The 2009 (Gainestown) Mac Pro: Everything We Know [Archive]

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Tallest Skil

Jan 16, 2009, 02:32 PM

Slight niggle here: Please, please, PLEASE keep this discussion limited to the Mac Pro. If someone wants to make a thread for the xMac like this, I would be happy to see one, but don't post any xMac ramblings here, please. Thank you in advance.

Updated to cleanup after Post-Release Information. All speculation will remain for historical value.

This first post will be probably not be edited anymore. If it is, they'll be in red.

This thread exists because I acknowledge that, while I have been very good at getting future specs correct in the past, I'm a little out of my league here. I don't know much about Intel's workstation hardware. I just want to learn more, is all! It's never a bad thing to learn. Also, it's nice to have a repository of information. Remember Multimedia's huge thread? I just hope that I don't wind up banned because of this one... :o:(

Points yet to be decided upon:
FireWire: two 800 or two 400/two 800 (unlikely)
SSD: Will we see 2.5" drives with a tray adapter?
AirPort Extreme: Will it be standard?

Hardware Specifications:
2.66, 2.8, 2.93, and 3.2GHz 8-core Gainestown Xeon processors
2 risers with 12 slots for unbuffered 1333MHz ECC DDR3 RAM. It will not be FB-DIMMs. They can be added one, two, or three at a time. Up to 96GB of RAM will be physically possible at release. Registered RAM can also be used.
The ODDs will change to SATA.
The three graphics options will be: up to REMOVED FOR REASONS OF NDA
500GB HDD standard, with options for 750, 1TB, and 2TB, as well as an SSD option (potential size?) and a 300, 450, or 600GB SAS option.

I/O:
PCIe 2.0 expansion: two 16x and two 4x, or four 16x (here's something: two double-wide 16x, plus two others?)
Bluetooth 2.1 EDR
5 (minimum) USB 2.0
Dual gigabit Ethernet
Optical audio I/O
Analog audio I/O
RAID card option

Things we won't see:
USB 3.0 (2010, people)
WiMax (just making sure you're paying attention)
Blu-ray (see below)

Narrative:

SO! It's almost that time of the cycle again! We're getting closer to the beloved 518 days since a Mac Pro update, and boy, oh, boy, are things heating up! Or at least, they SHOULD have been. In fact, Gainestown was scheduled for a November 2008 production back in the middle of last year, but, along with everything else in the Nehalem line (except for Core i7...dorks...), has been pushed back. Gainestown is out as of the last week of January. We can infer the release date from here.

The processor, Gainestown:

Gainestown is the two-processor variant of the Nehalem Xeon. The processor configuration in the Gainestown Mac Pro will be similar to the current setup–two 4-core chips coming to 8 total cores–but with one stylistic change: because of the architecture, we will be getting 16 logical cores, all of which will be usable with Snow Leopard. The two most likely candidates for the Nehalem Mac Pro are the W5580 and the X5570. It will also include either (both?) the X5560 or the X5550. These four processors clock in at 3.2, 2.93, 2.8, and 2.66GHz, respectively. In 1,000 count lots, these processors cost $3,200, $2,772, $2,344, and $1,916, respectively.

That's a lot of money for the upper three, folks. I'll get into why those prices are significant later.

Assuming the 2.8GHz chip as the standard configuration, the base model price is expected to jump to around $3,000. Assuming the 2.66GHz chip as a BTO option to make it cheaper, the lowest price for the Mac Pro would become around $2,500.

The chipset, Tylersburg:

Gainestown goes in the Tylersburg chipset. Tylersburg supports 36 PCIe 2.0 lanes on each of two I/O hubs, meaning that we could see up to 4 PCIe 2.0 16x slots and 2 PCIe 2.0 4x slots. That's cool. I personally refuse to believe that Apple would do that, for various reasons known only to them. I think that we might see either two 16x and two 4x or four 16x.

Tylersburg also has SLI support. This is... certainly something. Much can be inferred from this, so I'll summarize. It's either one of two things:

1. Boot Camp Windows SLI support. This is highly probable.
2. SLI will be available in Snow Leopard. You will be able to get two Quadro FX 5800, SLI them, and blow the fricking crap out of every other computer on the planet in terms of non-gaming performance. This is NOT probable. Or happening. At all. But it would rock. I'm just saying...

The Little Things:

AirPort Extreme (802.11 a/b/g/n): Will it remain optional? I thought the reasoning behind this was that some businesses didn't want Wi-Fi in their computers, but I could be way off. It's been QUITE a while since I've heard any rationale on leaving it out.

FireWire: The current Mac Pro has two 400 and two 800. Here is the only other plausible scenario: two 800 only. I do not believe that Apple will retain the FireWire 400, given they removed it from their other pro product, the MacBook Pro, and failed to add it to the 17" model after three months' time to see the response.

GPUs: Discussion on what GPUs will be available is open, as well, but what about Mini DisplayPort? I believe that Apple will have all models include two Mini DisplayPort ports, and include IN THE BOX two Mini DisplayPort to single-link DVI adapters (making the dual-link DVI adapter a BTO thing at, perhaps, a slight discount?)

Blu-ray: Ugh. Here it is. Apple will be forced to add Blu-ray around 2015 to remain competitive with video media.

400GB Blu-ray disks will be in production in 2012-3. “What’s the point?” you ask. Super Hi-Vision. Super Hi-Vision is the next video format. It’s 7680x4320. That’s 4320p. Super Hi-Vision in MPEG-2 is 600Mb/s.

U.S. Internet speeds WILL NOT keep up with this. Heck, most of us can’t get 1080p in anywhere near a decent amount of time. To top it off, many of the major ISPs are putting monthly caps on bandwidth and time limits on the maximum advertised speed of their service.

We won’t be able to download 4320p movies in iTunes because our ISPs will give us the freaking shaft. It’ll be days to the download, even in 2015. We’ll all mostly have the bandwidth for very quick 1080p movie downloads, so iTunes will be able to offer that, but it’ll be the same situation in the future as it is now: Instead of people having 1920x1080 TVs with their SD iTunes movies playing on them through an Apple TV, people will have 7680x4320 TVs with 1080p movies playing on them through an Apple TV.

Where do I get my date for Super Hi-Vision adoption? Well, Japan will start 4320p television broadcasts in 2012, and the 400GB Blu-ray disks go into production in 2013… Television manufacturers are starting to make half-Super Hi-Vision TVs (4096x2160) on the highest-end already.

Redesign talk:

Any Mac Pro redesign would not be radical. Feel free, however to post your mockups. My iteration (excuse the crappy perspective art) is below, and other (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=6960628#post6960628) iterations (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=6960619#post6960619) in (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=6962480#post6962480) this (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=6962572&posted=1#post6962572) thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=7053962#post7053962) can (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=645740) be (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=7096198#post7096198) reached (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=7099772#post7099772) by following these links.

Explanation Section:

Release date: Based on the pushing back of production dates and the build time required thereafter, late spring or WWDC 2009 are good dates for release. Coincidentally, WWDC 2009 takes place exactly 518 days after the release of the Penryn Mac Pro, so for those of you following my "518 days conspiracy", you know what I'm talking about. ;) The release date is independent of Snow Leopard's release; they have nothing to do with one another. In the past, the Mac Pro has been released from 6-13 weeks after production begins. Gainestown is in production with official release in March.

$2,999: Apple should be getting a better price than that of the 1,000 lot price, because they'll be ordering more. However, the per-consumer price of Harpertown was the same as the 1,000 lot price for those chips so we'll see something very similar with Gainestown.

SATA ODDs: Based on the change for the MacBook line. Besides, even though ODDs don't get anywhere close to saturating the SATA transfer rate, ATA is old, man! Tylersburg supports six SATA ports, so that's four for HDDs, and then the other two (which exist on the current logic board hidden behind the fans–some people use them) can be used for the ODDs. Also, Tylersburg doesn't even have support for PATA connectors, so it's a lock.

More to be added: your input is greatly appreciated. Discussion, ho!

Contributors:

Umbongo: general Tylersburg info, GPU suggestions, real-world RAM limits, RAM installation abilities, and better thread title than my unposted original
RobLS: reminding me about AirPort
Mattww: reminding me to add RAM clock speed and ECC
Greenhoe: reminding me about Mini DisplayPort on the GPUs.
rylin: for giving me the color timestamp idea
Eidorian: Radeon 4670 correction
J the Ninja: convincing me that they'll only use two risers. It makes sense.
iMacmatician: multiple lowest-end GPU reminder, CPU speculation, and Blu-ray placement fix
bradleykavin: I needed to add downtime between production and release
BenRoethig: Tylersburg board types
thoshino: reminding me about the "16 logical cores" bit
hubiedubie: Finding the W5580 in stock
Quash: Finding all of Gainestown in stock
ncc1701d: confirming 2TB 3.5" HDD release
nanofrog: hardware RAID clear-up, crucial hardware isn't out, RAM clear-ups, FireWire 3200 bit
ehurtley: SATA ODD bit, Tylersburg naming convention and board info

So! We were close.

And by that, I mean... on everything except the processors, GPUs, number of DIMM slots, and the slight redesign.

Apple gave us more FireWire than we thought. That's good.
Apple gave us...

Okay, well, we got most of it right, anyway. Good job, everyone.

jhero

Jan 16, 2009, 02:35 PM

Very informative Tallest,

Thanks!

Dr.Pants

Jan 16, 2009, 02:39 PM

Now, Gainestown goes in the Tylersburg chipset. Here's where my knowledge breaks down. From what I've read on Tylersburg, it looks like we can have two 16x PCIe 2.0 slots like we have now, but then only one more PCIe 2.0 (?) 4x slot, and that's it. Only three?

This is personal conjecture, but maybe the total nuber of lanes available in the PCIe bus add up to 2x 16x ans 1x 4x, just as the current MacPro has a certain number of PCIe 16x slots but not enough lanes to fill the slots.

Tallest Skil

Jan 16, 2009, 02:42 PM

This is personal conjecture, but maybe the total nuber of lanes available in the PCIe bus add up to 2x 16x ans 1x 4x, just as the current MacPro has a certain number of PCIe 16x slots but not enough lanes to fill the slots.

I don't know. This article (http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2008/05/30/nehalem-and-x58-show-up-in-taipei/1) is from May of last year, but it is the most recent information I could find. It says:

It also features 36 lanes of PCI-Express 2.0 so you’ll get a full x16 by x16 and even an x4 thrown in for free...

Umbongo

Jan 16, 2009, 03:22 PM

The Nehalem Mac Pro will be released at WWDC 2009*.
While I don't think Apple need to tie hardware launches to events this does seem plausible. One thing I'd like to say that relates to this is I don't think we will see the new Mac Pros shipping with Leopard. So if we get a better idea of a Snow Leopard release date that could help with a timeframe.
The three graphics options will be: _______, ________, and the nVidia Quadro FX 5800
While I think the FX 5800 is the most likely "Pro" card, the 4800 would also fit the bill here. I think if it were to come out now we would be seeing the GTX 260 as the mid card and 9600GT or maybe the Radeon 4650 as the base card. So anything comming to replace them in the next few months is a possibility I guess.
Now, Gainestown is the two-processor variant of the Nehalem Xeon. The three most likely candidates for the Nehalem Mac Pro are the W5580, the X5570, and the X5560. These three processors clock in at 3.2, 2.93, and 2.8GHz, respectively. In 1,000 count lots, these processors cost $3,200, $2,772, and $2,344, respectively.
You've ignored the 2.66GHz X5550 ($958) which myself and others believe will be the base choice, I thought I've seen you suggest that too. I figure we will see that as the base choice and probably 2.93GHz and 3.2GHz options, with Apple skipping the 2.8GHz. The 2.66GHz processors should perform as good as or better than the current 3.2GHz, so while Apple may not like having a lower number for marketing they can use the "faster than blah blah blah" speal. It'll be interesting to see how they handle the iMacs if they go quad core.
Now, Gainestown goes in the Tylersburg chipset. Here's where my knowledge breaks down. From what I've read on Tylersburg, it looks like we can have two 16x PCIe 2.0 slots like we have now, but then only one more PCIe 2.0 4x slot, and that's it. Only three?
Tylersburg can support two I/O Hubs which support 36 lanes each. This means we could see workstation boards with four x16 and two x4 slots. A Mac Pro with four PCI-E 2.0 x16 slots seems perfectly possible. This isn't limited to dual processor boards either, we could see this sort of thing in the enthusiast market too for supporting more than two graphics cards.
$2,999: Apple should be getting a better price than that of the 1,000 lot price, because they'll be ordering more. However, Apple is a for-profit company. This price is based on the assumption that Apple's profit margins push the per-consumer price of the chips back to their 1,000 lot price, and then adding the cost of the other components and case on top of the cheapest potential Gainestown chip.
In regards to the price, I originally suggested the $2,999 price after the Xeon lineup was posted here based on the following:

The 5150 Woodcrest processors cost ~$700 each, the Harpertown 5462s cost ~$800, nothing else really changed on the 2008 Mac Pro but it went up $200. Both of these systems are roughly the price of their components at retail prices. With the 2.66Ghz X5550 processors being listed at $950 it seems likely the price will go up again, though I think $3,099 is nowhere near as palatable as a $2,999 sticker price.

RobLS

Jan 16, 2009, 03:25 PM

I still don't believe that it will be 3k starting. Thats where I stand on that. Everything else is pure speculation I think. Here goes the way though, tick tock tick tock. :apple:

jjahshik32

Jan 16, 2009, 03:36 PM

I still don't believe that it will be 3k starting. Thats where I stand on that. Everything else is pure speculation I think. Here goes the way though, tick tock tick tock. :apple:

I agree, I have a feeling it will be priced the same if not slightly cheaper.

bofar

Jan 16, 2009, 03:40 PM

Tallest Skil

Jan 16, 2009, 03:42 PM

The wikipedia entry, List of Future Intel Xeon Microprocessors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_future_Intel_Xeon_microprocessors) has much lower price points for the Gainestown processors. As an example, it lists $1,600 as the price of the 3.2 GHz Xeon W5580. Perhaps you are quoting the cost of two processors for $3,200?

Yes, I am. Apple offers dual processor models, and I am operating under the assumption that they will not offer a single processor model with Gainestown, what with potential to advertise the 16 logical cores to their fullest with Snow Leopard.

RobLS

Jan 16, 2009, 03:44 PM

My reasoning behind this, is because the price of the base increase last time was that it was going from 4 core standard to 8 core standard, and it wasn't charge a full core extra either. And when you look at the current setup, you can get knocked down to 4 core if you want and save 500$, even though the cost of the core itself is 700. Apple keeps it competitive to a degree right off the bat, they just don't adjust the prices really as the product life cycle goes on, look at ram prices for example.

So yeah, theres my reasoning, even if the new xeon is more expensive, I think it can be competitively dropped. They did that when the G5 turned to Mac Pro, apple does compete lol.

J the Ninja

Jan 16, 2009, 04:04 PM

Well, assuming the new boards also support running with one socket empty, there should be a single proc variant, probably priced around $2,400.

Something I want to mention is the possiblity of a lower end line using the the 3500 Xeons. Before you form your reactions to this, I need to give a little background. Intel's server line, as of the last few years, has been split into 4 groups:

3*** - Essentially desktop chips with a different name on the box

5*** - Dual-processor workstation/server chips

7*** - "Multi-processor" x86 (or x86-64) chips

9*** - Itanium, what remains of Intel's attempt at replacing x86 back around 2000. It lives on as a high-end multi-proc server chip. We were supposed to have this in all our computers, even things like laptops. That never happened, you can visit Wiki for the story on why (short version: It was at least as hot and slow as what it was meant to replace).

In the past, Intel has used a different platform for all 4, but they seem to be cutting it down to 2-3. During the Core 2 era, the 3*** chips used Socket 775 (since they were rebadged desktop chips), but the 5*** used Socket 771. So using both in a line got pretty complex and expensive, as you'd need two completely different board designs. Not to mention, I'm not aware of any 775 board that supported FB-DIMM, much less mountains of it. So, mixing the lines would've produced two ENTIRELY different machines, hence why we never saw a Core 2 Quad-based Mac Pro. Not feasable. Only the top 3 or so chips could be used without cannibalizing iMac sales, and there were very little cost savings.

This time around, things are a little different. i7 and Gainestown both use socket LGA 1366. They use the same kind of RAM*. Gainestown has some extra Quick-Path links for the additional CPU, but that's it. As far as I know, given the right firmware, you could build a board that could accommodate either one. The prices are cheaper, at least for the lower-end two. It's a little shakey, but it could allow Apple to sell a base model for just under $2k, which would look good to those staring down $3k for the 8-core.

*The only real hiccup is that the 3500 series doesn't support ECC, although that is something that could be given up for a low-end line.

Mattww

Jan 16, 2009, 04:05 PM

Everything in Tallest Skil's post is what I am expecting. It would be nice if they made the stock model the 2.8GHz but price is definitely an issue unless they want to push the Mac Pro away from the prosumers.

I'm not sure what speed the DDR3 RAM will be but I think it is safe to say it will be ECC.

FireWire 3200 would be really nice as would e-SATA - I'd imagine the worst case is FW800 only and spare SATA ports on the logic board again.

USB 3.0 would be nice but sounds unlikely to be ready in time.

It would be nice if they fit one of the new quiet Pioneer SATA DVD writers as the optical drive on the current machines is probably the loudest thing!

Umbongo

Jan 16, 2009, 04:19 PM

Well, assuming the new boards also support running with one socket empty, there should be a single proc variant, probably priced around $2,400.

Something I want to mention is the possiblity of a lower end line using the the 3500 Xeons. It's a little shakey, but it could allow Apple to sell a base model for just under $2k, which would look good to those staring down $3k for the 8-core.

I understand where you are comming from but it's basically the same argument as to why Apple do / don't make an "xMac". In the end it's another computer line and one it doesn't seem Apple are interested in. I would love to see it though.

Dragonforce

Jan 16, 2009, 04:23 PM

Thank you for setting up this thread.
Kudos to you :cool: and keep it updated :apple:

nanofrog

Jan 16, 2009, 05:05 PM

Hardware Specifications:
2.8 (or 2.66), 2.93, and 3.2GHz
Up to 12 slots for 1333MHz ECC DDR3 RAM. It will not be FB-DIMMs. They must be added in sets of three DIMMs at once.

The X5550 (2.66GHz) is the likely candidate. It's the lowest cost part that supports 1333MHz ECC DDR3. I agree Apple will likely skip the 2.8GHz part.

The memory does not have to be added in sets of 3. It can be operated in single, double, and triple channel modes. Due to cost, I'm hesitant to think Apple will provide a triple channel configuration in the base model.
I'm not sure what speed the DDR3 RAM will be but I think it is safe to say it will be ECC.

As they're server parts, it will be ECC.

Tallest Skil

Jan 16, 2009, 05:09 PM

The memory does not have to be added in sets of 3. It can be operated in single, double, and triple channel modes. Due to cost, I'm hesitant to think Apple will provide a triple channel configuration in the base model.

Which of the three do you think is most likely? Silly question, so...

Is dual or triple more likely?

Apple could offer either 2x2GB or 3x1GB and still have more RAM standard.

Another question upon which to base our judgement, even though I'm pretty sure the answer is, "No.": Can the current Xeon line run in single channel mode? Can it do so in PC models?

If it cannot, then–and maybe it's just me–I would think that Apple would only provide 3xDIMM upgrades themselves (and therefore supply us with 3xDIMMs from the beginning), even if you can add single or dual DIMMs on your own later.

nanofrog

Jan 16, 2009, 05:18 PM

Which of the three do you think is most likely? Silly question, so...

Is dual or triple more likely?

Apple could offer either 2x2GB or 3x1GB and still have more RAM standard.

Another question upon which to base our judgement, even though I'm pretty sure the answer is, "No.": Can the current Xeon line run in single channel mode? Can it do so in PC models?

If it cannot, then–and maybe it's just me–I would think that Apple would only provide 3xDIMM upgrades themselves (and therefore supply us with 3xDIMMs from the beginning), even if you can add single or dual DIMMs on your own later.

Given the increase in the CPU pricing, single channel is likely IMO. Say 2x 2GB/CPU.

J the Ninja

Jan 16, 2009, 05:23 PM

Given the increase in the CPU pricing, single channel is likely IMO. Say 2x 2GB/CPU.

It's not worth it though. The savings would be tiny. 3x1GB runs around $150. 2x1GB about $75-$100, and 2x2GB around $150-$200. Not much, unless the premium for ECC turns out to be outrageous (those numbers are for non-ECC) My guess is they'd do 3x1GB just to put "tri-channel" in the marketing literature.

Also, I may be wrong on this, but wouldn't you need to do tri-channel to get a higher effective speed than the last machine with quad channel?

m1stake

Jan 16, 2009, 05:26 PM

Triple channel is locked in.

Also ECC DDR3 is very, very expensive.

Tallest Skil

Jan 16, 2009, 05:33 PM

Triple channel is locked in.

Also ECC DDR3 is very, very expensive.

I can imagine that it will be... :( No immediate third-party RAM upgrade for me...

So tri-channel is a lock, then? And upgrades must be done in threes?

J the Ninja

Jan 16, 2009, 05:36 PM

I can imagine that it will be... :( No immediate third-party RAM upgrade for me...

So tri-channel is a lock, then? And upgrades must be done in threes?

I just did a bit of Googling and Amazon searching, and ECC looks to be around double the cost of an equivalent non-ECC piece, unless you buy Kingston, which seems to oddly be about the same price as the non-ECC ones....weird.

Although that might come down once Gainestown is released, as that should push demand up.

Umbongo

Jan 16, 2009, 05:38 PM

Another question upon which to base our judgement, even though I'm pretty sure the answer is, "No.": Can the current Xeon line run in single channel mode? Can it do so in PC models?
The 5400 chipset that the Mac Pros use only supports single channel when running a single 512mb stick for testing purposes. It isn't clear what the memory configuration limitations of the dual socket Tylersburg platform is yet. My guess is it will support 1+ DIMMs.

My guess is they'd do 3x1GB just to put "tri-channel" in the marketing literature.

Yeah the memory configuration will probably be purely about marketing, either tri-channel or having 4GB as standard I guess. Seeing as the macbook Pros have 4GB I hope they go with 2x2GB DIMMs as that is surely the best for consumers. It's also worth bearing in mind that Apple have shipped the bare minimum amount of memory on their workstations for a long time.
Also, I may be wrong on this, but wouldn't you need to do tri-channel to get a higher effective speed than the last machine with quad channel?
I think the on chip memory controller of Nehalem should make all memory configurations on the Nehalem platform better than what was previously available.

Umbongo

Jan 16, 2009, 05:40 PM

I posted this yesterday on memory pricing. It's for DDR3 PC3-10600 (1333MHz) DIMMS:

Registered ECC is currently $95/GB from Crucial and Unbuffered ECC is $55.50/GB in 2GB DIMMs. I don't know if non-ecc unbuffered will be supported, but it is currently going for $35/GB. For comparison sakes Crucial charge $34/GB for the current Mac Pro and OWC are now at $24/GB. OWC were $50/GB when the Mac Pros launched if I remember right.

nanofrog

Jan 16, 2009, 05:41 PM

It's not worth it though. The savings would be tiny. 3x1GB runs around $150. 2x1GB about $75-$100, and 2x2GB around $150-$200. Not much, unless the premium for ECC turns out to be outrageous (those numbers are for non-ECC) My guess is they'd do 3x1GB just to put "tri-channel" in the marketing literature.

Also, I may be wrong on this, but wouldn't you need to do tri-channel to get a higher effective speed than the last machine with quad channel?
Currently, Crucial (http://www.crucial.com/store/listmodule/DDR3/list.html) has pricing up for DDR3-1333 ECC Unbuffered memory. (Keep in mind, Apple, or any other system vendor doesn't pay these prices). ;)

1GB (http://www.crucial.com/store/partspecs.aspx?IMODULE=CT12872BA1339) is $56.99
2GB (http://www.crucial.com/store/partspecs.aspx?IMODULE=CT25672BA1339) is $110.99
2GB Kit (http://www.crucial.com/store/partspecs.aspx?IMODULE=CT2KIT12872BA1339) (2x1GB) $113.99
3GB Kit (http://www.crucial.com/store/partspecs.aspx?IMODULE=CT3KIT12872BA1339) (3x1GB) is $170.99
4GB Kit (http://www.crucial.com/store/partspecs.aspx?IMODULE=CT2KIT25672BA1339) (2x2GB) is $221.99
6GB Kit (http://www.crucial.com/store/partspecs.aspx?IMODULE=CT3KIT25672BA1339) (3x2GB) is $332.99

Yes, you get the maximum throughput from triple channel, and is the way to go if at all possible. :D

But 2 3GB Kits would be needed at a minimum for triple channel for both processors, and I just can't see Apple putting $342 (current e-tail) worth of memory in the base. :(

J the Ninja

Jan 16, 2009, 05:45 PM

Yeah the memory configuration will probably be purely about marketing, either tri-channel or having 4GB as standard I guess. Seeing as the macbook Pros have 4GB I hope they go with 2x2GB DIMMs as that is surely the best for consumers. It's also worth bearing in mind that Apple have shipped the bare minimum amount of memory on their workstations for a long time.

I think the on chip memory controller of Nehalem should make all memory configurations on the Nehalem platform better than what was previously available.

All that really gives you though is a "memory throughput" benchmark you could use to paper over the clock drop. You'll still have people wondering about it, even though it isn't actually a real world issue. Remember, big numbers sell. 3 channels is better than 2. Then again, so is 4, so they'd have to throw that benchmark up there anyway. Might as well just go with 2x2GB in that case. (or 2x1GB, after all, this is the tower Mac we're talking about here).

If you think that wouldn't be an issue, I'll point you to those "DDR3 has more bandwidth than DDR2 but is slower (wut?) since it has CL7 instead of CL5!" people.

Umbongo

Jan 16, 2009, 05:47 PM

All that really gives you though is a "memory throughput" benchmark you could use to paper over the clock drop. You'll still have people wondering about it, even though it isn't actually a real world issue. Remember, big numbers sell. 3 channels is better than 2. Then again, so is 4, so they'd have to throw that benchmark up there anyway. Might as well just go with 2x2GB in that case. (or 2x1GB, after all, this is the tower Mac we're talking about here).

If you think that wouldn't be an issue, I'll point you to those "DDR3 has more bandwidth than DDR2 but is slower (wut?) since it has CL7 instead of CL5!" people.

I think whether they go with 3x1GB or 2x2GB there will be confusion and complaints :D The only way to stop it would be to offer 6GB base which won't happen :apple:.

m1stake

Jan 16, 2009, 05:50 PM

Still cheap enough, 6GB is still a day one purchase.

nanofrog

Jan 16, 2009, 05:54 PM

I think whether they go with 3x1GB or 2x2GB there will be confusion and complaints :D The only way to stop it would be to offer 6GB base which won't happen :apple:.
We'll be dust first. :D
Still cheap enough, 6GB is still a day one purchase.
As in 3GB per CPU? So little? :D :p

Tallest Skil

Jan 16, 2009, 05:54 PM

Another thing about RAM: Tylersburg supports 12 DIMM slots, so without the gigantic heat sinks of the FB-DIMMs to worry about, will we just see new risers with 6 DIMM slots per riser now?

I just want to take the underline off of the 12 as number of DIMMs. :p

Umbongo

Jan 16, 2009, 05:58 PM

Apple may still go for risers if it works for their cooling design. They may even go for heatsinks still. There are dual socket boards with 12 and 18 DIMM slots that have already been shown, but I think we will see 12.

Basically although it doesn't appear that risers and heatsinks will be needed don't be suprised if Apple continue with them.

J the Ninja

Jan 16, 2009, 06:00 PM

dmw007

Jan 16, 2009, 06:02 PM

Excellent post/thread Tallest Skil! :)

J the Ninja

Jan 16, 2009, 06:03 PM

Tallest Skil

Jan 16, 2009, 06:05 PM

Excellent post/thread Tallest Skil! :)

Thank you very much. :cool:

As my first post states, I've been updating little things as we've gone along.

I've added questions about Mini DisplayPort on the GPUs, hardware RAID, and more, so...

It's kind of hard to reread through everything, though... anyone have any ideas as to an elegant solution for me to bring new points to attention while keeping to the organization of the post in general?

rylin

Jan 16, 2009, 06:11 PM

It's kind of hard to reread through everything, though... anyone have any ideas as to an elegant solution for me to bring new points to attention while keeping to the organization of the post in general?

Colour.
Standard red for the freshest information, a brighter red or orange for last update, normal text colour for "old" info.

Bonus points for putting an explanation of when each colour was updated last.

m1stake

Jan 16, 2009, 06:19 PM

As in 3GB per CPU? So little? :D :p

Is that a challenge, son? :D

How the heck does the whole on-die memory controller thing work with more than one CPU anyway? Does each CPU take half the RAM? Wouldn't that hurt performance unless the load was distributed equally across both sockets? Or does only one CPU directly address memory? Or what?

Excellent question, but I would expect each CPU to grab memory as needed. Designating half the memory for each CPU isn't a very smart or efficient way of doing things.

TheStrudel

Jan 16, 2009, 06:29 PM

Good thread. I'm kind of hoping that other people will read this before continuing to post about how i7 is going to be in the next mac pro.

My only question, since a lot of that has been discussed before, is why those GPUs? Do you have anything to back that up, or is that just a guess? Is there a particular reason why we're more likely to see those as opposed to similar, yet different graphics cards offered by ATI and Nvidia? And are any of those cards likely to be backward compatible with Penryn Mac Pros? I can't imagine why they wouldn't be, but it's worth asking. For my part, I think it'd be worthwhile to upgrade to an ATI GPU. These slower Nvidia drivers irritate me...

Umbongo

Jan 16, 2009, 06:30 PM

How the heck does the whole on-die memory controller thing work with more than one CPU anyway? Does each CPU take half the RAM? Wouldn't that hurt performance unless the load was distributed equally across both sockets? Or does only one CPU directly address memory? Or what?

Each processor has a memory branch connected to its integrated memory controller. Each branch has 3 channels, each channel supporting x DIMMs (x will be 2 on a 12 memory slot Mac Pro). The processors can communicate with each other's branches via the QuickPath interconnect by which they are linked using a NUMA architecture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Uniform_Memory_Access).

http://i40.tinypic.com/ek023c.png

barkmonster

Jan 16, 2009, 06:31 PM

J the Ninja

Jan 16, 2009, 06:36 PM

I wonder if apple will get a deal with intel for the X-25 SSDs at the same time as releasing the new mac pros and offer them as standard with BTO options to replace it with a 7,200RPM drive. The same way they did years ago with superdrives?

I've always partitioned my system drive to 1/5 "Macintosh HD", 4/5 "Storage".

A mac pro with an 80Gb X-25 in bay 1 and the current 320Gb 7,200rpm drive in bay 2 would SCREAM!

Yes, let's add $500 to a machine that already costs $3k for the base config.

If we did, would you mind if we also sold a three-thousand dollar computer that only came with 80GB of built-in storage?

Tallest Skil

Jan 16, 2009, 06:39 PM

My only question, since a lot of that has been discussed before, is why those GPUs? Do you have anything to back that up, or is that just a guess? Is there a particular reason why we're more likely to see those as opposed to similar, yet different graphics cards offered by ATI and Nvidia? And are any of those cards likely to be backward compatible with Penryn Mac Pros? I can't imagine why they wouldn't be, but it's worth asking. For my part, I think it'd be worthwhile to upgrade to an ATI GPU. These slower Nvidia drivers irritate me...

The only GPU of my creation was the Quadro FX 5800. The rest were suggested by Umbongo, and I assume he's operating on the assumption of similar power draw to the current offering.

This is the part of the show where he comes in and backs up my assumption of his assumption. :D

Umbongo

Jan 16, 2009, 06:45 PM

The only GPU of my creation was the Quadro FX 5800. The rest were suggested by Umbongo, and I assume he's operating on the assumption of similar power draw to the current offering.

This is the part of the show where he comes in and backs up my assumption of his assumption. :D

You're correct.

As the lines have progressed the 8800GT has basically been replaced by the GTX260 and the 2600XT by the 9600GT or 4650. If there is to be a low end Nvidia based on the GT200 comming before the new Mac Pros maybe we will see that, same with a 5 series Radeon. I guess I would be suprised if Apple went all Nvidia, so maybe a 4850 or 4870 instead of the GTX 260. Apple could of course also go for whatever replaces the GTX260 next, GTX265?

I doubt their strategy will change so it's likely to be a "low end mid range card" and a "high end, but not the best" and then a high end workstation card.

Eidorian

Jan 16, 2009, 06:48 PM

Hopefully RAM prices will be lower but the fact that Intel is still creating a DDR3 market isn't helping. Moving away from fully buffered DIMMs does though.

I'm going to say 4670 at least in the Mac Pro.

Umbongo

Jan 16, 2009, 06:52 PM

I actually meant the 4670, not the 4650. Doh! It has really good power consumption and decent performance. Out performed by the 9600GT if I remember right though.

m1stake

Jan 16, 2009, 07:31 PM

As the lines have progressed the 8800GT has basically been replaced by the GTX260 and the 2600XT by the 9600GT or 4650. If there is to be a low end Nvidia based on the GT200 comming before the new Mac Pros maybe we will see that, same with a 5 series Radeon. I guess I would be suprised if Apple went all Nvidia, so maybe a 4850 or 4870 instead of the GTX 260. Apple could of course also go for whatever replaces the GTX260 next, GTX265?

The next cards aren't coming until Q4 with DX11. What's out now is what we're getting, which definitely isn't a bad thing :p As far as drivers, I'll probably go with the Nvidia card - ATI's linux drivers are a joke, and more often; nonexistent.

ButtUglyJeff

Jan 16, 2009, 07:57 PM

nanofrog

Jan 16, 2009, 08:01 PM

<snip> What's out now is what we're getting, which definitely isn't a bad thing :p As far as drivers, I'll probably go with the Nvidia card - ATI's linux drivers are a joke, and more often; nonexistent.
This is my suspicion as well. ;)

I've seen/heard some rumblings that Snow Leopard will expand on ATI driver support. So perhaps there'll be an option or two more than what's been available. Especially as that's the card I'd like to use. :p

m1stake

Jan 16, 2009, 08:03 PM

Hopefully I'll be able to put in my AGP MX2 and sell the card that comes with it.

Tallest Skil

Jan 16, 2009, 08:04 PM

New bit: What is the situation on 3.5" SSDs? Once we see the offering for the iMac refresh, we'll know what is going in the Nehalem Mac Pro, but what kind of market are we looking at in terms of capacity in 3.5" SSDs?

Also, what are the new capacities on the SAS drive front, if any? I only see a 300GB SAS on Newegg; the rest are smaller.

Hopefully I'll be able to put in my AGP MX2 and sell the card that comes with it.

A joke? There won't be any AGP ports...

And what about 10 gigabit Ethernet? What would that mean for the fiber channel card that Apple sells? What protocol does that use?

m1stake

Jan 16, 2009, 08:09 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geforce2_MX

And after I do that, I was thinking of jumping off of something tall. :rolleyes:

nanofrog

Jan 16, 2009, 08:11 PM

I wonder if we'll see 3 sets of risers instead of 2? I'm assuming we'll have to organize our RAM purchases in groups of three from here forward, with Gainestown. And having 3 risers would make it easier for me to organize chip sets.
No, not 3 risers. :)

2 processors, one riser each.
Just look at the diagram posted by Umbongo. ;)
If that's the case, will this force a new case design? I'm hoping no. I like the look as is.
It will require some internal redesign to fit the new boards, etc. Externally, no way to know for sure, but it could, given the length of time Apple's kept the current exterior.

ButtUglyJeff

Jan 16, 2009, 08:25 PM

No, not 3 risers. :)

2 processors, one riser each.
Just look at the diagram posted by Umbongo. ;)

If RAM optimization is best in 3's, then how would you organize chips on the risers, if there will only be 2 of them?

Horst

Jan 16, 2009, 08:43 PM

All nice and dandy, but what are the gains for someone who's actually going to work with the future Mac Pro ?

RAM silly expensive as of now, and there is no substitute for size when it comes to RAM yet, crunch the numbers as much as you wish.

Highspeed external storage and other connections : FW 400 remains to be the most affordable, most common solution; USB sucks, no improvement exists, eSATA is a can of worms, NAS a joke, adapters and/or FW400-800 cables will cost a serious users several hundreds, if they work at all for that timid video camera or digital back of yours.

Again, there is not one single substitute in sight, but Apple will move on anyways.

HDD performance will remain to be a bottleneck for years to come , new graphic cards sound better on paper, but might still lack proper drivers, and chances are no affordable GPU for 3D apps will be offered by Apple, as usual.

If it works for that silly, bloated thing called Aperture, I guess that's good enough for iJobs , RIP .

Oh, and Intel is loosing it big time, really hurting right now. Not a good time to invest in new hardware, if I may say so.
R&D is likely to suffer first, along with quality control .

Tallest Skil

Jan 16, 2009, 08:49 PM

All nice and dandy, but what are the gains for someone who's actually going to work with the future Mac Pro ?

Would anyone care to point him to the latest Gainestown benchmarks and then tell him that Snow Leopard should double the % improvement over Penryn that already exists?

J the Ninja

Jan 16, 2009, 08:52 PM

If RAM optimization is best in 3's, then how would you organize chips on the risers, if there will only be 2 of them?

2 riser's, six slots per riser, as discussed on the previous page.

As for SAS, I popped over to Seagate's site, and it seems they carry 15,000rpm SAS drives in the 450 and 600GB flavors, among others.

All nice and dandy, but what are the gains for someone who's actually going to work with the future Mac Pro ?

RAM silly expensive as of now, and there is no substitute for size when it comes to RAM yet, crunch the numbers as much as you wish.

Highspeed external storage and other connections : FW 400 remains to be the most affordable, most common solution; USB sucks, no improvement exists, eSATA is a can of worms, NAS a joke, adapters and/or FW400-800 cables will cost a serious users several hundreds, if they work at all for that timid video camera or digital back of yours.

Again, there is not one single substitute in sight, but Apple will move on anyways.

HDD performance will remain to be a bottleneck for years to come , new graphic cards sound better on paper, but might still lack proper drivers, and chances are no affordable GPU for 3D apps will be offered by Apple, as usual.

If it works for that silly, bloated thing called Aperture, I guess that's good enough for iJobs , RIP .

Oh, and Intel is loosing it big time, really hurting right now. Not a good time to invest in new hardware, if I may say so.
R&D is likely to suffer first, along with quality control .

Intel is in fine shape. The economy may suck, but they make a product everyone needs, and they make the best ones around for the time being. HDD's don't bottleneck everything. A lot of things yes, but to say they drag the system down to the point where better CPUs and GPUs are useless is simply idiotic and not true.

And FW400-800 cables costing "serious users" "hundreds"? Uh.....Monoprice sells the things for about $5 a whack, unless you need 4 dozen, they won't cost hundreds. And if you need that many, doesn't that imply you have some 15-30 computers?

Horst

Jan 16, 2009, 09:09 PM

Would anyone care to point him to the latest Gainestown benchmarks and then tell him that Snow Leopard should double the % improvement over Penryn that already exists?

Would anyone point him to my posting and have him reply accordingly, for a change ?

And while anyone is at it, can you advice him there are no benchmarks about Gainestown in combination with Leopard, much less Snow Leopard ?
Oh, and there is no real-world Nehalem benchmark either .

Tallest Skil

Jan 16, 2009, 09:11 PM

Would anyone point him to my posting and have him reply accordingly, for a change ?

And while anyone is at it, can you advice him there are no benchmarks about Gainestown in combination with Leopard, much less Snow Leopard ?
Oh, and there is no real-world Nehalem benchmark either .

Everything else you said I have taken care of.

Yes, there are no OS X Gainestown benchmarks yet, but we can extrapolate from the Windows benchmarks.

Define real-world benchmark, because there was a demonstration of Gainestown in Mayish of last year.

m1stake

Jan 16, 2009, 09:29 PM

Real world benchmark is this close to being an oxymoron.

Horst

Jan 16, 2009, 09:30 PM

2 riser's, six slots per riser, as discussed on the previous page.

As for SAS, I popped over to Seagate's site, and it seems they carry 15,000rpm SAS drives in the 450 and 600GB flavors, among others.

Intel is in fine shape. The economy may suck, but they make a product everyone needs, and they make the best ones around for the time being.

The latter might be true, but you really should read the news .

HDD's don't bottleneck everything. A lot of things yes, but to say they drag the system down to the point where better CPUs and GPUs are useless is simply idiotic and not true.

Alright, I'm an idiot then; maybe you can teach me about the benefits of improved CPUs and GPUs for pro apps.
If it's less than 50% plus, don't bother.

And FW400-800 cables costing "serious users" "hundreds"? Uh.....Monoprice sells the things for about $5 a whack, unless you need 4 dozen, they won't cost hundreds. And if you need that many, doesn't that imply you have some 15-30 computers?

I don't think I have ever heard of Monoprice, is that US based or something ?
Also, I'm using some equipment with dual 4.5m FW cables and repeaters, I kind of don't like the idea of going lowest bidder for that.

But according to you, I can get a 5$ 15" cable and it will work just fine ?

Man, I have to tell the dudes in that photography forum they are just being anal, and could have saved a bundle had they just ignored them app and system crashes and told the client all was well.

Now I really feel idiotic .

Tallest Skil

Jan 16, 2009, 09:39 PM

But according to you, I can get a 5$ 15" cable and it will work just fine ?

Man, I have to tell the dudes in that photography forum they are just being anal, and could have saved a bundle had they just ignored them app and system crashes and told the client all was well.

Now I really feel idiotic .

Please do not turn my thread into an insult-fest. Monoprice is a legitimate site with cheap, reliable cables.

There are $8,000+ Pear audio cables, and then there are wire coat hangers. Guess what? They sound the same. Buying from somewhere like Monoprice saves people a lot of money over buying from, say, Wal-Mart. You can get a 3 foot HDMI cable at Wal-Mart for $25, but can get a 30 foot cable of the same quality from Monoprice for the same amount of money.

jjahshik32

Jan 16, 2009, 09:44 PM

Please do not turn my thread into an insult-fest. Monoprice is a legitimate site with cheap, reliable cables.

There are $8,000+ Pear audio cables, and then there are wire coat hangers. Guess what? They sound the same. Buying from somewhere like Monoprice saves people a lot of money over buying from, say, Wal-Mart. You can get a 3 foot HDMI cable at Wal-Mart for $25, but can get a 30 foot cable of the same quality from Monoprice for the same amount of money.

Monoprice is the bomb. Any cable whether it is a $9.99 hdmi cable or a $99.99 monster cable are exactly the same thing.

Once a cheap cable works it just works the same way as an expensive cable. Only difference is if the cable works or it just doesnt, no quality differences.

People buy monster cables, seriously gets ripped off.

Horst

Jan 16, 2009, 09:56 PM

Everything else you said I have taken care of.

Yes, there are no OS X Gainestown benchmarks yet, but we can extrapolate from the Windows benchmarks.

Define real-world benchmark, because there was a demonstration of Gainestown in Mayish of last year.

Oh, there was a demonstration sometime last year, I guess I stand corrected, eh ? ;)

Now don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a quantum leap in Mac Pro performance, compatibilty notwithstanding - a matter you keep ignoring, btw..

However, I dont see it happen anytime soon.

Realworld benchmarks might be : process 200x 100MB image raw files to 16 bit 200mb files, open all and convert to jpeg, create contact sheets.

Render times in Cinema 4D , HDRI lighting/ GI etc. , 16 bit , for 11x14 print size at 360 DPI .
Enable decent OpenGL previews in C4D w/o lag, and w/o spendig 1-2k on the GPU.

TheStrudel

Jan 16, 2009, 11:29 PM

Barefeats and other sites have shown some rather amazing tests where they put some intel SSDs, among other things into a RAID0 array and thereby achieved blinding speed increases on a Mac Pro. Gainestown will show some improvements, but I'll be extremely surprised if they amount to 20% of the gains you'll experience from putting everything on, say, 4 of the top-notch intel SSDs in two RAID0 arrays.

Given what holds my system up - and it is always the hard drives - I might go so far as to say that Snow Leopard, if it is all it claims, may be more of a speed boost than Nehalem. After all, developers are not yet programming for tasks to be shared by 8 cores routinely. Maybe they're up to 2. But not yet routinely 4.

Cables: If the cable in question is digital, provided it's intact, it always works. Cable quality matters if you're using ludicrously long cables or going analog, like old analog component video connections, sure, but if it's digital, it just works. Regardless of how much one paid for the cable in question. Gold plating isn't going to show a measurable performance gain over copper or silver in the connections.

This is all according to what I've read from several independent sources, and I'm always interested in being proven wrong. Anybody read or tested otherwise?

m1stake

Jan 17, 2009, 12:09 AM

I still don't buy into 100% of the SL hype. There is only so much that benefits from being multithreaded.

RobLS

Jan 17, 2009, 12:15 AM

Um update to the 'realworld' nehelam testing. There IS realworld nehelam tests, as its being sold now. Just no gainestown bench, since it is not out yet.

barkmonster

Jan 17, 2009, 03:58 AM

Yes, let's add $500 to a machine that already costs $3k for the base config.

If we did, would you mind if we also sold a three-thousand dollar computer that only came with 80GB of built-in storage?

I was meaning the same way the BASE model currently has dual 2.8Ghz CPUs as standard, you'd just swap it for a 7,200rpm model as a BTO option the same as you might drop it down to 1 CPU to knock off $500 if need be or when the superdrives were introduced and you could knock it down to a CD/RW if you wanted to.

This would remove any additional cost and as the casing, hard drives, optical drives and other components save the Motherboard, RAM and CPU have come down in price quite a lot over the past few years compared with apple's prices as BTO options. I imagine apple will aim for a price similar if not exactly the same as the current range and still offer more than simply a new range of CPUs.

I was thinking of "buying power" combined with a deal Apple could make with intel at the same time, a system running an intel CPU, intel SSD and Apple motherboard would make the most expensive component apart from the RAM and Graphics Card come from 1 company or in-house and I'm sure if Apple order 100,000 CPUs for instance, they'd get a discount if they ordered 10,000 SSDs at the same time.

They'd be ordering a lot more than that I imagine seeing as they'd be perfect as BTO options in laptops too.

A small change to the iMac to allow a second, 2.5" SATA drive to be fitted internally and then the whole mac range could have SSDs as a BTO option and apple could buy them for peanuts (so to speak).

sorry if I sounded naive :confused:

rylin

Jan 17, 2009, 04:08 AM

After all, developers are not yet programming for tasks to be shared by 8 cores routinely. Maybe they're up to 2. But not yet routinely 4.

FYI:
Developers don't really write for specific cores.
The OS handles assigning threads to cores.

If you write a massively parallel renderer with X threads, it'll instantiate those threads on 1 - X cores.

Coding for two cores is pretty much the same as coding for 8 cores.

So long as the OS manages to spread things out, everything's nice and dandy.

rylin

Jan 17, 2009, 04:28 AM

Highspeed external storage and other connections : FW 400 remains to be the most affordable, most common solution; USB sucks, no improvement exists, eSATA is a can of worms, NAS a joke, adapters and/or FW400-800 cables will cost a serious users several hundreds, if they work at all for that timid video camera or digital back of yours.

ATA over Ethernet could be an option.
Build a simple Linux, OpenSolaris or FreeBSD machine with lots and lots of disk.
Turn aforementioned disks into a nice big ZFS volume on top of RAID-Z or RAID-10 and export the volume*.

Create a HFS+ partition on your newly mounted remote disk and enjoy.
You should easily be able to saturate a gigabit link, so you might want to consider 10gbps cards for the host and your Mac Pro.

* I'm not sure if you gain ZFS' benefits by exporting a ZFS volume, so you might want to just export each block device and implement the ZFS volume on top of that on your Mac Pro. Latency might be a bit increased, but all in all your little remote storage controller has 1+GHz of horsepower and 1+GB of RAM ;)

Edit: Oh and, if you're not interested in hacking it together yourself, you could buy a case from coraid themselves.
A 24-disk host will cost you $5k -- that's up to 48TB of storage at > 200MB/sec (several bonded gigabit controllers).
4-disk host = $2k, 15 = $4k.
If you want 10gbps controllers in their appliance it costs a bit more, but still very doable, and in return you get > 500MB/sec throughput.

What's your definition of high speed? ;)

teleromeo

Jan 17, 2009, 04:47 AM

Very interesting thread. Please keep it updated. Also, to avoid other people from making other similar threads it would be a good idea to make it a sticky or to add a link to it in the buyers guide.

Personally, I hope that Apple does not wait until snow leopard is ready and introduces the new model as soon as possible. I really need a pro computer, I can wait for a few months but on the other hands the new Macbook Pro is very tempting.

amoergosum

Jan 17, 2009, 05:58 AM

Dragonforce

Jan 17, 2009, 06:02 AM

In the worst case (and it usually IS the worst case) around 6 more months ...

nanofrog

Jan 17, 2009, 12:00 PM

If RAM optimization is best in 3's, then how would you organize chips on the risers, if there will only be 2 of them?
Here's how it works:

Each riser has 6 slots. Those slots are in pairs. So you have 2 slots per channel. Possibly using alternating colors to distinguish the primary and secondary slots for each channel. (Look to some of the Core i7 boards available now).
All nice and dandy, but what are the gains for someone who's actually going to work with the future Mac Pro ?
If you look at the current Core i7 and how it compares to the Penryn parts, the evidence is clear.

In the case of a server/workstation, the gains should be more evident, given the level of memory access that these systems are designed for. Whether it's used in this fashion, only an individual user can answer.
RAM silly expensive as of now, and there is no substitute for size when it comes to RAM yet, crunch the numbers as much as you wish.
It's the nature of server memory. If additional memory is needed, you'd have to buy more. No different from the current model, as most members have upgraded through 3rd party sources.

However, the costs aren't as bad as the FB-DIMM when it first came out. So though it's not cheap, it will be a little less expensive this time around. ;)
HDD performance will remain to be a bottleneck for years to come , new graphic cards sound better on paper, but might still lack proper drivers, and chances are no affordable GPU for 3D apps will be offered by Apple, as usual.
HDD's are a bottleneck, and have been with single drive solutions. But it's the result of a compromise, as the consumer desktop market is aimed at being cheap.

f you're running a workstation/server, you have a high speed, professional option. RAID. Not cheap, as speed never is, but people/companies pay for it if they actually need it.

Drivers and firmware are always a problem. Nothing is developed to a point it will absolutely work with anything, with absolutely no problems what so ever. It's just a sad truth of computer technology, and it seems to be getting worse IMO. Products are being released too prematurely. :(
Oh, and Intel is loosing it big time, really hurting right now. Not a good time to invest in new hardware, if I may say so.
R&D is likely to suffer first, along with quality control .
From my POV, it already is. Low margins and greed have a negative effect on R&D. No investments are being made while a current technology is milked for every cent possible. Then that company finds itself in deep **** with nothing to sell.

QC has been dropping for awhile. Failure rates have gotten higher than they should ever be. Seagate's 1TB & 1.5TB drives are a perfect example. Newegg's customer review sections are another hint. ;) Do the math on DOA products as a minimum.

It's noticeable in other products as well, just look around.
I still don't buy into 100% of the SL hype. There is only so much that benefits from being multithreaded.
It will only be able to do so much, until apps developers manage to write code that can take advantage of the multi threading capabilities. The software tools aren't common/standardized yet, and still being developed last I checked.

Even then, some programs may not scale well. Particularly the simple ones.

iMacmatician

Jan 17, 2009, 01:04 PM

LOL, how did I miss this thread for so long?

The Nehalem Mac Pro will start at around $2,999*.The past two (three if counting the 2007 one) Mac Pros have had BTO options that lower the price quite a bit (HD and/or CPU). I'm wondering if that'll happen with this one too. If the base model has 2.8 GHz and 3-channel RAM, maybe there could be 2.67 GHz and/or 2-channel RAM options to lower the price. If the HDD increases, then we may see the 320 GB remain as a cheaper option.

And about the RAM, is it true that in 2-channel mode the maximum speed that can be used is 1600 MHz, while in 3-channel mode the maximum speed is 1333 MHz?

The three graphics options will be: GeForce 9600GT or Radeon 4670, GTX 260, and the nVidia Quadro FX 4800 or 5800I'm assuming there will be options for multiple 9600/4670 GPUs too.

500GB HDD standardI was thinking 400 GB until I saw the $50 BTO option of the 500 GB in the Apple Store.

Things we won't see:
USB 3.0 (2010, people)
WiMax (just making sure you're paying attention)Blu-ray.

(Point to be clarified upon: what are we hearing now in terms of date of production?)Someone in the forums said by the end of March or something (it was either production or release, I think).

Television manufacturers are starting to make half-Super Hi-Vision TVs (4096x2160) on the highest-end already.Isn't it 3840x2160, because 3840 is half of 7680? And that reminds me, where's the 40" (or whatever) 3840x2400 Cinema Display? It better be coming with the Nehalem Mac Pro.

Release date: Based on the pushing back of production dates and the build time required thereafter, late spring or WWDC 2009 are good dates for release.The week before WWDC 2009 is another date to look for, if Apple has "bigger" stuff at WWDC, given that Apple's released products the week before major keynotes.

$2,999: Apple should be getting a better price than that of the 1,000 lot price, because they'll be ordering more. However, Apple is a for-profit company. This price is based on the assumption that Apple's profit margins push the per-consumer price of the chips back to their 1,000 lot price, and then adding the cost of the other components and case on top of the cheapest potential Gainestown chip.I'm assuming that Apple did the same thing with the Harpertowns, so per-consumer Harpertown prices would be similar to their 1000-lot price. So then we can just use the 1000-lot prices to estimate Mac Pro price increases (since price increases/decreases are relative).

Umbongo

Jan 17, 2009, 01:05 PM

Some things on memory on the Tylersburg DP/Gainestown platform:

It will surely be some form of DDR3 PC3-10600 (1333MHz) memory. While the platform may support both ECC and non-ECC and Registered and Unbuffered memory I expect Apple to only reccomend and support ECC only. It may be the same case for Registered memory too.

If Registered and Unbuffered are both supported then I'd reccomend anyone who needs memory performance or large capacity to wait for extensive benchmarking to be done on both before they buy. Apple will probably only offer ECC Registered, but I'd hope they don't force it via firmware despite the number of threads we will get on Registered vs. Unbuffered. From my understanding users can benefit from both types depending on what they plan on doing, and not just on price.

There will be 1GB, 2GB and 4GB DIMMs available. I'd expect these to be the ones on offer from Apple and officially supported. 8GB DIMMs should also be out. It has been suggested prices won't be over extortionate when compared to similar capacity made up in smaller DIMMs, but I doubt that will be the case.

16GB DIMMs look like they will also be available but there appear to be at least two technologies in place to bring it in to play (same for 8GB). Hynix are using MetaRAM's (http://www.metaram.com/) technology to put more 1Gb chips on a DIMM (see picture). The last time they were demoed they were only runnning at 1066MHz, but they say they can improve it to 1333Mhz. They also say 32GB DIMMs could come with 2Gb chips.

Micron appear to have 2Gb chips comming and so should have 16GB 1333MHz DIMMs available using them. They already have 8GB DIMMs using 1Gb chips, so it seems feasible they can do it without over-sized DIMMs. There was suggestion that Micron and Samsung could adopt the MetaRAM technology and Intel are supporting them.

16GB DIMM:
http://i41.tinypic.com/k3kwk.jpg

Tallest Skil

Jan 17, 2009, 01:13 PM

LOL, how did I miss this thread for so long?

Yeah, how DID you?! :p:D

If the base model has 2.8 GHz and 3-channel RAM, maybe there could be 2.67 GHz and/or 2-channel RAM options to lower the price. If the HDD increases, then we may see the 320 GB remain as a cheaper option.

So... you're saying all four CPUs, with the 8-core 2.66 being equivalent to the 4-core option now?

And about the RAM, is it true that in 2-channel mode the maximum speed that can be used is 1600 MHz, while in 3-channel mode the maximum speed is 1333 MHz?

*shrug* :confused::p

I'm assuming there will be options for multiple 9600/4670 GPUs too.

Adding that, thanks.

Blu-ray.

I thought by reading my Blu-ray section you'd get that. I'd better put it in the list...

Isn't it 3840x2160, because 3840 is half of 7680? And that reminds me, where's the 40" (or whatever) 3840x2400 Cinema Display? It better be coming with the Nehalem Mac Pro.

You'd think so, but no, it isn't. Someone needs to tell those TV manufacturers that they're building them wrong. I'm serious; they're doing the resolution I stated. Oh, but I also said "half-Super Hi-Vision", didn't I... Yeah, it's not "half", but there's no name for it and that's what they're doing, so...

And a 40" LED ACD would be, what, $3,000?

The week before WWDC 2009 is another date to look for, if Apple has "bigger" stuff at WWDC, given that Apple's released products the week before major keynotes.

Thought about it, given the last "Tuesday before" Mac Pro release, but that was because MacWorld was a consumer conference (yes, they did the PowerMac G5 then...), and they released the first one AT WWDC, remember?

iMacmatician

Jan 17, 2009, 01:40 PM

So... you're saying all four CPUs, with the 8-core 2.66 being equivalent to the 4-core option now?Basically.

I think the first Mac Pro had 2.67 GHz as base and 2.0 GHz as a cheaper BTO.

I thought by reading my Blu-ray section you'd get that. I'd better put it in the list...I did. I was pointing out that it should be in the list as well.

You'd think so, but no, it isn't. Someone needs to tell those TV manufacturers that they're building them wrong. I'm serious; they're doing the resolution I stated. Oh, but I also said "half-Super Hi-Vision", didn't I... Yeah, it's not "half", but there's no name for it and that's what they're doing, so...That is just weird. :confused: And the aspect ratio is 256:135 (1.896:1). :confused:

Thought about it, given the last "Tuesday before" Mac Pro release, but that was because MacWorld was a consumer conference (yes, they did the PowerMac G5 then...), and they released the first one AT WWDC, remember?They did release the Santa Rosa MacBook Pro the week before WWDC 2007, although it's debatable whether or not the MacBook Pro is as "pro" as the Mac Pro. And there's a good possibility that most of WWDC 2009 will be iPhone-related anyway.

Does anybody think that Apple will use a 9800 GPU instead of the GTX 260?

Tallest Skil

Jan 17, 2009, 01:43 PM

I think the first Mac Pro had 2.67 GHz as base and 2.0 GHz as cheaper BTO.

Yeah, but that was still only three clocks. They've only ever had three clock speeds at once. Do you think they would change, or can the 2.8 be run with only one processor? Would it be cheaper/better to do a 4-core 2.8 or an 8-core 2.66?

iMacmatician

Jan 17, 2009, 01:57 PM

Yeah, but that was still only three clocks. They've only ever had three clock speeds at once. That's true. And 2.93 GHz as the base model or a 400 MHz gap between the 2.8 GHz and the 3.2 GHz doesn't make much sense. Apple could cut corners elsewhere, but that isn't the best thing either.

Do you think they would change, or can the 2.8 be run with only one processor? Would it be cheaper/better to do a 4-core 2.8 or an 8-core 2.66?We might consider that the Early 2008 Mac Pro had 4 speed grades (as opposed to clock speeds), one more than the previous Mac Pro. Apple would then keep the 4 grades and use the 4 CPUs. I don't know if only one Gainestown can be put in the motherboard, although if it is, then Apple has an easy way to give a -$1000 or so BTO option (as opposed to -$400 or so by using 2x 2.66). Might alleviate some of the price concerns. :p

Tallest Skil

Jan 17, 2009, 02:05 PM

Does anybody think that Apple will use a 9800 GPU instead of the GTX 260?

Depends. What's the power draw?

iMacmatician

Jan 17, 2009, 02:10 PM

Depends. What's the power draw?9800 GTX is 140 W, 9800 GTX+ is 145 W, and 9800 GX2 is 197 W.

Tallest Skil

Jan 17, 2009, 02:13 PM

9800 GTX is 140 W, 9800 GTX+ is 145 W, and 9800 GX2 is 197 W.

And the GTX 260 is 182... Interesting...

diamond.g

Jan 17, 2009, 04:19 PM

Fiber Channel is typically used to connect to SANs. So I am not sure if that is really all that useful for a Mac Pro. It has the capability of doing 10Gbps much like 10 Gig E.

Has SIG updated the PCIe spec to allow for more than 32 PCIe lanes?

Tallest Skil

Jan 17, 2009, 04:24 PM

Fiber Channel is typically used to connect to SANs. So I am not sure if that is really all that useful for a Mac Pro. It has the capability of doing 10Gbps much like 10 Gig E.

It may not be useful, but they offer one now. I'm just curious about the speed provided by the current one, so that I can judge if they'll think that putting 10G Ethernet in the Mac Pro is justified or if they'll just say, "Oh, they can buy our fiber card for that."

PCIe in Tylersburg is up to 36 lanes per I/O board, and there are two I/O boards. I cover this in my first post.

diamond.g

Jan 17, 2009, 04:32 PM

Umbongo

Jan 17, 2009, 04:35 PM

rylin

Jan 17, 2009, 04:39 PM

It may not be useful, but they offer one now. I'm just curious about the speed provided by the current one, so that I can judge if they'll think that putting 10G Ethernet in the Mac Pro is justified or if they'll just say, "Oh, they can buy our fiber card for that."

PCIe in Tylersburg is up to 36 lanes per I/O board, and there are two I/O boards. I cover this in my first post.

The problem with 10Gbps SAN is that it tends to cost quite a bit.
Depending on needs, there are options available that are much more cost effective such as ATA over Ethernet (you could build a 10Gbps local storage for less than $1k + the cost of SATA disks).

IMO, 10Gbps ethernet should be a BTO option for an updated Mac Pro.
For most uses, a couple of gigabit links will do just fine, keeping in mind that a gigabit is roughly 100MB/sec actual throughput (keeping in mind that 10-20% is typically TCP/IP overhead).

Saturating a gigabit pipe is relatively easy.
A 10Gbps pipe? Well, with a Enterpricey SAN, not a problem.
With ATA-over-Ethernet? Not much of a problem there either.

It has its uses, but the audience is still quite small for it.

J the Ninja

Jan 17, 2009, 05:17 PM

Ok....the case. I have some ideas....

1: Drop the PSU down to the bottom. The top-mount is a relic from the days when cases didn't have dedicated exhaust fans. It now only serves to pump out heat near the CPUs, and bring the machine's center of gravity way higher than it needs to be. Not that kicking a tower over is that big of a deal anyway, but putting the PSU in the bottom changes tipping it over from "maybe, if it got ran into by someone..." to "You'd have to be trying on purpose"

2. Move the CPU tunnel up to the middle. Then, the cards go up top, where you can install some top fans to add airflow to those. Since you no longer need a fan in front of the cards, you can put the optical drives there, then shuffle the HDDs to bottom, where there'd be room for 6-8 of them.

"It's timeless..." yes, but this is Apple. It wouldn't be the first time they re-did a Mac's chassis for just for the sake of a new look. A lot of people said the old MBP/PBG4 case was timeless and couldn't be topped/shouldn't be replaced.

3. It needs to be bigger. If they pulled it out to about 24" deep, there would be a room for at least one more HDD without even changing anything else. The current machine is 20"x19"x8". That is big for the family desktop, but what's claimed to have "tons of room to upgrade" and be "fastest ever"....IMO 24"x24"x10" is better for a "tower of power.

Ex:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811133056

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119138

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119103

4: Too many hard angles, too much silver. It's starting to not look like it belongs with the other Macs. You can tell there's been some changes to it's siblings that it hasn't had yet. The "new Mac look" is rounded corners, black accents, tapered edges, etc.

5: Everyone else is doing it! Well, more seriously, the Macbook (iBook), MacBook Pro (Powerbook) and iMac all went Intel keeping their PPC looks, but were later updated. Apple did this for all 5 machines to help show "It's the same Mac, just faster". Now that everyone was accepted the "Intel Mac" as being a "real Mac", they started freshening up the designs. The iMac went first, we saw black, aluminum shell, glass where applicable, and very, very few hard angles. A lot of curves. Then the MacBook Air came out, all tapered and with black keys. Then we got the unibody notebooks, more tapering, same black keys. The new ACD, same thing. The new Mini is probably going to look like a small, fat (closed) MacBook. That leaves just the Pro looking like the PPC version. It wouldn't fit.

I really have no ideas on what the exterior could look like, but those are my thoughts on that.

CTYankee

Jan 17, 2009, 05:44 PM

We have a $5000 grant sitting around waiting for one of these....

Tallest Skil

Jan 17, 2009, 06:10 PM

Ok....the case. I have some ideas....

5: The iMac went first, we saw black, aluminum shell, glass where applicable, and very, very few hard angles. A lot of curves. Then the MacBook Air came out, all tapered and with black keys. Then we got the unibody notebooks, more tapering, same black keys. The new ACD, same thing. The new Mini is probably going to look like a small, fat (closed) MacBook. That leaves just the Pro looking like the PPC version. It wouldn't fit.

I really have no ideas on what the exterior could look like, but those are my thoughts on that.

Fortunately, I do... ;) I was originally going to reject my idea for a newer design, but I'll throw out one hint right now:

Handles. Does the design still need them? Your response will be the determining factor in whether or not I keep up with this drawing or go with something else. So... will Apple keep the PowerMac G3 theme?

J the Ninja

Jan 17, 2009, 06:18 PM

Fortunately, I do... ;) I was originally going to reject my idea for a newer design, but I'll throw out one hint right now:

Handles. Does the design still need them? Your response will be the determining factor in whether or not I keep up with this drawing or go with something else. So... will Apple keep the PowerMac G3 theme?

Yes, they are a design trademark.

Also, maybe tilt them outward somewhat, like the G4? Honestly, what I had envisioned was basically an Aluminum silhouette of the graphite G4 case, but with some of those MBP-style laser cut holes on the top and front for vents (dust problem?), and some rounded off corners. (kinda uncreative, hence why I didn't post it)

nanofrog

Jan 17, 2009, 08:14 PM

Fortunately, I do... ;)Handles. Does the design still need them? Your response will be the determining factor in whether or not I keep up with this drawing or go with something else. So... will Apple keep the PowerMac G3 theme?
Dump the handles. It's a desktop. Stop trying to make it portable. :D :p
Yes, they are a design trademark.
It's Apple. Think different. :p :apple:

Dr.Pants

Jan 18, 2009, 12:46 AM

Drop the handles... Stop trying to make it portable.

I was thinking about getting the new Macpro, but if it doesn't have handles, how else will I work out in the morning?! Great for curls and a handicap running up and down the stairs. Already lost 12 lbs. on the G5. :p

Anyways, I think a portable desktop would be needed for some professions where a Macbook Pro would not be enough in terms of gHz/portability. And I (personally) like the handles. They seperate it out from every other desktop I've seen for sale.

jjahshik32

Jan 18, 2009, 12:55 AM

I was thinking about getting the new Macpro, but if it doesn't have handles, how else will I work out in the morning?! Great for curls and a handicap running up and down the stairs. Already lost 12 lbs. on the G5. :p

Anyways, I think a portable desktop would be needed for some professions where a Macbook Pro would not be enough in terms of gHz/portability. And I (personally) like the handles. They seperate it out from every other desktop I've seen for sale.

Wait.. no love handles?!?

JesterJJZ

Jan 18, 2009, 01:34 AM

Ex:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811133056

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119138

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119103

Ugly, but I'd love the new MacPro with so much space. And yes, handles are a must.

nanofrog

Jan 18, 2009, 02:07 AM

Wait.. no love handles?!?
I thought those were handy for a significant other to hang on to? :eek: :p
Ugly, but I'd love the new MacPro with so much space.
Take a look at Lian Li Full tower server cases (http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/product/product04.php?cl_index=1&sc_index=25&ss_index=61).

I have the PC-V2010A (Silver). All aluminum, well laid out, and plenty of room. :D

JesterJJZ

Jan 18, 2009, 03:01 AM

I thought those were handy for a significant other to hang on to? :eek: :p

Take a look at Lian Li Full tower server cases (http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/product/product04.php?cl_index=1&sc_index=25&ss_index=61).

I have the PC-V2010A (Silver). All aluminum, well laid out, and plenty of room. :D

Well that is a little nicer looking. I understand having space for hard drives, 8 hard drive bays in a MacPro would be awesome, but why so many 5.25'' bays? I think anything more than 3 is a waste. One or two Optical, maybe a tape backup?

Granted, I'd love to have one of these in the front of the MacPro.

http://www.cooldrives.com/quswsamorafo.html
http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/cooldrives_2036_48498783

jjahshik32

Jan 18, 2009, 03:11 AM

That's true. And 2.93 GHz as the base model or a 400 MHz gap between the 2.8 GHz and the 3.2 GHz doesn't make much sense. Apple could cut corners elsewhere, but that isn't the best thing either.

You think Apple might cut corners with the cache monies!

cybeross

Jan 18, 2009, 04:41 AM

i say keep the handles... in less safe areas, you can put a bike lock around the handles to make it harder to steal, better than a little kensington lock..

imacdaddy

Jan 18, 2009, 05:47 AM

Fortunately, I do... ;) I was originally going to reject my idea for a newer design, but I'll throw out one hint right now:

Handles. Does the design still need them? Your response will be the determining factor in whether or not I keep up with this drawing or go with something else. So... will Apple keep the PowerMac G3 theme?

I like the handles and I think they are here to stay. I like the fact it raises the system +1 inch off the surface which makes the case look light. When you have RAM loaded on every slot and each of the 4 HD bays utilised, you will appreciate the handles at the top.

Think of the MP as a basket filled with yummy Apples and the handles are there for you to carry your yummy apples around. You wouldn't carry a heavy basket load of apples in your arms would ya?

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_JT9ecmpyoIw/SXMWcqTgDvI/AAAAAAAAA9o/jcw0f2NIJ0s/s400/STAFF_IMAGE.JPG

Tallest Skil

Jan 18, 2009, 05:49 AM

Handles it is, then. Anyone with their own ideas is free to post them, of course. No jokes, please; don't be posting Dell towers.

imacdaddy

Jan 18, 2009, 06:03 AM

Handles it is, then. Anyone with their own ideas is free to post them, of course. No jokes, please; don't be posting Dell towers.

Aside from the internals, the current case design is pretty much a uni-body design. I think it would be simplified further to continue with their uni-body approach. Also ditch the tray loading SuperDrive for a slot loading like all the other Macs including Xserve.

Tallest Skil

Jan 18, 2009, 06:12 AM

Also ditch the tray loading SuperDrive for a slot loading like all the other Macs including Xserve.

No, no, no, no, no... Tray-loading. These things need to be upgradable. You can't do that if you're forced to buy laptop drives.

chaosbunny

Jan 18, 2009, 07:32 AM

rylin

Jan 18, 2009, 07:42 AM

That idea of bringing some G3/4 design elements to the G5/Pro case just got me thinking. It could work one way or the other. I agree that a little more "rounded" look would make it fit into the lineup, and that could be one way to achieve it.

Just a quick try...

Too wobbly.
How about the Apple logo?
The stem is the handlebar for it, the chewed off part is where the SuperDrive is, and the bottom is just flat.

Note: not a ball-like case, but an apple with the sides cut off.

Not only would it be an insanely powerful machine, but it would also be a work of art ;)

Pressure

Jan 18, 2009, 08:01 AM

Device-ID 949E based on RV730 = FireGL V5700.

Tallest Skil

Jan 18, 2009, 08:03 AM

Device-ID 949E based on RV730 = FireGL V5700.

Huh? Are you talking about something you've seen in a point update of OS X?

Here's a glimpse of where I'm going with the design. I think that I can do good things with it.

Minus the giant knob, of course. And I had to cut the resolution a little, but it still looks good.

rylin

Jan 18, 2009, 08:17 AM

Huh? Are you talking about something you've seen in a point update of OS X?

Here's a glimpse of where I'm going with the design. I think that I can do good things with it.

Minus the giant knob, of course. And I had to cut the resolution a little, but it still looks good.

Mac Pro Wheel? ;-)

Tallest Skil

Jan 18, 2009, 08:26 AM

Mac Pro Wheel? ;-)

Ugh... :p

Now, Phizz at AppleInsider (reposted here by suneohair, but he's banned...) has the theme down, just not the execution.

I'm going to teach myself how to use Photoshop so that I can have a decent-looking mockup... This could take a fair amount of time. Until then, I ask that we go back to discussing hardware; there are still some ports to be decided upon and GPUs to lock down...

Theophany

Jan 18, 2009, 08:29 AM

Ugh... :p

Now, Phizz at AppleInsider (reposted here by suneohair, but he's banned...) has the theme down, just not the execution.

They look like Dell XPS rip-offs...

Tallest Skil

Jan 18, 2009, 08:31 AM

They look like Dell XPS rip-offs...

True, that's why my design will be more true to the real look.

Theophany

Jan 18, 2009, 08:35 AM

True, that's why my design will be more true to the real look.

Well get to it, I'm intrigued to see what you come up with :)

Tallest Skil

Jan 18, 2009, 09:31 AM

Well get to it, I'm intrigued to see what you come up with :)

Ugh. I'm crap at this Photoshop thing... I've always used Seashore, but it either can't really do what I need to do, or I don't know how to add plugins for more features...

nanofrog

Jan 18, 2009, 11:29 AM

Well that is a little nicer looking. I understand having space for hard drives, 8 hard drive bays in a MacPro would be awesome, but why so many 5.25'' bays? I think anything more than 3 is a waste. One or two Optical, maybe a tape backup?

Granted, I'd love to have one of these in the front of the MacPro.
The 7x 5.25" drive bays gives you some options, especially for RAID. Just drop in either 3.5" or 2.5" backplanes.

4x 3.5" drive backplane that fit into 3x 5.25" bays (horizontal orientation).

5x 3.5" drive backplane that also fits into 3x 5.25" drive bays (vertical orientation).

4x 2.5" drive backplane that only consumes a single 5.25" bay.

So if you really needed a lot of drives, you use 1x 5.25" for an optical drive, the other 6 for 2.5" backplanes, and the 8x 3.5" mounts internally, to give space for 32 HDD's! :eek: :D

There's enough extra space you could find room for at least another 3x 3.5" drives (empty PSU space alone, if available). Perfect for separate OS drives. ;)

Mattww

Jan 18, 2009, 12:09 PM

No, no, no, no, no... Tray-loading. These things need to be upgradable. You can't do that if you're forced to buy laptop drives.

I gotta side with Tallest Skil on this - no laptop slot loaders in a Pro desktop please. They are relatively slow and discs can get jammed much more easily. Lets have a nice SATA tray loading DVD-R drive (Black) that is very quiet. Noise is by far the biggest issue with the current drives. The latest drives all come out as desktop tray loading mechanisms first as well so it is important that you can just add one of these to a Mac Pro as new tech arrives.

diamond.g

Jan 18, 2009, 12:33 PM

Apple should shoot for the GT300 core (possible GTX 350). Slap 2 of those bad boys in a MP. Or even better yet a GTX 350 GX2 model. With Open CL and Grand Central that would be yummy. More likely would be whatever Nvidia calls the GT200b.

Also why couldn't Apple use Beckton? Jump from a measly dual quad to a more likable dual octo. Ah well one can dream..

Tallest Skil

Jan 18, 2009, 12:35 PM

Also why couldn't Apple use Beckton? Jump from a measly dual quad to a more likable dual octo. Ah well one can dream..

Yah, ah, ah! :eek: Do you WANT the base model to cost $4,500?!

Dream on your own budget. :p

The GTX300 series won't be out until Q3/4 this year. The Mac Pro will be out before that. Thus, no 300 series.

diamond.g

Jan 18, 2009, 12:45 PM

Yah, ah, ah! :eek: Do you WANT the base model to cost $4,500?!

Dream on your own budget. :p

The GTX300 series won't be out until Q3/4 this year. The Mac Pro will be out before that. Thus, no 300 series.

Well it would be the first 32 core workstation (4 CPU). Plus it would kinda force an upgrade to the XServe.

Tallest Skil

Jan 18, 2009, 12:48 PM

Well it would be the first 32 core workstation (4 CPU). Plus it would kinda force an upgrade to the XServe.

Stop. Making. Me. Think. :mad: :p

Beckton... BECKTON... with Snow Leopard.

A Gainestown Mac Pro and a Beckton XServe, both with Snow Leopard...

*river of drool, short circuiting my Penryn MacBook Pro*

nanofrog

Jan 18, 2009, 01:17 PM

Well it would be the first 32 core workstation (4 CPU). Plus it would kinda force an upgrade to the XServe.

Absolutely. :D Provided one could afford a quad Beckton based system.

Hmm...Can we say $15k Mac Pro? :eek: :p

diamond.g

Jan 18, 2009, 01:38 PM

Absolutely. :D Provided one could afford a quad Beckton based system.

Hmm...Can we say $15k Mac Pro? :eek: :p

Stop. Making. Me. Think. :mad: :p

Beckton... BECKTON... with Snow Leopard.

A Gainestown Mac Pro and a Beckton XServe, both with Snow Leopard...

*river of drool, short circuiting my Penryn MacBook Pro*

What better way to show off Grand Central and Open CL than with a 32 Core quad GPU rig?

Tallest Skil

Jan 18, 2009, 01:40 PM

What better way to show off Grand Central and Open CL than with a 32 Core quad GPU rig?

Showing it off with a 8 physical/16 logical core machine that at least SOME people can actually afford.

diamond.g

Jan 18, 2009, 01:40 PM

Showing it off with a 8 physical/16 logical core machine that at least SOME people can actually afford.

Pfft, go big or go home :D

That is why Apple made the iMac....

nanofrog

Jan 18, 2009, 01:58 PM

Pfft, go big or go home :D

That is why Apple made the iMac....

If you have that much cash, and are willing to spend it, buy 5 of the DP models, and build a 10 CPU cruncher. :D

More power, same $$$. :p

iMacmatician

Jan 18, 2009, 02:06 PM

Anyways, I think a portable desktop would be needed for some professions where a Macbook Pro would not be enough in terms of gHz/portability.Would a large and thick "MacBook Extreme" do?

diamond.g

Jan 18, 2009, 02:10 PM

Hmm, I wonder what wattage PSU Apple is going to use. And will it have all the needed PCIe 8/6 pin power plugs on it (at least 2 per x16 slot).

indiochano

Jan 18, 2009, 03:52 PM

Ugh... :p

Now, Phizz at AppleInsider (reposted here by suneohair, but he's banned...) has the theme down, just not the execution.

I'm going to teach myself how to use Photoshop so that I can have a decent-looking mockup... This could take a fair amount of time. Until then, I ask that we go back to discussing hardware; there are still some ports to be decided upon and GPUs to lock down...

That is truly hideous... NO BLACK ON THE MAC PRO PLEASE!!!!!
It would look like s hit

rylin

Jan 18, 2009, 05:43 PM

That is truly hideous... NO BLACK ON THE MAC PRO PLEASE!!!!!
It would look like s hit

OMG that is so racist ;(
You're not envisioning the right kind of black.

Not the shiny Dell XPS black.
Not the "black" of old Dell boxes.

Give me rugged black carbon-fiber with a thin coat of anti-reflex treatment.
A massive tower of power absorbing most of the light thrown at it.

Mmmmmmm.

Either that, or a fluffy neon green with pink tassels.

J the Ninja

Jan 18, 2009, 05:47 PM

Either that, or a fluffy neon green with pink tassels.

Do we get a side window and LED fans? Maybe with a fluorescent Apple logo that glows from the CCFL black light? Oh God, iHopeiHopeiHope!

Tallest Skil

Jan 18, 2009, 05:49 PM

Do we get a side window and LED fans? Maybe with a fluorescent Apple logo that glows from the CCFL black light? Oh God, iHopeiHopeiHope!

"Naw, dawg, we's be need summa dat undakarrige lytin', kno wh'im sayin'?"

This whole "teaching myself Photoshop to make a decent mockup" thing isn't working out, you know? :(

I'll just draw it. I'm better at drawing, anyway.

rylin

Jan 18, 2009, 05:51 PM

Do we get a side window and LED fans? Maybe with a fluorescent Apple logo that glows from the CCFL black light? Oh God, iHopeiHopeiHope!

The sidewindow should definitely be there, and all the internal cables should be white so we can fully appreciate the black light!
The fluorescent logo is actually the grill for the exhaust vent, and the fan has multi-colored LEDs, effectively giving us the old colored Apple logo!

Mr. Ive, step aside -- it's time for a case redesign! :D

J the Ninja

Jan 18, 2009, 06:12 PM

The sidewindow should definitely be there, and all the internal cables should be white so we can fully appreciate the black light!
The fluorescent logo is actually the grill for the exhaust vent, and the fan has multi-colored LEDs, effectively giving us the old colored Apple logo!

Mr. Ive, step aside -- it's time for a case redesign! :D

*whack* SIDE FANS SHOULD BE INTAKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(one of the things that annoys me about case design is side fans blowing out. It justs sucks air away from the CPU and GPU fans)

And this needs water cooling, just so we can have UV-reactive coolant.

rylin

Jan 18, 2009, 06:15 PM

*whack* SIDE FANS SHOULD BE INTAKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Think different! >:I
(Honestly, I could do this all night :p)

Tallest Skil

Jan 18, 2009, 06:17 PM

Think different! >:I
(Honestly, I could do this all night :p)

But let's not, shalln't we? :):o

rylin

Jan 18, 2009, 06:20 PM

But let's not, shalln't we? :):o

Indeed!
Apologies for the hijack ;)

Tallest Skil

Jan 18, 2009, 08:12 PM

Indeed!
Apologies for the hijack ;)

Not a problem.

Also, I've updated the first post with a mockup of mine. I wasn't about to draw every single hole, so the description of the design is on the second image. The image of the Griffin Amplifi is to give a general idea of the look. The sides are thicker, like that, and the cheese grater is black.

jjahshik32

Jan 18, 2009, 08:21 PM

Do we get a side window and LED fans? Maybe with a fluorescent Apple logo that glows from the CCFL black light? Oh God, iHopeiHopeiHope!

How about a see through clear casing! Man I hope to God its nothing like that...

bradleykavin

Jan 19, 2009, 12:10 AM

how long after the current processors began being produced by intel were the current mac pros released? does anyone know?

Dr.Pants

Jan 19, 2009, 12:45 AM

Release date: Based on the pushing back of production dates and the build time required thereafter, late spring or WWDC 2009 are good dates for release. Coincidentally, WWDC 2009 takes place exactly 518 days after the release of the Penryn Mac Pro.

I recomend reading the first post and/or using the search function in future. But I hope this answers your question. ;)

Shaved Kitty

Jan 19, 2009, 02:05 AM

I am waiting to spend $5 G.

Shaved Kitty

Jan 19, 2009, 02:14 AM

Not a problem.

Also, I've updated the first post with a mockup of mine. I wasn't about to draw every single hole, so the description of the design is on the second image. The image of the Griffin Amplifi is to give a general idea of the look. The sides are thicker, like that, and the cheese grater is black.

i read your posts. you are like a Meteorologist, i hope your info is accurate. coz i am planning to get a mac pro. hopefully they will have a 30 inch display as well.

jjahshik32

Jan 19, 2009, 02:54 AM

Already have the 24" LED ACD and its working great with the unibody mbp.. but I want to hook this beauty up to a nehalem mac pro and use the intel x25-m SSD as the boot too!

chaosbunny

Jan 19, 2009, 03:39 AM

Not a problem.

Also, I've updated the first post with a mockup of mine. I wasn't about to draw every single hole, so the description of the design is on the second image. The image of the Griffin Amplifi is to give a general idea of the look. The sides are thicker, like that, and the cheese grater is black.

I like your idea. I would just make the side stands (don't know how to explain it in english) more geometrical. I tried to make a quick Cinema 4D mockup:

yoyo5280

Jan 19, 2009, 03:46 AM

maybe the shape and stuff, but all allong the top and front curved black glass.

robinp

Jan 19, 2009, 05:29 AM

Tallest Skil

Jan 19, 2009, 05:55 AM

Basically, if it has only 2 risers, one for each CPU (with 3x2 slots on each) then we will need 6 sticks of RAM to fully utilise the 3 memory channels. Not convinced at all by this. Therefore, I suspect there will 3 risers (each with 4 slots), one for each channel.

Six slots per riser, you put the first set of three on the top first, second on the bottom first, third on the top second, fourth on the bottom second, just like now... You don't divide the matching sticks between the risers right now; you put them side by side on the SAME riser.

Not convinced by any of the sketch designs. Nothing that looks believable in any way whatsoever. We will see either the same case as now, or a small variation on it...

How is my case design either not convincing or not a slight variation?

rylin

Jan 19, 2009, 07:14 AM

maybe the shape and stuff, but all allong the top and front curved black glass.

Needs moar carbon fiber black!

robinp

Jan 19, 2009, 08:57 AM

Six slots per riser, you put the first set of three on the top first, second on the bottom first, third on the top second, fourth on the bottom second, just like now... You don't divide the matching sticks between the risers right now; you put them side by side on the SAME riser.

Erm, maybe. Currently you don't get the full benefit of the memory bandwidth until you have 4 sticks of RAM in the Mac Pro... whether that is to utilise the wider bus rather than the 2 channels I'm not sure... I'd always imagined that the adding in pairs on riser 1 uses the full 256bit of channel 1 and adding the 2nd pair into riser 2 uses channel 2. Seems logical this way round but I could be wrong.

How is my case design either not convincing or not a slight variation?

Are you talking about your rather poor pencil drawings, or the dell's with apple logos on? Either way, I don't know where to start. You are obviously not a designer. I'm not trying to offensive just making an observation. You do write well, just design isn't your thing.

sidewinder

Jan 19, 2009, 10:19 AM

Erm, maybe. Currently you don't get the full benefit of the memory bandwidth until you have 4 sticks of RAM in the Mac Pro... whether that is to utilise the wider bus rather than the 2 channels I'm not sure... I'd always imagined that the adding in pairs on riser 1 uses the full 256bit of channel 1 and adding the 2nd pair into riser 2 uses channel 2. Seems logical this way round but I could be wrong.

For the new Mac Pro and DDR3, there is nothing that says Apple could not spec out the mother board so that each riser had access to all three channels. Just because the current Mac Pro has the DDR2 channels split across the risers does not mean that cannot be different in future products. It would be nice if they color coded this time around. That would RAM installs simpler to figure out.

S-

nanofrog

Jan 19, 2009, 10:33 AM

Erm, maybe. Currently you don't get the full benefit of the memory bandwidth until you have 4 sticks of RAM in the Mac Pro... whether that is to utilise the wider bus rather than the 2 channels I'm not sure... I'd always imagined that the adding in pairs on riser 1 uses the full 256bit of channel 1 and adding the 2nd pair into riser 2 uses channel 2. Seems logical this way round but I could be wrong.
The current Mac Pro uses FB-DIMM's, which are a server variant of DDR2, and does require 4 channels to get the max throughput.

The next mode however, is different. It uses DDR3 (ECC = server variant) with 3 channels max, but the biggest difference is the memory controller is integrated in the CPU. This is why the memory is attached separately to each CPU in the system, hence the 1 riser/CPU.

You only need 1 stick per channel, and each processor can run on 1,2, or 3 channels. The second slot just allows a means of conveniently upgrading the existing memory without completely switching it out for larger DIMM's. :)

Tallest Skil

Jan 19, 2009, 10:37 AM

Are you talking about your rather poor pencil drawings, or the dell's with apple logos on? Either way, I don't know where to start. You are obviously not a designer. I'm not trying to offensive just making an observation. You do write well, just design isn't your thing.

How would you have it look, then?

chaosbunny did a better representation than myself; I can't draw perspective to save my life.

Horst

Jan 19, 2009, 10:49 AM

I like your idea. I would just make the side stands (don't know how to explain it in english) more geometrical. I tried to make a quick Cinema 4D mockup:

Now that looks really sweet, actually !
For practical reasons, you might want to keep the handles, though.

Also, add a G5-like clear inner shell, for those who want to maintain airflow while still being able to see them UV-reactive cables ! ;)

Tallest Skil

Jan 19, 2009, 10:51 AM

Now that looks really sweet, actually !
For practical reasons, you might want to keep the handles, though.

Also, add a G5-like clear inner shell, for those who want to maintain airflow while still being able to see them UV-reactive cables ! ;)

Oh, they're still there, but you can't see them on his mockup of my design. Look at the picture in my first post with words for their location; they're just recessed.

And a clear panel inside would be nice. Even though I didn't like the look of the G5 internals (at least, not as much as the Intel internals), I loved the clear panel letting you see inside.

iMacmatician

Jan 19, 2009, 10:59 AM

http://att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=153652&d=1232357908

http://att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=153653&d=1232358376Very nice mockups there. Tallest Skil, how about a post or a section in your first post that links to all the mockups, if such a section is needed?

And I don't know if any Xserve discussion is appropriate in this thread (because it and the Mac Pro have similar CPUs and release dates), but if Apple wants to keep the 80 W TDP of the current Xserve Harpertowns, the maximum speed that can be used is 2.53 GHz ($744 as opposed to the $915 of the 3.0 GHz Harpertown). That 2.53 GHz CPU is also the top of the 1067 MHz RAM Gainestowns.

robinp

Jan 19, 2009, 11:02 AM

How would you have it look, then?

chaosbunny did a better representation than myself; I can't draw perspective to save my life.

I'll see if I can find the time to have a go, but really these things take months to get properly right... I certainly don't have that much time particularly as I think it is a bit of a fools game - I'm about 90% sure the new design will be the same or an evolution of the current one.

nanofrog

Jan 19, 2009, 11:13 AM

How would you have it look, then?

chaosbunny did a better representation than myself; I can't draw perspective to save my life.

Maybe a Mechanical Drafting/CAD course is in order? ;) :p

Tallest Skil

Jan 19, 2009, 11:15 AM

Maybe a Mechanical Drafting/CAD course is in order? ;) :p

Once I get these gen-eds out of the way. Ugh.

grantrobarts

Jan 19, 2009, 11:17 AM

Tallest Skil

Jan 19, 2009, 11:20 AM

Any idea as to how the ACDs are going to be changed for the Mac Pro? One thing holding me back from just buying a Mac Pro right now is me wanting the new ACD, but it doesn't work with the current Mac Pro.

Is it going to strictly going to be an adapter?

I talked about that a few posts back and then threw it in the original:

I believe that Apple will include cards with dual Mini DisplayPort out only, and then include two Mini DisplayPort-DVI (single link) adapters in the box for compatibility with both THEIR line of displays and others (because it's a workstation. You won't be replacing displays with it).

Also, the 30" LED Cinema Display will logically be launched with the Gainestown Mac Pro, since it didn't come out at MacWorld.

grantrobarts

Jan 19, 2009, 11:36 AM

Yeah that's what I'm afraid of if I buy now... I'd rather have the mini DVI ports.

Don't you think the price of a 30" LED Display would be a lot cheaper than the current 30"? It seems like a ridiculous price jump from the 24" LED to the current 30" LCD. Seems like they would adjust the price, but then again people are still buying the 30" at the $1800 or whatever it is right now.

Tallest Skil

Jan 19, 2009, 11:39 AM

iMacmatician

Jan 19, 2009, 11:54 AM

Also, the 30" LED Cinema Display will logically be launched with the Gainestown Mac Pro, since it didn't come out at MacWorld.That's reasonable. I wonder if the 20" ACD will be discontinued and a 40" 3840x2400 display be added.

Tallest Skil

Jan 19, 2009, 11:55 AM

That's reasonable. I wonder if the 20" ACD will be discontinued and a 40" 3840x2400 display be added.

I'm betting on the discontinuation of the 20", but a 40"... Ehh...

Is there evidence to support it?

BenRoethig

Jan 19, 2009, 11:56 AM

Slight niggle here: Please, please, PLEASE keep this discussion limited to the Mac Pro. If someone wants to make a thread for the xMac like this, I would be happy to see one, but don't post any xMac ramblings here, please. Thank you in advance.

Updated to reflect posts as of 1/19/2009; 6:09 A.M. Now with epic mockup action!

This thread exists because I acknowledge that, while I have been very good at getting future specs correct in the past, I'm a little out of my league here. I don't know much about Intel's workstation hardware. I just want to learn more, is all! It's never a bad thing to learn. Also, it's nice to have a repository of information. Remember Multimedia's huge thread? I just hope that I don't wind up banned because of this one... :o:(

This first post will be edited as we gain more and more clarified information. The newest additions to general information will be in red. For everything underlined, I would personally like clarification on my points and information based on what everyone thinks will happen to said point, either for or against what I have said.

Points yet to be decided upon:
Gainestown production status: Unknown, presumed not begun
Release Date: H1 2009, before Snow Leopard (WWDC 2009 inclusive)
Base Price: $2,999
Ethernet: Dual gigabit or dual 10G
FireWire: two 800, two 3200, or two 400/two 800 (unlikely)
Hardware RAID: Does Tylersburg support it?
Fiber card: Will a better fiber card stop us from getting 10G Ethernet?
2TB HDD: Only possible if the WD HDDs are released before the Mac Pro... will they be?
SSD: What is the capacity of available 3.5" SSDs?
AirPort Extreme: Will it be standard? Apple had a rationale last time for not making it standard.

Hardware Specifications:
2.66, 2.8, 2.93, and 3.2GHz 8-core Gainestown Xeon processors
2 risers with 12 slots for 1333MHz ECC DDR3 RAM. It will not be FB-DIMMs. They must be added in sets of three DIMMs at once. Up to 96GB of RAM will be physically possible at release.
The ODDs will change to SATA
The three graphics options will be: up to four GeForce 9600GT or Radeon 4670, the GTX 260, and the nVidia Quadro FX 4800 or 5800
500GB HDD standard, with options for 750, 1TB, and 2TB*, as well as an SSD option (potential size?) and a 300, 450, or 600GB SAS option.

I/O:
PCIe 2.0 expansion: two 16x and two 4x, or four 16x (here's something I just thought of: two double-wide 16x?)
Bluetooth 2.1 EDR
5 (minimum) USB 2.0
Optical audio I/O
Analog audio I/O

Things we won't see:
USB 3.0 (2010, people)
WiMax (just making sure you're paying attention)
Blu-ray (see below)

Narrative:

SO! It's almost that time of the cycle again! We're getting closer to the beloved 518 days since a Mac Pro update, and boy, oh, boy, are things heating up! Or at least, they SHOULD have been. In fact, Gainestown was scheduled for a November 2008 production back in the middle of last year, but, along with everything else in the Nehalem line (except for Core i7...dorks...), has been pushed back. We have been hearing "Q1 production" for a while, but haven't heard anything recently.

The processor, Gainestown:

Gainestown is the two-processor variant of the Nehalem Xeon. The two most likely candidates for the Nehalem Mac Pro are the W5580 and the X5570. It will also include either (both?) the X5560 or the X5550. These four processors clock in at 3.2, 2.93, 2.8, and 2.66GHz, respectively. In 1,000 count lots, these processors cost $3,200, $2,772, $2,344, and $1,916, respectively.

That's a lot of money for the upper three, folks. I'll get into why those prices are significant later.

Assuming the 2.8GHz chip as the standard configuration, the base model price is expected to jump to around $3,000. Assuming the 2.66GHz chip as a BTO option to make it cheaper, the lowest price for the Mac Pro would become around $2,500.

The chipset, Tylersburg:

Gainestown goes in the Tylersburg chipset. Tylersburg supports two I/O hubs, meaning that we could see up to 4 PCIe 2.0 16x slots and 2 PCIe 2.0 4x slots. That's cool. I, personally, refuse to believe that Apple would do that, for various reasons known only to them. I think that we might see either two 16x and two 4x or four 16x.

Now the little things:

AirPort Extreme (802.11 a/b/g/n). Will it remain optional? I thought the reasoning behind this was that some businesses didn't want Wi-Fi in their computers, but I could be way off. It's been QUITE a while since I've heard any rationale on leaving it out.

FireWire: The current Mac Pro has two 400 and two 800. Here are two actually plausible scenarios: two 800 only or two 3200 (does Tylersburg support it?) I do not believe that Apple will retain the FireWire 400, given they removed it from their other pro product, the MacBook Pro, and failed to add it to the 17" model after three months' time to see the response.

GPUs: Discussion on what GPUs will be available is open, as well, but what about Mini DisplayPort? I believe that Apple will have all models include two Mini DisplayPort ports, and include IN THE BOX two Mini DisplayPort to single-link DVI adapters (making the dual-link DVI adapter a BTO thing at, perhaps, a slight discount?)

Blu-ray: Ugh. Here it is. Apple will be forced to add Blu-ray around 2015 to remain competitive with video media.

400GB Blu-ray disks will be in production in 2012-3. “What’s the point?” you ask. Super Hi-Vision. Super Hi-Vision is the next video format. It’s 7680x4320. That’s 4320p. Super Hi-Vision in MPEG-2 is 600Mb/s.

U.S. Internet speeds WILL NOT keep up with this. Heck, most of us can’t get 1080p in anywhere near a decent amount of time. To top it off, many of the major ISPs are putting monthly caps on bandwidth and time limits on the maximum advertised speed of their service.

We won’t be able to download 4320p movies in iTunes because our ISPs will give us the freaking shaft. It’ll be days to the download, even in 2015. We’ll all mostly have the bandwidth for very quick 1080p movie downloads, so iTunes will be able to offer that, but it’ll be the same situation in the future as it is now: Instead of people having 1920x1080 TVs with their SD iTunes movies playing on them through an Apple TV, people will have 7680x4320 TVs with 1080p movies playing on them through an Apple TV.

Where do I get my date for Super Hi-Vision adoption? Well, Japan will start 4320p television broadcasts in 2012, and the 400GB Blu-ray disks go into production in 2013… Television manufacturers are starting to make half-Super Hi-Vision TVs (4096x2160) on the highest-end already.

Redesign talk:

I have never been a proponent of a Mac Pro case redesign. Well, I was, but I was young and naïve. Now, I see no case redesign for three reasons:

1. WHY. It STILL looks amazing; the cheese grater is timeless.
2. The Mac Pro's audience generally tucks the tower out of the way after purchase, anyway. As much as it could be, it isn't a "show" computer.
3. Most importantly... what would it be changed to? For the past year, I've been trying to come up with a new design, and I couldn't do it because I just have no idea how to make it look better... because there isn't a lot that you can do to make it look better.

Explanation Section:

Release date: Based on the pushing back of production dates and the build time required thereafter, late spring or WWDC 2009 are good dates for release. Coincidentally, WWDC 2009 takes place exactly 518 days after the release of the Penryn Mac Pro. For those of you following my "518 days" complaint, you know what I'm talking about. ;) The release date is independent of Snow Leopard's release; they have nothing to do with one another. In the past, the Mac Pro has been released from 6-13 weeks after production begins.

$2,999: Apple should be getting a better price than that of the 1,000 lot price, because they'll be ordering more. However, the per-consumer price of Harpertown was the same as the 1,000 lot price for those chips so we'll see something very similar with Gainestown.

SATA ODDs: Based on the change for the MacBook line. Besides, even though ODDs don't get anywhere close to saturating the SATA transfer rate, ATA is old, man! Tylersburg supports six SATA ports, so that's four for HDDs, and then the other two (which exist on the current logic board hidden behind the fans–some people use them) can be used for the ODDs.

2TB HDD: Based on the fiasco associated with Seagate's 1.5TB drives and based on the time it takes to actually get this computer out to us, Apple might have 2TB 3.5" drives available to take advantage of as a stupidly expensive BTO option.

More to be added: your input is greatly appreciated. Discussion, ho!

**Contributors:

Umbongo: Tylersburg I/O clarification, GPU suggestions, real-world RAM limits, and better thread title than my unposted original
RobLS: reminding me about AirPort
Mattww: reminding me to add RAM clock speed and ECC
Greenhoe: reminding me about Mini DisplayPort on the GPUs.
rylin: for giving me the color timestamp idea
Eidorian: Radeon 4670 correction
J the Ninja: convincing me that they'll only use two risers. It makes sense.
iMacmatician: multiple lowest-end GPU reminder, CPU speculation, and Blu-ray placement fix
bradleykavin: I needed to add downtime between production and release

What we don't know Apple's intentions or product configurations.

Additions.

Tylersburg configurations:
Tylersburg exists in four variants: SP/24, SP/36, DP/24, DP/36. The SP or DP refers to whether it has a single QPI link for a single CPU or twin QPI links for dual CPUs. The number indicates whether it has 24 or 36 PCI-express lanes. All variants are SLI/Crossfire compatible. This single platform is intended to replace both x48 for high end single socket desktops and the 5400 chipset in dual-CPU xeon workstations.

Bloomfield/Gainestown. With the exception of a second QPI link for dual CPU configurations, these two chips are identical. Both will work in either SP or DP tylersburg motherboards, though bloomfield will be limited to a single CPU in DP motherboards. Gainestown (Branded Xeon 5500), however will be produced in a wider array of frequencies than Bloomfield (branded core i7 and Xeon 3500)

ECC memory support: There is some miss information about the Nehalem platform not supporting ECC memory. This is both true and false. Bloomfield CPUs with the consumer Core i7 branding have ECC memory support disabled. Bloomsfield CPUs with the Xeon 3500 branding and Gainstown Xeon 5500s have full ECC-support up to DDR3 1333.

Single CPU configuration:
When Apple moved to the PowerPC 970 (G5) they created a revolutionary new northbridge to accompany it called U3. U3 was designed be modular. U3 and U3H were designed for use in dual CPU workstations and servers. It was designed to connect to the K2 southbridge with an optional PCI-X controller between them at 1.6, 3.2, or 4.8 GBps through 8 and 16-bit Hypertransport buses. This allowed Apple to offer its G5s with single or dual CPUs, PCI or PCI-X, with 4 or 8 DIMM slots. The family also consisted of U3L designed for desktops. It was paired with a southbridge called shasta. U3L used a physically smaller motherboard and showed up in both the 1.8ghz single CPU PMG5 and the AGP iMac G5.

What does an old PPC G5 chipset have to do with the next revision of the Mac Pro? Perhaps quite a lot. On the intel platform, there was a divide. Desktops and servers/workstations used slightly different chips, with different sockets, different memory, and different chipsets. These factors have kept the base single CPU MacPro as a very expensive proposition as an entry-level Core 2 PowerMac would have been a completely different beast. With Nehalem/Tylersburg, this is no longer the case. The situation is much the same as G5/U3, same basic CPU core, variations of the same chipset, same socket, same memory. Xeon 3500/5500 and Tylersburg SP/DP are for the most part interchangeable. What this means for configurations is unknown, but the hurdles that have kept the line well over the $2000 mark are potentially solved.

Design and innovation.
The future of the cheese grater design depends a lot on its ability to adapt to using triple channel DDR3 memory. The integrated controllers on the CPUs each have support for three DDR3 DIMMs for a max of 9 in a single CPU configuration or a whopping 18 in a dual CPU configuration. They may also not be mountable on a riser card like FB-DIMMs. While this may seem a challenge, it also gives Apple a chance to innovate. So what could it possibly use?

First are the drives. With the Xserve and now MacPro, Apple is well versed in easy swap drives. There is even a rumor that the next Mac Mini could have an option to remove the optical drive for a second hard drive. There exists the possibility to take it one step further. Modular front bays. Yes, there are ideas like this out there like Cooler Masters' stacker series. But they haven't been used in any real first party system and quite frankly they look a bit like crap. Apple could do much better. A single 5.25" bay can house a single full size optical drive, dual slim notebook optical drives, a single 3.5" hard drive or card reader, a front I/O panel, or any 5.25 or 3.5" device not listed here. 2 bays can house fans up to 88mm (80MM standard) and 3 can house fans up to 133mm (120mm standard).

Another area where they could improve is possibly using an external power supply although, I can't think of one being used in the wattage the Mac Pro would require. It would have the advantage of freeing up room in the case and would lesson the cooling requirements for both the CPU and the power supply being in cooler air away from the CPU and motherboard.

dukebound85

Jan 19, 2009, 11:57 AM

That's reasonable. I wonder if the 20" ACD will be discontinued and a 40" 3840x2400 display be added.

my god man, how big of displays do people need!?

here i am thinking 40inch is huge for a tv sitting 10ft back lol

Umbongo

Jan 19, 2009, 12:09 PM

I talked about that a few posts back and then threw it in the original:

I believe that Apple will include cards with dual Mini DisplayPort out only, and then include two Mini DisplayPort-DVI (single link) adapters in the box for compatibility with both THEIR line of displays and others (because it's a workstation. You won't be replacing displays with it).

Also, the 30" LED Cinema Display will logically be launched with the Gainestown Mac Pro, since it didn't come out at MacWorld.

This statement would mean Apple having custom graphics cards made. I would think it is cheaper for them to just produce a DisplayPort to Mini DisplayPort cable. The potential GPUs we have talked about all have versions available with DisplayPort already. I can't see Apple having a custom Quadro FX 5800 made, being as the two manufacturers of them use the same design anyway (which has 2xD-DVI and 1xDisplayPort.

Tallest Skil

Jan 19, 2009, 12:11 PM

Tylersburg configurations:
Tylersburg exists in four variants: SP/24, SP/36, DP/24, DP/36. The SP or DP refers to whether it has a single QPI link for a single CPU or twin QPI links for dual CPUs. The number indicates whether it has 24 or 36 PCI-express lanes. All variants are SLI/Crossfire compatible. This single platform is intended to replace both x48 for high end single socket desktops and the 5400 chipset in dual-CPU xeon workstations.

Added to the OP. Why did you quote the whole thing, by the way?

Single CPU configuration:

Do you think a single 2.8 is more likely than a quad 2.66 on the low end?

Design and innovation.
The future of the cheese grater design depends a lot on its ability to adapt to using triple channel DDR3 memory. The integrated controllers on the CPUs each have support for three DDR3 DIMMs for a max of 9 in a single CPU configuration or a whopping 18 in a dual CPU configuration. They may also not be mountable on a riser card like FB-DIMMs. While this may seem a challenge, it also gives Apple a chance to innovate. So what could it possibly use?

I thought that it was 12 DIMMs...

Modular front bays.

It's Apple. The company that pushed every single button and port on all of their other computers to the back isn't going to cut more holes in the front of their tower, so expect side, tray-loading HDDs for a while.

BenRoethig

Jan 19, 2009, 12:27 PM

Added to the OP. Why did you quote the whole thing, by the way?

I didn't quote anything.

Do you think a single 2.8 is more likely than a quad 2.66 on the low end?

Single CPU, quad cores. Single and dual core desktop/workstation CPUs are just about extinct with Nehalem.

I thought that it was 12 DIMMs...

They support up to 9 a piece, but 6 (12 in dual CPU setup) is much more likely to be the standard configuration because of real-estate concerns.

It's Apple. The company that pushed every single button and port on all of their other computers to the back isn't going to cut more holes in the front of their tower, so expect side, tray-loading HDDs for a while.

The hole is already cut, the front panel of the G5/Mac-Pro line is a mesh screen.

Tallest Skil

Jan 19, 2009, 12:32 PM

I didn't quote anything.

My entire first post is in your post! :p

On the design, Apple wants clean lines. There HAVE to be holes for the drives in front, but they wouldn't cut more for removable HDD bays.

What was the purpose of the unibody notebooks, again? Getting rid of all the seams.

Seamless integration of software with itself and other software, seamless integration of hardware and software, and now seamless integration of hardware with itself...

BenRoethig

Jan 19, 2009, 12:39 PM

My entire first post is in your post! :p

Oh. I thought you were talking about the stuff about Tylersburg possibly being quoted from a site.

On the design, Apple wants clean lines. There HAVE to be holes for the drives in front, but they wouldn't cut more for removable HDD bays.

What was the purpose of the unibody notebooks, again? Getting rid of all the seams.

Seamless integration of software with itself and other software, seamless integration of hardware and software, and now seamless integration of hardware with itself...

Use black mesh and the lines will be much less visible while updating the design to fit with designs of the new Macbooks and cinema display.

Umbongo

Jan 19, 2009, 12:48 PM

chaosbunny

Jan 19, 2009, 12:50 PM

I'll see if I can find the time to have a go, but really these things take months to get properly right... I certainly don't have that much time particularly as I think it is a bit of a fools game - I'm about 90% sure the new design will be the same or an evolution of the current one.

Of course it takes months to design such a machine properly, but it is fun doing something quickly just to think about it, and just for fun, I think.

Anywhere here is an update to mine to show Tallest Skils idea with the handles. Thanks for the other feedback.

Tallest Skil

Jan 19, 2009, 12:54 PM

Of course it takes months to design such a machine properly, but it is fun doing something quickly just to think about it, and just for fun I think.

Anywhere here is an update to mine to show Tallest skills idea with the handles. Thanks for the other feedback.

You totally rock, you know that? Great mockup. Here I am, at one of the best computer engineering schools in the country, and all I have this entire month is one gen-ed class, because that's all they let us take (one class)...

LOTS of down time, lots of boringness, no major-related classes, and I was in Ireland last semester, so I don't KNOW anyone in my field that has the passion I do for this stuff... I've been trying to teach myself this stuff (CS4, 3D mockup software, etc.) but it isn't going too well...

So which of the four Tylersburgs are they going to use?

dukebound85

Jan 19, 2009, 12:57 PM

Of course it takes months to design such a machine properly, but it is fun doing something quickly just to think about it, and just for fun, I think.

Anywhere here is an update to mine to show Tallest Skils idea with the handles. Thanks for the other feedback.

yummmmm loves me some mac pro oreo

LOTS of down time, lots of boringness, no major-related classes, and I was in Ireland last semester, so I don't KNOW anyone in my field that has the passion I do for this stuff... I've been trying to teach myself this stuff (CS4, 3D mockup software, etc.) but it isn't going too well...
[/B]

you could always play around with the student version of maya or blender (freeware), google sketchup for just rough designs

kastenbrust

Jan 19, 2009, 01:06 PM

Of course it takes months to design such a machine properly, but it is fun doing something quickly just to think about it, and just for fun, I think.

Anywhere here is an update to mine to show Tallest Skils idea with the handles. Thanks for the other feedback.

nice mockup :) very professional, but Apple wont release one looking like that.
They're going through this phase of removing everything possible until your left with the bare essentials
or thats what that dopey English guy who designs all the products said on the Apple site when he was talking about the new aluminium unibody designs.

Tallest Skil

Jan 19, 2009, 01:07 PM

yummmmm loves me some mac pro oreo

I had to. I love the design, but I just had to. :D

Theophany

Jan 19, 2009, 01:09 PM

Anywhere here is an update to mine to show Tallest Skils idea with the handles. Thanks for the other feedback.

That design is awesome, if that was used by Apple I would seriously consider paying the extra cabbage for one over the iMac :D

or thats what that dopey English guy who designs all the products said on the Apple site when he was talking about the new aluminium unibody designs.

You mean Jonathan Ive, the guy that's been designing Macs since the original iMacs. Yeah, dopey doesn't really fly considering some of the great stuff he's penciled at Apple.

kastenbrust

Jan 19, 2009, 01:19 PM

I had to. I love the design, but I just had to. :D

**Dipping in milk will void the warranty**

kastenbrust

Jan 19, 2009, 01:20 PM

You mean Jonathan Ive, the guy that's been designing Macs since the original iMacs. Yeah, dopey doesn't really fly considering some of the great stuff he's penciled at Apple.

oh its all great, i love his designs, the unibody macbooks are a design feat. But come on, he's definately on weed or an extreme dose of beta blockers.

chaosbunny

Jan 19, 2009, 01:27 PM

But come on, he's definately on weed ...

Well, which designer isn't? :D

And thanks for the positive feedback @ all. :)

BenRoethig

Jan 19, 2009, 01:31 PM

You totally rock, you know that? Great mockup. Here I am, at one of the best computer engineering schools in the country, and all I have this entire month is one gen-ed class, because that's all they let us take (one class)...

LOTS of down time, lots of boringness, no major-related classes, and I was in Ireland last semester, so I don't KNOW anyone in my field that has the passion I do for this stuff... I've been trying to teach myself this stuff (CS4, 3D mockup software, etc.) but it isn't going too well...

So which of the four Tylersburgs are they going to use?

DP/36 in the twin quad core arraignments and possibly either SP 24 or 36 if there's a lower end single quad core configuration.

Can you site a source for this?

Everything you need to know about the tylersburg chipsets
http://xtreview.com/addcomment-id-3366-view-Intel-Tylersburg-chipset.html

List of Xeon 3500/5500 CPUs and prices
http://amdintel-cpu-review.blogspot.com/2008/11/intel-is-planning-to-launch-xeon-5500.html

I had to. I love the design, but I just had to. :D

Well, Mac Pro reverse oreo/ The Mac Pro Oreos have have blacks side and silver middle. Choasbunny did a great job on that mockup.

J the Ninja

Jan 19, 2009, 01:31 PM

Bloomfield/Gainestown. With the exception of a second QPI link for dual CPU configurations, these two chips are identical. Both will work in either SP or DP tylersburg motherboards, though bloomfield will be limited to a single CPU in DP motherboards. Gainestown (Branded Xeon 5500), however will be produced in a wider array of frequencies than Bloomfield (branded core i7 and Xeon 3500)

ECC memory support: There is some miss information about the Nehalem platform not supporting ECC memory. This is both true and false. Bloomfield CPUs with the consumer Core i7 branding have ECC memory support disabled. Bloomsfield CPUs with the Xeon 3500 branding and Gainstown Xeon 5500s have full ECC-support up to DDR3 1333.

Single CPU configuration:
When Apple moved to the PowerPC 970 (G5) they created a revolutionary new northbridge to accompany it called U3. U3 was designed be modular. U3 and U3H were designed for use in dual CPU workstations and servers. It was designed to connect to the K2 southbridge with an optional PCI-X controller between them at 1.6, 3.2, or 4.8 GBps through 8 and 16-bit Hypertransport buses. This allowed Apple to offer its G5s with single or dual CPUs, PCI or PCI-X, with 4 or 8 DIMM slots. The family also consisted of U3L designed for desktops. It was paired with a southbridge called shasta. U3L used a physically smaller motherboard and showed up in both the 1.8ghz single CPU PMG5 and the AGP iMac G5.

What does an old PPC G5 chipset have to do with the next revision of the Mac Pro? Perhaps quite a lot. On the intel platform, there was a divide. Desktops and servers/workstations used slightly different chips, with different sockets, different memory, and different chipsets. These factors have kept the base single CPU MacPro as a very expensive proposition as an entry-level Core 2 PowerMac would have been a completely different beast. With Nehalem/Tylersburg, this is no longer the case. The situation is much the same as G5/U3, same basic CPU core, variations of the same chipset, same socket, same memory. Xeon 3500/5500 and Tylersburg SP/DP are for the most part interchangeable. What this means for configurations is unknown, but the hurdles that have kept the line well over the $2000 mark are potentially solved.

See? I'm not the only one who thought of this!

Umbongo

Jan 19, 2009, 01:56 PM

Everything you need to know about the tylersburg chipsets
http://xtreview.com/addcomment-id-3366-view-Intel-Tylersburg-chipset.html

Nothing there indicates that 5500 Xeons will work on single socket boards, or visa versa. Couldn't find anything anywhere else either. I'm not saying it isn't possible or probable, but I don't see anything that specifically says it is possible and is going to be supported.

Theophany

Jan 19, 2009, 02:07 PM

oh its all great, i love his designs, the unibody macbooks are a design feat. But come on, he's definately on weed or an extreme dose of beta blockers.

LMFAO!! No argument from me there :D

netdog

Jan 19, 2009, 02:08 PM

That is truly hideous... NO BLACK ON THE MAC PRO PLEASE!!!!!
It would look like s hit

Like it or not, black and silver are the new black over at Apple, so you Gainestown boys are gonna get some. At least my Penryn (and current ACD30) will remain a lot more beautiful then your black and aluminum MPs and yer black and aluminum and glass (:eek:) ACDs.

:D

diamond.g

Jan 19, 2009, 02:12 PM

iMacmatician

Jan 19, 2009, 02:20 PM

I'm betting on the discontinuation of the 20", but a 40"... Ehh...

Is there evidence to support it?There was a rumor two (?) years ago that said Apple might release larger-than-30" ACDs, but...

But I'm wishing. :p

DP/36 in the twin quad core arraignments and possibly either SP 24 or 36 if there's a lower end single quad core configuration.Two different boards...not sure about that.

J the Ninja

Jan 19, 2009, 02:32 PM

But I'm wishing. :p

Two different boards...not sure about that.

Wouldn't it be the same board though, just a different NB/IO hub?

Ok, does ANYONE know if DDR3 can be put on a riser card or not? I always thought that was one of the reasons for FB-DIMM, it allowed that since it removed the need to directly wire every pin of every DIMM slot to the NB. In any case, if DDR3 does require a direct connection, that would be a 1440-pin connection for each 6-slot riser! :eek:

Also, if there is a cap of 9 DIMMs per CPU, does that mean 12 slots could only be done when running with 2 CPUs?

BenRoethig

Jan 19, 2009, 02:33 PM

Nothing there indicates that 5500 Xeons will work on single socket boards, or visa versa. Couldn't find anything anywhere else either. I'm not saying it isn't possible or probable, but I don't see anything that specifically says it is possible and is going to be supported.

This should help. The second quicklink is dormant if if there is not another CPU present.
http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/view.php?id=2516&cid=2&pg=3

Usually the single socket systems have a different pinout. You can have one cpu in a multicpu system with the others empty. I don't remember if you have to have a blank or not. I also am not sure it would be any more cost effective to have one (or more) of the sockets removed in a multicpu system. As you already have all the extra pins for communicating with the other cpu's.

Plus when's the last time you heard of two related CPUs with the same pin layout not being compatible with two related motherboards? Intel used the same pin layout on purpose.

There was a rumor two (?) years ago that said Apple might release larger-than-30" ACDs, but...

But I'm wishing. :p

Two different boards...not sure about that.

PMG5 had three.

Wouldn't it be the same board though, just a different NB/IO hub?

Actually same NB/IO hub, just slightly different variants. Saves intel a bundle on hardware development and driver work while offering flexibility to the consumer.

Umbongo

Jan 19, 2009, 03:08 PM

This should help. The second quicklink is dormant if if there is not another CPU present.
http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/view.php?id=2516&cid=2&pg=3

Plus when's the last time you heard of two related CPUs with the same pin layout not being compatible with two related motherboards? Intel used the same pin layout on purpose.

Right, but when was the last time Intel had DP and UP processors work on the same board? Logically the possibility makes sense. I see where you are comming from and I can see where the benfits could be for Intel, vendors and consumers. However I'd have expected someone to have specifically stated that UP processors will work on a DP chipset and vice versa by now.

Maybe it's just assumed by tech writers who are aware of the feature that it's common knowledge so relaying the information has been overlooked.

rylin

Jan 19, 2009, 03:12 PM

**Dipping in milk will void the warranty**

Do not eat Gainestown Mac Pro (http://www.weblogsinc.com/common/images/3486252161648138.JPG?0.7987959734451098).

Umbongo

Jan 19, 2009, 03:26 PM

Also, if there is a cap of 9 DIMMs per CPU, does that mean 12 slots could only be done when running with 2 CPUs?

Yes. Without a second CPU there is no way for the other one to access the extra memory branch as each branch is connected to the system via the intergrated memory controller on the processor. So if Apple offer a single processor on a dual socket board (as they currently do) it would be limited to 6 DIMMs.

jjahshik32

Jan 19, 2009, 03:44 PM

Very nice mockups there. Tallest Skil, how about a post or a section in your first post that links to all the mockups, if such a section is needed?

And I don't know if any Xserve discussion is appropriate in this thread (because it and the Mac Pro have similar CPUs and release dates), but if Apple wants to keep the 80 W TDP of the current Xserve Harpertowns, the maximum speed that can be used is 2.53 GHz ($744 as opposed to the $915 of the 3.0 GHz Harpertown). That 2.53 GHz CPU is also the top of the 1067 MHz RAM Gainestowns.

I hope it doesnt look like that...

Tallest Skil

Jan 19, 2009, 03:46 PM

I hope it doesnt look like that...

How would you have it look, either inside or out? Post a mockup! :)

jjahshik32

Jan 19, 2009, 03:52 PM

How would you have it look, either inside or out? Post a mockup! :)

From that mockup the only thing I liked was the black apple lol. I'll just let apple think of the new design.

ggg05a

Jan 19, 2009, 07:55 PM

Tallest Skil

Jan 19, 2009, 07:56 PM

I wonder how well these new CPU's are going to handle heat?

Very well.

I always wondered why Apple doesn't look towards some kinda of liquid cooling to regulate temperature.

Because that LEAKED in the G5...

I also vote Apple lets us into the BIOS on the Mac Pros.

Why? It's not BIOS; It's EFI.

dukebound85

Jan 19, 2009, 07:56 PM

I wonder how well these new CPU's are going to handle heat?

I always wondered why Apple doesn't look towards some kinda of liquid cooling to regulate temperature.

I also vote Apple lets us into the BIOS on the Mac Pros.

--Garrett

they did implement liquid cooling with the G5's

needless to say, many have leaked

there is no bios in the mac pro by the way

ggg05a

Jan 19, 2009, 07:59 PM

they did implement liquid cooling with the G5's

needless to say, many have leaked

there is no bios in the mac pro by the way

You learn stuff everyday.

What was leaking? I have yet to have a problem. . . .

J the Ninja

Jan 19, 2009, 08:01 PM

You learn stuff everyday.

What was leaking? I have yet to have a problem. . . .

The coolant.

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/systems/G5_coolant_leaks.html

And EFI is no reason to dump the setup utility. Heck, they could put a Safari in there if they wanted to. But they won't.

http://www.hardware.info/images/news/MSI_Click_BIOS_01.jpg

dukebound85

Jan 19, 2009, 08:02 PM

You learn stuff everyday.

What was leaking? I have yet to have a problem. . . .

http://www.macsimumnews.com/index.php/archive/macosgliquid_cooled_power_mac_g5s_leaking/

Eidorian

Jan 19, 2009, 08:02 PM

You learn stuff everyday.

What was leaking? I have yet to have a problem. . . .http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/systems/G5_coolant_leaks.html

robinp

Jan 19, 2009, 08:09 PM

yummmmm loves me some mac pro oreo

you could always play around with the student version of maya or blender (freeware), google sketchup for just rough designs

neither maya or blender are that accurate for product/technical designs. Sign up to take part in the Rhino beta program for mac. That is one **** hot app. Export as .obj files to throw into maya for rendering and you're in business

carolhayes

Jan 19, 2009, 08:52 PM

I am in need of a Mac Pro. I have been saving for months and a friend told me to check here. I do not want to by one and have the new one come out a month later but am not sure if I can hold out till June. Is there any thought they won't put out a new one at all this year? I need a 30" display but since I do image editing I do not want the LED. Should I go ahead and get a display in case they get rid of the 30" (just like the 24") and replace it with the LED?

TheStrudel

Jan 19, 2009, 09:14 PM

Why would you not want LED? Cold-cathode flourescent lamp backlit (that's what they use now) displays offer zero advantages over LED backlit displays. Now, if you said you didn't like glossy, that might be a more valid reason, but there are zero disadvantages to having LED backlit displays. More to the point, it'd last longer and have more even lighting (and therefore consistency) than other displays.

carolhayes

Jan 19, 2009, 09:22 PM

Sorry- I was not clear- yes the reflective screen is not good for editing.

indiochano

Jan 19, 2009, 09:53 PM

Like it or not, black and silver are the new black over at Apple, so you Gainestown boys are gonna get some. At least my Penryn (and current ACD30) will remain a lot more beautiful then your black and aluminum MPs and yer black and aluminum and glass (:eek:) ACDs.

:D

I'm a graphic designer and my sister's an industrial designer... we both agree that the current mac pro is at its best design level... and i dont think any design could surpass the minimal and clean look of the mac pro paired up with the silver ACDs... seriously, it's the most beautiful piece of equipment i've ever seen and it would be real shame if they did in fact change it to black.........

kudos to chaos for that mockup, but my position still stands... the mac pro just doesnt look right with black....

they ruined the macbook pro, now they'll ruin the mac pro...

fck.... i know its inevitable, but i keep hoping for the same design to remain for years to come.... ahh.. wishful thinking..... :(

Umbongo

Jan 19, 2009, 10:06 PM

Sorry- I was not clear- yes the reflective screen is not good for editing.

Check out the NEC LCD3090WQXi. A bit more expensive than the current ACDs, but probably the best buy for a 30" if quality is a concern.

indiochano

Jan 19, 2009, 10:31 PM

m1stake

Jan 19, 2009, 11:01 PM

I think I could top that with ms paint with my screen off.

indiochano

Jan 19, 2009, 11:07 PM

I think I could top that with ms paint with my screen off.

im waiting.. lets see your masterpiece

JesterJJZ

Jan 19, 2009, 11:52 PM

im waiting.. lets see your masterpiece

Yeah...it was kinda a crap thing to say.

yoyo5280

Jan 20, 2009, 02:11 AM

I think I could top that with ms paint with my screen off.

genuine d0*ch3 attitude mate.

post your masterpiece. I'm waiting to nit pick

rylin

Jan 20, 2009, 04:35 AM

they ruined the macbook pro

No they didn't.
They may have ruined it for YOU, but to me it's definitely an improvement.

The Mac Pro is pretty much timeless, but the previous MBP was getting older by the day.

UltraNEO*

Jan 20, 2009, 04:47 AM

btw here's a mockup i made since we're heading towards a design with black on it...

this is what I would like to have... (well, except for the black).. something simple and elegant

PS: by the way, the apple logo would be backlit, the same way the macbook pro has it.

Looks a bit like this...

http://images.bit-tech.net/content_images/2008/10/apple-core-duo-by-cyprio/final10.jpg
http://images.bit-tech.net/content_images/2008/10/apple-core-duo-by-cyprio/final03.jpg

diamond.g

Jan 20, 2009, 07:05 AM

I still believe Apple should step up to a 4 socket system. Yes it would cost more initially, but it would allow for something never seen in a tower design. Yeah speed wise it would probably be a step down, but then again you gain another 8 cores. It would truly put the Mac Pro in a league of its own.

Could anyone here imagine:
4 Quad Core X7350 (2.93Ghz)
256GB of DDR3 FB-DIMMs
8 2.5" SATA/SAS drives
2 GTX 295's
Dual 1500W power supplys (redundant power)
Bluetooth, 802.11N

:D

Dragonforce

Jan 20, 2009, 07:17 AM

Could anyone here imagine:
4 Quad Core X7350 (2.93Ghz)
256GB of DDR3 FB-DIMMs
8 2.5" SATA/SAS drives
2 GTX 295's
Dual 1500W power supplys (redundant power)
Bluetooth, 802.11N

:D

I could imagine my next electricity bill running a machine like that :p

diamond.g

Jan 20, 2009, 07:34 AM

I could imagine my next electricity bill running a machine like that :p

AFAIK the Mac Pro now has an 1100W power supply. Adding a redundant supply and upping the wattage by 400W won't actually make as much of a difference as you would think. Especially if you don't run her full tilt all the time. ;)

Rt&Dzine

Jan 20, 2009, 09:28 AM

btw here's a mockup i made since we're heading towards a design with black on it...
this is what I would like to have... (well, except for the black).. something simple and elegant

Simple and elegant is good, but no handles? Have you ever lifted a Mac Pro?

Tallest Skil

Jan 20, 2009, 09:39 AM

polaris20

Jan 20, 2009, 09:45 AM

I still believe Apple should step up to a 4 socket system. Yes it would cost more initially, but it would allow for something never seen in a tower design.

They'd be the first tier 1 vendor to do it, perhaps. But there's been quad socket workstations around for quite awhile from specialty dealers, usually Linux-orientated workstations.

diamond.g

Jan 20, 2009, 09:49 AM

People are saying the current one is 930W.

Dang, lower than I thought. Odd, though. Isn't the X5482 (the CPU I presume the MP uses) a 150W model? That would imply that Gainestown is actually going to be more power efficient. That is a good thing. My imaginary God Mac Pro would only need a 1200W PSU. That is very good.

Umbongo

Jan 20, 2009, 09:53 AM

People are saying the current one is 930W.

It's a 980W PSU. Or at least that is what replacement PSUs are rated at.

nanofrog

Jan 20, 2009, 09:59 AM

AFAIK the Mac Pro now has an 1100W power supply. Adding a redundant supply and upping the wattage by 400W won't actually make as much of a difference as you would think. Especially if you don't run her full tilt all the time. ;)

People are saying the current one is 930W.
Current Model = 980W Output

Assuming a nominal wall voltage of 115VAC, then the efficiency = 71% at full load. Not wonderful. :(

Luftwaffles

Jan 20, 2009, 10:06 AM

http://images.bit-tech.net/content_images/2008/10/apple-core-duo-by-cyprio/final10.jpg
http://images.bit-tech.net/content_images/2008/10/apple-core-duo-by-cyprio/final03.jpg

I WANT IT!

Seriously. That's instant billions for Apple. Sexiest Pro ever. :eek:

diamond.g

Jan 20, 2009, 10:13 AM

Current Model = 980W Output

Assuming a nominal wall voltage of 115VAC, then the efficiency = 71% at full load. Not wonderful. :(

Well 71% isn't horrible. They definately need an 80%+ unit in the new Mac Pro though. It would make them look better.

nanofrog

Jan 20, 2009, 10:25 AM

Well 71% isn't horrible. They definitely need an 80%+ unit in the new Mac Pro though. It would make them look better.
An 80 Plus rated PSU is effectively necessary these days. Especially when using a unit this size.

To me, the 71% says Apple was cutting corners to improve their margins. :(

BTW, if you run the math at the max sustained rating on wall voltage (125VAC), the efficiency drops even further to 65%. :eek: :(

m1stake

Jan 20, 2009, 10:47 AM

That mentality really bothers me; Apple advertises it's computers as if they are premium products when in fact they use a lot of substandard parts. :/

Sehnsucht

Jan 20, 2009, 01:04 PM

I agree, I have a feeling it will be priced the same if not slightly cheaper.

It would make sense to for it to be slightly cheaper, but then again...The current Harpertown Mac Pro has the same base price ($2,799) as the unibody 17" MBP. A laptop!!! That's insane!! :eek:

Tallest Skil

Jan 20, 2009, 01:05 PM

It would make sense to for it to be slightly cheaper...

Why? It'll be more.

indiochano

Jan 20, 2009, 01:43 PM

Simple and elegant is good, but no handles? Have you ever lifted a Mac Pro?

yea i know... as i said, the current mac pro's design is irreplaceable... i dont think there's any design out there that could possibly replace the design they have today... i was just having some fun and should be taken with a grain of salt :P

i wish there was no black on the mac pros to come... but its just wishful thinking

indiochano

Jan 20, 2009, 01:46 PM

No they didn't.
They may have ruined it for YOU, but to me it's definitely an improvement.

The Mac Pro is pretty much timeless, but the previous MBP was getting older by the day.

hmm... im fine with the fact that they added the black frame on the displays... but to make the keys black was something of a mistake IMO... they had a perfectly refined looking notebook with its all aluminum look. adding patches of black like on the keyboard made it look like a dell notebook.

same thing happened with the ACDs.... i loved the utter simplicity of the screens, being all aluminum was perfect.

Rt&Dzine

Jan 20, 2009, 02:00 PM

yea i know... as i said, the current mac pro's design is irreplaceable... i dont think there's any design out there that could possibly replace the design they have today...

I think the design can be improved. When I first saw the Mac Pro I thought it was ugly.

nanofrog

Jan 20, 2009, 02:42 PM

That mentality really bothers me; Apple advertises it's computers as if they are premium products when in fact they use a lot of substandard parts. :/

Premium parts. Just another reason to build. :p

BenRoethig

Jan 20, 2009, 03:14 PM

Why? It'll be more.

Apple is very close to the braking point for all but the most high end professionals with Mac Pro pricing. PowerMac/MacPro pricing has risen $900 for entry level and $300 for mid level buyers since mid-2005. Entry level prices go down, sales go up.

jjahshik32

Jan 20, 2009, 03:17 PM

I think the pricing will be the same as Apple will get a good deal from Intel equalling out the pricings.

m1stake

Jan 20, 2009, 04:22 PM

I think the pricing will be the same as Apple will get a good deal from Intel equalling out the pricings.

Apple has an absolutely massive profit margin, they could keep the same $2799 price of entry and still make money. Their current octo-core machine sells for $2200 and change for biannual employee purchase events, and they even make a little money on those sales.

You're right though, Apple obviously gets a very large volume discount.

Premium parts. Just another reason to build. :p

Yeah, yeah, just another reason to feel stupid whenever I buy an Apple product. God, do I miss the old days.

jjahshik32

Jan 20, 2009, 04:41 PM

I am hurting for a Nehalem Mac Pro everyday! :mad:

BenRoethig

Jan 20, 2009, 05:07 PM

Apple has an absolutely massive profit margin, they could keep the same $2799 price of entry and still make money. Their current octo-core machine sells for $2200 and change for biannual employee purchase events, and they even make a little money on those sales.

You're right though, Apple obviously gets a very large volume discount.

Yes and no. Apple uses consistent margins throughout the product line. PCs makers use variable margins where they have low margins on personal computers and very high margins on workstations and servers.

nanofrog

Jan 20, 2009, 05:55 PM

Yeah, yeah, just another reason to feel stupid whenever I buy an Apple product. God, do I miss the old days.
LOL. :D

m1stake

Jan 20, 2009, 06:19 PM

Yes and no. Apple uses consistent margins throughout the product line. PCs makers use variable margins where they have low margins on personal computers and very high margins on workstations and servers.

That would partially explain why Dell can make the same computer for 20% less, and sell the workstation for 20% more.

Pressure

Jan 20, 2009, 06:26 PM

Current Model = 980W Output

Assuming a nominal wall voltage of 115VAC, then the efficiency = 71% at full load. Not wonderful. :(

Which is quite normal for a switched-mode power supply but I am pretty sure an expensive power supply ($299.95) has better efficiency than that.

How did you measure the efficiency, out of curiosity?

It's not every day you max out a 980 Watt power supply ;)

The 2006 Mac Pro only used around 200 Watt at load running Cinebench at the standard configuration.

jjahshik32

Jan 20, 2009, 06:26 PM

That would partially explain why Dell can make the same computer for 20% less, and sell the workstation for 20% more.

I heard Dell makes most of their profit from selling accessories and software to go along with the computer hardware which they make very little.

synth3tik

Jan 20, 2009, 06:30 PM

Tallest Skil

Jan 20, 2009, 06:31 PM

The problem with the new Mac Pros is that when they come out the chances of them having the same case is rather high. The same case the buckled under the weight of the G5, and later under the weight of the Mac Pro.

Until Apple fixes the casing on the Mac Pro to something that can support it's own weight I will hold off, new processors or not.

I'm not sure that I understand what you're saying, given that I've neither heard nor seen this problem in the years that I have been following Apple's professional desktop line.

jjahshik32

Jan 20, 2009, 06:34 PM

I'm not sure that I understand what you're saying, given that I've neither heard nor seen this problem in the years that I have been following Apple's professional desktop line.

I second that, Mac pro cant support its own weight..? Huh?? What are you talking about??

m1stake

Jan 20, 2009, 06:45 PM

I heard Dell makes most of their profit from selling accessories and software to go along with the computer hardware which they make very little.

Most companies (excluding Apple) make their real money on attachments. However, the person I quoted was correct that regular PCs have a very small margin that might be a little over $100. Workstations on the other hand have much higher margin. Regardless, you're correct that the big money is in attachments like cables. For example, a $30 usb cable is $28 of profit.

synth3tik

Jan 20, 2009, 06:45 PM

I'm not sure that I understand what you're saying, given that I've neither heard nor seen this problem in the years that I have been following Apple's professional desktop line.

about half the Mac Pros I have seen are warping under their own weight. Mine is, as is one at the Apple Store.

The feet are just not made to hold up that kind of weight. The plastic ones on the G3s and G4s were good and I never saw any issues, only broken feet from being dropped or hit.

Tallest Skil

Jan 20, 2009, 06:47 PM

about half the Mac Pros I have seen are warping under their own weight. Mine is, as is one at the Apple Store.

The feet are just not made to hold up that kind of weight. The plastic ones on the G3s and G4s were good and I never saw any issues, only broken feet from being dropped or hit.

Could you link me to a news article detailing this as a problem? Google isn't coming up with anything.

jjahshik32

Jan 20, 2009, 07:02 PM

Could you link me to a news article detailing this as a problem? Google isn't coming up with anything.

This is a very first that I've heard as well. Even from Power Macs (only issues were coolant leakage) and the Mac Pro with no issues except the reboot on wake (of the 8 core models) which I believe was fixed with a firmware update.

agile

Jan 20, 2009, 07:18 PM

Top notch thread Tallest. I have been waiting to buy a new Mac Pro, but with ddr2 prices so cheap, and really, let me put this in the best of wording sentence, a not-such-a-great-anticipated-performance-jump-noticeable-to-the-end-user-but-apparent-in-synthetic-benchmarks from Gainstown and ddr3. As I will be doings a lot of VMs and development, and regular computng work, the current Mac Pro should suit me for a while.

I have 3 PCs and 3 Macs (Mini, MBP, + MBA), and I am chomping at the bit for a more powerful rig at home and the ability to chop off the Mini and 2 PCs since I am moving closer to Manhattan and will have less space. As I am a gamer too, the thing I am really hoping for is a gpu refresh - a 260 or 4870 will suffice!

If I wait for Gainstown, I may end up waiting for the next die shrink.:D