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View Full Version : If Apple releases Net-book at MW 09 will you buy?




McGilli
Dec 26, 2008, 06:24 PM
Ok MBA owners....

If Apple releases a 'net-book' - which is basically a miniature version of a MBA at Macworld in January - who will buy one? And what would it need to have, and at what price to make you consider you buying it (since we paid mucho $ for our MBA'a)



iGuardian
Dec 26, 2008, 06:25 PM
I don't have a Macbook air, but as an iPhone owner, I wouldn't buy one. Too much overlap in functionality (for my uses at least.)

Techguy172
Dec 26, 2008, 06:29 PM
I would not buy one. I think they are just pointless, I'd rather have a fully featured computer instead, I think apple hit the nail on head with the Air and it's best your going to get.

Ironic
Dec 26, 2008, 06:43 PM
Maybe or a iPhone nano as ATT has 3G iphones for 99 bucks ;)

bunit
Dec 26, 2008, 07:50 PM
I would consider one if it was around $400 dollars. Just would be neat to have and that is what other net-books are going for.:apple:

Mactagonist
Dec 26, 2008, 08:02 PM
Nope, not going to happen. The iPhone is Apple's netbook. I may be wrong, but I dont think so.

aaquib
Dec 26, 2008, 08:22 PM
Under $600, yes.

But knowing Apple, it's not happening. Especially at $600.

NoSmokingBandit
Dec 26, 2008, 08:24 PM
I would not buy one. I think they are just pointless, I'd rather have a fully featured computer instead, I think apple hit the nail on head with the Air and it's best your going to get.

LMAO! Since when is the air considered "full featured"?

tubbymac
Dec 26, 2008, 08:30 PM
Apple won't release a netbook at MW09 and no I wouldn't buy it. After going through a lot of notebooks, screen size does matter. 8 inch is way too small, 10 is cramped, 11 starts getting useable, 12 is almost comfortable, and 13 is the sweet spot.

McGilli
Dec 26, 2008, 08:34 PM
I feel that Apple has really cut itself off with the MBA crowd. We pay a lot of $ for a slim, 'with less features' notebook - and then someone like me that also paid $300 for an iPhone will have a hard time paying much more for a computer. (i find the iphone to be a great 'small computer')

But I would pay $700 for a 8" mac net-book.

Techguy172
Dec 26, 2008, 08:46 PM
LMAO! Since when is the air considered "full featured"?

Compared to a netbook sure, It's only missing a few ports not a big deal to some people. At least it has a decent screen size and a full sized backlight keyboard.

zer0tails
Dec 26, 2008, 08:52 PM
I feel that Apple has really cut itself off with the MBA crowd. We pay a lot of $ for a slim, 'with less features' notebook - and then someone like me that also paid $300 for an iPhone will have a hard time paying much more for a computer. (i find the iphone to be a great 'small computer')

But I would pay $700 for a 8" mac net-book.

Well, Apple could always lose the macbook air if it wanted to, just like the G4 cube.

Cynicalone
Dec 26, 2008, 08:54 PM
I don't see this happening. And really I would rather just use my Air. Now if Apple want's to make a Mac Tablet I might be interested.

SFStateStudent
Dec 26, 2008, 09:14 PM
I definitely would, and I would give it to the War Department...:p

NoSmokingBandit
Dec 26, 2008, 10:53 PM
I would not buy one. I think they are just pointless, I'd rather have a fully featured computer instead, I think apple hit the nail on head with the Air and it's best your going to get.

Compared to a netbook sure, It's only missing a few ports not a big deal to some people. At least it has a decent screen size and a full sized backlight keyboard.
You said you would rather have a full featured computer than a netbook, so what does the Air have that a netbook wouldnt, other than size related things such as the screen/keyboard?
The netbook would essentially be an Air with a smaller screen, but you say the air has more features :confused::confused:

nope7308
Dec 27, 2008, 12:09 AM
Apple won't release a netbook at MW09 and no I wouldn't buy it. After going through a lot of notebooks, screen size does matter. 8 inch is way too small, 10 is cramped, 11 starts getting useable, 12 is almost comfortable, and 13 is the sweet spot.

I agree 110%

Besides, from Apple's perspective, I just don't think the juice is worth the squeeze. That is, I don't know if the netbook market is presently large enough to warrant Apple's interest, time, and money. It would be difficult for Apple to market themselves as a 'premium' computer in a market that's characterized by 'budget' computers.

fteoath64
Dec 27, 2008, 07:34 AM
Not a Netbook. The AIR does a wonderful job already. But iTablet (no keyboard, BYO wireless keyboard), full bluetooth implementation A2DP and superb audio recording capability, 120GB sata HD, 8 inch or 10 inch model, 7 hours battery life. This will complement my AIR and iPhone (I need RJ45 Ethernet jack). :(

Tallest Skil
Dec 27, 2008, 07:39 AM
This is what I want:

MacTablet

13.3" multitouch screen
MacBook Air internals
No ODD
slab format (none of this rotating screen crap)
MagSafe, 2 USB, Audio in/out

$1,999

And there is no possible way that Apple will release anything that even remotely looks like a MacTablet at MacWorld.

CastrolSyntec
Dec 27, 2008, 07:43 AM
No netbook for me, I need something with Brains and Brawn - like my MBP! :D

I would like to see apple make one tho, just to show how good :apple: are!
Apple rules!!!

Techguy172
Dec 27, 2008, 08:26 AM
You said you would rather have a full featured computer than a netbook, so what does the Air have that a netbook wouldnt, other than size related things such as the screen/keyboard?
The netbook would essentially be an Air with a smaller screen, but you say the air has more features :confused::confused:

Such as a more powerful processor a better GPU, More ram a larger hard drive. LED Screen, Aluminum case, Backlight keyboard. Should I continue?

I think that was a ridiculous question because you know apple isn't going to give you all the Airs features at such a low price tag.

CastrolSyntec
Dec 27, 2008, 08:28 AM
Such as a more powerful processor a better GPU, More ram a larger hard drive. LED Screen, Aluminum case, Backlight keyboard. Should I continue?

I think that was a ridiculous question because you know apple isn't going to give you all the Airs features at such a low price tag.

LOW PRICE TAG? haha, that made my day. Apple would not release any netbook in demand with a low price tag!!!:D

Techguy172
Dec 27, 2008, 08:32 AM
LOW PRICE TAG? haha, that made my day. Apple would not release any netbook in demand with a low price tag!!!:D

Then it wouldn't be a netbook would it? Nebooks are cheap, that's why they were made a cheap small computer to use for simple tasks.

Tallest Skil
Dec 27, 2008, 08:33 AM
Then it wouldn't be a netbook would it? Nebooks are cheap, that's why they were made a cheap small computer to use for simple tasks.

No, netbooks are small. An Apple netbook conforming to the size and hardware of current netbooks would be around twice as much and still be called a netbook by Apple and the media.

Techguy172
Dec 27, 2008, 08:36 AM
No, netbooks are small. An Apple netbook conforming to the size and hardware of current netbooks would be around twice as much and still be called a netbook by Apple and the media.

Read the Definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netbook). If apple made a small computer it wouldn't be a netbook it would something totally different, thats what I'm trying to say! They won't make a netbook EVER! if they want a small computer the will make one but not cheap and with more features.

mcavjame
Dec 27, 2008, 08:37 AM
no. I'm already compromised with power as it is using my Macbook. It's a niche market to be sure... maybe it would be for students who just need something small to take notes in class.

Tallest Skil
Dec 27, 2008, 08:40 AM
Read the Definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netbook). If apple made a small computer it wouldn't be a netbook it would something totally different, thats what I'm trying to say! They won't make a netbook EVER! if they want a small computer the will make one but not cheap and with more features.

Apple has been known to completely ignore established definitions when creating their products. The iPod and iPhone come to mind.

As does the MacBook Air, which doesn't seem to fit the definition of ultraportable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraportable), yet Apple and the media continue to flaunt it as such.

Tosser
Dec 27, 2008, 08:42 AM
No I wouldn't.
If Apple made a "netbook" it would (of course) be their take on it: Limited (more than necessary), bulky, huge-bezelled, and would be tied-in to the iTunes Store akin to the iPhone and iPod Touch – in essence be nothing but a huge iPod Touch with a keyboard: Useless to anyone but the people that watch videos constantly but really don't "do" much else. I really don't need a 10" Touch.

Compared to a netbook sure, It's only missing a few ports not a big deal to some people. At least it has a decent screen size and a full sized backlight keyboard.

LOL, so a "fully featured" computer to you is what exactly? Since it's not "fully featured", lacking ports (really lacking ports), what do you consider "fully featured"? A full size lit-up keyboard makes it "fully featured"?

It makes me wonder what you'd call the MBP, a Thinkpad, MB, or even worse: The WhiteBook.

Techguy172
Dec 27, 2008, 08:47 AM
Apple has been known to completely ignore established definitions when creating their products. The iPod and iPhone come to mind.

As does the MacBook Air, which doesn't seem to fit the definition of ultraportable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraportable), yet Apple and the media continue to flaunt it as such.

The only reason we call them by those names is because there is no other suitable name. The iPhone is nothing really different from a regular smartphone except with touch screen and some better media capability. Apple never called the Air an Ultra portable it's meant to beat the ultraportable so they made something new.

Tosser
Dec 27, 2008, 08:48 AM
The only reason we call them by those names is because there is no other suitable name. The iPhone is nothing really different from a regular smartphone except with touch screen and some better media capability.
And you forgot: Quite a bit less capabilites in the smartphone-department.

Tallest Skil
Dec 27, 2008, 08:50 AM
Apple never called the Air an Ultra portable it's meant to beat the ultraportable so they made something new.

Mmmhmm...

Techguy172
Dec 27, 2008, 08:51 AM
Mmmhmm...

Yeah but what else does it say, "Ultra unlike anything else".

cherry su
Dec 27, 2008, 08:54 AM
if it has nVidia's new ion platform then i might consider

Tosser
Dec 27, 2008, 08:54 AM
Yeah but what else does it say, "Ultra unlike anything else".

Eh, say what?

That has absolute nothing to with them calling it ultraportable or not. If they made it green and called it "ultra green" they suddenly wouldn't have called it "ultraportable" in your book, because they also called it something else?

Tallest Skil
Dec 27, 2008, 08:54 AM
Yeah but what else does it say, "Ultra unlike anything else".

They're redefining the genre... just like the iPod and iPhone.

Techguy172
Dec 27, 2008, 08:58 AM
Eh, say what?

That has absolute nothing to with them calling it ultraportable or not. If they made it green and called it "ultra green" they suddenly wouldn't have called it "ultraportable" in your book, because they also called it something else?

They're redefining the genre... just like the iPod and iPhone.

Ok Fine your right. But it still won't happen and I wouldn't call the Air ultraportable, because it's the same size as my macbook and that's cetainly not ultraportable.

I'm getting pretty sick of arguing about something that won't happen.

justit
Dec 27, 2008, 08:59 AM
If they could build a keyboard that the iPhone/Touch snaps into, I've got my "netbook" :)

Ironic
Dec 27, 2008, 08:59 AM
Ultra Uber, :)

Tallest Skil
Dec 27, 2008, 09:01 AM
Ok Fine your right. But it still won't happen and I wouldn't call the Air ultraportable, because it's the same size as my macbook and that's cetainly not ultraportable.

I'm getting pretty sick of arguing about something that won't happen.

That's my personal dislike of the MacBook Air, too; the bezel. If they could just make the fricking bezel the size of the old MacBook Pro bezel, THEN it would be a little nicer. Of course, they've increased the size of the bezel on the newest MacBook Pro, which is a farce, to be sure.

Techguy172
Dec 27, 2008, 09:04 AM
That's my personal dislike of the MacBook Air, too; the bezel. If they could just make the fricking bezel the size of the old MacBook Pro bezel, THEN it would be a little nicer. Of course, they've increased the size of the bezel on the newest MacBook Pro, which is a farce, to be sure.

Yeah but I'd bet that's how they can make the computer so thin, Right. They have more room to work around with. That's what would happen with the "netbook". Apple would make a small screen but it still be larger so they could fit more in it.

Tosser
Dec 27, 2008, 09:36 AM
Yeah but I'd bet that's how they can make the computer so thin, Right. They have more room to work around with. That's what would happen with the "netbook". Apple would make a small screen but it still be larger so they could fit more in it.

Actually, I don't think it's about fitting more as such. It's about those bloody tapered edges combining with wanting it to look "thin", making it impossible to taper it apart from outside of what's actually in it.

The bezels on the MBP isn't tapered as the MBA, but it seems like they were thinking "in order to fit this web cam we have to make a rather big forehead on the thing", and then someone thought down the line "Well, it has a big forehead and I like symmetry, so we should make the sides and bottom equally wide so it matches the top".

Btw, not only me, but your arguments as well is proving how the thinness-obsession has been taken too far.

Techguy172
Dec 27, 2008, 09:41 AM
Actually, I don't think it's about fitting more as such. It's about those bloody tapered edges combining with wanting it to look "thin", making it impossible to taper it apart from outside of what's actually in it.

The bezels on the MBP isn't tapered as the MBA, but it seems like they were thinking "in order to fit this web cam we have to make a rather big forehead on the thing", and then someone thought down the line "Well, it has a big forehead and I like symmetry, so we should make the sides and bottom equally wide so it matches the top".

Btw, not only me, but your arguments as well is proving how the thinness-obsession has been taken too far.

Yeah things don't need to be that thin, About the webcam thing that's what I meant It would stupid it it wasn't symmetrical.

The Tapered edges do look nice but I would rather have a smaller computer. On my Brothers 12" the bezels are very small and I really wish apple would do that.

Tosser
Dec 27, 2008, 09:45 AM
Yeah things don't need to be that thin, About the webcam thing that's what I meant It would stupid it it wasn't symmetrical.

The Tapered edges do look nice but I would rather have a smaller computer. On my Brothers 12" the bezels are very small and I really wish apple would do that.

Yeah, it would certainly make it look good again. But then again, they have now putten the bezels to use: How else would you get that oh-so endearing black glossy frame to stick?

Techguy172
Dec 27, 2008, 09:57 AM
Yeah, it would certainly make it look good again. But then again, they have now putten the bezels to use: How else would you get that oh-so endearing black glossy frame to stick?

Yeah, I don't really mind it so much on the New MacBooks, but on the Air you can tell it's just too much.

rjphoto
Dec 27, 2008, 11:30 AM
Me, I would use an Apple Netbook. Whether I buy one depends on Apple's Price point and configurations.

I played with a buddy's Dell Mini9 and didn't have any objections to it's functionablity, usability or configuration.

I can see the market for the road warriors that needs more functions than a smart phone but lighter than a laptop.

Fully functioning programs for presentations and document creation and modification on the go.

I've spent a lot of time in meetings and needed to pull up things off of the network to show on the big screen. An iPhone won't get it in that situation.

My little ole PB12" has served me well in those cases. The Mini9 did fine for the same purpose. I was impressed. When I used it I told my buddy I wished Apple would make one of like it.

GoCubsGo
Dec 27, 2008, 11:31 AM
I would consider it, but then it seems that my Air would sit around doing nothing so I am not entirely sure I'd blow my wad on a netbook now.

Pixellated
Dec 27, 2008, 11:32 AM
I'm fine with my Acer Aspire One Hackintosh. It's got:
160GB HDD
3.3GB RAM
Leopard 10.5.6
Logic Express etc...

It just works...

rjphoto
Dec 27, 2008, 11:35 AM
I would consider it, but then it seems that my Air would sit around doing nothing so I am not entirely sure I'd blow my wad on a netbook now.
sell the air and pocket the difference.

dschiller
Dec 27, 2008, 11:48 AM
I'm fine with my Acer Aspire One Hackintosh. It's got:
160GB HDD
3.3GB RAM
Leopard 10.5.6
Logic Express etc...

It just works...

I wouldn't get one for a similar reason: I got bored with waiting for Apple to release a netbook, so now I'm running OS X Leopard on an MSI Wind. 10'' LED screen, 1.6GHz Atom processor, 2GB of RAM, 250GB HDD, fully functioning audio, WiFi, etc. More than enough for surfing the internet and checking emails when I'm away from my iMac. And it actually has three times as many USB ports as the MBA!

The Toddfather
Dec 27, 2008, 11:49 AM
LMAO! Since when is the air considered "full featured"?

Are you an MBA owner?

MatLane
Dec 27, 2008, 11:53 AM
I dont think i would buy a net book



And i cant really see a point in apple releasing a Netbook

mac jones
Dec 27, 2008, 12:01 PM
Toys

Personally, besides the cost (an obvious incentive) I don't see why people are buying these netbooks.

I've looked at several and they were all junk (reflecting their price) . I'm also at a loss at an intended use for them.
If there was a function that they could perform as a cheap secondary device then they prehaps would be useful. But it's a mistake to 'invent' a use for them just because they are so cheap.

they certainly are not a viable everyday (or everyhour :D ) machine .

And those trackpads! :D

Tosser
Dec 27, 2008, 12:04 PM
Are you an MBA owner?

You might as well go "Unless you own a two seater car, you don't know if it's a lorry". In other words, it doesn't matter if that two-seater is nice (well, some people think so), it's still not a lorry, a van, a station wagon or a four seater. It's still not a "family car" no matter if you personally can make do with two seats.

aviationalyours
Dec 27, 2008, 02:14 PM
Apple spends say (for example, don't chew my head(s) of) 500$ for a MBP and sell it to ya for $1400. their profit is $200. They spend the rest on paying attention to details and making it perfect. If it isn't perfect it aint made by the devil his steveness steve jobs nor would it be made by :apple:. You can't spend 400 bucks on a netbook just to get the details right. And the display has to be "gorgeous" with a "full sized keyboard". That's why I love Apple.

Did that make sense?

iMacmatician
Dec 27, 2008, 03:48 PM
This is what I want:

MacTablet

13.3" multitouch screen
MacBook Air internals
No ODD
slab format (none of this rotating screen crap)
MagSafe, 2 USB, Audio in/out

$1,999

And there is no possible way that Apple will release anything that even remotely looks like a MacTablet at MacWorld.This is what I want:

"iWrite"

6" multi-touch display
Better hardware than iPod touch
USB, micro-DVI, headphone, speakers, camera
iPhone OS Extended (not Mac OS X) with some sort of multi-tasking
iLife mobile, iWork mobile, Preview mobile, more editing features in existing apps
$499~$699And the rumors don't mention any specific dates, and the lack of recent rumors (besides the questionable "iPod stick") means there most likely won't be such a device at MWSF.

McGilli
Dec 27, 2008, 05:59 PM
MY reason for posting this thread is that last night -for the first time in about a year - I laid eyes on my Fujitsu P7010 XP laptop -which for a couple of years was my baby. It's a 10" notebook, and when I put it beside the MBA I realized how big the MBA is. Sure the Fuji is a lot thicker - but just as easy to pack in a backpack.

and honestly - I wished I could have a MBA with at the most - a 10" screen. That is all I really want. If they made an Air with the 10" screen - I would buy it asap.

ibosie
Dec 27, 2008, 07:24 PM
Ok MBA owners....

If Apple releases a 'net-book' - which is basically a miniature version of a MBA at Macworld in January - who will buy one? And what would it need to have, and at what price to make you consider you buying it (since we paid mucho $ for our MBA'a)

Nope. The Air is perfect for my needs. I want it to get less heavy but not less featured.

shokunin
Dec 27, 2008, 11:06 PM
Rev A Netbook, heck no, it'll have:

Gray lines across the screen
Flickering screen
overheating processor
faulty nVidia graphics chip
exploding battery

Rev B Netbook could possibly fix two of the above but add 2 more unforeseen problems.

Sorry I'm snarky, due to getting a headache looking at the lines and flickering on Rev B MBA.

Vanilla
Dec 28, 2008, 03:53 AM
Toys

Personally, besides the cost (an obvious incentive) I don't see why people are buying these netbooks.

I've looked at several and they were all junk (reflecting their price) . I'm also at a loss at an intended use for them.
If there was a function that they could perform as a cheap secondary device then they prehaps would be useful. But it's a mistake to 'invent' a use for them just because they are so cheap.

they certainly are not a viable everyday (or everyhour :D ) machine .

And those trackpads! :D

I bought a PC World advent 4213 for my 7-year old daughter who loves it to bits. She largely uses it for surfing the web and a bit of light WP. It was cheap to purchase, it's very light & compact and reasonably well-built. My wife also tends to grab the Advent now rather than the MacBook we also have. One further point - my wife also has an iPhone and says she prefers surfing on the advent as the screen size of the iPhone doesnt work for her when surfing.

Personally, I stick happily with the MacBook but if Apple could come out with a Mac NetBook/tablet that was reasonably priced I'd pounce on it in a heartbeat to keep my house microsoft free. For now though, the only option for a cheap, compact, light web-surfing unit that has a screen real-estate between an iPhone and a 'normal' laptop is either a linux or windows-based OS.

Willis
Dec 28, 2008, 03:57 AM
You should have done a poll for this.

I wouldn't buy one simply because I'm not it's target audience.

Not to mention, it would eat into the sales of MB and MBA. It wouldn't be in Apple's interest to do so

Ironic
Dec 28, 2008, 09:15 AM
LMAO! Since when is the air considered "full featured"?
The Air is my only Mac, I had a MBP and a new Alum MB, this is full featured, I have no problems using it as such.

alphaod
Dec 28, 2008, 09:27 AM
Most definitely will buy, but I see such a computer unlikely.

Tosser
Dec 28, 2008, 09:39 AM
The Air is my only Mac, I had a MBP and a new Alum MB, this is full featured, I have no problems using it as such.

You're right.

By the same token, a motorcycle is a family car. I mean, I don't have any use for anything else to do my shopping or drive my small family around.

Or put another way: A pda is a "fully featured" computer, the iPhone is a "fully featured" smartphone and a dorm room is a home fit for an entire family.

Foxglove9
Dec 28, 2008, 10:27 AM
Since selling my EEE PC recently I've been waiting to see if Apple releases its own Netbook. I'll probably hold out till the summer. If they don't release something equivalent to the MSI Wind and around the same price then I'm going with a Wind and hacking it like I did with my EEE PC.

Or maybe they'll have some other cool gadget.

Airforcekid
Dec 28, 2008, 10:55 AM
:apple:I would buy it that day!:apple:

Clix Pix
Dec 28, 2008, 12:23 PM
The primary reason I would consider a Netbook if Apple produces one is to use it for importing digital images from my memory cards while out in the field. I've looked at the current generation of Netbooks and am not too impressed -- aside from that I don't want to use a Windows machine again. I've considered buying an Asus with Linux, which would take care of the Windows issue, but I am really not all that familiar with Linux. I have a first-gen MacBook Air, which I love and would continue to use that for everything else (email, web-surfing, etc., on a trip or at home. The Netbook would ONLY be for handling digital images on the road.

sanPietro98
Dec 28, 2008, 01:27 PM
If Apple releases a 'net-book' - which is basically a miniature version of a MBA

Why don't people get it? A MBA is not an oversized net-book. It has all the "features" of a macbook. It is just has lower performance specs. There is a difference.

But no. I will not buy a net-book. If you want a low-profile computer, the MBA is perfect. If you want a small device for the 'net, then get a iPhone or iPod Touch.

bobbleheadbob
Dec 28, 2008, 01:57 PM
Ok MBA owners....

If Apple releases a 'net-book' - which is basically a miniature version of a MBA at Macworld in January - who will buy one? And what would it need to have, and at what price to make you consider you buying it (since we paid mucho $ for our MBA'a)

I just bought an Air, so my answer would be "no".

I'm hoping they do release something new that ships that week. Maybe even a software release.

iBookG4user
Dec 28, 2008, 02:04 PM
As a MacBook Air owner, no I would not buy one. Honestly, the MacBook Air is portable enough for my purposes and the only thing that they could improve on it would be a matte display. Unfortunately I don't see that happening in either the Netbook or the MacBook Air.

queshy
Dec 28, 2008, 05:07 PM
Apple won't release a Netbook. And if they do, I'll keep my air.

NoSmokingBandit
Dec 28, 2008, 05:09 PM
Why don't people get it? A MBA is not an oversized net-book. It has all the "features" of a macbook. It is just has lower performance specs. There is a difference.


Lol. No, the MBA does not have all the features of the macbook. It has one usb, no line-in, no ethernet plug, no cd drive...
The MBA is a mix between a netbook and an actual notebook. Why some continue to call the Air a substitute for an actual netbook is beyond me. Netbooks are designed to be tiny and low-powered, built only for the purpose of going online. The Air is not this. The air's body size is actually bigger than the macbook when talking about width x depth. You can trow an EeePc in a purse or handbag, you cant do that with the Air.

Summary:
THE AIR IS NOT A NETBOOK. IT IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR A NETBOOK.

xparaparafreakx
Dec 28, 2008, 09:02 PM
Nope. I love my 13" screen. Anything smaller would have to fit in my pocket.

NT1440
Dec 28, 2008, 09:07 PM
Tosser, what is your definition of fully featured?

what is the industry definition?

Tosser
Dec 29, 2008, 12:10 AM
Tosser, what is your definition of fully featured?

what is the industry definition?

It's not a static definition in my book, nor in the industry. It depends on what else is out there. Sort of an "average" thing. Apple used to call "fully featured" laptops "full fledged" that was around when Apple laptops had two USBs (close to the ones that had three) had an optical drive, firewire, modem, ethernet dvi-port (today that could be hdmi et al), and so on.

If you remove most of what is standard on basically any other offerings out there, if you remove so much that there aren't even as much in it as the cheaper slimmed downed step-down ("netbooks" as of present) one cannot claim them to be "fully featured" even if they o have a little more power and a slightly bigger keyboard than the step-down. It's like calling the 13" glassbook the "epitome of audio workstations".

In essense, people who call the MBA "fully featured" focus on two or three things: 1) It has a full size keyboard, not a 95 percent-one. It has a 13" inch screen (as if that mattered in this context), and 3) it has more power than a netbook (which, for all intents and purposes) is a negative comparison one which shouldn't even come into play when we talk "fully featured").
The reality is, that "fully featured" is an organic "size". Today, one could even argue that it's not "fully featured" unless it also have an inbuilt card reader, and - sigh - blueray.

Full Size ≠ Fully Featured.

Maven1975
Dec 29, 2008, 12:20 AM
I would rather have Apple spend R&D dollars on the iPhone. It makes much more sense than delivering half baked machines (Like MBA Rev. A). SSD will continue to decline in price making the Air one hell of a machine for the money.

I consider the Rev.B Air full featured for my computing needs. I cant tell you the last time I have actually used a ..

Firewire Port, Slow CD/DVD Drive, and Ethernet Port.

I guess if I were in the Audio/Video business, the Pro would be the next stop for me. However, with a Mac Pro at home with wireless N, I am more than satisfied.

Tosser
Dec 29, 2008, 12:30 AM
I would rather have Apple spend R&D dollars on the iPhone. It makes much more sense than delivering half baked machines (Like MBA Rev. A). SSD will continue to decline in price making the Air one hell of a machine for the money.

I consider the Rev.B Air full featured for my computing needs. I cant tell you the last time I have actually used a ..
That's the problem. If it were about your (or my, for that matter) individual computer needs, the words make no sense any more. Some people could make do with an iPhone or a Palm Pilot, but it wouldn't make either a "fully featured laptop".

Firewire Port, Slow CD/DVD Drive, and Ethernet Port.
Again, it doesn't matter if you personally have no use for it. "Fully featured" laptops have "all" the features so people can pick and choose which to use without having to workaround the things not available on the damn thing, hence FULLY featured.


I guess if I were in the Audio/Video business, the Pro would be the next stop for me. However, with a Mac Pro at home with wireless N, I am more than satisfied.

You should be. However, the MB "pro" is rather useless in the video and audio business, what with the Agere chipset and the lack of support of firewire in the expresscard slot, and since very few of us make enough money to hire people to carry around a macpro, a screen, and huge battery banks, the Mac Pro isn't really made to be used in the field.

Maven1975
Dec 29, 2008, 01:44 AM
That's the problem. If it were about your (or my, for that matter) individual computer needs, the words make no sense any more. Some people could make do with an iPhone or a Palm Pilot, but it wouldn't make either a "fully featured laptop".


Again, it doesn't matter if you personally have no use for it. "Fully featured" laptops have "all" the features so people can pick and choose which to use without having to workaround the things not available on the damn thing, hence FULLY featured.




You should be. However, the MB "pro" is rather useless in the video and audio business, what with the Agere chipset and the lack of support of firewire in the expresscard slot, and since very few of us make enough money to hire people to carry around a macpro, a screen, and huge battery banks, the Mac Pro isn't really made to be used in the field.

"Fully Featured" = Includes everything the buyer/user needs. Period

Firewire is on the way out. USB 3 is on the way in.

DVD/CD is on the way out. Direct software delivery and Flash on the way in.

The computer industry is changing rapidly. Job's himself is a huge supporter of web based application and sees a world of stripped mobile devices relying on the cloud/servers to do the heavy lifting.

I understand your frustration, but you do have other options out there.

fteoath64
Dec 29, 2008, 04:45 AM
One thing is for sure. When Apple releases a iTablet device, it will have millions of buyers if that is priced below $1000. Target would be $699 and $899.

Our hope is that it will compliment the existing devices we have like MBA and iPhone. Its intention is to only substitute such devices for a short period of time for specific purposes. eg I want it to allow me to scribble quick notes while its voice recorder records all audio procedings in a meeting. I am using iRiver recorder to do this for a long time now, it is just a hassle to carry 2 devices. iphone still cannot do this...

Tosser
Dec 29, 2008, 08:06 AM
"Fully Featured" = Includes everything the buyer/user needs. Period

No, that's simplifying it too much. Although that it's true, it only adheres to a "general" consumer, not the individual. Hence, a PocketPC will never be a "fully featured laptop". However, if you take what you say and apply it to said individual, it certainly can be, and it has thus lost all meaning.

Firewire is on the way out. USB 3 is on the way in.
Says who? The only company that seems to be outphasing FW is Apple. FW-equipped shipped laptops are on the rise, and there are no heir to take over (No, not USB 3.0 – it may be faster, but it's one-way, and can't do half of what firewire can).

You claim that USB is "on the way in"? Name me one computer which ships with it. And of course, name me one pro audio interface manufacturer who will switch from FW to USB 3.0 when USB 3 comes out. Hell, do the same with a manufacturer of pro video gear.
Impossible? Well, then don't go about claiming those things.

DVD/CD is on the way out. Direct software delivery and Flash on the way in.
Yet your beloved MBA still shipped with optical discs and not a card reader with the install dmg on, say, an SDHC-card.

Further, although CD sales are going down, it's very seldomly possible to buy CD quality (or lack thereof) on anything but optical discs. We don't all want 128kbps MP3/4s.

The computer industry is changing rapidly. Job's himself is a huge supporter of web based application and sees a world of stripped mobile devices relying on the cloud/servers to do the heavy lifting.
So? There are some things that are downright impossible to do through the web by todays standards and speeds. It doesn't matter how it may look in twenty years – unless of course you intend to use your recently purchased computer in twenty years? Quite the investment. I buy computers for the world of today, since I need them today – not twenty years down the line.
Nor would I want sensitive and/or work related stuff uploaded to some third party – even if it was possible to do audio, video, PS'ing (which I don't) over the web.

I understand your frustration, but you do have other options out there.
Of course I do. But that doesn't mean that then everything is not only a-okay, but excellent over here in the Apple-fold.

The Toddfather
Dec 29, 2008, 10:23 AM
...The only company that seems to be outphasing FW is Apple...

Anyone remember floppy disks, Apple was the first to phase them out.

...You claim that USB is "on the way in"? Name me one computer which ships with it...

I haven't seen a computer without USB in the last several years.:rolleyes:

Tosser
Dec 29, 2008, 10:29 AM
Anyone remember floppy disks, Apple was the first to phase them out.

Quite the misrepresentation. The floppy disk had a much superior heir: The optical disc.

Firewire does not have an heir not even if we would be so ignorant as to claim that USB 3.0 was better.


I haven't seen a computer without USB in the last several years.:rolleyes:

Don't be daft. It was VERY obvious that I meant USB 3.0 [shakes head in disbelief] :rolleyes:

justit
Dec 29, 2008, 10:54 AM
another 'apple abandons firewire' thread? Last I checked it was still in every product line except 2: the MBA and Alu MB. If they drop it in the upcoming iMacs you have a real discussion, but until then this is a mute point as all they've done is segregated the userbase.

Tosser
Dec 29, 2008, 01:50 PM
another 'apple abandons firewire' thread? Last I checked it was still in every product line except 2: the MBA and Alu MB. If they drop it in the upcoming iMacs you have a real discussion, but until then this is a mute point as all they've done is segregated the userbase.

Really? Unless I buy last years technology (the WhiteBook) I cannot buy an Apple laptop with a firewire connection that actually works with most audio interfaces out there. One of them uses an inferior chipset that makes it all hit'n'miss, another doesn't have it anymore and the third (the MBA) was born without it, and the new screens doesn't have it either. So you're saying we should "wait" because Apple haven't planned to ditch it? Are you freaking kidding everyone?

justit
Dec 29, 2008, 02:01 PM
Are you freaking kidding everyone?

easy there, its just a tech forum :D

They've segregated the userbase. In other words they've decided now that firewire is not meant for the mass consumer purchasing the Alu MB. If you're into "most audio interfaces" you're not in that sweet spot, and they've made that calculated decision.

So what's there to kid? I'm simply outlining the facts on the ground.

Tosser
Dec 29, 2008, 02:03 PM
easy there, its just a tech forum :D
Haha, sorry :p

They've segregated the userbase. In other words they've decided now that firewire is not meant for the mass consumer purchasing the Alu MB. If you're into "most audio interfaces" you're not in that sweet spot, and they've made that calculated decision.
It's not about "most" it's about "a working" (audio) interface.

So what's there to kid? I'm simply outlining the facts on the ground.

Which facts?

aswitcher
Dec 29, 2008, 02:06 PM
Under a thousand US$, under 1.5KG, and able to run iLife and iWorks, yes.

statik13
Dec 29, 2008, 05:29 PM
Definitely would buy one. I've got an iMac at home for all the heavy lifting. I just need something light, durable & inexpensive to offload pictures and do e-mail while on holidays or to cart around to work or school. If Apple doesn't come out with one soon I'll be purchasing the MSI Wind or Acer Aspire one before my next vacation.

twist2b
Dec 29, 2008, 07:57 PM
HAHA, its NOT going to happen I promise. Why? Because Apple prided themselves in NOT making one, but making an ultra-portable that did NOT sacrifice keyboard size, functionality, potential.

Not to mention all little laptops are USELESS!!!! The DELL mini 9 is rediculous and a waste of money... unless your just looking for an expensive small external hard drive with a screen.

Tosser
Dec 29, 2008, 08:01 PM
HAHA, its NOT going to happen I promise. Why? Because Apple prided themselves in NOT making one, but making an ultra-portable that did NOT sacrifice keyboard size, functionality, potential.

They did the same with the iPhone.

Not to mention all little laptops are USELESS!!!! The DELL mini 9 is rediculous and a waste of money... unless your just looking for an expensive small external hard drive with a screen.
You mean like the ipod Touch and iPhone – oh, wait, they don't even do "external hard drive" … ;)

twist2b
Dec 29, 2008, 08:07 PM
They did the same with the iPhone.


You mean like the ipod Touch and iPhone – oh, wait, they don't even do "external hard drive" … ;)

the second part was kinda a joke.

You must not understand what the iPhone is.... its a PHONE, NOT a computer. Catagories are different.

iPhone = innovative phone, large and cool and capable of A LOT
macbook air = innovative laptop, thin and cool and does not sacrifice like netbooks would.

Oh, yeah. ALso, when I plug my iPhone into my computer I can go to the root of the phone and put stuff on it.. so yes I CAN use it as a drive.
I also did the same with my 5gen ipod

NoSmokingBandit
Dec 29, 2008, 08:14 PM
macbook air = innovative laptop, thin and cool and does not sacrifice like netbooks would.


Yet the air does sacrifice features...
It seems as though people like to defend the sacrifices made in order to produce the air, but if Apple were to copy another market then those sacrifices wouldnt be acceptable.

Alot of people here need to stop being fanboys and realize that its not the end of the world if apple makes a netbook, the Air is indeed missing some useful features, and a netbook would be nothing more than an Air with a smaller screen so you can throw it in a smaller bag.

NT1440
Dec 29, 2008, 08:15 PM
Yet the air does sacrifice features...
It seems as though people like to defend the sacrifices made in order to produce the air, but if Apple were to copy another market then those sacrifices wouldnt be acceptable.

Alot of people here need to stop being fanboys and realize that its not the end of the world if apple makes a netbook, the Air is indeed missing some useful features, and a netbook would be nothing more than an Air with a smaller screen so you can throw it in a smaller bag.

What features is it missing as a satellite computer? That is, after all, what it is.

Tosser
Dec 29, 2008, 08:16 PM
the second part was kinda a joke.

So was my second part. Sort of.

You must not understand what the iPhone is.... its a PHONE, NOT a computer. Catagories are different.
So they "priding themselves" of NOT entering a certain market should only be taken verbatim for certain categories? I see.


iPhone = innovative phone, large and cool and capable of A LOT
LOL, It's not at all "innovative". The only innovative about it is how they were able to market it as such. "Large" has somehow become a superlative for a phone? And really – "capable of A LOT"!? Surely you must be kidding. Have you no idea what the competitors are offering or are you comparing it to a 1998 GSM phone?

macbook air = innovative laptop, thin and cool and does not sacrifice like netbooks would.

Again. There is absolutely nothing innovative about the MacBook Air. It's slim and it has tapered edges which forced them to forego most ports. That's certainly not "innovative".
What do you mean it does not sacrifice anything? It has a huge footprint and are rather heavy for something they themselves call "ultraportable". It has basically no ports, unlike most netbooks and compared to many netbooks it doesn't even have as good battery life as them. No sacrifices? Well, if you want a netbook (i.e. small, ultraportable, lightweight, good battery life), choosing the MBA is nothing BUT sacrifices.


What features is it missing as a satellite computer? That is, after all, what it is.

Besides my reply above, many netbooks has a place for a 3G simcard, two usb ports, ethernet port, expresscard slot and far from least: An SD card-slot. The latter two is quite useful in a "satellite computer" as you call it.

Edit/add: Come to think of it, I think I really prefer that term – "satellite computer" to "netbook". I mean, when I get a hold of a Lenovo S10 with a danish keyboard, it will act more as a satellite computer than as a "netbook", if that makes sense.

NoSmokingBandit
Dec 29, 2008, 08:28 PM
What features is it missing as a satellite computer? That is, after all, what it is.

Satellite Computer:
A computer located remotely from the host computer or under the control of the host. It can function as a slave to the master computer or perform offline tasks.

Tosser
Dec 29, 2008, 08:32 PM
Satellite Computer:
A computer located remotely from the host computer or under the control of the host. It can function as a slave to the master computer or perform offline tasks.

The latter is what makes me think he came up with a better term than "netbook". It's more than a portable browser. Anyway, it doesn't matter, the "genre" is called "netbook", even though they act as a satellite computer.

NT1440
Dec 29, 2008, 08:32 PM
Satellite Computer:
A computer located remotely from the host computer or under the control of the host. It can function as a slave to the master computer or perform offline tasks.

Ok so I got the term wrong.

But in essence that is what the air is. Its not MEANT to be the only computer you have (as evidenced by remote disc). I believe at the introduction keynote or the apple walkthrough its sold as the perfect companion for your home computers.

so....companion computer?

Either way, its not a netbook, its not a notebook, its in some sort of gray area.

twist2b
Dec 29, 2008, 08:36 PM
Lets agree to dissagree.

As for innovation, obviously you are NOT an engineer. As an electrical engineer that is still in school, I am impressed that apple has been able to pull that off. No other company has done quite that as far as I can see (besides IBM's copy though it was never released so I call bull)

Also, you REALLY have to understand that when they made the iphone, they made if for people that wanted a good PHONE. It would be dumb to make a computer on a phone, becuase its a little overdose for something that is spacifically made for PHONE/ipod use.


macbook air - Ok, so you claim its really heavy though its really not unless you litterally have NO muscle whatsoever, you can easily carry something like that for a LONG period of time.


iphone not innovative? So I guess the two-touch is nothing now? I don't see anyone else pulling something like that off.


I think you need to google/wiki the word "innovation"
Just because now everyone knows and is capable of making a wheel does not mean that way back when it was first descovered it was not innovative.

Obviously since many companies are copying apple's iphone and macbook air it goes to show how good they were.

edit - and obviously the macbook air can do more then just browse the web.. so yeah :P
basically netbooks are a HUGE niche market and not worth making.

Tosser
Dec 29, 2008, 08:57 PM
Lets agree to dissagree.

As for innovation, obviously you are NOT an engineer. As an electrical engineer that is still in school, I am impressed that apple has been able to pull that off. No other company has done quite that as far as I can see (besides IBM's copy though it was never released so I call bull)

Okay then. Pull the education card. But instead, perhaps you should list the "innovative" parts? No, really.

Also, you REALLY have to understand that when they made the iphone, they made if for people that wanted a good PHONE.

So wait, they didn't make it to piggy back on the iPod succes and tap into a mature market in order to make money?
Seriously, the "good" part is funny. As mentioned, obviously you aren't aware of what is out there. It can't even copy/paste nor can it act like a harddrive, download from the one-and-only browser or anything.


It would be dumb to make a computer on a phone, becuase its a little overdose for something that is spacifically made for PHONE/ipod use.

Well, first we have to define "computer". Of course it can never be a "laptop", since one would never use it as such, but surely it already is a computer.



macbook air - Ok, so you claim its really heavy though its really not unless you litterally have NO muscle whatsoever, you can easily carry something like that for a LONG period of time.
I have enough "muscle" to carry around my 15" MBP. But I don't want to. Neither do I want to carry around a (-n imaginary) phone weighing in at 1kgs/two pounds. It's not that it wouldn't be possible my point was that IN COMPARISON with netbooks, the MBA IS heavy, like it or not.



iphone not innovative? So I guess the two-touch is nothing now? I don't see anyone else pulling something like that off.
It's a change for sure, but I'm really not sure "change" constitutes "innovation". Strictly speaking it is, but "innovative" is a superlative and it has connotations of "useful". I really don't see it as anything but a design feature that unfortunately dictated the entire OS.


I think you need to google/wiki the word "innovation"
Just because now everyone knows and is capable of making a wheel does not mean that way back when it was first descovered it was not innovative.
Are you seriously trying to pretend that Apple invented and built the smartphone market?
They may look pretty, and have _some_ features not available on most other smartphones, but they are lacking behind with that thing in so many areas it's unbelievable.

Obviously since many companies are copying apple's iphone and macbook air it goes to show how good they were.
It's "design". It shows how good their design and marketing is and how most people buy by looks alone.

edit - and obviously the macbook air can do more then just browse the web.. so yeah :P
Yes yes, that was my point. I really do like the term "satellite computer" much better. It wasn't sarcasm.
basically netbooks are a HUGE niche market and not worth making.
Well, so were smartphones at one time and Apple used more or less the same wording to argue not to enter that market. The thing is, they will enter a market if they deem the risk worth it AND it's a mature market (which, btw, it isn't right now).

NoSmokingBandit
Dec 29, 2008, 10:47 PM
Ok so I got the term wrong.

But in essence that is what the air is. Its not MEANT to be the only computer you have (as evidenced by remote disc). I believe at the introduction keynote or the apple walkthrough its sold as the perfect companion for your home computers.

so....companion computer?

Either way, its not a netbook, its not a notebook, its in some sort of gray area.

I said exactly this on the previous page. The Air is not a substitute for a netbook, whatever the apple zealots may say. People keep saying that the Air has all the features of a full-featured laptop yet they also say its the same as a netbook.

The Air cant be classified because its just a macbook with less features, a slightly thinner body, and a huge price tag. This is why people want a fuggen netbook. People want something that is small. SMALL! Not thin. The Air has a bigger footprint than the macbook, look up the specs on their website, and costs alot of money even for an apple product. People want a netbook so they can have a cheap, low-powered, tiny computer to take with them. THE AIR IS NOT THIS.

The biggest problem with the air is that it really doesnt take up less space, its just really light. So what if it can fit in an envelope, theres a vid of a black macbook doing the same thing. People dont want a thin lappy, they want one with a tiny footprint. When i look to buy a laptop i dont think "oh, well this one is 1.1" thick and this one is 1.3" thick," i think "this one is 15.4" and the other is 17", which one would fit in my bag more easily?"
This is why people want a netbook.

NT1440
Dec 29, 2008, 10:50 PM
people are still buying plenty of airs tho.

I dont think of it as a netbook, and I dont think its even in the same market.

No one wanting a netbook is seriously considering an air.

Tosser
Dec 29, 2008, 10:55 PM
people are still buying plenty of airs tho.
Yup. Just like people are buying plenty of netbooks. But I really can't see what's the point in arguing that people are actally buying a certain product?


I dont think of it as a netbook, and I dont think its even in the same market.
I agree :eek: The netbooks is supposed to be at least a step down, yet the MBA trails behind in more than one way.

No one wanting a netbook is seriously considering an air.
Says who? I don't, but it's not hard to imagine someone pondering which lightweight computer to get, including MBAs, Thinkpad X-series, Sony Vaios, and, of course, netbooks, listing pros and cons.

macbook123
Dec 29, 2008, 10:57 PM
I'm re-posting from another thread. There will be no Net-book for the following very simple reasons:

*Steve Jobs said it in the question session after the Oct 14 event.

*There are already way too many new products scheduled, which are almost 100% certainly going to come out: a) iMac b) Mac Mini, c) 20&30 inch monitors, d) iPhone Nano.

*It would take away from the market of the Air

I don't even know why this is a rumor. It's just impossible.

NT1440
Dec 29, 2008, 11:00 PM
Says who? I don't, but it's not hard to imagine someone pondering with lightweight computer to get, including MBA's Thinkpad X-series, Sony Vaios, and, of course, netbooks, listing pros and cons.

Well considering that most people buying netbooks are the people wanting an inexpensive computer, I dont think anyone with that mindframe is considering an air.

Tosser
Dec 29, 2008, 11:03 PM
I'm re-posting from another thread. There will be no Net-book for the following very simple reasons:

*Steve Jobs said it in the question session after the Oct 14 event.

We've been through this: Jobs have said many things that weren't true. I never quite understood why some people believe anything and everything that man says.


*There are already way too many new products scheduled, which are almost 100% certainly going to come out: a) iMac b) Mac Mini, c) 20&30 inch monitors, d) iPhone Nano.
We're talking about a multi-billion dollar company here. Not some small niche player with three engineers having to think "either or".


*It would take away from the market of the Air
I think netbooks as it is takes away from ultralights of any kind. The question is, does Apple want to offer something and get a piece of the products people go to, or do they simply want to loose out to competitors netbooks?


I don't even know why this is a rumor. It's just impossible.
Sure. Because Stevieboy said so …

Well considering that most people buying netbooks are the people wanting an inexpensive computer, I dont think anyone with that mindframe is considering an air.

Some people are interested in a small computer first, second thoughts are feature sets and third price. Very seldomly do people begin with "I have, say, US$300 – now on what can I blow it". Of course money matters, I'm not saying it don't, but usually it's a limit put on after having realised one's wishes, wants and needs and having checked what's "out there", what's worth buying in that context.

Maven1975
Dec 29, 2008, 11:08 PM
No, that's simplifying it too much. Although that it's true, it only adheres to a "general" consumer, not the individual. Hence, a PocketPC will never be a "fully featured laptop". However, if you take what you say and apply it to said individual, it certainly can be, and it has thus lost all meaning.


Says who? The only company that seems to be outphasing FW is Apple. FW-equipped shipped laptops are on the rise, and there are no heir to take over (No, not USB 3.0 – it may be faster, but it's one-way, and can't do half of what firewire can).

You claim that USB is "on the way in"? Name me one computer which ships with it. And of course, name me one pro audio interface manufacturer who will switch from FW to USB 3.0 when USB 3 comes out. Hell, do the same with a manufacturer of pro video gear.
Impossible? Well, then don't go about claiming those things.


Yet your beloved MBA still shipped with optical discs and not a card reader with the install dmg on, say, an SDHC-card.

Further, although CD sales are going down, it's very seldomly possible to buy CD quality (or lack thereof) on anything but optical discs. We don't all want 128kbps MP3/4s.


So? There are some things that are downright impossible to do through the web by todays standards and speeds. It doesn't matter how it may look in twenty years – unless of course you intend to use your recently purchased computer in twenty years? Quite the investment. I buy computers for the world of today, since I need them today – not twenty years down the line.
Nor would I want sensitive and/or work related stuff uploaded to some third party – even if it was possible to do audio, video, PS'ing (which I don't) over the web.


Of course I do. But that doesn't mean that then everything is not only a-okay, but excellent over here in the Apple-fold.

It is painfully obvious that Apple is presing on into a different direction and it is disturbing several users.

Examples:
FW, Display Port, Disc Drives

Are we going to whine that there is no HDMI on their laps as well?

I do understand that the Air was shipped with Restore DVD's, but you are omitting the fact that they developed Remote Disc. Installing Via wireless N is equal to faster than internal super drives. If you can not afford WIFI, you don't need an Air. (Air because it is light, but also a wireless dependent device)

USB 3.0 will be adopted by every manufacturer. The name has been burnt and branded into consumers brains. I think that Apple will chose to go down this road to simplify their devices further.

To add, I feel that we may see OS updates (10.7,10.8 and so on) available via iTunes. Apple is becoming very conscious of packaging, shipping, and other costs that are cutting into their profits and adding unneeded waste. Additionally, it could/would help curb piracy.

The argument of CD audio quality is not valid. If you are a true Audiophile, even thinking of listening to a CD on a laptop would make you cringe.

Who needs a card reader?

http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-SDSDPH-008G-A11-15MB-Ultra-Plus/dp/B0012W7HGA/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1230612919&sr=8-7

Back to firewire, take a step back and look at Apple as of late.

Glossy only. Pro's hate it
FW cut. Pro's Hate it
LED Cinema Display: Pro's hate it.

But the normal consumer LOVES it! This is why I THINK Firewire is on the way out. Why is firewire (Esp. 800) so scarce on PC's? Royalty charges, lack of exposure, misrepresentation? I think it might be a little of all.

As far as you twenty year statement, I would cut that in half. Again, I think my Air does everything I need until USB 3.0 is integrated. At that point, I will just update the system. These are not the PPC days. We are on the Intel update train now. Expect your computers to drastically reduce in price within 12-15 months.

Tosser
Dec 29, 2008, 11:36 PM
It is painfully obvious that Apple is presing on into a different direction and it is disturbing several users.

Examples:
FW, Display Port, Disc Drives

Are we going to whine that there is no HDMI on their laps as well?

You think that's the same as omitting firewire?


I do understand that the Air was shipped with Restore DVD's, but you are omitting the fact that they developed Remote Disc.
You realise that this is merely a workaround for the introduced problems of the tapered sides. That it still does not amounts to "optical discs are dead", right?

Installing Via wireless N is equal to faster than internal super drives.
It's not.

If you can not afford WIFI, you don't need an Air.
Strawman. I never argued I, nor anyone else, could not afford Wi-Fi, nor was I pretending that such a thing was or should be a parameter.

(Air because it is light, but also a wireless dependent device)
Ah, yes. That's a real argument :rolleyes:
Next you'll tell me that the 15" MacBook is a computer for "pros" …


USB 3.0 will be adopted by every manufacturer.

I never said anything of the sort. I am saying that no manufacturer of, say audio interfaces, are saying (or showing) that USB 3.0 is the heir to FIREWIRE. Quite the difference.

The name has been burnt and branded into consumers brains. I think that Apple will chose to go down this road to simplify their devices further.

See above. And please quit with the strawman argumentation.

To add, I feel that we may see OS updates (10.7,10.8 and so on) available via iTunes. Apple is becoming very conscious of packaging, shipping, and other costs that are cutting into their profits and adding unneeded waste. Additionally, it could/would help curb piracy.
Obviously you think that Apple is in a vacuum, and that all the data people need can be had from iTunes. The reality is, there's a whole world outside of 128kbps MP4s, OS X-updates and iPhone Apps.


The argument of CD audio quality is not valid. If you are a true Audiophile, even thinking of listening to a CD on a laptop would make you cringe.
You are nuts. Stop with the strawman argumentation, will you. It's called "ripping" and with the use of an external DAC it's as good as CD quality (i.e. 16bit/44.1kHz) gets. Further, I use my computer for audio work which often entails burning a cd, getting CD-quality (and better )audio into (and out) of the computer.
Besides, "audiophile" smacks of snake-oil. It's a term worn proudly only by people who believe their ability to hear goes well into the microwave spectrum – you know head-fi'ers.

Who needs a card reader?
Are you serious? Phones these days have swappable cards, cameras these days have swappable cards, video cameras (some) have swappable cards, many recorders have swappable cards, PDAs have swappable cards.

Who needs a card reader? Man, are you ever out and about for more than an hour at a time with your lappie?


http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-SDSDPH-008G-A11-15MB-Ultra-Plus/dp/B0012W7HGA/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1230612919&sr=8-7

Ah, yes, let's go buy such a card for all our stuff. And when you're out and about and have to buy another card in some shop, you will be **** out of luck, because you don't carry an external card reader and you don't have any card reader in your laptop.


Back to firewire, take a step back and look at Apple as of late.

Glossy only. Pro's hate it
FW cut. Pro's Hate it
LED Cinema Display: Pro's hate it.

But the normal consumer LOVES it! This is why I THINK Firewire is on the way out. Why is firewire (Esp. 800) so scarce on PC's? Royalty charges, lack of exposure, misrepresentation? I think it might be a little of all.
We have gone through this over and over and over again:
1 Firewire on shipped computers are ON THE RISE.
2 Are you trying to convince anyone by saying that normal consumers "LOVES" the nixing of FW? What's to love? Seriously, at most they're indifferent.
3 consumers "loves" that there are no choice of matte? Are you serious? If lowest common denominator consumers can get their glossy screens why even care about a matte option?
4 It's about time they stopped calling the 15" MB "MacBook Pro". They shouldn't try to piggy back on the rennome WE gave them, while with the other hand catering solely to lowest common denominator consumers.


As far as you twenty year statement, I would cut that in half.
Good for you. But you still buy a computer to use now and not one that might be good in ten years time, now would you?

Again, I think my Air does everything I need until USB 3.0 is integrated.
So, as of now, it doesn't?

At that point, I will just update the system. These are not the PPC days. We are on the Intel update train now. Expect your computers to drastically reduce in price within 12-15 months.
What's your point? That because it becomes cheaper, USB 3 is suddenly the heir to FW? Or because the tech becomes cheaper to buy a computer all of sudden we will all just download everything, even if there isn't sufficient bandwidth? I really can't see the point in what you're saying, other than one should buy something that doesn't fulfill one's needs, because in THE FUTURE it will become cheaper. And, frankly, that doesn't make any sense.

Maven1975
Dec 30, 2008, 12:25 AM
You think that's the same as omitting firewire?



You realise that this is merely a workaround for the introduced problems of the tapered sides. That it still does not amounts to "optical discs are dead", right?


It's not.


Strawman. I never argued I, nor anyone else, could not afford Wi-Fi, nor was I pretending that such a thing was or should be a parameter.


Ah, yes. That's a real argument :rolleyes:
Next you'll tell me that the 15" MacBook is a computer for "pros" …




I never said anything of the sort. I am saying that no manufacturer of, say audio interfaces, are saying (or showing) that USB 3.0 is the heir to FIREWIRE. Quite the difference.



See above. And please quit with the strawman argumentation.


Obviously you think that Apple is in a vacuum, and that all the data people need can be had from iTunes. The reality is, there's a whole world outside of 128kbps MP4s, OS X-updates and iPhone Apps.



You are nuts. Stop with the strawman argumentation, will you. It's called "ripping" and with the use of an external DAC it's as good as CD quality (i.e. 16bit/44.1kHz) gets. Further, I use my computer for audio work which often entails burning a cd, getting CD-quality (and better )audio into (and out) of the computer.
Besides, "audiophile" smacks of snake-oil. It's a term worn proudly only by people who believe their ability to hear goes well into the microwave spectrum – you know head-fi'ers.


Are you serious? Phones these days have swappable cards, cameras these days have swappable cards, video cameras (some) have swappable cards, many recorders have swappable cards, PDAs have swappable cards.

Who needs a card reader? Man, are you ever out and about for more than an hour at a time with your lappie?




Ah, yes, let's go buy such a card for all our stuff. And when you're out and about and have to buy another card in some shop, you will be **** out of luck, because you don't carry an external card reader and you don't have any card reader in your laptop.



We have gone through this over and over and over again:
1 Firewire on shipped computers are ON THE RISE.
2 Are you trying to convince anyone by saying that normal consumers "LOVES" the nixing of FW? What's to love? Seriously, at most they're indifferent.
3 consumers "loves" that there are no choice of matte? Are you serious? If lowest common denominator consumers can get their glossy screens why even care about a matte option?
4 It's about time they stopped calling the 15" MB "MacBook Pro". They shouldn't try to piggy back on the rennome WE gave them, while with the other hand catering solely to lowest common denominator consumers.



Good for you. But you still buy a computer to use now and not one that might be good in ten years time, now would you?


So, as of now, it doesn't?


What's your point? That because it becomes cheaper, USB 3 is suddenly the heir to FW? Or because the tech becomes cheaper to buy a computer all of sudden we will all just download everything, even if there isn't sufficient bandwidth? I really can't see the point in what you're saying, other than one should buy something that doesn't fulfill one's needs, because in THE FUTURE it will become cheaper. And, frankly, that doesn't make any sense.

99% of the time, Ripping Audio is going to mess with the masters quality/encoding. Even if you can achieve a perfect duplication, what percentile of MBP owners are doing exactly this exact operation?

Please don't discount or offend anyone here that knows there is a difference in quality A/V gear. That is a separate discussion entirely.

Why would I need more than 128 GB and a few 8 GB flash cards? Good luck sicking you beloved CD/DVD Disc's into your pocket while traveling. Why would anyone buy an Air if they were doing your type of heavy lifting? They wouldn't!

Although, I have edited a few HD iMovies without issues and transferred them to a SD card for playback on my PS3. The PS3 drive can not keep up with the files when trying to play them off a DVD. Imagine that. How did I get the files on the MBA in the first place you ask? I have an AVCHD camcorder that uses SD cards.

After taking apart a MBA, I can tell you that there is no room for any type of CD/DVD drive. There was clearly no intention of installing one. In addition, the new MBP's have tapered sides.

Apple's own keynote said their view is that technology is moving away from CD/DVD medium.

In Apple's eyes, the 15" is for Pro's. Like I said, There are other options out there.

I never said USB 3.0 would be the heir to firewire. I just think it will be the next choice for Apple with its recent decisions.

Firewire shipped computers seem to be on the decrease lately at Apple.

I only claimed that digital deliver is going to be a goal for them.

The MBA is a perfect machine for my needs. When USB 3.0 arrives (As I think it will), I will upgrade.

As for the WIFI comment, It was a statement of fact. The Air and most netbooks thrive in a wireless environment. Everyone.. If you cant afford Wifi, don't but an Air. Period.

Bandwidth in the USA is still an issue. I only get 20 MBPS D/L in AZ, but other countries, like Japan have awesome bandwidth.

Tosser
Dec 30, 2008, 12:42 AM
99% of the time, Ripping Audio is going to mess with the masters quality/encoding. Even if you can achieve a perfect duplication, what percentile of MBP owners are doing exactly this exact operation? Please don't discount or offend anyone here that knows there is a difference in quality gear.
LOL, are you saying you're a head-fi'er?

Seriosly, a proper rip to lossless or uncompressed will certainly not affect the original (a bought cd is no "Master"), nor will it affect any encoding. It is a bit-for-bit copy.


Why would I need more than 128 GB and a few 8 GB flash cards? Good luck sicking you beloved CD/DVD Disc's into your pocket while traveling.
You continue with your strawman argumentation. I never said I would travel with CD's – there's a reason I rip my stuff. A laptop (or netbook) is for much else besides travelling. Did I mention "in the field"? I think so.


Why would anyone buy an Air if they were doing that type of heavy lifting? They wouldn't!

What "heavy lifting"?

Apple's own keynote said their view is that technology is moving away from CD/DVD medium.
Yes, and other banalities. Of course we are, but that is not to say that optical media is already in the past. We may be "moving away" from it, but we're hardly anywhere near it.

Let's have this conversation again when Apple ships their computers with the OS on flash or similar.



In Apple's eyes, the 15" is for Pro's. Like I said, There are other options out there.
Is it now? I don't see anything but the monicker being "pro" about it. In fact, Jobs mentioned how _consumers_ liked glossy screens so they would move in that irection. They essentially nixed fw on the 15 incher (by reintroducing the Agere chipset). The only thing "pro" about the 15" MB is the expresscard slot, but since a) it's also found on other computers - even netbooks - one can hardly claim that that is enough to distinguish it as a "pro" computer, not to mention that the Expresscard slot found on that 15" MB doesn't work properly under OS X if you stick an FW-adaptor in it – not even if said adaptor has a TI chipset.

So, what's "pro" about it, except the monicker?



I never said USB 3.0 would be the heir to firewire. I just think it will be the next choice for Apple with its recent decisions.
You certainly more than implied it.


Firewire shipped computers seem to be on the decrease lately at Apple.
Wow! No frecking kidding! But that does not mean that firewire is dead, nor that USB 3 will make FW obsolete, nor that manufacturers of FW-gear will move on to USB 3.0 and nix FW.

I only claimed that digital deliver is going to be a goal for them.
Sure :rolleyes:


The MBA is a perfect machine for my needs. When USB 3.0 arrives (As I think it will), I will upgrade.
We have already been through this.

As for the WIFI comment, I was a statement of fact.
No it wasn't. You implied that an ability to pay for WiFi was part of my argumentation and therefore it was a strawman argument.

The Air and most netbooks thrive in a wireless environment. Everyone.. If you cant afford Wifi, don't but an Air. Period.

Some people :rolleyes:


Bandwidth in the USA is still an issue. I only get 20 MBPS D/L in AZ, but other countries, like Japan have awesome bandwidth.
That's my point: SOME places might have good coverage and bandwidth, but to deduct that because apple says "we're moving away from it" (as if that is something new) and there are good coverage in SOME places, that then there is no need for it NOW is utterly ignorant not to mention ridiculous.


You added to your post:


Although, I have edited a few HD iMovies without issues and transferred them to a SD card for playback on my PS3. The PS3 drive can not keep up with the files when trying to play them off a DVD. Imagine that. How did I get the files on the MBA in the first place you ask? I have an AVCHD camcorder that uses SD cards.

After taking apart a MBA, I can tell you that there is no room for any type of CD/DVD drive. There was clearly no intention of installing one. In addition, the new MBP's have tapered sides.
LOL, I know there was absolutely NO intention to do that. Had there been, though, they would not have tapered the edges, RESULTING in the concessions and workarounds: Mini-ports, few ports, hinged ports, no drive, huge bezels, core shutdowns and so on. The reality is that the MBA is a prime example of looks before function.

Maven1975
Dec 30, 2008, 01:07 AM
LOL, are you saying you're a head-fi'er?

Seriosly, a proper rip to lossless or uncompressed will certainly not affect the original (a bought cd is no "Master"), nor will it affect any encoding. It is a bit-for-bit copy.



You continue with your strawman argumentation. I never said I would travel with CD's – there's a reason I rip my stuff. A laptop (or netbook) is for much else besides travelling. Did I mention "in the field"? I think so.




What "heavy lifting"?


Yes, and other banalities. Of course we are, but that is not to say that optical media is already in the past. We may be "moving away" from it, but we're hardly anywhere near it.

Let's have this conversation again when Apple ships their computers with the OS on flash or similar.




Is it now? I don't see anything but the monicker being "pro" about it. In fact, Jobs mentioned how _consumers_ liked glossy screens so they would move in that irection. They essentially nixed fw on the 15 incher (by reintroducing the Agere chipset). The only thing "pro" about the 15" MB is the expresscard slot, but since a) it's also found on other computers - even netbooks - one can hardly claim that that is enough to distinguish it as a "pro" computer, not to mention that the Expresscard slot found on that 15" MB doesn't work properly under OS X if you stick an FW-adaptor in it – not even if said adaptor has a TI chipset.

So, what's "pro" about it, except the monicker?




You certainly more than implied it.



Wow! No frecking kidding! But that does not mean that firewire is dead, nor that USB 3 will make FW obsolete, nor that manufacturers of FW-gear will move on to USB 3.0 and nix FW.


Sure :rolleyes:



We have already been through this.


No it wasn't. You implied that an ability to pay for WiFi was part of my argumentation and therefore it was a strawman argument.



Some people :rolleyes:



That's my point: SOME places might have good coverage and bandwidth, but to deduct that because apple says "we're moving away from it" (as if that is something new) and there are good coverage in SOME places, that then there is no need for it NOW is utterly ignorant not to mention ridiculous.


You added to your post:



LOL, I know there was absolutely NO intention to do that. Had there been, though, they would not have tapered the edges, RESULTING in the concessions and workarounds: Mini-ports, few ports, hinged ports, no drive, huge bezels, core shutdowns and so on. The reality is that the MBA is a prime example of looks before function.

I know the sonic differences between a Sony receiver and a set of Lexicon separates. So, I guess that makes me an Audiophile. In your opinion, all components are created equal? Interesting.

I edited my post to reflect "Your type of heavy lifting" Needing something from a computer that is not present on a MBA.

I have not had core shutdowns on my Rev. B. I clearly stated that Rev. A was half baked. The reality is, they have fixed these issues with the Air Rev. B.

"You continue with your strawman argumentation. I never said I would travel with CD's – there's a reason I rip my stuff. A laptop (or netbook) is for much else besides travelling. Did I mention "in the field"? I think so."

So you are saying you rip your media so you don't have to do it in the field? Why would this be any different from what we do with our Air's? Furthermore, from what Apple suggested to do when omitting the CD/DVD drive from one of its laptops?

It looks like you need to fire off an email to sjobs@apple.com Hopefully you can talk some sense into him.

Tosser
Dec 30, 2008, 01:15 AM
I know the sonic differences between a Sony receiver and a set of Lexicon separates. So, I guess that makes me an Audiophile. In your opinion, all components are created equal? Interesting.
No. What is interesting is your need to continue to misrepresent what I say. I am pointing out to you that a bit-for-bit copy will sound the same as the original. That is certainly not saying all equipment are created equally. Do you even know what a DAC is? It doesn't sound like you do.

I edited my post to reflect "Your type of heavy lifting" Needing something from a computer that is not present on a MBA.
I don't consider any of my examples "heavy lifting".

I have not had core shutdowns on my Rev. B. I clearly stated that Rev. A was half baked. The reality is, they have fixed these issues with the Air Rev. B.
That does not in any way make your argument stronger, nor does it make mine weaker.


"You continue with your strawman argumentation. I never said I would travel with CD's there's a reason I rip my stuff. A laptop (or netbook) is for much else besides travelling. Did I mention "in the field"? I think so."

So you are saying you rip your media so you don't have to do it in the field?
No, again, I do that for traveling. I also have work to do, though, so SOME things are ripped and burned in the field. I don't travel with music cd's though. There is no point in that.



Why would this be any different from what we do with our Air's?
Why? Because out in the field (i.e. WORKING) you don't have your NAS and Wireless N-network at all times.



It looks like you need to fire off an email to sjobs@apple.com Hopefully you can talk some sense into him.
Hmm. Talk about missing the point entirely. He's not the one running around here defending anything. You are. You are the one who feels a need to make extraordinary use of strawman argumentation in order to sound persuasive, and you're the one that thinks that the future is already present.

MVApple
Dec 30, 2008, 01:23 AM
I bought my gf an HP Mini 1000 this Christmas and she LOVES it. Everyday since she got it she tells me how much she loves her mini. She is not a hardcore computer user. When I was at Best Buy looking at the computer a bunch of people were eyeing it and talking about how its a good value for a neat little computer.

You have to view this through the eyes of the average consumer who probably doesn't use their computer for much more than Microsoft Office and web browsing.

My gf tells me she's going to take it to class to type her notes on. At the size and weight its just right for taking notes on and carrying it around. I would have loved to have gotten her, her first Mac but it wasn't an option. I think a lot of people that have a desktop but want a secondary computer for light use like office and web browsing work for short periods of time is going to eat up these netbooks.

Don't take my word for it, look at the crazy sales they are experiencing. Apple WILL release a netbook. It started out as a niche market but it has exploded and I doubt Apple will sit it out twiddling their thumbs.

Maven1975
Dec 30, 2008, 01:45 AM
No. What is interesting is your need to continue to misrepresent what I say. I am pointing out to you that a bit-for-bit copy will sound the same as the original. That is certainly not saying all equipment are created equally. Do you even know what a DAC is? It doesn't sound like you do.


I don't consider any of my examples "heavy lifting".


That does not in any way make your argument stronger, nor does it make mine weaker.





No, again, I do that for traveling. I also have work to do, though, so SOME things are ripped and burned in the field. I don't travel with music cd's though. There is no point in that.




Why? Because out in the field (i.e. WORKING) you don't have your NAS and Wireless N-network at all times.




Hmm. Talk about missing the point entirely. He's not the one running around here defending anything. You are. You are the one who feels a need to make extraordinary use of strawman argumentation in order to sound persuasive, and you're the one that thinks that the future is already present.

"I don't consider any of my examples "heavy lifting". "

How do you rip a Disc on a computer that does not have an optical drive? If you need that function, one would buy a computer with a optical drive. I would call trying to rip a CD/DVD on a Air heavy lifting without the addition of an external drive.

"That does not in any way make your argument stronger, nor does it make mine weaker."

Maybe not, but it does point out your Strawman statements about core shutdown. In addition, the bezel on the MBA is no larger than the MB or MBA. It also helps add more space on the keyboard for comfort IMHO.

"No. What is interesting is your need to continue to misrepresent what I say. I am pointing out to you that a bit-for-bit copy will sound the same as the original. That is certainly not saying all equipment are created equally. Do you even know what a DAC is? It doesn't sound like you do. "

You make a bunch of assumptions. Please read these direct quotes.

"LOL, are you saying you're a head-fi'er?

"Besides, "audiophile" smacks of snake-oil. It's a term worn proudly only by people who believe their ability to hear goes well into the microwave spectrum – you know head-fi'ers. "

In my opinion, it seem you are quick to pass judgement on ones expertise.

"Hmm. Talk about missing the point entirely. He's not the one running around here defending anything. You are. You are the one who feels a need to make extraordinary use of strawman argumentation in order to sound persuasive, and you're the one that thinks that the future is already present"

I would love the ability to change the battery, and add more ram to the Air. I would also like it to have OLED, FW 400, FW 800, Blu-Ray, 20 USB slots and hell.. even a DVD/CD drive all at the same weight.

Pop back to reality, not gonna happen.

If I had to guess, I would say you are looking for an argument. I am just pointing out that technology is advancing. Holding on the the past might not be the best option. It seem you are complaining about Apple's want/desire to push things into a different direction. Complaining here will get you little traction. Perhaps trying the Apple support forums.

Tosser
Dec 30, 2008, 03:13 AM
"I don't consider any of my examples "heavy lifting". "

How do you rip a Disc on a computer that does not have an optical drive? If you need that function, one would buy a computer with a optical drive. I would call trying to rip a CD/DVD on a Air heavy lifting without the addition of an external drive.
Yes, of course one would do that. But your argument is that there is no need for optical in general.

"That does not in any way make your argument stronger, nor does it make mine weaker."

Maybe not, but it does point out your Strawman statements about core shutdown.

Before you parrot what I say, perhaps you should look up "strawman argument".
The fact is, that Rev A. continously had core shutdowns from merely looking at things on youtube or video chatting.
In addition, the bezel on the MBA is no larger than the MB or MBA. It also helps add more space on the keyboard for comfort IMHO.
You never used the keyboard on a 12" powerbook, did you? The extra width around the keyboard doesn't matter at all. I am well aware that the bezels on the MB and MBP are large as well, but the fact is, had they not tapered the sides on the MBA they could have made them thinner (narrower). And for some reason – because of the apparent "thinness", perhaps? The bezels on the MBA looks much wider than on the MB and of course the MBP (because of the larger screen, mostly).




"No. What is interesting is your need to continue to misrepresent what I say. I am pointing out to you that a bit-for-bit copy will sound the same as the original. That is certainly not saying all equipment are created equally. Do you even know what a DAC is? It doesn't sound like you do. "

[quote]You make a bunch of assumptions. Please read these direct quotes.
Funny. You assumed in your strawman that I was saying all equipment was created equally because I said a proper rip was bit-for-bit the same as the original. You didn't even know the difference between a master and simply an "original", and the assumption you made certainly made it most likely that you didn't know what a DAC was – otherwise it would be very hard to jump to the conclusion that I thought of all equipment as being created equally. What is it then? You simply don't know anything about digital audio?



"LOL, are you saying you're a head-fi'er?
Indeed. You seemed well offended by what I said about the term "audiophile".




"Besides, "audiophile" smacks of snake-oil. It's a term worn proudly only by people who believe their ability to hear goes well into the microwave spectrum – you know head-fi'ers. "
So? I work in the audio business. I have an analytical mind and an engineer-like approach. Of course I have an opinion about snake-oil vendors and since I have frequented such sites (of which head-fi is just a very good example), I am well aware of how many people on those sites do nothing but reiterate snake-oil sales pitches.

In my opinion, it seem you are quick to pass judgement on ones expertise.

This is not some opinion I just thought of. It has been formed by experience, so there is nothing "quick" about this, nor is it an assumption. It's based purely on what people on that site act like and what they say, held against real knowledge and science.


"Hmm. Talk about missing the point entirely. He's not the one running around here defending anything. You are. You are the one who feels a need to make extraordinary use of strawman argumentation in order to sound persuasive, and you're the one that thinks that the future is already present"

I would love the ability to change the battery, and add more ram to the Air. I would also like it to have OLED, FW 400, FW 800, Blu-Ray, 20 USB slots and hell.. even a DVD/CD drive all at the same weight.

Pop back to reality, not gonna happen.
Ah, yes, it's unrealistic to expect and buy computers where you can aactually swap the battery or add more ram, find something with FW or dvd-drive. It's so far out in the future that we might as well ask for those twenty (!!!) USB ports you compare such demands to. :rolleyes:

Wake up, will you?


If I had to guess, I would say you are looking for an argument.

Really? That's funny I see you all the time having to use strawman argumentation and red herrings (there's another one for you to look up) – for an outsider that would imply it is you who are looking for an argument, and by extension are projecting.




I am just pointing out that technology is advancing.

No you're not. Read your posts again.


Holding on the the past might not be the best option.
This really is hilarious. You have JUST said that you''re merely pointing out that technology is advancing. Yet in the next sentence having a need for firewire and/or optical drives are already "in the past"? Is it impossible or you to at least be consistent?

It seem you are complaining about Apple's want/desire to push things into a different direction.
No – I don't like it, but I am merely countering your argument that FW, optical drives et al are in the past, and that everyone can make do with wireless N, no optical drive and so on, everywhere they go, no matter what they do.

Maven1975
Dec 30, 2008, 05:18 PM
Yes, of course one would do that. But your argument is that there is no need for optical in general.



Before you parrot what I say, perhaps you should look up "strawman argument".
The fact is, that Rev A. continously had core shutdowns from merely looking at things on youtube or video chatting.

You never used the keyboard on a 12" powerbook, did you? The extra width around the keyboard doesn't matter at all. I am well aware that the bezels on the MB and MBP are large as well, but the fact is, had they not tapered the sides on the MBA they could have made them thinner (narrower). And for some reason – because of the apparent "thinness", perhaps? The bezels on the MBA looks much wider than on the MB and of course the MBP (because of the larger screen, mostly).




[quote]"No. What is interesting is your need to continue to misrepresent what I say. I am pointing out to you that a bit-for-bit copy will sound the same as the original. That is certainly not saying all equipment are created equally. Do you even know what a DAC is? It doesn't sound like you do. "


Funny. You assumed in your strawman that I was saying all equipment was created equally because I said a proper rip was bit-for-bit the same as the original. You didn't even know the difference between a master and simply an "original", and the assumption you made certainly made it most likely that you didn't know what a DAC was – otherwise it would be very hard to jump to the conclusion that I thought of all equipment as being created equally. What is it then? You simply don't know anything about digital audio?




Indeed. You seemed well offended by what I said about the term "audiophile".





So? I work in the audio business. I have an analytical mind and an engineer-like approach. Of course I have an opinion about snake-oil vendors and since I have frequented such sites (of which head-fi is just a very good example), I am well aware of how many people on those sites do nothing but reiterate snake-oil sales pitches.



This is not some opinion I just thought of. It has been formed by experience, so there is nothing "quick" about this, nor is it an assumption. It's based purely on what people on that site act like and what they say, held against real knowledge and science.



Ah, yes, it's unrealistic to expect and buy computers where you can aactually swap the battery or add more ram, find something with FW or dvd-drive. It's so far out in the future that we might as well ask for those twenty (!!!) USB ports you compare such demands to. :rolleyes:

Wake up, will you?




Really? That's funny I see you all the time having to use strawman argumentation and red herrings (there's another one for you to look up) – for an outsider that would imply it is you who are looking for an argument, and by extension are projecting.






No you're not. Read your posts again.



This really is hilarious. You have JUST said that you''re merely pointing out that technology is advancing. Yet in the next sentence having a need for firewire and/or optical drives are already "in the past"? Is it impossible or you to at least be consistent?


No – I don't like it, but I am merely countering your argument that FW, optical drives et al are in the past, and that everyone can make do with wireless N, no optical drive and so on, everywhere they go, no matter what they do.


Again with the idiocy. :eek:

Your arguments are weak and rely on twisting words.

"Before you parrot what I say, perhaps you should look up "strawman argument".
The fact is, that Rev A. continously had core shutdowns from merely looking at things on youtube or video chatting. "

I was not the one that was not clear in their post. Perhaps stating Rev. A MBA's in the future would help.

This is the last time I will post this.

Don't buy a computer if it does not have what you need/desire on a day to day basis.

petermcphee
Dec 30, 2008, 06:53 PM
I would buy five of them.

Tosser
Dec 31, 2008, 07:36 AM
Your arguments are weak and rely on twisting words.

That's a claim for sure. But as usual, you don't even come close to backing it up with any sort of argument. What's ironic is that anyone can see what you say by simply going back in this thread.
I guess, though, that it's easier for you to claim that I rely on twisting words when you're caught in two adjacent sentences saying the exact opposite of each other.
"With no arguments, let's go claim something absurd," seems to be the mantra of the day.



"Before you parrot what I say, perhaps you should look up "strawman argument".
The fact is, that Rev A. continously had core shutdowns from merely looking at things on youtube or video chatting. "

I was not the one that was not clear in their post. Perhaps stating Rev. A MBA's in the future would help.
Remember when I talked about "projection"? When we talked about "new designs" and how the MBA was designed and what problems was associated with that computer I mentioned several problems that came with this new design. But you - you decide to focus on just a single of the problems (they they NOW fixed) and then imply a) I was wrong, and b) that I should be more clear. You seriously should try thinking for yourself and stop defending things blindly. If you did you wouldn't need to continue making red herrings, continue to ignore facts and valid arguments, and you'd stop trying to pretend I said something I didn't.


This is the last time I will post this.
Good riddance.


Don't buy a computer if it does not have what you need/desire on a day to day basis.
I'm sorry, but in a discussion forum, in a thread asking people if they'd buy "xxx", the whole point is discussing what one wants and/or needs. If we said nothing, there wouldn't be much a discussion, would there?
As usual, when you and your peers weak pseudo arguments doesn't cut it, you come up with the ingenious "If you don't like it, don't buy it", and "if you don't like it, there are other choices out there". That never gets old.



Stop with your rant.
I don't rant. I argue my case. It's just unfortunate you have no idea how to do that.


Post of the day.

It seems Steve and his billions could learn a thing or two from someone like Tosser who spends most of his waking hours on a chat forum.:rolleyes:

I know it's hard to differentiate between subtleties, but there's a mountain of difference between "being active when around" and "being around constantly".
As usual, you and your peers are basing each and every premise and opinion on that pseudo sarcastic comment: Whatever Jobs does is excellent – no matter what. That, my friends, is one scary lemming attitude, showing exactly how little some people are able to think for themselves.

Maven1975
Dec 31, 2008, 10:59 AM
Then:

"LOL, I know there was absolutely NO intention to do that. Had there been, though, they would not have tapered the edges, RESULTING in the concessions and workarounds: Mini-ports, few ports, hinged ports, no drive, huge bezels, core shutdowns and so on. The reality is that the MBA is a prime example of looks before function."

Now:

"Remember when I talked about "projection"? When we talked about "new designs" and how the MBA was designed and what problems was associated with that computer I mentioned several problems that came with this new design. But you - you decide to focus on just a single of the problems (they they NOW fixed) and then imply a) I was wrong, and b) that I should be more clear. You seriously should try thinking for yourself and stop defending things blindly. If you did you wouldn't need to continue making red herrings, continue to ignore facts and valid arguments, and you'd stop trying to pretend I said something I didn't."

The reality is you are posting inside of the MBA thread complaining about function. News Flash--- We know what we are buying when we walk out of the door.

What more do you expect from the Air? Quad core? Firewire? Retinal Scanner? Price Drop?

"You never used the keyboard on a 12" powerbook, did you?"

Here you go with assumptions again.

yoppie
Dec 31, 2008, 11:04 AM
No. I get along just fine with my iPhone and MacBook.

I'm hoping to upgrade to a MacBook Pro and a Mac mini (for entertainment use with my TV and an external computer movie) in 2009.

Tosser
Dec 31, 2008, 11:11 AM
Then:

"LOL, I know there was absolutely NO intention to do that. Had there been, though, they would not have tapered the edges, RESULTING in the concessions and workarounds: Mini-ports, few ports, hinged ports, no drive, huge bezels, core shutdowns and so on. The reality is that the MBA is a prime example of looks before function."

Now:

"Remember when I talked about "projection"? When we talked about "new designs" and how the MBA was designed and what problems was associated with that computer I mentioned several problems that came with this new design. But you - you decide to focus on just a single of the problems (they they NOW fixed) and then imply a) I was wrong, and b) that I should be more clear. You seriously should try thinking for yourself and stop defending things blindly. If you did you wouldn't need to continue making red herrings, continue to ignore facts and valid arguments, and you'd stop trying to pretend I said something I didn't."

The reality is you are posting inside of the MBA thread complaining about function. News Flash--- We know what we are buying when we walk out of the door.

The reality is that I'm posting in a thread about netbooks, and some idjit figured that the MBA must be a netbook, another idjit that it was far superiour to a netbook. Then some other idjit decided that noone should say anything bad about the MBA because it was superior to anything (regardless of needs) and the same idjit decided to try and prove that no concessions were made as a result of the design which dictated the functioniality.

That's the short of the long of it.



What more do you expect from the Air? Quad core? Firewire? Retinal Scanner? Price Drop?
I expect nothing of the MBA. However, I do expect people to recognise the huge concessions with regards to functionality all so it could be made to "look prettty".



"You never used the keyboard on a 12" powerbook, did you?"

Here you go with assumptions again.

Really? If you had, you wouldn't have come up with an argument where you implied that it was uncomfortable using a laptop without extra space besides the keyboard and screen. It's not a matter of assumptions. It's a matter of taking your arguments for what they are: Pure nonsense based on blind fanboyism.

Maven1975
Dec 31, 2008, 11:37 AM
"Really? If you had, you wouldn't have come up with an argument where you implied that it was uncomfortable using a laptop without extra space besides the keyboard and screen. It's not a matter of assumptions. It's a matter of taking your arguments for what they are: Pure nonsense based on blind fanboyism."

I find the Air more comfortable in every way. This is a matter of opinion.

"I expect nothing of the MBA. However, I do expect people to recognise the huge concessions with regards to functionality all so it could be made to "look prettty".

I find that it rids me of unwanted devices/weight. I wouldn't mind an extra USB, but you are right.. it does look good.

Mykbibby
Jan 1, 2009, 02:00 AM
Maybe or a iPhone nano as ATT has 3G iphones for 99 bucks ;)

I hate that avatar... it gets me every time!

And no, I think Netbooks dont appeal to this crowd as much as they would to others.

QCassidy352
Jan 1, 2009, 11:27 AM
I'll say it again - I don't see the point of netbooks. The difference between a 3 lb. netbook and a fully featured 4.5 lb. macbook is minimal. The difference between a pocket-sized iphone/ipod touch/blackberry and a 3 lb. netbook is enormous.

For me, it's about whether I have to carry a bag or whether it's something I can just put in my pocket. Once we reach the "carry a bag" point, I'll just take a real computer, not a 9" toy.

zap2
Jan 1, 2009, 11:29 AM
Yes

Maven1975
Jan 1, 2009, 04:11 PM
I'll say it again - I don't see the point of netbooks. The difference between a 3 lb. netbook and a fully featured 4.5 lb. macbook is minimal. The difference between a pocket-sized iphone/ipod touch/blackberry and a 3 lb. netbook is enormous.

For me, it's about whether I have to carry a bag or whether it's something I can just put in my pocket. Once we reach the "carry a bag" point, I'll just take a real computer, not a 9" toy.

I agree. Actualy, if Apple didint have that lame screen on the MB, I might actualy consider it next time around.

Well put.

zap2
Jan 1, 2009, 04:15 PM
I'll say it again - I don't see the point of netbooks. The difference between a 3 lb. netbook and a fully featured 4.5 lb. macbook is minimal. The difference between a pocket-sized iphone/ipod touch/blackberry and a 3 lb. netbook is enormous.

For me, it's about whether I have to carry a bag or whether it's something I can just put in my pocket. Once we reach the "carry a bag" point, I'll just take a real computer, not a 9" toy.

I agree. Actualy, if Apple didint have that lame screen on the MB, I might actualy consider it next time around.

Well put.


Thats fine......for you.

But there IS a difference. I hold my 7'' EEE PC(which is the same size physically as the 8.9'' model) and compare to my 12'' iBook, there is quite the difference. And in price, and you're going to see units moving!

And enough with this toy crap....I can do all my work on a netbook, because I tend to only use FireFox/OpenOffice when I'm on the go. Why would I pay 1299(or 999, if I wanted an older Mac) to do that? Plus deal with the extra hassle, and lower battery life?

ob81
Jan 1, 2009, 04:39 PM
The Macbook Air is Apple's version of a netbook. There are netbooks with better specs than the Macbook Air.

Macbook Air users are in the market for netbooks. They so called need portability and not that many features, which a netbook offers.

Apple decided on the "Apple" version of a netbook to charge customers more, and make more money.

People that fell for the Macbook Air gimmick would have shown the same support if it had been a $400-500 netbook Apple released, instead of the Macbook air.

I have been writing on internet forums since about 1998. I don't expect anyone to openly agree with anything that I just said, but one of those lines apply to most.

NC MacGuy
Jan 1, 2009, 06:44 PM
Maybe. Would have to see it first.

Hrududu
Jan 1, 2009, 07:01 PM
I wouldn't. I've already got too many laptops as is, and if I want to use a small one, my 12" Powerbook gets the job done. Any smaller than that, and it would drive me nuts. The 12" is a full featured computer with a full sized keyboard and perfect sized screen.

Maven1975
Jan 1, 2009, 07:09 PM
I put my money on a larger iPhone type tablet device. Apple is in love with multi touch and glass. It might even have a slide out screen that can change from a mouse/keyboard or other format with a touch of the screen.

kasakka
Jan 1, 2009, 07:25 PM
When the iPhone 3G was released in Finland, I was contemplating between buying a netbook or an iPhone. The iPhone won because I also wanted a new phone that wasn't a total usability nightmare (like my old little Samsung was). It has been a good choice so far.

Now my needs are different so I'm considering a Macbook Pro for a laptop. I want something to serve as a second computer. For that a netbook would almost work but I feel they're too slow and limited (though that's a problem I see with the Air as well except it doesn't have the size benefit).

puffnstuff
Jan 1, 2009, 09:11 PM
I would buy an 11"-12" MBA in a heart beat. When the MBA came out I was shocked that it was 13.3" 3lb and considered an ultra portable.

joegomolski
Jan 2, 2009, 10:29 AM
I'd buy a Apple Netbook, for sure. I'd be compulsed to add to my Apple colection!:):):)

mlblacy
Jan 2, 2009, 04:55 PM
LMAO! Since when is the air considered "full featured"?

Ahem, and since when is it not? Besides not having a DVD drive (haven't missed it), no firewire (haven't missed that either), I am not sure what exactly it is missing. Spare me the comparison to a macbook, as actually my choice was between a pro or the air. For me the air was perfect, as portability and weight were worth the price of the ticket (and the trade-offs, such as they were).

I run Quark, pshop, etc, with no problems whatsoever. I did not buy it as a workstation, as laptops sorta suck for extended periods (at least for what I do). However just last week I had a power supply go down on my workstation, and I was waiting for about 5 days for the repair. It was no big deal, I just plugged my drives (both firewire & usb2 interfaces) into my air and I was working. My biggest gripe was the lack of screen size, followed by the lack of daisy-chaining of my external drives...

Also I run my Optoma projector with no problems whatsoever. When traveling it has everything I need to work while on the road. So, what exactly am I missing? I don't get all the trolls and naysayers about the air, if you don't like it, don't buy one... as perhaps the product doesn't meet your needs. But, as a professional, the air fit my needs perfectly.

On topic, if Apple released a netbook, I would probably buy one of those as well...

Sorry to be cranky, but I don't see what I am missing that is not worth the gains I get with the air...

cheers,michael

NoSmokingBandit
Jan 2, 2009, 05:06 PM
Ahem, and since when is it not? Besides not having a DVD drive (haven't missed it), no firewire (haven't missed that either), I am not sure what exactly it is missing. Spare me the comparison to a macbook, as actually my choice was between a pro or the air. For me the air was perfect, as portability and weight were worth the price of the ticket (and the trade-offs, such as they were).


I've already listed the many feature the Air doesnt have. Its great that the air offers you everything you need, but the fact that its good enough for you doesnt change the definition of "full featured." Compare it to every other laptop on the market (not netbooks, the air is not a netbook) and you will see that it lacks in most areas. Sure, some people dont need those extras features, but the definition of Full Featured doesnt change based on what the Air users like/dislike. The point is that it was designed to not be full-featured and calling it so would be incorrect.

However, if apple did release a netbook at MW that is priced to compete with the rest of the market i may consider one, but knowing apple they will charge 2x as much as everyone else which means i wont even consider it, id rather just buy a Wind and hac it.

andreab35
Jan 2, 2009, 05:19 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't think I'll ever be in the market for a NetBook.
They are just too small for my taste. I already have bad eyes anyway... I can't view anything smaller for everyday use as a laptop!
The MacBook Air is perfect for me. Thin, portable, and beautiful. It's a great size for me to do my everyday things. :)

mlblacy
Jan 2, 2009, 06:29 PM
I've already listed the many feature the Air doesnt have. Its great that the air offers you everything you need, but the fact that its good enough for you doesnt change the definition of "full featured." Compare it to every other laptop on the market (not netbooks, the air is not a netbook) and you will see that it lacks in most areas. Sure, some people dont need those extras features, but the definition of Full Featured doesnt change based on what the Air users like/dislike. The point is that it was designed to not be full-featured and calling it so would be incorrect.


First off, feel free to call me a "zealot" or a "fanboy, which I am not (to a point).

That being said, I didn't care one what Dell, Toshiba, Sony have to sell... because I am strictly 100% a mac environment. I don't even have a windows emulator, as all my apps are mac based. I have a publishing and advertising company, and everything either comes in as a mac formatted doc, or as a PDF where the platform doesn't matter.

I quickly read through the thread again, but didn't see the magical benchmark for what comprises "full-featured" as mentioned. I can guess what they are though... bigger HD? more ram? faster processor? dedicated video card?? 8 USB ports & 4 firewire 800 ports???

I am not attempting to raise my choice for a laptop to full-featured in an attempt to psychologically enhance my "manhood" (I would buy a corvette if I was worried about that, lol).

I have been using macs since the plus (yikes), and have had MANY macs over the years. Some good, and some not so hot. There have only been a few that I could say were among the best I have had... an 840AV, a tireless g4 pro system, a 24" iMac that lured me away from the "pro" platform, and my air... which despite it's trade-offs is one of the best I have had. Detractors liken the air to the cube... however it is worth pointing out that few subsequent spin-offs ever came of that. However you only have to see the new direction with the glass-books (pro & macbooks), that apple learned a few things with the air.

Admittedly I agonized for a bit when I was making my decision, and went into the apple store twice as I tried to decide if it would serve my needs. I have had 6-ton laptops before, let me tell you they only get heavier when you are lugging them around. Ever pick up a 17" laptop before? Yikes...

Maybe you are someone who works on both sides, and not a troll (I know lots of folks who have both), but not me... so there would be no point in looking at the other offerings in the larger world.

cheers,
michael

minijon
Jan 2, 2009, 07:51 PM
Nope. If I buy anything it will be an xMac or a refurb Mac Pro.

NoSmokingBandit
Jan 2, 2009, 08:11 PM
First off, feel free to call me a "zealot" or a "fanboy, which I am not (to a point).

That being said, I didn't care one what Dell, Toshiba, Sony have to sell... because I am strictly 100% a mac environment. I don't even have a windows emulator, as all my apps are mac based. I have a publishing and advertising company, and everything either comes in as a mac formatted doc, or as a PDF where the platform doesn't matter.

I quickly read through the thread again, but didn't see the magical benchmark for what comprises "full-featured" as mentioned. I can guess what they are though... bigger HD? more ram? faster processor? dedicated video card?? 8 USB ports & 4 firewire 800 ports???

I am not attempting to raise my choice for a laptop to full-featured in an attempt to psychologically enhance my "manhood" (I would buy a corvette if I was worried about that, lol).

Maybe you are someone who works on both sides, and not a troll (I know lots of folks who have both), but not me... so there would be no point in looking at the other offerings in the larger world.

cheers,
michael
Your sarcasm makes me think you are a bit of a fanboy :p

Regardless...
Since you were unable to infer it from what i typed, "full-featured" is a laptop that has the same features as the average laptop on the market. The air does not have features that are the same as 90% of other laptops on the market. Just because it fits your needs does not qualify it as "full featured."
Im not sure where you coming from when you bring other computer manufacturers into this, but even compared to the MBP and MB the Air is not what one could consider "full featured." Sure, it may have all the neccesary features to work for you, but that doesnt change the fact that it is quite obviously lacking features that 90% of other computers have. How you fail to understand this is beyond me.

I actually do "work on both sides" as you put it. I use both windows and OSX because both OS's are great and offer something unique. I dont post things just to cause a ruckus, but sometimes people need to get away fromt he thought that apple is the only company in the computing industry that matters. I've used Linux extensively in the past and i regularly post on the ubuntu forums about how OSX and Windows arent 100% evil and are actually usable by the other 99% of the population. Much like everything else in life, OS's should be taken in moderation. Commit yourself too much to one and you quickly lose sight of what the rest have to offer.

I really didnt read the rest of your post because i didnt think a summary of your computing life was really relevant to the debate.

johnnj
Jan 2, 2009, 08:12 PM
Michael,

I more or less came to the same conclusion on tne MBA, but from a different perspective.

I started a somewhat quixotic quest for a new personal laptop back in September which has gone through quite a few iterations since then.

1. Acer Aspire One netbook
2. HP 2510 tablet
3. HP dv3510
4. Macbook 13" 2.0ghz
5. early 2008 15" MBP 2.4
6. MBP unibody 2.4
7. early 2008 15" MBP 2.5
8. MBA rev b SSD

I'm really a "Windows Guy", but I've used Macs previously and the VM/bootcamp situation makes the current Macs more or less OS-neutral, as far as I my needs go.

Originally I wanted a machine that was small and lightweight, yet capable. I also wanted it to be constructed well so as to hold up to the wear and tear of my commuting activities.

I sort of got caught up with the performance end of things and lost sight of what I started out after. The culmination of that was the last MBP, which I installed a 128 gig SSD for high performance OS/apps and and 250 gig hard drive (optibay) for storage and vmware. But.. it weighed a lot and was bulky.

I checked out the new revision of the Air and was impressed. Much moreso than when I played with the first one when it came out. So, it came down to either the MBA rev b or a Sony viao Z570. The Sony had the MBA beat cold on specs (2.53 GHZ, 3 gig 1066 ram expandable to 4 gig, dual 9300M+integrated graphics, switchable on the fly w/o logging, internal dvd-r, ethernet, etc), plus it was lighter and $500 less.

On paper it was king... in real life, it was the stereotypical flimsy, plasticy, cheesy PC laptop.

So, I ordered the Air, which came on Christmas Eve. I've been loving it. Ok, it doesn't win any performance contests... but I have my overclocked desktop for stuff that needs high performance. The MBA still runs vmware, runs Photoshop/Lightroom, and the one game I play on a laptop: Civ4. It does all of that at a level that is satisfactory given the fact that my bag feels like it has nothing in it.

I don't really care that it doesn't have an internal optical drive... my last MBP didn't have one after I modded it, either! The one USB port isn't a big deal... in the field I'd usually only have one device connected (air card, card reader) at a time and at home/work I use hubs, anyway.

I do wish the battery life was a little better, but now I have chargers everywhere I hang out with a laptop (I also wish they were't $80 a pop).

Perfect? No. Capable, portable, and COOL looking? Definitely.

John

Clix Pix
Jan 2, 2009, 09:07 PM
Today I was at Micro Center and so took another look at the various netbooks they have on offer.....I was able to get online (although usually Micro Center has web access blocked) and so went to a site where I had recently posted some photographic images, because I wanted to see how they looked on one of these machines. Heh.... My first-gen MBA beats those netbooks every way to Sunday when it comes to graphics! On my MBA those same images (which I had processed on my Mac Pro and 30" ACD) look good as far as color and clarity go..... On the netbooks, no way! Colors were washed out and detail/definition were lost. That is useful information. Of course if I were to buy one of those machines I wouldn't be using it for post-processing photographic images anyway. I was thinking of this more in terms of using one of the inexpensive netbooks as a way to stash images while still out in the field shooting and as a way of later quickly reviewing them and winnowing out the bad ones. Nope, now I don't think so. IMHO the graphic quality on those machines is not good enough to fairly evaluate an image -- unless it's clearly a non-keeper because it's blurry or not an interesting subject, whatever.

Aside from that I really would hesitate before bringing another Windows machine back into my home. This is now a totally Mac environment and I'd just as soon keep it that way!

If Apple brings out a new netbook, I probably would buy it once I determined that it met the specific requirements I have in terms of planned usage with regard to images, etc. If there is no netbook announced at MacWorld, well, fine, too.....

MacHappytjg
Jan 2, 2009, 09:11 PM
I suppose i would only because i got rid of my macbook there cheap and affordable assuming it will be, mainly cause it get annoyed of my ipod as a laptop lol

QCassidy352
Jan 2, 2009, 09:40 PM
But there IS a difference. I hold my 7'' EEE PC(which is the same size physically as the 8.9'' model) and compare to my 12'' iBook, there is quite the difference.

Sure, there's *some* difference. There's *some* difference between a 12" laptop and a 13" laptop, but it's a difference in degree, not a difference in kind. Netbook --> macbook is a difference in degree; iphone --> netbook is a difference in kind.

As for the fact that the price of netbooks is so much lower than a regular laptop - Ok, sure, but are you really going to make that your only computer? I highly doubt it. So while you could have just a MB(P) as your only machine, if you go with a netbook you'll also need a desktop.

Now, if you
A) already have a desktop,
B) and need more on-the-go functionality than a smart phone,
C) but do not need the on-the-go functionality of a full featured laptop,

then I see why a netbook is a good choice. But that's a lot of "ifs."

mlblacy
Jan 2, 2009, 09:48 PM
Your sarcasm makes me think you are a bit of a fanboy :p

Regardless...
Since you were unable to infer it from what i typed, "full-featured" is a laptop that has the same features as the average laptop on the market. The air does not have features that are the same as 90% of other laptops on the market. Just because it fits your needs does not qualify it as "full featured."
Im not sure where you coming from when you bring other computer manufacturers into this, but even compared to the MBP and MB the Air is not what one could consider "full featured." Sure, it may have all the neccesary features to work for you, but that doesnt change the fact that it is quite obviously lacking features that 90% of other computers have. How you fail to understand this is beyond me.

I actually do "work on both sides" as you put it. I use both windows and OSX because both OS's are great and offer something unique. I dont post things just to cause a ruckus, but sometimes people need to get away fromt he thought that apple is the only company in the computing industry that matters. I've used Linux extensively in the past and i regularly post on the ubuntu forums about how OSX and Windows arent 100% evil and are actually usable by the other 99% of the population. Much like everything else in life, OS's should be taken in moderation. Commit yourself too much to one and you quickly lose sight of what the rest have to offer.

I really didnt read the rest of your post because i didnt think a summary of your computing life was really relevant to the debate.

Hi, the summary is only relevant in reference to the ones I didn't mention. However, the air is one of my favorites out of many that I have had. As far as the sarcasm, I do tend to be a bit snarky all by myself, which has nothing to do with fanboydom.

I was guessing your criticism of the air was in comparison to all other laptops. Usually Apple has been a bit ahead of the curve, and sometimes uncomfortably so. If you have been around for a bit most of us can remember the hits & misses (the hockey puck mouse, the lack of floppy, the switch away from scsi, the lack of firewire, etc....). Usually Apple gets it right, imo, and also usually there is a chorus of naysayers saying it will never work (ie. the ipod, the iTunes store, etc...).

Somehow I can't believe that the Air only offers 10% of what "all other computers" need/have. I also understand that they had to make concessions along the way for the form of the air. Honestly, what I fail to understand is how folks (especially those who don't own one) feel so compelled to complain about how such and such falls short. When folks do that I always wonder what the motivation is. My motivation I guess, is just to provide a balancing opinion from someone who has one, and is happy (warts and all).

Hopefully you will take this with a grain of salt though. Despite my love for a bit of snarky sparring, I don't mean any malice...

Apple is not the only computer company that matters, however the world would be more interesting if more of them would think and innovate like they do so well. Personally, I hope they come out with a car...

Long ago, I joked that if Apple went under I would buy a hot dog cart (and switch careers). I once worked in an openly hostile IT environment, where the PC IT folks would offer no assistance, but still tried to gain "control" over our systems (but without understanding or actually supporting them). In the earlier days of professional "desktop" publishing macs were the only option out there. PCs had no standards for fonts or color imaging (unless you considered the proprietary high-end systems like scitex, etc.). Coming from that background I am a bit defensive. I also see the apple often makes things work simpler, and better.

All this history is relevant, especially as one wonders what the future holds for apple, and for life after steve (if he should decide to retire). I joke about the "dark side" often, but honestly I don't care if other folks are happy with their pc's/linexs. Good for them, if they are happy. I personally think apple has a better product, and the tight integration between the hard & software is a big plus. I have helped many folks who have come from PCs to move to their first macs over the years. Teachers, retirees, artists, photographers, designers, etc... not one has ever said it was a mistake. In fact they are usually smitten with how much better it is on the mac side. Things just work...

You are right I suppose about one's OS being taken in moderation, however I still think I would take the hot dog cart over switching at this point, lol. So... about those netbooks... bring them on.... along with a 30" Imac, an appletv that has DVR functionality, and while I'm dreaming... and iPhone for those of us stricken with Verizon.

regards,
michael

DrEasy
Jan 3, 2009, 01:22 AM
Well, they got all the infrastructure in place, with TimeCapsule and whatnot, so they might as well give the MBA a little brother:

MacBook Air Mini, the new member of the Air family. Lighter than Air.

It would probably be somewhere between 9' and 11' (I trust Apple to come up with the best compromise), and they could market it as the "Lightest Laptop Ever".

They will stick a rather potent chip in it, and price it at around $999, to keep their delicious margins (and overall build quality) and not overshadow the big brother. But of course the big brother will also probably take a big price cut. Because of the price and quality, it won't be exactly a Netbook. It's not competition to the MacBook either, because it will lack the ports, the drive and the power.

And I'll buy one. :D

Why shouldn't they do this? It could be part of a Mini theme for the expo, if the Mac mini rumors are well-founded.

Dr_Maybe
Jan 3, 2009, 09:45 AM
The Air weighs about the same as those plasticy netbooks. So what would be the point except making it cheaper?

darngooddesign
Jan 3, 2009, 10:15 AM
Assuming the specs were similar, would you pay $400 for a Hackintoshed netbook or $800 for the official Apple netbook?

iMacmatician
Jan 3, 2009, 10:28 AM
Assuming the specs were similar, would you pay $400 for a Hackintoshed netbook or $800 for the official Apple netbook?Well...the Apple netbook would be 1/2 the thickness... :p

I'd get the Apple version, due to Mac OS X.

rick3000
Jan 3, 2009, 10:35 AM
It depends. I really wanted to get a netbook for my dad, because he is a pilot. I almost got him one for Christmas, but I just couldn't bring myself to buy a PC. I would definitely get him a mac netbook if there under $600 preferable $500. But I'd have to see it.

Maven1975
Jan 3, 2009, 02:50 PM
Who knows, The new Mini might be a netbook with a dock.

darngooddesign
Jan 3, 2009, 04:21 PM
Well...the Apple netbook would be 1/2 the thickness... :p

I'd get the Apple version, due to Mac OS X.

That's why I said Hackintoshed.

To clarify, would you pay $400 for an MSI Wind with OSX installed and everything working, or $800 for Apple's official one?

pbkiller
Jan 3, 2009, 06:54 PM
I come to think that the MBA is Apple's netbook, with a high price tag. If the Air's price would come down, those babies would be selling like hotcakes (take for example in Best Buy, when they lowered the clearance price to $1150, they were being sold out on every store).

I've seen so many netbooks out there, not convinced.

So to answer the OP's question, no i would not buy an Apple netbook...

glitch44
Jan 3, 2009, 07:07 PM
That's why I said Hackintoshed.

To clarify, would you pay $400 for an MSI Wind with OSX installed and everything working, or $800 for Apple's official one?

personally, i'd pay $800 for the official one. on some Winds the 10.5.6 update temporarily broke some things (i believe trackpad or wireless) until ktexts were reapplied. when i was younger i was into taking things apart, upgrading my tivo on my own, figuring out how to make things work, but now that i have so little time for such things i'd pay more to have something work without any issues whatsoever.

i just don't want the hassle of it suddenly not working, which with my luck would be on vacation when i don't have a good wifi connection and my girlfriend angry at me for it not working.

archipellago
Jan 3, 2009, 07:09 PM
That's why I said Hackintoshed.

To clarify, would you pay $400 for an MSI Wind with OSX installed and everything working, or $800 for Apple's official one?


any debate on price in a Mac forum is doomed to failure..!;)

fools and their money...

archipellago
Jan 3, 2009, 07:10 PM
personally, i'd pay $800 for the official one. on some Winds the 10.5.6 update temporarily broke some things (i believe trackpad or wireless) until ktexts were reapplied. when i was younger i was into taking things apart, upgrading my tivo on my own, figuring out how to make things work, but now that i have so little time for such things i'd pay more to have something work without any issues whatsoever.

i just don't want the hassle of it suddenly not working, which with my luck would be on vacation when i don't have a good wifi connection and my girlfriend angry at me for it not working.


see..?

prosecution rests

zap2
Jan 3, 2009, 07:15 PM
Sure, there's *some* difference. There's *some* difference between a 12" laptop and a 13" laptop, but it's a difference in degree, not a difference in kind. Netbook --> macbook is a difference in degree; iphone --> netbook is a difference in kind.

As for the fact that the price of netbooks is so much lower than a regular laptop - Ok, sure, but are you really going to make that your only computer? I highly doubt it. So while you could have just a MB(P) as your only machine, if you go with a netbook you'll also need a desktop.

Now, if you
A) already have a desktop,
B) and need more on-the-go functionality than a smart phone,
C) but do not need the on-the-go functionality of a full featured laptop,

then I see why a netbook is a good choice. But that's a lot of "ifs."

The difference between a MacBook Pro and Netbook is quite large, and I'm sure some would want both

As for using a netbook as my only computer, I did when my Mini went down. Give me a external display external mouse and keyboard, and I'll consider it. And I'm sure many people would use a 10'' laptop.

Not to mention people who own desktop and just need a small portable laptop is quite large.


But I honestly don't understand why people still don't think there is a market for netbooks, there clearly is! They are selling, people want them. Apple should fill the spot!

glitch44
Jan 3, 2009, 07:53 PM
see..?

prosecution rests

You calling me a fool? I'm sorry but I don't have time to search around for a missing ktext when an OS update breaks it. I'm a freelancer who needs my laptop for work. The money I'd lose from half a day out of commission is far more than the extra $400 for an official version of a laptop. I'm not a fool or a snob-- it's economics.

I completely understand if you're a hobbyist trying to save money going the hackintosh route. But mine is for work.

angemon89
Jan 3, 2009, 10:20 PM
I've realized I don't even need an Apple laptop because I have an iPhone. That's why I'm currently selling my BlackBook. So no, I wouldn't get it.

AC Rempt
Jan 4, 2009, 01:59 AM
I've been looking at netbooks for fun, but they are just too small for some like me with big hands. Typing is not fun on those things, even ones with 92% keyboards like the HP model.

I'll stick with my Air, thanks.

coupdetat
Jan 4, 2009, 10:12 AM
Nah. My Air is much more useful than a netbook and weighs nearly the same. I do some heavy duty work for my engineering classes that a netbook would be unable to cope with. Having a full-power computer that is comfortable for hours, yet only 3lbs and .7" thick, is priceless. My usual bag is big enough to accomodate the Air, so I see no reason to move to a netbook.

archipellago
Jan 4, 2009, 06:39 PM
You calling me a fool? I'm sorry but I don't have time to search around for a missing ktext when an OS update breaks it. I'm a freelancer who needs my laptop for work. The money I'd lose from half a day out of commission is far more than the extra $400 for an official version of a laptop. I'm not a fool or a snob-- it's economics.

I completely understand if you're a hobbyist trying to save money going the hackintosh route. But mine is for work.



if it was economics you'd buy a Wind (or similar) and put Ubuntu on it..

QCassidy352
Jan 4, 2009, 07:22 PM
The difference between a MacBook Pro and Netbook is quite large, and I'm sure some would want both

A pound and half difference is not "quite large" in my book, but I guess some could see it that way.

As for using a netbook as my only computer, I did when my Mini went down. Give me a external display external mouse and keyboard, and I'll consider it.

So then I take it you don't play games, do much with photos or video, or basically do any work that requires substantial processor power?

Not to mention people who own desktop and just need a small portable laptop is quite large.

I think the number of people who need more than an iphone but less than a macbook is quite small indeed.

But I honestly don't understand why people still don't think there is a market for netbooks, there clearly is! They are selling, people want them.

Yes, you're right. My point is simply that I can't imagine why (except for the narrow circumstance I described before).

techfreak85
Jan 4, 2009, 07:24 PM
if it was under 500. yes. id sell my whity macbook and get me a netbook. all my intensive stuff is on my imac. my macbook is for school, and internet and when i dont wanna get out of bed lol