Discontinue the Mac

[blakespot]

John C. Dvorak has unleashed unto the world yet another spellbinding account of his views on the Macintosh entitled [url="http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,1885,00.asp>"e-Mac, i-Mac, No Mac"[/url]. Within, he ponders the issue of the viability of the Mac, stating...
<ul>Isn't it about time the Macintosh was simply discontinued—put down like an old dog? Why, exactly, does Apple maintain this line of machines instead of starting fresh or at least introducing something new with fresh legs. The Mac has become the AS/400 of desktop computing, except for the fact that it's prettier. Of course, if Apple never moves forward, what happens to the copycat Windows platform?
</ul>
...and calling OS X simply "an update." With this piece Dvorak has reassured any who might have doubted that he has a true handle on the nature of the Macintosh

[Moxiemike]

He's right. We should replace the Macintosh with the all new Red Delicious.

What a wanker....

He should be taken to the gallows and promptly discontinued. I don't disagree with his points about stagnation, but what gets is that he had to flag it with some Mac bashing up front.

I think the PC would could use something truly REVOLUTIONARY but it's no reason to bash Apple.... unless he's trying to wake a sleeping giant....

hmmmmm

:D

[nerickson]

I have been seeing this "idea" for the past few weeks. The idea being that the Mac be discontinued, renamed, reinvented, etc.

1. I don't get it.

2. None of these articles mention Windows as just being update after update of the same thing.

3. These articles and postings don't point to any other ideas that would go to "the next level" of personal computing. What doesn't the Mac do that they need it to do?

I guess I don't see the point of this unless it is to get 5000 emails from the Mac Faithful while saying that is not your intent.

[me hate windows]

What a moron, saying that the mac should be discontinued, when Windows has been around for almost just as long, and it has just been updated a thousand times like the Macintosh.:mad:

[gfsu]

isn't he that lame host for silicon spin? hopefully he gets fired someday, the show might be decent if they replaced him.

[blakespot]

What is odd is that OS X truly is "revolutionary," and Apple's current position has rarely held this much promise. Apple is doing most things right an has released the only desktop UNIX OS that works. How is that more of the same, looking back at OS 9 in comparison, and the old Apple??

Perplexing.



blakespot

[Backtothemac]

You know, he is a friggin idiot! I would love nothing more than to sit down one on one with him and have a debate. Can we send him an invitation to come here and explain it to him. Why not call for the reinvention of the PC? If anything is archaine, and outdated, it is the friggin Winblows operating system. X86, .dll, the registry! Please! He is flunky of Micro*****, and he has not intelligent statements to ever make of the Mac. Sure, I am sure that someone could say the same of me, but he is an idiot! X is an update! Dear God, if Microsoft tried to do what Apple has done with the OS, the world would probably stop dead in its tracks!

[eunuchs]

Considering that the AS/400 is an incredibly reliable workhorse found in most datacentres today....

That said, he does make a good point. The iMac is pretty, but hardly revolutionary. The original Mac was revolutionary. The move to PowerPC was ballsy. Likewise, the move to OS X was pretty audacious. But in between those three it's been only baby-steps.

In that same timeframe, PCs have gone from being glorified circuit boards to almost usable on a daily basis (thanks in no small part to ideas "borrowed" from Macs).

I, for one, would love to see Apple blow everyone out of the water with a completely new technology platform. Something revolutionary underneath the skin, rather than a pretty red dress. There have been flashes of brilliance in things like OS X. But, by and large, Apple has spent the last few years improving on existing ideas (think iPod, Xserve...).

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by blakespot
What is odd is that OS X truly is "revolutionary," and Apple's current position has rarely held this much promise. Apple is doing most things right an has released the only desktop UNIX OS that works. How is that more of the same, looking back at OS 9 in comparison, and the old Apple??

Perplexing.



blakespot

Right. but I think he's (and i am by NO MEANS defending him) talking about the lack of something in the UI that is similar to the Xerox PARC stuff back inthe eighties. There's been no revolution to that is what he's saying and is partially right. I suppose talking computers are next, fully functional (without special software/programming) machines that can listen to us, etc etc etc.

But he's still a half wit with really nothing intriguing to say. We just take what he says and respond/react/intellectualize it. Ya know?

[maclamb]

I agree that the concept of a PC has not changed since Apple invented it.
Woz was quoted a few years ago as saying the same thing - Apple isn't innovating, it's just making faster machines..

I disagree there has been no new, innovative tech since the mac - I look to the newton as the most innovative thing Apple has done since 1984

I agree the mac today is the mac from 1984 on Major Steroids.

I agree that complaning w/o having at least a requirement or idea is a loser's reaction jsut to garner attetnion and fill a column.

I agree he's an asshole.


Car's haven't changed since the early 1900's (or whenever) but so what?

I don't agree that OSX is an "update".

I agree with whomever wrote that GUI's have gotten so good and ubiqutious they have stiffled any other innovation.

So what would be the next thing?
I would look at MITs media lab for answers:

No, I don't want to wear or have an computer imbeded in me

So, smart agents, mobile objects, better input (touch, eye motion, etc) more intellignece in everyday things (seeI, Cringley's article saying why this won't happen soon - chips ch ange to often and are too expensive) are really where we will see the next changes.

I would rather have seen him describe the major frustations with personal; computing today and what users requirements are.

i would alo contend that apple engineered the Mac but it was "designed" at Xerox Parc - which I think I read recently was being sold off..

So, all in all I woudl give him a C- for quality and a B- for idea

[earblast]

hey...it's only a computer guys....who cares what anybody thinks about a machine. If it works for you great...this guy may or may not like Macs.....who knows, who cares...his goal is to generate coverage of himself...sort of like the news media in general.

[Roger1]

Interesting article. He claims OSX is nothing more than and update, but isn't that what Win2000, and Win XP are? Nothing more that updates of WinNT? As for design, I would much rather have a new iMac on my desktop, rather than a plain tan box (hmmm, when is the pc world going to update their design?). I guess this also means that firewire is nothing more than an update, being the first to use usb as a standard is nothing more than an update, and the same with wireless technology. Ah well, I guess he's entitled to his opinion. No matter how wrong I think he is.:D

[nerickson]

Another thing came to my mind when reading through these posts....

Ten years ago the pundits and columnists heralded the era of the set top box, the convergence of everything. The PC wouldn't exist in ten years according to them.

Perhaps this will still come but I really doubt it. Most of these 'revolutions' aren't really revolutions at all and die a quick death. What good is an amazing new technology item if nobody buys it. Newton was fantastic, but appearantly not enough to make it. WebTV? Remember that?

It's kind of like voice recognition technology. Sure, it is pretty amazing but do you know anyone you is using it all the time? It is more of a novelty than anything.

I suppose the day that we can speak to our computer as if it was another person in the room will be widely adopted but until then people will just use a plain old PC.

[xelterran]

this guy is a genuine idiot...

[barbaloot]

I don't really care what he thinks! I have a G4 450MHz Sawtooth. My roomate has a 850MHz Windoze and my boyfriend has a Sony Laptop 1.4Ghz. My computer screams past them in just about any program.

geno.

[cgmpowers]

I cannot think of a world where I don't have my Mac...

Ever since I switched from PC to Mac, going on 3 years ago this Christmas, I've been in heaven.

I've fallen in love with the one-shaped design of the iMac. The iMovie allowed me to take my videos and make wonderful home movies. When time came, I jumped to Final Cut Pro and "kicked it up a notch". The advent of iTunes allowed me to organize my CD collection, which spanned DOZENS of CDs. The iPod allowed me to take my ENTIRE collection with me, on the go. iPhoto organized the six thousand photographs i've taken with my digital cameras in less than 15 minutes; I found photos I had forgotten about and actually was able to have prints sent to friends and family with just 'one click'. Now I have a Superdrive Flat Panel iMac and can take the videos & photos and burn them to play on anyones DVD. This is not to mention other great things my Macs have brought me: Ability to be wireless through out my house & the yard and even neighbors house, the easy of use and mobility of the iMac and iBook, the excellent resell value on eBay when I want to upgrade--I've recouped 90% of my expense EVERY TIME that I've had to or needed to upgrade my machine...my old PC's? The old PCs just stop working and end up dusty in the basement or thrown away.

I love my PC and it does still sit in my computer room; but its my 'game machine'. I do all my creative work, the work that'll benefit my life, on my Macintosh. And if this is a relic, a machine that should be discontinued, then I'd just stop using computer altogether...because there's nothing above that I can do on the Mac that I can do on the PC...without spending zillions of money on software for the PC (iMovie, iDVD, iTunes, iPhoto are all FREE)..and even if I can do them on the PC with that EXPENSIVE software, it'll never be as easy as it is on the Mac.

Dvorak just needs to dig in the trenches and bolester the PC hardline that its MS or death...and that's just simply NOT the case...

[blakespot]

Originally posted by Moxiemike


Right. but I think he's (and i am by NO MEANS defending him) talking about the lack of something in the UI that is similar to the Xerox PARC stuff back inthe eighties. There's been no revolution to that is what he's saying and is partially right. I suppose talking computers are next, fully functional (without special software/programming) machines that can listen to us, etc etc etc.

But he's still a half wit with really nothing intriguing to say. We just take what he says and respond/react/intellectualize it. Ya know?
Well, Apple is introducting hardware compositing with Quartz Extreme. Seems to be farther "out there" as far as the GUI is concerned than any other desktop interface. For what that's worth.


blakespot

[bbarnhart]

Lawn mowers are still the same - but with more features
Washing machines are the same - more features
TV's are still the same - somewhat 'better' picture
Phone - same with cordless abilities
Car - same with 'safety' features

Although computers may still be the same think they were nearly 20 years ago, they have a lot more power. This, in turn, alows them to work on more complex tasks and to complete other tasks faster.

Cars don't go that much faster, clothes are not washed in 5 min., and I can't freeze something in 20 seconds in my new refidgerator.

However, I can now play amazing games, search databases very quickly, and perform touch-ups with Photoshop on my computer.

[pimentoLoaf]

What Dvorak doesn't "get" is that there will be no new computing technology regardless of what platform one is on.

Everything has been done already.

[Jays]

We know the truth, so what do we care what other people think? why do we try and convince others that the Mac is better? if everyone drove a Ferrari would it still be that special?

[arn]

I moved it off the front page... mostly, because I don't personally think there's much point to these types of articles. Obviously, it's just an attention getter... and I don't necessarily want to give him the extra attention.

arn

[sparkleytone]

just remember that this is the same guy who said the mouse would fail and had no real use in computing. who here has no use for a mouse?? who here has no use for a mac?? exactly.

[planetpetey]

The only old dog needs putting down is Dvorak himself.

For someone with obvious intelligence, seems he has decided that Mac bashing is a better use of his time. Ignoring advances in style, compactness, speed, reliability, ease of use, applications and also innovations like firewire & usb, not to mention great Mac tools like dvd burning, iphoto and ipod....are just not worth any merit to him.

If Mac is not coming up with new things, then someone please tell why there is NOTHING in the windows/PC format that compares in any way to the new i-Mac, in either performance or beauty for that price? A superdrive, flat screen, compact sized, iconic, beautiful PC? NOT!!

Dvorak is just like a PC...a big ugly boring beige collection of boxes, noise and mediocrity.

[Tommy!]

Originally posted by Moxiemike

What a wanker....


BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


phew! ok, calm down thomas...

Excellent, wonderful, perfect description. Keep up the good work.

[funkybass]

OK, I've been cruising this board since I got my Tibook-4 months ago and always thought about posting but it's a lot of working, signing up and writting messages a stuff, but I felt obligated once I saw all the John C bashing that was going on.

Fist off, did read anywhere in the article john say, "and windows with it's inovations far superior to apple...." I didn't. In fact the article states at the top that if apple didn't do it how would micro.. copy them.
I've watched John C on silicon spin and it was by far the best show on techTV, no BS just arguments. I appreciate that he has an openion and throws it out there. That's more then most of us can do. In fact I agree with him on almost everything.
This thing about mac osx being an update. In fact it is an update. It's even called mac 10. that sounds like the next step fron mac os 9 to me. Yes I know it's got a new kernal. yeah. If it didn't there's no way I would have purchassed a Tibook. I could go on for hours but I'll just say a few things.
OsX even looks like every other OS, including windows, I know it's prettier but look...
Menus on the top like file and the apple menue, view help.
Volumes mounted on the desktop
we have a dock now whicch does pretty much the same thing as adding shortcuts
the trash can is still there
even the basic hierarchy of nested folders and files

These are the inovations that john C states haven't changed, and they haven't. Just to keep you off my back, yes yes yes windows hasn't changed them either but that's no excuse as to why apple can't.

OSX is wonderful to use, I purchassed a tibook for writting code on and love it, However John C is completely justified in saying what he has said, it's all correct. I know I know all you that have been with apple for the long haul hate to hear anyone bash your beloved company and it tyrant (steve jobs) but just because somebody says something bad about apple does in no way mean that they are defending microsoft or any PC maker.

Oh by the way, I haven't turned off my Tibook since I got it, been running for 4 months straight, I put it to sleep but have yet to shut it down. try that on a sony or toshiba.

I have much more to say but I'll spread it out over different threads
L8

[Choppaface]

Originally posted by blakespot
Why, exactly, does Apple maintain this line of machines instead of starting fresh or at least introducing something new with fresh legs

because it would make microsoft look more like a monopoly :D :D

[King Cobra]

It's no surprise that this article is bashing Apple, since the article came from pcmag. I bet this guy gets paid to immitate the "Dude, you're getting a Dell" moron on TV. And now he gets paid to pry bull!!!! out of his ash, post it on pee (type) C Magazine, and make it smell half baked and half old.

Come on, OS X is just an update? I think that from OS 9 from OS X was the wisest move I have ever done, since OS 9 gave me way too many errors. And it's a damned shame that I still have to use Classic.

Besides, OS X is more than UNIX based. OS X started in (I think December of) 1996, completely rewritten from the center of the earth, back to sea level. With Jaguar around the corner, Apple has most likely hit Denver, the Mile-High City. And I don't think it's going to end there. OS X will continue to get revolutionary.

I try and think of OS X this way: It's really a beta for the perfect OS Apple may have in mind. OS 9 was not even close. OS X has vastly improved, with stability and interface changes. And, I'll admit, it's not perfect, maybe not close to perfect, but at least it is better and cleaner looking than the ***** this guy pulls out of his arse and posts. :)

[Nipsy]

Originally posted by blakespot
What is odd is that OS X truly is "revolutionary," and Apple's current position has rarely held this much promise.

As much as I love OSX (I argue its merits fervently whenever I can, and use it exclusively), I do have to argue with your calling it 'revolutionary'.

It is 'evolutionary' development at its best. It is BSD based, with Aqua being the best window manager EVER. It is like Linux, in that it is a GUI on top of UNIX, albeit well done, and easy to use. There's some NeXT in there, and some Apple too...

I am not agreeing with Dvorak here, but moving to file extensions, and a command line (both things which make my life alot easier) is assimilating to some degree. To be a 'revolutionary' step forward, OSX would be so simple you could obtain a file from anywhere, and the FS would journal it, and Macify it, yet so robust, that you could do anything we do with a UNIX based OSX. Instead of being the best execution of the best ideas of other OSes, it would be execution of new and unheard of ideas.

'Revolutionary' would have been something entirely new. It would have redefined computing, instead of setting a standard. It would have been shockingly different, and would have had a much slower adoption curve. It would have been the GUI all over again. And it just may have killed Apple...

Mac OSX, when you get down to it, is an incredible Window Manager, on a solid core, very well executed, but hardly 'revolutionary'.

Anyway, that's too much typing over one little 'r'.

[funkybass]

OSX is nice, it's the colmination of several pieces that had already been in use. The unix backbone is BSD which has been around for ever, most of the interface ideas like the dock came from neXt and many Many MANY of the interface ideas are straight ports from os9, such as windows menus desktop. These are all concepts that have been in use for several years and just because they have a new look to them doesn't mean that they're completely new.
I really dig osx and use it every day but there's nothing supernatural about it. Apple simply took concepts and even code that had been around for years and put it together. Sound familiear, circa 1984 Xerox. I'm not saying apple's steeling anything that's m$'s job but you need to look at things from more then just the surface.

L8

[jefhatfield]

if apple can come out with a new supermachine and call it something else...i am all for it if it is as revolutionary as the original mac was in its day

what would apple call the new generation of machines?

mac is easy and the word is synonymous with apple

if apple dropped the mac moniker, it would take time for people to catch on unless it was something...as amazing as the machine they put out in '84 like i mentioned

a G5 would not be anything more than a mac with a G5 processor...give it some super fast, yet unkown RAM, a super fast hard drive, a super fast bus, and make this thing undercut any pc on the market in its class pricewise...then i say apple has something "more than just a mac"

when apple came out with the apple I and apple II, an older computer student of mine had a personal computer that cost him only $14,000 usd at the time which he thought was a bargain...the apple II blew it out of the water price-wise and he seems to have been bitter ever since

sure his machine was faster and could do more than apple I and apple II, but he gave up a year's salary to get his personal mini-mainframe computer which was the size of a small fridge

other similar computers just a few years earlier were the size of rooms and worth hundreds of thousands to his 14 grand machine was still truly a good deal at that time in the mid-70s

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by funkybass
OK, I've been cruising this board since I got my Tibook-4 months ago and always thought about posting but it's a lot of working, signing up and writting messages a stuff, but I felt obligated once I saw all the John C bashing that was going on.

Fist off, did read anywhere in the article john say, "and windows with it's inovations far superior to apple...." I didn't. In fact the article states at the top that if apple didn't do it how would micro.. copy them.
I've watched John C on silicon spin and it was by far the best show on techTV, no BS just arguments. I appreciate that he has an openion and throws it out there. That's more then most of us can do. In fact I agree with him on almost everything.
…

I have to disagree that Silicon Spin is the best show on TechTV.

The Screensavers wins that honor hands down. Much more helpful, insightful and less argumentative posturing. If I wanted to watch a debate I would turn on Hardball with Chris Matthews to get my fix of an overbearing blowhard who only hears what he wants and is closed-minded as hell.:rolleyes:

[fitzg2md05]

Give the old bastard a little slack guys. Hes obviously just feeling inferior in intelligence compared to a G4. Personally, I could care less what someone says. Apples managed to stay around for as long, or longer, than most computer companies out there. Plus, Im perfectly happy on my Mac. I find those that seem to complain about macs tend to be windows users themselves. Sounds likes hes got some kind of small mans disease. I think we should all send him get better cards offering him our help in this time of his egotistical retardedness. Somehow, when thinking of what he (a windoze zealot) said about macs...the words "mind your own biznass" come to mind....

[pimentoLoaf]

osX is revolutionary for Mac users because it adds something we haven't had before: a command line interface.

So...

I'll agree that osX isn't revolutionary if Dvorak would agree that compared to text-based arrows and scrollbars and etc, introduced in DOS 4, that Windows XP is just more of the same boring dull-witted evolutionary programming.

[funkybass]

I remember the first time I used a mac, I though "where's the prompt?"
I would say that John C has on of the least tainted views in the industry. If you've watched his show or read some of his other articles you'd notice that he is in no way biast towards microsoft. In fact he rips on it more then most people.
I hate how I'm the only one defending this guy and his views. I'm interested to know why everyone is taking this so personally, heaven forbid someone say something about your precious macintosh that isn't completely flatoring.
I find myself defending my tibook all the time, and I've just decided to give up. Unfortunately simply by owning a mac I'm automatically placed in the mac camp. Before I got my Tibook I was running linux on a Gateway. I liked being in the linux camp because there was so much learning and expanding going on. The point of the linux camp seemed to be growing as a computer user and programmer.
On the other hand the mac camp seems to be simply a place for people who hate microsoft. Nothing can be said without someone comparing apples and windows. Frankly it's rediculous. I in no way endorse microsoft nor do I like the company but bitching about how much they suck and how much better your propriatary hardware and software are isn't going to do a thing.

oh by the way, I have the day off, which is why I've posted like 20 times to this thread.


L8

[King Cobra]

Originally posted by funkybass (a typical newbie)
oh by the way, I have the day off, which is why I've posted like 20 times to this thread.
L8

According to my count, you posted only three times...want to try 4? :D

Typical newbies.

But I will respond to your comment just before the one I quoted. Although many people complain about m$ I don't think we have to worry to much about it for a while; we'll let the courts decide. :cool:

[Nipsy]

Originally posted by pimentoLoaf
osX is revolutionary for Mac users because it adds something we haven't had before: a command line interface.

So...

I'll agree that osX isn't revolutionary if Dvorak would agree that compared to text-based arrows and scrollbars and etc, introduced in DOS 4, that Windows XP is just more of the same boring dull-witted evolutionary programming.

Ummm, I don't see that as revolutionary.

Would it be revolutionary if we got a parallel port?

Revolutionary would be having the power of the command line, without the archaic commands.

Revolutionary would be natural english scripting:

Imagine typing (or speaking) "find all mp3 files, and put them in a folder named after the album. put that folder in a folder named after the artist. Rename each mp3 file "track number period space song name.mp3"

This is something a UNIX user could do via the command line, but I guarantee you that that sort of power is wasted on 99.9% of end users.

I'm not bagging OSX here, but it isn't revolutionary, it is evolutionary. There are few things Mac OSX can do that aren't possible in either UNIX/Classic/Linux or Windows.

[Grokgod]

You have got to look at the psychology of this males ego!

Firstly This guy is one of those men that loves to fix problems.
They need the delusion of control to make them feel strong.

You see these guys arent creative people, they are the people that don't listen without offering a useless solution.
They love to fix their computers!
They love to constantly tweak them and needlessly upgrade them.

They never actually do anything with them except type or surf for porn.

If their Pc doesnt boot in the morning its heaven cause they have another war story to tell at work!

Its a whole different mindset, and its so obvious.

They couldnt own a mac cause then they would be at a loss.

[Ballresin]

Why does this guy ring to me to be an incompetent jerk?

I left a lengthy soundoff for all to see on the discussions there.
I don't like people like him.

[Sun Baked]

There's a lot of money spent supporting Windows.

Too bad most of the money is spent keeping it running.

I think I'd rather spend my money on new Apple hardware instead of the care and feeding of IT personnel.

[shadowfax0]

I am in no way agreeing with this guy, but what I think the gist is that, Mac was started as a little branch off Apple, right? SO why not start, like, ummm...granny smith...? Heh heh, I think it's like this analogy...if he had said this in a car magazine but said, "BMW should discontinue to 3-series because it's 'like an old dog, etc etc.'" this man WOULD be dead...but because we are just a few weak-wristed computer geeks he thinks we can't do anything :D

One last thing actually...if anyone can answer this, I think all racial profiling and wars would be stopped...why the hell do people care so damned much? I really don't get it, it's a god-damned piece of pastic and metal with some electricity flowing through it, so why the hell does everyone like to bash it so much? I suppose this goes for any majority vs. minority argument, sad really...:rolleyes: