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MacRumors
Apr 18, 2004, 11:39 PM
Appleinsider provides (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=428) last minute specs on the rumored iBook and PowerBook releases this week.

According to the rumor site, the iBooks will start at 1.0GHz G4's for the 12" model and top out at 1.2GHz G4s for the top end.

Meanwhile, PowerBooks will settle into two speeds. 1.33GHz G4s for the lower end, and 1.5GHz G4s for the highest end.

Pricing is said to be comparable to current offerings with the exception of the 15" PowerBook/SuperDrive which may come in at $100 less.

mkjellman
Apr 18, 2004, 11:42 PM
humm. i don't know if it is worth the update...I think this is going to be a really bad update as far a sales figures are concerned. They also need to rethink the aluminum because the current one bends to easily. And also, think of the heat. It is already bad enough on my 15" with a 1.25...

nsb3000
Apr 18, 2004, 11:43 PM
Appleinsider provides (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=428) last minute specs on the rumored iBook and PowerBook releases this week.

According to the rumor site, the iBooks will start at 1.0GHz G4's for the 12" model and top out at 1.2GHz G4s for the top end.

Meanwhile, PowerBooks will settle into two speeds. 1.33GHz G4s for the lower end, and 1.5GHz G4s for the highest end.

Pricing is said to be comparable to current offerings with the exception of the 15" PowerBook/SuperDrive which may come in at $100 less.

Finally, it is April, 2004, and the last of Apple's computers (the ibook) passes the 1 gigahertz Mark. That took a long time...

I must admit I was hoping for a little more, but I will take what I can get..

-Nathaniel

dho
Apr 18, 2004, 11:43 PM
darn better call my mom who just order a powerbook g4.

Hope she can cancel

omnivector
Apr 18, 2004, 11:44 PM
repeat after me. no g5 powerbook until early 2005 or late 2004. for those who just can't accept it :P

Giaguara
Apr 18, 2004, 11:48 PM
Wasn't this "next week" supposed to be the last week .. I mean the week that just passed?

adamfilip
Apr 18, 2004, 11:48 PM
Does this mean PowerMac G5 updates on Tuesday :) ?

|_wise_|
Apr 18, 2004, 11:48 PM
i was just about to buy and ibook anyway....at least we get a cache increase and a slightly bigger processor for (at max) the same price...

quit whining ppl....

noverflow
Apr 18, 2004, 11:49 PM
one thing they dont have... Im telling you all here now... a 128mb video card is an option on the 1.5ghz guys

arn
Apr 18, 2004, 11:51 PM
Wasn't this "next week" supposed to be the last week .. I mean the week that just passed?

nope.

http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/04/20040414190832.shtml

RJWP
Apr 18, 2004, 11:53 PM
Those specs sound rather conservative to me. Perhaps they will make the offer more attractive with other upgrades besides CPU speed. We'll just have to see.

aussiemac86
Apr 18, 2004, 11:55 PM
Does this mean PowerMac G5 updates on Tuesday :) ?


And dont forget a display update as well!

At least i hope :rolleyes:

slooksterPSV
Apr 18, 2004, 11:56 PM
darn better call my mom who just order a powerbook g4.

Hope she can cancel
Well they when I called they said that if I wanted to I could cancel and change my order, but since I haven't ordered bc of no credit cards yeah.

thehuncamunca
Apr 18, 2004, 11:57 PM
they could really use a better display on the 15 inches with some more pixels
better video cards would be nice too along with some price cuts, other than a slight boast in processor speeds those specs aren't that much better

And dont forget a display update as well!

At least i hope :rolleyes:

DPazdanISU
Apr 18, 2004, 11:58 PM
1GHZ IS NOT ENOUGH. Apple needs to seriously go 64bit powerbooks real soon because this is just not fast enough in my mind. I mean they are great however to convert pc users to mac users is hard when they look at the hardware. I know I know, macs run faster than most pcs even though they have less processor speed however this is not noticeable to pc users. If we want to get a bigger market we need to orient to them- Come on Steve give us a mac that is truly the 25th aniversay mac! :)

slooksterPSV
Apr 19, 2004, 12:00 AM
1GHZ IS NOT ENOUGH. Apple needs to seriously go 64bit powerbooks real soon because this is just not fast enough in my mind. I mean they are great however to convert pc users to mac users is hard when they look at the hardware. I know I know, macs run faster than most pcs even though they have less processor speed however this is not noticeable to pc users. If we want to get a bigger market we need to orient to them- Come on Steve give us a mac that is truly the 25th aniversay mac! :)
The thing that I heard about that is they are having problems integrating the architecture on the notebooks. I don't remember where I read it at, but that is the problem they are having. Thats why they are thinking about coming out with a dual powerbook g4. Can't remember where I found that information at, but I remember it from somewhere.

voicegy
Apr 19, 2004, 12:02 AM
[...]Come on Steve give us a mac that is truly the 25th aniversay mac! :)

Tell me about it!! Well, the year ain't over yet. ;)

fussball
Apr 19, 2004, 12:02 AM
Specs sound like a reasonable update to me, however, I would really like to know what is going down on the vid-card front. I have been holding off for an update on the PB12 until the vid card becomes reasonable. I want a 64MB card, and if there isn't one in it with this update, I'll be kind of upset, as I may wait until the G5 then (which I really don't want to do, because I am impatient like that)

Ozi
Apr 19, 2004, 12:06 AM
If graphics card is so important, maybe its worth investing in a desktop box? Just a thought.

New powerbooks should be getting a 64mb video card, but probably only in the larger screens, not 12". Im about to get a 12" iBook, and that has sod all chance of getting a 64mb card, even though i would love one. :)

DrGruv1
Apr 19, 2004, 12:10 AM
we'll have to see in the morning, but was hoping for a price break...

I guess when the g5 hits, then we'll have a superdrive in the ibooks
or maybe in hte morning! :)

-mike

psylance
Apr 19, 2004, 12:11 AM
The only thing holding me back from buying a Powerbook is the poor resolution. I'm currently using a Fujitsu Lifebook that weighs 3.5 lbs, had a 10.6" screen and yet offers a native resolution of 1280x768 (16:9 ratio). And it's already almost TWO years old! For the life of me I can't understand why Mac, known as the graphic designers system, has such a poor resolution.

The OS X interface is gorgeous and would only benefit from the streamlining that would come from a higher res. Right now everything is way too big and it has a serious impact on functionality.

While processor bump ups are nice (and expected) if you ask me, I think a lot of people would really like to see the graphics kicked up to a much higher resolution.

Here's hoping the official anouncement today brings good news in this department...and I can finally buy my first powerbook. ;)

iomar
Apr 19, 2004, 12:11 AM
Well, I was hoping for something better!

Diatribe
Apr 19, 2004, 12:11 AM
I don't know about these updates. A mere 200-250Mhz per book? Ok the 12" pb gets more, but seriously, where are the backlit keyboard for the 12", where are the 128mb graphics cards? I don't think powerbooks should ship with anything but a minimum of 64mb graphics cards.
If the processor is all they're going to update, then this is going to be a bad update, at least this is what I think. Because this speed bump is not going to make that much of a difference.
I guess we will see. I hope they are wrong.

Gyroscope
Apr 19, 2004, 12:14 AM
1GHZ IS NOT ENOUGH. Apple needs to seriously go 64bit powerbooks real soon because this is just not fast enough in my mind. I mean they are great however to convert pc users to mac users is hard when they look at the hardware. I know I know, macs run faster than most pcs even though they have less processor speed however this is not noticeable to pc users. If we want to get a bigger market we need to orient to them- Come on Steve give us a mac that is truly the 25th aniversay mac! :)

Why would you need 64-bit notebook for???!! Heck, even OS X is not 64-bit at this point in time. This is fine update to power/ibook line if you ask me.

Good job Apple.

ibookin'
Apr 19, 2004, 12:14 AM
Well, at least I don't have to worry about my PowerBook being too far eclipsed by these new ones.

The fact that I don't have to worry about this is a bad thing, IMO.

howard
Apr 19, 2004, 12:16 AM
i hope they allow you to get 1.5 in the 12 inches...

its lame that if you want a smaller computer you have to get a slower one...are the chips actually that different in size???

Gherkin
Apr 19, 2004, 12:19 AM
With the updates coming in, what, 8 hours, I think this was a poor story to put up. We are going to know for sure so soon that it's kind of pointless to debate at this point.

QCassidy352
Apr 19, 2004, 12:21 AM
I don't know about these updates. A mere 200-250Mhz per book? Ok the 12" pb gets more, but seriously, where are the backlit keyboard for the 12", where are the 128mb graphics cards? I don't think powerbooks should ship with anything but a minimum of 64mb graphics cards.
If the processor is all they're going to update, then this is going to be a bad update, at least this is what I think. Because this speed bump is not going to make that much of a difference.
I guess we will see. I hope they are wrong.

a) the 12" may not be able to have a backlit keyboard because of space issues. If you wan a tiny notebook, you have to make sacrifices.

b) it's quite likely that a 1.3-1.5 Ghz G4 could not feed a 128 MB graphics card anyway. You'd be paying for a card that you couldn't really use, just so you could say you had it.

c) 200-250 mhz per notebook is pretty good. 25% for the ibooks, 33% for the low end PBs, 20% for the high end powerbooks? That's a problem? :rolleyes:

Stoffel
Apr 19, 2004, 12:22 AM
Huh, no backlit keyboard for the 12inch?

slooksterPSV
Apr 19, 2004, 12:22 AM
I don't want to go to sleep now, I wanna see if they ever update and show the new iBooks. I'm so excited I can't wait to save up all this money! :D :eek: n e 1 wanna loan me the money? lol jk. Once I do get my iBook, I'm giving my mom this computer - AMD Duron 1.10 GHz, 384MB PC133 RAM, 30GB and 20GB HDD, ATI Radeon 9000 AGP 2x 64MB Video Card FSB of 100 MHz Windows XP Pro... yeah not very exciting huh.
I want an iBook :p 1GHz 512KB L2 Cache 133MHz FSB, 256MB PC2100 (DDR266) RAM, 30GB HDD. Later on I'll upgrade to Max RAM, and Airport. What about hard drives? How easy are those to upgrade? Those specs I found from the AppleInsider link page.

oingoboingo
Apr 19, 2004, 12:22 AM
Hmmm...I'm a bit short of cash since I went back to being a full-time PhD student...I wonder if I could sell my November 2003 1GHz 12" PowerBook (combo drive), pick up one of these new 1GHz 12" iBooks and make a bit of spare cash as well. I notice that from the reported specs in AppleInsider that the G4 chips in the iBooks are now also the ones with the full 512K of L2 cache. I think the current iBook G4s use only 256K, so the CPU speed of the new 1GHz iBook should be the same as the 1GHz one in the 12" PowerBook I'm currently typing this message on.

We'll have to see what the Australian eBay market does after the announcement tomorrow. I might be putting a 'For Sale' notice on my 12" PowerBook... :)

howard
Apr 19, 2004, 12:23 AM
With the updates coming in, what, 8 hours, I think this was a poor story to put up. We are going to know for sure so soon that it's kind of pointless to debate at this point.


i believe apple updates on tuesdays, so theres another whole day yet

~Shard~
Apr 19, 2004, 12:26 AM
1GHZ IS NOT ENOUGH. Apple needs to seriously go 64bit powerbooks real soon because this is just not fast enough in my mind.

Just curious - why in the world would you need a 64-bit PowerBook?! What heavy-duty tasks are you using your PowerBook for?! Do you realize OS X itself isn't even 64-bit yet? Yeesh...

thatwendigo
Apr 19, 2004, 12:27 AM
In order:

1GHZ IS NOT ENOUGH. Apple needs to seriously go 64bit powerbooks real soon because this is just not fast enough in my mind.

The difference between 32 and 64 bit won't be felt by consumers for some time. The major difference is for professional applications and scientific usage, where huge chunks of RAM and certain kinds of math are more prevalent. Also, it doesn't so much speed things up as allow a greater efficiency in those kinds of calculations.

Please stop feeding the 'bigger numbers = better' myth.

I mean they are great however to convert pc users to mac users is hard when they look at the hardware.

Not if you explain the differences to them. If they're only concerned with numbers, send them to buy a Celeron. You can get a really high-clock one for pretty cheap, and it even costs less than your neighbor's P4. Didn't the consumer pull one over on them? :rolleyes:

I know I know, macs run faster than most pcs even though they have less processor speed however this is not noticeable to pc users.

It is if they actually use the machines, instead of listening to marketing hype and the "bigger is better" myth on megahertz. Even Intel is getting bitten on the ass by this one, because their Celeron and P4-M laptops are outselling the vastly superior P-M Centrino systems.

If we want to get a bigger market we need to orient to them- Come on Steve give us a mac that is truly the 25th aniversay mac! :)

Have a little patience. It's four months into the year, and not even to the one-year mark for the 3.0 G5s, so there's no reason to be griping yet. Yes, the bumps could come a little faster (assuming that there isn't some serious issue in the way, which is a bad asumption to make), but that doesn't mean a damn thing if it would hurt Apple to do it right now.

I'd rather have a well-designed system than one that was rushed to get it out as quickly as possible.

QCassidy352
Apr 19, 2004, 12:27 AM
ok, when "macrumors" (i.e. arn) says that he has received independent confirmation... it's a done deal. If arn says these are the specs, then these are the specs. No mention of graphics cards yet. That's a big point.

Re: the high end ibook - is that 1.2 Ghz, or 1.25? Just curious, since there are already 1.25 Ghz chips (current PB 15"). and anyone else see that the high end ibook seems to ship with airport built in? That would be a first for an ibook.

It's not a huge update, but very nice. 33% speed bump on the 12" is totally sweet. (must... resist... urge... to trade in... rev. B 12" PB... ;) )

plinden
Apr 19, 2004, 12:28 AM
1GHZ IS NOT ENOUGH. ... I know I know, macs run faster than most pcs even though they have less processor speed however this is not noticeable to pc users.

Even some of us PC users aren't too hung up on clock speed. I've been thinking about switching to Apple and if these upgrades are true, they just make it more tempting to me.

I've been doing a lot of research recently, and as far as I'm concerned, you can only compare PowerBooks to "premium" centrino-based thin-and-light PC laptops. Sure, you can get a PC laptop for $850, but if you look at performance and weight, you have to compare to something like the IBM T40 (14' screen, 1024x768, no Firewire) which costs about $2400 for a Pentium M 1.6 GHz with otherwise equivalent specs. The Dell equivalent (600m) is $2000 for something that looks and feels like it was made by Fisher-Price (check the Dell website for the "refurbished", ie. returned, 600ms)

To me, an extra couple hundred dollars for the style, construction, and usability is worth every cent.

The only thing preventing me from ordering a PowerBook tomorrow is that my employers have just provided me with an IBM T40, so I have no need for another computer.

thatwendigo
Apr 19, 2004, 12:28 AM
i hope they allow you to get 1.5 in the 12 inches...

its lame that if you want a smaller computer you have to get a slower one...are the chips actually that different in size???

It's likely a heat and power issue, Howard, not a chip size one. As far as I know, all PowerBooks use the same process size for their CPUs.

cjc343
Apr 19, 2004, 12:29 AM
sooooo....


anyone want to buy a 15" PB 1250 mhz 512 ram AE AppleCare (unless transferable) minor scratch 2 mm long on edge of screen some software for >> price of new PB?

nsb3000
Apr 19, 2004, 12:29 AM
One thing that is cool ( Assuming Arn's specs are right) is that Airport is now standard on All powerbooks. It is one more thing to separate them from the ibooks...

oingoboingo
Apr 19, 2004, 12:31 AM
i hope they allow you to get 1.5 in the 12 inches...

its lame that if you want a smaller computer you have to get a slower one...are the chips actually that different in size???

Apple 'needs' to do this to stratify their market, and to make sure there is a reason for people to buy their higher-margin high-end pieces of equipment (like the 17" PowerBook). Often I think market segmentation is the true cause of distinctions like this, rather than true technical reasons like a lot of people suggest. Why wasn't the Rev B 12" offered with a 1.33GHz CPU originally? Why was that CPU only available in the 17" PowerBook? Many people would answer "That's impossible, it has to do with cooling". Yet in this update we see the 12" PowerBook go straight from 1GHz to 1.33GHz. No problems. The new 1.5GHz G4 is available from Motorola, so there is room for the top of the line to expand into.

It's irritating a lot of the time...I'd like to make a PowerBook purchasing choice based purely on form factor...do I want ultra-compact, all-rounder, or desktop replacement? I'd prefer to not also have to trade off CPU speed for the sake of artificial product line-up segmentation.

So that's why I think you won't see 1.5GHz in the 12". I'll bet not because of cooling or power problems, but because Apple wants to have something in their top-of-the-line machine to differentiate it from the low end in something other than screen size. I suppose they have to do it this way, but it's somewhat annoying at the same time.

brhmac
Apr 19, 2004, 12:32 AM
its lame that if you want a smaller computer you have to get a slower one...

If they can put the 1.33 GHz in the 12-inch PB, why can't they put a 1.25 in the 12-inch iBook?

|_wise_|
Apr 19, 2004, 12:34 AM
thatwendigo:

i've very interested in the differences in architecture between Intel x86 chips and the G4 chips. I understand the general ghist (more calculation per second but way less efficient), but would like some more details. Could you expln or point me in the right direction?

Thanks.

thatwendigo
Apr 19, 2004, 12:35 AM
I've been doing a lot of research recently, and as far as I'm concerned, you can only compare PowerBooks to "premium" centrino-based thin-and-light PC laptops. Sure, you can get a PC laptop for $850, but if you look at performance and weight, you have to compare to something like the IBM T40 (14' screen, 1024x768, no Firewire) which costs about $2400 for a Pentium M 1.6 GHz with otherwise equivalent specs. The Dell equivalent (600m) is $2000 for something that looks and feels like it was made by Fisher-Price (check the Dell website for the "refurbished", ie. returned, 600ms)

To me, an extra couple hundred dollars for the style, construction, and usability is worth every cent.

I think I love you, but what am I so afraid of...

Er, sorry. I'm just glad to see someone else pointing out the quality-of-build issues that you face in a lot of the other side of the fence. I also like that at least one of your manufacturers turns a profit on their sales, which is something that a lot of people leave out of their comparisons. In order to fairly price with Apple, you have to take into account just how much of their own R&D they have to do, along with the extra costs of the PowerPC architecture, and the other market concerns that face them (like short-run manufacturing).

The only thing preventing me from ordering a PowerBook tomorrow is that my employers have just provided me with an IBM T40, so I have no need for another computer.

I actually was looking around at Centrino systems not too long ago, to get an idea of just what the current lineup is looking like for PC users. Some of them are halfway decent, but they don't have my most important qualification - OS X.

chasingapple
Apr 19, 2004, 12:38 AM
I think I love you, but what am I so afraid of...

Er, sorry. I'm just glad to see someone else pointing out the quality-of-build issues that you face in a lot of the other side of the fence. I also like that at least one of your manufacturers turns a profit on their sales, which is something that a lot of people leave out of their comparisons. In order to fairly price with Apple, you have to take into account just how much of their own R&D they have to do, along with the extra costs of the PowerPC architecture, and the other market concerns that face them (like short-run manufacturing).



I actually was looking around at Centrino systems not too long ago, to get an idea of just what the current lineup is looking like for PC users. Some of them are halfway decent, but they don't have my most important qualification - OS X.

Im Pro Apple all the way but if I were in the market for a Centrino notebook this would be my current pick...

http://www.sagernotebook.com/pages/notebooks/product.cfm?ProductType=3760

Gherkin
Apr 19, 2004, 12:39 AM
i believe apple updates on tuesdays, so theres another whole day yet

That's what I thought, but most people seem to think they are coming tomorrow morning (and I'm pretty sure that Monday was previously rumored).

nsb3000
Apr 19, 2004, 12:40 AM
If they can put the 1.33 GHz in the 12-inch PB, why can't they put a 1.25 in the 12-inch iBook?

This is my biggest problem. I hate the 12" ibooks. They are lame. Perhaps, if you got some extra screen real-estate for the added size, they would be worth it. But you don't. So for people like me who love the 12" form factor, why can't I get a 1.25 gigahertz processor. It is not like the powerbooks where bigger means more powerful (Like, who else is going to want a 17" powerbooks except someone doing video editing in the filed or something...the only people who are going to want a 14" ibook are people with strained eyes..)

My two cents..

gop007
Apr 19, 2004, 12:40 AM
This update looks fairly normal given that we are still dealing with Motorolla and the G4 chips. Sales for existing portables were much stronger that I would have thought given a lack of updates. With these new machines we should see an uptick in sales of PowerBooks and especially iBooks.

I just want a new G5 desktop to keep my Dual 1.8 G5 company. Waiting until June is killing me.

AndrewMT
Apr 19, 2004, 12:41 AM
I, for one, am not going to buy another powerbook until a new cooling solution is used. I felt like I had a hot pizza right from the oven on my lap when I was using my ti400. And that was only 400mhz! Now we are talking 1.3 to 1.5Ghz!?? I'm hoping that the rumors regarding Apple's research into new and innovative cooling techniques are true. If they are, they will most likely be utilized when the powerbook form factor is revised for the G5 PBs.

ChrisH3677
Apr 19, 2004, 12:41 AM
I can't believe Apple would make such minor upgrades to the iBook at this stage. I'm still hoping for more than this rumor... like a SuperDrive, 512MB RAM.. and one day... 15" screen

brhmac
Apr 19, 2004, 12:42 AM
Consider the $4.5 billion CASH Apple has sitting in the bank.

Good for Apple. But where do you think that money came from?

Apple customers.

Doesn't matter how much Apple spends on R&D vs. what you think Dell or any other company spends on R&D. The bottom line is simple: Even with Apple's R&D investment, the company has managed to pile away $4.5 billion -- all the while being more expensive $ to $ than any computer on the market.

Does anyone who makes this argument even know what Dell, for example, pays on R&D?

AndrewMT
Apr 19, 2004, 12:45 AM
Im Pro Apple all the way but if I were in the market for a Centrino notebook this would be my current pick...

http://www.sagernotebook.com/pages/notebooks/product.cfm?ProductType=3760

Damn that thing is ugly. I think I will wait for G5 PBs and go for a Sony TR3 sub-notebook right now.

TR3 (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=fDHOI6GOLhzOdeENGxbEKO6BSWvxBRIU51U=?CategoryName=cpu_VAIONotebookComputers_TRSeries&ProductSKU=PCGTR3AP1&Dept=cpu)

jnasato
Apr 19, 2004, 12:46 AM
This time, it feels like a lot of people are actually expecting updated iBooks and PowerBooks tomorrow/later today, as the recent other updates have been nice. I just hope Apple surprises us with something better than expected, or else there'll be a long thread of replies along the lines of, "A modest speed bump? APPLE SUCKS!"

I've got my fingers crossed.

AndrewMT
Apr 19, 2004, 12:48 AM
Consider the $4.5 billion CASH Apple has sitting in the bank.

Good for Apple. But where do you think that money came from?

Apple customers.

Doesn't matter how much Apple spends on R&D vs. what you think Dell or any other company spends on R&D. The bottom line is simple: Even with Apple's R&D investment, the company has managed to pile away $4.5 billion -- all the while being more expensive $ to $ than any computer on the market.

Does anyone who makes this argument even know what Dell, for example, pays on R&D?

Duh! Those witty Dell interns do all their R&D for free. I just love those guys.

porovaara
Apr 19, 2004, 12:49 AM
b) it's quite likely that a 1.3-1.5 Ghz G4 could not feed a 128 MB graphics card anyway. You'd be paying for a card that you couldn't really use, just so you could say you had it.

The graphics bus has nothing to do with cpu speed. My alBook ends up starved for memory on the 64meg card quite often when using dual displays. In addition exposé chews through video memory like crazy.

In other words any recent mac could benefit from a video card with lots of memory.

brhmac
Apr 19, 2004, 12:49 AM
So for people like me who love the 12" form factor, why can't I get a 1.25 gigahertz processor. It is not like the powerbooks where bigger means more powerful (Like, who else is going to want a 17" powerbooks except someone doing video editing in the filed or something...the only people who are going to want a 14" ibook are people with strained eyes..)

Exactly. There is no real differentiation between the 12-inch iBook and the 14-inch iBook other than the processor. Why force someone to buy a 14-inch model just to get the faster processor?

Isn't the answer to charge a premium for the processor? Pricing differentiation would be simple: Make the 12-inch iBook with the 1.25 Ghz the same price as the 14-inch iBook with the 1.25 Ghz. Offer the 1 Ghz iBook at a lower price.

D'uh!

thatwendigo
Apr 19, 2004, 12:49 AM
Often I think market segmentation is the true cause of distinctions like this, rather than true technical reasons like a lot of people suggest.

Perhaps, and perhaps not. Maybe the newer machines take advantage of better features that weren't available, like firmware/ROM revisions that would run the system cooler. It's pretty openly accepted at this point that the eMacs were chipped with a PowerPC that could reach 1.3 ghz, but the heat issues with the enclosed space and the addition of a Superdrive eroded system performance. In the case of the 12" powerbook, they had to make it thicker than the other laptops just to fit everything in and keep it cool.

Is cooling and tech really not a factor? Almost certainly not. Is stratification a factor? Probably so. We won't likely know how much of either, though, unless one of us not only works for the Apple hardware department, but also doesn't mind going to jail for talking about it. :D

It's irritating a lot of the time...I'd like to make a PowerBook purchasing choice based purely on form factor...do I want ultra-compact, all-rounder, or desktop replacement? I'd prefer to not also have to trade off CPU speed for the sake of artificial product line-up segmentation.

Apple's not set up to do this, though, unlike the really big OEMs, because they don't have the volume to do complete pick-and-choose without taking serious hits on components that languish. That's also assuming that you're right about the motivation, incidentally, which I don't readily concede.

I'll bet not because of cooling or power problems, but because Apple wants to have something in their top-of-the-line machine to differentiate it from the low end in something other than screen size. I suppose they have to do it this way, but it's somewhat annoying at the same time.

Bet away.

i've very interested in the differences in architecture between Intel x86 chips and the G4 chips. I understand the general ghist (more calculation per second but way less efficient), but would like some more details. Could you expln or point me in the right direction?

Thanks.

Ars Technica compares the P4 to the MPC 7450 (G4+) (http://arstechnica.com/cpu/01q2/p4andg4e/p4andg4e-1.html) and continues here. (http://arstechnica.com/cpu/01q4/p4andg4e2/p4andg4e2-1.html) You might want to read about the 970 (http://arstechnica.com/cpu/02q2/ppc970/ppc970-1.html), which they talk about more than once. (http://arstechnica.com/cpu/03q1/ppc970/ppc970-0.html)

brhmac
Apr 19, 2004, 12:51 AM
Damn that thing is ugly. I think I will wait for G5 PBs and go for a Sony TR3 sub-notebook right now.

TR3 (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=fDHOI6GOLhzOdeENGxbEKO6BSWvxBRIU51U=?CategoryName=cpu_VAIONotebookComputers_TRSeries&ProductSKU=PCGTR3AP1&Dept=cpu)

How? It looks almost like a PB clone.

I know this is a Mac board, but at least be honest.

Spades
Apr 19, 2004, 12:51 AM
The width of the 15" screen is slightly less than the width of a 4:3 17" monitor. I do not know of any 17" LCDs that do more than 1280x1024, so I'm not sure why you expect a wide-screen LCD that's the same width to have a higher horizontal resolution. Meanwhile, the 17" Powerbook already supports a higher resolution; 1440x900. I have seen 1600x1200 on 17" CRT monitors, and I can't imagine running that all the time. It's too small. You need a 19" monitor at least to run that high. All I can guess is that you're referring to the 12", but why would you do graphic design on a screen that small?

The only thing holding me back from buying a Powerbook is the poor resolution. I'm currently using a Fujitsu Lifebook that weighs 3.5 lbs, had a 10.6" screen and yet offers a native resolution of 1280x768 (16:9 ratio). And it's already almost TWO years old! For the life of me I can't understand why Mac, known as the graphic designers system, has such a poor resolution.

iGuy
Apr 19, 2004, 12:54 AM
We'd all like a PB with quad 3GHz G5s, a large, hi res screen, and a full size keyboard. Naturally it would all fold up to the size of a PalmPilot.

I think that if Apple could put a more powerful processor in the 12" they would and just like iPod mini, it would become the high margin machine.

It's late and I may not be expressing myself very well. What I'm trying to say is that just like the iPod mini is priced at a premium because of its smaller size, a 12" PB that is similar in power and features to a 17" PB would command a higher price simply because of its smaller size.

And I think customers would pay for it. So the lesser features of the 12" are not due to marketing considerations but technical ones.

I really should write these things when I'm awake. I'm sure everyone will let me know if I'm not making any sense. :)

~iGuy

macdong
Apr 19, 2004, 12:55 AM
i've got only this much to say:

no G5 in PB, no buy.

still, my dead line of must-buy is september.
so i'll wait for WWDC and see if a PB will pop up.
otherwise iBook will do just fine.

goof_ball
Apr 19, 2004, 12:56 AM
If Apple is having problems with getting the G5s (technically or supply) into powerbooks, I don't think anyone should be surprised by the minor speed increases.

I think these will be very good updates if all the models get improved screens. If not, kinda disappointing considering how long it has been since the last update. These would have been ok if they had been release 3 or 4 months ago.

spaceballl
Apr 19, 2004, 12:57 AM
I sure hope they solder all 256 onto the motherboard this time. Considering that they now have 512k cache G4s, the extra RAM being soldered on looks likely.
-Kevin

baby duck monge
Apr 19, 2004, 01:08 AM
the more similar the basic specs of the different versions in each line are, the better. moving in the direction of differentiation more by add-ons (superdrive) and special features (backlit keyboards) than by raw power (processor) should allow consumers to get the machine they want more than being forced into unnecessarily karge upgrades for one small reason or another. especially if they can keep increasing the speeds of machines as faster processors become available/workable.

chasingapple
Apr 19, 2004, 01:10 AM
How? It looks almost like a PB clone.

I know this is a Mac board, but at least be honest.

That was my thought as well, I actually like the look of it, and it does seem very thin and liteweight. Im not to hip on that Sony portable, looks very fat, hehe. But it also looks small overall which is nice. It really is too bad M$ does not have a better operating system out now, those Pentium-M based notebooks really are pretty good, for a Wintendo!

But I could never leave Apple or my Mac :D

cb911
Apr 19, 2004, 01:11 AM
aahhh!! my new PowerBook soon to be out-done by the low-end PowerBooks! :eek:

oh well, it'll be good to see 1.5GHz PowerBooks out there, and a $100 price drop would be even better!! :D

well this just makes waiting for the G5 PowerBooks too much. if the high-end G4 PowerBooks are going to be 1.5GHz... the G5 PowerBooks will have to be smokin! :D oh yeah!! :D

nsb3000
Apr 19, 2004, 01:13 AM
i've got only this much to say:

no G5 in PB, no buy.

still, my dead line of must-buy is september.
so i'll wait for WWDC and see if a PB will pop up.
otherwise iBook will do just fine.

I think this means we are waiting till at least MWSF for G5 powerbooks..

mateybob
Apr 19, 2004, 01:14 AM
this update leaves apple completely uncompetetive with the pc market... for example:

apple 15" powerbook

1.33GHz /256MB DDR/60GB/DVD-ROM/CD-RW Combo drive/Gig Enet/56K/Bluetooth/AirPort Extreme

price AUS$3499 (assuming prices stay the same - which it seems they will)

lg ls50-1 15" laptop

1.4ghz centrino/256MB DDR/40GB/DVD-ROM/CD-RW/Enet/56k/(11b standard)

price AUS$1999 (http://cworld.com.au/)

im sorry but theres now way to justify AUS$1500 price difference... and dont talk to me about "build quality" because ive owned 3 mac and 3 pcs and i had to replace 3cd drives, 2 keyboards and a mouse on the macs and never had anything break on the pcs... (except windows which was just broken to start with ;p)
ive been holding off on buying a laptop till apple updated but now ill just go pc (unless they do lower prices)...

i mean whyd they increase the clock speed anyway? considering the g4 fsb i doubt it offers any real performance boost... offers plenty of extra heat and reduced battery life though... :rolleyes:

what apple should have done was update PRICES not useless specs...

(i dont think the situation in the us is as bad but apple prices here in aus are a joke)

iLilana
Apr 19, 2004, 01:16 AM
Why would you need 64-bit notebook for???!! Heck, even OS X is not 64-bit at this point in time. This is fine update to power/ibook line if you ask me.

Good job Apple.

I thought Panther was 64 bit.

thatwendigo
Apr 19, 2004, 01:16 AM
Consider the $4.5 billion CASH Apple has sitting in the bank.

...blah blah blah....

Doesn't matter how much Apple spends on R&D vs. what you think Dell or any other company spends on R&D. The bottom line is simple: Even with Apple's R&D investment, the company has managed to pile away $4.5 billion -- all the while being more expensive $ to $ than any computer on the market.

Quite a bit of which is interest on investments, actually. Regardless, we don't know what purpose that money is being saved against, what use it might be put to, or anything else, other than what Apple says and releases. Do you think that things like Xsan and Motion come from nowhere?

Does anyone who makes this argument even know what Dell, for example, pays on R&D?

For Fiscal year 2004, Dell had $19 billion in current assets, almost $11 billion in current liability, which comes out to around $8 billion in the bank, with a total long term debt of $508 million. They don't break down their operating costs to specific sections, but the overall amount allocated to their entire operation was $3.4 billion.

Make of that what you will.

chasingapple
Apr 19, 2004, 01:16 AM
Honestly for someone like me I would still be rather happy with a G4 500Mhz book with a 14" screen, but then again I dont do heavy CPU intensive things, just iLife and web stuff. I dont game on my Mac, that's what my GC, XBOX, and PS2 are for. But a 1Ghz 12" iBook sounds sweet, and should last a very long time for the average person / student that uses it.

mattster16
Apr 19, 2004, 01:20 AM
I actually just ordered a new 15" Superdrive PB on Saturday. I am calling first thing in the morning (if the updates take effect then) to upgrade. At least I had semi good timing and didn't order earlier. (I custom configured the order with 1 memory module so if they shipped it and then upgraded I'd be screwed, at least according to their policies). I am completely new to macs and have never used one. I was playing with a friends tibook and I loved it. It's going to be my new baby. Should I upgrade to a 128MB graphics card if it's available? I mean the laptop is going down $100 so it should be about equal to what I am already spending. I am just really excited to get this thing!

mattster16
Apr 19, 2004, 01:22 AM
I just wanted to let everyone know that when checking my current G4 PB order I noticed Apple's online store has been down for updates since about 10 o'clock central time. Could this be them updating the laptops on their online store?

AndrewMT
Apr 19, 2004, 01:23 AM
How? It looks almost like a PB clone.

I know this is a Mac board, but at least be honest.

It looks like a PB clone experiment gone wrong that is kept in the attic on a diet of fish heads. The keyboard and speaker layout is the same, and yes the laptop is a rectangle, but that is where the similarities end.

Sorry I'm off topic guys but this guy said I wasn't being honest. To be honest, you need your vision checked.

http://www.sagernotebook.com/media/small_notebook_jpgs/3760sm.gif

mateybob
Apr 19, 2004, 01:23 AM
Should I upgrade to a 128MB graphics card if it's available? I mean the laptop is going down $100 so it should be about equal to what I am already spending. I am just really excited to get this thing!

im not sure youre really ever getting value for money buying a graphics card for a mac considering theres probably one decent game released a year... (ignore this if you were planning on using it for something other than games)

mattster16
Apr 19, 2004, 01:25 AM
im not sure youre really ever getting value for money buying a graphics card for a mac considering theres probably one decent game released a year... (ignore this if you were planning on using it for something other than games)

Well, I probably wouldn't do any gaming, but I am one of those people who has to have the highest model of anything I am buying (cars, computers, etc.) so I will probably end up getting it anyways. haha

Zaty
Apr 19, 2004, 01:26 AM
One important question still remains to be answered: What graphic chips will the new models have?

All in all, it's a nice update but there are still two negative points:

30 GB HD on 12" iBook (why can't they throw in a 40 GB disk?)
no BT built in on iBooks.

As for those who can't understand why Apple doesn't put a 1.25 GHz processor into the 12" iBook. It's quite simple, running at 1.25 GHz, the iBook's performance would be too close to the 12" PBs performance and would therefore hurt sales of the PB. Secondly, but this is only speculation, there is a significant difference between the iBooks and the PBs. Because of the alu case, the PB has a better heat disipation than the iBooks. So, a 1.25 GHz might be too hot for the iBook, too.

iLilana
Apr 19, 2004, 01:29 AM
I would not mind horribly if the PB was a little thicker to accomodateheat issues if they would just put in a G5. An acceptable sacrifice for superior performance. They did it with the first gen g5 towers. That heat sink must break some size record.

The iBook should be the G4 1.3 & 1.5 and PB's should be 1 & 1.3 Ghz G5. does that sound bad?

thatwendigo
Apr 19, 2004, 01:29 AM
this update leaves apple completely uncompetetive with the pc market... for example:

apple 15" powerbook

1.33GHz /256MB DDR/60GB/DVD-ROM/CD-RW Combo drive/Gig Enet/56K/Bluetooth/AirPort Extreme

price AUS$3499 (assuming prices stay the same - which it seems they will)

Apple Australia is notorious for pricing issues, it would seem. They're not a good comparison.

lg ls50-1 15" laptop

1.4ghz centrino/256MB DDR/40GB/DVD-ROM/CD-RW/Enet/56k/(11b standard)

price AUS$1999 (http://cworld.com.au/)

Integrated graphics on the Centrino, no gigabit ethernet, no OS X, no iLife, a processor that may or may not be better (depending on task), and very little information available on the company's site. All in all, I'm not impressed, and it looks like you get what you pay for.

im sorry but theres now way to justify AUS$1500 price difference... and dont talk to me about "build quality" because ive owned 3 mac and 3 pcs and i had to replace 3cd drives, 2 keyboards and a mouse on the macs and never had anything break on the pcs... (except windows which was just broken to start with ;p)

The only keyboard problem I ever had was my fault - I spilled something on it. The rest of my hardware issues have been ridiculously minor and after many years of use.

what apple should have done was update PRICES not useless specs...

Maybe they can't really bump the prices all that much, so they instead followed the standard computer industry practice of offering newer machines with more advanced parts, while keeping prices about the same.

thatwendigo
Apr 19, 2004, 01:31 AM
Im Pro Apple all the way but if I were in the market for a Centrino notebook this would be my current pick...

http://www.sagernotebook.com/pages/notebooks/product.cfm?ProductType=3760

Ewww.

They're on PC2100 RAM, 2x DVD-Rs, and they run XP Home. No thanks.

Not to mention ugly!

psylance
Apr 19, 2004, 01:33 AM
Spade was saying the highest res he has seen on a laptop is 1280x1024. That's ancient. For the last three years I've seen 17" and even 15" with 1600x1200. If you want to see some really sexy non-Mac laptops (gasp!-do such things exist?!) check out:

http://www.go-l.com/laptops/index.htm

The 15" New Yorker that model that is about to be released is going to have a maximum 1920x1200 resolution. Ouch.

mateybob
Apr 19, 2004, 01:34 AM
I would not mind horribly if the PB was a little thicker to accomodateheat issues if they would just put in a G5. An acceptable sacrifice for superior performance. They did it with the first gen g5 towers. That heat sink must break some size record.

The iBook should be the G4 1.3 & 1.5 and PB's should be 1 & 1.3 Ghz G5. does that sound bad?

yes great idea.. if you want your laptops to be g5 tower sized :rolleyes:

why would you want those clock speeds in an ibook? so you can have less battery life with no noticable performance increase?

clock speed is the LEAST IMPORTANT SPEC... i wish the public would start realising it... all the manafacturers do but of course they still have to accomodate for the 99% of the market you will buy whatever has the most mhz or go out of business...

Diatribe
Apr 19, 2004, 01:37 AM
a) the 12" may not be able to have a backlit keyboard because of space issues. If you wan a tiny notebook, you have to make sacrifices.

b) it's quite likely that a 1.3-1.5 Ghz G4 could not feed a 128 MB graphics card anyway. You'd be paying for a card that you couldn't really use, just so you could say you had it.

c) 200-250 mhz per notebook is pretty good. 25% for the ibooks, 33% for the low end PBs, 20% for the high end powerbooks? That's a problem? :rolleyes:

a) But I wantoo... but, but... I wantoo :D

b) As someone pointed out, processor speed has little to do with the graphics card. And it's a powerbook for crying out loud, it should have the best card available.

c) Is it really going to make a difference to a lot of people? No. It isn't. To some that do photo editing etc. it will, but to others?

Now if they would drop the price by about a hundred $ per book... that would be a worthy upgrade.

Besides, how hot is the 12" pb going to be? :eek: It is a freaking oven at 1Ghz already... and now at 1.3? Sheesh, I will be able to get rid of my stove if I buy one I guess. :D

Spazmodius
Apr 19, 2004, 01:40 AM
So...what's the big frickin' deal? Is the G4 FSB still pinned at 167Mhz? If so, this exceedingly incremental increase in speed is even less than what it looks like. I suppose the adjustable clock speed will help mitigate the excess battery suck and heat dissipation, but if people think they're getting 20% more speed out of these, dream on. It's cripple-ware, I'm afraid, given the architecture.

Damn, I was hoping for a G5 in a PB, and maybe a 750vx in and iBook. Perhaps, as some have suggested, the former won't make it's way to us until xmas, and the latter maybe never. Makes me wonder...once the PB goes G5 (hopefully before the end of this year), what will there be left for the iBook? The 1.5Mhz G4? Bleh.

mateybob
Apr 19, 2004, 01:40 AM
Integrated graphics on the Centrino, no gigabit ethernet, no OS X, no iLife, a processor that may or may not be better (depending on task), and very little information available on the company's site. All in all, I'm not impressed, and it looks like you get what you pay for.


obviously the powerbook is a slightly superior machine... but i mean ill take $AUS1500 over osx, ilife and gb ethernet anyday... even if i went to america and to buy a powerbook the difference is somethink like AUS$700 (although i admit thats verging on reasonable pricing)...
i have a friend who bought that exact lg model last month its a quality machine...

el_aarono
Apr 19, 2004, 01:43 AM
One thing that is cool ( Assuming Arn's specs are right) is that Airport is now standard on All powerbooks. It is one more thing to separate them from the ibooks...

Yeah, I guess that is nice to have one more difference, but it would be even nicer if the difference between the pro and consumer laptop line was as dramatic as it is in the desktop line. I mean, a Powermac G5 is vastly superior to an iMac or eMac, but a Powerbook G4 is only slightly superior to an iBook G4. In my opinion the only reason to go for the Powerbook is the wide screen. Otherwise, they are just over-priced iBooks dressed in Aluminum. Kind of sad. :(


edit: punctuation

Wuddel
Apr 19, 2004, 01:44 AM
Definitely partly wrong. Apple never ever would ship 12"-PowerBooks with an old Airport Slot again.

Diatribe
Apr 19, 2004, 01:46 AM
Definitely partly wrong. Apple never ever would ship 12"-PowerBooks with an old Airport Slot again.


Huh?

brhmac
Apr 19, 2004, 01:48 AM
It looks like a PB clone experiment gone wrong that is kept in the attic on a diet of fish heads. The keyboard and speaker layout is the same, and yes the laptop is a rectangle, but that is where the similarities end.

Sorry I'm off topic guys but this guy said I wasn't being honest. To be honest, you need your vision checked.

My vision is fine, thank you. Here are the two to compare.

Ja Di ksw
Apr 19, 2004, 01:48 AM
Spade was saying the highest res he has seen on a laptop is 1280x1024. That's ancient. For the last three years I've seen 17" and even 15" with 1600x1200. If you want to see some really sexy non-Mac laptops (gasp!-do such things exist?!) check out:

http://www.go-l.com/laptops/index.htm

The 15" New Yorker that model that is about to be released is going to have a maximum 1920x1200 resolution. Ouch.

Personally, I like the cabriolet that's coming out, with the screen you can move like some PDA's. I'm still holding out for a pb, though. I want the G5, I do (sorry to all who are sick of hearing that), but I think I'm going to go with this new G4

mateybob
Apr 19, 2004, 01:52 AM
heres the lg i was talking about... a lot of pcs are starting to look as good as the powerbooks these days...
http://cworld.com.au/images_php/114712.jpg

Wuddel
Apr 19, 2004, 01:53 AM
PowerBook G4 (12.1"TFT/1.33GHz/512K L2 /256MB/60GB/DVD-R/CD-RW SuperDrive/Enet/56K/AirPort/Bluetooth)
PowerBook G4 (15.2"TFT/1.33GHz /256MB/60GB/DVD-ROM/CD-RW Combo drive/Gig Enet/56K/Bluetooth/AirPort Extreme)

According to the rumor they would ship again old Airport-cards/slots for 12". I don't think so.

I didn't expected more, since I didn't expected a PowerBook G5. I think we will see it this summer-fall.

Diatribe
Apr 19, 2004, 01:55 AM
According to the rumor they would ship again old Airport-cards/slots for 12". I don't think so.

I didn't expected more, since I didn't expected a PowerBook G5. I think we will see it this summer-fall.

Ah, sorry didn't see that. I think that's a mistake though, you're right.

Apple //e
Apr 19, 2004, 01:56 AM
Ewww.

They're on PC2100 RAM, 2x DVD-Rs, and they run XP Home. No thanks.

Not to mention ugly!

yeah, the best pc laptops are ibms, second to none. check out the t41p. nice, but expensive

btw, isnt ddr on g4s more of a marketing gimmick?

Gherkin
Apr 19, 2004, 02:02 AM
wait, so Airport Extreme is going to be built into the new Powerbooks? If so, that would essentially be a $100 price drop for most people.

aftk2
Apr 19, 2004, 02:03 AM
check out:

http://www.go-l.com/laptops/index.htm

Heh, and while you're there, you can check out their Producer model (http://www.go-l.com/laptops/producer/features/index.htm), which, among other dubious specs, sports the capability for a supposed 4 internal hard drives. In a laptop.

Liebermann is bunk. At best, they're rebadged, rebranded knockoffs of other products (Sager notebooks, etc...). At worst, their specs and product descriptions are completely fabricated. Their website design style is pretty nice, though...heh, however...I think I may have seen it somewhere before (http://www.apple.com).

VicMacs
Apr 19, 2004, 02:20 AM
what if they made a powerbook g5 and priced it at 10 thosand dollars... that would be cool... how many would they sell?

ibooks are very attractive for the price....

Apple //e
Apr 19, 2004, 02:29 AM
what if they made a powerbook g5 and priced it at 10 thosand dollars... that would be cool... how many would they sell?

ibooks are very attractive for the price....

whats so cool about suicide?

warcraftmaster
Apr 19, 2004, 02:30 AM
Heh, and while you're there, you can check out their Producer model (http://www.go-l.com/laptops/producer/features/index.htm), which, among other dubious specs, sports the capability for a supposed 4 internal hard drives. In a laptop.

Liebermann is bunk. At best, they're rebadged, rebranded knockoffs of other products (Sager notebooks, etc...). At worst, their specs and product descriptions are completely fabricated. Their website design style is pretty nice, though...heh, however...I think I may have seen it somewhere before (http://www.apple.com).



holy that site looks likes apples :eek: apple must sue them now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :p

Gyroscope
Apr 19, 2004, 02:32 AM
I thought Panther was 64 bit.

Unfortunately it is not. Panther is still 32-bit operating system. However it has some 64-bit extension code in its math libraries for G5 CPU optimisations.
If Panther was pure 64-bit OS,you d be able to run it only on G5. :)

ITR 81
Apr 19, 2004, 02:42 AM
Unfortunately it is not. Panther is still 32-bit operating system. However it has some 64-bit extension code in its math libraries for G5 CPU optimisations.
If Panther was pure 64-bit OS,you d be able to run it only on G5. :)

We won't see a 64bit OS until we see G5's across the entire range of Macs.
Which mean it will be around 2006 before that happens.

DGFan
Apr 19, 2004, 02:43 AM
People are getting overly excited about the screen resolution. Higher resolution != higher quality. A 1024x768 from today is much better than a 1024x768 screen from 5 years ago.

An analogy would be in digital photography. Compare the quality of an image coming out of the Canon 1D (4 MP) to a Sony DSC-F828 (8 MP) and it's not even close - the Canon wins. Number of pixels doesn't equate to good-looking or easy viewing.

I run my 21" Viewsonic monitor at 1280x1024. It looks fine! It's not like my whole desktop is pixelated.
:rolleyes:

Gherkin
Apr 19, 2004, 02:43 AM
We won't see a 64bit OS until we see G5's across the entire range of Macs.
Which mean it will be around 2006 before that happens.

Or they could release two different versions of whatever OS they are on. No sense in "waiting for everyone else" if there are already 64-bit computers available.

FinnishFlash
Apr 19, 2004, 02:48 AM
Heh, and while you're there, you can check out their Producer model (http://www.go-l.com/laptops/producer/features/index.htm), which, among other dubious specs, sports the capability for a supposed 4 internal hard drives. In a laptop
Why not? Leave out the optical drive and you can fit two harddrives in its place.

tjwett
Apr 19, 2004, 02:49 AM
ugh, i better sell my Rev A 12" while it's still worth something and get me an iBook.

Awimoway
Apr 19, 2004, 02:49 AM
ThinkSecret (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/aprillaptops.html) has updated. They match MacRumor's forecast and add the little detail that the 17" PB will be discounted $200 from its current price.

Also, I see no indication that the store site is down. FWIW.

aswitcher
Apr 19, 2004, 02:55 AM
ThinkSecret (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/aprillaptops.html) has updated. They match MacRumor's forecast and add the little detail that the 17" PB will be discounted $200 from its current price.

Also, I see no indication that the store site is down. FWIW.

Good to see TS getting some more data. So slight price drop at the high end. None to suprising given they don't appear to be getting much of an update if AppleInsider's rumor is right...

Now if Apple Australia does a decent exchange rate etc I'll be happy.

alexandero
Apr 19, 2004, 02:59 AM
2 simple reasons why this PB Upgrade is a bad deal:

Speed:
A G4 1.5 GHz is probably more than enough for most of us in 2004 - but the average lifespan of a laptop is 3 years, and therefor a now purchased laptop has to be able to run software that is released in 2005/2006. By then we're talking of OSX 10.5, fully 64bit, and probably lots of programs that need power.
E.g. the average Apple laptop in 2001 (3 years ago) had a G3/G4 of 500MHz. Have you ever tried running Keynote, iPhoto, iMovie or anything similar on such a laptop? Forget it. Even the Finder is slow as these old laptops don't even support Quartz Extreme.

Screen Resolution:
One may not compare the LCD resolution between standalone LCD-displays and laptops: the average distance from the eyes to a laptop-display is 35cm, while a display used with desktop has a distance of 50-60cm. The resolution on laptop-LCDs therefor has to be higher.
Additionally, a major part of Mac-users work in the creative industry (graphics, audio, video,...) and have higher needs than the average MS Office user. E.g. when designing the layout of a website, you need 1024x768 for its normal appearance plus space around it for all the Photoshop palettes. A width of 1280px is the absolute minimum, and everything else than convenient and satisfying.
As the rendering system of OSX (Quartz) is able to scale everything very well, OSX is better than XP for supporting higher screen resolutions. And as 1400x900 on a high quality 15" PC laptop is standard, why not on a Mac as well?

People, now please don't be so stupid and tell me to go out and buy a G5 PowerMac. I cannot hear arguments as "who needs speed on a laptop" anymore. For the following reason: laptops are not any longer a secondary computer for work on the way, but are more and more desktop replacements. Lets call the target customers of Apple PowerBooks creative urban professionals. These are people that work 60 hrs a week, and not only at one single place, but in the own office as well as some at customers place, at home and in hotels. The alternative is to purchase at least 2 PowerMacs (office&home) *plus* a PowerBook for the other work, and then be forced to synchronize all data between these computers (the rumored 'home on ipod' feature).

Apple is not stupid, and they know these facts as well. The G5 PB might not be ready before september, and therefor Apple had to make a modest speed bump for its notebooks. Enough for the people who urgenty need a new laptop and resist to buy one with the specs of september '03, but introduced rather silent, holding off with all the new features of the G5 PB for a major release later this year.

Gyroscope
Apr 19, 2004, 02:59 AM
We won't see a 64bit OS until we see G5's across the entire range of Macs.
Which mean it will be around 2006 before that happens.

Even then, they may decide to go down the road of maintaining two installation binaries one 32-bit and one 64-bit. Makes sense right now,but who knows maybe by 2006 there will be some killer new desktop apps around that can benefit greatly from 64-bit OS. Personally,I have no benefit and cannot see one (for tasks i'm using my mac for) from 64-bit OS. 64-extensions for specific computations are nice,but 64-bit OS may be an overkill.

dontmatter
Apr 19, 2004, 03:02 AM
Spade was saying the highest res he has seen on a laptop is 1280x1024. That's ancient. For the last three years I've seen 17" and even 15" with 1600x1200. If you want to see some really sexy non-Mac laptops (gasp!-do such things exist?!) check out:

http://www.go-l.com/laptops/index.htm

The 15" New Yorker that model that is about to be released is going to have a maximum 1920x1200 resolution. Ouch.

yeah, those are pretty damned sexy, cases and features, (producer case=ugly, and there are some insane features, like 2 optical bays and 4 HD spots on the producer, and on the 17 in one stuff like a subwoofer and built in video camra). But, did you look at all the specs? what about stuff you'd use, like the hard drives that COME with it, or airport, bluetooth, optical drives, thickness and weight (and they give weight w/o battery or optical drive), and most of all, PRICE!!! Good lord, if these things ran OS X and PB's ran windows....I might have to go for windows.

But, besides PC bashing, I think it's a great thing about computers, that while apple is the only big computer maker that really innovates and pushes the envelope with techonology, the PC market is so broad that there's always a high end PC with insanely cool tech stuff, and the comptetition is good for apple. I think you can probably get a PC that beats apples in any single way (except OS) be it price, graphics, cool features, light weight on portables, raw speed.... but I don't think there's really anything that gives you competition in everything...there's always something that sucks (in addition to windoze).

Now, if only apple had the market share to bust the software argument...

CmdrLaForge
Apr 19, 2004, 03:04 AM
I really hope that they offer a superdrive for the iBooks as BTO. Today even the cheapest PC notebooks come with a DVD burner. Its a must ! For iBooks as well.
For all models !

Cheers

thatwendigo
Apr 19, 2004, 03:07 AM
Heh, and while you're there, you can check out their Producer model (http://www.go-l.com/laptops/producer/features/index.htm), which, among other dubious specs, sports the capability for a supposed 4 internal hard drives. In a laptop.

Liebermann is bunk. At best, they're rebadged, rebranded knockoffs of other products (Sager notebooks, etc...). At worst, their specs and product descriptions are completely fabricated. Their website design style is pretty nice, though...heh, however...I think I may have seen it somewhere before (http://www.apple.com).

Actually, looking over their store page, I think it might be possible. However, it requires a thick-ass notebook, and you have to spend $5400 to get the P4EE version. Incidentally, it weight 9.4 pounds without the battery or the "bay options."

Oh, and four HDs means no optical drive, period. They mange the optical trick by using a thick, thick case. You might want to take their performance stats with a grain of salt, too, since they not only get the G5 wrong, but also use only a single processor. Oy.

Ouch.

The top of the line system is $7056.

skinEman23
Apr 19, 2004, 03:09 AM
hmmm..... I think i'm going to buy the 12" PB. Hope it'll last me four years...

spinko
Apr 19, 2004, 03:14 AM
M9421LL/A PowerBook G4 (15.2"TFT/1.33GHz/256MB/60GB/DVD-ROM/CD-RW Combo drive/Gig Enet/56K/Bluetooth/AirPort)

256Mb RAM ? :D

skinEman23
Apr 19, 2004, 03:18 AM
I'd say that these updates are pretty good. If this new processor does as was rumored, the battery life should be much higher. Also, we may see bigger or faster hard drives in the 12" PB, as it has moved to 60gig standard. Well i better get some sleep so I can buy tomorrow.

aswitcher
Apr 19, 2004, 03:22 AM
2 simple reasons why this PB Upgrade is a bad deal:

Speed:
A G4 1.5 GHz is probably more than enough for most of us in 2004 - but the average lifespan of a laptop is 3 years, and therefor a now purchased laptop has to be able to run software that is released in 2005/2006. By then we're talking of OSX 10.5, fully 64bit, and probably lots of programs that need power.
E.g. the average Apple laptop in 2001 (3 years ago) had a G3/G4 of 500MHz. Have you ever tried running Keynote, iPhoto, iMovie or anything similar on such a laptop? Forget it. Even the Finder is slow as these old laptops don't even support Quartz Extreme.

Yeah, this has me worried. I don't NEED the speed now but in a few years and as my desktop replacement I can see my G4PB plummeting in value and usefulness in 2-3 years as most apps and the osx move across the 64 optimisation...



Screen Resolution:
SNIP
Additionally, a major part of Mac-users work in the creative industry (graphics, audio, video,...) and have higher needs than the average MS Office user. E.g. when designing the layout of a website, you need 1024x768 for its normal appearance plus space around it for all the Photoshop palettes. A width of 1280px is the absolute minimum, and everything else than convenient and satisfying.
As the rendering system of OSX (Quartz) is able to scale everything very well, OSX is better than XP for supporting higher screen resolutions. And as 1400x900 on a high quality 15" PC laptop is standard, why not on a Mac as well?


I now have faint hope that this release will see any improvement in the screens. I hope I am wrong. If as ThinkSecret indicate the 2 high end PBs are dropping in price, then I think its clear that they don't have much more to offer apart from a little speed boost and a slightly better graphics card...


Apple is not stupid, and they know these facts as well. The G5 PB might not be ready before september, and therefor Apple had to make a modest speed bump for its notebooks. Enough for the people who urgenty need a new laptop and resist to buy one with the specs of september '03, but introduced rather silent, holding off with all the new features of the G5 PB for a major release later this year.



If I KNEW it was September...I think I would wait, especially if I knew a bit more about the other features on the G5PB...

What to do :confused:

Tomaz
Apr 19, 2004, 03:25 AM
These updates look fine to me. And as I "predicted", there seems to be no 1.42 Ghz, but only 1.33 and 1.5 Ghz PBs, since the 1.42Ghz processor is not for laptops. Good news!! I shall order the 1.5Ghz 15" PB in a few hours!
Yiipeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee :D :D :D

Does anyone have an idea if it's worth to update from 64MB to 128MB videoram ??

oingoboingo
Apr 19, 2004, 03:31 AM
Honestly for someone like me I would still be rather happy with a G4 500Mhz book with a 14" screen, but then again I dont do heavy CPU intensive things, just iLife and web stuff.

If you're a serious iLife user, then I'd recommend as much CPU horsepower as you can get your hands on...iPhoto 4 is still a bit of a performance pig, and GarageBand is directly limited by the amount of CPU cycles available as to how many tracks you can play at once. I'd suggest you'd be quite limited on a 500MHz G4. I haven't used iDVD or iMovie enough to know, but rendering video effects in iMovie would suck up CPU time as well. I don't think iLife really sits in the same category of 'CPU-lite' apps as e-mail, word processing and web browsing...

skinEman23
Apr 19, 2004, 03:32 AM
Let me take a quick survery. How many hours do you think it'll be before the updates are up on apple's site?

Mokona
Apr 19, 2004, 03:41 AM
yeah, the best pc laptops are ibms, second to none. check out the t41p. nice, but expensive

btw, isnt ddr on g4s more of a marketing gimmick?

I got an IBM X31 a couple of months ago (subsidized by our school) with a Centrino 1.4 GHz, wireless Lan (802.11b), bluetooth, 40 GB hd, 256 MB of Ram... Yadayadayada... Anyway, concerning the build quality...

Several of my friends who got into the same deal says their cases are cracking up. I myself have not experienced this problem, instead the screws holding the case together are falling out! This can't be considered "good" in any way. Also, the measly 256 MB of memory that came with it isn't really enough. What I'm trying to get at is that it looks okay (oooh, IBM make great computers) but it doesn't really deliver. Sure, It was only $1200, but c'mon.

My old 15" pbook 667 (that I sold, it was simply too big to carry around) had so much more. Internal combo-drive, a graphics card that is a slap in the face of my IBM, and OS X. The OS is sooo much more important than what you're led to believe when looking at pure HW specs.


Footnote:
The people saying "why would you want a g5 laptop when the os isn't 64-bit?", think again. New G5 optimised software is becoming abundant (think Photoshop, FCPHD and a whole lot more). For people doing professional work on their Apple computers, the G5-optimisation is resulting in speed boosts, whether you like it or not. If a Powerbook would have a G5 it would aid graphics artists and video editing greatly. (of course, in its state of production your pbook could double as a hot plate, but that's a different issue)

Just my 2€. :)

gossas
Apr 19, 2004, 03:49 AM
Given
1: That all the Apple sites are now trumpeting their new software.

2: That a front-page banner on an Apple site lasts for several weeks.

3: That an earth-shattering hardware release would demand a complete publicity circus.

4: That the G4 is a little old as a base architecture and so it's legs are long enough and may not be able to be stretched any further.

Then the specifications guessed/quoted seem a reasonable set of figures with a few nice little tweaks that Apple may release quietly and softly one afternoon this week. Very much like the eMac revisions.

Doubtless there are many that have a desire for a portable with the power of the latest desktop machines, but considering the technical, financial and logistical feasibility of introducing a radical new portable now they may have to wait.

But the inside line is that a G6 set-top box is coming next Tuesday. ;)

ssnmx
Apr 19, 2004, 03:51 AM
1GHZ IS NOT ENOUGH. Apple needs to seriously go 64bit powerbooks real soon because this is just not fast enough in my mind. I mean they are great however to convert pc users to mac users is hard when they look at the hardware. I know I know, macs run faster than most pcs even though they have less processor speed however this is not noticeable to pc users. If we want to get a bigger market we need to orient to them- Come on Steve give us a mac that is truly the 25th aniversay mac! :)


25th?
Isn't this the 20th anniversary of the Mac?
I can't believe nobody noticed :p

Gyroscope
Apr 19, 2004, 03:53 AM
Offtopic

I think that eMac update last week and now PB/iB update this week also indicate imminent 1.5 ghz iMac update this week.

What do you think?

alexandero
Apr 19, 2004, 03:55 AM
If I KNEW it was September...I think I would wait, especially if I knew a bit more about the other features on the G5PB...

If you look at buyersguide.macrumors, you can see that the shortest cycle was 2 months, the most are 7 months, and the average across all Apple products was 9 months lately.

As todays update is a rather small one (modest speed bumps and price reductions), has come very late (why not in jan/feb? I know: Motorola) and as for the reason that a G4 1.5 MHz is approx as fast as a G5 1.0 GHz, making the best notebooks half as slow as the desktops, Apple will have major difficulties in selling these PBs. People who really need one will buy it, but the offer is not good enough to make people switch or update their 1-2yr old PB.

I guess that Apple was hoping to announce the G5 PB at WWDC, but 2-3 months ago they realized that they have to push back the release date by a couple of months (september 04?), as IBm is having troubles with the 90nm G5 production process and therefor released another modest update for the AluPBs.

In case I'm wrong, then the release date will be MWSF (jan '05), but then Apple will have major troubles with net income in 2004 - the notebooks make up 40% of their total sales, another 40% are (were) desktops (with a not selling iMac these days), and the rest are iPods (having a rather low margin per unit when summing up the r&d plus marketing costs for iPods *and* iTMS).

In other words, its a bad situation for Apple, and the stock price will reflect these problems in Q3 by latest.

gossas
Apr 19, 2004, 03:56 AM
Today even the cheapest PC notebooks come with a DVD burner.

Surely some mistake :confused:

spinko
Apr 19, 2004, 03:57 AM
Offtopic

I think that eMac update last week and now PB/iB update this week also indicate imminent 1.5 ghz iMac update this week.

What do you think?

I've stopped thinking.

gossas
Apr 19, 2004, 03:59 AM
I've stopped thinking.

I don't think I ever started.

mateybob
Apr 19, 2004, 04:01 AM
I got an IBM X31 a couple of months ago (subsidized by our school) with a Centrino 1.4 GHz, wireless Lan (802.11b), bluetooth, 40 GB hd, 256 MB of Ram... Yadayadayada... Anyway, concerning the build quality...

Several of my friends who got into the same deal says their cases are cracking up. I myself have not experienced this problem, instead the screws holding the case together are falling out! This can't be considered "good" in any way. Also, the measly 256 MB of memory that came with it isn't really enough. What I'm trying to get at is that it looks okay (oooh, IBM make great computers) but it doesn't really deliver. Sure, It was only $1200, but c'mon.


ive been using a IBM thinkpad for three and a half years now and never had any problems with it...

chasingapple
Apr 19, 2004, 04:04 AM
If you're a serious iLife user, then I'd recommend as much CPU horsepower as you can get your hands on...iPhoto 4 is still a bit of a performance pig, and GarageBand is directly limited by the amount of CPU cycles available as to how many tracks you can play at once. I'd suggest you'd be quite limited on a 500MHz G4. I haven't used iDVD or iMovie enough to know, but rendering video effects in iMovie would suck up CPU time as well. I don't think iLife really sits in the same category of 'CPU-lite' apps as e-mail, word processing and web browsing...

I dunno, iPhoto and iTunes are about all I use on a day to day basis, and I dont need it to be UBER faster like most, as long as it runs and im not waiting an hour for a picture to show im good, lol. But as you can see below in my sig my 2 Macs are more then up for the challenge of iLife, and I do so love Garageband. I can see GB tanking on a G4 500mhz :D

alexandero
Apr 19, 2004, 04:06 AM
If I KNEW it was September...I think I would wait, especially if I knew a bit more about the other features on the G5PB...

Oh, as for the features: don't expect any surprises (such as 3D-displays or a built in iSight camera), but expect a new, fresh case (look at the iPod Mini), 16:9 displays with higher resolution, upgraded ports (built in AE, Bluetooth, Firewire 800, USB2, DVI, whatever is new by that time, e.g. USB wireless?) in all models, a better graphics card, larger harddisks, faster superdrives, a better battery etc. plus a G5 (approx. 1.6-2.0 GHz) and maybe a 'convertible' model (I doubt it).

nubero
Apr 19, 2004, 04:09 AM
...but seriously, where are the backlit keyboard for the 12", where are the 128mb graphics cards? I don't think powerbooks should ship with anything but a minimum of 64mb graphics cards.

Right, right... waiting for backlit keyboard on the 12" as well. And the PB's really should have all 64MB minimum Graphics. Standart build in 128MB for the 17" and upgradeable to 128 for the 15"...

--- --- --- --- ---
My free Desktop Pictures!
http://homepage.mac.com/nuber

Palador
Apr 19, 2004, 04:09 AM
Updated eMacs, iBooks and Powerbooks are a nice start...

But lets not forget the G5 hasnt slipped into any of these models and lower speed (1.6Ghz and Im sure they ran some cooler/slower) G5 processors have been shipping since July of 2003. Not what I call progress. The Motorola G4 1.42 was widely available this same time last year and just now coming to the powerbooks. Honestly this isnt what I call progess. Low speed G5s have been out there for 9 months and high speed G4s they are sticking in these tings now have been around for over a year.

I dont know, Im just not excited about it at all. I still miss my Rev B PowerMac G5 that has yet to show up. Annoucing anything less than a dual 2.8Ghz at WWDC with some major new leaps like a PCI Express slot even if theres no card available for it yet, DDR2 or PC4000 to really take advantage of the 1GHz bus, dual optical drives, standard RAID, in a smaller... quieter tower........ Anything less than that would come as a huge disappointment. Lemme guess. 2.4GHz dualies with the exact same everything else as the current models. Whooopeddy-freaking-doo

spaceballl
Apr 19, 2004, 04:10 AM
Totally off topic, but i'm sick of people saying:

Apple won't have a 64bit OS until all computers are 64bit. I guarantee apple will just release an OS where the code will execute... and when it gets to a loop, it will branch, one set of code for 64bit CPUs, another for 32bit. The 64 bit one will execute after less CPU cycles, thus yield a faster OS, but the 32bit code will run just fine.

Another way apple could do it is just that when the machine installs, it only installs the 64bit optimizations on the 64bit computer.

-Kev

thehypercube
Apr 19, 2004, 04:14 AM
why doesn't apple post the hard drive speeds at apple.com/ibook? even under tech specs it isn't listed. are they all 4200rpm or is there a 5400 among them? i did a dummy config on a g4 800 ibook in the edu store... upgrade from 30gb to 40gb = $22. upgrade from 30gb to 60gb $67. i think that has been too much of a bottleneck for me on my current system and would get whichever of those drives was the fastest. if anyone can provide info, i'd appreciate it greatly. ordering as soon as the new books go up. i know about the 3rd party upgrade service, but would rather have it done by apple so as not to void applecare or anything.

skinEman23
Apr 19, 2004, 04:19 AM
why doesn't apple post the hard drive speeds at apple.com/ibook? even under tech specs it isn't listed. are they all 4200rpm or is there a 5400 among them? i did a dummy config on a g4 800 ibook in the edu store... upgrade from 30gb to 40gb = $22. upgrade from 30gb to 60gb $67. i think that has been too much of a bottleneck for me on my current system and would get whichever of those drives was the fastest. if anyone can provide info, i'd appreciate it greatly. ordering as soon as the new books go up. i know about the 3rd party upgrade service, but would rather have it done by apple so as not to void applecare or anything.

If you buy a third party hard drive and have apple install it, your applecare is not void.

rwbean
Apr 19, 2004, 04:22 AM
Apple Australia is notorious for pricing issues, it would seem. They're not a good comparison.

A direct comparison is possible with the IBM Thinkpad T41p - $US3219 and $A4899 for the exact same specs. Taking Australian GST of 10% into account, that's an exchange rate of 0.723. The $A is now about $US0.742. Compare this to my preferred 15" Powerbook with superdrive - current exchange rate of 0.596... :mad: No special pleading is necessary for apple - the only possible excuse could be volume of sales, and that won't cut it with me.

So if there aren't some MAJOR price drops for the powerbook in Oz tomorrow, I'll be getting the T41p. One of the best things about it is it comes with a 7200rpm hard drive + 128mb video standard, plus all the other features of the powerbook.

Palador
Apr 19, 2004, 04:23 AM
All the stock iBook and PowerBook have hard drives running at 4200 rpms... some of the Powerbook models can be upgraded to 5400 rpms as a build to order option on Apples store. However, it seems iBooks and the 12 PB cannot be upgraded with a faster HD. And it appears all Apple laptops 'out of the box' will have the slower 4200 hard drives

patriotn11
Apr 19, 2004, 04:29 AM
Wow, :eek:

I'm in US and I'm going for the same exact thoughts, only the T41 at this link for $2300.00 US.

Wow, what a thought, and I am too hoping for a good update as well because that would break my tie!

thatwendigo
Apr 19, 2004, 04:30 AM
Yeah, this has me worried. I don't NEED the speed now but in a few years and as my desktop replacement I can see my G4PB plummeting in value and usefulness in 2-3 years as most apps and the osx move across the 64 optimisation...

Any computer plummets after a few years, man. I couldn't have sold my iBook Tangerine for full price after three years. At purchase, it was $1599 and had 300mhz IBM 750 (revision A G3), 66mhz bus, 64MB of RAM, ATI Rage Mobilliy 4MB, a 12.1" inch LCD (800x600) , 6GB HD, a 24x CD, and it weighed 6.6 pounds. I updated the RAM to the max for the single slot (576MB), and added an Airport card, which let me run Jaguar acceptably and use wireless until its untimely demise.

In three years, the consumer laptop had leaped me terribly. For $1499, you could buy an iBook in mid-year 2002 that had a 700mhz IBM 750fx, 100mhz bus, 128MB RAM (upgradable to 640MB), ATI Rage Mobility 16MB, 12.1" SVGA LCD (1024x768), 30GB Ulta-ATA 66 HD, and a CD-DVD combo drive, weighing at a sleeker 4.9 pounds, and with another USB port and video out ports.

It was not only cheaper, but all around better. These kinds of things happen in computers, and no system you buy now will be guaranteed to weather the market that long, no matter who your ORM of choice is.

If I KNEW it was September...I think I would wait, especially if I knew a bit more about the other features on the G5PB...

What to do :confused:

I've already told you what I think you should do. Get a slightly older iBook off of eBay to play with. Learn OS X (not that it's hard, or anything :D ) and get used to things before you really, really jump in. When you're ready for the PowerBook, eBay off the iBook again and recoup most of what you put into the investment.

Meanwhile, you'll have a mac to play with! :cool:

What I'm trying to get at is that it looks okay (oooh, IBM make great computers) but it doesn't really deliver. Sure, It was only $1200, but c'mon.

Specifically, people usually mean the Thinkpad line when they talk about quality.

The OS is sooo much more important than what you're led to believe when looking at pure HW specs.

AMEN! :D

The people saying "why would you want a g5 laptop when the os isn't 64-bit?", think again. New G5 optimised software is becoming abundant (think Photoshop, FCPHD and a whole lot more). For people doing professional work on their Apple computers, the G5-optimisation is resulting in speed boosts, whether you like it or not. If a Powerbook would have a G5 it would aid graphics artists and video editing greatly. (of course, in its state of production your pbook could double as a hot plate, but that's a different issue)

People doing serious professional editing on a laptop are in a very strange market, and one where the processor is unlikely to even last through the lenghtier tasks on. Yes, you can get PC "desktop replacement" systems that are using the fastest processors around. They also last all of 45 minutes to an hour and a half, at the best. Good luck on compositing video or doing complex renders!

If you're doing things like that, the hardware support just isn't there yet in a true laptop. Yes, it's getting a bit faster on code optimizations, but those are going to be most pronounced on a system built to take advantage of them and with a steady power source (not to mention a less restrictive heat budget!).

patriotn11
Apr 19, 2004, 04:31 AM
Wow, :eek:

I'm in US and I'm going for the same exact thoughts, only the T41 at this link for $2300.00 US.

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=34-146-036&depa=0

this is what IBM has it for

ThinkPad T41 $2,649.00 IBM List Price Model Name: 23739EU


Wow, what a thought, and I am too hoping for a good update as well because that would break my tie!

PS: AUSSIE CUP, US or OZ................. :D

TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK OF THIS IBM MODEL FOR THE PRICE

23739EU

IBM Notebook ThinkPad T41 Pentium M 1.7Ghz, 14.1"TFT, ATI Mobility Radeon9000, 512MB, 60GB-7200, DVD/CDRW, 56K, GigabitLAN, WinXP Pro

TorbX
Apr 19, 2004, 04:42 AM
Well, at least I don't have to worry about my PowerBook being too far eclipsed by these new ones.

The fact that I don't have to worry about this is a bad thing, IMO.

My 12" rev a 867 MHz is getting quite obsolete these days... And I bought it a year ago, "new"... Darn salesman...

fatbarstard
Apr 19, 2004, 04:46 AM
Mee thinks this a typical 'refresh' before a big upgrade later in the year... once those pesky low power G5s get into decent production and the volume is available (after filling the G5 Xserve requirements) I think its all on for a G5 PB... new design, new architecture and new performance everything... :) :)

And becuase of the heat issues you won't see a G5 in anything less than a 17"pb... you think your knees are hot now!! All that heat he to go somewhere so i expect a pretty unique design to the innards of the PB to cope with this requirements - in fact that is probably the only thing that will hold a G5 PB back... what to do with all the damn heat so near to your delicates....

We will see in the summer when Steve makes his next big on stage appearance.....

rwbean
Apr 19, 2004, 04:47 AM
Wow, :eek:

I'm in US and I'm going for the same exact thoughts, only the T41 at this link for $2300.00 US.

IBM Notebook ThinkPad T41 Pentium M 1.7Ghz, 14.1"TFT, ATI Mobility Radeon9000, 512MB, 60GB-7200, DVD/CDRW, 56K, GigabitLAN, WinXP Pro

Hi there patriot, I've decided a DVD writer is kind of essential now, and I don't want to be left behind... once upon a time Powerbooks were the only notebooks with all the features (DVD writer + wireless 802.11a/b/g + bluetooth). Now there's competition. The other T41/T41p difference is the video card - I suppose it's mainly a gaming or video editing issue.

$2300 for that sounds great - I wish we had newegg in Australia! :rolleyes:

Aussie cup - were you referring to Flemington? Or is there some other event? :confused:

thatwendigo
Apr 19, 2004, 05:01 AM
TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK OF THIS IBM MODEL FOR THE PRICE

23739EU

IBM Notebook ThinkPad T41 Pentium M 1.7Ghz, 14.1"TFT, ATI Mobility Radeon9000, 512MB, 60GB-7200, DVD/CDRW, 56K, GigabitLAN, WinXP Pro

It's not a bad deal, really, and the Thinkpads are the laptops I have read the most good reveiws and heard the most word of mouth about, other than PowerBooks. I'd take the PowerBook, especially with a speed bump, over it.

After all, the current PowerBook at the same price level has a better graphics card, more HD, the same RAM, and OS X.

rdowns
Apr 19, 2004, 05:16 AM
Come on Steve give us a mac that is truly the 25th aniversay mac! :)

I'm sure he will. You only have 5 years to wait. Probably 6 until it ships.

johnnyjibbs
Apr 19, 2004, 05:19 AM
If these are right, they look good. The 12" iBook will be the same power as my 12" PowerBook. The 12" PB gets a good deal: upgrade to 60GB hard drives as standard, 33% more proceessing power (and presumably 167MHz bus) - maybe 64MB graphics? Also Aiport built in on the 12"?

chasingapple
Apr 19, 2004, 05:23 AM
Well I cannot wait until they show up at the Apple store, I want to see something new :)

Cheers to all that buy tomorrow, I know that buy a Mac feeling is AWESOME! 2 months in and I'm still feeling the new Mac owner feeling! My wife as well!

oingoboingo
Apr 19, 2004, 05:24 AM
I dunno, iPhoto and iTunes are about all I use on a day to day basis, and I dont need it to be UBER faster like most, as long as it runs and im not waiting an hour for a picture to show im good, lol. But as you can see below in my sig my 2 Macs are more then up for the challenge of iLife, and I do so love Garageband. I can see GB tanking on a G4 500mhz :D

Sorry, should have checked your signature :)

I wouldn't want to be using GarageBand on a 500MHz G4 either.

Bear
Apr 19, 2004, 05:28 AM
...

The iBook should be the G4 1.3 & 1.5 and PB's should be 1 & 1.3 Ghz G5. does that sound bad?Actually, yes, it does sound bad. That would mean the iBook would be effectively faster for a lot of applications.

If you want more detail on this, look at the benchmarks of the Powermac G4 Dual 1.42GHz against the Powermac G5 Dual 2.0GHz.

Bear
Apr 19, 2004, 05:30 AM
These updates look fine to me. And as I "predicted", there seems to be no 1.42 Ghz, but only 1.33 and 1.5 Ghz PBs, since the 1.42Ghz processor is not for laptops. Good news!! I shall order the 1.5Ghz 15" PB in a few hours!
Yiipeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee :D :D :D

Does anyone have an idea if it's worth to update from 64MB to 128MB videoram ??The new 1.5GHz processor should be cooler than the 1.42GHz that was used in the Powermacs.

As for the video ram. It will be helpful with Quartz Extreme and Expose. And also in cases where you are running dual monitor. If the price is reasnable, it'll be more than worth it.

pigwin32
Apr 19, 2004, 05:33 AM
As todays update is a rather small one (modest speed bumps and price reductions), has come very late (why not in jan/feb? I know: Motorola) and as for the reason that a G4 1.5 MHz is approx as fast as a G5 1.0 GHz, making the best notebooks half as slow as the desktops, Apple will have major difficulties in selling these PBs. People who really need one will buy it, but the offer is not good enough to make people switch or update their 1-2yr old PB.

snip

In case I'm wrong, then the release date will be MWSF (jan '05), but then Apple will have major troubles with net income in 2004 - the notebooks make up 40% of their total sales, another 40% are (were) desktops (with a not selling iMac these days), and the rest are iPods (having a rather low margin per unit when summing up the r&d plus marketing costs for iPods *and* iTMS).
I flat out don't believe your G4 1.5 == G5 1.0 claim but would be willing to capitulate if you can provide some evidence to support your claim. Each processor has different characteristics and will perform better/worse depending on the particular test.

Also, I understand Apple is very happy with PB sales and apart from disgruntled MacRumors PB geeks is likely to get continuing good sales from improved processor speeds and small price drops.

I will admit to believing that the G5 PB's weren't this far away. Right now I don't believe they are far away but Apple needed to do something while they ironed out remaining issues and IBM ramped up chip production. So what to do? Drop a pin-compatible slightly faster processor into the existing chassis, sweeten the deal with a price drop, and get everyone in the PB engineering team working overtime on the G5.

Personally a higher res screen would have tempted me to upgrade my 667 TiBook but I've concluded it just won't happen. It doesn't make sense for Apple to invest any more development in the current PB range.

A release date for the G5? I would punt on it being this year rather than next. Technology has moved on and the PB is no longer leading edge. Apple does need to re-establish the PB as an industry leader in both technology and design.

Bear
Apr 19, 2004, 05:33 AM
PowerBook G4 (15.2"TFT/1.5GHz /512MB/80GB/DVD-R/CD-RW SuperDrive/Gig Enet/56K/Bluetooth/AirPort Extreme/Backlit Keyboard) This sounds pretty good to me right now. I just wonder how fast the Superdrive is. I hope it's 4x, but wouldn't be upset if they had to limit it to 2x on DVD-R burns as long as 4x media burns at 2x and not 1x. 2x media is getting harder to find.

aswitcher
Apr 19, 2004, 05:36 AM
Oh, as for the features: don't expect any surprises (such as 3D-displays or a built in iSight camera), but expect a new, fresh case (look at the iPod Mini), 16:9 displays with higher resolution, upgraded ports (built in AE, Bluetooth, Firewire 800, USB2, DVI, whatever is new by that time, e.g. USB wireless?) in all models, a better graphics card, larger harddisks, faster superdrives, a better battery etc. plus a G5 (approx. 1.6-2.0 GHz) and maybe a 'convertible' model (I doubt it).

See its guestimate figures like this that make me worry a slightly buffed up 15 or 17 is going to look decidely old in just 5 months.

Not sure about 2GHz, but a 1.6Ghz G5 with 800MHz bus, 2 (maybe even 4) ram slots, better screen, better graphics card, better battery life, and a future using 64bit optomised code might well be worth the wait (risk)...

NicoMan
Apr 19, 2004, 05:38 AM
Let's get ready to rumble!!!!!!

singletrack
Apr 19, 2004, 05:38 AM
Down for updating...

Stof
Apr 19, 2004, 05:40 AM
Dutch online store is also down; probably all European stores.

johnnyjibbs
Apr 19, 2004, 05:42 AM
This sounds pretty good to me right now. I just wonder how fast the Superdrive is. I hope it's 4x, but wouldn't be upset if they had to limit it to 2x on DVD-R burns as long as 4x media burns at 2x and not 1x. 2x media is getting harder to find.
I've got a PowerBook 12" with 2x Superdrive. Contrary to what Apple says, Apple 4x DVD-R media burns at 2x in my drive, not 1x. I would definititely say that new PowerBooks will have 4x drives, with new PMs and iMacs having 8x to match the eMac.

rdowns
Apr 19, 2004, 05:42 AM
I really hope that they offer a superdrive for the iBooks as BTO. Today even the cheapest PC notebooks come with a DVD burner. Its a must ! For iBooks as well.
For all models !

Cheers

They probably won't. Their logic is if we offer it in an iBook, people won't buy the PB. So they think people wanting a SD will buy the PB. What they should consider is that they will buy another manufacturer's offering.

johnnyjibbs
Apr 19, 2004, 05:45 AM
Odd that the Euro stores are now down but the US is still functional. This must be for updates. Maybe Europe will be getting updates first? It is almost noon BST, afterall.

oingoboingo
Apr 19, 2004, 05:45 AM
In three years, the consumer laptop had leaped me terribly. For $1499, you could buy an iBook in mid-year 2002 that had a 700mhz IBM 750fx, 100mhz bus, 128MB RAM (upgradable to 640MB), ATI Rage Mobility 16MB, 12.1" SVGA LCD (1024x768), 30GB Ulta-ATA 66 HD, and a CD-DVD combo drive, weighing at a sleeker 4.9 pounds, and with another USB port and video out ports.

It was not only cheaper, but all around better. <snip>

All that, and the mid-2002 iBook no longer resembled a toilet seat either :)

But seriously, if these rumours are true, I'll be looking to trade my current 1GHz 12" combo drive PowerBook for the new (alleged) 1GHz 12" iBook. With any luck, the second-hand price of a Rev. B 12" PowerBook will have dropped to something still more than a new iBook, and I can pick up an iBook system of the same speed, effectively extend my warranty by 6 months, and pocket a few hundred bucks as part of the deal (the current Australian pricing is $2999 for a combo drive 1GHz 12" PowerBook, versus $1899 for the 800MHz 12" iBook...quite a difference).

Of course that's dependent on Rev. B 12" PowerBook prices not falling through the floor after tomorrow.

Bear
Apr 19, 2004, 05:45 AM
I've got a PowerBook 12" with 2x Superdrive. Contrary to what Apple says, Apple 4x DVD-R media burns at 2x in my drive, not 1x. I would definititely say that new PowerBooks will have 4x drives, with new PMs and iMacs having 8x to match the eMac.That's good. I have one of the older 2x Superdrives in a system that does burn 4x media at 1x.

RedEric
Apr 19, 2004, 05:46 AM
Odd that the Euro stores are now down but the US is still functional. This must be for updates. Maybe Europe will be getting updates first? It is almost noon BST, afterall.

It's so they can process all the huge price drops were gonna have cos the $ is weak :)

Bear
Apr 19, 2004, 05:48 AM
Odd that the Euro stores are now down but the US is still functional. This must be for updates. Maybe Europe will be getting updates first? It is almost noon BST, afterall.Actually I suspect, they took down the European stores to stem the number of orders for older systems.

What will probably happen is that the rest of the stores will get taken down as they have someone available to work on i and then everything will come up at about the same time.

johnnyjibbs
Apr 19, 2004, 05:50 AM
All that, and the mid-2002 iBook no longer resembled a toilet seat either :)

But seriously, if these rumours are true, I'll be looking to trade my current 1GHz 12" combo drive PowerBook for the new (alleged) 1GHz 12" iBook. With any luck, the second-hand price of a Rev. B 12" PowerBook will have dropped to something still more than a new iBook, and I can pick up an iBook system of the same speed, effectively extend my warranty by 6 months, and pocket a few hundred bucks as part of the deal (the current Australian pricing is $2999 for a combo drive 1GHz 12" PowerBook, versus $1899 for the 800MHz 12" iBook...quite a difference).

Of course that's dependent on Rev. B 12" PowerBook prices not falling through the floor after tomorrow.
Now that I have GarageBand, I could no longer survive without the audio in (iBook has none - unless they put it on for the update). Sure, I can buy an audio interface, but that's more ££€$$ and then I have latency issues to contend with too. I also like the DVI-spanning (remember, iBooks will only be VGA-spanning with the hack). And then there's my superdrive, etc., etc. The iBooks scratch far more easily and are bigger than the PBs too. Other things to consider...

aswitcher
Apr 19, 2004, 05:52 AM
Now that I have GarageBand, I could no longer survive without the audio in (iBook has none - unless they put it on for the update). Sure, I can buy an audio interface, but that's more ££€$$ and then I have latency issues to contend with too. I also like the DVI-spanning (remember, iBooks will only be VGA-spanning with the hack). And then there's my superdrive, etc., etc. The iBooks scratch far more easily and are bigger than the PBs too. Other things to consider...

Plus the 12" PBs are pretty cute :D

cronmedia
Apr 19, 2004, 05:59 AM
Here they come!!

German Apple Store is down:
http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/xyz122/store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/welcome.gif

Click... (http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/germanstore/)

Bear
Apr 19, 2004, 06:02 AM
Here they come!!

German applestore is down:
http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/xyz122/store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/welcome.gif

Click... (http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/germanstore/)All the Eoropean stores seem to be down already. We're just waiting for US, Canada and the various Asian stores to go down as well.

happo
Apr 19, 2004, 06:04 AM
Here they come!!

German applestore is down:
http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/xyz122/store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/welcome.gif

Click... (http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/germanstore/)

All European Stores down (except Belgium's and Switzerland's French alternatives). May be just video-software updates.

RedEric
Apr 19, 2004, 06:06 AM
All European Stores down (except Belgium's and Switzerland's French alternatives). May be just video-software updates.

It's books silly billy :p

singletrack
Apr 19, 2004, 06:06 AM
Now that I have GarageBand, I could no longer survive without the audio in (iBook has none - unless they put it on for the update). Sure, I can buy an audio interface, but that's more ££€$$ and then I have latency issues to contend with too.

I've not had that problem with an iMic on my old 500Mhz G3 iBook. There are a number of sources claiming you get better audio via with USB iMic input than from a regular audio-in. I couldn't say though not having both to compare. Lack of audio in isn't a big deal. Screen spanning without a hack or Bluetooth built in without a dongle is a bigger deal.

On the 12" the limiting factor is always going to be the 1 RAM slot for me unless 1GB SODIMMs come way down in price - unlikely for a while.

aswitcher
Apr 19, 2004, 06:11 AM
Any computer plummets after a few years, man. I couldn't have sold my iBook Tangerine for full price after three years. At purchase, it was $1599 and had 300mhz IBM 750 (revision A G3), 66mhz bus, 64MB of RAM, ATI Rage Mobilliy 4MB, a 12.1" inch LCD (800x600) , 6GB HD, a 24x CD, and it weighed 6.6 pounds. I updated the RAM to the max for the single slot (576MB), and added an Airport card, which let me run Jaguar acceptably and use wireless until its untimely demise.

In three years, the consumer laptop had leaped me terribly. For $1499, you could buy an iBook in mid-year 2002 that had a 700mhz IBM 750fx, 100mhz bus, 128MB RAM (upgradable to 640MB), ATI Rage Mobility 16MB, 12.1" SVGA LCD (1024x768), 30GB Ulta-ATA 66 HD, and a CD-DVD combo drive, weighing at a sleeker 4.9 pounds, and with another USB port and video out ports.

It was not only cheaper, but all around better. These kinds of things happen in computers, and no system you buy now will be guaranteed to weather the market that long, no matter who your ORM of choice is.



But buying a G4 is a move that makes sure that your computers lifetime is significantly more limited than a G5s is, ireespective of clockspeed. A G5PB running at 1.25GHz would in my mind have at least an extra year's life or more over a similiar G4, even if most things (not bus and ram) were the same. Waiting a few more months to get an extra year or more would be hard but in a year I would be very happy I had done it I think...



I've already told you what I think you should do. Get a slightly older iBook off of eBay to play with. Learn OS X (not that it's hard, or anything :D ) and get used to things before you really, really jump in. When you're ready for the PowerBook, eBay off the iBook again and recoup most of what you put into the investment.

Meanwhile, you'll have a mac to play with! :cool:


Yep, I have been giving that some thought. Indeed I have been half thinking that the new High end iBook or possibly the 12"PB might be a better choice because they are looking like they are peeking (I dont see a G5 in the 12" PB real soon) and half the cost of the 17"...

But I do want to catch dvds on it if I can...

Lets see what happens in the next hour...

Bear
Apr 19, 2004, 06:18 AM
But buying a G4 is a move that makes sure that your computers lifetime is significantly more limited than a G5s is, ireespective of clockspeed. A G5PB running at 1.25GHz would in my mind have at least an extra year's life or more over a similiar G4, even if most things (not bus and ram) were the same. Waiting a few more months to get an extra year or more would be hard but in a year I would be very happy I had done it I think...
...
If someone needs* a new computer, having it now is bette rthan waiting an unknown number of months. Maybe people who are waiting for a G5 Powerbook don't need a new laptop yet.

Also, grtting an extra year out of it comes partially from waiting several months to a year before you buy it. This again comes down to not necessarily needing a new laptop just yet.

*needs: Some people just wnat something new, some people actually need it. Need can be because some things won't run on their old laptop. Need could also be because their old laptop won't physically last much longer. In my case, strictly speaking, I don't need a new Powerbook just yet, I could upgrade the few components I need for what I us ethe Powerbook for. However, there upgrades will cost several hundred dollars. At this point, I'm better off buying a new laptop (with all the other improvements) amd selling my old one.

oingoboingo
Apr 19, 2004, 06:19 AM
Now that I have GarageBand, I could no longer survive without the audio in (iBook has none - unless they put it on for the update). Sure, I can buy an audio interface, but that's more ££€$$ and then I have latency issues to contend with too. I also like the DVI-spanning (remember, iBooks will only be VGA-spanning with the hack). And then there's my superdrive, etc., etc. The iBooks scratch far more easily and are bigger than the PBs too. Other things to consider...

Certainly all valid points. I originally went through the iBook vs. PowerBook decision making process in October last year, and if you check my signature, it'll be obvious I went for the PowerBook :)

However, when I bought the PowerBook I was working full-time in a decently paid biotech job, and I was able to get a good tax discount on the PowerBook through a salary sacrifice/packaging deal. However, now I'm back at university full-time doing a PhD and cash is a little tighter, so if these iBook update rumours are true, I'd prefer to trade off the desirable features of the PowerBook for the same processor speed in an iBook and a few hundred extra dollars in my back pocket (of course this all depends on what happens to Rev. B 12" PB eBay prices post-update).

My current 12" PB is the combo drive model, so the lack of a DVD burner in the iBook isn't an issue. The lack of audio-in is a bit of a bummer, but I usually use GarageBand on my G5 anyway. And for sure the PowerBook is a lot sexier looking, but at this stage if I can get the same level of performance out of a much cheaper notebook, then that sounds good for this particular poverty-bound postgrad student :)

iChan
Apr 19, 2004, 06:21 AM
I thought Panther was 64 bit.

nope

rwbean
Apr 19, 2004, 06:23 AM
if you're interested in latex or mathematica, pretty important for me:

http://www2.staff.fh-vorarlberg.ac.at/~ku/karl/timings50.html
http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/franz/latex-bench

but the powerbook has sex appeal, and that's difficult to measure ;)

OziMac
Apr 19, 2004, 06:24 AM
Hmm... wish there would be some more action on the US and Australian fronts - their lack of being down is disturbing...

I wonder how long after the announcement on the store these updates will be available? In other territories? The combo eMac is already available in Australia, but not the superdrive because of the QA issue that they haven't resolved yet or whatever - but how long for the books?

I am beginning to wonder if tonight's the night after all... ahhh! ;)

Whenever it will come, it will come :)

Bear
Apr 19, 2004, 06:25 AM
...

My current 12" PB is the combo drive model, so the lack of a DVD burner in the iBook isn't an issue. The lack of audio-in is a bit of a bummer, but I usually use GarageBand on my G5 anyway. And for sure the PowerBook is a lot sexier looking, but at this stage if I can get the same level of performance out of a much cheaper notebook, then that sounds good for this particular poverty-bound postgrad student :)Make sure the $$$ you will get from selling the Powerbook is really worth it. Remember to factor in the price from any custom configuration you need to do. And yes, expect your current powerbook to sell for less than the new 9when it's announced) 12" PB. Another factor might be a lack of an Airport card if you don't have one now. You may not get as many $$$s out of the deal as one would think. So it may not be worth it.

Also, the other factor is the weight. The iBook weighs more. (To some it's not a big deal. But it is something you should consider.

aswitcher
Apr 19, 2004, 06:26 AM
If someone needs* a new computer, having it now is bette rthan waiting an unknown number of months. Maybe people who are waiting for a G5 Powerbook don't need a new laptop yet.

Also, grtting an extra year out of it comes partially from waiting several months to a year before you buy it. This again comes down to not necessarily needing a new laptop just yet.



Basically I am on a Dell Desktop which is 4.5 years old and teetering... It still works (with the daily lock ups and crashes) and its gone a good 6 months longer than I expected it too.

I want portability, I want a Mac, I want something able to handle DV editing when I get around to that, as well as virtual PC for some of my apps. I want to be able to buy software and os upgrades in 3 years time and not cringe at their performance...which a G4 is much more likely to do than a G5...

But I done NEED it until this Dell finally collapses...

mvc
Apr 19, 2004, 06:26 AM
Hey, it's just the European site's down, maybe they are launching iTMS Europe instead! :rolleyes:

singletrack
Apr 19, 2004, 06:27 AM
But buying a G4 is a move that makes sure that your computers lifetime is significantly more limited than a G5s is, ireespective of clockspeed. A G5PB running at 1.25GHz would in my mind have at least an extra year's life or more over a similiar G4, even if most things (not bus and ram) were the same. Waiting a few more months to get an extra year or more would be hard but in a year I would be very happy I had done it I think...




Yep, I have been giving that some thought. Indeed I have been half thinking that the new High end iBook or possibly the 12"PB might be a better choice because they are looking like they are peeking (I dont see a G5 in the 12" PB real soon) and half the cost of the 17"...

But I do want to catch dvds on it if I can...

Lets see what happens in the next hour...

If you upgrade your software every year then perhaps that's true but just holding back a bit usually works fine. eg. I've a P166 Laptop that still runs Win98 as fast as the day I bought it. It does what I bought it for back then. It doesn't run some of the more memory hungry apps (only 64MB RAM) or games (only 2MB VRAM) but otherwise it's passable. The only problem I have with it (apart from Windows) is that I'd like to run iTunes on it but that doesn't run on 98.

On a Mac, recently, new OS and application upgrades have actually extended the life of old computers. eg. 10.3 runs faster on my iBook 500Mhz G3 than 10.2 and iPhoto v4 is leagues ahead compared to the previous version. The only thing that bites me now is RAM, hard disk size/speed and lack of VRAM (only 8MB so no Quartz Extreme). Even then, apart from the VRAM, those are easily sorted and I don't see why I couldn't use this iBook for another couple of years with the software I have on it now. It's also a damn site prettier than the new iBooks as it's translucent plastic and silver as opposed to that horrible cheap looking white plastic on the new models.

Saying that, I'll be in the queue for a 1.5Ghz G4 Powerbook when they come out as my needs have increased of late and I want a bigger screen. ;-)

aswitcher
Apr 19, 2004, 06:27 AM
Hmm... wish there would be some more action on the US and Australian fronts - their lack of being down is disturbing...

:)


OMG! The iBooks and Powerbooks are a ruse. Its actually the introduction of Europe iTunes Store!!! :eek:

aswitcher
Apr 19, 2004, 06:28 AM
Hey, it's just the European site's down, maybe they are launching iTMS Europe instead! :rolleyes:

Damn, you got me there by one minute... ;)

MacMyDay
Apr 19, 2004, 06:28 AM
Please, Jobs, our father in heaven, give us on this day our much needed PowerBook updates. I've been waiting 3 months to buy one.

mvc
Apr 19, 2004, 06:29 AM
OMG! The iBooks and Powerbooks are a ruse. Its actually the introduction of Europe iTunes Store!!! :eek: Beat you to it maaate, must be the southern hemisphere air!

Patmian212
Apr 19, 2004, 06:29 AM
Well if those updates predictions are correct i will be buying a new 12' Powerbook or 14' iBook TODAY!
I will also max out the RAM at crucial.
www.crucial.com (http://www.crucial.com)

cronmedia
Apr 19, 2004, 06:31 AM
OMG! The iBooks and Powerbooks are a ruse. Its actually the introduction of Europe iTunes Store!!! :eek:

lol :rolleyes:

MacMyDay
Apr 19, 2004, 06:32 AM
Well if those updates predictions are correct i will be buying a new 12' Powerbook or 14' iBook TODAY!
I will also max out the RAM at crucial.
www.crucial.com (http://www.crucial.com)

I got a 14" back in January, but really wasn't happy with the size of it compared to the 12" that I'm using now, so sent it back and thought I'd wait for the PowerBook updates instead. May just be me, but I didn't like the feel of it at all; not even the keyboard was particularly nice. Your choice, mind you.

Bear
Apr 19, 2004, 06:32 AM
Basically I am on a Dell Desktop which is 4.5 years old and teetering... It still works (with the daily lock ups and crashes) and its gone a good 6 months longer than I expected it too.

I want portability, I want a Mac, I want something able to handle DV editing when I get around to that, as well as virtual PC for some of my apps. I want to be able to buy software and os upgrades in 3 years time and not cringe at their performance...which a G4 is much more likely to do than a G5...

But I done NEED it until this Dell finally collapses...Lets see. the Powerbook G4 handles VirtualPC just fine, although it might depend on what apps you want to run. Also, the G4 is just fine for video editing. If you're doing heavy duty video editing, you're going to want a Powermac at some point. (For various reasons.)

Also, OS upgrades in 3 years will run just fine. Mac OS X is only speeding up with age. Heck, there are several things that sped up on 10.3 that were a pleasant surprise. As for applications, it depends on the people writing the paplications. It seems people have forgotten the fine art of writing software. However, this is a rant for another time and place. In short, you should be fine with most applications. The main issue will be brand new applications that may have code bloat. Oh did I mention that 10.3 also sped up various applications as well?

If you can wait, you don't need it just yet. If you can't wait (old system is falling apart) you may need to buy sooner.

RedEric
Apr 19, 2004, 06:32 AM
Hey, it's just the European site's down, maybe they are launching iTMS Europe instead! :rolleyes:

I'd be happy with that. It would be better than an update for the stuff announced at NAB yesterday. :(

LaMerVipere
Apr 19, 2004, 06:35 AM
Nothing yet! :(

I really hope we see some new stuff today! I would hate having to wait till tomorrow even though i know it wouldn't be THAT bad, but still. :rolleyes:

MacMyDay
Apr 19, 2004, 06:35 AM
I can't even load apple.com now. Maybe everyone refreshing the page so much caused the servers to collapse ;)

Bear
Apr 19, 2004, 06:36 AM
OMG! The iBooks and Powerbooks are a ruse. Its actually the introduction of Europe iTunes Store!!! :eek:Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if this happened on the 28th, that being the 1 year anniversary of the iTunes Music Store.

RedEric
Apr 19, 2004, 06:36 AM
We're finally getting the little guys.

Just in time for "The Wifes" Birthday :)

oingoboingo
Apr 19, 2004, 06:36 AM
Make sure the $$$ you will get from selling the Powerbook is really worth it. Remember to factor in the price from any custom configuration you need to do. And yes, expect your current powerbook to sell for less than the new 9when it's announced) 12" PB. Another factor might be a lack of an Airport card if you don't have one now. You may not get as many $$$s out of the deal as one would think. So it may not be worth it.

Also, the other factor is the weight. The iBook weighs more. (To some it's not a big deal. But it is something you should consider.

For sure...I'm only considering the PowerBook/iBook swap if it makes financial sense. We'll have to see what impact this update has on 12" PB prices...

klaus
Apr 19, 2004, 06:36 AM
I'd be happy with that. It would be better than an update for the stuff announced at NAB yesterday. :(

A lot of people will be thrilled with yesterday's upgrade, it's not because you don't feel the need to have pro-editing software and systems, nobody else does.

Yesterday was a great update for the pro video-editing users.

Torajima
Apr 19, 2004, 06:38 AM
In order:

The difference between 32 and 64 bit won't be felt by consumers for some time. The major difference is for professional applications and scientific usage, where huge chunks of RAM and certain kinds of math are more prevalent. Also, it doesn't so much speed things up as allow a greater efficiency in those kinds of calculations.

Spoken like someone who has never used a G5!
;)

Fact is, everyone will benefit from the G5. OSX is a resource hog, and on anything less than a single G5 or dual G4, the OS feels sluggish.

Besides, consumers can appreciate the extra speed the G5 allows with apps such as iMovie and Garageband. Adding transitions and other FX are a whopping thirty times faster on my G5 than they were on my G3.

RedEric
Apr 19, 2004, 06:39 AM
A lot of people will be thrilled with yesterday's upgrade, it's not because you don't feel the need to have pro-editing software and systems, nobody else does.

Yesterday was a great update for the pro video-editing users.

Well yes but considering I only give a s$%% about me then that's all that's important. :D :D :D

MacMyDay
Apr 19, 2004, 06:39 AM
Now they've just murdered the UK website: Did not receive any response from application. It is possible that the application does not exist, or that the requested url is incorrect.

Apple (http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/ukstore)

Bear
Apr 19, 2004, 06:43 AM
Spoken like someone who has never used a G5!
;)

Fact is, everyone will benefit from the G5. OSX is a resource hog, and on anything less than a single G5 or dual G4, the OS feels sluggish.

Besides, consumers can appreciate the extra speed the G5 allows with apps such as iMovie and Garageband. Adding transitions and other FX are a whopping thirty times faster on my G5 than they were on my G3.Spoken like someone who didn't compare the G3 to the G4. The transitions were speeded up by the addition of Altivec. G4s have altivec as well as the G5.

For the average user, the G5 won't be much better than the same speed G4. This has been proven in some benchmarks of the Dual 1.42GHz G4 versus the Dual 2GHz G5.

In truth I wouldn't mind a G5 powerbook, however, all things being equal (and they are fairly equal) not buying a G4 when one needs* a new machine is kinda stupid. Especially when the G5 is probably several months out.

Not to mention the OS X 10.3 is less resource needy than 10.2.x was. I expect more clenaups in 10.4 as well. So this is not really a valid argument for needing a G5.

*Needs: Defined in a previous post of mine in this thread.

gekko513
Apr 19, 2004, 06:43 AM
The norwegian apple store is down, too. I'm getting excited here. :D

rwbean
Apr 19, 2004, 06:44 AM
Now they've just murdered the UK website: Did not receive any response from application. It is possible that the application does not exist, or that the requested url is incorrect.

Apple (http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/ukstore)

aus store "murdered" too - http://store.apple.com/asia/WebObjects/AsiaLandingPad.woa/wa/initial?lpid=144541

The requested application was not found on this server

Bear
Apr 19, 2004, 06:45 AM
The norwegian apple store is down, too. I'm getting excited here. :DLast I checked, Norway is part of Europe and it was noted a while back that all the European stores were down.

Stof
Apr 19, 2004, 06:45 AM
Updates are getting closer: US Store is down!

ankit
Apr 19, 2004, 06:45 AM
Now the US store is down too! :)

mvc
Apr 19, 2004, 06:48 AM
For the average user, the G5 won't be much better than the same speed G4. This has been proven in some benchmarks of the Dual 1.42GHz G4 versus the Dual 2GHz G5…Not to mention the OS X 10.3 is less resource needy than 10.2.x was. I expect more clenaups in 10.4 as well. So this is not really a valid argument for needing a G5.

The main reason to buy a g5 rather than an G4 (all things like processor speed being equal as you say) is that buying the newer processor (if it were available) future proofs your investment for longer.

Just ask a Beige G3 owner :(

173080
Apr 19, 2004, 06:48 AM
The US Apple Store was down a minute ago and now it's back up with no updates? :confused:

EDIT: It's down again?!? :confused:

MacMyDay
Apr 19, 2004, 06:52 AM
You can tell everyone here is working hard at their job today :cool:

Reuven
Apr 19, 2004, 06:52 AM
All apple stores are down from UK to USA to Australia.

I will be a new user of macs when the new powerbooks come out.

This is the 1st time I have ever been excited over an apple ! :D

Bear
Apr 19, 2004, 06:52 AM
The main reason to buy a g5 rather than an G4 (all things like processor speed being equal as you say) is that buying the newer processor (if it were available) future proofs your investment for longer.

Just ask a Beige G3 owner :(If that is the persons main concern, then they pprobably don't need an updated laaptop right now.

If I were buying a Powermac, I would certainly go for the G5 since I don't need the OS 9 bootability that the Powermac G4 that Apple still sells is the only system you can buy from Apple that boots OS 9.

Future proofing is fine when the option is available. Some people do need a need laptop now, not some undefinable time in the future.

Griffindor73
Apr 19, 2004, 06:53 AM
UK store is down!

Bear
Apr 19, 2004, 06:54 AM
You can tell everyone here is working hard at their job today :cool:Since it is before the work day for most people in the US, I expect we'll be hard at work soon enough.

Especially if one needs to pay for a new purchase.

RedEric
Apr 19, 2004, 06:55 AM
UK store is down!

Yeah thanks...where were you an hour ago?

johnnyjibbs
Apr 19, 2004, 06:55 AM
Well, the UK store has been down now for more than an hour and they said it would be back up "within the hour". :D We're getting impatient!

Twisted T
Apr 19, 2004, 06:56 AM
Come on guys, I'm new here but have been lurking about the forums for a while!!

I'm really excited, I think we should all pray together....

Please Steve bring us our new Powerbooks!!!! :)

gekko513
Apr 19, 2004, 06:56 AM
Last I checked, Norway is part of Europe and it was noted a while back that all the European stores were down.
Didn't know you had checked all of them. People often seem to use the definition of Europe that suits them best in a particular situation. Sometimes England does not count themselves as part of Europe, sometimes people just refer to the EU and sometimes just to countries with Euro. The eastern europeasn countries also seem to be forgotten many times. It's not always easy to tell.

I'm sorry though. Didn't mean to steal any credit from you :). And I'm still excited by finding that norwegian store is down. And now they have replaced the error-message with a "We'll be back soon"!

denm316
Apr 19, 2004, 06:56 AM
US Store is down, Bring on my new 12 inch PowerBook

Griffindor73
Apr 19, 2004, 06:56 AM
Yeah thanks...where were you an hour ago?


Clearly not looking at the store, you sarcastic bugger! :)

MacMyDay
Apr 19, 2004, 06:57 AM
Well, the UK store has been down now for more than an hour and they said it would be back up "within the hour". :D We're getting impatient!

Damn right; we're British. We're not taught to wait at school.

Bear
Apr 19, 2004, 06:58 AM
Clearly not looking at the store, you sarcastic bugger! :)Nor apparently reading previous entries in this thread. :D

RedEric
Apr 19, 2004, 06:58 AM
Didn't know you had checked all of them. People often seem to use the definition of Europe that suits them best in a particular situation. Sometimes England does not count themselves as part of Europe, sometimes people just refer to the EU and sometimes just to countries with Euro the eastern europeasn countries also seem to be forgotten many times. It's not always easy to tell.

I'm sorry though. Didn't mean to steal any credit from you :). And I'm still excited by finding that norwegian store is down. And now they have replaced the error-message with a "We'll be back soon"!

England is NOT a part of Europe...please remember to vote Conservative everybody and then we can start our own continent.

Twisted T
Apr 19, 2004, 06:58 AM
****** I have to leave the house now, so probably won't know if the 'Books have been updated for a few hours!!

Damn :mad:

RedEric
Apr 19, 2004, 06:59 AM
Clearly not looking at the store, you sarcastic bugger! :)

:)

MacMyDay
Apr 19, 2004, 06:59 AM
Apple mock me with their messages. I just sat down to read a book but now find myself refreshing the page every 5 seconds on this forum and the Apple UK Store. This'll be the end of me.

Twisted T
Apr 19, 2004, 07:00 AM
England is a part of Europe, but Wales isn't is it???

Bear
Apr 19, 2004, 07:00 AM
England is NOT a part of Europe...please remember to vote Conservative everybody and then we can start our own continent.Is this so Wales can become its own country again? :p

The Welsh language doesn't have a shortage of vowels. They just use different vowels than English uses.

iLilana
Apr 19, 2004, 07:00 AM
we'll be back sign is there

CombatWombat
Apr 19, 2004, 07:01 AM
They better have upgraded the video card on the 12". I have a feeling they didn't but I hope to be wrong.
All I want is a 9600 64meg is that too much to ask.

RedEric
Apr 19, 2004, 07:01 AM
England is a part of Europe, but Wales isn't is it???

Wales thinks it's an independent state but as an Englishman suffering here, I yearn for dear old blighty.

MacMyDay
Apr 19, 2004, 07:02 AM
England is NOT a part of Europe...please remember to vote Conservative everybody and then we can start our own continent.

Ha; so true. But were you to vote Liberal, then we could all simply put on our sandels and relax about the entire issue....whilst sitting in our Cornwall cottage smoking cannabis.

RedEric
Apr 19, 2004, 07:04 AM
Ha; so true. But were you to vote Liberal, then we could all simply put on our sandels and relax about the entire issue....whilst sitting in our Cornwall cottage smoking cannabis.

Isn't it good when most Americans are asleep and unable to hijack our British/European Political debates. :p :p :p

ibook_g4_user
Apr 19, 2004, 07:05 AM
Additionally... one report claims that the 1.5GHz PowerBook will provide a Build To Order option to upgrade the 64MB of video graphics to 128MB.
bla bla bla.. what about the 17inch?

aussie_geek
Apr 19, 2004, 07:07 AM
hey all,

the australian store was off briefly for about 15 mins but is up again... :cool: :cool:

Dippo
Apr 19, 2004, 07:08 AM
Isn't it good when most Americans are asleep and unable to hijack our British/European Political debates. :p :p :p


We Americans never sleep.

Esp. when updates are on the way!

MacMyDay
Apr 19, 2004, 07:08 AM
Isn't it good when most Americans are asleep and unable to hijack our British/European Political debates. :p :p :p

What more can one ask for? Besides, if they were awake, they'd want to join the EU. It's only a matter of time, though. When Bill Gates buys his own country and joins the EU in hope of avoiding the legislations on monopolies. I'm sure this thread was about something computer related. Phft, what the hell. ;)

garybooberry
Apr 19, 2004, 07:08 AM
The US Store is totally down.

zuzu
Apr 19, 2004, 07:08 AM
Hi, the Spanish store is also down for an hour and a half...

Dippo
Apr 19, 2004, 07:08 AM
hey all,

the australian store was off briefly for about 15 mins but is up again... :cool: :cool:


No, it's still down...

aswitcher
Apr 19, 2004, 07:09 AM
hey all,

the australian store was off briefly for about 15 mins but is up again... :cool: :cool:


Not for me its not...?

alexandero
Apr 19, 2004, 07:09 AM
I flat out don't believe your G4 1.5 == G5 1.0 claim but would be willing to capitulate if you can provide some evidence to support your claim. Each processor has different characteristics and will perform better/worse depending on the particular test.

The CPU speed alone isn't everything, think of e.g. the bus speed which is much higher with the G5. As for G4 1.5 = G5 1.0, this might not be true today, but I bet on it in overall, running 10.4 and 64bit optimized software (Photoshop,...). Think of Quartz: when they introduced it, all graphic cards were more or less same fast. But with Quartz Extreme the newer graphic cards had a speed boost by 200-300%.


Right now I don't believe they are far away but Apple needed to do something while they ironed out remaining issues and IBM ramped up chip production. So what to do? Drop a pin-compatible slightly faster processor into the existing chassis, sweeten the deal with a price drop, and get everyone in the PB engineering team working overtime on the G5. (...) It doesn't make sense for Apple to invest any more development in the current PB range.

exactly.

Twisted T
Apr 19, 2004, 07:09 AM
Yeah, the Aus store is still ddown for me!!

BB1985
Apr 19, 2004, 07:09 AM
The Uk Store is down, says 1 hour???? :)

Griffindor73
Apr 19, 2004, 07:10 AM
Nor apparently reading previous entries in this thread. :D

O, you got me there! I just got excited! (How sad does that sound!)

Reuven
Apr 19, 2004, 07:10 AM
Not for me its not...?


Well justed vist and seems to me its down!

Dippo
Apr 19, 2004, 07:11 AM
I am betting that it won't come back up until 9am EST

thatwendigo
Apr 19, 2004, 07:11 AM
If that is the persons main concern, then they pprobably don't need an updated laaptop right now.

If I were buying a Powermac, I would certainly go for the G5 since I don't need the OS 9 bootability that the Powermac G4 that Apple still sells is the only system you can buy from Apple that boots OS 9.

Future proofing is fine when the option is available. Some people do need a need laptop now, not some undefinable time in the future.

Hey, uh, Bear?

I'm pretty sure that the poster you're responding to meant that they would prefer to invest in a chip that won't be technologically left behind sometime in the near future. With the G5 ramping up, the G4 will soon be a backburner or low-cost solution, rather than the main one. The reference to the beige G3 is probably one that is implying the relatively quick transition to new hardware in blue and white G3s, and then to G4s.

You sound like you're talking about legacy compatibility.

|_wise_|
Apr 19, 2004, 07:11 AM
au store is definately down

mkwilson68
Apr 19, 2004, 07:11 AM

MacMyDay
Apr 19, 2004, 07:12 AM
O, you got me there! I just got excited! (How sad does that sound!)

Not sad at all. Just put on some John Williams, something like the Star Wars soundtrack to get yourself in the true mood of it.

Bear
Apr 19, 2004, 07:12 AM
bla bla bla.. whitat about the 17inch?The 17" is also a 1.5GHz. The rumor on the possibility of BTO 128MB VRam didn't say it was a 15" only option.

kothrush
Apr 19, 2004, 07:14 AM
As of 7.14am CST, Apple store is down. So I guess the updates are on the way !! That is 5.14 am PST, wow seems like some one is working really hard at Apple.

.pixr
Apr 19, 2004, 07:16 AM
I am betting that it won't come back up until 9am EST

The Netherlands Apple store is down to..... keeping fingers crossed :D