that work at Cupertino full time just to make sure that Apple has all the support they need getting their hardware to work inside the Apple products.

As far as specialized hardware I don't really think so, it just seems that Apple holds sway over the hardware companies and tend to get first choice, such as with the new Nvidia chipsets and the processors in the first gen MBA

[Ramius]

take benchmarks with a grain of salt...


Still, why does people think it performed better?
Another argument I've heard is that Apple uses components of higher manufacturing quality. Simply, made with better materials, something which perhaps could explain the higher prices???

[DoFoT9]

Still, why does people think it performed better?
Another argument I've heard is that Apple uses components of higher manufacturing quality. Simply, made with better materials, something which perhaps could explain the higher prices???

hey :)

ok firstly, performance isnt just from the hardware!! a LARGE percentage of it comes from the Operating System itself, and how it interacts with users and all that junk. OSX performs very very well (IMO) for this part, and that is why i believe some benchmarks of it pull of better than others (only where the benchmarks test the OS itself).

i should say that some benchmarks are hardware based only, so if you get a mac and a similarly spec'd PC, they will give pretty much the exact same result.

secondly, apple uses pretty much exactly the same components as ANY PC. they are neither better nor worse. the reason the prices are so high is because apple feels comfortable in doing so, they have a large enough market and people 'need' to have their computers & software.. so people keep on buying them even though you can get a computer that is much much cheaper with the same specifications.

and thirdly, to your original post: apple pretty much only designs the layout and case, nothing else. e.g
• CPU's are from intel
• mobo's and graphics chips are from NVIDIA
• HD's are from either seagate, western digital, hitachi or a few others
• RAM is from....hhmm i donno!!
• LCD's are from either LG, samsung or a few others
• keyboards/trackpads etc aren't really anything, they are just buttons with caps!
• CD/DVD drives are bought from other people.

apple builds the case, keyboard caps etc and puts the whole thing together. they are pretty much no different from an everyday PC, the main difference is the OS :) (why i use OSX)

hope this helps :)

[sactownbwoy]

The reason why macs "run" faster than other pc's is because Apple only supports a couple different combinations where as Windows has to accomodate thousands or even millions of different combinations of cpu's, gpu's, ram, chipsets etc.... If Apple allowed you to install OSX on any combination of parts you wanted like you can with Windows or linux they would suffer the same types of problems as windows. Mostly driver support, especially for legacy devices.

As it stands now there is nothing special about the hardware used in macs. About the only thing you get choice over is the hard drive and RAM.

[sporadicMotion]

Still, why does people think it performed better?
Another argument I've heard is that Apple uses components of higher manufacturing quality. Simply, made with better materials, something which perhaps could explain the higher prices???

welcome to marketing 101

[PeterQC]

I do believe that Apple make their own keyboards and mouse/trackpad. iSights too?

You buy Macs for the software anyway.

[mcavjame]

Apple don't design anything themselves, there is nothing special about any of it. It's an Intel proc on an Intel chipset, coupled with RAM and GPU of their choosing from parts available from other vendors.

I think you have to look at Apple as collaborative designers. Sure they use computer parts that are accessible by the industry but it is the way they work with other companies to ensure their products work.

Look at the current laptops. Not only are they concerned with the computing properties, but they have considered the aesthetics, construction, interface with the new trackpad, the move to greener production etc. All of these things are considerations that are made to develop a product. If they designed nothing, there would be no need to hire engineers and designers to work for them.

If you frequent Macrumors, Arn often lists the new patents Apple registers. One was registered on the 25th of December. It may be that you have a concept, then you have to find someone or some company to help you deliver that concept. It's the combination of good ideas, collaboration and good software.

Have you ever cracked open a Mac Pro? It's beautifully simple inside. It's a design that is thought out for easy installation, cooling and airflow. That configuration doesn't happen by accident.

[cogsinister]

hey :)

apple builds the case, keyboard caps etc and puts the whole thing together. they are pretty much no different from an everyday PC, the main difference is the OS :) (why i use OSX)

hope this helps :)

I think the case is made in China by some sub contracted factory,the keyboards are made by Mitsumi or Alps, Apple dont build them.......the laptops are built by Asus or Foxconn for Apple..........

[cogsinister]

I do believe that Apple make their own keyboards and mouse/trackpad. iSights too?

You buy Macs for the software anyway.

The trackpads prolly made by Syaptics or the othe touchpad maker, keyboards by Mitsumi.......

[paolo-]

As others mentioned, apple doesn't make most of the hardware in their computers.

Apple make a few different computers and sell a **** load of each. So they can get companies like nVidia and Intel to design stuff specifically for what they have in mind since those companies have the certainty to sell several millions of those chips. For example, the 9400m chipset in the MB was specifically designed for the MacBook. And it allows apple to rely less on Intel, thus differentiate their computers even more from the competition. It makes for a streamlined computer with a smaller chipset. That probably makes a computer with less bottlenecks but also a cheaper one. Mind you, it is probably only compatible with the hardware in the macbook the way it is implemented.

That's the way apple works, streamlined design for a faster product.

Mind you, saying that OS X is purely and extensively tested and accelerated for apple computers is absolute BS. The drivers on apple computers are usually of higher quality (mind you my external screen still isn't recognized properly and flickers at time) and the hardware is possibly better selected for what the computer will need to do.

But the os still doesn't talk faster to the hardware. IE still many layers between the end user and the hardware. Less than Windows but hackintoshes, unix PCs and Linux PCs and apple macs are all quite comparable in terms of performance. Mind you, grand central might just change that all up.

[DoFoT9]

I think the case is made in China by some sub contracted factory,the keyboards are made by Mitsumi or Alps, Apple dont build them.......the laptops are built by Asus or Foxconn for Apple..........

yea i kind of meant that, by build i meant they design it and contract it off, as opposed to say apple buying (from scratch) the CPU's, chipsets etcetc and putting it straight into the computer without any say in the design of it.

[djellison]

Is this true?

No - it is not.

It's the same chipsets, cpu's, graphics cards and ram as you'll find in any one of a dozen other laptops. They got first-call on a new CPU package for the MBA, but everyone else has it now as well. It's the same LCD screen you'll find as well in a dozen laptops. Optical drives? The one in this MBP is especially crappy compared to others I've used.

They design the motherboard to fit their cases - but that makes them no different to HP, Lenovo, Asus, Acer, Samsung, Sony, Alienware, Dell etc.

Apple computers are nothing special. Some say they might look better - that's a judgement call. The components, however, are the same as any other laptop. Don't believe the hype regarding OSX being some magical additive to hardware to make it more powerfull. Using Photoshop? You'll find XP to be faster than OSX on identical hardware.

http://www.overclock3d.net/news.php?type=3&id=574&page=1&desc=adobe_photoshop_cs3_beta_performance__osx_vs_xp
"Not only does Windows XP beat OSX in Photoshop CS3 performance, but it demolishes it by a wide margin."

AFX?
http://creativemac.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=589477&afterinter=true

Ouch.

[mcavjame]

http://www.overclock3d.net/news.php?type=3&id=574&page=1&desc=adobe_photoshop_cs3_beta_performance__osx_vs_xp
"Not only does Windows XP beat OSX in Photoshop CS3 performance, but it demolishes it by a wide margin."


Not to open a whole new can of worms in this thread, but the test run was done with a beta copy of CS3. Who knows what kind of tweaks occurred before the final release.

Here's a site that shows the opposite: http://hansv.com/cs3/

[djellison]

Here's a site that shows the opposite:

Oh - you can find a dozen reviews and they'll be split down the middle. Point being - OSX isn't some magic elixir of performance any more than XP is.

Mac's are just PC's with a different OS. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[t0mat0]

Oh - you can find a dozen reviews and they'll be split down the middle. Point being - OSX isn't some magic elixir of performance any more than XP is.

Mac's are just PC's with a different OS. Nothing more. Nothing less.

If Apple starts putting more proprietary hardware in, that logic won't hold. We'll see. But in general, yes, OS X is an OS. There are others out there.

[IJ Reilly]

+1... sort of

Once upon a time, they were made in (or at the very least assembled) in Cupertino... the OS has come a long way but the hardware is pretty generic. The reason they run faster than a "PC" counterpart is they use a more efficient OS based on BSD (UNIX)... if you install Linux or BSD on a PC, it will run more efficiently than if it were running Windows... for the most part.

AFAIK, Apple never assembled products in Cupertino. Maybe the Apple II, I'm not sure. For many years, they operated a large assembly plant in Elk Grove, near Sacramento, and another in Texas -- both long shuttered. Hardly anyone assembles electronic products in the US anymore; now it's all done by contractors in Asia and Mexico. They also used to have an assembly plant in Ireland (Cork, I believe). Not sure if that one is still in operation.

[djellison]

more proprietary hardware

More? Is there any currently?

[sporadicMotion]

AFAIK, Apple never assembled products in Cupertino. Maybe the Apple II, I'm not sure. For many years, they operated a large assembly plant in Elk Grove, near Sacramento, and another in Texas -- both long shuttered. Hardly anyone assembles electronic products in the US anymore; now it's all done by contractors in Asia and Mexico. They also used to have an assembly plant in Ireland (Cork, I believe). Not sure if that one is still in operation.

They still assembled in Cupertino into the very early 90's... but that was it. Board manufacturing could very well have been done elsewhere.

[doug in albq]

Every computer in the world is now manufactured in a handful of Chinese cities. Taiwan is not even in the manufacturing game any longer....My bullet-proof 900 mhz ibook G3 was manufactured in Taiwan, that thing is a strudy beater, throw it across the room and it still works. My 2.4ghz blackbook, made in China, seems a bit more fragile. But I have yet to give it the "toss across the room" test!" Why the world gave China so much manufacturing power is beyond me....

All the differences between Mac and PC are purely cosmetic.

which is exactly why the great Mac OS might someday be opened up to many more hardware manufacturers and PC end-users.....hmmmm?

Read my blog, and then let your fanboy rage towards me begin....it's OK, I am used to it!

http://dougitdesign.com/blog.html

[Ramius]

It may be that you have a concept, then you have to find someone or some company to help you deliver that concept. It's the combination of good ideas, collaboration and good software
I agree, but is this the case? Talking hardware only, gpu, cpu, ram etc, has Apple made other companies make their own designs?

That probably makes a computer with less bottlenecks but also a cheaper one. Mind you, it is probably only compatible with the hardware in the macbook the way it is implemented.
This might be the answer of what I'm asking. But is it actually true? Since the 9400M is purely made for the MacBook, does it feature less bottlenecks than it's PC-counterpart?
That's the way apple works, streamlined design for a faster product.
The opinions of the majority of posters here seems to go against this.


Don't believe the hype regarding OSX being some magical additive to hardware to make it more powerfull. Using Photoshop?
Alot. and I remember that when I used the previous generation of iMacs in school, Photoshop performed aweful compared to my PC at home. But I don't know what the reality is now, with CS4. I havent really gotten to use it that much on my MacBook. PS is simply not effecient enough to use without an external mouse. But since it now uses the GPU as well, perhaps it's faster? A friend at work said Adobe specifically designs Photoshop for the Mac, and only ports it over to the PC.


At last, many of you have convinced me that the hardware differences between a Mac and PC is mostly cosmetical. But quotes as such above ^^^^^ still makes me wonder what is actually the case. Cause they seem logical too. That for instance, since the GPU is designed specifically for the new MacBooks, isn't it only logical that they perform better, or more flawless than their counterpart PC-GPU's which is made for 30-40 different chipsets?



I will say though that that my experience with OSX is a good one. It does without doubt run much faster and is more effecient than Windows XP does. And the features included in OSX are much better than Windows. Things like iDVD with the awesome, absolutely awesome predefined menus. Ilife with applications like Garage Band, and iMovie beats Windows Movie Maker hands down.

I feel that with OSX, I dont need to download new programs. It's all there, and that is something I'll gladly pay a little bit more for when buying a Mac instead of a PC. And also the design of course.

My question of better quality components was dismissed. But with the actual machine itself, it's another story. The design of the new MacBook is in my opinion worth more money than other laptops out there. It never seems to astonish me that machines like the Sony Vaio, NEVER learns from Apple. They have a glossy top, and so does the Acer Ferrari, but it's still so bulky and ugly. And of course, the material in the new Mac. A Machine made entirely in an aluminum casing deserves a bit more money too. The build itself is without doubt better quality than most of the laptops out there.

So here you have a combination of a better operating system which is faster and have the best features. Modern marketleading design, and with quality materials that's more tolerant and looks better than most laptops. But is it worth all the extra cash?

Some extra cash for sure... but I recently saw a laptop, I believe it was from Acer, that had hardware almost twice as good. And it sold for half the price I payed for my MacBook. Which leads me to conclude that the MacBooks simply are more expensive, because they are design-products. In ever sense, in appearance, and whats on the screen.
If I got to say something to Steve Jobs, I would hope Apple could sacrifice some profit, to make their machines more powerfull and equal to their laptop counterparts. So you won't have to listen to nerds say that they got more powerfull hardware for half the price etc.

[penfool]

Why the world gave China so much manufacturing power is beyond me....

Becuase its very very cheap perhaps

[kasakka]

Alot. and I remember that when I used the previous generation of iMacs in school, Photoshop performed aweful compared to my PC at home. But I don't know what the reality is now, with CS4. I havent really gotten to use it that much on my MacBook. PS is simply not effecient enough to use without an external mouse. But since it now uses the GPU as well, perhaps it's faster? A friend at work said Adobe specifically designs Photoshop for the Mac, and only ports it over to the PC.

Seems to be the other way around. Adobe programs are a bit clunkier on OSX and the installers are obviously straight from Windows (and also designed by Satan :mad:). Photoshop is also the only program in CS4 that uses the GPU and in my experience it doesn't bring much benefit for most image editing tasks compared to running it all on the processor. I'd say the Adobe programs are getting too bloated and at some point they have to overhaul them.


That for instance, since the GPU is designed specifically for the new MacBooks, isn't it only logical that they perform better, or more flawless than their counterpart PC-GPU's which is made for 30-40 different chipsets?


It isn't. Nvidia is for example coming out with an Intel Atom based chipset that also uses the 9400M. It wouldn't make much sense for Nvidia to design something just for the Macbooks when there's tons of other manufacturers who would want to use the tech too.



I feel that with OSX, I dont need to download new programs. It's all there, and that is something I'll gladly pay a little bit more for when buying a Mac instead of a PC. And also the design of course.

Can't agree there. While many of the bundled programs are better on OSX than Windows, I still don't use most of them because there are much better alternatives as 3rd party apps.


My question of better quality components was dismissed. But with the actual machine itself, it's another story. The design of the new MacBook is in my opinion worth more money than other laptops out there. It never seems to astonish me that machines like the Sony Vaio, NEVER learns from Apple. They have a glossy top, and so does the Acer Ferrari, but it's still so bulky and ugly. And of course, the material in the new Mac. A Machine made entirely in an aluminum casing deserves a bit more money too. The build itself is without doubt better quality than most of the laptops out there.


Agreed. It's really amazing how all other laptops seem to be essentially the same as 5 years ago in terms of design.

[kastenbrust]

Actually apple does kind of make the hardware themselves for most components, ok so a cheap Dell may use a Core Duo Processor the same as apple in the Macbook air, both 2.6Ghz but the apple one has been specially designed for apple, with a smaller form factor, increased bus speed, massively increased buffer (2 -->10 MB) increased cooling capacity, all leading to higher operating speeds (25% higher!) despite the fact at the end of the day on paper theyre techincally the same processor, so you cant really say that a mac is just another pc because theyre not.

[nick9191]

They design everything. They pour huge amounts of money into R&D to get good looking, efficient products.

They commission other companies to manufacture it. They do deals with companies to create custom parts just for them, custom logic boards, processors, GPU's, etc. but they manufacture nothing.

Also bear in mind that despite everything being made in China, different companies offer different levels of quality control based on price. Just because a Dell and a Mac are made in China does not by any means equal that both products use the same parts and that both products have the same build quality. Apple's build quality beats other OEM's by a decent margin.

I should also point out that the "Apple optimises it's software for its hardware" statement is a complete myth.

[chocolaterabbit]

Why the world gave China so much manufacturing power is beyond me....


Pretty simple, because we wanted cheap products. We've only ourselves to blame for this, not companies, not China.

[Ramius]

ok so a cheap Dell may use a Core Duo Processor the same as apple in the Macbook air, both 2.6Ghz but the apple one has been specially designed for apple, with a smaller form factor, increased bus speed, massively increased buffer (2 -->10 MB) increased cooling capacity, all leading to higher operating speeds (25% higher!)
Say what now? So you're saying that... I was right all along? Though I don't believe that myself anymore.

Here you are saying that the same processor on a laptop and a MacBook, performs better on the Mac because it indeed is specially designed for the Mac. Which is contradicting to everything everyone else has been saying in this thread. There seems to be two very very different points of views here.

They design everything. They pour huge amounts of money into R&D to get good looking, efficient products.
So you say... if they design everything, that means they've designed their GPU by Nvidia? The CPU by Intel? These companies have just made them according to Apples designs?

Adobe programs are getting too bloated and at some point they have to overhaul them.
Could not agree more. Theres like 20 different ways to adjust light now for instance.
But if you don't like clunky programs, how come you still want third party software to give you the extra features. I think Apple has a huge grip on what users actually do with their programs, and make them accordingly.

Like Garage Band, I think thats the most perfect sound application ever. I think it is better than Qbasic and Logic just because it's adapted to what I do. Not what professionals do. This is where Apple shines, giving users what they want, getting rid of what they don't want.

[darkcurse]

Lets take the cake analogy. Everyone can use the same ingredients, flour, eggs, sugar, water, etc. But not everyone's cake tastes the same. And certainly not everyone can bake a good cake. In this case Apple are using the different parts, CPU/Chipset/GPU/etc and designing the complete system around those parts. Seeing which part works with which and making sure that they have the "proper" drivers for the parts which they do use. They design their logic board which is very important. The length of the pathways and the layout of it does contribute to the performance of the system. So yeah in a way they do bake a good cake :)

[kasakka]

But if you don't like clunky programs, how come you still want third party software to give you the extra features. I think Apple has a huge grip on what users actually do with their programs, and make them accordingly.

Like Garage Band, I think thats the most perfect sound application ever. I think it is better than Qbasic and Logic just because it's adapted to what I do. Not what professionals do. This is where Apple shines, giving users what they want, getting rid of what they don't want.

I've never liked that Microsoft or Apple decide what we should do with each program. When you need something more and it's not there, you always have to resort to 3rd party software that has the options or features you need. In many cases the 3rd party software developers have also figured out a faster, easier way to do things even with a more complex feature set.

[nick9191]

So you say... if they design everything, that means they've designed their GPU by Nvidia? The CPU by Intel? These companies have just made them according to Apples designs?

No some components will be standard across the board, the CPU, the HDD. The logic board will be custom (as with any OEM), Apple will also overclock and underclock certain components (CPU, GPU) to meet the thermal environment of a product. The 9400 in a MBA is not as fast as the 9400 in a Macbook because Apple underclocked it to avoid overheating/power consumption. The 8800GS in an iMac is underclocked, and likely the 9600 is underclocked as well. The CPU in the top end iMac is overclocked.